<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2500</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/25/00 12:20:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2500<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Will to Win<BR>
re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
RE: acronyms<BR>
Re: Haven, etc.<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: Acronyms<BR>
RE: Unusual Battlefield Communications (was Military Mistakes)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (Re: The Will to Win)<BR>
Acronyms<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
Re: Haven, etc.<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Removing Legate Legion from the TML...<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:19:31 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 19:51 -0400 24/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Please can you attribute who you are responding to?<BR>
>    He was trying to flame Penguin Boy/Doug Berry.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks - I actually knew that, but none of his posts were attributed...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:01:52 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 21:50 -0400 24/5/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> > Coventry happened before Dresden.  It doesn't make it right, but it<BR>
> > makes it more understandable.<BR>
><BR>
>And Churchill knew about Coventry before hand.  This war stuff is awfully<BR>
>complex.<BR>
<BR>
But acting on that knowledge would have revealed that at least one of <BR>
the Enigma ciphers was broken.<BR>
<BR>
A hard decision to take.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:03:34 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
At 21:50 -0400 24/5/00, eris@pcola.gulf.netwrote:<BR>
>You have dozens of small cities along an enclosed sea with a very<BR>
>ragged coastline.  The cities make there living from trade, not<BR>
>only with each other, but with towns down the rivers that drain into<BR>
>the enclosed sea.<BR>
><BR>
>You have trade, piracy, poor navigation, storms, multiple ethnic<BR>
>and religions and all forms of politics to deal with.  There are<BR>
>dozens of small states and independent towns all fighting,<BR>
>competing, and intreging with with each other.<BR>
><BR>
>This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
<BR>
Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than <BR>
just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do <BR>
mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:15:30 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
>Note this came from a personal email.  I tried to take this off list, but<BR>
samwise1 seems to feel that personal mail is fair game.<<BR>
<BR>
I was answering very quickly and didn't notice.<BR>
No I do not consider it fair game. I made a mistake.<BR>
I fully apologize for doing so. I did not mean to and accept all the blame<BR>
for such an action.<BR>
I am sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:31:48 -0500<BR>
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: RE: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
* Hope This Helps<BR>
<BR>
* Hand-To-Hand (as in unarmed combat)<BR>
<BR>
* Head-To-Head (as in online gaming)<BR>
<BR>
* Heart-To-Heart (as in an open, honest discussion)<BR>
<BR>
Let's see, what else can I guess/make up here?<BR>
<BR>
* Hamburgers To Hotdogs (now that has to be a highly specialized mailing<BR>
list. :)<BR>
<BR>
Ummm, sorry, can't think of any more right now.<BR>
<BR>
Just Another Cr0.02, For What Its Worth,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, AIS Programmer IV<BR>
Texas Dept of Health<BR>
(512)458-7111 Ext. 3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax<BR>
.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Haven, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, bub!  How's it going?  I'm in Raleigh, NC for the week trying out<BR>
and training for a job.  I'm looking around at housing and churches and<BR>
stuff, too.  I miss my little fam-bly, but this is necessary stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Could you do me a favor?  If you have been following the game, the<BR>
Marine has been given a clue, but it not reacting to it.  Would you get<BR>
into character and suggest that Hastings go find the Marines attached<BR>
to the ship and see if he can get some info from them?  Lindi mentioned<BR>
not getting to cozy with the Navy people aboard, but the Marines are<BR>
fair game ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -Colin<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:27:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
> lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
> technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
<BR>
I think that you can produce a device called the "Infinite Improbability<BR>
Drive," which makes the usual jump drives obsolete.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:27:08 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>"The Shot Hear 'Round The World" wasn't a cultural icon until years later.<BR>
At the time, it was a minor skimirish.  The Alamo was a Texan thing, during<BR>
a time that they were independant.  The Maine was used by William Hearst to<BR>
whip up newspaper circulation.<<BR>
<BR>
I disagree on Lexington and Concord. They were a significant influence on<BR>
rallying American opinion during the War of Independence.<BR>
While the Alamo was a Texan thing, it showed a definite trend in American<BR>
thinking.<BR>
As for the Maine, the Spanish-American War was a creation of Hearst's. It<BR>
shows quite blatantly that an outrage can be used to drive the American<BR>
people to anything provided it is portrayed properly.<BR>
<BR>
>Yamamoto's comments came after he had learned that the Declaration of War<BR>
had not been delviered in time.<<BR>
<BR>
Yamamoto opposed the entire operation even before that.<BR>
<BR>
>The attack on Pearl crippled several drydocks, destroyed hundreds of<BR>
aircraft, and killed thousands of irreplacable navy NCOs and officers.<BR>
Strategically, it was devastating.  That's why Midway was so important, it<BR>
brough parity back to the Pacific theatre, along with giving the US Navy a<BR>
badly needly overwhelming victory.<<BR>
<BR>
The loss in men was overwhelmingly significant. The drydocks not<BR>
particularly given how few ships actually wound up needing repairs through<BR>
the whole Pacific war, the aircraft were mostly obsolete. Midway was<BR>
somewhat important but had it not occurred parity would have been regained<BR>
within a year or two anyway with new carrier production. The transfer of a<BR>
forward base would have been a more significant side effect.<BR>
<BR>
>Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<<BR>
<BR>
Which aren't related to the losses at Pearl Harbor.<BR>
<BR>
>True, but he understood Americans well enough to understand that the<BR>
failure to deliver the declaration in time would be used by the American<BR>
government to incite the American population into a fury.<<BR>
<BR>
See, this is where I keep getting confused. This is my point but you were<BR>
disagreeing with it.<BR>
<BR>
Was the morale effect of having an outrage to avenge more than equal<BR>
compensation for the loss of the men and material at Pearl Harbor or not?<BR>
Would then a less than ethical administration or general staff have allowed<BR>
such to occur?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:28:14 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
>seriously question if that anything associated with the RPGA<BR>
Living stuff will be better than pulling out my toe nails with pliers.<BR>
Go ahead and flame me, but I'm wearing a ring of flame immunity.<<BR>
<BR>
Seeing as how I not only know the people who wrote the new version but that<BR>
I'm also involved with developing material for the RPGA for Living Greyhawk<BR>
we will skip all the foul language and ranting and skip right to you being<BR>
incinerated., ring or no ring.<BR>
<BR>
>I was simply recommending the already-available book GH:The<BR>
Adventure Begins, as an overview of the current GH setting that<BR>
can be adapted for any game system because it is notably absent<BR>
and D&D rules and mechanics.  Almost pure content.  Compare<BR>
that to a currently non-existant book and guess which wins.<<BR>
<BR>
And I was simply recommending waiting a short time for a book that is due<BR>
out in less than three months and will be more complete and comprehensive.<BR>
Compare that to a rather mediocre effort and guess which wins.<BR>
<BR>
>Well if TSR/WOTC can't proofread their products better, why<BR>
would anyone think it is worth discussing, let alone mentioning,<BR>
given the frequent typo nature of email.<<BR>
<BR>
As opposed to the number of typos in GDW products for Traveller added to<BR>
differences in editions that make for discussion. here.<BR>
Right.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:43:00 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
At 12:28 -0400 25/5/00, Re: acronyms wrote:<BR>
>fnord.  Means this: You.. bj%JrJ5 r63eB((&Fnsbm  ...rdb ryy<BR>
>  chinese laundryo8wtb bb<BR>
><BR>
>NO CARRIER<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ahh... so fnord has something to do with the Pearl Harbour thread then?<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary<BR>
FWIW - for what it's worth<BR>
ISTR - I Seem To Recall<BR>
TTFN - Ta Ta For Now<BR>
RSN - Real Soon Now<BR>
Lotus - Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious (okay, so that's not a Traveller one)<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support aka BITS UK Limited<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:43:24 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, what-all acronyms can I remember, TML-specific and not...<BR>
<BR>
HAND = Have A Nice Day<BR>
YHBT = You Have Been Trolled<BR>
FWIW = For What It's Worth<BR>
BTW = By The Way<BR>
(I)MTU, YTU, OTU = (In) My, Your, Official Traveller Universe<BR>
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary (i.e. this works for me but might not work for <BR>
you)<BR>
TWIAVBP = The World Is A Very Big Place (i.e. you're working off an <BR>
assumption that holds true where you live but not necessarily true elsewhere)<BR>
OT = Off-Topic (I don't think I ever see OT used for On Topic)<BR>
(I)RL = (In) Real Life<BR>
LOL = Laughing Out Loud<BR>
ROFL = Rolling On Floor Laughing<BR>
C|N>K = Coffee (went through my) Nose (onto my) Keyboard <BR>
OTOH = On The Other Hand<BR>
OTGH = On The Gripping Hand<BR>
<BR>
...etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:50:13 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Unusual Battlefield Communications (was Military Mistakes)<BR>
<BR>
Doug G. writes:<BR>
>Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>Oh yeah, the Navy had trouble getting thru to Pearl on the radio so<BR>
>>they sent the warning via Western Union, and it wasn't marked urgent.<BR>
>>It was delivered to the base commander hours *after* the attack.<BR>
>Reminds me of the report during the Grenada deal back in the '80s where an <BR>
>infantry commander had to call in an airstrike to support his position by <BR>
>calling his military base back in the US using AT&T and a credit card.<BR>
>ObTrav: What other examples of "field expedient" communications might an <BR>
>Imperial military unit have to use in a tight situation?<BR>
<BR>
	I heard that British soldiers telephoned civilians in nearby towns<BR>
	for intel on enemy movements during the Fauklands conflict, but I<BR>
	don't know if this actually happened.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:40:57 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (Re: The Will to Win)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote;<BR>
>I don't know how much faster the invasions could have<BR>
taken place if the resources spent on the RAF's<BR>
bomber command and the 8th Air Force had been diverted<BR>
to preparing the amphibious assaults...I'm certain<BR>
that the assaults would have been much more strongly<BR>
opposed if the resources spent on strategic air<BR>
defense had been available to the builders of the<BR>
Atlantic Wall.<<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind though that the defenses would have been less complete because<BR>
of time as well. Further, just because you aren't engaging in strategic<BR>
bombing doesn't mean you aren't engaging in tactical bombing. What if<BR>
instead of bombing cities they had been bombing the engineers building the<BR>
Atlantic Wall?<BR>
<BR>
>For an ObTrav perspective, Strategic Bombing seems<BR>
to have gotten a reputation as a black war technique,<BR>
the kind of thing that (at the height of the 3I)<BR>
got the Imperium to intervene in a brush war.<BR>
Not that the Imperium doesn't use it, as the<BR>
communiques just after the 5th Frontier War show<BR>
(Sword Worlds complaining that deep-penetration<BR>
raiders had severely harmed their infrastructure).<<BR>
<BR>
I suppose it would depend on what your war goals are.<BR>
If it is conquest, then infrastructure raids are self defeating in the long<BR>
run. You are blowing stuff up you could use later on.<BR>
If it is to deny base from which to launch a future war, the question<BR>
becomes whether it is more reasonable to target existing weapons (ships)<BR>
rather than hypothetical ones (that could be built in a shipyard). Further,<BR>
targeting infrastructure also damages future relations with the civilian<BR>
population. People get upset at their ships being blown up but much more<BR>
upset by their *ahem* territory being blown up.<BR>
Compare historically, what upset the Germans more, losing their navy or<BR>
having chunks of their country taken away? What upset the French more,<BR>
Germany occupying their territory or the British blowing up their ships to<BR>
deny them being transferred to the Germans or Italians?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:55:22 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Squibb, where are you? :-)<BR>
<BR>
Stuart, for those who don't know, maintains the TML's FAQ page: <BR>
http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html<BR>
<BR>
Among other things, this includes a list of acronyms and common nicknames<BR>
(e.g., Rats&Cats, Gearhead, etc.) used on the TML.  I believe that the<BR>
following need to be added: <BR>
<BR>
AFAIK: As far as I know<BR>
HTH: Hand-to-hand or "Hope this helps"<BR>
ISTR: I seem to recall<BR>
LLP:  Lilliputian Lust Puppet (oh wait, that's not from the TML...sorry)<BR>
<BR>
The FAQ also includes rules for etiquette (which quite a few people oughta<BR>
stop by and read) as well as some nice suggestions on how to quote<BR>
articles (e.g., there's no need to quote the whole friggin' thing just to<BR>
reply to one point!).  In the interests of a better TML, I encourage<BR>
everyone to drop by and check the page out.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:42:33 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
> > Welcome to the list!  If I may offer some advice: MIME makes a<BR>
> > mess in the digest version of the TML, using plain text is much<BR>
> > better.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > :)<BR>
> > Peez<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry about that. I'm not doing it deliberately. I'm using Outlook Express<BR>
> can anyone advise as how to 'unMIME' or whatever.<BR>
><BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
In OE5 it's:<BR>
Tools\Options<BR>
<BR>
Click on the 'Send' tab, then the 'Plain Text' radio button under 'Mail<BR>
Sending Format'<BR>
<BR>
Then click on the 'Plain Text Settings' button and make sure 'Encode Text<BR>
Using' is set to 'None'<BR>
<BR>
Other versions of OE may vary slightly, but they all have an option to send<BR>
as plain text. Unfortunately HTML is the default...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:59:20 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
At 10:25 AM -0700 5/24/00, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>This is the canonical explanation.  It just happens to be completely <BR>
>wrong.  A half-life of X seconds doesn't mean that particles decay <BR>
>in X seconds -- it means that particles decay exponentially over a <BR>
>period, with a decay curve such that half will have decayed after X <BR>
>seconds.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
OTOH, since they have nuclear damper technology, they have<BR>
the ability to control the rate of nuclear processes.  It isn't too<BR>
far fetched to presume that some technology exists that allows<BR>
one to get the mesons to decay at some distance from the gun<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:06:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
David P. Summers writes:<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, since they have nuclear damper technology, they have<BR>
> the ability to control the rate of nuclear processes.  It isn't too<BR>
> far fetched to presume that some technology exists that allows<BR>
> one to get the mesons to decay at some distance from the gun<BR>
<BR>
Yup.  I have no problem with there being a handwave which permits meson guns to work, its just that the handwave which has been given is unsuitable (it would also help if mesons actually _were_ non-interacting particles.  I'm pretty sure mesons interact with the strong force, which means they don't have any better penetration than neutrons).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:06:44 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
> Now to the important content.<BR>
> <BR>
> Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
<BR>
Sure.  As a Solomani, I'll believe anything that puts them in a bad light.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2. Detail in your best effort your favorite Recipe for Barbecued K'Kree.<BR>
<BR>
Zap them with a laser turret and select any pieces that don't look too<BR>
charred to eat.<BR>
> <BR>
> 3. The plausibility of Piracy in the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
Given how much work they provide for the Navy, I think the Navy would<BR>
secretly fund them if they couldn't support themselves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:07:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Haven, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Well!  That should do the trick!  Sorry folks.  Emailing away from home<BR>
is a bit too challenging for me! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:06:26 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote;<BR>
>For a regular infantry battle, creativity isn't that much required. Just<BR>
give the robot a database with _a_lot_ of different solutions for<BR>
certain problems, for not letting them be too foreseeable, and then<BR>
fight quality with quantity (you can be a great tactictian and lose<BR>
against an enemy who has no problem with "dying" in defeating you -if<BR>
necessary(ten dog-sized milibots are better than one man-sized "creative<BR>
mind in battle dress")).<<BR>
<BR>
While suicide troops have a very definite advantage, I think unrestricted<BR>
human creativity would find a way around even significantly overwhelming<BR>
numbers.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, inter-unit-communication can be much<BR>
faster (not as seen at SW:Episode I, where the Droids actually *talked*<BR>
to each other)and it is not necessary for every "soldier" to have the<BR>
same intelligence as a sophont. The IQ of a dog would be more than<BR>
required, with a few armoured "think tanks" with larger brains (plus<BR>
perhaps a sophont operator) in the second line. Even substracting a<BR>
dog's creaticity wouldn't hurt- possible be even usefull unless your<BR>
enemy can cut off communication. But how do this with a meson<BR>
communication system? Meson screens over the entire area?<<BR>
<BR>
That would mean putting meson communicators in every robot. Your unit price<BR>
just went through the roof with that.<BR>
As for using sophont controllers that means you aren't really using robots.<BR>
(At least IMO.)<BR>
<BR>
>You could bomb the area then. And still, a large group of non-creative, but<BR>
"experienced" dog-minds with gauss rifles would be a match for some Army<BR>
men I know... but I am ex-Navy, so forget what I just wrote...:-)<<BR>
<BR>
I will not jump into that debate.<BR>
<BR>
>Most military situations are more or less standard problems, requiring<BR>
slight modification of existing tactics. You do not need to be creative<BR>
for this. (Though I admit that with new technolgy on either side, this<BR>
is fals. But OTOTH, that is not _that_ common in OTU.)<<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. I think the introduction of intelligence adds a constant<BR>
variable to any encounter and making creativity almost mandatory for<BR>
victory. Unless of course tactical innovation as a whole has ground to a<BR>
complete halt. But then you have powder keg situation where one new idea<BR>
will radically alter the field of battle.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, I guess it, but just to be sure: What are "Luddites"?<<BR>
<BR>
Anti-tech types who want to do away with some to all machines depending on<BR>
degree of commitment/fanaticism. This could be anywhere from saying no<BR>
robots to no computers to no power looms to no plows.<BR>
<BR>
>And where do the Solomani draw the line between a robot and an automized<BR>
industrial facility (or a part of it)? Sounds as if they were damned to<BR>
lose any economical competition with the 3I, the Hivers _and_ the Aslan<BR>
clans at their border. Not to speak of the military...<<BR>
<BR>
Different lines depending on beliefs. Check the AM or Cats&Rats or Aliens of<BR>
the Rim for examples.<BR>
As for damned, *shrug* that is how some people are even today. The Fteirle<BR>
won't use robots if their enemies don't have them and obey other Fteirle<BR>
rules of war. The 3I doesn't make massive use of military robots. The Hivers<BR>
do. I suppose that is why you constantly hear about Solomani provocations<BR>
directed towards the first two and not the last.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:12:17 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Removing Legate Legion from the TML...<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000 14:22:53 +0200, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I apologize beforehand for contributing to this thread, but I absolutely<BR>
> cannot let this pass by without comment. :-(<BR>
> <BR>
> Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Look, boy (as you do not like to be called son, & you sure as hell are not a<BR>
> > man), the first thing you have to learn is that no one, but no one calls<BR>
> > anyone on this ML a moron, but me.<BR>
> <BR>
> Wrong. No one calls anyone on this ML a moron. Period.<BR>
<BR>
Really!?!  Legate Legion *really* said that?  I wouldn't know, since I<BR>
kill-filed him a long, *long* time ago.<BR>
<BR>
If he did, could someone *please* remove this megalomaniac from this<BR>
mailing list?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Wisdom is knowing what to do with what you know.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:45:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: tim@premier.net <tim@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<< I am glade you learning not to raise to flame bait.  But next time can<BR>
you save us from these curse words and personal attack on the ML.   You<BR>
write good Traveller stuff from what I have read, so do the same with other<BR>
post.  The key here is to act like an adult not just to claim you are one, I<BR>
think you are understanding this.  : )<BR>
<BR>
Now Samwise I realize you just got slammed but take it off the list, Spam<BR>
Legate at home or anything legal but dont make the rest of us suffer through<BR>
a reply.  Like I told Legate act like an adult instead of just saying you<BR>
are one.<BR>
<BR>
Another words both of you chill or take it off the list. >><BR>
<BR>
Tim (the Enchanter);<BR>
<BR>
    It will be kinda hard for Samwise to spam me, as everything he sends to<BR>
me will be kill filed, or deleted before I even see it.  I have gotten in<BR>
touch with my ISP & they are soon going to be automatically deleting<BR>
anything Samwise sends to me, before it even reaches me.<BR>
    As for the curse words, well I do use common standard english, yet the<BR>
vulgar form, so that Samwise would be able to understand me, as all he seems<BR>
to understand is the vulgar form.  I am sorry about how I had to get my<BR>
message to him, but then again, I know others feel the same way I do.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:47:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Douglas E. Berry wrote;<BR>
><BR>
>Note this came from a personal email.  I tried to take this off list, but<BR>
>samwise1 seems to feel that personal mail is fair game.<BR>
><BR>
>Also, he has gone clif faster than clif did.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Penguin Boy,<BR>
<BR>
    You & I have had our little differences, but nothing like what Samwise<BR>
did, I am sorry that you had to read me venting my spleen on him.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:51:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>> >Please can you attribute who you are responding to?<BR>
>>    He was trying to flame Penguin Boy/Doug Berry.<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks - I actually knew that, but none of his posts were attributed...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    NP, Dom.  Btw, when are you going to kick in your .02 Cr. on Trade<BR>
Coastals/Trade Cartels?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2500<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (rly-zc04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.4]) by air-zc02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:20:44 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:20:06 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA76889;<BR>
	Thu, 25 May 2000 15:18:09 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 25 May 2000 15:17:59 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA76810<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:17:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:17:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005251917.PAA76810@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2500<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2501</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/25/00 1:36:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2501<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
VaMaBoTraTe -one less (was:Re: Mesoncannons)<BR>
re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Messoncannons<BR>
Re: Messoncannons<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics > <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:00:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than <BR>
>just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do <BR>
>mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Sorry, Dom, I did not know you had replied to this thread.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:56:54 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 05:38 PM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> >what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> <BR>
> AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
Something like<BR>
<BR>
"I really want this to be of aid for you" or so...<BR>
<BR>
HTH<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:01:55 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Finallly: An idea for a pocket Empire beyond Imperial space: A class 2<BR>
> > gouvernment of a few thousand sophonts, running an entire TTL12/GTL 10<BR>
> > empire (a dozen worlds or so) with Robots. Robots in the Navy, robots<BR>
> > ine Army, robots everywhere. Not too smart, these machines, but they are<BR>
> > capable of doing their specific jobs. As long as there is no external<BR>
> > threat, this could expand to a quite large structure, with groups of<BR>
> > worlds without any sophont being visting for decades...<BR>
> Well, consider Sabmiqys (2117 Antares).  Only a single world, but I believe its supposed to be a robot society (listed population is, incidentally, a total of 5).<BR>
<BR>
Was this the "robots at TTL17" world?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:06:32 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
> > lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
> > technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
> <BR>
> I think that you can produce a device called the "Infinite Improbability<BR>
> Drive," which makes the usual jump drives obsolete.<BR>
<BR>
Ha-ha! <BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
No, seriously, beyond nuclear damping technology, what would this lead<BR>
to? It's just that I can't see it right now...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:13:54 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: VaMaBoTraTe -one less (was:Re: Mesoncannons)<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> So, here's my two cents on meson can(n)ons...<BR>
> <BR>
> As ususal, we have to bring the Various Magic Bits of Traveller<BR>
> technology (VMBoTT) into the picture:<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> and finally,<BR>
>  (e) jump technology, which does who-knows-what.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there's a theory at Freelance Traveller... <BR>
:-)<BR>
SCNR <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:24:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
>Bear in mind though that the defenses would have been less complete because<BR>
of time as well. Further, just because you aren't engaging in strategic<BR>
bombing doesn't mean you aren't engaging in tactical bombing. What if<BR>
instead of bombing cities they had been bombing the engineers building the<BR>
Atlantic Wall?>>>><BR>
<BR>
A couple of things:<BR>
<BR>
1. Most bombers used in the strategic bombing raids<BR>
were *flown* to England.  Most men and equipment<BR>
needed for the amphibious assaults needed to be<BR>
*shipped* to England.  The 8th Air Force was ready<BR>
for action long before the American (or British)<BR>
armies were ready for Normandy.<BR>
<BR>
2. The Atlantic Wall was already being built as<BR>
fortified positions.  By conducting a strategic<BR>
bombing campaign, the Germans were forced to<BR>
"fortify" (with AAA, air raid shelters, dispersed<BR>
factories, underground manufacturing plants, etc.)<BR>
their whole country. They even had to fortify - and<BR>
this is critically important - *areas that were<BR>
never bombed*.<BR>
<BR>
If the enemy fears your bombing raids and puts<BR>
anti-aircraft guns everywhere, then even more of<BR>
his resources are expended.  A weapon placed where<BR>
it never gets anything to shoot at is almost as good<BR>
to you as a weapon you manage to destroy.<BR>
<BR>
3. American industry already had a portion of it's<BR>
factories dedicated to long range bomber production.<BR>
The B-17's "Flying Fortress" title didn't refer to<BR>
any advantage in armor or weaponry, it referred to<BR>
the task it was designed for: blowing up invasion<BR>
fleets while such fleets were crossing the Atlantic<BR>
or Pacific, making an unassailable fortress out of<BR>
the North American continent.  It would have been<BR>
significantly expensive to turn such production<BR>
towards other equipment, potentially even taking<BR>
these factories out of production for the rest of<BR>
the war.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:29:13 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
> If psi isn't limited by lightspeed, it would theoretically be possible to<BR>
> set up a chain of deep space bases staffed by telepaths, giving you almost<BR>
> instantaneous communication, and we wouldn't want *that* :)<BR>
<BR>
With the range limitation it would take a *huge* number of such bases and<BR>
telepaths of very high talent, which there aren't very many of.  But I'm sure<BR>
the Zhos have tried :)<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
<BR>
I'm just here to play the game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:31:36 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, I have always viewed Satanists as just another christian sect.<BR>
<BR>
Not really. Christianity, in all of the forms I can think of, is<BR>
characterized by a belief in the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Although<BR>
there have been many variations on this central tenet, and many of these<BR>
variations have little in common with each other in practice, the notion<BR>
that one can receive or attain fulfillment in Christ is a defining<BR>
characteristic of Christianity. If someone doesn't believe in the saving<BR>
grace of Christ, then they can't really be called a Christian. Since<BR>
Satanism was characterized in the middle ages (whether it actually existed<BR>
as such) as a complete inversion of Christianity in which fulfillment could<BR>
be received from Satan, this would preclude them from being Christians.<BR>
Since modern Satanism is characterized by dressed up "social Darwinism" and<BR>
a celebration of selfishness, this would preclude them from being<BR>
Christians.<BR>
<BR>
Christianity is not a heading under which a bunch of various deities and<BR>
devils fall which can then be picked. The name alone should suggest that<BR>
there is a focal point.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:38:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?=<BR>
<Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
<BR>
>> Stinging nettles. <BR>
>Does anyone know if this is the plant known in finnis as<BR>
>"nokkonen"?<BR>
<BR>
Valitettavasti sanakirjani ei ole toimistossa.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:51:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> While suicide troops have a very definite advantage, I think unrestricted<BR>
> human creativity would find a way around even significantly overwhelming<BR>
> numbers.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, suicide troops aren't all that useful in many situations (troops who never have morale failures is a separate issue).  There are a lot of tactical situations which aren't terribly subject to creativity on the short term, or where one human per 10 warbots is good enough.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:58:13 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Radar went both ways. The US finally had to send over a <BR>
>couple of people when the Brit radar experts were going <BR>
>*nuts* trying to duplicate the magnetron tubes the US had <BR>
>invented. <BR>
<BR>
This reminds me of a conversation I had this morning with<BR>
my girlfriend's 14-year-old daughter about cooking.  It<BR>
seems that when she follows recipes they never turn out.  I<BR>
suggested that the reason is a lack of experience in the<BR>
kitchen that will someday allow her to fill in the gaps<BR>
left by the recipes.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:00:13 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
<Anthony Jackson><BR>
unsuitable (it would also help if mesons actually _were_ non-interacting<BR>
particles.  I'm pretty sure mesons interact with the strong force, which<BR>
means they don't have any better penetration than neutrons). <BR>
</Anthony Jackson><BR>
<BR>
ISTR that somebody posted a response they got from a particle physicist<BR>
about this question.  The upshot (IIRC) was that mesons would have better<BR>
penetration than neutrons but not the kind of abilities attributed to them<BR>
in Traveller (e.g., being able to shoot through kilometers of rock).  The<BR>
ability to get through starship hulls seemed okay from my reading of it,<BR>
though.<BR>
<BR>
On a related note, I want to discuss this neutrino-antineutrino gun that<BR>
somebody brought up (sorry, don't recall who).  Neutrinos would be able to<BR>
penetrate the way mesons are supposed to, but would you get much bang out<BR>
of anihilating neutrinos?  Considering they have no (or virtually no)<BR>
mass, I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
[...hiatus...]<BR>
<BR>
Well, look at that!  I did a search for neutrino and antineutrino on<BR>
altavista and came across an interesting discussion of what happens when<BR>
they collide (http://superstringtheory.com/wwwboard/intros/359.html). The<BR>
problem appears to be that we don't yet know whether neutrinos have rest<BR>
mass.  If they do, then collisions between them may emit photons.  Thus<BR>
the neutrino-antineutino gun might work.  <BR>
<BR>
I wonder if the low interaction probability makes this all moot, though. <BR>
Would the neutrinos simply fail to interact with one another anyway?  Or<BR>
could you force them to interact by directing them with sufficient<BR>
accuracy (or something like that).  Hmm, I smell problems with Heisenberg<BR>
uncertainty, but I stepped way beyond my knowledge of physics a while<BR>
back, so I'll just stop now. <BR>
<BR>
Nope, one last thing: neutrinos/antineutrinos presumably have opposite<BR>
charges.  Would this cause them to attract and raise interaction<BR>
likelihood?  Okay, NOW I'm done...<BR>
<BR>
Charles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
<BR>
> On a related note, I want to discuss this neutrino-antineutrino gun that<BR>
> somebody brought up (sorry, don't recall who).  Neutrinos would be able to<BR>
> penetrate the way mesons are supposed to, but would you get much bang out<BR>
> of anihilating neutrinos?  Considering they have no (or virtually no)<BR>
> mass, I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that a beam of neutrinos and antineutrinos would pass right through each other without interacting significantly.<BR>
<BR>
> Nope, one last thing: neutrinos/antineutrinos presumably have opposite<BR>
> charges.  Would this cause them to attract and raise interaction<BR>
> likelihood?  Okay, NOW I'm done...<BR>
<BR>
Neutrinos are neutral leptons, and uncharged.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:34:14 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote;<BR>
> >For a regular infantry battle, creativity isn't that much required. Just<BR>
> give the robot a database with _a_lot_ of different solutions for<BR>
> certain problems, for not letting them be too foreseeable, and then<BR>
> fight quality with quantity (you can be a great tactictian and lose<BR>
> against an enemy who has no problem with "dying" in defeating you -if<BR>
> necessary(ten dog-sized milibots are better than one man-sized "creative<BR>
> mind in battle dress")).<<BR>
> <BR>
> While suicide troops have a very definite advantage, I think unrestricted<BR>
> human creativity would find a way around even significantly overwhelming<BR>
> numbers.<BR>
<BR>
Such as...? IMHO, firepower is firepower. You can use surprise, good<BR>
terrain, additional equipment and the like to modify your and your<BR>
opponent's effective firepower, but finally, it comes to comparing the<BR>
"numbers".<BR>
Ten hits here, one hit there, guess who wins. Use of surprise may<BR>
effectively reduce the enemy's initial firepower, but one hit cannot<BR>
possibly kill ten targets, And then, finally, the superior enemy fires<BR>
back. The result would be hit-and-run tactics, which is a fairly known<BR>
concept, even to, I'd say, Milbot programmers...<BR>
<BR>
> >Also, inter-unit-communication can be much<BR>
> faster (not as seen at SW:Episode I, where the Droids actually *talked*<BR>
> to each other)and it is not necessary for every "soldier" to have the<BR>
> same intelligence as a sophont. The IQ of a dog would be more than<BR>
> required, with a few armoured "think tanks" with larger brains (plus<BR>
> perhaps a sophont operator) in the second line. Even substracting a<BR>
> dog's creaticity wouldn't hurt- possible be even usefull unless your<BR>
> enemy can cut off communication. But how do this with a meson<BR>
> communication system? Meson screens over the entire area?<<BR>
> <BR>
> That would mean putting meson communicators in every robot. Your unit price<BR>
> just went through the roof with that.<BR>
<BR>
Oops. Right. And most other comm sets can be jammed...<BR>
<BR>
> As for using sophont controllers that means you aren't really using robots.<BR>
> (At least IMO.)<BR>
<BR>
Well, you use sophont officers, but robot "regulars". That was what I<BR>
meant.<BR>
 <BR>
> >You could bomb the area then. And still, a large group of non-creative, but<BR>
> "experienced" dog-minds with gauss rifles would be a match for some Army<BR>
> men I know... but I am ex-Navy, so forget what I just wrote...:-)<<BR>
> <BR>
> I will not jump into that debate.<BR>
<BR>
:-) Wasn't intended to start a debate. Just a joke.<BR>
 <BR>
> >Most military situations are more or less standard problems, requiring<BR>
> slight modification of existing tactics. You do not need to be creative<BR>
> for this. (Though I admit that with new technolgy on either side, this<BR>
> is false. But OTOH, that is not _that_ common in OTU.)<<BR>
> <BR>
> I disagree. I think the introduction of intelligence adds a constant<BR>
> variable to any encounter and making creativity almost mandatory for<BR>
> victory. Unless of course tactical innovation as a whole has ground to a<BR>
> complete halt. But then you have powder keg situation where one new idea<BR>
> will radically alter the field of battle.<BR>
<BR>
That was what I meant by mentioning technologic leaps. These haven't<BR>
happened in OTU for quite a long time- and have never been very common<BR>
in OTU's history. The Interstellar Wars were one of the few exceptions. <BR>
 <BR>
> >Well, I guess it, but just to be sure: What are "Luddites"?<<BR>
> <BR>
> Anti-tech types who want to do away with some to all machines depending on<BR>
> degree of commitment/fanaticism. This could be anywhere from saying no<BR>
> robots to no computers to no power looms to no plows.<BR>
<BR>
So I guessed it right. Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Are these people intended to be of any economical or political influence<BR>
in the Confederation?<BR>
If yes: Why?<BR>
 <BR>
> >And where do the Solomani draw the line between a robot and an automized<BR>
> industrial facility (or a part of it)? Sounds as if they were damned to<BR>
> lose any economical competition with the 3I, the Hivers _and_ the Aslan<BR>
> clans at their border. Not to speak of the military...<<BR>
> <BR>
> Different lines depending on beliefs. Check the AM or Cats&Rats or Aliens of<BR>
> the Rim for examples.<BR>
<BR>
<sigh> I don't have those. <BR>
<BR>
Is SJG planning to bring out something about the Solomani Confederation?<BR>
<BR>
> As for damned, *shrug* that is how some people are even today. The Fteirle<BR>
> won't use robots if their enemies don't have them and obey other Fteirle<BR>
> rules of war. The 3I doesn't make massive use of military robots. The Hivers<BR>
> do. I suppose that is why you constantly hear about Solomani provocations<BR>
> directed towards the first two and not the last.<BR>
<BR>
Makes sense.<BR>
<BR>
Though I'd also think that the Hivers a very good at keeping public<BR>
opinion in the Confederation in favor of them...<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:01:38 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> David P. Summers writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > OTOH, since they have nuclear damper technology, they have<BR>
> > the ability to control the rate of nuclear processes.  It isn't too<BR>
> > far fetched to presume that some technology exists that allows<BR>
> > one to get the mesons to decay at some distance from the gun<BR>
> <BR>
> Yup.  I have no problem with there being a handwave which permits meson guns to work, its just that the > handwave which has been given is unsuitable <BR>
> (it would also help if mesons actually _were_ non-interacting particles.  I'm pretty sure mesons interact <BR>
> with the strong force, which means they don't have any better penetration than neutrons).<BR>
<BR>
That is a problem indeed. Hm... How did Marc, Loren & Co. come to the<BR>
conclusion that mesons <BR>
can pass through any matter?  I mean, they won't have made it up. So-<BR>
was it a public(or even scientific) disbelief in the 70's?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Cu,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:47:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> On 24 May 00, at 23:02, Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> > From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > But I would say that since meson half-time (exp?) is exremely short<BR>
(one<BR>
> > > has to use relativity to get them to the target before they decay...),<BR>
> > > the speed of the mesons is planned to let them decay eaxactly when<BR>
they<BR>
> > > hit the target vessel. Thus, all mesons in the "beam" would decay at<BR>
the<BR>
> > > right place (from the firing sides POV, that is.) Unless you don't<BR>
hit,<BR>
> > > of course.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Perhaps Mr Meson's Mesons *do* react with normal matter, albeit<BR>
relatively<BR>
> > weakly (else how do meson communications work...).<BR>
><BR>
> By having a small Meson screen inside.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I spotted that myself about 20 minutes after I'd posted, when I was<BR>
reading through Striker in bed... (Michel, I'm working on the ACV.... <g>)<BR>
<BR>
Also, It mentions that meson guns work by creating mesons using two<BR>
intersecting particle beams, one of electrons the other of positrons, to<BR>
form neutral pi-mesons (Pion).<BR>
<BR>
From http://www.groupz.net/~schroedr/Chap06.html I obtained the following<BR>
<BR>
The Pi 0 meson decays in the following manner (g = gamma ray; e+ = positron;<BR>
e- = electron):<BR>
<BR>
Product        %age<BR>
- --------        ------<BR>
g g               98.8%<BR>
g e+ e-        1.2%<BR>
g g g            <10e-5<BR>
e+ e- e+ e-  <10e-4<BR>
<BR>
As the Pi 0 meson is its own antiparticle (one of the very few particles<BR>
with this property) I suppose you could arrange to have *two* Pi 0 meson<BR>
beams intersect and mutually annihilate into gamma rays and/or<BR>
positron/electron pairs (which would in turn mutually annihilate into gamma<BR>
rays) within the target.<BR>
<BR>
This would require meson guns to have *4* particle accelerators. 2 positron<BR>
and two electron beams. Each opposing pair intersecting to producing a Pi 0<BR>
meson beam which in turn intersect to produce gamma rays.<BR>
<BR>
So to summarise. The mesons are fired at relativistic speed to minimise<BR>
spontaneous decay, and intersect with another meson beam *inside* the<BR>
target, whereupon mutual annihilation occurs releasing gamma rays.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:07:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
>    Basicly, Doug, arrogance is not a bad thing, always. <BR>
>For example, you drive for Super Shuttle, right?  If I <BR>
>flew into where you are & got a ride from you to my hotel,<BR>
<BR>
>you would know how to get there, correct?  As such, you <BR>
>would have the right to be arrogant.  The same way with <BR>
>the Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
No one has the right to be arrogant.  One may have the<BR>
power to be arrogant, that is, one may be in a situation<BR>
where no one will challenge one's arrogance.  That doesn't<BR>
mean that the arrogant person is acting within his rights. <BR>
He still doesn't belong in polite society.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:11:22 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
> Now to the important content.<BR>
><BR>
> Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
<BR>
Of course they were, given that every region of Earth has practiced ritual<BR>
cannibalism, and hunger cannibalism has survived to the present day (I read<BR>
a review of a book recently that detailed the first attempt to convict<BR>
shipwrecked sailors of murder for killing and eating a dying shipmate, which<BR>
took place in the late 19th century.)<BR>
<BR>
The *real* question is why Vilani cooking practices survived after contact<BR>
with Terran food. Given their preferences, it seems likely that they'd kill<BR>
for Thai or Indian cooking*:<BR>
<BR>
Vilani Noble: That was delicious! What was it?<BR>
Terran Planetary governor Lt. (JG) Krishnamurthi: A simple dish from my<BR>
region of Earth...chicken and curried rice.<BR>
Vilani Noble: Mmmm! Tastes like Uncle!<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
*I wanted to say that Italian cooking would conquer the First Imperium, but<BR>
unless they stopped weaning their young**, Vilani are probably lactose<BR>
intolerant. No lasagna.<BR>
<BR>
**And we don't want to open that can of worms, do we?***<BR>
<BR>
***Although mother's milk *is* a good source of protein and fat :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:12:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
[deletions not marked]<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
>From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
>>The Highlanders, particularly the Jacobite/Catholic <BR>
>>clans, destroyed Scotland.  May they rot in hell.<BR>
><BR>
>    You sir, & I do use that term loosely, as loosely as I<BR>
>can, meaning a man, have personally insulted my clan, my <BR>
>family, & myself, I would ask you as a man of honor to <BR>
>withdraw this statement, before you start a flamewar with<BR>
>me.<BR>
<BR>
I'm still only on Monday's digests.  If these two have<BR>
chosen seconds and agreed to meet on the field of honor,<BR>
would someone please email me off list?  I think that I<BR>
could arrange for the duel to be broadcast live over the<BR>
internet.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:16:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
> lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
> technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
<BR>
Temporarily suspending belief in quantum mechanics, how about this? If you<BR>
can determine when decay is going to occur, you can produce interesting<BR>
materials. Suppose that you can isolate all of a certain isotope which will<BR>
decay at exactly 12:00 on June 25, 2000. You can then make a device which<BR>
will release lots of radiation in a short time.<BR>
<BR>
Or, suppose that you can isolate all of the atoms which will decay at 12:00<BR>
on June 25, 2000. You then wait until a few seconds before the decay happens<BR>
and stop the process with a nuclear damper. You then use the resulting<BR>
device to jump start your jump drive in an emergency. You turn off the<BR>
damper, and with a loud *zap* your jump drive starts up again.<BR>
<BR>
Using the same idea, you can make a device which releases a sudden and<BR>
intense pulse of neutrinos/mesons/whatever. Maybe it'a a good emergency<BR>
signal for a ship crew.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:20:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/25/00 11:05 AM, tiamat@tsoft.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> They could also be Jewish.  You have to believe in Satan to worship him,<BR>
> so Satanic devil worshippers would have to be either Christian or Jewish.<BR>
> People of other religions may worship other devils, but cannot worship<BR>
> Satan.<BR>
> <BR>
> Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
You forgot Islam, whose members believe in "The Adversary" as well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:30:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
>A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist." <BR>
>Which is it?<BR>
<BR>
What's the difference?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:30:25 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics > <BR>
<BR>
Clay <arioch@theriver.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > In MT psionics work at interplanetary range. In MT psionics<BR>
> > have a base cost and Range costs are added to this.<BR>
> > On the other hand the rules also state that "Psionics have<BR>
> > proven incapable of interplanetary ranges." [p 97] If<BR>
> > you read this as meaning "Psionics are incapable of attaining<BR>
> > Range 12 (Interplanetary Range) or _greater_." than Psionics<BR>
> > are limited to range 12 and the above egregious threat to canon<BR>
> > can not exist.<BR>
<BR>
> It lists costs up to Extreme Orbit (12), then the rules state "Psionics<BR>
> has proven incapable of interplanetary ranges".  That looks pretty clear<BR>
> cut to me.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect a lot of people would read it this way but to me<BR>
"Psionics has proven incapable of interplanetary ranges" is not<BR>
equal to "Psionics has proven incapable of interplanetary or<BR>
greater ranges." Therefore, according to the exact letter of<BR>
the written text without interjecting my own interpretations,<BR>
Psionics is capable of being used at System [Range 14] and<BR>
Substellar [Range 15]. YMMV<BR>
<BR>
> So, even with the speed of light limitation, the only time a lag would<BR>
> occur would be so costly to the psi that only one message would be sent<BR>
> (supposing they are powerful and/or drugged up enough to do it in the<BR>
> first place).  So, no significant lag would be perceived.<BR>
> <BR>
> If the situation is so intense that seconds may matter, I wouldn't take<BR>
> out a calculator or even give a moments thought to figuring out exactly<BR>
> how long it would take.  Doing that would stall and ruin the atmosphere<BR>
> of the game.<BR>
<BR>
If I accepted that Psionics had a speed then to me _not_ calculating<BR>
the time would probably ruin the atmosphere of the game. The game is<BR>
supposed to model a reality and making up the details of that <BR>
reality, rather than calculating them according to the games written<BR>
rules, would destroy my 'willing suspension of disbelief'. If<BR>
the Referee is just going to make up things that are covered by game<BR>
rules or real world physics than you might as well put your Traveller<BR>
books away sit back and let the GM tell a story, not play a game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2501<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (rly-yh05.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.37]) by air-yh02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 16:36:01 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 16:35:29 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA80368;<BR>
	Thu, 25 May 2000 16:32:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 25 May 2000 16:31:04 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA80295<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 16:31:04 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:31:04 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005252031.QAA80295@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2501<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2502</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/25/00 3:32:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2502<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Acronyms<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics > <BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Suggested List Rules<BR>
Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
RE: Acronyms<BR>
RE: Warning......<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:32:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/25/00 11:55 AM, charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> LLP:  Lilliputian Lust Puppet (oh wait, that's not from the TML...sorry)<BR>
<BR>
Where the heck /is/ it from?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, there is an acronym database somewhere on the web (forgot where) that<BR>
is a beauty for this kind of stuff. you just type it into a text field and<BR>
if they know it you get your answer. If not, and you find out elsewhere, you<BR>
can put it into the database. I'm sure somebody on the list remembers the<BR>
url.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics > <BR>
<BR>
Clay <arioch@theriver.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > In MT psionics work at interplanetary range. In MT psionics<BR>
> > have a base cost and Range costs are added to this.<BR>
> > On the other hand the rules also state that "Psionics have<BR>
> > proven incapable of interplanetary ranges." [p 97] If<BR>
> > you read this as meaning "Psionics are incapable of attaining<BR>
> > Range 12 (Interplanetary Range) or _greater_." than Psionics<BR>
> > are limited to range 12 and the above egregious threat to canon<BR>
> > can not exist.<BR>
> <BR>
> It lists costs up to Extreme Orbit (12), then the rules state "Psionics<BR>
> has proven incapable of interplanetary ranges".  That looks pretty clear<BR>
> cut to me.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that doesn't specify that longer range is impossible, just that no-one has managed to do it.  Thus, the threat to canon only comes if its a new development (in which case it doesn't have to be a canon threat anyway, since it doesn't change the past).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:53:36 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
"VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> >>>Our Jump Commando can pop a single Psi Booster and become<BR>
> Psi Str 15. He then Teleports half a Parsec towards the<BR>
> other system carrying 12 kilos of equipment (including<BR>
> a space suit & air [This is a Formidable Task so he needs<BR>
> to roll a 15+ to succeed, he has a +12 so he will only fail<BR>
> if a 2 is rolled]. He instantly pops out half way to the<BR>
> base.<<<<<BR>
<BR>
> He will also be a block of frozen ice, unless he starts out from about the<BR>
> orbit of Pluto, I believe...see Niven's "Theory and Practice of<BR>
> Teleportation."<BR>
<BR>
If he retains his starting velocity (as is Traveller canon) he <BR>
will be racing through space at many kps and will be dead<BR>
if he runs into a sub milligram particle but his internal body<BR>
temperature will not have changed. It is only converting<BR>
momentum to heat that will cook or freeze him. A simple space<BR>
to space jump will avoid this.<BR>
<BR>
> Despite what Trav says about "energy compensators," I don't see how they can<BR>
> be possible for psi transport...wouldn't pumping energy into a person (to<BR>
> avoid conversion of kinetic to potential energy) just increase the energy<BR>
> required to teleport?<BR>
<BR>
That's not how they work. Say you jump 0.5 km straight down<BR>
and your brain goes up 1.25 degrees C. This is bad. But if you<BR>
have a chill suit on that has already started to induce hypothermia<BR>
and your body temperature was already 1.25 degrees low then you<BR>
are back to normal instead of suffering a fever. Heat/chill<BR>
suits for teleporters gradually adjust their body temperatures<BR>
in the opposite direction prior to jump so that the jump returns<BR>
their bodies to normal temperature instead of freezing or<BR>
cooking them.<BR>
<BR>
> >>>The MT Psionics<BR>
> rules never mention speed of light lag anywhere. I take<BR>
> this to mean that Psionics are instant. "Psionic activity,<BR>
> at the ranges given, is effectively instantaneous."<<<<BR>
<BR>
> I suspect that this line was carried over from the LBBs without checking it<BR>
> against the revised rules, a common error in the MT texts. It makes much<BR>
> more sense in the context of CT's maximum range of Plantetary.<BR>
<BR>
Planetary range is up to 50,000 km in MT. If Psionics are<BR>
speed of light than they take a full one sixth second to travel<BR>
that distance. One sixth of a second is a very long time to<BR>
a computer and even to humans is slow eye blink. That's<BR>
not 'effectively instantaneous'. On the other hand 'effectively <BR>
instantaneous' is not equal to 'instantaneous' so you may be <BR>
right but I always read 'effectively instantaneous' to mean <BR>
something like occurring in Plank time'<BR>
<BR>
> If psi isn't limited by lightspeed, it would theoretically be possible to<BR>
> set up a chain of deep space bases staffed by telepaths, giving you almost<BR>
> instantaneous communication, and we wouldn't want *that* :)<BR>
<BR>
No it would not. The base cost of 'Send surface Thoughts is<BR>
2 + Range, therefore even a Psi 15 could only send thoughts 1 AU<BR>
and you'd need 200,000 Psi 15's to send thoughts 1 Parsec which<BR>
is very impractical and would take (at 12 seconds each minimum<BR>
duration) 28 days anyway, making Jump faster.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:54:58 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The *real* question is why Vilani cooking practices survived after contact<BR>
> with Terran food. Given their preferences, it seems likely that they'd kill<BR>
> for Thai or Indian cooking*:<BR>
<BR>
So now we know the real reason for the invasion of Earth.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:54:03 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
>They could also be Jewish.<BR>
<BR>
Probably not. Satan doesn't appear in Judaism as the same kind of character<BR>
he does in Christianity. I find it difficult to imagine a Jewish-Satanist,<BR>
or a Satanic-Jew. It was certainly the case among the ancient Jews that<BR>
Satan appeared as something of a heavenly prosecutor, an "accusing angel" in<BR>
God's "court", and from my own conversations with modern American folks<BR>
practicing the Jewish faith, this still seems to be the basis for how the<BR>
entity is viewed.<BR>
<BR>
So it would seem that someone who might be called a Satanist (which by any<BR>
definition of the word would imply a primary worship of Satan in some form)<BR>
could also be said to be Jewish. There are also various beliefs which appear<BR>
in Judaism (including the primacy of the worship of the one true God) which<BR>
would seem to preclude this. I can't see any possible scenario in which<BR>
Satan could be raised to a level of primacy in Judaism without substantially<BR>
changing the face of the religion in mythologically, intellectually and in<BR>
practical observance.<BR>
<BR>
So, no. They couldn't "also be Jewish".<BR>
<BR>
>You have to believe in Satan to worship him,<BR>
>so Satanic devil worshippers would have to be either Christian or Jewish.<BR>
<BR>
While it's obvious that one would have to believe in Satan to worship such<BR>
an entity, you're wrong on the second count, unless you're working under odd<BR>
definitions of Christianity, Judaism and Satanism. In the case of Judaism,<BR>
see above. In the case of Christianity, my previous post in response to Evyn<BR>
should illustrate my objections.<BR>
<BR>
>People of other religions may worship other devils, but cannot worship<BR>
>Satan.<BR>
<BR>
Seems like a rather spurious statement, given that one cannot be a<BR>
Satanic-Christian, or Satanic-Jew.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:01:24 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000 04:25:23 -0400 (EDT),<BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
>>Subject: Client States (was Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
>(kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
>>Secondary question: Why might the Imperium prefer that a Client<BR>
>>State remain so, instead of being incorporated into the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
>>A Client State can be used as a proxy in situations where direct<BR>
>>Imperial involvement would be ill-advised or outright provocative.<BR>
<BR>
>>A Client State does not impose the same sort of obligations on<BR>
>>the Imperium that a Member State does - if a proxy operation goes<BR>
>>badly wrong, the Imperium can disclaim all knowledge of it, and<BR>
>>abandon the Client State to the consequences. A Member State must<BR>
>>be protected.<BR>
<BR>
>  Someone here is a little too devious for everyone else's good :)<BR>
<BR>
Devious? Moi? You cut me to the quick, sir, with your baseless<BR>
(but entirely accurate) accusations!<BR>
<BR>
>  Of course, most client states will have people who understand the<BR>
>above, but that doesn't mean that factions and individuals can't be<BR>
>co-opted, or that leaders won't know the rules. And mistakes happen...<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that most client states will have few people who<BR>
_don't_ understand the above, and none of those will be in<BR>
positions of power... Consider that while the Soviet Union<BR>
outright annexed Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, they never<BR>
attempted the same with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania,<BR>
Bulgaria, or East Germany...<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:01:30 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000 13:00:29 -0400 (EDT), Tod Glenn<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>OK everybody, apologies for any gross errors or rudeness in my posts.  I<BR>
>really shouldn't be up at 2am reading TML.  Will advanced technology bring a<BR>
>cure for this sleep disease? There just aren't enough hours in the day.<BR>
<BR>
Run DriveSpace on your clocks?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:07:24 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
<BR>
Why do you say that Doug?<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that given the significantly higher productivity<BR>
of the US that it could have defeated Japan fairly handily <BR>
without Magic (even while spending most of its resources<BR>
in Europe). I am sure that casualties would have been<BR>
higher without Magic but Japan simply did not have the<BR>
resources for a prolonged war. The US could have survived<BR>
having its ships, planes, and soldiers blown up for longer<BR>
than the Japanese could have. Moreover the US would have been<BR>
well fed during all this while the Japanese would not.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:09:07 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
At 7:29 PM -0700 5/24/00, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
><BR>
>  >>Haven't watched 'Jack of All Trades' yet, have we?<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  ><BR>
>  >Which has to be one of the most historically inaccurate<BR>
>  >protrayals of all time.  :-)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     No better or worse than Xena or Hercules.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe tied for the worst.  Though Xena and Hercules have<BR>
moments that "Jack" doesn't seem to have....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:00:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 15:17 -0400 25/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
>    NP, Dom.  Btw, when are you going to kick in your .02 Cr. on Trade<BR>
>Coastals/Trade Cartels?<BR>
<BR>
Probably in a week or so after I get back from the West Coast of <BR>
Ireland for my first holiday since Sept 98...<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, to be honest I would rate responses from Ian Whitchurch, Jim <BR>
MacLean/Bloo, and Hans far above mine when it comes to economics <BR>
stuff.<BR>
<BR>
What i was thinking was that you could do the Hanseatic (?) stuff by <BR>
using an isolated subsector/cluster.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:01:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
At 16:31 -0400 25/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
> >Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than<BR>
> >just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do<BR>
> >mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
>    Sorry, Dom, I did not know you had replied to this thread.<BR>
<BR>
Just the lightspeed lag ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:16:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
The environment here on the TML has been getting a bit<BR>
hostile lately. I would like to propose a few rules that<BR>
may help make it a less hostile place. Much of the problem has<BR>
been do to a few people but it is an 'environmental' problem<BR>
as well. The signal to noise ratio is getting a little high <BR>
here.<BR>
<BR>
Much of the hostility has been coming from off topic threads.<BR>
It seems to me that if we were to curtail off topic threads<BR>
the hostility level might go down. Therefore I propose the<BR>
following rules, which I have seen work well elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
1) All off topic threads are limited in length to 3 days<BR>
(72 hours) from first posting. This will give people a chance<BR>
to respond to them without letting them go on excessively.<BR>
A 3 day limit will A) reduce the off topicness of the list,<BR>
B) Kill some threads before they end up going hostile,<BR>
and C) establish the clear expectation that this is the<BR>
_Traveller_ Mailing list.<BR>
<BR>
2) All off topic threads are to be clearly labeled.<BR>
I suggest that the list pick either [OT] or OT:<BR>
Anyone who tried to filter out posts that just said OT<BR>
would loose all posts with headers like not and lots.<BR>
This will enable OT topics to be better ignored. As<BR>
threads go off topic an OT: label will be added and<BR>
when they come back on topic the OT: label will be<BR>
removed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:38:31 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
<BR>
<Anthony Jackson><BR>
The problem is that a beam of neutrinos and antineutrinos would pass right<BR>
through each other without interacting significantly.<BR>
Neutrinos are neutral leptons, and uncharged.<BR>
</AJ><BR>
<BR>
But if they are uncharged, then in what sense are there "anti" versions?<BR>
I thought anti-particles had opposite charge.  Thus, no anti-neutrons. And<BR>
if they do have charge, wouldn't that cause the opposites to interact? <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:41:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
>>> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> 05/25/00 02:16PM >>><BR>
The environment here on the TML has been getting a bit<BR>
hostile lately. I would like to propose a few rules that<BR>
may help make it a less hostile place. Much of the problem has<BR>
been do to a few people but it is an 'environmental' problem<BR>
as well. The signal to noise ratio is getting a little high <BR>
here.<BR>
<BR>
Much of the hostility has been coming from off topic threads.<BR>
It seems to me that if we were to curtail off topic threads<BR>
the hostility level might go down. Therefore I propose the<BR>
following rules, which I have seen work well elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
1) All off topic threads are limited in length to 3 days<BR>
(72 hours) from first posting. This will give people a chance<BR>
to respond to them without letting them go on excessively.<BR>
A 3 day limit will A) reduce the off topicness of the list,<BR>
B) Kill some threads before they end up going hostile,<BR>
and C) establish the clear expectation that this is the<BR>
_Traveller_ Mailing list.<BR>
<BR>
2) All off topic threads are to be clearly labeled.<BR>
I suggest that the list pick either [OT] or OT:<BR>
Anyone who tried to filter out posts that just said OT<BR>
would loose all posts with headers like not and lots.<BR>
This will enable OT topics to be better ignored. As<BR>
threads go off topic an OT: label will be added and<BR>
when they come back on topic the OT: label will be<BR>
removed.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.....does that mean that we now have 72 hours to respond to this thread?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry,...couldn't resist.<BR>
<BR>
It really does not sound like a bad idea.  Although I am not sure where you draw the line at signal to noise ratio.  Seems to me that is a more subjective judgement.  But that is just me.<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:37:26 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>>Yamamoto's comments came after he had learned that the Declaration of War<BR>
>had not been delviered in time.<<BR>
><BR>
>Yamamoto opposed the entire operation even before that.<BR>
<BR>
Uh...Yamamoto was the person who pushed the Pearl Harbor operation through.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>The attack on Pearl crippled several drydocks, destroyed hundreds of<BR>
>aircraft, and killed thousands of irreplacable navy NCOs and officers.<BR>
>Strategically, it was devastating.  That's why Midway was so important, it<BR>
>brough parity back to the Pacific theatre, along with giving the US Navy a<BR>
>badly needly overwhelming victory.<<BR>
><BR>
>The loss in men was overwhelmingly significant. The drydocks not<BR>
>particularly given how few ships actually wound up needing repairs through<BR>
>the whole Pacific war, the aircraft were mostly obsolete. Midway was<BR>
>somewhat important but had it not occurred parity would have been regained<BR>
>within a year or two anyway with new carrier production. The transfer of a<BR>
>forward base would have been a more significant side effect.<BR>
<BR>
You are both wrong.  Name ONE (1) drydock the US lost at Pearl Harbor due to<BR>
battle damage.  <BR>
And while the ~2,000 was not light, it was NOT enormously significant (I do<BR>
not recall the USN suffering for a from a general personnel shortage due to<BR>
losses, for example.).<BR>
<BR>
Midway was important because it killed the majority of the skilled,<BR>
experience naval aviators the Japanese had.  The Solomon Campaign finished<BR>
the trend.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:46:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
<BR>
Charles Colin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> But if they are uncharged, then in what sense are there "anti" versions?<BR>
> I thought anti-particles had opposite charge.  Thus, no anti-neutrons. And<BR>
> if they do have charge, wouldn't that cause the opposites to interact?<BR>
<BR>
I believe that neutrinos carry angular monentum, so that is the quantity<BR>
which is the opposite in the anti-particle.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:41:33 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>Had the decalaration been delivered on-time, it's possible that the anger<BR>
>would have been directed at the Navy for not being ready.  But "the sneaky<BR>
>Japs" hit us while we were at peace.<BR>
<BR>
The Famous Fourteen Part Message the Japanese delivered to the Americans WAS<BR>
NOT A DECLARATION OF WAR.  That required an Imperial Rescript, which was not<BR>
thought of until after the shells and troops were landing at Kota Bharu and<BR>
Pearl Harbor was attacked.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, it was not even BREAK diplomatic relations!<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:52:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
> <Anthony Jackson><BR>
> The problem is that a beam of neutrinos and antineutrinos would pass right<BR>
> through each other without interacting significantly.<BR>
> Neutrinos are neutral leptons, and uncharged.<BR>
> </AJ><BR>
> <BR>
> But if they are uncharged, then in what sense are there "anti" versions?<BR>
> I thought anti-particles had opposite charge.  Thus, no anti-neutrons. And<BR>
> if they do have charge, wouldn't that cause the opposites to interact? <BR>
<BR>
A neutrino has a lepton number of +1, an antineutrino has a lepton number of -1.  This is similar to neutron (baryon number +1, no charge) and antineutron (baryon number -1, no charge).  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:57:25 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
I am not replying to anyone in particular, but I thought I'd add my<BR>
Cr0.02<BR>
<BR>
http://www.toreadors.com/gothfash/gothfash0.html<BR>
<BR>
The above URL describes how to use the alt.gothic.fashion newsgroup. The<BR>
rules and guidelines are very useable for all kinds of newsgroups and<BR>
mailing lists (including the TML).<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:37:19 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
>>VonRammen wrote:<BR>
>>If psi isn't limited by lightspeed, it would theoretically be possible to<BR>
>> set up a chain of deep space bases staffed by telepaths, giving you<BR>
almost<BR>
>> instantaneous communication, and we wouldn't want *that* :)<BR>
<BR>
Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
<BR>
>With the range limitation it would take a *huge* number of such bases and<BR>
>telepaths of very high talent, which there aren't very many of.  But I'm<BR>
sure<BR>
>the Zhos have tried :)<BR>
<BR>
Right, forgot about 2+Range as the psi cost. Note that you don't necessarily<BR>
need highly talented psions, assuming you have enough supplies of special<BR>
drug available.<BR>
<BR>
Was telepathy cheaper for Zhodani? All I have left of AM4 is the cover. If<BR>
the cost drops to 0+Range, you can have a base every 1.5 parsecs. Speed of<BR>
transmission is effectively instantaneous (actually, something like a few<BR>
hours depending on total distance, assuming you keep a few psions charged up<BR>
to Psi-15 by special drug at all times at each base.) If this is possible,<BR>
somebody's going to build it; there's too many advantages to speeding up<BR>
communications.<BR>
<BR>
Of course the note about Psi not working over interplanetary distances seems<BR>
to plug this large hole, so I'm not losing sleep over it. :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:44:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>Probably in a week or so after I get back from the West Coast of<BR>
>Ireland for my first holiday since Sept 98...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Cool.<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway, to be honest I would rate responses from Ian Whitchurch, Jim<BR>
>MacLean/Bloo, and Hans far above mine when it comes to economics<BR>
>stuff.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    But, not from a gameplay standard.  There is a landgrab going, but until<BR>
is it done, it is not playable material.  I was hoping to spark some<BR>
playable ideas.<BR>
<BR>
>What i was thinking was that you could do the Hanseatic (?) stuff by<BR>
>using an isolated subsector/cluster.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I was thinking that same basic thing.  Of course you could also do it<BR>
with TL 9 to TL 11 worlds, before contact with the 1I.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:50:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Sorry, Dom, I did not know you had replied to this thread.<BR>
><BR>
>Just the lightspeed lag ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    It seems like it.  But, the thing is that this would give you a way to<BR>
set up a long running game with multiple ships.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:07:41 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> the hostility level might go down. Therefore I propose the<BR>
> following rules, which I have seen work well elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
I second them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
11:07pm up 19 days, 4:09, 2 users, load average: 0.79, 0.88, 0.68<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:21:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
> [deletions not marked]<BR>
> >From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
><BR>
> >From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
> >>The Highlanders, particularly the Jacobite/Catholic<BR>
> >>clans, destroyed Scotland.  May they rot in hell.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >    You sir, & I do use that term loosely, as<BR>
loosely as I<BR>
> >can, meaning a man, have personally insulted my<BR>
clan, my<BR>
> >family, & myself, I would ask you as a man of honor<BR>
to<BR>
> >withdraw this statement, before you start a flamewar<BR>
with<BR>
> >me.<BR>
<BR>
Oh please let there be independence soon, I so want to<BR>
see what happens next.<BR>
<BR>
Ben A<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:05:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
> >A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist." <BR>
> >Which is it?<BR>
> <BR>
> What's the difference?<BR>
> <BR>
Sausages<BR>
<BR>
Ben A<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:16:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Acronyms<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, you missed out the ones no-one wants to see in a reply.<BR>
<BR>
YTC	"You're Talking Crap"<BR>
YTB	"You're Talking Bollocks / Bullshit"<BR>
FOAD	"F+*k Off And Die"<BR>
TIB	"This is Bollocks / Bullshit"<BR>
<BR>
(BTW, OTOH = "On The Other Hand")<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Russell<BR>
> Bornschlegel<BR>
> Sent: 25 May 2000 19:43<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Acronyms<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Hmm, what-all acronyms can I remember, TML-specific and not...<BR>
><BR>
> HAND = Have A Nice Day<BR>
> YHBT = You Have Been Trolled<BR>
> FWIW = For What It's Worth<BR>
> BTW = By The Way<BR>
> (I)MTU, YTU, OTU = (In) My, Your, Official Traveller Universe<BR>
> YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary (i.e. this works for me but<BR>
> might not work for<BR>
> you)<BR>
> TWIAVBP = The World Is A Very Big Place (i.e. you're working off an<BR>
> assumption that holds true where you live but not<BR>
> necessarily true elsewhere)<BR>
> OT = Off-Topic (I don't think I ever see OT used for On Topic)<BR>
> (I)RL = (In) Real Life<BR>
> LOL = Laughing Out Loud<BR>
> ROFL = Rolling On Floor Laughing<BR>
> C|N>K = Coffee (went through my) Nose (onto my) Keyboard<BR>
> OTOH = On The Other Hand<BR>
> OTGH = On The Gripping Hand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:26:54 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Warning......<BR>
<BR>
Hilarious - I love it (and I use Outlook 2000, sad sod that I am).<BR>
ROTFLOL.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of <BR>
> Evyn MacDude<BR>
> Sent: 25 May 2000 09:25<BR>
> To: Tml<BR>
> Subject: Warning......<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Subject: VIRUS for LINUX/UNIX/MAC!<BR>
> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:40:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
> <BR>
> Attention Linux/Unix/OS2/MAC Users:<BR>
> This virus operates on the honor system. Please mail this message<BR>
> to every email address on your system and randomly delete a<BR>
> number of files from your hard drive.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thank you.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> Evyn...<BR>
> <BR>
> C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
> <BR>
> Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
> Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
> Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
> Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
>  Laredo<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2502<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (rly-yb04.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.4]) by air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:32:34 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:31:47 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA86285;<BR>
	Thu, 25 May 2000 18:29:44 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 25 May 2000 18:29:37 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA86230<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:29:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:29:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005252229.SAA86230@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2502<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2503</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/25/00 6:57:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2503<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
OT: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
The Hansa, Normans in Sicily and so on<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
TML Rules<BR>
Dim Memory<BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
RE: Officers<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Client States (now OT:)<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Client States (with some OT Constitutional content)<BR>
Re: GRIP world builder and character generator for TRAVELLER<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:30:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> So it would seem that someone who might be called a Satanist (which by any<BR>
> definition of the word would imply a primary worship of Satan in some form)<BR>
> could also be said to be Jewish. There are also various beliefs which appear<BR>
> in Judaism (including the primacy of the worship of the one true God) which<BR>
> would seem to preclude this. I can't see any possible scenario in which<BR>
> Satan could be raised to a level of primacy in Judaism without substantially<BR>
> changing the face of the religion in mythologically, intellectually and in<BR>
> practical observance.<BR>
> <BR>
Devil worship implies belief in devils.  If you don't believe that Satan<BR>
exists, how can you be a Satanist?  Actually, what this really proves is<BR>
that "Satanists" by and large don't exist.  There are a very, very, VERY<BR>
few people who claim to be Satanists, usually because they want to attract<BR>
attention to themselves and piss people off.  But really, to accept Satan<BR>
implies the acceptance of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic pantheon in one of<BR>
its three primary manifestations.  To accept this, and to choose the<BR>
losing side to worship, is a rather odd thing to do.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the people whom Christians like to refer to as "satanists" are<BR>
actually nothing of the sort.  They are worshipping something completely<BR>
outside the J-C-I paradigm.  Many Christians like to say that since<BR>
they believe nothing outside the Christian paradigm exists, we must all be<BR>
worshipping Satan.  That's a) not a nice thing to say b) not provable and<BR>
c) a smear and a slur frequently used by fundamentalists to get other<BR>
Christians not to listen to people of other, non-Book faiths.  Most of the<BR>
ex-Satanists who turn up on TV talking about how they used to be Satanic<BR>
"witches" but were then saved by Jesus were just messed-up kids who liked<BR>
to claim they were Satanists to piss off their folks and were always<BR>
secretly a bit Christian.  Or else they're ridiculous frauds, like Mike<BR>
Warnke and the people that say whole giant families in the midwest have<BR>
been secretly sexually abusing all their kids, force-breeding their kids,<BR>
and murdering the resulting babies for generations without anyone<BR>
noticing.<BR>
<BR>
> So, no. They couldn't "also be Jewish".<BR>
> <BR>
> >You have to believe in Satan to worship him,<BR>
> >so Satanic devil worshippers would have to be either Christian or Jewish.<BR>
> <BR>
> While it's obvious that one would have to believe in Satan to worship such<BR>
> an entity, you're wrong on the second count, unless you're working under odd<BR>
> definitions of Christianity, Judaism and Satanism. In the case of Judaism,<BR>
> see above. In the case of Christianity, my previous post in response to Evyn<BR>
> should illustrate my objections.<BR>
<BR>
I think I disagree with you.  I didn't read your post to Evyn, but I've<BR>
noticed that GENERALLY, Christians dislike this theory and non-Christians<BR>
think it is obvious that acceptance of Satan implies acceptance of the<BR>
Christian paradigm making Satanism one of the religions of the J-C-I<BR>
constellation-- if you are going to view Satanism as a religion at all,<BR>
which it basically isn't.  Typically, Satanists are bored kids, lone<BR>
psychos, or attention seekers in the entertainment or ceremonial magick<BR>
fields.  They don't have anything remotely like a consistent theology,<BR>
except for the Luciferian Gnostics who are definitely an offshoot of<BR>
Gnostic Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
> >People of other religions may worship other devils, but cannot worship<BR>
> >Satan.<BR>
> <BR>
> Seems like a rather spurious statement, given that one cannot be a<BR>
> Satanic-Christian, or Satanic-Jew.<BR>
> <BR>
I'd say you couldn't be anything else.  To believe that Satan, the great<BR>
defier, exists, you must believe he has got someone to defy.<BR>
<BR>
You certainly can't be a Satanic Wiccan or a Satanic Buddhist or a Satanic<BR>
Shintoist or a Satanic Hindu!  (While the notion of a universal feminist<BR>
Old Religion is pure poppycock from a historical perspective, there is<BR>
nothing remotely Satanist about it!)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:48:56 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
Yamamoto recognized that war with the US meant smashing the fleet in a<BR>
lightning, demoralizing strike. Thus, the push for the attack on Pearl. But<BR>
he didn't want to go to war with the US and saw the whole Pearl attack as a<BR>
huge bet-the-farm gamble (according to my sources). <BR>
The question remains, why go to war with the US? Because an attack on the<BR>
Philippines, necessary to secure Japanese shipping routes, would bring the<BR>
US into the war anyway. But Pearl had to be attacked as the opening move<BR>
before the fleet could disperse in response to an attack on the Philippines.<BR>
<BR>
Makes me wonder what would have happened if the Japanese had never attacked<BR>
Pearl or other US protectorates/possessions int he Pacific. Would the<BR>
sleeping giant ever have woken up to the trouble in Europe?<BR>
<BR>
Look ma, I'm using an OT flag in my subject header.<BR>
<BR>
	Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:37:26 -0400<BR>
	From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
	Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
	>>Yamamoto's comments came after he had learned that the Declaration<BR>
of War<BR>
	>had not been delviered in time.<<BR>
	><BR>
	>Yamamoto opposed the entire operation even before that.<BR>
<BR>
	Uh...Yamamoto was the person who pushed the Pearl Harbor operation<BR>
through.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:57:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: The Hansa, Normans in Sicily and so on<BR>
<BR>
One thing to remember about the Hansa was that when they were at their peak<BR>
they provided the 'far end' of the Genoese trade circuit from the Near East,<BR>
via Italy, to Antwerp.<BR>
<BR>
Once Dutch finance capitalism got rolling in the 16th and 17th century, the<BR>
old Hansa trade circuits basically disappeared - the Dutch could always pay<BR>
cash up front for everything, and they revolutionised Baltic trade (Poland's<BR>
economy and society got reorganised to the benefit of the Dutch - the<BR>
'Second Serfdom' saw the 'collectivisation' of the Polish peasantry into<BR>
large noble-owned estates, in order to maximise the exportable grain surplus<BR>
that went up the river to Danzig for re-export to Holland, and from their to<BR>
anywhere that paid top price).<BR>
<BR>
I'm not an expert in the period, but I think the series of wars in Germany<BR>
in this period (Martin Luther, Charles V, the Peasants Revolt, the Thirty<BR>
Years War and all that) did not do good things for the small independant<BR>
city states.<BR>
<BR>
The revolution in military affairs of the 16th century (basically, modern<BR>
artillery meant every damn fortress in Europe had to be rebuilt or<BR>
abandoned) didnt help, as it raised the cost of war to a stage where<BR>
independant cities (even rich ones like Venice or Genoa) just couldnt<BR>
compete.<BR>
<BR>
To drag this Ob-Trav ...<BR>
<BR>
I think a place for a Hansa-type collection of independant trading cities<BR>
would be Foreven sector, with the Imperial megacorps responding to the<BR>
apparent de facto Imperial annexation of District 268/ 5 Sisters by<BR>
aggresively moving into the established Foreven trade circuits.<BR>
<BR>
At the same time you have exports of Imperial-surplus military technology<BR>
changing the old military balance of power in Foreven sector.<BR>
<BR>
I dont imagine the Zhodani would like this, but given the 5FW saw the<BR>
destruction of the Sword Worlds as an effective ally with no corresponding<BR>
advantage to the Consulate, I dont think they want to put on a sixth war any<BR>
time soon.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:00:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 18:29 -0400 25/5/00, howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng) wrote:<BR>
>Midway was important because it killed the majority of the skilled,<BR>
>experience naval aviators the Japanese had.  The Solomon Campaign finished<BR>
>the trend.<BR>
<BR>
You know you read too much Traveller when you read that last bit as <BR>
'The Solomani Campaign'.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (reading too much Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:57:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 05:37 PM 5/25/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>You are both wrong.  Name ONE (1) drydock the US lost at Pearl Harbor due to<BR>
>battle damage.  <BR>
<BR>
The drydock facility at Ford Island was destroyed.  I heard this from a man<BR>
who was inside it when the first bombs fell.<BR>
<BR>
It was the smallest of the facilities, made to repair/refit small craft<BR>
like landing craft.<BR>
<BR>
>And while the ~2,000 was not light, it was NOT enormously significant (I do<BR>
>not recall the USN suffering for a from a general personnel shortage due to<BR>
>losses, for example.).<BR>
<BR>
The numbers weren't important, but who was killed was.  We lost legions of<BR>
skilled NCOs and officers.  Sure we could fill the basic slots, but we had<BR>
to promote frankly unqualified sailors far above their level of training.<BR>
<BR>
>Midway was important because it killed the majority of the skilled,<BR>
>experience naval aviators the Japanese had.  The Solomon Campaign finished<BR>
>the trend.<BR>
<BR>
Losing four carriers didn't help!  We crippled their ability to project<BR>
power. That was more of a factor in putting the IJN on the defensive than<BR>
the long term effect of pilot loss.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:00:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
At 01:07 PM 5/25/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
><BR>
>Why do you say that Doug?<BR>
<BR>
Magic allowed us to anticipate the Midway campaign, and plan a trap.<BR>
Without the intercepts, we have to spread the fleet across to much<BR>
territory.  The Japanese probably take Midway, and can begin land based<BR>
bombing of Oahu.  We lose Hawaii.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:45:16 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: TML Rules<BR>
<BR>
Seems to me that the problem with rules on the TML is that annoying fools do<BR>
not think they apply. In truth, I think what we all need is not external<BR>
rules but a little self-regulation. TML is about Traveller, we all like<BR>
Traveller. We're here to talk about Traveller and related stuff, and<BR>
occasionally to wander off into silliness and off-topic but interesting<BR>
discussions. In my opinion, that's OK.<BR>
<BR>
What's not OK (I believe) is behaving in a manner that would risk physical<BR>
injury were you actually in my presence. It's very easy to be abusive when<BR>
you're X Thousands of miles away. Those who like to refer to others as not<BR>
being "men" ought to think about the implications of shouting insults from a<BR>
hidden location in another country. Real Manly, that.<BR>
<BR>
There are members of the list comunity I disagree with, there are those I<BR>
consider friends (I disagree with many of them, too). There are many, many<BR>
that I respect, even if I don't know their names. And, sadly, there are a<BR>
few that persist in annoying me. Ah well, I can live with that. Even<BR>
annoying people sometime make a good point.<BR>
<BR>
The bottom line is that we're all on the same side. It's nice to see<BR>
self-restraint and respect when participating in the TML community - like<BR>
the way most of us behave quite voluntarily. But the proposed rules are, I<BR>
think, worthless because the decent folks are already being civil and the<BR>
fools will just keep a-trolling along.<BR>
<BR>
So, if we have rules, they should be simple and enforced.<BR>
<BR>
How about this: Abusive conduct (and I cite Mr Legion's "boy" speech as well<BR>
as his "Only I can call you a moron" statement as prime examples) gets one<BR>
warning, then results in immediate suspension from the list for, say, 30<BR>
days. Repeated offenses result in permanent removal.<BR>
<BR>
I think we can tolerate folks that have to be reminded to play nice once<BR>
every few months, but there MUST be a line drawn between "I totally disagree<BR>
and here's why I think that...." and "You're a F***wit"<BR>
<BR>
Any set of list rules must be clear, simple and *enforced* else they only<BR>
apply to the good guys.<BR>
<BR>
The alternative is to drop the rules idea and just ignore those who like to<BR>
be abusive. They'll go play elsewhere once they get bored.<BR>
<BR>
Feel free to disagree. Just don't get abusive about it. (wry grin).<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:46:44 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Dim Memory<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember seeing an ad for a Hammers' Slammers game, a very long<BR>
time ago (1984? 85?). Anyone got any details???<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:27:51 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
"Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >>> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> 05/25/00 02:16PM >>><BR>
> The environment here on the TML has been getting a bit<BR>
> hostile lately. Therefore I propose the<BR>
> following rules, which I have seen work well elsewhere.<BR>
> 1) All off topic threads are limited in length to 3 days<BR>
> (72 hours) from first posting. <BR>
> 2) All off topic threads are to be clearly labeled.<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm.....does that mean that we now have 72 hours to respond to this thread?<BR>
<BR>
No because 1) we have not yet adopted these rules and<BR>
2) It is generally held on most lists I am familiar with <BR>
that discussions of the list itself are on topic.<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry,...couldn't resist.<BR>
> It really does not sound like a bad idea.  Although I am not sure where you draw the line at signal to noise ratio.<BR>
> Seems to me that is a more subjective judgement.  But that is just me.<BR>
<BR>
It is subjective. The subjective judgment of everyone who<BR>
unsubscibes due to high acrimony, low content, and high<BR>
volume. I don't want to loose them. I want to see more<BR>
Traveller stuff. Normally I just page down when I see stuff I<BR>
am not interested in but some others are driven away.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:27:22 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
On 25 May 00, at 3:45, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Also, 3E will be using a modified form of GH as the default.<BR>
> > Lastly, it is Lolth. Using Lloth is a rant invitation, which of course<BR>
> > usually leads to a flame somewhere along the line, on lists with<BR>
> > hardcore 'Hawkers.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well if TSR/WOTC can't proofread their products better, why<BR>
> would anyone think it is worth discussing, let alone mentioning,<BR>
> given the frequent typo nature of email.<BR>
<BR>
From what I remember Grayhawk is pre-printing press, and the literacy <BR>
rate is not very high. Therefore IMO the locals probably don't have a <BR>
consistent spelling for just about any word, and regional dialects will <BR>
remove any chance of a consistent pronounciation or even name, so I say <BR>
spell and say it however you like. I do :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:27:22 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
On 24 May 00, at 19:52, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:59 PM 5/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >Is there a list somewhere of the common acronyms used on the TML.  I must<BR>
> >admit that I am lost on a few of them.  Please enlighten me!<BR>
> <BR>
> IMTU: In My Traveller Universe.  This is how I run my games, which may be<BR>
> different from the official history.<BR>
> <BR>
> OTU: Official Traveller Universe.  The story as written in published<BR>
> sources.<BR>
> <BR>
> CT: Classic Traveller.  The little black book (LBB) period, 1977-1987.<BR>
> <BR>
> MT: MegaTraveller.  The second version of Traveller<BR>
> <BR>
> TNE: Traveller: The New Era.  Third edition.<BR>
> <BR>
> T4: Marc Miller's Traveller.  4th edition, with major problems.<BR>
> <BR>
> T4.1: The bug-squished rules, available several places on the net.<BR>
> <BR>
> T5: The next edition, which Marc is writing as we speak.<BR>
> <BR>
> GT: GURPS Traveller.  Published by Steve Jackson Games (SJG)<BR>
> <BR>
> DGP: Digest Group Publications.  Past producer of some great products,<BR>
> currently their product line is held by Roger Sanger (spit), who refuses<BR>
> to license the materials.<BR>
> <BR>
> FF&S: Fire, Fusion and Steel.  Sets of meta-rules for both TNE and T4.<BR>
> Covered the design of weapons, vehicles and starships.  FF&S2 refers to<BR>
> the T4 edition.<BR>
> <BR>
> Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.<BR>
<BR>
Plus an assortment of more specific ones:<BR>
<BR>
HG - High Guard, the (big) ship design and combat system for CT.<BR>
<BR>
TCS - Trillion Credit Squadron, fleet actions and campaigns using HG.<BR>
<BR>
BL - Brilliant Lances, starship combat for TNE.<BR>
<BR>
BR - Battle Rider, large ship, large scale starship combat for TNE.<BR>
<BR>
PoT - Path of Tears, the basic setting info and world writeups for <BR>
TNE's Reformation Coalition.<BR>
<BR>
RCEG - Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide, equipment for TNE, <BR>
specifically the Reformation Coalition.<BR>
<BR>
M0 - Melieu Zero, the setting book for T4.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:27:22 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Officers<BR>
<BR>
On 25 May 00, at 18:24, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > Not only that, but look at the craft the Navy operates.  On a single<BR>
> > Tigress, the pilots of the fighter wing account for 300 officers (or 600<BR>
> > if  the fighters are crewed by two people).<BR>
> <BR>
> Pilots, and definitely crew, do not have to be officers.<BR>
> <BR>
> While this is the case in smaller airforces, such as NZ, it was not the<BR>
> case for the Soviet Air Force, or for other air forces in the past.<BR>
><BR>
> > Then, add up all the 'small' ships<BR>
> > and SDBs of the sub 2000 ton range.<BR>
> > How many SDBs are there in a  defended<BR>
> > system?  Each one will likely have 2-<BR>
> > 4 officers, even if they are O4 and below.<BR>
> <BR>
> Why ?<BR>
> <BR>
> It is common in earth navies for small craft to be commanded by NCOs.<BR>
> <BR>
> If the SDB is large enough to require an officer, then fine, but there's<BR>
> no reason for a ship with a crew of less than ten to have more than one<BR>
> officer, if any.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH there's no reason for the 3I and member states not to have a lot <BR>
more officers than we usually do. CT chargen (not counting the <BR>
advanced), certainly produces a lot of officers, and it's quite clear <BR>
that they are the skilled ones. Perhaps the enlisted personnel are only <BR>
used for crap, semi-skilled work (which would explain the mutiny <BR>
problem the Navy had).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:27:22 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
On 25 May 00, at 0:02, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For the cryptographic side of things, David Kahn's "The Codebreakers"<BR>
> covers it *very* well. Check out the unabridged hardback from the library,<BR>
> because it costs over $60 new!<BR>
<BR>
Wow. My old man's got a battered paperback copy just sitting on the <BR>
shelf.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:33:41 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 25 May 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > the hostility level might go down. Therefore I propose the<BR>
> > following rules, which I have seen work well elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
> I second them.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if the TML is really a 'Moved and seconded'<BR>
kind of place [1] but thank you. I was thinking more along the lines<BR>
of getting many people to agree, having them adopt it as their<BR>
practice, waiting until it becomes a consensus reality and then<BR>
adding it to the FAQ, and then and only then politely reminding<BR>
people, possibly off list, that "It is the general policy on<BR>
the TML to "insert list rule here'.<BR>
<BR>
[1] If I though that it was I suppose that this would be a good<BR>
time to 'Call for unanimous consent' or "Move that the proposal<BR>
be accepted by acclamation'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:37:58 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (now OT:)<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I suspect that most client states will have few people who<BR>
> _don't_ understand the above, and none of those will be in<BR>
> positions of power... Consider that while the Soviet Union<BR>
> outright annexed Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, they never<BR>
> attempted the same with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania,<BR>
> Bulgaria, or East Germany...<BR>
<BR>
IIRC Bulgaria asked to join the Soviet Union around 1951 and<BR>
Stalin turned them down at least partially because by keeping<BR>
Bulgaria 'independent' he had an extra vote in the UN.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:59:10 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I suspect a lot of people would read it this way but to me<BR>
> "Psionics has proven incapable of interplanetary ranges" is not<BR>
> equal to "Psionics has proven incapable of interplanetary or<BR>
> greater ranges." Therefore, according to the exact letter of<BR>
> the written text without interjecting my own interpretations,<BR>
> Psionics is capable of being used at System [Range 14] and<BR>
> Substellar [Range 15]. YMMV<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Heh, that sounds like a stretch to me.  I would even call it rules lawyering ;)<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> If I accepted that Psionics had a speed then to me _not_ calculating<BR>
> the time would probably ruin the atmosphere of the game. The game is<BR>
> supposed to model a reality and making up the details of that<BR>
> reality, rather than calculating them according to the games written<BR>
> rules, would destroy my 'willing suspension of disbelief'. If<BR>
> the Referee is just going to make up things that are covered by game<BR>
> rules or real world physics than you might as well put your Traveller<BR>
> books away sit back and let the GM tell a story, not play a game.<BR>
<BR>
With that line of thinking, why not calculate the trajectory of every single<BR>
ricocheting bullet in a gun fight?  It would be more realistic that way.  What<BR>
about calculating tire-wear on traveling vehicles?  There are a *ton* of other<BR>
things you could calculate during the game in order to make it more realistic. <BR>
But the more you do it, the game becomes more of an exercise in<BR>
physics/mathematics rather than a game.  The more you use dice and rules to<BR>
handle things the more it becomes a ROLL-playing game and not a ROLE-playing<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
But if you prefer to calculate and look up every detail, more power to you if<BR>
that is your cup of tea.  Each to their own.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, the rules do state "Psionic activity, at the ranges given, is<BR>
effectively instantaneous".  But if the GM says they travel at the speed of<BR>
sound, then they travel at the speed of sound.  Deal with it or find a new game.<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
I'm just here to play the game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:17:57 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (with some OT Constitutional content)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000 18:47:04 -0400 (EDT), Steve Daniels<BR>
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The Constitution has nothing specifically prohibiting secession.<BR>
<BR>
>Would you expect it to?  Even if it delineated the rules for leaving<BR>
>the Union, wouldn't it be irrelevant since you can quit anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Mmmm... No, they wouldn't be irrelevant, because they specify the<BR>
process needed to quit.  If you don't quit by the rules, you're<BR>
not really quitting - and the case could then be made that the<BR>
Government could take action to enforce those rules (i.e., you<BR>
could have a Civil War if South Carolina doesn't follow the quit<BR>
rules - but if they go through the defined process, the U.S.<BR>
_must_ let them go).  Of course, if you break the rules, and can<BR>
ratify them on the battlefield, then yes, they might become<BR>
irrelevant.  But they are not prima facia irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
>> This is the first ObTrav, already noted: a client state<BR>
>> might have slavery. The Imperium might bring pressure to end the institution<BR>
>> (if for no other reason than the workers one parsec away who can't compete<BR>
>> with slave labor) even if the CS doesn't want to join the Imperium; the<BR>
>> Imperium might even take over and bring the CS in by force, though that<BR>
>> would probably be unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
>I should think a requirement for client-status would be the abolition<BR>
>of slavery.<BR>
<BR>
Necessarily, unless the form of the slavery is other than chattel<BR>
slavery (or can easily be converted to other than chattel<BR>
slavery).  The Warrant specifically says that chattel slavery is<BR>
a no-no.  It does not say anything about debt slavery, indenture,<BR>
peonage, or any other arrangement that is slavery without<BR>
considering the slaves to be chattels.<BR>
<BR>
>> The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant seems<BR>
>> silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from trying.<BR>
<BR>
>It isn't really silent.  The Warrant gives the Imperium the sole power<BR>
>to change the relationship with a member world.  So member worlds<BR>
>have no legal authority to change the relationship.  "The Revolution<BR>
>Will Not Be Televised."<BR>
<BR>
Correct.  You can't quit, but you can be kicked out.<BR>
<BR>
OT: There are a couple of interesting features of the<BR>
Constitution that are not often discussed, except perhaps in some<BR>
of the more abstruse discussions in classes on Constitutional<BR>
law: The first is whether the clause in the Constitution that put<BR>
it into effect for all thirteen states upon ratification by nine<BR>
was legal - the States were all members of the United States at<BR>
that point, though under the Articles of Confederation, and the<BR>
AoC, IIRC, required unanimity among the states to effect<BR>
fundamental changes in the Union.  The second is whether the<BR>
Convention that resulted in the current Constitution was even<BR>
legal - the delegates were chartered to revise the AoC, not throw<BR>
them out completely and substitute a new document; the Convention<BR>
may have in effect been a second American Revolution, though one<BR>
that was welcomed such that it did not require battlefield<BR>
ratification.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:18:00 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP world builder and character generator for TRAVELLER<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000 02:28:02 -0400 (EDT), "Talon"<BR>
<talon@skyenet.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Does anyoe know who developed these programs and if they are similar to<BR>
>exisiting software that people from the TML have produced?  It is due out in<BR>
>6 days. I may go ahead and get them and give a review for the TML unless<BR>
>someone is knowledgable about these. This is snipped from the GRIP website:<BR>
<BR>
Similar to existing software?  From the description, Heaven &<BR>
Earth (go to Downport http://www.downport.com and select the<BR>
appropriate link) meets most of the description.  To a lesser<BR>
extent, so does Jim Vassilakos's GALACTIC (see the DOS Software<BR>
page in the Computer Connection from Freelance Traveller's<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller Information Center). There are<BR>
others that also have at least some of the described<BR>
functionality; check the Computer Connection in Freelance<BR>
Traveller's Information Center.<BR>
<BR>
Now, if you're going to post this kind of stuff, FERCRISSAKES<BR>
INCLUDE URIs SO WE CAN GO FIND OUT MORE AND EVENTUALLY GET THE<BR>
DAMN THING! Sheesh!  Pardon my forthcoming relative crudeness,<BR>
but this sort of thing is as bad as a wet dream of a woman coming<BR>
on to you - and then walking away leaving you with painfully<BR>
severe tumescence.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:18:04 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000 16:31:04 -0400 (EDT), "Benyamene' ZeAbe'<BR>
Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/25/00 11:05 AM, tiamat@tsoft.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> They could also be Jewish.  You have to believe in Satan to worship him,<BR>
>> so Satanic devil worshippers would have to be either Christian or Jewish.<BR>
>> People of other religions may worship other devils, but cannot worship<BR>
>> Satan.<BR>
 <BR>
>> Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
>You forgot Islam, whose members believe in "The Adversary" as well.<BR>
<BR>
As a Jew, my understanding of my own religion (N.B., I'm by no<BR>
means a Talmudic scholar, so I may be entirely off-base) and of<BR>
Islam is that The Adversary isn't in any sense coequal with G-d;<BR>
rather, he/she/it was appointed as a "prosecutor", "public<BR>
defender", or "special master" for specific cases, such as<BR>
recounted in the story of Job.<BR>
<BR>
Certainly, while I _have_ met those who professed to be<BR>
Satanists, I have never met one from a Jewish or Moslem<BR>
background; they have invariably been from Christian - and more<BR>
specifically, evangelical - backgrounds.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:18:35 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>If he retains his starting velocity (as is Traveller canon) he<BR>
>will be racing through space at many kps and will be dead<BR>
>if he runs into a sub milligram particle but his internal body<BR>
>temperature will not have changed. It is only converting<BR>
>momentum to heat that will cook or freeze him. A simple space<BR>
>to space jump will avoid this.<BR>
<BR>
You're probably right, but...<BR>
<BR>
My understanding, from Niven, is that the heat loss/gain is from gain/loss<BR>
of potential energy...won't you gain in potential energy if you jump from<BR>
the relatively near vicinity of a star to a point 1.5 parsecs away? Your<BR>
momentum would change because the force of gravity acting on you would be<BR>
lessened, wouldn't it?<BR>
<BR>
(I dunno...my eyes glazed over a lot during high school physics...can some<BR>
one clarify this for me?)<BR>
<BR>
>> I suspect that this line was carried over from the LBBs without checking<BR>
it<BR>
>> against the revised rules, a common error in the MT texts. It makes much<BR>
>> more sense in the context of CT's maximum range of Plantetary.<BR>
<BR>
>Planetary range is up to 50,000 km in MT. If Psionics are<BR>
>speed of light than they take a full one sixth second to travel<BR>
>that distance. One sixth of a second is a very long time to<BR>
>a computer and even to humans is slow eye blink. That's<BR>
>not 'effectively instantaneous'. On the other hand 'effectively<BR>
>instantaneous' is not equal to 'instantaneous' so you may be<BR>
>right but I always read 'effectively instantaneous' to mean<BR>
>something like occurring in Plank time'<BR>
<BR>
Wow, that's *really* instaneous :)<BR>
<BR>
Note, however, that the very vast majority of jumps will be less than 16,000<BR>
km, the diameter of a size 10 world. You can't even make that jump, because<BR>
you would end up moving in the opposite direction of the world's rotation,<BR>
unless you jump from one pole to the other. This means that most jumps will<BR>
take less than 1/6 of 1/6 of a second, which is pretty damn instantaneous :)<BR>
<BR>
Jumps to orbit? Most PCs aren't going to have the equipment--heat suits,<BR>
etc. I'll concede that it's possible to make the jump, but 1/6 of a second<BR>
is fast enough IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2503<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:57:06 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:56:39 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA95074;<BR>
	Thu, 25 May 2000 21:55:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 25 May 2000 21:55:29 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA95037<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:55:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:55:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005260155.VAA95037@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2503<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2504</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/25/00 8:33:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2504<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Dim Memory (Hammer's Slammer's Game)<BR>
OT:  Scan of BT:Mercenaries Field Manual Armor<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
unsubscribe<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:07:23 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Dim Memory (Hammer's Slammer's Game)<BR>
<BR>
M J Dougherty writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I seem to remember seeing an ad for a Hammers' Slammers game, a very long<BR>
>  time ago (1984? 85?). Anyone got any details???<BR>
<BR>
I've got it, or at least most of it. It's a tabletop wargame along the lines <BR>
of SJGs Ogre/GEV (the original issue, not the recent one) with a boardgame <BR>
setup similar to Roborally (multiple boards able to be connected in various <BR>
ways, but all the same size). The playing pieces were the standard little <BR>
cardboard squares that got lost remarkably easily in the shag carpeting.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:27:28 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: OT:  Scan of BT:Mercenaries Field Manual Armor<BR>
<BR>
Could some kind soul with the BattleTech Mercenaries Field Manual and a<BR>
scanner scan me a copy of the Grey Death Legion battlearmor that appears on<BR>
the back of and inside of the book?  It has ideas I'd like to incoroporate<BR>
into the suits I'm designing on paper for Traveller and for eventual prop<BR>
production.<BR>
<BR>
Many thanks,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:28:54 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote;<BR>
>A couple of things:<BR>
<BR>
1. Most bombers used in the strategic bombing raids<BR>
were *flown* to England.  Most men and equipment<BR>
needed for the amphibious assaults needed to be<BR>
*shipped* to England.  The 8th Air Force was ready<BR>
for action long before the American (or British)<BR>
armies were ready for Normandy.<<BR>
<BR>
But most of the early 4 engine bombers were adequate to the task of tactical<BR>
bombing as well and could have been used as such. Further, the British spent<BR>
considerable sums on such aircraft as well that could have been spent on<BR>
tactical bombers or fighters.<BR>
<BR>
>2. The Atlantic Wall was already being built as<BR>
fortified positions.  By conducting a strategic<BR>
bombing campaign, the Germans were forced to<BR>
"fortify" (with AAA, air raid shelters, dispersed<BR>
factories, underground manufacturing plants, etc.)<BR>
their whole country. They even had to fortify - and<BR>
this is critically important - *areas that were<BR>
never bombed*.<<BR>
<BR>
And by concentrating on the areas being built up the build up could have<BR>
been delayed or prevented making the invasion easier.<BR>
<BR>
>If the enemy fears your bombing raids and puts<BR>
anti-aircraft guns everywhere, then even more of<BR>
his resources are expended.  A weapon placed where<BR>
it never gets anything to shoot at is almost as good<BR>
to you as a weapon you manage to destroy.<<BR>
<BR>
True, but that could have been achieved with significantly less expenditure<BR>
on the strategic offense.<BR>
<BR>
>3. American industry already had a portion of it's<BR>
factories dedicated to long range bomber production.<BR>
The B-17's "Flying Fortress" title didn't refer to<BR>
any advantage in armor or weaponry, it referred to<BR>
the task it was designed for: blowing up invasion<BR>
fleets while such fleets were crossing the Atlantic<BR>
or Pacific, making an unassailable fortress out of<BR>
the North American continent.  It would have been<BR>
significantly expensive to turn such production<BR>
towards other equipment, potentially even taking<BR>
these factories out of production for the rest of<BR>
the war.<<BR>
<BR>
And more was shifted to it during the gear up. Had no additional factories<BR>
been committed to strategic bombers but instead to tactical bombers and<BR>
fighters, then not only tactical bombing but also the limited strategic<BR>
bombing would have had significantly better fighter cover.<BR>
<BR>
So were the resources the Allies spent less than, equal to, or greater than<BR>
those expended by the Axis for defense and in losses? Could a better ratio<BR>
have been achieved with a tactical bombing campaign? (Or even totally<BR>
different expenditures?)<BR>
Traveller Comparison: Are battle riders better than battleships?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:29:45 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote;<BR>
>Actually, suicide troops aren't all that useful in many situations (troops<BR>
who never have morale failures is a separate issue).<<BR>
<BR>
True. I should have phrased it that way instead although suicide and<BR>
suicidal troops have some significant uses.<BR>
<BR>
>There are a lot of tactical situations which aren't terribly subject to<BR>
creativity on the short term, or where one human per 10 warbots is good<BR>
enough.<<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot more that do I would say.<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote;<BR>
>Such as...? IMHO, firepower is firepower. You can use surprise, good<BR>
terrain, additional equipment and the like to modify your and your<BR>
opponent's effective firepower, but finally, it comes to comparing the<BR>
"numbers".<BR>
Ten hits here, one hit there, guess who wins. Use of surprise may<BR>
effectively reduce the enemy's initial firepower, but one hit cannot<BR>
possibly kill ten targets, And then, finally, the superior enemy fires<BR>
back. The result would be hit-and-run tactics, which is a fairly known<BR>
concept, even to, I'd say, Milbot programmers...<<BR>
<BR>
Actually surprise and terrain can do a very good job of negating superior<BR>
firepower.<BR>
If the defenders get in 5 shots before the attackers get 1, and then can<BR>
negate 50% of the return shots by using cover, those 10-1 odds start turning<BR>
into 1-1 odds.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, you use sophont officers, but robot "regulars". That was what I<BR>
meant.<<BR>
<BR>
Then you just target the officers. Given the difference in race it would be<BR>
even easier for snipers to spot them. Then you totally lose command control.<BR>
<BR>
>:-) Wasn't intended to start a debate. Just a joke.<<BR>
<BR>
I know, I forgot my smiley to indicate I got it.<BR>
<BR>
>That was what I meant by mentioning technologic leaps. These haven't<BR>
happened in OTU for quite a long time- and have never been very common<BR>
in OTU's history. The Interstellar Wars were one of the few exceptions. <<BR>
<BR>
Not even tech leaps but tactical leaps. look at the difference in tech and<BR>
tactics from the Greeks to the Romans. Something on those lines with a<BR>
robot army would be devastating.<BR>
<BR>
>Are these people intended to be of any economical or political influence<BR>
in the Confederation?<BR>
If yes: Why?<<BR>
<BR>
Ask Marc Miller and John Harshman (The listed authors of AM6.), I am just<BR>
stating canon references there.<BR>
<BR>
><sigh> I don't have those.<BR>
<BR>
Is SJG planning to bring out something about the Solomani Confederation?<<BR>
<BR>
Isn't there and Aliens of the Rim product? And I'd expect stuff in Rim of<BR>
Fire about it.<BR>
<BR>
>Makes sense.<BR>
<BR>
Though I'd also think that the Hivers a very good at keeping public<BR>
opinion in the Confederation in favor of them...<<BR>
<BR>
Heh. I bet they are.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:55:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
<<PS: Not being a US Citizen, I don't know this - if a<BR>
>State of the Union wanted to quit, could it legally?<BR>
>Isn't that what the American Civil War was about?>><BR>
><BR>
>Although this should probably be answered off-list (it's bad enough I<BR>
>started that whole O'Brien the Enlisted Trekker thread :) it occured to me<BR>
>that there is an ObTrav, so here goes:<BR>
><BR>
>Secession of a state from the federal Union has never been proven de jure.<BR>
>Southern theory at the time held that since the Constitution was ratified<BR>
by<BR>
>states, not by the people living in them, that they should therefore be<BR>
able<BR>
>to pull out. It was also argued that the 10th amendment (IIRC) reserves all<BR>
>rights to the states not specifically allocated to the Federal government.<BR>
>The Constitution has nothing specifically prohibiting secession. which is<BR>
>mute on the whole proposition. IMHO, both arguments are flawed, but the<BR>
>issue has never been ruled upon by the Supreme Court, which has<BR>
jurisdiction<BR>
>over Constitutional law (After the Civil War, the Supreme Court issued a<BR>
>ruling that said secession was in fact illegal, but IIRC the test case was<BR>
>limited and the decision was considered political.)<BR>
<BR>
An interesting aside is that Jefferson (who wrote the Declaration of<BR>
Independence, but was not involved in the writing of the Constitution)<BR>
believed that States could leave the Union. (Based on some of his<BR>
correspondence with Adams.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, the real cause of the conflict was the two different economic<BR>
>systems, slave-based and "free" labor; without that, there would have not<BR>
>been anything close to the kind of dispute. This is not to imply<BR>
Northerners<BR>
>were raving abolitionists any more than Southerners were despotic slavers;<BR>
>just that the nature of their societies were critically opposed based on<BR>
>their labor systems. This is the first ObTrav, already noted: a client<BR>
state<BR>
>might have slavery. The Imperium might bring pressure to end the<BR>
institution<BR>
>(if for no other reason than the workers one parsec away who can't compete<BR>
>with slave labor) even if the CS doesn't want to join the Imperium; the<BR>
>Imperium might even take over and bring the CS in by force, though that<BR>
>would probably be unlikely.<BR>
><BR>
>As for client state status being one-way, I'm pretty sure that's how the<BR>
>Romans practiced it, and there's no reason to suppose the Imperium does<BR>
>differently. It may be possible to change the agreement, but it will surely<BR>
>exist at the pleasure of the Imperium, or at least as long as it's less<BR>
>expensive to keep the CS than let it go...<BR>
><BR>
>The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant seems<BR>
>silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from<BR>
trying.<BR>
>The parallel case in the Solomani Confederation (see recent TNS posts)<BR>
seems<BR>
>to be on better legalistic grounds, given the nature of the Confederation.<BR>
>On the other hand, the Solomani are probably going to be much more<BR>
>aggressive in their response than the Imperium would be...<BR>
<BR>
The whole Solomani Confederation left the Imperium. I believe this caused<BR>
the Rim War. I don't know that their response would be as aggressive in the<BR>
case of an individual world, but I suspect that it would depend on the<BR>
Archduke of the relevant Domain.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:54:56 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote,<BR>
>Why do you say that Doug?<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that given the significantly higher productivity<BR>
of the US that it could have defeated Japan fairly handily<BR>
without Magic (even while spending most of its resources<BR>
in Europe). I am sure that casualties would have been<BR>
higher without Magic but Japan simply did not have the<BR>
resources for a prolonged war. The US could have survived<BR>
having its ships, planes, and soldiers blown up for longer<BR>
than the Japanese could have. Moreover the US would have been<BR>
well fed during all this while the Japanese would not.<<BR>
<BR>
Unless they were deployed in an inferior manner due to lack of intelligence<BR>
and destroyed piecemeal.<BR>
But why wouldn't Japan have been well fed?<BR>
<BR>
Cheng Tseng wrote;<BR>
>You are both wrong.  Name ONE (1) drydock the US lost at Pearl Harbor due<BR>
to<BR>
battle damage.<BR>
And while the ~2,000 was not light, it was NOT enormously significant (I do<BR>
not recall the USN suffering for a from a general personnel shortage due to<BR>
losses, for example.).<<BR>
<BR>
No navy ever has enough command officers or experienced NCOs. Especially<BR>
given that the U.S. was going to expand from a  peacetime status to a<BR>
wartime status, they would have  felt it sooner rather than later.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn wrote;<BR>
>Makes me wonder what would have happened if the Japanese had never attacked<BR>
Pearl or other US protectorates/possessions int he Pacific. Would the<BR>
sleeping giant ever have woken up to the trouble in Europe?<<BR>
<BR>
That is the $64,000 question of course.<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry wrote;<BR>
>Magic allowed us to anticipate the Midway campaign, and plan a trap.<BR>
Without the intercepts, we have to spread the fleet across to much<BR>
territory.  The Japanese probably take Midway, and can begin land based<BR>
bombing of Oahu.  We lose Hawaii.<<BR>
<BR>
Lose as in conquer or lose as in useless as a forward base?<BR>
I wouldn't bank on occupation but I'd go with the other and definitely agree<BR>
with that as the major factor with Midway.<BR>
<BR>
>Losing four carriers didn't help!  We crippled their ability to project<BR>
power. That was more of a factor in putting the IJN on the defensive than<BR>
the long term effect of pilot loss.<<BR>
<BR>
And that as the more significant loss. Although the Japanese had a<BR>
persistent shortage of pilots/aircraft forcing them to operate several<BR>
carriers with less than full complements as the war progressed. Still, no<BR>
carriers means less force projection. You can't hold territory without<BR>
troops.<BR>
Which of course is why I contend that blowing up ordnance is better than<BR>
blowing up factories. Especially when it comes to capital assets.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:54:30 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
>At 01:07 PM 5/25/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Why do you say that Doug?<BR>
><BR>
>Magic allowed us to anticipate the Midway campaign, and plan a trap.<BR>
>Without the intercepts, we have to spread the fleet across to much<BR>
>territory.  The Japanese probably take Midway, and can begin land based<BR>
>bombing of Oahu.  We lose Hawaii.<BR>
<BR>
Compare the forces the Japanese would have been able to base on Midway.<BR>
<BR>
Compare the supply lines to the island from Tokyo, and the available facilities.<BR>
<BR>
Compare what facilities, materials, and forces the US had in Hawaii.<BR>
<BR>
Something does not look right with your assertion, aside from the fact that<BR>
few Japanese ever thought of it in that way.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:59:15 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: unsubscribe<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:56:22 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
All this talk of bombing cities seems to overlook one thing...<BR>
at the time, there wasn't much of an alternative.  You could<BR>
bomb airports and military units, but unless you destroyed the<BR>
means to produce military equipment and soldiers, they would<BR>
just be replaced.  Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example,<BR>
were military targets.  One housed a shipyard and I forget<BR>
what the other had.  Many of the cities in Germany had factories<BR>
and factory workers and other resources used to support the<BR>
military.<BR>
<BR>
Now, the US has the luxury of high-tech smart bombs and no<BR>
enemy capable of threatening its home soil so it can take<BR>
the time carefully pick off all military hardware and leave<BR>
civilians alone.  In a more closely matched war, you don't<BR>
have time for that.  You have to destroy the enemies ability<BR>
to make war, including factories which can make farm<BR>
equipment which can also make tanks.  A close example is<BR>
my company, which makes oilfield equipment.  During WWII,<BR>
it made bomb casings.  Same goes for similar German factories.<BR>
<BR>
Morale is also important and bombing major cities into<BR>
rubble can reduce the will, in some cases.  Also, I believe<BR>
that American bombers often dropped leaflets over future<BR>
target areas...  not sure of the details of this.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:02:53 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>At 05:37 PM 5/25/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>You are both wrong.  Name ONE (1) drydock the US lost at Pearl Harbor due to<BR>
>>battle damage.  <BR>
><BR>
>The drydock facility at Ford Island was destroyed.  I heard this from a man<BR>
>who was inside it when the first bombs fell.<BR>
><BR>
>It was the smallest of the facilities, made to repair/refit small craft<BR>
>like landing craft.<BR>
<BR>
I would like independant confirmation of this before I believe it.<BR>
Everything I read never said this.<BR>
<BR>
>>And while the ~2,000 was not light, it was NOT enormously significant (I do<BR>
>>not recall the USN suffering for a from a general personnel shortage due to<BR>
>>losses, for example.).<BR>
><BR>
>The numbers weren't important, but who was killed was.  We lost legions of<BR>
>skilled NCOs and officers.  Sure we could fill the basic slots, but we had<BR>
>to promote frankly unqualified sailors far above their level of training.<BR>
<BR>
Excuse me?  How many officers and NCO did we lose at Pearl Harbor?  I don't<BR>
think there was a greater number then in a normal action (And probably fewer<BR>
then a carrier engagement, where both sides are using their air wings.).<BR>
<BR>
Indeed, much of the wartime promotion that could be described the way you<BR>
say, came because of the SCALE of the general expansion of the navy.  You<BR>
are describing the wartime situation of the JAPANESE Navy more then anything<BR>
else.<BR>
<BR>
>>Midway was important because it killed the majority of the skilled,<BR>
>>experience naval aviators the Japanese had.  The Solomon Campaign finished<BR>
>>the trend.<BR>
><BR>
>Losing four carriers didn't help!  We crippled their ability to project<BR>
>power. That was more of a factor in putting the IJN on the defensive than<BR>
>the long term effect of pilot loss.<BR>
<BR>
The Japanese managed to replace the carrier losses eventually.  And much of<BR>
the operating conditions of actions later in the way allow the Japanese to<BR>
reduce dependence on carriers.<BR>
<BR>
The experienced avaitors was a literally irreplaceable asset, that combined<BR>
with their training policies, was a loss the Japanese COULD NOT afford.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:16:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
>Devil worship implies belief in devils.<BR>
<BR>
Yes. That's been established and I don't disagree.<BR>
<BR>
>If you don't believe that Satan exists, how can you be a Satanist?<BR>
<BR>
Obviously.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, what this really proves is that "Satanists" by and large don't<BR>
>exist.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this has nothing to do with whether or not Satanists exist and<BR>
everything to do with whether or not one who believes in the primacy of<BR>
Satan, in some form or another, can be called a Christian (as both you and<BR>
Evyn contend) or a Jew (as you contend). This doesn't seem to be the case.<BR>
<BR>
>There are a very, very, VERY few people who claim to be Satanists, usually<BR>
because<BR>
>they want to attract attention to themselves and piss people off.<BR>
<BR>
Honestly, I could care less whether there are two people or a billion who<BR>
claim to be Satanists. This was not at issue.<BR>
<BR>
>But really, to accept Satan implies the acceptance of the<BR>
Judeo-Christian-Islamic<BR>
>pantheon in one of its three primary manifestations.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, no. Christianity, Judaism and Islam (as well most religions, with the<BR>
exception, I suppose, of some strains of neo-Paganism) are not merely a case<BR>
of "picking" a "pantheon".<BR>
<BR>
>To accept this, and to choose the losing side to worship, is a rather odd<BR>
thing to do.<BR>
<BR>
Satan isn't on the "losing side" in Judaism, nor is it possible to imagine a<BR>
strain of Judaism (which most rational people would still call Judaism) in<BR>
which the Primacy of the "accusing angel" is acknowledged. Similarly,<BR>
whether the notion of Satanism is a mere inversion of Christianity (as the<BR>
church accused folks of in the middle ages) or a religion based on a<BR>
celebration of selfishness and notions of "social Darwinism" (modern<BR>
Satanism as originated by Anton LaVey) the belief in the importance of the<BR>
saving grace of Christ (a defining characteristic of Christianity) as an<BR>
intermediary between mankind and the creator is necessarily missing. Without<BR>
a belief in the saving grace of Christ, it's difficult to define someone as<BR>
a Christian.<BR>
<BR>
>Most of the people whom Christians like to refer to as "satanists" are<BR>
>actually nothing of the sort.  They are worshipping something completely<BR>
>outside the J-C-I paradigm. Many Christians like to say that since<BR>
>they believe nothing outside the Christian paradigm exists, we must all be<BR>
>worshipping Satan.  That's a) not a nice thing to say b) not provable and<BR>
>c) a smear and a slur frequently used by fundamentalists to get other<BR>
>Christians not to listen to people of other, non-Book faiths.  Most of the<BR>
>ex-Satanists who turn up on TV talking about how they used to be Satanic<BR>
>"witches" but were then saved by Jesus were just messed-up kids who liked<BR>
>to claim they were Satanists to piss off their folks and were always<BR>
>secretly a bit Christian.  Or else they're ridiculous frauds, like Mike<BR>
>Warnke and the people that say whole giant families in the midwest have<BR>
>been secretly sexually abusing all their kids, force-breeding their kids,<BR>
>and murdering the resulting babies for generations without anyone<BR>
>noticing.<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't matter. It's a moot point, and I can see no possible way in which<BR>
this is relevant to the topic at hand, besides saying that some people, who<BR>
some Christians brand as Satanists, are nothing of the sort. It has been<BR>
clear from the outset, as well as your initial response to Evyn's post that<BR>
we were talking about people who believe in the primacy of an entity known<BR>
as "Satan". I said nothing to indicate that I was talking about<BR>
neo-paganism, Shintoism, Hinduism, Wicca, or anything of the sort.<BR>
<BR>
>> While it's obvious that one would have to believe in Satan to worship<BR>
such<BR>
>> an entity, you're wrong on the second count, unless you're working under<BR>
odd<BR>
>> definitions of Christianity, Judaism and Satanism. In the case of<BR>
Judaism,<BR>
>> see above. In the case of Christianity, my previous post in response to<BR>
Evyn<BR>
>> should illustrate my objections.<BR>
><BR>
>I think I disagree with you.<BR>
<BR>
Then I guess you're wrong. Please keep reading before getting into a snit,<BR>
as this isn't quite as arrogant as it sounds right now, since it seems that<BR>
you have amended your position since the beginning.<BR>
<BR>
>I didn't read your post to Evyn,<BR>
<BR>
Not only are you wrong, but you're willing to disagree without reading what<BR>
is it I said. This is also rather rude.<BR>
<BR>
>but I've noticed that GENERALLY, Christians dislike this theory and<BR>
non-Christians<BR>
>think it is obvious that acceptance of Satan implies acceptance of the<BR>
Christian<BR>
>paradigm making Satanism one of the religions of the J-C-I constellation--<BR>
if you<BR>
>are going to view Satanism as a religion at all, which it basically isn't.<BR>
<BR>
It seems like what you're saying now is that Satanism is linked and shares<BR>
some degree of common ground with Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I would<BR>
not disagree with this statement at all. It's also not the position which<BR>
Evyn stated, which is that one must be a Christian to be a Satanist, or<BR>
which you modified: one must be a Christian or a Jew to be a Satanist.<BR>
<BR>
I will agree that any form of Satanism which might exist could only descend<BR>
from a religion in which Satan has a place. This much is plainly obvious.<BR>
It's also not what you, nor Evyn, actually said. However, such a religion<BR>
would be different enough from Christianity, Judaism or Islam to no longer<BR>
be Christianity, Judaism or Islam, which was precisely what I've said from<BR>
the very beginning.<BR>
<BR>
As an example, a current and commonly held understanding of the origins of<BR>
Judaism is that the God of the pre-Jewish Hebrews was a "household god",<BR>
worshipped in ancient Mesopotamia by Avram and others. To say that the<BR>
Jewish god descended from the matrix of gods and goddesses in ancient<BR>
Mesopotamia would be entirely correct. To say, however, that Judaism *is*<BR>
simply a belief in the sycretic ancient Mesopotamian pantheon would be<BR>
incorrect. Similarly, Christianity descended from Judaism, but to say that<BR>
Christians *are* Jews would be incorrect (and which is something you don't<BR>
appear to believe as you, yourself, distinguished Judaism and Christianity<BR>
in your initial response to Evyn).<BR>
<BR>
In any religion which would be called Satanism, the exact same figures which<BR>
appear in Judaism and Christianity may very well be used. However,<BR>
individual narratives would be understood differently, the intellectual<BR>
underpinnings would be completely different and the practices and<BR>
observances of such a religion would be completely different. In short, it<BR>
would no longer be Christianity, Judaism or Islam, but a different religion.<BR>
<BR>
>Typically, Satanists are bored kids, lone psychos, or attention seekers in<BR>
the<BR>
>entertainment or ceremonial magick fields. They don't have anything<BR>
remotely like a<BR>
>consistent theology, except for the Luciferian Gnostics who are definitely<BR>
an<BR>
>offshoot of Gnostic Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
All of this is moot, really. Who Satanists are or might be is beyond the<BR>
scope of the discussion. Incidentally, I've never said anything which would<BR>
have disagreed with anything I've quoted above.<BR>
<BR>
>> Seems like a rather spurious statement, given that one cannot be a<BR>
>> Satanic-Christian, or Satanic-Jew.<BR>
>><BR>
>I'd say you couldn't be anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Then you'd be wrong.<BR>
<BR>
>To believe that Satan, the great defier, exists, you must believe he has<BR>
got<BR>
>someone to defy.<BR>
<BR>
So what? As I've pointed out, the role Satan has in Judaism is such that any<BR>
offshoot of Judaism which believed in the primacy of the "accusing angel"<BR>
would no longer be Judaism. any offshoot of Christianity which believed in<BR>
the primacy of the "evil principle" would no longer be Christianity. Many<BR>
figures from Judaism (Satan, Job, Adam, Eve, God, etc.) also appear in<BR>
Christianity, which makes perfect sense. They appear in different roles and<BR>
different ways. Job, perhaps the most striking example, is interpreted in<BR>
very different ways by Jews and Christians.<BR>
<BR>
Intellectually, mythologically and practically Christianity, Islam and<BR>
Judaism differ, just as Satanism, whether real or imagined, would<BR>
necessarily have to differ from all of them.<BR>
<BR>
>You certainly can't be a Satanic Wiccan or a Satanic Buddhist or a Satanic<BR>
>Shintoist or a Satanic Hindu!  (While the notion of a universal feminist<BR>
>Old Religion is pure poppycock from a historical perspective, there is<BR>
>nothing remotely Satanist about it!)<BR>
<BR>
ARGH! Who cares? None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand.<BR>
What really pisses me off here is that I never said that one *could* be a<BR>
Satanic-Wiccan, a Satanic-Buddhist, a Satanic-Shintoist or a Satanic-Hindu,<BR>
merely that one couldn't be a Satanic-Christian or a Satanic-Jew (and I<BR>
would add Satanic-Muslim). My contention from the beginning, and I was very<BR>
clear about this, was that anybody who could reasonably be called a Satanist<BR>
could *not* be called a Christian or a Jew. That's all. Very simple. To<BR>
disagree with that is to misunderstand Christianity, Judaism and the role of<BR>
Satan within these religions. At what point you got it into your head that<BR>
this in some way was related to whether or not some Christians call those<BR>
they see as their enemies "Satanists" is beyond me, and truly baffling, and<BR>
this last bit comes from *way*, *way* out in left field, since I never said<BR>
anything at all about Wiccans, Buddhists, Shintoists or Hindus! Never! Not<BR>
once!<BR>
<BR>
Not at *any* point!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:34:12 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen (me) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>> The Constitution has nothing specifically prohibiting secession.<BR>
<BR>
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Would you expect it to?  Even if it delineated the rules for leaving<BR>
>>the Union, wouldn't it be irrelevant since you can quit anyway?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> replies:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Mmmm... No, they wouldn't be irrelevant, because they specify the<BR>
process needed to quit.  If you don't quit by the rules, you're<BR>
not really quitting - and the case could then be made that the<BR>
Government could take action to enforce those rules (i.e., you<BR>
could have a Civil War if South Carolina doesn't follow the quit<BR>
rules - but if they go through the defined process, the U.S.<BR>
_must_ let them go).  Of course, if you break the rules, and can<BR>
ratify them on the battlefield, then yes, they might become<BR>
irrelevant.  But they are not prima facia irrelevant.<<<<BR>
<BR>
True, but even if you obey the rules, you can get a problem of the minority<BR>
dictating to the majority: cave in to our demands, or we'll follow the rules<BR>
and quit. Unless you make the rules tough enough.<BR>
<BR>
Me, I would think that you'd have to reverse the entire ratification<BR>
procedure: not merely repudiate your own ratification, but convince 3/4 of<BR>
the states to let you go. Or amend the Constitution (which needs 3/4 of the<BR>
states as well.) But nobody asked me at the time, not that they'd have<BR>
listened ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> again:<BR>
<BR>
>>I should think a requirement for client-status would be the abolition<BR>
>>of slavery.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Necessarily, unless the form of the slavery is other than chattel<BR>
slavery (or can easily be converted to other than chattel<BR>
slavery).  The Warrant specifically says that chattel slavery is<BR>
a no-no.  It does not say anything about debt slavery, indenture,<BR>
peonage, or any other arrangement that is slavery without<BR>
considering the slaves to be chattels.<<<<BR>
<BR>
I dunno, I'm not convinced that this would have to be the case, though since<BR>
everybody else seems to think so, maybe I'm missing something. I suppose if<BR>
the Client State had enough pull, for strategic or other reasons, they might<BR>
keep their slaver status. But surely an Undergroud Starship line would<BR>
develop, as slaves flee to the Imperium (which would almost assuredly not<BR>
recognize any kind of Fugitive Slave law, or Dred Scott decision; once<BR>
you're over the border, you're free.) In the long term, it would probably be<BR>
impossible to maintain a slave society in a client state, although some<BR>
people might try.<BR>
<BR>
>> The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant<BR>
seems<BR>
>> silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from<BR>
trying.<BR>
<BR>
>It isn't really silent.  The Warrant gives the Imperium the sole power<BR>
>to change the relationship with a member world.  So member worlds<BR>
>have no legal authority to change the relationship.  "The Revolution<BR>
>Will Not Be Televised."<BR>
<BR>
>>>Correct.  You can't quit, but you can be kicked out.<<<<BR>
<BR>
You can also ask to leave. No guarantee they'll let you go.<BR>
<BR>
>>>OT: There are a couple of interesting features of the<BR>
Constitution that are not often discussed, except perhaps in some<BR>
of the more abstruse discussions in classes on Constitutional<BR>
law: The first is whether the clause in the Constitution that put<BR>
it into effect for all thirteen states upon ratification by nine<BR>
was legal - the States were all members of the United States at<BR>
that point, though under the Articles of Confederation, and the<BR>
AoC, IIRC, required unanimity among the states to effect<BR>
fundamental changes in the Union.<<<<BR>
<BR>
I was under this impression as well, but Article VII says that "The<BR>
Ratification of the Conventions of nine States shall be sufficient for the<BR>
Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the<BR>
same." Doesn't that mean it would only be valid for those nine states? Or,<BR>
since it was a Constitution of the United States, would it apply to<BR>
everybody, regardless? Or would the other four be kicked out? Am I not<BR>
reading this right?<BR>
<BR>
Finally, an ObTrav (for Mileu: 0 or Pocket Empires): A local 13-world polity<BR>
has agreed to join the Imperium en masse provided 3/4 ratify the Warrant.<BR>
The PCs are agents of the "Federalists" whose goal is to make sure that the<BR>
vote is unanimous, so nobody can complain later....<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2504<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) by air-yg01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:33:43 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:33:06 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id XAA98784;<BR>
	Thu, 25 May 2000 23:31:49 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 25 May 2000 23:31:46 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id XAA98754<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:31:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:31:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005260331.XAA98754@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2504<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2505</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/25/00 11:12:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2505<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Hiver manipulations revealed<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
RE: Well fed Japanese [OT]<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: TML Rules<BR>
Re: TML Rules<BR>
Re: TML Rules<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Mutiny problem in the Imperial Navy? (was: Re: Officers)<BR>
[OT] Re: . .  Normans in Sicily and so on<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:28:58 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiver manipulations revealed<BR>
<BR>
At 10:48 PM 5/24/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I recently saw a company called "Hiverworld" (http://www.hiverworld.com/) at<BR>
>a trade show. I went over to talk to them, hoping to hear a good story<BR>
>involving Traveller about how the company came to have the name, but it<BR>
>turned out to have absolutely no connection to Traveller. This may be a<BR>
>subtle Hiver manipulation after all, for they sell Internet security<BR>
>products. Security from Hivers? I think not.<BR>
I think YES, when it comes to Computer Security.  Hivers were at least a TL <BR>
ahead in computer technology (at TL 15, they had limited AI capacity <BR>
computers).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:45:20 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams wrote;<BR>
>All this talk of bombing cities seems to overlook one thing...<BR>
at the time, there wasn't much of an alternative.  You could<BR>
bomb airports and military units, but unless you destroyed the<BR>
means to produce military equipment and soldiers, they would<BR>
just be replaced.  <<BR>
<BR>
Actually they don't, not endlessly.<BR>
True people will keep having children, but despite the Nazis wanting to<BR>
believe that a platoon of 12 year old Hitler Jugend with lugers and a<BR>
panzerfaust would not only fight but stop the Allies it just doesn't work<BR>
that way and you eventually run out of troops.<BR>
As for military ordnance, if you are spending as much in the bombs dropped<BR>
and losing more in aircraft destroyed on the raids, not to mention the<BR>
degradation of morale among aircrews the losses were causing, then you<BR>
aren't really doing much to swing the scales in your direction in that area.<BR>
So all that leaves is infrastructure destruction and civilian deaths. The<BR>
first we wound up paying to rebuild and the second is what we hanged many of<BR>
their leaders for afterwards.<BR>
There were alternatives.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:58:26 -0400<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
At 11:05 PM 05/25/2000 +0100, Ben A wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> > >>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
> > >A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist."<BR>
> > >Which is it?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > What's the difference?<BR>
> ><BR>
>Sausages<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Haggis (sp?)?  (being a bizarre form of it...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:07:50 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
<BR>
Everyone have said something  :  )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> But most of the early 4 engine bombers were adequate to the task of <BR>
tactical<BR>
> bombing as well and could have been used as such. Further, the British <BR>
spent<BR>
> considerable sums on such aircraft as well that could have been spent <BR>
on<BR>
> tactical bombers or fighters.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> >2. The Atlantic Wall was already being built as<BR>
> fortified positions.  By conducting a strategic<BR>
> bombing campaign, the Germans were forced to<BR>
> "fortify" (with AAA, air raid shelters, dispersed<BR>
> factories, underground manufacturing plants, etc.)<BR>
> their whole country. They even had to fortify - and<BR>
> this is critically important - *areas that were<BR>
> never bombed*.<<BR>
> <BR>
> And by concentrating on the areas being built up the build up could <BR>
have<BR>
> been delayed or prevented making the invasion easier.<BR>
> <BR>
> >If the enemy fears your bombing raids and puts<BR>
> anti-aircraft guns everywhere, then even more of<BR>
> his resources are expended.  A weapon placed where<BR>
> it never gets anything to shoot at is almost as good<BR>
> to you as a weapon you manage to destroy.<<BR>
> <BR>
> True, but that could have been achieved with significantly less <BR>
expenditure<BR>
> on the strategic offense.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Ok here is a few points.<BR>
<BR>
First both sides used tactical air support on the battlefield, but what I <BR>
think Sam might be looking at is the idea of a Grand tactical bombing.  He <BR>
left this stage out so he has missed it in his arguments.  <BR>
<BR>
Grand tactical bombing would hit railheads, ammunition dumps, airfields <BR>
etc.  Their objective is to isolate the battlefield.  Which during the earlier <BR>
phases of WWII was hard for the allies to do in Europe since they did <BR>
not have a battlefield, so Strategic Bombing is used, to prevent total <BR>
build up.  <BR>
<BR>
This more or less failed, data shows not only were the Germans <BR>
producing new and better weapons they produced them in greater <BR>
quantity.  So Strategic Bombing just became away for the Angelo <BR>
American forces to proof to the Soviets they were fighting, and helping <BR>
(see pt 3 of this argument).  It also aimed to hurt moral, again this just <BR>
pissed people off; since it was not total bombing except in the case of <BR>
the rare and TRADGIC fire storms and nukes.<BR>
<BR>
Now as part of D-Operations, the allies carried a very successful grand <BR>
tactical bombing operation.  It not only isolated the beach heads from all <BR>
but the small amounts of enemy reinforcements but it was planed so well <BR>
that it hid the actual location of the landing site.  <BR>
<BR>
The allies also tried it during the break out from the beachhead, this was <BR>
not so successful and resulted in friendly casualties.  It did however <BR>
scare the crap out of the German solider, and destroy tons military <BR>
hardware.  It did work nevertheless.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >3. American industry already had a portion of it's<BR>
> factories dedicated to long range bomber production.<BR>
> The B-17's "Flying Fortress" title didn't refer to<BR>
> any advantage in armor or weaponry, it referred to<BR>
> the task it was designed for: blowing up invasion<BR>
> fleets while such fleets were crossing the Atlantic<BR>
> or Pacific, making an unassailable fortress out of<BR>
> the North American continent.  It would have been<BR>
> significantly expensive to turn such production<BR>
> towards other equipment, potentially even taking<BR>
> these factories out of production for the rest of<BR>
> the war.<<BR>
> <BR>
> And more was shifted to it during the gear up. Had no additional <BR>
factories<BR>
> been committed to strategic bombers but instead to tactical bombers <BR>
and<BR>
> fighters, then not only tactical bombing but also the limited strategic<BR>
> bombing would have had significantly better fighter cover.<BR>
> <BR>
> So were the resources the Allies spent less than, equal to, or greater <BR>
than<BR>
> those expended by the Axis for defense and in losses? Could a better <BR>
ratio<BR>
> have been achieved with a tactical bombing campaign? (Or even totally<BR>
> different expenditures?)<BR>
<BR>
Ok here is the kicker neither the Germans nor the Soviets planned for <BR>
strategic bombing.  Both could not attack each other over a long <BR>
distance so if you look at just the Eastern Front you could see what the <BR>
Western Front might have look with out strategic bombing.<BR>
<BR>
We are trying to answer a question that has existed since WWII and the <BR>
founding of the US air force does Strategic Bombing work.  Probably not <BR>
unless its on a massive scale.  Some may differ with me and site <BR>
Operation Line Backer II, or the Gulf War.  For Line Backer II, well that <BR>
was just massive bombing that we should have done much earlier, so it <BR>
fits the massive scale idea.  The Gulf War air campaign was not strategic <BR>
in the true sense.  I would call it Grand tactical in scale and a very good <BR>
use of it as well.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Traveller Comparison: Are battle riders better than battleships?<BR>
<BR>
Another question is do you bombard a whole planet or just key <BR>
installations to draw the planets forces out and isolate them on the <BR>
battlefield.  <BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:00:52 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote,<BR>
>I was under this impression as well, but Article VII says that "The<BR>
Ratification of the Conventions of nine States shall be sufficient for the<BR>
Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the<BR>
same." Doesn't that mean it would only be valid for those nine states? Or,<BR>
since it was a Constitution of the United States, would it apply to<BR>
everybody, regardless? Or would the other four be kicked out? Am I not<BR>
reading this right?<<BR>
<BR>
That's what I always wondered about too!<BR>
Now to find a constitutional scholar to answer the question...<BR>
But actually you can find a bunch of interesting things if you really take<BR>
the time to read the thing carefully.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:11:16 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
> >I was under this impression as well, but Article VII says that "The<BR>
> Ratification of the Conventions of nine States shall be sufficient for the<BR>
> Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the<BR>
> same." Doesn't that mean it would only be valid for those nine states? Or,<BR>
> since it was a Constitution of the United States, would it apply to<BR>
> everybody, regardless? Or would the other four be kicked out? Am I not<BR>
> reading this right?<<BR>
> <BR>
> That's what I always wondered about too!<BR>
> Now to find a constitutional scholar to answer the question...<BR>
> But actually you can find a bunch of interesting things if you really take<BR>
> the time to read the thing carefully.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not a constitutional scholar by any means, but my guess is that<BR>
states that refused to ratify the Constitution were not subject to its<BR>
jurisdiction. They would no longer be members of the Union.<BR>
Fortunately for the US, all thirteen states ratified it<BR>
eventually (I believe Rhode Island was the last, in 1790 or so).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:29:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Well fed Japanese [OT]<BR>
<BR>
Samwise wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>But why wouldn't Japan have been well fed?<BR>
<BR>
In the years between the World Wars, Japan's industrial capacity grew by<BR>
leaps and bounds, and although more food was being produced, and efficient<BR>
transportation allowed for more efficient distribution, more and more arable<BR>
land was taken up by the needs of industry. Sometime in the 1930s Japan no<BR>
longer had the capacity to feed her own people with the food from her own<BR>
fields. Assuming that Peter meant "well fed" in a purely biological sense,<BR>
this is why the Japanese would not be well fed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:58:42 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> But actually you can find a bunch of interesting things if you really take<BR>
> the time to read the thing carefully.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget the immense body of Supreme Court decisions<BR>
that interpret it.  Read a few of those and you won't wonder<BR>
why lawyers charge so much.  But then again, if you're going<BR>
to take the trouble to actually read a bunch of those, you<BR>
might as well go to law school so you can get paid for it<BR>
eventually.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Bloo<BR>
(In the last class of Constitutional Law taught by<BR>
Archibald Cox, Special Prosecutor fired by Nixon)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:01:59 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From what I remember Grayhawk is pre-printing press, and the literacy<BR>
> rate is not very high. Therefore IMO the locals probably don't have a<BR>
> consistent spelling for just about any word, and regional dialects will<BR>
> remove any chance of a consistent pronounciation or even name, so I say<BR>
> spell and say it however you like. I do :)<BR>
<BR>
Amen, Brother Rupert.  Hopefully, no Samuel Johnson type<BR>
will come around and start writing down and spelling words<BR>
that have never been written or spelled before.<BR>
<BR>
Wrulz ez mayd tue bi bwrohkin<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:12:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Rules<BR>
<BR>
MJ Dougherty wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What's not OK (I believe) is behaving in a manner that would risk physical<BR>
> injury were you actually in my presence. It's very easy to be abusive when<BR>
> you're X Thousands of miles away. Those who like to refer to others as not<BR>
> being "men" ought to think about the implications of shouting insults from a<BR>
> hidden location in another country. Real Manly, that.<BR>
<BR>
So, your threat of physical attack _is_ manly?<BR>
<BR>
Your standard appears to be that, if you would hit them<BR>
were they standing next to you, then they shouldn't say<BR>
it.  Does that mean, if you don't hit them whatever they<BR>
said is ok?<BR>
<BR>
The "implications of shouting insults from a hidden<BR>
location in another country" is that nobody gets<BR>
hurt.  How does that sticks and stones saying go?<BR>
<BR>
Too many rules spoils the broth.<BR>
Ignorance is bliss.<BR>
Hide the reply button, make the delete key prominent,<BR>
and you'll find the list is much more manageable.  I delete<BR>
about 50-70% of the posts unread.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:40:25 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Rules<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So, your threat of physical attack _is_ manly?<BR>
<BR>
>Your standard appears to be that, if you would hit them<BR>
>were they standing next to you, then they shouldn't say<BR>
>it.  Does that mean, if you don't hit them whatever >they<BR>
>said is ok?<BR>
<BR>
>The "implications of shouting insults from a hidden<BR>
>location in another country" is that nobody gets.<BR>
>hurt.  How does that sticks and stones saying go?<BR>
<BR>
>Too many rules spoils the broth.<BR>
>Ignorance is bliss.<BR>
>Hide the reply button, make the delete key prominent,<BR>
>and you'll find the list is much more manageable.<BR>
<BR>
Common Curtesy, its making a comeback.....<BR>
You miss the point sir.  Some poeple do actually try to read all the stuff that comes across the TML, even if just glancing at it.  Many put great thought into it and hope to get well thought out replies.  If someone is simply intrested in getting into a childish name calling contest, go insult the scientology newsgroups, they live for that.  I for one tire of having to sift through the 60+ emails and delete a whole string that has been continued by someone who hasn't the good manners god gave a hyena.  It inspires me to delete all mail from that person, no matter what the title or how well thought out the rest of his material is. Unfortunately, ignoring the problem (like so many other problems in life) does not make it go away.  It would be nice if more people explained to the person that they did not appreciate it on the TML and to please refrain.  So, I would ask now that "Legate" please refrain from further comment on the flame war he was conducting.  In fact, I hope he !<BR>
 wo!<BR>
uld not even bother to defend himself in this string.  But please feel free to continue ones like the Trade Cartel, that was intresting.  <BR>
<BR>
And thats my cr.02 worth.<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:40:25 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Rules<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So, your threat of physical attack _is_ manly?<BR>
<BR>
>Your standard appears to be that, if you would hit them<BR>
>were they standing next to you, then they shouldn't say<BR>
>it.  Does that mean, if you don't hit them whatever >they<BR>
>said is ok?<BR>
<BR>
>The "implications of shouting insults from a hidden<BR>
>location in another country" is that nobody gets.<BR>
>hurt.  How does that sticks and stones saying go?<BR>
<BR>
>Too many rules spoils the broth.<BR>
>Ignorance is bliss.<BR>
>Hide the reply button, make the delete key prominent,<BR>
>and you'll find the list is much more manageable.<BR>
<BR>
Common Curtesy, its making a comeback.....<BR>
You miss the point sir.  Some poeple do actually try to read all the stuff that comes across the TML, even if just glancing at it.  Many put great thought into it and hope to get well thought out replies.  If someone is simply intrested in getting into a childish name calling contest, go insult the scientology newsgroups, they live for that.  I for one tire of having to sift through the 60+ emails and delete a whole string that has been continued by someone who hasn't the good manners god gave a hyena.  It inspires me to delete all mail from that person, no matter what the title or how well thought out the rest of his material is. Unfortunately, ignoring the problem (like so many other problems in life) does not make it go away.  It would be nice if more people explained to the person that they did not appreciate it on the TML and to please refrain.  So, I would ask now that "Legate" please refrain from further comment on the flame war he was conducting.  In fact, I hope he !<BR>
 wo!<BR>
uld not even bother to defend himself in this string.  But please feel free to continue ones like the Trade Cartel, that was intresting.  <BR>
<BR>
And thats my cr.02 worth.<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:52:44 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Wed, 24 May 2000 13:00:29 -0400 (EDT), Tod Glenn<BR>
> <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >OK everybody, apologies for any gross errors or rudeness in my posts.  I<BR>
> >really shouldn't be up at 2am reading TML.  Will advanced technology bring a<BR>
> >cure for this sleep disease? There just aren't enough hours in the day.<BR>
> <BR>
> Run DriveSpace on your clocks?<BR>
<BR>
LOL!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:55:45 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> >  >Which has to be one of the most historically inaccurate<BR>
> >  >protrayals of all time.  :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >     No better or worse than Xena or Hercules.<BR>
> <BR>
> Maybe tied for the worst.  Though Xena and Hercules have<BR>
> moments that "Jack" doesn't seem to have....<BR>
<BR>
You mean when Xena faces six robbers in a bar, then smashes half a dozen<BR>
of them to unconsciousness, and the remaining seven then flee?<BR>
<BR>
SCNR<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:34:44 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
<BR>
tim@premier.net schrieb:<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> It also aimed to hurt moral, again this just<BR>
> pissed people off; since it was not total bombing except in the case of<BR>
> the rare and TRADGIC fire storms and nukes.<BR>
<BR>
Well, just one thing: Fire storms were not rare at all in Germany<BR>
diuring the second half of WWII, from what my grandmothers told me. Or<BR>
the history books. Most cities were *literally* large charred areas, not<BR>
cities any more. I've seen a lot of photos and a model of my hometown<BR>
from 1945, just after the war. You can see on them that the bombings<BR>
were clearly intended to hurt the civilan population; German industry<BR>
after the war was about 50% intact. (Until the victors dissassembled and<BR>
took a lot of it to their own countries, but that is another story, and<BR>
at least the U.S. generously more than paid that bill later on).<BR>
<BR>
If you visit my home town, you will see only a handful of buildings that<BR>
are older than 50 years. And they are those of historical importance;<BR>
normal living quarters were _not_ rebuild/repaired. The suburbs were<BR>
better off, though.<BR>
 <BR>
[snip] <BR>
<BR>
> > Traveller Comparison: Are battle riders better than battleships?<BR>
> <BR>
> Another question is do you bombard a whole planet or just key<BR>
> installations to draw the planets forces out and isolate them on the<BR>
> battlefield.<BR>
<BR>
Though on a planetary scale, it is just useful to accelerate an asteroid<BR>
to a fair speed and let it collide with the planet's surface. It is<BR>
cheap, especially if you are not really intending to conquer, but only<BR>
destroying the area. (which would make it comparable to WWII in<BR>
Europe...). Though it requires a *large* amount of anger against (for?)<BR>
the enemy among your own population not to protest against such<BR>
measures.<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:41:57 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
> > lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
> > technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Temporarily suspending belief in quantum mechanics, how about this? If you<BR>
> can determine when decay is going to occur, you can produce interesting<BR>
> materials. Suppose that you can isolate all of a certain isotope which will<BR>
> decay at exactly 12:00 on June 25, 2000. You can then make a device which<BR>
> will release lots of radiation in a short time.<BR>
<BR>
An interesting idea.<BR>
Though this is not so far beyond known Traveller technology, at least as<BR>
I understand it for myself.<BR>
 <BR>
> Or, suppose that you can isolate all of the atoms which will decay at 12:00<BR>
> on June 25, 2000. You then wait until a few seconds before the decay happens<BR>
> and stop the process with a nuclear damper. You then use the resulting<BR>
> device to jump start your jump drive in an emergency. You turn off the<BR>
> damper, and with a loud *zap* your jump drive starts up again.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that a jump drive needs energy of some kind, not matter. But<BR>
since alternative fuel sources are unkown in OTU (such as a fission<BR>
reactor to powr the jump drive), I'd prefer that "matter in its simplest<BR>
form (i.e., hydrogen with one proton, one electron and no neutrons)" is<BR>
required for openeing the "hole" to jump space.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:43:25 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Mutiny problem in the Imperial Navy? (was: Re: Officers)<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn schrieb:<BR>
 <BR>
[snip]<BR>
> OTOH there's no reason for the 3I and member states not to have a lot<BR>
> more officers than we usually do. CT chargen (not counting the<BR>
> advanced), certainly produces a lot of officers, and it's quite clear<BR>
> that they are the skilled ones. Perhaps the enlisted personnel are only<BR>
> used for crap, semi-skilled work (which would explain the mutiny<BR>
> problem the Navy had).<BR>
<BR>
Interesting! Can you give me a source about this, or a short summary?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:15:00 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Re: . .  Normans in Sicily and so on<BR>
<BR>
Doh!  I saw "Normans in Sicily" and got<BR>
excited because I thought you were posting<BR>
about Robert Guiscard.  I'm searching for<BR>
a good autobiography of him and not<BR>
having much luck.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:27:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Oh yeah, the Navy had trouble getting thru to Pearl on the radio so<BR>
>> they sent the warning via Western Union, and it wasn't marked urgent.<BR>
>> It was delivered to the base commander hours *after* the attack.<BR>
>  <BR>
> Think about the commanders reaction when he read the message:<BR>
> "Oh, now you tell me!<BR>
<BR>
Read "Day of Infamy" or any of the other books about the attack. It<BR>
gets even better. I'll let you find out the details yourself...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:28:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 25 May 00, at 0:02, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> For the cryptographic side of things, David Kahn's "The Codebreakers"<BR>
>> covers it *very* well. Check out the unabridged hardback from the library,<BR>
>> because it costs over $60 new!<BR>
><BR>
> Wow. My old man's got a battered paperback copy just sitting on the <BR>
> shelf.<BR>
<BR>
And if you'll check, it'll say "Abridged" somewhere. The unabridged<BR>
hardback is too thick to make a decent paperback, even now.<BR>
<BR>
But the paperback version should still have most of the stuff about<BR>
Pearl Harbor.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:35:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> True people will keep having children, but despite the Nazis wanting to<BR>
> believe that a platoon of 12 year old Hitler Jugend with lugers and a<BR>
> panzerfaust would not only fight but stop the Allies it just doesn't work<BR>
> that way and you eventually run out of troops.<BR>
<BR>
True you'll run out *eventually*. But check the current issue of<BR>
Scientific American. But don't eat first. It has an article about the<BR>
use of children as young as *5* in not just rebel forces but in<BR>
government backed groups as well. <BR>
<BR>
It rather disturbing seeing a group of six *kids* holding their<BR>
weapons. 5 AK-47s and an RPG-7...<BR>
<BR>
The sort of wars described in that article and others in the same issue<BR>
are something that I'd hesitate to include in a Traveller game. On the<BR>
other hand, that kind of scenario might just get across the idea that<BR>
fighting is a bad idea to some players...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:45:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 25 May 2000, Talon wrote:<BR>
>> Thanks Doug!<BR>
>> what about IIRC and although not an acronym, fnord, if that is the right<BR>
>> word.<BR>
><BR>
> If I remember correctly, IIRC stands for Imperial Interstellar<BR>
> Reconnaissance Corps. <g><BR>
><BR>
> As for fnord, your not cleared for that.<BR>
<BR>
And if he *is* "cleared", then I doubt the Illuminati would want<BR>
anything to do with him. As I recall the Sci*nt*l*gists are enemies of<BR>
theirs...  :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:48:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> AFAIK it means As far as I know<BR>
><BR>
>>>> "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> 05/25/00 09:38AM >>><BR>
> While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
<BR>
As Far As I Know.<BR>
<BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
What does PLST stand for?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2505<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 02:12:59 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 02:12:37 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id CAA05475;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 02:10:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 02:10:01 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id CAA05418<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 02:10:01 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:10:01 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005260610.CAA05418@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2505<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2506</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 4:55:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2506<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
too many arguments...<BR>
Re: Dim Memory (Hammers' Slammers)<BR>
re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Good Grief (was Re: Save Yourselves (OT))<BR>
OT:Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
The Nature of War in the Imperium? (Long, Long, Long!)<BR>
Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Client States (politics thereof?)<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
Mora or Regina ?<BR>
RE: acronyms<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:03:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Now to the important content.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
>><BR>
>> 1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
><BR>
> Of course they were, given that every region of Earth has practiced ritual<BR>
> cannibalism, and hunger cannibalism has survived to the present day (I read<BR>
> a review of a book recently that detailed the first attempt to convict<BR>
> shipwrecked sailors of murder for killing and eating a dying shipmate, which<BR>
> took place in the late 19th century.)<BR>
><BR>
> The *real* question is why Vilani cooking practices survived after contact<BR>
> with Terran food. Given their preferences, it seems likely that they'd kill<BR>
> for Thai or Indian cooking*:<BR>
><BR>
> Vilani Noble: That was delicious! What was it?<BR>
> Terran Planetary governor Lt. (JG) Krishnamurthi: A simple dish from my<BR>
> region of Earth...chicken and curried rice.<BR>
> Vilani Noble: Mmmm! Tastes like Uncle!<BR>
><BR>
> Fred Ramen<BR>
><BR>
> *I wanted to say that Italian cooking would conquer the First Imperium, but<BR>
> unless they stopped weaning their young**, Vilani are probably lactose<BR>
> intolerant. No lasagna.<BR>
><BR>
> **And we don't want to open that can of worms, do we?***<BR>
><BR>
> ***Although mother's milk *is* a good source of protein and fat :)<BR>
<BR>
Forgive me, everyone, but I *can't* resist this opening...<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani do wean their young. But the job often translated as<BR>
"milkmaid" is rather different than what most would expect... <eg><BR>
<BR>
(If anyone really and truly *doesn't* get it, email me privately :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:07:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> As well, in addition to the SSMM they also get the 50th century<BR>
>> Luddites causing trouble if they try such.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, I guess it, but just to be sure: What are "Luddites"?<BR>
<BR>
Followers of Ned Ludd (if I recall correctly). They protested<BR>
automation of the English weaving industry by smashing the mechanical<BR>
looms. The term generally is applied to people who are stronglt\y<BR>
anti-automation or anti-technology.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:05:38 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 schrieb:<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> There are a lot of tactical situations which aren't terribly subject to<BR>
> creativity on the short term, or where one human per 10 warbots is good<BR>
> enough.<<BR>
> <BR>
> There are a lot more that do I would say.<BR>
<BR>
Like...? Perhaps I am without imagination at the moment, but I can't<BR>
think of situaion were creativity is _that_ important in a combat<BR>
situation. <BR>
 <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote;<BR>
> >Such as...? IMHO, firepower is firepower. You can use surprise, good<BR>
> terrain, additional equipment and the like to modify your and your<BR>
> opponent's effective firepower, but finally, it comes to comparing the<BR>
> "numbers".<BR>
> Ten hits here, one hit there, guess who wins. Use of surprise may<BR>
> effectively reduce the enemy's initial firepower, but one hit cannot<BR>
> possibly kill ten targets, And then, finally, the superior enemy fires<BR>
> back. The result would be hit-and-run tactics, which is a fairly known<BR>
> concept, even to, I'd say, Milbot programmers...<<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually surprise and terrain can do a very good job of negating superior<BR>
> firepower.<BR>
> If the defenders get in 5 shots before the attackers get 1, and then can<BR>
> negate 50% of the return shots by using cover, those 10-1 odds start turning<BR>
> into 1-1 odds.<BR>
<BR>
So you are assuming the attackers have a strength of 2-3, while the<BR>
defnders are at a strenght of 10. I aggree with your description, though<BR>
good use of surprise requires both quite a good precision in the attack,<BR>
and the right conditions to make a sneak attack possible, which is not<BR>
always the case.<BR>
<BR>
In a addition, how would creativity help out the defenders in this case?<BR>
And why do you assume that it requires non-robotic creativity to launch<BR>
a sneak attack?<BR>
 <BR>
> >Well, you use sophont officers, but robot "regulars". That was what I<BR>
> meant.<<BR>
> <BR>
> Then you just target the officers. Given the difference in race it would be<BR>
> even easier for snipers to spot them. Then you totally lose command control.<BR>
<BR>
Right, and that is why I put them in the second line, in armoured<BR>
vehicles. Or perhaps even in orbit. Secure area, so to speak. *If* the<BR>
offciers are knocked out, the robots become predictable, but that is<BR>
IMHO not the same as "harmless". Not at all. After all, if you know that<BR>
your platoon is going to be attacked somewhere this night, what can you<BR>
do that is not somewhat obvious to the programmer. Establish traps,<BR>
secretly move your camp while mining the area around the first one... <BR>
 <BR>
> >That was what I meant by mentioning technologic leaps. These haven't<BR>
> happened in OTU for quite a long time- and have never been very common<BR>
> in OTU's history. The Interstellar Wars were one of the few exceptions. <<BR>
> <BR>
> Not even tech leaps but tactical leaps. look at the difference in tech and<BR>
> tactics from the Greeks to the Romans. Something on those lines with a<BR>
> robot army would be devastating.<BR>
<BR>
I am not a military historian, but AFAIK, both used some kind of phalanx<BR>
(though the Romans didn't call it that way), which is, lines of soldiers<BR>
with polearms and shields, heavily armoured (for the time). They<BR>
approached in a row of several lines, men from the back lines replacing<BR>
losses in the first and second lines.<BR>
<BR>
And also AFAIK (still I am no expert in land warfare history), the<BR>
Greeks were not an easy match for the Romans. I may be wrong or<BR>
confusing things here, though. <BR>
<BR>
From what I know about Solomani history :-), creativity was mostly<BR>
needed when a new weapon was used by either side, such as Elephants<BR>
against Rome... or tanks in WWI, when they all didn't see the potential,<BR>
initially.<BR>
 <BR>
> >Are these people intended to be of any economical or political influence<BR>
> in the Confederation?<BR>
> If yes: Why?<<BR>
> <BR>
> Ask Marc Miller and John Harshman (The listed authors of AM6.), I am just<BR>
> stating canon references there.<BR>
<BR>
:-) I hoped those canon references would go more into detail. <BR>
 <BR>
> ><sigh> I don't have those.<BR>
> <BR>
> Is SJG planning to bring out something about the Solomani Confederation?<<BR>
> <BR>
> Isn't there and Aliens of the Rim product? And I'd expect stuff in Rim of<BR>
> Fire about it.<BR>
<BR>
We'll see. But Aliens Of the Rim is TNE, isn't it? I don't know, but<BR>
AFAIK, it is not GT. (And therefore, no longer in print).<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:24:14 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
> The environment here on the TML has been getting a bit<BR>
> hostile lately. I would like to propose a few rules that<BR>
> may help make it a less hostile place. <BR>
<BR>
What's the point, Peter ?<BR>
<BR>
These rules can't be enforced.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:21:52 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: too many arguments...<BR>
<BR>
Wonderful.<BR>
<BR>
We have Mesons, Theology, politeness AND WWII arguments all going at the same <BR>
time. The last person to start a useful topic is currently being vilified <BR>
(for other posts, but still...).<BR>
<BR>
Today's goal needs to be: Add fewer than 5 DIGESTS to the TML archives today.<BR>
<BR>
We added 11 digests on 5/25/00, almost entirely useless bickering...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
"Where do you want to go today?<BR>
 No...<BR>
 Where...<BR>
 You could ever take me!"<BR>
      -Chumbawamba, WYSIWYG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:36:07 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dim Memory (Hammers' Slammers)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:46:44 +0100<BR>
>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: Dim Memory<BR>
><BR>
>I seem to remember seeing an ad for a Hammers' Slammers game, a very long<BR>
>time ago (1984? 85?). Anyone got any details???<BR>
<BR>
  Mayfair Games - sorta PanzerBlitz with some chrome; eminently<BR>
forgettable, but with some neat (expensive?) ideas in die-cut<BR>
cardboard maps...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:36:35 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
...<BR>
>Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than <BR>
>just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do <BR>
>mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, the 7th Sea _game_ appears (IMHO: YMMV) to be both over-priced<BR>
and under-designed; it's perhaps unfortunate that the background isn't<BR>
available separately. For people who really want the higher-tech stuff<BR>
go for either Castle Falken-whatever or your favourite flavour of GURPS -<BR>
low-fantasy or low-tech people should consider either "Gemini", or <BR>
Hogshead Publishings WFRP - both of which are substantially cheaper, as<BR>
all game info (including world background!) is in a single largish book.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:36:47 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
...<BR>
>As a general rule, classic Traveller stuff seems to go for more than<BR>
>equivalent D&D material. My guesses, again, are that D&D was<BR>
>so popular that it's easy to find the old stuff, and Traveller fans<BR>
>are a lot more fanatical. (As if we haven't noticed *that*.) :-)<BR>
<BR>
  If my estimated customer base from selling stuff is any indication,<BR>
there is another factor; SF fans, or at least those born `75 or earlier,<BR>
are more likely to be in well-paying tech/engineering fields.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:37:23 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
...<BR>
>> Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
...<BR>
>It seems to me that given the significantly higher productivity<BR>
>of the US that it could have defeated Japan fairly handily <BR>
>without Magic (even while spending most of its resources<BR>
>in Europe). I am sure that casualties would have been<BR>
>higher without Magic but Japan simply did not have the<BR>
>resources for a prolonged war. The US could have survived<BR>
>having its ships, planes, and soldiers blown up for longer<BR>
>than the Japanese could have. Moreover the US would have been<BR>
>well fed during all this while the Japanese would not.<BR>
<BR>
  Essentially correct (IMHO), but if it had been the US carrier <BR>
force destroyed at Midway (ForEx) then the USN now has to pay _huge_<BR>
logistical costs to "island-hop" into even the outer perimeter<BR>
of the Japanese defenses - and those logistical costs will mean<BR>
much greater times to achieve ends and/or lost battles/campaigns<BR>
in the process. <BR>
<BR>
  It might very well have led to either a tremendously long drawn<BR>
out war or the progressive nuking of each Japanese major naval<BR>
base in turn as the final advance got under way...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:40:24 +0200<BR>
From: Steve Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com><BR>
Subject: Good Grief (was Re: Save Yourselves (OT))<BR>
<BR>
This who 'Nature of Satanists' thread makes me think of the old Peanuts<BR>
cartoon where Charlie Brown is standing on the mound while all of the<BR>
players on his Little League team start off arguing about baseball and<BR>
somehow end up arguing the nature of Good and why good things happen to<BR>
bad people, and vice versa.<BR>
<BR>
At the end, Charlie Brown says something to the effect that we may have<BR>
a crummy ball team, but at least its a good Theological debating<BR>
society.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> and others wrote:<BR>
>>Devil worship implies belief in devils.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes. That's been established and I don't disagree.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:05:19 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
> It also aimed to hurt moral, again this just<BR>
> pissed people off; since it was not total bombing except in the case of<BR>
> the rare and TRADGIC fire storms and nukes.<BR>
<BR>
  The wording here seems a bit strange - the effects were certainly<BR>
tragic, but it's not as if the events were in the least accidental.<BR>
<BR>
  OTOH, "Invasion: Earth" _very strongly_ implies that massive <BR>
destruction of inhabited areas - and the concomitant killing of<BR>
civilians - is considered a Bad Thing even by The Evil Empire <BR>
(aka, 3I). That is, the OTU sees political dimensions to the use<BR>
of armed force as being a given; refs or players who imagine<BR>
otherwise are likely missing the big picture*.<BR>
<BR>
  * and, IMHO, wrt RL, several billion active brain-cells.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:05:54 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
...<BR>
>Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than <BR>
>just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do <BR>
>mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
<BR>
  IIRC, it's written by someone with what might be described as, uhm,<BR>
"interesting" ideas about conspiracies targetting his computers? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 03:05:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: The Nature of War in the Imperium? (Long, Long, Long!)<BR>
<BR>
To make up for my off-topicness over the last few days:<BR>
<BR>
	All of this talk about the world wars, mercenary actions, industrial and<BR>
economic havoc and so forth (as well as my reading of Eric Hobsbawm's "The<BR>
Age of Extremes: A History of the World, 1914 - 1991" which I highly<BR>
recommend) has gotten me to thinking about the nature of warfare in the<BR>
Imperium. There have been a number of ObTravs recently which seem to imply<BR>
that war in the Imperium would look like modern warfare, or total warfare.<BR>
This seems to be strongly at odds with the way in which warfare in the<BR>
Imperium was originally presented.<BR>
<BR>
	The wheels in my brain started turning when I was composing my post on the<BR>
Lusitania, which touched on the rules of warfare as they existed (but were<BR>
ignored or abused) at the time. The style of warfare on which these rules<BR>
were built upon simply no longer existed, and could no longer exist. The<BR>
European powers were going for "all the marbles" and what resulted was an<BR>
accelerated grinding down of the industrial and economic capacities of the<BR>
major players. Various positions pop up on the list which seem to imply that<BR>
this would be the way that war in the Imperium would be.<BR>
<BR>
	I don't think that this has to be the case. While our own notions of<BR>
warfare are colored by the World Wars, wars like them were rarely (if ever)<BR>
waged before. Sure, there were certain precursors which hinted at what was<BR>
going to come down the line: the American Civil War, the French Revolution,<BR>
the Thirty Years' War. The two big wars in the 20th century were of a<BR>
completely different breed. Wars like this might be waged in the official<BR>
Traveller universe. "The Rebellion" is a total war writ large across the<BR>
stars, and a war with the Zhodani or the Solomani (or both at once) might<BR>
quickly become a "total war" in which the economic capacity of the Imperium<BR>
and her neighbors might be put to the test.<BR>
<BR>
	However, I don't think that viewing war in the Imperium is particularly<BR>
useful nor do I think that it's "correct" given what we know about it. The<BR>
ways in which earlier wars were waged really didn't hit home until I read<BR>
the following:<BR>
<BR>
"...Nevertheless, before the twentieth century, wars embracing all society<BR>
were exceptional. Jane Austen wrote her novels during the Napoleonic wars,<BR>
but no reader who did not know this already would guess it, for the wars do<BR>
not appear in her pages, even though a number of the young gentleman who<BR>
pass through them undoubtedly took part in them. It is inconceivable that<BR>
any novelist could write about Britain in the twentieth-century wars in this<BR>
manner." (Hobsbawm, 44)<BR>
<BR>
He's right, of course. This statement is certainly true, and further I think<BR>
that this statement illustrates the way things should be imagined in the<BR>
Imperium. While this seems to be intuitive and obvious, it certainly wasn't<BR>
always that way for me. It would also seem that from comments made on this<BR>
list, this shift in the notion of war is not an easy one to make. This is a<BR>
big jump to make: this means that by and large wars do not involve mass<BR>
mobilization of men and materials, which incidentally carries with it the<BR>
notion that, at least for the most part, wars are not generally fought on<BR>
ideological grounds. After all, even the least cynical among us would<BR>
hesitate before challenging the notion that ideologies are absolutely<BR>
required to get people to put up with the hardships which complete<BR>
mobilization requires.<BR>
<BR>
	Just as it was possible for Jane Austen to never mention the Napoleonic<BR>
wars in her novels, and note that this isn't the result of heavy government<BR>
censorship, it might be possible to vacation on a planet and never know that<BR>
a war was going on there. The Imperial rules of war work not because of the<BR>
fear of a big stick whacking you if you don't follow them, but because<BR>
waging war any other way would be unsporting, uncivilized, and utterly<BR>
lacking in taste.<BR>
<BR>
	So, what are the ramifications? Soldiers don't gas civilian populations,<BR>
whether they're in enclosed spaces or not. Civilian casualties tend to be<BR>
kept to a minimum. Since total wars between worlds, and between nations on<BR>
worlds, are rather rare, destruction of industrial centers (and as a result,<BR>
civilian population centers) are rarely even contemplated.<BR>
<BR>
	What does this look like in a broad sense? If I may quote from Hobsbawm<BR>
again:<BR>
<BR>
"Wars conducted on both sides by professionals, or specialists, especially<BR>
those of similar social standing, do not exclude mutual respect and<BR>
acceptance of rules, or even chivalry. Violence has its rules. This was<BR>
still evident among fighter pilots in air forces in both wars, as witness<BR>
Jean Renoir's pacifist film about the First World War, "La Grande Illusion".<BR>
Professionals of politics and diplomacy, when untrammeled by the demands of<BR>
votes or newspapers, can declare war or negotiate peace with no hard<BR>
feelings about the other side, like boxers who shake hands before they come<BR>
out fighting, and drink with each other after the fight."<BR>
<BR>
Now, I know that some of you who are much more familiar with 19th century<BR>
military history than I may already know this. Even so, ideas firmly<BR>
entrenched (no pun intended) in the muddy soil of "total war" seem to<BR>
dominate conversations about specific strategies and tactics.<BR>
<BR>
	There are certain "advantages" to viewing wars within the Imperium in this<BR>
fashion. Perhaps the biggest advantage is that it strongly supports the<BR>
notion of an Imperial aristocracy and moves the government of the Imperium<BR>
from "friendly fascism" (which seems to be a complaint which appears from<BR>
time to time) to something a little more interesting and a little less<BR>
distasteful. It also gives the notion of war a complete, and in my opinion,<BR>
somewhat refreshing overhaul. Warfare once again becomes the stuff of an<BR>
*adventure* game, which Traveller ultimately is.<BR>
<BR>
	It also leaves some interesting loose ends open. For example, there's that<BR>
nagging question of why the Imperium advances so slowly. Considering the<BR>
large number of advances and refinements (across the board, but especially<BR>
military technology and manufacturing processes) during the World Wars,<BR>
something like this could very well become much easier to justify. The<BR>
stakes are rarely, if ever, as high as they are during periods of total war,<BR>
so the pressure to knock the stuffing out of your enemy with the next "big<BR>
thing" becomes much less important. Given the the decentralized nature of<BR>
the Imperium, it might actually be impossible to really fight a "total war"<BR>
anyway. Keep in mind that the Imperium had to resort to psycho-historical<BR>
manipulation to get the folks in the Imperium mobilized against the<BR>
Vilani... and that worked way *too* well.<BR>
<BR>
	So, what would have to be changed? Very little. Perhaps "mercenary"-style<BR>
characters might be given more chances to raise their social standing during<BR>
character generation. Perhaps service in the Imperial Army or Marines is<BR>
absolutely critical for upward social mobility. Perhaps other interesting<BR>
touches could be added. In Britain during the 19th century it was impossible<BR>
to become an officer without a knowledge of Latin and a solid grounding in<BR>
the classics. Perhaps upon becoming an officer, a player character may gain<BR>
a free level in Vilani, or Old Anglic, or Literature, Philosophy or<BR>
whatever.<BR>
<BR>
	Just some thoughts which may or may not be useful (and which nobody will<BR>
read anyway).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:20:42 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Vilani Noble: That was delicious! What was it?<BR>
> Terran Planetary governor Lt. (JG) Krishnamurthi: A simple dish from my<BR>
> region of Earth...chicken and curried rice.<BR>
> Vilani Noble: Mmmm! Tastes like Uncle!<BR>
<BR>
LOL, Damn, if that isn't gonna be line I'll have to use.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:29:35 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
I snipped a Whole Hell of a Lot.<BR>
<BR>
Yes. I said it. Here is my point. most of the So called Satanists I have<BR>
met. Believe fervently that Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook, are gonna<BR>
smite them all the way to hell. They just wanna piss off the normals.<BR>
So. wouldn't there belief in the Trinity qualify them?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:34:18 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (politics thereof?)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
...<BR>
>>  Of course, most client states will have people who understand the<BR>
>>above, but that doesn't mean that factions and individuals can't be<BR>
>>co-opted, or that leaders won't know the rules. And mistakes happen...<BR>
><BR>
>I suspect that most client states will have few people who<BR>
>_don't_ understand the above, and none of those will be in<BR>
>positions of power... Consider that while the Soviet Union<BR>
>outright annexed Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, they never<BR>
>attempted the same with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania,<BR>
>Bulgaria, or East Germany...<BR>
<BR>
  I was thinking more that where the conditions are "permanent" (i.e.,<BR>
pre-date the current generation) - as might very well occur in the <BR>
OTU - that many people are going to miss more implications. That is,<BR>
rather than people who learned (_real well_) about real-politik in WW2,<BR>
you're going to have people for whom history is either long ago (a good<BR>
chunk of Latin America possibly qualifies here) or "not real".<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:09:47 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
>  > >I was under this impression as well, but Article VII says that "The<BR>
>  > Ratification of the Conventions of nine States shall be sufficient for the<BR>
>  > Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the<BR>
>  > same." Doesn't that mean it would only be valid for those nine states? Or,<BR>
>  > since it was a Constitution of the United States, would it apply to<BR>
>  > everybody, regardless? Or would the other four be kicked out? Am I not<BR>
>  > reading this right?<<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > That's what I always wondered about too!<BR>
>  > Now to find a constitutional scholar to answer the question...<BR>
>  > But actually you can find a bunch of interesting things if you really take<BR>
>  > the time to read the thing carefully.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm not a constitutional scholar by any means, but my guess is that<BR>
>states that refused to ratify the Constitution were not subject to its<BR>
>jurisdiction. They would no longer be members of the Union.<BR>
>Fortunately for the US, all thirteen states ratified it<BR>
>eventually (I believe Rhode Island was the last, in 1790 or so).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(As my American History teacher mentioned)<BR>
It was stipulated that the constitution took effect on all<BR>
when 3/4 ratified.  Now the legality of this is a bit questionable,<BR>
but it was never put to the test.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 04:02:47 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin requested the URL for the GRIP Traveller announcement, and I<BR>
haven't seen a reply:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rpgrealms.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
This splash page actually lists four different items: a press release for<BR>
the "massive multiplayer online Traveller", an article on bulk cargoes<BR>
for CT (Book 2), a review of the CT Reprints, and a press release for the<BR>
GRIP Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
The material all looks interesting, at least. My question is, who are<BR>
these guys? I know Bloo has been involved with the "massive multiplayer<BR>
online Traveller", but I don't recognize any of the other names (Hunter<BR>
Gordon, John Hemmert, Bruce Runnels). This is not bad in itself (more<BR>
Traveller players? Oh, stop -- you're hurting me), but I'd rather not see<BR>
a repeat of Imperium Games, nor do I think the market for Traveller<BR>
products is so large that we can afford to compete with one another.<BR>
<BR>
I will cross-post this message to Hunter Gordon and invite him to join<BR>
the list to answer questions about his product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:12:52 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Mora or Regina ?<BR>
<BR>
I was reading GT:BTC last night, and the Regina entry said that is was<BR>
sector capital. I always thought Mora was sector capital. Did I miss<BR>
something ? or is this a GURPS change ?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:36:21 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > AFAIK it means As far as I know<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>> "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> 05/25/00 09:38AM >>><BR>
> > While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> > what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> <BR>
> As Far As I Know.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
> What does PLST stand for?<BR>
<BR>
:-o  That's not an acronym, they're my initials!<BR>
<BR>
"PLST" = Peter Laurence Stanislaus Trevor<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:27:41 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
<BR>
Christopher Thrash wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The material all looks interesting, at least. My question is, who are<BR>
> these guys?<BR>
<BR>
And how long before they get nailed to the wall for<BR>
not doing a Mac version?<BR>
<BR>
I want to get interested in their software, but then I<BR>
look at the screenshots and suddenly I want to play<BR>
Tribes.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:49:55 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
"samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>Walt Smith wrote;<BR>
>>A couple of things:<BR>
><BR>
>1. Most bombers used in the strategic bombing raids<BR>
>were *flown* to England.  Most men and equipment<BR>
>needed for the amphibious assaults needed to be<BR>
>*shipped* to England.  The 8th Air Force was ready<BR>
>for action long before the American (or British)<BR>
>armies were ready for Normandy.<<BR>
><BR>
>But most of the early 4 engine bombers were adequate to the task of tactical<BR>
>bombing as well and could have been used as such. Further, the British spent<BR>
>considerable sums on such aircraft as well that could have been spent on<BR>
>tactical bombers or fighters.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that the evidence before D-Day suggests that the 4 engine<BR>
bombers were completely unsuitable for tactical bombing - they just<BR>
couldn't find the targets with their bombs.<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, I don't recall a lot of success from large bombers attacking<BR>
ships in the Pacific.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2506<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yd02.mx.aol.com (rly-yd02.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.2]) by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:55:01 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:54:35 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id HAA17967;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 07:51:39 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 07:51:05 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id HAA17930<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:51:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:51:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005261151.HAA17930@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2506<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2507</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 7:38:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2507<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina?<BR>
Re: Weapons Website<BR>
Re:Save Yourself:  OT<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: GRIP world builder and character generator for TRAVELLER<BR>
Re: too many arguments...<BR>
Re: The Nature of War in the Imperium? (Long, Long, Long!)<BR>
Re: too many arguments...<BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re Gaming Philosophy ( was Re: Speed of Psionics)<BR>
Leaving the Imperium (Was: Client States)<BR>
RE: Mora or Regina?<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT: <BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:01:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
<BR>
time to add a little napalm to the fire I guess<BR>
<BR>
Heres my tenative entry for THUDD 12<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller Ship Data Sheet:<BR>
<BR>
Class Name: Raider X<BR>
Type: Fleet Commerce Raider<BR>
<BR>
TL: 12<BR>
Tonnage: 5,000 SL<BR>
Cost: 2,477.04 MCR<BR>
Mass: 16,223.95 Tons<BR>
DR: 945 with Total compartmentalization<BR>
Hit Points: 145,500<BR>
Crew: 48 and up to 32 Troops<BR>
<BR>
Engineering:<BR>
Jump: 4<BR>
Maneuver: 5.54<BR>
<BR>
Offensive Systems:<BR>
2 100T Meson Gun Bays<BR>
1 100T Missile Bay<BR>
8 Triple Beam Lasers<BR>
8 Triple Missile Racks<BR>
<BR>
Defensive Systems:<BR>
2 Triple Sandcasters<BR>
2 Quadpulse PDL Clusters<BR>
Nuclear Damper[20M]<BR>
Radical Stealth<BR>
Radical ECM<BR>
EW Module<BR>
<BR>
Sensors:<BR>
AESA: 300<BR>
PESA: 300<BR>
<BR>
Small Craft:<BR>
Pinnace<BR>
<BR>
Other Features:<BR>
Hardened Command Bridge<BR>
Enhanced Sensors<BR>
Enhanced Communications<BR>
2 Battledress Morgues<BR>
25 Staterooms<BR>
2 Barracks<BR>
16 Low Berths<BR>
2 Military Sick Bays<BR>
150 tons cargo<BR>
<BR>
NOTES:<BR>
New design straight from the new Maximus <BR>
Shipyard at<BR>
871-576, submitted for the THUDD 12 Project.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Design Notes:<BR>
Designed for Commerce raiding, and deep strike <BR>
raids,<BR>
Very maneuverable, and her mostly energy <BR>
armarment gives her<BR>
The ability to stay independent for longer <BR>
periods of time.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:15:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
>But most of the early 4 engine bombers were adequate to the <BR>
>task of tactical bombing as well and could have been used <BR>
>as such. Further, the British spent considerable sums on <BR>
>such aircraft as well that could have been spent on <BR>
>tactical bombers or fighters. <BR>
<BR>
1. You're thinking of medium bombers and fighter bombers.<BR>
Almost without exception, WW2 heavy bombers *suck* at<BR>
tactical bombing.  You've got this massive bomb load<BR>
that you can either drop low (overkill in one spot)<BR>
or drop high (scatters too much, as we found out during<BR>
the Normandy breakout).<BR>
<BR>
2. Getting aircraft into service isn't just, or even<BR>
primarily, a matter of money spent.  This isn't a wargame<BR>
where you decide this turn whether to spend your<BR>
resource points on Lancasters (heavy bombers) or<BR>
Mosquitos (fighter-bombers).  Its a matter of designs <BR>
tested, resources directed, factories tooled, workmen <BR>
trained, crews familiarized.  Do you realize how few of<BR>
the aircraft used during WW2 were even *designed*<BR>
during the war?  <BR>
<BR>
>And by concentrating on the areas being built up the<BR>
>build up could have been delayed or prevented making<BR>
>the invasion easier. <BR>
<BR>
1. The rest of the country would have used less resources,<BR>
had an easier time transporting resources, and used less<BR>
manpower.  If the Germans don't have to put 100 AAA guns<BR>
around Aachen, that's 100 AAA guns, a trainload of <BR>
ammunition and 2000 men they'll have to hold off your<BR>
tac air and strengthen the Atlantic Wall.<BR>
<BR>
2. The defenders could have concentrated all AAA and <BR>
defensive fighter planes along the strip you were<BR>
attacking, leading to heavier losses as the coastal <BR>
fortresses become air defense nightmares.<BR>
<BR>
<regarding weapons placed where they end up unused><BR>
>True, but that could have been achieved with <BR>
>significantly less expenditure on the strategic offense. <BR>
<BR>
What do you mean by "strategic offense"?  The strategic<BR>
bombing campaign was an offense.<BR>
<BR>
>And more was shifted to it [strategic bomber production]<BR>
>during the gear up. Had no additional factories been <BR>
>committed to strategic bombers but instead to tactical <BR>
>bombers and fighters, then not only tactical bombing but <BR>
>also the limited strategic bombing would have had <BR>
>significantly better fighter cover. <BR>
<BR>
1. 20/20 hindsight again.  You don't get to fight with what<BR>
would have been the best things to build beforehand, you<BR>
get to try and make the best use of what was built <BR>
beforehand.  If B-17's are in the pipeline, you use B-17's.<BR>
Strategic bombing may not have been the best choice of<BR>
strategies in 1938, but it may have been a better choice<BR>
than the alternatives (given what was then available)<BR>
in 1944.<BR>
<BR>
2. Why are you recommending limited strategic bombing, when<BR>
it took full-scale strategic bombing to get the limited<BR>
benefits it did produce?<BR>
<BR>
>So were the resources the Allies spent less than, equal to,<BR>
>or greater than those expended by the Axis for defense and<BR>
>in losses? <BR>
<BR>
Irrelevant.  The Allies had a lot more resources, <BR>
strategic bombing (at the time) was the fastest way to get <BR>
a quantity of those resources into contact with the enemy.  <BR>
Attrition is a bloody, nasty business, but was the only<BR>
method of contact available at the time.<BR>
<BR>
German war production increased during the strategic <BR>
bombing campaign.  US production increased a lot more.<BR>
Imagine how much more German production would have <BR>
increased had ports, railheads, fuel depots and factories<BR>
*not* been regularly bombed.<BR>
<BR>
(Just for fun: one of the reasons I've read for the German<BR>
increase in wartime production - the bombing blew up most<BR>
of the beer gardens, nightclubs, tourist attractions and<BR>
other recreations.  The wait staff, entertainers and other<BR>
civilian industry people had no civilian workplaces to <BR>
return to, and thus had to take up war production work.<BR>
Even at the height of the war, it took the blowing up of <BR>
the *civilian* economy to get the Germans to a *war*<BR>
economy! <G>)<BR>
<BR>
>Traveller Comparison: Are battle riders better than<BR>
>battleships? <BR>
<BR>
Yes: Battle Riders, ton for ton, will make a glowing wreck<BR>
out of any Battleship.  A Battle Rider force plus appropriate<BR>
Battle Tender will have numerous spinal mounts, compared to <BR>
a Battleship of equal tonnage *to the whole group* having<BR>
one, not to mention the Armor and Drives advantages - the<BR>
Battle Rider is all tactical equipment, the Battleship is<BR>
burdened with strategic equipment as well.<BR>
A Battle Rider force can be dispersed as heavy system<BR>
monitors, then gathered up when offensive action is <BR>
required.  Different Battle Riders can often be swapped<BR>
into a Riders + Tender force, allowing easy customization<BR>
for intended mission - specialized bombardment, assault,<BR>
or other craft could be carried.<BR>
<BR>
No: An outnumbered Battleship can usually retreat in good<BR>
order.  An overwhelmed Battle Rider force will certainly<BR>
lose a portion of it's strength, as it must leave a Rider<BR>
or two in a fatal rear guard position while the other<BR>
Riders dock and the vulnerable Battle Tender jumps out.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, use Battleships and Battle Riders to supplement<BR>
each other.  Use Battle Riders for offensive operations,<BR>
Battleships as core vessels for mobile strategic defense<BR>
operations.  Also, consider Battleship escorts for <BR>
Battle Rider groups, as the Battleships can cover for the<BR>
Riders during the short time frames of vulnerability.<BR>
Any deep penetration raids should *not* be Tender-based,<BR>
though invasions should be.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:49:02 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Walt Smith wrote;<BR>
><BR>
> >But most of the early 4 engine bombers were adequate to the task of tactical<BR>
> >bombing as well and could have been used as such. Further, the British spent<BR>
> >considerable sums on such aircraft as well that could have been spent on<BR>
> >tactical bombers or fighters.<BR>
<BR>
The problem was not so much of planes, but of pilots.<BR>
The attrition among the airforces of all countries was<BR>
horrific.  Pre D-Day, 60% of USAAF bomber crews<BR>
died before they could complete a 25 mission tour<BR>
(I'm amazed that some completed two or more such<BR>
tours).  Good bombadiers were hard to find, hard to<BR>
train, and difficult to keep alive.<BR>
<BR>
> I believe that the evidence before D-Day suggests that the 4 engine<BR>
> bombers were completely unsuitable for tactical bombing - they just<BR>
> couldn't find the targets with their bombs.<BR>
<BR>
Weather.  Cloud cover obscures the target.  Strong crosswinds<BR>
at lower altitude undetectable by the bomber at higher altitude<BR>
could throw bombs off target (the Norden bombsight was<BR>
incredibly accurate and could correct for wind, temperature,<BR>
speed, altitude, etc, but it couldn't measure the wind below its<BR>
25,000ft + altitude.  B29s in the Pacific were often very<BR>
ineffective at high altitude.  Once the Japanese air force was<BR>
crippled, the effectiveness of the B29s was dramatically<BR>
increased, most notably by flying as low as 5000 feet at<BR>
night over Japan and dropping thousands upon thousands of<BR>
incendiary cluster bombs.  A single B29 could drop more than<BR>
1,800 4lb magnesium-based and jellied oil incendiaries.)<BR>
<BR>
The result: you risk your bomber crews on targets they may not<BR>
even be able to see the tactical target, and you can't predict in<BR>
advance whether the target will definitely be visible at the time<BR>
they reach the target. Add in their vulnerability and it quickly<BR>
appears to be a poor risk, though sometimes worth taking.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:15:24 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 21 May 2000 12:37:51 -0700, "Legate Legion"<BR>
<legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    And, do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?  Because<BR>
>god doesn't trust the English in the Dark.<BR>
<BR>
I have nothing against the Brits, but that was a good one. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get <BR>
 used to the idea."                  - Robert A. Heinlein<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:28:51 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina?<BR>
<BR>
Ewan Quibell writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I was reading GT:BTC last night, and the Regina entry said that is was<BR>
>sector capital. I always thought Mora was sector capital. Did I miss<BR>
>something ? or is this a GURPS change ?<BR>
 <BR>
I very much doubt that it is a deliberate, approved GT change (Though I<BR>
can't say for sure, of course; only Loren can). _Behind the Claw_<BR>
contained a large number of facts that does not agree with previously<BR>
published material. The claim that Regina is the sector capital is one<BR>
of them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:51:02 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons Website<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 22 May 2000 11:19:01 -0500, "Smart, David J (David)"<BR>
<dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And for those of you interested in a ReaLife(tm) weapons sales website,<BR>
>check out Ballistica Maximus at:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.angelfire.com/biz/troopsupport/<BR>
><BR>
>Their available stock includes handguns, assault rifles, explosives, rocket<BR>
>launchers (man-portable & vehicle-mounted), mortars and heavier artillery<BR>
>pieces, combat aircraft, and armored vehicles (including T-55s), plus ammo<BR>
>of different capabilities. Combat vehicles come fully armed and<BR>
>combat-ready.<BR>
>They even have some patrol boats for sale though weaponry is optional (but a<BR>
>lovely selection is available).<BR>
<BR>
They sell BDU's for US$16.50 per set?!? It costs me more than three<BR>
times as much and I'm active duty! At cost my fanny! Grrrr...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get <BR>
 used to the idea."                  - Robert A. Heinlein<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:57:28 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Save Yourself:  OT<BR>
<BR>
An acknowledgement of a godhead or powerful diety does not qualify one to<BR>
"join" the ranks of any particular group.  It doesn't make you one with<BR>
those that believe. So we can't  simply say that a god or gods exist<BR>
qualifies a person, or race of beings, intelligent or not,  to be swept away<BR>
with all the teachings of one belief system.   As for satanic beings, it is<BR>
true that every religion has a dark side to oppose the good, moral teachings<BR>
even if he/it is not call Satan or one of his other names.    You don't need<BR>
to be a christian, jew, whatever to have a structure of good/evil<BR>
teachings/beliefs.   IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 05:58:44 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> At 01:07 PM 5/25/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
> >> Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
<BR>
> >Why do you say that Doug?<BR>
<BR>
> Magic allowed us to anticipate the Midway campaign, and plan a trap.<BR>
> Without the intercepts, we have to spread the fleet across to much<BR>
> territory.  The Japanese probably take Midway, and can begin land based<BR>
> bombing of Oahu.  We lose Hawaii.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that land based bombing of Oahu would have been<BR>
sufficient to loose Hawaii. Bombing an area is not the same as<BR>
taking an area. Moreover even if the US did loose Hawaii I don't<BR>
see that this would have lost them the war. When the US and<BR>
Japan fight they use up planes & ships & people. The US is a <BR>
bigger, richer country so they can stand this for longer and <BR>
(barring a Vietnam type situation) they will win.<BR>
<BR>
Loosing Hawaii to the Japanese would have been bad for the<BR>
Hawaiians but I don't see it as an event that would cause<BR>
the US to loose the war. It might lengthen the war if the US<BR>
decided they had to retake it but it would not have lost them<BR>
the war.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:03:10 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP world builder and character generator for TRAVELLER<BR>
<BR>
I just figured since you are all in the know on everything Traveller that<BR>
perhaps I was just being impudent.  I was aware of those programs as well as<BR>
the Beginnings character generator by  Paul Owensby.  I thought perhaps one<BR>
of the TML members might have had a hand in the development of the programs<BR>
for the GRIP stuff.  The URL is well documented on my web site. <G>  This<BR>
might be the solution to all you Mac users, maybe they will port it for you.<BR>
<BR>
...........ok its http://www.rpgrealms.com/griptrav.html<BR>
<BR>
I am going to get it and will give a review of the product to the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 8:24 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP world builder and character generator for TRAVELLER<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>On Thu, 25 May 2000 02:28:02 -0400 (EDT), "Talon"<BR>
><talon@skyenet.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Does anyoe know who developed these programs and if they are similar to<BR>
>>exisiting software that people from the TML have produced?  It is due out<BR>
in<BR>
>>6 days. I may go ahead and get them and give a review for the TML unless<BR>
>>someone is knowledgable about these. This is snipped from the GRIP<BR>
website:<BR>
><BR>
>Similar to existing software?  From the description, Heaven &<BR>
>Earth (go to Downport http://www.downport.com and select the<BR>
>appropriate link) meets most of the description.  To a lesser<BR>
>extent, so does Jim Vassilakos's GALACTIC (see the DOS Software<BR>
>page in the Computer Connection from Freelance Traveller's<BR>
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller Information Center). There are<BR>
>others that also have at least some of the described<BR>
>functionality; check the Computer Connection in Freelance<BR>
>Traveller's Information Center.<BR>
><BR>
>Now, if you're going to post this kind of stuff, FERCRISSAKES<BR>
>INCLUDE URIs SO WE CAN GO FIND OUT MORE AND EVENTUALLY GET THE<BR>
>DAMN THING! Sheesh!  Pardon my forthcoming relative crudeness,<BR>
>but this sort of thing is as bad as a wet dream of a woman coming<BR>
>on to you - and then walking away leaving you with painfully<BR>
>severe tumescence.<BR>
>--<BR>
>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:48:35 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: too many arguments...<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Wonderful.<BR>
> <BR>
> We have Mesons, <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Well, Meson discussion makes sense for Traveller, doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:58:34 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Nature of War in the Imperium? (Long, Long, Long!)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans schrieb:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> <BR>
>         Just some thoughts which may or may not be useful (and which nobody will<BR>
> read anyway).<BR>
<BR>
So this is a good example why one should *not* ban _all_ OT posting at a<BR>
ML. (Not to say that anyone intended this, of course!)<BR>
<BR>
Great write-up, wich helped a lot with understanding OTU (and YTU, of<BR>
course)..<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:12:13 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: too many arguments...<BR>
<BR>
<Gypsy Comet><BR>
Wonderful.<BR>
<BR>
We have Mesons, Theology, politeness AND WWII arguments all going at the<BR>
same time. The last person to start a useful topic is currently being<BR>
vilified (for other posts, but still...). <BR>
</Gypsy Comet><BR>
<BR>
While I agree with your general sentiment here, we were in no way<BR>
"arguing"  about mesons.  Our discussion was quite sanguine, and as meson<BR>
guns are an important part of Traveller (well, MTU and the OTU, anyway) I<BR>
don't think it's OT. <BR>
<BR>
OTOH, Satanists, WWI bombers, WW2 battleships, and the early US<BR>
constitution are taking up a disproportionate percentage of digests...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:19:13 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
> From:          Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> 1) All off topic threads are limited in length to 3 days<BR>
SNIP<BR>
> 2) All off topic threads are to be clearly labeled.<BR>
> I suggest that the list pick either [OT] or OT:<BR>
SNIP<BR>
<BR>
Wholeheartedly agreed (I was about to unsubscribe...). I would even <BR>
(sadly) suggest that repeated violation of the above should lead to <BR>
banning from the list, as only means of enforcement. It is very sad <BR>
that enforcement is needed, but the TML archives seem to indicate <BR>
that. If Rob Miracle does not have the time for this, I suggest to <BR>
ask him to authorize a handful of people for that, kind souls who <BR>
never resort to personal insults,  like MJ Dougherty, Eris <BR>
Reddoch, and Peter Newman. Anybody that nobody objects and accepts <BR>
the job... We have to face it, if some people would have banned after <BR>
the third personal insult, the ratio of signal-to-noise would have <BR>
been much better in the last months.<BR>
<BR>
As a Game Theorist, I would say that sometimes the mere <BR>
*existence* of an enforcement mechanism changes things.<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772<BR>
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:15:58 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Gaming Philosophy ( was Re: Speed of Psionics)<BR>
<BR>
 Clay <arioch@theriver.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > If I accepted that Psionics had a speed then to me _not_ calculating<BR>
> > the time would probably ruin the atmosphere of the game. The game is<BR>
> > supposed to model a reality and making up the details of that<BR>
> > reality, rather than calculating them according to the games written<BR>
> > rules, would destroy my 'willing suspension of disbelief'. If<BR>
> > the Referee is just going to make up things that are covered by game<BR>
> > rules or real world physics than you might as well put your Traveller<BR>
> > books away sit back and let the GM tell a story, not play a game.<BR>
<BR>
> With that line of thinking, why not calculate the trajectory of every single<BR>
> ricocheting bullet in a gun fight?  It would be more realistic that way.  What<BR>
> about calculating tire-wear on traveling vehicles?  There are a *ton* of other<BR>
> things you could calculate during the game in order to make it more realistic.<BR>
<BR>
What I said is that I don't believe that the Referee ought to make<BR>
up things that are covered by either the rules or reality. In most<BR>
cases the game rules deliberately exclude ricochets. In some cases<BR>
where they do account for ricochets said calculation is tedious.<BR>
I would say that Traveller (MT) accounts for ricochets using the<BR>
to hit and mishap rules. If the bullet hits a bad guy that's a hit<BR>
and it does not matter if the bullet ricocheted first. [1] If the<BR>
bullet hips a good guy (or (assuming you care) if it hits an innocent<BR>
bystander) than that is a mishap). The mishap causes the damage,<BR>
the ricocheting bullet only explains it. Similarly tire wear on<BR>
traveling vehicles is covered by the mishap rules (a tire blows out)<BR>
and by the TNE wear value rules.<BR>
 <BR>
> But the more you do it, the game becomes more of an exercise in<BR>
> physics/mathematics rather than a game.  The more you use dice and rules to<BR>
> handle things the more it becomes a ROLL-playing game and not a ROLE-playing<BR>
> game.<BR>
<BR>
This is why I prefer games with fewer rules. I am not saying<BR>
that more rules are better what I am saying is: The Referee and<BR>
the players _should_ usually use the rules set as written or as<BR>
changed by prior written modification by the Referee. The Referee <BR>
ought not to just make up things as she goes along very often or<BR>
the players are really listening to a story, not playing in a<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
> But if you prefer to calculate and look up every detail, more power to you if<BR>
> that is your cup of tea.  Each to their own.<BR>
<BR>
> In any case, the rules do state "Psionic activity, at the ranges given, is<BR>
> effectively instantaneous".  But if the GM says they travel at the speed of<BR>
> sound, then they travel at the speed of sound.  Deal with it or find a new game.<BR>
<BR>
Oh of course. The point I'm making is not what the Ref may<BR>
do it is what the Ref ought to do. There is a big difference.<BR>
To me the players ought to get a chance to play using the<BR>
written rules, or at least a close Referee modified facsimile <BR>
of them, or they are not really playing the game. YMMV<BR>
<BR>
To me the speed of sound is quite slow and having Psionics travel<BR>
at the speed of sound would be a vast change in the rules.<BR>
Moreover the sped of sound is quite variable depending on<BR>
medium and therefore, unless defined as speed of sound at STP,<BR>
is almost meaningless.<BR>
<BR>
[1] A ricochet probably won't hit as hard but since shots do<BR>
variable damage anyway this is already accounted for.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 02:18:13 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Leaving the Imperium (Was: Client States)<BR>
<BR>
On 24 May 00, at 15:50, VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant seems<BR>
> silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from trying.<BR>
> The parallel case in the Solomani Confederation (see recent TNS posts) seems<BR>
> to be on better legalistic grounds, given the nature of the Confederation. On<BR>
> the other hand, the Solomani are probably going to be much more aggressive in<BR>
> their response than the Imperium would be...<BR>
<BR>
Yes a world _can_ leave the 3rd Imperium. Point in case Retinae after the <BR>
3rd Frontier War. To quote from Library Data M-Z page 41:<BR>
<BR>
"With the Zhodani on their doorstep, Retinae applied for, and was granted, <BR>
disunion from the Imperium."<BR>
<BR>
Fairly conclusive. You can ask to leave.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:18:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Mora or Regina?<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> Ewan Quibell writes:<BR>
> >I was reading GT:BTC last night, and the Regina entry said <BR>
> that is was<BR>
> >sector capital. I always thought Mora was sector capital. Did I miss<BR>
> >something ? or is this a GURPS change ?<BR>
>  <BR>
> I very much doubt that it is a deliberate, approved GT change <BR>
> (Though I<BR>
> can't say for sure, of course; only Loren can). _Behind the Claw_<BR>
> contained a large number of facts that does not agree with previously<BR>
> published material. The claim that Regina is the sector capital is one<BR>
> of them.<BR>
<BR>
My understanding is that GT is an "officially  approved"  variant<BR>
... and thus GT canon is not the same as 'normal' canon (although<BR>
there is a lot of overlap).  So, for example,  changes  in  canon<BR>
from CT to T4 are 'errors', changes in canon from CT  to  GT  are<BR>
variants  (and  as  such  are   both   more   common   and   more<BR>
'acceptable').  Landgrabbers should identify  their  write-up  as<BR>
"canon", "GT canon", or "non-canon".<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:23:27 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT: <BR>
<BR>
"samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> It seems to me that given the significantly higher productivity<BR>
> of the US that it could have defeated Japan fairly handily<BR>
> without Magic (even while spending most of its resources<BR>
> in Europe). I am sure that casualties would have been<BR>
> higher without Magic but Japan simply did not have the<BR>
> resources for a prolonged war. The US could have survived<BR>
> having its ships, planes, and soldiers blown up for longer<BR>
> than the Japanese could have. Moreover the US would have been<BR>
> well fed during all this while the Japanese would not.<<BR>
> <BR>
> Unless they were deployed in an inferior manner due to lack of intelligence<BR>
> and destroyed piecemeal.<BR>
<BR>
This is possible but unlikely. Moreover unless casualty ratios<BR>
were _extremely_ lopsided than Japan would still have run out <BR>
of materials first.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover I'm not so sure that 'lack of intelligence' is really<BR>
an issue. The US could have invaded the home islands using<BR>
resources whose locations were known. (Alaska for example).<BR>
Japan simply did not have the oil, etc. they would have needed to<BR>
fly enough planes to bomb into the ocean all the ships the<BR>
US could have built.<BR>
<BR>
> But why wouldn't Japan have been well fed?<BR>
<BR>
Already answered by others.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:29:43 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > The environment here on the TML has been getting a bit<BR>
> > hostile lately. I would like to propose a few rules that<BR>
> > may help make it a less hostile place. <BR>
<BR>
> What's the point, Peter ?<BR>
> These rules can't be enforced.<BR>
<BR>
It's not _my_ list so I don't have the right to create<BR>
enforceable rules. Therefor any rules I propose are<BR>
optional until adopted by the list owner, list moderator,<BR>
or the majority of the list with the acquiescence of the<BR>
owner, moderator, or both.<BR>
<BR>
If the rules I proposed were adopted than (IMHO) the list<BR>
would be a better place and that's my point.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:28:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Are these warbots impervious to EMP?  What about Battle Dress? I can<BR>
envision a group of warriors in Battle Dress getting nuked and having the<BR>
suit freeze up on them, protecting them on the inside from radiation but<BR>
basically immobilizing the suit.  A group of normal troops could then clean<BR>
up (unfortunately I just had a flash back to ewoks and storm troopers) .  I<BR>
can see where an army made up of just robots could be taken out by one<BR>
nicely placed EMP(ala Matrix, although I am not sure but it seems like a lot<BR>
of handwavium was involved there too, doesn't that require a nuclear<BR>
detonation of some sort? The physicists on the list can enlighten us).<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 2:56 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>samwise1 writes:<BR>
>><BR>
>> While suicide troops have a very definite advantage, I think unrestricted<BR>
>> human creativity would find a way around even significantly overwhelming<BR>
>> numbers.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, suicide troops aren't all that useful in many situations (troops<BR>
who never have morale failures is a separate issue).  There are a lot of<BR>
tactical situations which aren't terribly subject to creativity on the short<BR>
term, or where one human per 10 warbots is good enough.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2507<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (rly-yb05.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.5]) by air-yb01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:38:26 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:38:03 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA24562;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 10:37:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 10:37:07 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA24502<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:37:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:37:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005261437.KAA24502@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2507<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2508</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 9:08:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2508<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina <BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Visual Basic project<BR>
Re: Officers<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Weapons Website<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:36:33 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> >It seems to me that given the significantly higher productivity<BR>
> >of the US that it could have defeated Japan fairly handily <BR>
> >without Magic (even while spending most of its resources<BR>
> >in Europe). I am sure that casualties would have been<BR>
> >higher without Magic but Japan simply did not have the<BR>
> >resources for a prolonged war. The US could have survived<BR>
> >having its ships, planes, and soldiers blown up for longer<BR>
> >than the Japanese could have. Moreover the US would have been<BR>
> >well fed during all this while the Japanese would not.<BR>
> <BR>
>   Essentially correct (IMHO), but if it had been the US carrier <BR>
> force destroyed at Midway (ForEx) then the USN now has to pay _huge_<BR>
> logistical costs to "island-hop" into even the outer perimeter<BR>
> of the Japanese defenses - and those logistical costs will mean<BR>
> much greater times to achieve ends and/or lost battles/campaigns<BR>
> in the process. <BR>
>   It might very well have led to either a tremendously long drawn<BR>
> out war or the progressive nuking of each Japanese major naval<BR>
> base in turn as the final advance got under way...<BR>
<BR>
I disagree with your basic premise that the US would have had<BR>
to go across the Pacific. If you look at a map of the North<BR>
Pacific you will notice how close the Aleutian islands are<BR>
to Hokkaido. Obviously the rough weather of the area might/would<BR>
cause casualties but the US could have bypassed all the Pacific<BR>
Islands and struck Japan directly if they had had to. <BR>
<BR>
Moreover I am not discussing how much victory would have cost the <BR>
US I am only asserting that, given the relative productivity's <BR>
of the two countries the Americans would (barring a Vietnam type<BR>
scenario) have eventually won.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:41:15 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina <BR>
<BR>
Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I was reading GT:BTC last night, and the Regina entry said that is was<BR>
> sector capital. I always thought Mora was sector capital. Did I miss<BR>
> something ? or is this a GURPS change ?<BR>
<BR>
Mora was sector capitol until Norris (in both MT and GURPS <BR>
Traveller) became the Archduke of Deneb. When he became an<BR>
Archduke he now ranked Duchess Delphine of Mora and his<BR>
Ducal fief, Regina, became the sector capitol. However IIRC<BR>
Norris kept Mora as _Domain_ capitol as it is much more centrally<BR>
located (and less vulnerable to attack) than Regina is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:43:02 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> It's not _my_ list so I don't have the right to create<BR>
> enforceable rules. Therefor any rules I propose are<BR>
> optional until adopted by the list owner, list moderator,<BR>
> or the majority of the list with the acquiescence of the<BR>
> owner, moderator, or both.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, I very much support these rules. I agree that they will be difficult<BR>
to enforce, but that's still better than the alternative: what's been going<BR>
on lately. I was contemplating unsubscribing.<BR>
<BR>
> If the rules I proposed were adopted than (IMHO) the list<BR>
> would be a better place and that's my point.<BR>
<BR>
I agree again. This list has gotten annoying to read lately, what with the<BR>
flamefests and off-topic posts.<BR>
<BR>
However, I realize that enforcement of these rules would be problematic.<BR>
That's why I'm going to start adding the names of obnoxious TML members to<BR>
my killfile. <BR>
<BR>
Long Live Traveller, in its many forms.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:50:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
on 5/26/00 7:28 AM, Talon at talon@skyenet.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Are these warbots impervious to EMP?  What about Battle Dress? I can<BR>
> envision a group of warriors in Battle Dress getting nuked and having the<BR>
> suit freeze up on them, protecting them on the inside from radiation but<BR>
> basically immobilizing the suit.  A group of normal troops could then clean<BR>
> up (unfortunately I just had a flash back to ewoks and storm troopers) .  I<BR>
> can see where an army made up of just robots could be taken out by one<BR>
> nicely placed EMP(ala Matrix, although I am not sure but it seems like a lot<BR>
> of handwavium was involved there too, doesn't that require a nuclear<BR>
> detonation of some sort? The physicists on the list can enlighten us).<BR>
<BR>
One would imagine that battle dress, and robots for that matter, are EMP<BR>
hardened.  We do that now, hence the high cost of Military as opposed to<BR>
civilian electronics (among many other factors).  I believe this is one of<BR>
the the reasons for the military's use of Gallium Arsenide semiconductors,<BR>
as oppsed to silicon.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, the largest wooden structure in the world is the EMP test platform at<BR>
Kirtland Airbase. And I'm pretty sure they don't use nukes to generate EMP.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:51:30 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor writes:<BR>
<BR>
>My understanding is that GT is an "officially  approved"  variant<BR>
>... and thus GT canon is not the same as 'normal' canon (although<BR>
>there is a lot of overlap).<BR>
<BR>
Loren has kept silent on the subject, but until he says anything to the<BR>
contrary, I'm going to believe that the history of the GT universe is<BR>
identical to the history of the OT universe up until some point in 1116<BR>
and that all changes in the GT history flows from a single divergence<BR>
point (For one thing, that would be so much more elegant than multiple<BR>
differences, and for another, it is a classic tradition of alternate<BR>
world fiction). As such, all CT and T4 material and all historical<BR>
information in MT and TNE material is, IMO, part of the GT canon.<BR>
<BR>
The GT playtests so far certainly shows that most authors have gone to<BR>
great lengths to stick to CT material and, insofar as it is possible under<BR>
the circumstances, MT material. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:54:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought:<BR>
<BR>
Some people have  poor  social  skills,  and  seem  incapable  of<BR>
improving them.  That's just a sad fact of life.  Such people are<BR>
often rejected/excluded from social groups and contact and become<BR>
loners.  Some loners "go postal" (as in Columbine  High  School).<BR>
While insulting behavior can  be  disturbing  in  person,  it  is<BR>
'merely' extremely irritating when through a long distance  forum<BR>
(such as the  TML).  Perhaps  we  should  be  more  tolerant  ...<BR>
ignoring such outbursts from these people  rather  than  bringing<BR>
sanctions and kicking them off the list.  This was they are  less<BR>
likely to become loners ... and eventually dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
(This post should not be construed as suggesting that  anyone  on<BR>
the list *is* a danger to society, merely that none of  us  knows<BR>
much about anybody else here.  Nor am I suggesting all loners are<BR>
dangerous ... only some of them.)<BR>
<BR>
As to the issue of signal-to-noise ratio: 80% of the problem  are<BR>
the responses to abusive posts, not the abusive posts themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 03:06:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
On 24 May 00, at 19:58, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >I vote for His Imperial Majesty's Own Ir'klan Commandos<BR>
> >(from Menorb/Regina). <BR>
<BR>
> If they are Imperial Army, they'd be the <insert local noble>'s Own.<BR>
<BR>
> Commando is overused.<BR>
<BR>
How about my favourite "The Emperor's Own Martian Rifles (The Loyal <BR>
Greens)". A former Solomani Regiment that went over to the Imperium <BR>
during the Rim War, now recruited from defectors and independent worlds <BR>
around the Confederation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:17:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
> Loren has kept silent on the subject, but until he says anything to the<BR>
> contrary, I'm going to believe that the history of the GT universe is<BR>
> identical to the history of the OT universe up until some point in 1116<BR>
> and that all changes in the GT history flows from a single divergence<BR>
> point (For one thing, that would be so much more elegant than multiple<BR>
> differences, and for another, it is a classic tradition of alternate<BR>
> world fiction). As such, all CT and T4 material and all historical<BR>
> information in MT and TNE material is, IMO, part of the GT canon.<BR>
<BR>
I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if the GT<BR>
and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For example,<BR>
there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a population of<BR>
millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas, but in the<BR>
billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we believe?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:15:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Visual Basic project<BR>
<BR>
I just finished a college-level Visual Basic class.  <BR>
The class requirements included an independent programming<BR>
project, which ended up taking quite a bit of time.<BR>
<BR>
My project worked, but was a bit patchy and buggy.<BR>
There were functions I couldn't get working within the<BR>
time allowed, and so coded around.  Still, it produced<BR>
the effect I was working on.  It wasn't up to the <BR>
standards of some programs others have done on the same<BR>
subject, but it is only version 1.0.<BR>
<BR>
It's a Classic Traveller character generator for Book 1.<BR>
My professor had never heard of RPG's before, but she<BR>
loved it...and gave me an "A".<BR>
<BR>
Thank you Traveller!!  <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:26:06 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Officers<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Then, add up all the 'small' ships<BR>
> > and SDBs of the sub 2000 ton range.<BR>
> > How many SDBs are there in a  defended<BR>
> > system?  Each one will likely have 2-<BR>
> > 4 officers, even if they are O4 and below.<BR>
> <BR>
> Why ?<BR>
> <BR>
> It is common in earth navies for small craft to be commanded by NCOs.<BR>
> <BR>
> If the SDB is large enough to require an officer, then fine, but there's<BR>
> no reason for a ship with a crew of less than ten to have more than one<BR>
> officer, if any.<BR>
<BR>
However, strictly speaking the SDB is too big to be a small craft.  The<BR>
Keith brothers used the SDB crew as an example in one of the FASA sets.<BR>
It had a lieutenant (sometimes a sublieutenant) as CO and an ensign as<BR>
either Chief Gunner or Chief Engineer, I forget which.  Everyone else <BR>
was a petty officer or rating.   I'd typically give the jump shuttle to<BR>
a sublieutenant (ensigns usually get jobs with more supervision, and in<BR>
High Guard it looks like all ships (and probably craft) should have an <BR>
officer).<BR>
<BR>
Ingo wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > used for crap, semi-skilled work (which would explain the mutiny<BR>
> > problem the Navy had).<BR>
><BR>
> Interesting! Can you give me a source about this, or a short summary?<BR>
<BR>
The _Gazelle_ deckplan writeup segregated officer and enlisted quarters<BR>
due to a percieved danger of mutiny in the Fleet.  I think the _Gazelle_<BR>
is supposed to be a 4FW-era design, originally.  Traders & Gunboats, CT.<BR>
<BR>
 -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:04:11 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Jimmy Simpson,<BR>
<BR>
> >Tod Glenn schrieb:<BR>
> >[snip]<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Question.  Given the expense of battle dress, do military robots become <BR>
> > cost<BR>
> > > effective as a replacement.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I'd say so, and not only because of the direct cost of a milbot vs. the<BR>
> >cost of a battle dress(many dog-sized warbots would be much cheaper),<BR>
> >but also the indirect cost of loosing soldiers and having to tell that<BR>
> >to the media. "The Imperial Forces report no casualties except a few<BR>
> >attack robots. The area is secured." (and who in the media will care for<BR>
> >the exact numbers in such a case?)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Of course, this is not true for the 3I, because the cultural influence<BR>
> >of the Vilani would probably block this approach. The Solomani<BR>
> >Condfederation, on the other hand... </FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
<BR>
  its at least canon that the 3I banned warbots after the Dover Gabe<BR>
  incident around 120-160 Imperial, when new TL13 warbots had some<BR>
  'problems with their AI'. Each new techlevel saw experiments with<BR>
  AI to control weapon systems, most failed. e.g. the late 3I had its<BR>
  Kinunir incidents.<BR>
<BR>
> Think Hiver and their Bruisers (?)<BR>
<BR>
  The Hivers are well known to prefer warbots.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:41:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
> I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if<BR>
> the GT and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For<BR>
> example, there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a<BR>
> population of millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas,<BR>
> but in the billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we<BR>
> believe?<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm ... S3 is circa 1105, BtC is circa 1116 ...<BR>
<BR>
(a)  At some point between 1105 and 1116 there was a global  orgy<BR>
     without birth control.  This has resulted in a sizeable baby<BR>
     boom?  Maybe not.  Or how about ...<BR>
<BR>
(b)  I've always taken  S3  (and  similar  sources)  to  be  IISS<BR>
     records and open to error.  IIRC there was  an  introductory<BR>
     adventure (Adventure 0)  which  was  based  around  a  group<BR>
     resurveying worlds in the Spinward Marches to help clear  up<BR>
     errors and ommissions  from  IGS-2.  Thus  S3  is  in  error<BR>
     (something which can sometimes trip up the complacant PC).<BR>
<BR>
     "My lord.  We've been told that these Fre'mem only exist  is<BR>
     small bands wondering here and there.  I  believe  a  secret<BR>
     has been  kept  from  us.  I  believe  they  exist  in  vast<BR>
     numbers.  Vast."  (Dune)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:51:11 -0500<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons Website<BR>
<BR>
Pete wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> They sell BDU's for US$16.50 per set?!? It costs me more than three<BR>
> times as much and I'm active duty! At cost my fanny! Grrrr...<BR>
<BR>
Try the pawn shops. I got mine there at good price and virtually new to boot<BR>
when I was active duty.<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:13:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/24/00 12:02 PM, ajackson@molly.iii.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> The highest number of particle decays will occur right in front of the <BR>
>> barrel<BR>
><BR>
> <waving hand madly><BR>
> I thought nuclear damping technology was used to off-set this.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm hearing more how meson guns don't work than how the might. Have they run<BR>
> out of suspension-of-disbelief juice?<BR>
<BR>
To quote a line used in discussing bad SF movies on alt.callahans:<BR>
<BR>
"I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, not hang it by the neck until<BR>
it's dead!"<BR>
<BR>
In other words, there are limits to just how far people are willing to<BR>
stretch things.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:25:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:25 AM -0700 5/24/00, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>>This is the canonical explanation.  It just happens to be completely <BR>
>>wrong.  A half-life of X seconds doesn't mean that particles decay <BR>
>>in X seconds -- it means that particles decay exponentially over a <BR>
>>period, with a decay curve such that half will have decayed after X <BR>
>>seconds.<BR>
><BR>
> OTOH, since they have nuclear damper technology, they have<BR>
> the ability to control the rate of nuclear processes.  It isn't too<BR>
> far fetched to presume that some technology exists that allows<BR>
> one to get the mesons to decay at some distance from the gun<BR>
<BR>
Except that I'm pretty sure that meson decay involves the *strong*<BR>
nuclear force, and nuclear dampers/accelerators are *specifically*<BR>
stated as involving the weak nuclear force.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:31:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Physicists. Physicians are medical doctors.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> And the problem with this is that anything that would let them do<BR>
>> *that* would also allow doing a lot of other things that we don't see<BR>
>> happening. <BR>
><BR>
> You mean like...controlling the rate of radioactive decay in radioactive <BR>
> elements? ;)<BR>
><BR>
> Based on the existence of nuclear dampers, particle decay probably can be <BR>
> influenced in some obscure manner.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, as noted elsewhere, nuclear dampers affect the *weak* nuclear<BR>
force. If I remember correctly, meson decay involves the *strong*<BR>
nuclear force. <BR>
<BR>
The two forces are about as related as electromagnetism is to the weak<BR>
force. That is, there's a relationship, and at sufficiently high<BR>
energies, the forces become the same. But controlling one doesn't get<BR>
you very far controlling the other.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:34:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson schrieb:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Okay, our main problem with meson tech seems to be that we don't know<BR>
>>> exactly when a specific meson will decay. If we knew this, we could<BR>
>>> bring each meson to its own "rewuired reltivistic speed" to let it decay<BR>
>>> in the target. I know, current physics say that this is not possible,<BR>
>>> but let us assume that the TravTech inventors are a bit ahead of our own<BR>
>>> understanding of physical laws. Therefore, each meson is either<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> a) examined and accelerated to the speed needed for the effect or<BR>
>>> b) created with a specific life time (sic!), which is the same for all<BR>
>>> weapons and thus the required relativistic speed is identical for all<BR>
>>> weapons the beam.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> I am sure that all you physicians at this list will say "ARG!", but<BR>
>>> after all, you don't know how to build a jump drve, do you? ;-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Physicists. Physicians are medical doctors.<BR>
><BR>
> Ooops. Sorry. I once knew that, but I somehow lost it. Thanks for<BR>
> reminding me.<BR>
><BR>
> I probaly need a physician for my brain... :-)<BR>
>  <BR>
>> And the problem with this is that anything that would let them do<BR>
>> *that* would also allow doing a lot of other things that we don't see<BR>
>> happening.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> That's the problem with a lot of SF type ideas. The ability to do X,<BR>
>> often includes the ability to do Y and Z. So you have to explain why<BR>
>> folks can do X aren't also doing Y and Z.<BR>
><BR>
> Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
> lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
> technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
<BR>
Well, if you can *control* the decay rate, mass transmutation becomes<BR>
*easy*. That alone changes things utterly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:36:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
>> lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
>> technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
><BR>
> Temporarily suspending belief in quantum mechanics, how about this? If you<BR>
> can determine when decay is going to occur, you can produce interesting<BR>
> materials. Suppose that you can isolate all of a certain isotope which will<BR>
> decay at exactly 12:00 on June 25, 2000. You can then make a device which<BR>
> will release lots of radiation in a short time.<BR>
><BR>
> Or, suppose that you can isolate all of the atoms which will decay at 12:00<BR>
> on June 25, 2000. You then wait until a few seconds before the decay happens<BR>
> and stop the process with a nuclear damper. You then use the resulting<BR>
> device to jump start your jump drive in an emergency. You turn off the<BR>
> damper, and with a loud *zap* your jump drive starts up again.<BR>
><BR>
> Using the same idea, you can make a device which releases a sudden and<BR>
> intense pulse of neutrinos/mesons/whatever. Maybe it'a a good emergency<BR>
> signal for a ship crew.<BR>
<BR>
Try making a fission bomb with an *obscene* yield as *all* the atoms in<BR>
it fission at the same time. Without any explosives. Hell, if you<BR>
aren't worried about having a long wait until it goes off, you can just<BR>
use a solid lump of uranium or plutonium with *no* other parts. Just<BR>
pick atoms that will go off a sufficiently long time in the future (a<BR>
time bomb with a clock you can't stop).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:40:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 25 May 2000, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> The Knights Templar are not Christians they are satanic devil<BR>
>>> worshipers as was established by a French court. [g, d, r]<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Well, that makes an even stronger case for.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> BTW, I have always viewed Satanists as just another christian sect.<BR>
>> <BR>
> They could also be Jewish.  You have to believe in Satan to worship him,<BR>
> so Satanic devil worshippers would have to be either Christian or Jewish.<BR>
> People of other religions may worship other devils, but cannot worship<BR>
> Satan.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but "Satan" is Christian. The Jewish scripture doesn't have him.<BR>
They have the guy who made the bet with God regarding Job. And his<BR>
function is sort of "chief prosecuting attorney" for God. *Much*<BR>
different role, and possibly a different name. Certainly *not* the same<BR>
as Lucifer, the angel who was cast out of Heaven.<BR>
<BR>
Islam has a Satan figure *much* closer to Christianity's. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:44:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>BTW, I have always viewed Satanists as just another christian sect.<BR>
><BR>
> Not really. Christianity, in all of the forms I can think of, is<BR>
> characterized by a belief in the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Although<BR>
> there have been many variations on this central tenet, and many of these<BR>
> variations have little in common with each other in practice, the notion<BR>
> that one can receive or attain fulfillment in Christ is a defining<BR>
> characteristic of Christianity. If someone doesn't believe in the saving<BR>
> grace of Christ, then they can't really be called a Christian. Since<BR>
> Satanism was characterized in the middle ages (whether it actually existed<BR>
> as such) as a complete inversion of Christianity in which fulfillment could<BR>
> be received from Satan, this would preclude them from being Christians.<BR>
> Since modern Satanism is characterized by dressed up "social Darwinism" and<BR>
> a celebration of selfishness, this would preclude them from being<BR>
> Christians.<BR>
><BR>
> Christianity is not a heading under which a bunch of various deities and<BR>
> devils fall which can then be picked. The name alone should suggest that<BR>
> there is a focal point.<BR>
<BR>
The point you are missing is that Satanism is *100%* based on<BR>
Christianity doctrine and theology, just inverted. That's *why* we lump<BR>
it in with Christianity. Satanists believe the *exact* same thing,<BR>
except that they are either "fighting for Satan" in hopes he'll *win*,<BR>
or they have decided that what he can grant them in this life is worth<BR>
what may come afterwards.<BR>
<BR>
You may not like them, and you definitely disagree with them, but<BR>
there's *no* escaping the fact that they are based entirely on your<BR>
faith, twisted as their version may be.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I think anyone who follows a "faith" that essentially<BR>
requires accepting the entire Bible, plus most of the other stuff<BR>
Christianity has accumulated over the last two millenia, and then<BR>
joining the side that is supposed to *lose* has *got* to have more than<BR>
a few screws loose.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:52:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 25 May 2000 16:31:04 -0400 (EDT), "Benyamene' ZeAbe'<BR>
> Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>You forgot Islam, whose members believe in "The Adversary" as well.<BR>
><BR>
> As a Jew, my understanding of my own religion (N.B., I'm by no<BR>
> means a Talmudic scholar, so I may be entirely off-base) and of<BR>
> Islam is that The Adversary isn't in any sense coequal with G-d;<BR>
> rather, he/she/it was appointed as a "prosecutor", "public<BR>
> defender", or "special master" for specific cases, such as<BR>
> recounted in the story of Job.<BR>
><BR>
> Certainly, while I _have_ met those who professed to be<BR>
> Satanists, I have never met one from a Jewish or Moslem<BR>
> background; they have invariably been from Christian - and more<BR>
> specifically, evangelical - backgrounds.<BR>
<BR>
There have been Islamic sects that bore pretty much the same<BR>
relationship to mainstream Islam that Satanist does to mainstream<BR>
Christianity. <BR>
<BR>
They've mostly been wiped out long ago, and aren't likely to arise in<BR>
non-islamic communities anymore than Satanism can arise in<BR>
non-Christian ones.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:55:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Devil worship implies belief in devils.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes. That's been established and I don't disagree.<BR>
><BR>
>>If you don't believe that Satan exists, how can you be a Satanist?<BR>
><BR>
> Obviously.<BR>
><BR>
>>Actually, what this really proves is that "Satanists" by and large don't<BR>
>>exist.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, this has nothing to do with whether or not Satanists exist and<BR>
> everything to do with whether or not one who believes in the primacy of<BR>
> Satan, in some form or another, can be called a Christian (as both you and<BR>
> Evyn contend) or a Jew (as you contend). This doesn't seem to be the case.<BR>
<BR>
Satanists believe in Christ, and Y-hw-h (or in the Trinity, depending on<BR>
which version they follow). And they believe in Satan. They just have<BR>
their positions swapped. <BR>
<BR>
Satanism is Christianity as viwed thru a funhouse mirror.<BR>
<BR>
>>But really, to accept Satan implies the acceptance of the<BR>
> Judeo-Christian-Islamic<BR>
>>pantheon in one of its three primary manifestations.<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, no. Christianity, Judaism and Islam (as well most religions, with the<BR>
> exception, I suppose, of some strains of neo-Paganism) are not merely a case<BR>
> of "picking" a "pantheon".<BR>
<BR>
True enough. But Satanist *accept* Christian doctrine. They merely<BR>
choose to follow Satan rather than God. That's the *only* difference.<BR>
<BR>
> Satanism as originated by Anton LaVey) the belief in the importance of the<BR>
> saving grace of Christ (a defining characteristic of Christianity) as an<BR>
> intermediary between mankind and the creator is necessarily missing. Without<BR>
> a belief in the saving grace of Christ, it's difficult to define someone as<BR>
> a Christian.<BR>
<BR>
What makes you think Satanists *don't* believe in that? Their religion<BR>
is based on *rejecting* it, and accepting Satan *instead*. Check out<BR>
any Satanist stuff you can find that isn't *complete* ripoff<BR>
publishing. All the rituals and doctrine are based on<BR>
rejecting/reversing Christian rituals and doctrine.<BR>
<BR>
> It seems like what you're saying now is that Satanism is linked and shares<BR>
> some degree of common ground with Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I would<BR>
> not disagree with this statement at all. It's also not the position which<BR>
> Evyn stated, which is that one must be a Christian to be a Satanist, or<BR>
> which you modified: one must be a Christian or a Jew to be a Satanist.<BR>
<BR>
One must *accept Christian Scriptures and doctrine as true* to be a<BR>
Satanist. It's not even necessary to believe Satan is supreme. Merely<BR>
that he can do things for you. There *are* scriptural references which<BR>
support this. As well as ones that have been argued as proving that<BR>
Satan has dominion over Earth.<BR>
<BR>
> I will agree that any form of Satanism which might exist could only descend<BR>
> from a religion in which Satan has a place. This much is plainly obvious.<BR>
> It's also not what you, nor Evyn, actually said. However, such a religion<BR>
> would be different enough from Christianity, Judaism or Islam to no longer<BR>
> be Christianity, Judaism or Islam, which was precisely what I've said from<BR>
> the very beginning.<BR>
<BR>
Christianity covers a *lot* more ground than you seem to realize. Check<BR>
out things like Manicheanism, and the dualist sects that sprang up.<BR>
Sure those are *mostly* considered heresies now. But they existed as<BR>
*part* of Christianity. <BR>
<BR>
Don't confuse "mainstream Christianity" with "a Christian religion". <BR>
<BR>
If it accepts the Bible, Christ, and most of the theological doctrine<BR>
that's evolved from them over the centuries, it's Christian. <BR>
<BR>
> As an example, a current and commonly held understanding of the origins of<BR>
> Judaism is that the God of the pre-Jewish Hebrews was a "household god",<BR>
> worshipped in ancient Mesopotamia by Avram and others. To say that the<BR>
> Jewish god descended from the matrix of gods and goddesses in ancient<BR>
> Mesopotamia would be entirely correct. To say, however, that Judaism *is*<BR>
> simply a belief in the sycretic ancient Mesopotamian pantheon would be<BR>
> incorrect. Similarly, Christianity descended from Judaism, but to say that<BR>
> Christians *are* Jews would be incorrect (and which is something you don't<BR>
> appear to believe as you, yourself, distinguished Judaism and Christianity<BR>
> in your initial response to Evyn).<BR>
<BR>
Christianity *was* a "Jewish sect" until it was a lot older than<BR>
Satanism is.<BR>
<BR>
> In any religion which would be called Satanism, the exact same figures which<BR>
> appear in Judaism and Christianity may very well be used. However,<BR>
> individual narratives would be understood differently, the intellectual<BR>
> underpinnings would be completely different and the practices and<BR>
> observances of such a religion would be completely different. In short, it<BR>
> would no longer be Christianity, Judaism or Islam, but a different religion.<BR>
<BR>
The observances aren't "different" in most meaningful ways. Instead<BR>
they are *inversions* of Christian practice. The best known example is<BR>
that whole bit of saying the Lord's Prayer backwards. Heck, the whole<BR>
"Black Mass" doesn't differ much more  from "normal" Christian practice<BR>
than the masses of some varieties of Christianity do from each other.<BR>
<BR>
The whole *thing* is like that. They take the whole thing from<BR>
Christianity and do a "wrong is right" switch on it.<BR>
<BR>
> any offshoot of Christianity which believed in<BR>
> the primacy of the "evil principle" would no longer be Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
Which is where we differ. Also, as I noted, not all Satanists *do*<BR>
believe that Satan is supreme. Some think he's "equal" to God. Guess<BR>
what, as I mentioned above, there have been *Christian* sects in the<BR>
past that believed this. *Major* ones. There were major battles over<BR>
"God will win!" and "We are here to help make sure God will win!"<BR>
<BR>
And others don't believe he's even equal, just that he can do something<BR>
for them. Remember the tale of "Faust".<BR>
<BR>
> Satanic-Wiccan, a Satanic-Buddhist, a Satanic-Shintoist or a Satanic-Hindu,<BR>
> merely that one couldn't be a Satanic-Christian or a Satanic-Jew (and I<BR>
> would add Satanic-Muslim). My contention from the beginning, and I was very<BR>
> clear about this, was that anybody who could reasonably be called a Satanist<BR>
> could *not* be called a Christian or a Jew. That's all.<BR>
<BR>
There a difference between "Satanists are Christians" and "Satanism is<BR>
a Christian sect".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2508<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></BIG></BIG><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 12:08:03 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 12:07:13 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA28837;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 12:05:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 12:04:44 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA28532<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 12:04:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:04:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005261604.MAA28532@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2508<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</BIG></HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2509</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 10:13:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2509<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: messoncannons<BR>
Re: Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Messoncannons<BR>
Re: The will to win<BR>
Re: Client States (with some OT Constitutional content)<BR>
Re: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
GRIP -  First Impressions<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
[OT} RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: messoncannons<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
Re: TML Rules<BR>
[OT] Re: too many arguments...<BR>
Lunar Institute of Technology<BR>
RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
GT: Alien Races 3<BR>
Regeina, Sector Capital?<BR>
hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:21:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
>> >>>Our Jump Commando can pop a single Psi Booster and become<BR>
>> Psi Str 15. He then Teleports half a Parsec towards the<BR>
>> other system carrying 12 kilos of equipment (including<BR>
>> a space suit & air [This is a Formidable Task so he needs<BR>
>> to roll a 15+ to succeed, he has a +12 so he will only fail<BR>
>> if a 2 is rolled]. He instantly pops out half way to the<BR>
>> base.<<<<<BR>
><BR>
>> He will also be a block of frozen ice, unless he starts out from about the<BR>
>> orbit of Pluto, I believe...see Niven's "Theory and Practice of<BR>
>> Teleportation."<BR>
><BR>
> If he retains his starting velocity (as is Traveller canon) he <BR>
> will be racing through space at many kps and will be dead<BR>
> if he runs into a sub milligram particle but his internal body<BR>
> temperature will not have changed. It is only converting<BR>
> momentum to heat that will cook or freeze him. A simple space<BR>
> to space jump will avoid this.<BR>
<BR>
No it won't. You forgot that he's *gained* an enormous amount of<BR>
potential energy from *somewhere*. Jump from Earth orbit to half a<BR>
parsec out, and you've gained potential energy equivalent to a velocity<BR>
of almost 40 km/sec! Solely due to moving that much higher up in Sol's<BR>
gravity well. <BR>
<BR>
Jump in the opposite direction and you *lose* that much potential<BR>
energy. Which, if it appeared as heat would vaporize you. <BR>
<BR>
One way to handle this would be to convert the PE into *directed* KE.<BR>
Porting in, he'd get a velocity of 40 km/sec, same as if he'd let<BR>
gravity drag him to the same location (which would take millenia). <BR>
<BR>
So porting out, he'd wind up moving away from the star at the same speed.<BR>
<BR>
Now that I think about it, this makes more sense than Niven's idea of<BR>
"PE turns to heat when you port lower".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:40:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 2:01 AM -0700 5/24/00, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
>>>  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>  A virus would be the choice agent.  Not easy to detect, particularly<BR>
>>>  if it is a new strain.  Say viral hemoragic fever.  Something very<BR>
>>>  lethal, with a contaigous period before it becomes symptomatic.  By<BR>
>>>  the time you know it's there, it's too late.  Make it easy to seize<BR>
>>>  the facility you want, too.  No survivors equals no vector.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Lassa fever is a great example.  It hasn't spread much because it<BR>
>>>  tends to kill everyone in a locale before they spread it elsewhere<BR>
>>>  (good thing!). Highly contiagius, highly lethal.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Yes, It's evil.  But if your opponent is evil...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Then you'll be as or more evil to win???  That's exactly the sort of<BR>
>>ends-justify-the-means thinking that leads to all manner of horrors.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I'm reminded of a short story I read *many* years ago, where the<BR>
>>Soviets nuked the US and most of our half of the world and the<BR>
>>response by the (very) few dying survivors (who had been attacked<BR>
>>too suddenly to launch a counter attack) was they they would die<BR>
>>with their missiles unlaunched since if they did that at least a<BR>
>>portion of humanity would survive.  A counterattack would have<BR>
>>toasted the Soviets and their portion of the world as badly as their<BR>
>>attack toasted the other half and likely made humanity extinct.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Such a decision fits my definition of true heroism and honorable<BR>
>>action, sinking to the level of your opponents is best outgrown in<BR>
>>grade school.  Btw, anyone here remember the name or author of<BR>
>>this story?<BR>
><BR>
> If it's the same story I'm thinking of, I believe it's an Asimov<BR>
> story.  It's written from the point of view of astronauts in an<BR>
> orbiting weapons platform who have the option of counterattcking<BR>
> with nuclear missiles but their president orders them not to,<BR>
> on the premise that humanity might not survive if they did and<BR>
> an attack wouldn't save their homeland.  It turns out in the end<BR>
> that the astronauts are Soviet cosmonauts and the president is<BR>
> the President of the Soviet Union.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. That's the Arthur C. Clarke short story in "The Wind From the<BR>
Sun" that I referred someone else to. The same collection also has that<BR>
atrocious shaggy dog story about the ship that passed too close the a<BR>
neutron star, and the one about the aliens who colonized earth millenia<BR>
ago, but abandoned the colony after a disfiguring disease struck the<BR>
colonists. The punch line on *that* one is "If any of you are still<BR>
white, we can help you..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:44:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Ooh, I like this!  A neutrino-antineutrino beam.  And there is some sort<BR>
>>of relationship between mesons and neutrinos, isn't there? <scratches<BR>
>>head, nope can't remember>  <BR>
><BR>
> Are you thinking of Muons?<BR>
<BR>
Muon is short for "Mu Meson"<BR>
<BR>
> IIRC there are three types of neutrino, one relates to the electron,<BR>
> one to the Tau Muon and one to another Muon.<BR>
<BR>
Electron<BR>
Mu meson<BR>
Tau meson<BR>
<BR>
> (and similarly for the antiparticles of each, of course)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Phil Kitching<BR>
> --<BR>
>   http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
>   Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
>  "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:06:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Guns (was Messoncannons)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> <Anthony Jackson><BR>
> The problem is that a beam of neutrinos and antineutrinos would pass right<BR>
> through each other without interacting significantly.<BR>
> Neutrinos are neutral leptons, and uncharged.<BR>
> </AJ><BR>
><BR>
> But if they are uncharged, then in what sense are there "anti" versions?<BR>
> I thought anti-particles had opposite charge.  Thus, no anti-neutrons. And<BR>
> if they do have charge, wouldn't that cause the opposites to interact? <BR>
<BR>
They are "anti" in that their non-zero value properties are opposite<BR>
(with the exception of things like momentum , which are variable).<BR>
<BR>
The relevant properties of neutrinos and anti-neutrinos are:<BR>
<BR>
spin (one has +1/2, the other -1/2)<BR>
lepton number (one has +1, the other -1)<BR>
<BR>
So when they come together, these properties cancel out. And the result<BR>
is nothing but energy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:46:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Uhmm Doug, my copy of Conway's gives Utah, Oklahoma and Arizona as <BR>
>>being sunk on 7/12/41. But Utah was no longer a battleship by then (she <BR>
>>was converted to a remote controlled target ship in 1931). West Virgina <BR>
>>actually survived until 1959!<BR>
<BR>
Utah had crew aboard. And got hit *heavy* because the mods to make it a<BR>
target ship made a number of Japanese pilots think it was a carrier.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:03:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Nope, one last thing: neutrinos/antineutrinos presumably have opposite<BR>
> charges.  Would this cause them to attract and raise interaction<BR>
> likelihood?  Okay, NOW I'm done...<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, they have the *same* charge. None at all.<BR>
<BR>
Neutrinos/antineutrinos have only three properties:<BR>
spin<BR>
momentum<BR>
lepton number<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:12:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The will to win<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>>They tried to surrender and were refused because American extremists<BR>
>>>demanded vengeance and an unconditional surrender.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Ever read the conditions?  No war crimes trials, no restitutions, they get<BR>
>>to keep what ever they were holding at the end of the war...  <BR>
><BR>
> Are you sure this is correct? If it is, then I certainly don't blame the<BR>
> Americans for chosing to use A-bombs over an invasion. However, I've been<BR>
> told that at the end the only condition the Japanese held out for was that<BR>
> the Emperor should be guaranteed immunity. If this is the case, then I do<BR>
> consider it criminal to kill hundreds of thousands in order to be able to<BR>
> punish one war criminal (_Especially_ in the light of the fact that in the<BR>
> end they chose not to punish the Emperor).<BR>
<BR>
The "unconditional surrender" bit had been set as unchangeable policy<BR>
*long* before. And the intent was to leave *no* question in the mind of<BR>
anyone in Japan that that were *utterly* defeated. No wiggle room, no<BR>
way to "save face".<BR>
<BR>
And please note that without the nukes, the Japanese would *not* have<BR>
been so utterly shocked as to offer those terms. It gave the peace<BR>
faction a counter to the "we'll fight them to the last man" people in<BR>
the war faction.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, they didn't offer the "all we ask is to keep the Emperor"<BR>
until *after* Nagasaki. I think the other terms mentioned before were<BR>
what was offered after *Hiroshima*, and at that they were not<BR>
*official* at the time, just feelers from the peace faction.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:20:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (with some OT Constitutional content)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>I should think a requirement for client-status would be the abolition<BR>
>>of slavery.<BR>
><BR>
> Necessarily, unless the form of the slavery is other than chattel<BR>
> slavery (or can easily be converted to other than chattel<BR>
> slavery).  The Warrant specifically says that chattel slavery is<BR>
> a no-no.  It does not say anything about debt slavery, indenture,<BR>
> peonage, or any other arrangement that is slavery without<BR>
> considering the slaves to be chattels.<BR>
<BR>
I've run into an interesting article (apparently well researched) on<BR>
Roman Slavery in a magazine. Of course, you may hesitate to pick it up,<BR>
since the magazine is BDSM oriented. But the article doesn't get into<BR>
that very much (mostly it pokes holes in a lot of stereotypes). Nor<BR>
does the magazine go in for gratuitous nudity/eye-candy. <BR>
<BR>
The article is way too long to copy here even if I did feel like<BR>
violating copyright. The magazine (SandMUtopiaN Guardian) has a web<BR>
site, and you can probably get back issues there. You'll want issue<BR>
#37.<BR>
<BR>
But the article does give some interesting insights into a very<BR>
different culture. In fact, I'm not sure whether the Imperium would<BR>
consider Roman style slavery to be "chattel slavery". There were a<BR>
*lot* of limits. On the other hand there were a lot of things that<BR>
*weren't* limited too. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:03:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, just one thing: Fire storms were not rare at all in Germany<BR>
> diuring the second half of WWII, from what my grandmothers told me. Or<BR>
> the history books. Most cities were *literally* large charred areas, not<BR>
> cities any more.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but "firestorm" has a specific meaning, and they only occured a<BR>
few times. Firestorms are *huge* conflagrations that get large enough<BR>
and intense enough to generate their own wind. Once that happens you<BR>
don't get "charred" areas. You get nothing but fine ash, and there is<BR>
*nothing* combustible left. And most glas and stone are melted into slag.<BR>
<BR>
Over here we *occasionally* get a firestorm during large forest fires.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:04:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
> > I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if<BR>
> > the GT and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For<BR>
> > example, there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a<BR>
> > population of millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas,<BR>
> > but in the billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we<BR>
> > believe?<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmmm ... S3 is circa 1105, BtC is circa 1116 ...<BR>
> <BR>
> (a)  At some point between 1105 and 1116 there was a global  orgy<BR>
>      without birth control.  This has resulted in a sizeable baby<BR>
>      boom? <BR>
<BR>
So every woman had about 1,000 children each? Gee, I'm glad<BR>
I don't have to hear THEIR labor stories... (Damn, those fertility<BR>
drugs are powerful!)<BR>
> <BR>
> (b)  I've always taken  S3  (and  similar  sources)  to  be  IISS<BR>
>      records and open to error.  IIRC there was  an  introductory<BR>
>      adventure (Adventure 0)  which  was  based  around  a  group<BR>
>      resurveying worlds in the Spinward Marches to help clear  up<BR>
>      errors and ommissions  from  IGS-2.  Thus  S3  is  in  error<BR>
>      (something which can sometimes trip up the complacant PC).<BR>
<BR>
A thousand-fold error!?! Yikes!<BR>
<BR>
"We used to think the US had a population of 250 million. We now<BR>
realize it was only 250,000. It turns out that everyone in the US<BR>
lives in New Haven, Connecticut. We apologize for the error, sir."<BR>
<BR>
Although it does lead one to wonder... How the hell does the IISS<BR>
determine world population anyway? My guess was that each world<BR>
conducted its own census and reported its results to the IISS,<BR>
but that may be a bit too sensible to be true...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:24:26 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Well if Meson decay is on the order of the stronger interactive nuclear<BR>
bonding force, then it is not the best 'weapon' that can be had.  Something<BR>
utilizing the weaker interative bonding force would be much better.<BR>
What would this be?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:31 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Physicists. Physicians are medical doctors.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> And the problem with this is that anything that would let them do<BR>
> >> *that* would also allow doing a lot of other things that we don't see<BR>
> >> happening.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > You mean like...controlling the rate of radioactive decay in radioactive<BR>
> > elements? ;)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Based on the existence of nuclear dampers, particle decay probably can<BR>
be<BR>
> > influenced in some obscure manner.<BR>
><BR>
> Alas, as noted elsewhere, nuclear dampers affect the *weak* nuclear<BR>
> force. If I remember correctly, meson decay involves the *strong*<BR>
> nuclear force.<BR>
><BR>
> The two forces are about as related as electromagnetism is to the weak<BR>
> force. That is, there's a relationship, and at sufficiently high<BR>
> energies, the forces become the same. But controlling one doesn't get<BR>
> you very far controlling the other.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:21:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net><BR>
Subject: GRIP -  First Impressions<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rpgrealms.com/<BR>
<BR>
I've just examined the GIRP website and thought I would share my<BR>
impressions. I should make plain that I have nothing to do with the website<BR>
or the company. My interest is in seeing this work so that I can play!<BR>
    GRIP "Generic Roleplaying for Internet Players" is designed to<BR>
accomadate any role playing system and seems able to do just that. It<BR>
consists of 2 different software modules - a player module and a GMs<BR>
module - which, when connected via its built in IRC based interface allows a<BR>
GM and up to 8 players to play - in real time - any game that they have the<BR>
rules for.<BR>
The player side software is a free download and the GMs module comes in a<BR>
number of different editions ranging in price from $35 to $55.<BR>
    This seems like a heck of a good idea to me and I hope it works. I have<BR>
not played Traveller for over 3 years now (people found jobs, got married,<BR>
discovered real life, etc.) and this looks like an excellent way to get back<BR>
into the game.<BR>
I think its worth the time to check out.  :)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rpgrealms.com/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Pronto<BR>
AKA  - Brian Taylor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:15:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Alas, as noted elsewhere, nuclear dampers affect the *weak* nuclear<BR>
> force. If I remember correctly, meson decay involves the *strong*<BR>
> nuclear force. <BR>
<BR>
Hm...they do?  I seem to recall them modifying the strong force.  In fact, they have to modify the strong force, since many of the interactions they modify (such as fusion) don't involve the weak force.  In any case, the behavior of nuclear dampers as written violates conservation of energy (a nuclear damper strengthens or weakens nuclear forces, which will reduce or increase the rest mass of nuclei within the area.  It will also make some normally stable elements radioactive).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:17:04 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: [OT} RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>As to the issue of signal-to-noise ratio: 80% of the problem  are<BR>
>the responses to abusive posts, not the abusive posts themselves.<BR>
><BR>
>Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... As a long time internet surfer in one form or another I can <BR>
say this about off topic discussions and flame wars.<BR>
<BR>
Of the many different lists I have been on there have always been <BR>
flame wars. Usually devolving to a point where it's nothing more than <BR>
immature name calling.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't posted much to this list because I have had very little to <BR>
say. I read most of the posts and end up discarding those that I find <BR>
inane or trivial.<BR>
<BR>
Flame wars and off topic posts are inevitable in any discussion <BR>
forum. What makes them worse is when we lower ourselves to responding <BR>
to them. (seems I may be doing that now ;-{P  ) Simple rule of <BR>
thumb...If it offends you...Discard it.<BR>
It's people who continually try to get the last word in edgewise that <BR>
keep flame wars going.<BR>
<BR>
I don't mean to sound cliche' but... (As my mother used to say) "If <BR>
you haven't got anything good to say... shut the hell up" (mom) ;)<BR>
<BR>
Off topic discussions are also a part of any discussion forum. We can <BR>
either choose to be a part of them, discard them, or become annoyed <BR>
that our topic of discussion is not the center of attention. My <BR>
preference is for either of the first two. If I don't want to read a <BR>
particular threat I simply don't read it.<BR>
<BR>
Trying to enforce rules in a situation like we have here is mostly <BR>
absurd. People are always going to try and circumvent them.<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest this.<BR>
<BR>
If you have an off topic discussion label it as such in the Subject line.<BR>
(I've seen this occurring here but not regularly)<BR>
<BR>
If you encounter a flame, ignore it. It will go away a lot faster if <BR>
you simply disregard and discard it.<BR>
<BR>
As far as banning people from the list... Those people who have <BR>
nothing to say but personal attacks are mostly trying to gain some <BR>
sort of attention. If you give it to them, they will continue their <BR>
course of activity simply to get a rise out of you. Again... If you <BR>
disregard them and discard these posts they will soon learn that they <BR>
aren't getting that which they most desire...Attention.<BR>
<BR>
Okay... I'm sure that all of you have heard this before and perhaps <BR>
some of you are saying to yourselves..."Duuuuh... No sh** <BR>
Sherlock!...What a lame post"<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps... But I'm not all stressed out about the flame wars or off <BR>
topic discussions either. I am concerned that there is a discussion <BR>
about limiting what people can post in this forum.<BR>
<BR>
And Peter... Sorry to add to the SNR<BR>
<BR>
Bill<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:19:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Are you thinking of Muons?<BR>
> <BR>
> Muon is short for "Mu Meson"<BR>
<BR>
Which is a misnomer, as Muons and Taons aren't mesons.  They're leptons (as are electrons and neutrinos).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:23:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Talon writes:<BR>
> Are these warbots impervious to EMP?  What about Battle Dress?<BR>
<BR>
Probably yes in both cases.  A thick case of metal (aka armor) around a computer does a pretty decent job of protecting it from EMP, as long as the computer is properly isolated from the armor.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:15:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
<BR>
From: Shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Class Name: Raider X<BR>
<BR>
    Name taken from Macross.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:19:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Rules<BR>
<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com <Irishdoh@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<< But please feel free to continue ones like the Trade Cartel, that was<BR>
intresting. >><BR>
<BR>
    Actually, I plan on it.<BR>
<BR>
>And thats my cr.02 worth.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Same here.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:28:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Re: too many arguments...<BR>
<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Wonderful.<BR>
><BR>
>We have Mesons, Theology, politeness AND WWII arguments all going at the<BR>
same<BR>
>time. The last person to start a useful topic is currently being vilified<BR>
>(for other posts, but still...).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The problem is that Meson Guns are great in a game set in a war.  "Oh my<BR>
god they have a Meson Gun."-type deal.<BR>
    Theology is always something we can use, if the discussion was useful,<BR>
but sadly it started out useful, but now it has become boring.<BR>
    Politeness always has a place, but the thing is that the ones talking<BR>
about politeness have kill-filed me (woohoo), & as such are missing anything<BR>
useful.<BR>
    WWII could have a use, if they were using it as a basis for stragegic<BR>
combat in the 3I.<BR>
    And, my topic on Trade Coastals/Trade Cartels is something I enjoy, but<BR>
well, I am used to being vilified, but you know the funny thing, GC?  The<BR>
same people who are vilifing me, are the same people who are currently<BR>
increasing the TML's noise to signal ratio.  But, they seem to want to blame<BR>
me for all of the ills of the TML, thats fine, they have that right to do.<BR>
Of course, I never see any real discussion of Traveller on this ML, so when<BR>
I do bring up Traveller Topics, I am used to them being largely ignored.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:53:48 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Lunar Institute of Technology<BR>
<BR>
While poking around on the net, I found the following site:<BR>
<BR>
http://metalab.unc.edu/lunar/school/  (yep, I remembered the URL this time!)<BR>
<BR>
It details the Lunar Institute of Technology.  What I found rather <BR>
interesting was their Starship Design Project.  Take a look...<BR>
<BR>
http://metalab.unc.edu/lunar/school/InterStellar/SSD_index.html<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy!<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:57:07 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
>You may not like them, and you definitely disagree with them, but<BR>
>there's *no* escaping the fact that they are based entirely on your<BR>
>faith, twisted as their version may be.<BR>
<BR>
To clear something up: it's not my faith, Leonard. I'm not a Christian.<BR>
Whether or not I disagree with them is not an issue, nor have I said I<BR>
disagree with anybody except those who say that Satanism *is* Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
>Personally, I think anyone who follows a "faith" that essentially<BR>
>requires accepting the entire Bible, plus most of the other stuff<BR>
>Christianity has accumulated over the last two millenia, and then<BR>
>joining the side that is supposed to *lose* has *got* to have more than<BR>
>a few screws loose.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly so, but anybody who says that Christianity "essentially requires<BR>
accepting the entire Bible, plus most of the other stuff Christianity has<BR>
accumulated over the last two millenia" knows little about Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:02:45 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: GT: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
The GT:AR3 Hiver/Droyne/Ancients book has hit the stores.  Looks <BR>
reasonably well put together, on a skim.  Cartography fans will <BR>
be glad to see the Hive Federation regional map of sectors in a <BR>
style similar to the CT Hivers book, as well as what looks like <BR>
a rework of the Droyne/Chirper world location map done in the <BR>
same style from the CT Droyne book.<BR>
<BR>
Small sections on the Ithklur, and I think a couple other Federation<BR>
member races.  Some material on the Gurvin language the member races<BR>
use as a lingua franca.  Traveller picks up a (probably Ancient-made)<BR>
partial sphereworld in Nooq sector as home for one of the featured<BR>
minor races.  Lots of new and rereleased material.  <BR>
<BR>
Artwork fans will be scared by the Droyne group-shot in the section<BR>
on "Droyne relations with Humans"....<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:54:37 +0200<BR>
From: Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling <kgorling@physik.tu-berlin.de><BR>
Subject: Regeina, Sector Capital?<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps we have different GT:BTC, but in my, Regina is Subsector<BR>
Capital of the Subsector Regina and Mora is still the capital of<BR>
the domain.<BR>
<BR>
BTW: is the duchess Delphine a dolphin, or is it just a name?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
I'm just a happy chicken from a backwood asteroid.<BR>
gaack...<BR>
ICQ UIN 55009348<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:10:12 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 21 May 2000 12:37:51 -0700, "Legate Legion"<BR>
<legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    And, do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?  Because<BR>
>god doesn't trust the English in the Dark.<BR>
<BR>
 And having watched too much BlackAdder, I might even agree with Him on this <BR>
one...<BR>
<BR>
 ...or maybe that's just Rowen Atkinson (sp?) I wouldn't trust in the dark...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2509<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:13:00 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:12:38 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA32118;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 13:11:22 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 13:11:06 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA32069<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:11:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:11:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005261711.NAA32069@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2509<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2510</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 12:35:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2510<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
VBasic Character Generator<BR>
RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
RE: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
re: VBasic Character Generator  <BR>
Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
RE:The nature of war in the imperium<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:15:19 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: VBasic Character Generator<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith writes:<BR>
>I just finished a college-level Visual Basic class.  <BR>
>The class requirements included an independent programming<BR>
>project, which ended up taking quite a bit of time.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>It's a Classic Traveller character generator for Book 1.<BR>
>My professor had never heard of RPG's before, but she<BR>
>loved it...and gave me an "A".<BR>
>Thank you Traveller!!  <G><BR>
<BR>
	Are you going to share?<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:19:36 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Matt Stevens [mailto:mfs10@columbia.edu]<BR>
<BR>
> Although it does lead one to wonder... How the hell does the IISS<BR>
> determine world population anyway? My guess was that each world<BR>
> conducted its own census and reported its results to the IISS,<BR>
> but that may be a bit too sensible to be true...<BR>
<BR>
But, then again, it may be the explanation we're looking for.  Imagine the planetary government separated its inhabitants into two (or more classes) - some (say 10%) considered 'citizens' and the rest not.  The gov't reports the census data as xxx,xxx number of 'citizens' and some Scout unfamiliar with the planet interprets it to mean xxx,xxx number of inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
Later, another Scout familiar with the planet looks through the data, sees the error, and updates the UWP.  Presto - instant 10x increase in the population.<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:23:03 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
> <BR>
> Try making a fission bomb with an *obscene* yield as *all* <BR>
> the atoms in<BR>
> it fission at the same time. Without any explosives. <BR>
<BR>
Just the thing for those man-portable battlefield nukes.  Really big yield from a very sub-critical mass.<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:42:39 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: VBasic Character Generator  <BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>  Are you going to share? <BR>
><BR>
>:) <BR>
>Peez <BR>
<BR>
Geez, it's kind of embarrassing to look at.  Stat increases<BR>
didn't work (I *knew* I should have kept them in a global<BR>
array, instead of have the primary version be in a form<BR>
based text box), it sometimes drops auto and career-related<BR>
skills (not sure why, probably because I use a different<BR>
AddSkills procedure for each), the changes to "house rules"<BR>
(survival vs wounds, reenlistment checks) don't always save,<BR>
every roll on the Cash Benefits table grants a nice round<BR>
Cr10000 (an overflow error when the table is rolled on)...it<BR>
doesn't even do Cascade Skills or Aging Rolls!!<BR>
<BR>
I've got an idea of what needs to go into version 2, but there<BR>
seem to be other alternatives out there already for chargen...<BR>
now that I have some programming experience, I want to try something<BR>
that hasn't been done before.<BR>
<BR>
I just felt so good getting an "A" that I had to share...if someone<BR>
wants to chuckle at my code (Visual Basic 6.0), let me know and<BR>
I'll email a copy.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:49:39 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
<BR>
A small number of alternative (not commonly used) technologies are<BR>
presented in FF&S2. Most of them are drive systems (solar sails, exotic<BR>
rockets, etc).<BR>
<BR>
What other technologies are feasible, interesting, published in other SF<BR>
sources, and/or possible?<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to make a list of different oddball technologies that might<BR>
be used by aliens (or humaniti cultures), but the current material won't<BR>
take me very far.<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions and/or ideas?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:56:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Hello!<BR>
<BR>
I was asked by Christopher Thrash to come aboard and let you folks know about our new GRIP: The Traveller Edition product, and field any questions you might have. <BR>
<BR>
The first questions seems to be 'who are these guys Hunter Gordon, John Hemmert, and Bruce Runnels?'. In short, long time (20+ year) Traveller fans who used to play Traveller together many moons ago, but like many grew up and apart over the years. When I decided to develop GRIP last year, the first game I thought of was Traveller, and the first people I thought to bring on board were my old Traveller compadres. Now after a 15-someodd year hiatus, we are back playing the game we love again!<BR>
<BR>
What is GRIP? GRIP (Generic Role-playing for Internet Players) is a set of software tools that lets you play ANY traditional paper and pencil RPG over the Internet or a LAN, with a Game Master and up to 8 players. The main tools are the iGM (Game Master) Module, and the iPC (Player) Module. The iGM Module is a small personal game server that runs on your own computer, allowing you to design, organize, and run your online adventures. The iPC Module is the player client that allows user to connect and join in games hosted by GM's using the iGM Module.<BR>
<BR>
How does Traveller fit into all of this? When I started developing GRIP, the first license we went for is of course our personal favorite, Traveller! With the Traveller license we are developing specific Traveller related tools for use with GRIP such as a Character Generator (all books), a Sector/World builder, Library Data system, and more. These will be included in a special GRIP: The Traveller Edition box set due to be released next month, along with 2 Classic Traveller Adventure reprints in GRIP Adventure format, The Kinunir, and Research Station Gamma. We have also commisioned a new Traveller poster by David Deitrick (who did the original Vargr poster, and tons of other Traveller artwork), and will be re-releasing all of the original adventures over the coming months in GRIP Adventure format (along with new adventures and accessories).<BR>
<BR>
Well, I don't want to waste any more of the List's users' bandwidth so I'll cut this short. If anyone has any questions, comments, or suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them. You can either ask via this list, or you can email mail us directly at trav@RPGRealms.com. Be sure to stop by the website also for more info on GRIP itself, along with a list of scheduled games and more.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
GRIP:<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:04:07 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
> <BR>
> Why do you say that Doug?<BR>
> <BR>
> It seems to me that given the significantly higher productivity<BR>
> of the US that it could have defeated Japan fairly handily<BR>
> without Magic (even while spending most of its resources<BR>
> in Europe). I am sure that casualties would have been<BR>
> higher without Magic but Japan simply did not have the<BR>
> resources for a prolonged war. The US could have survived<BR>
> having its ships, planes, and soldiers blown up for longer<BR>
> than the Japanese could have. Moreover the US would have been<BR>
> well fed during all this while the Japanese would not.<BR>
<BR>
Without Magic, our carriers would have been caught at Midway and sunk.<BR>
or headed off to the Aleutians on a wild goose chase.<BR>
<BR>
It was a Magic intercept of the Japanese taking our misinformation about<BR>
Midway being short of water that confirmed for Halsey that Midway was<BR>
the target and the Aleutians were a feint.<BR>
<BR>
More importantly, the Japanese fleet would have remained mostly intact.<BR>
<BR>
At that point, Japan would have been able to pressure the US for a<BR>
negotiated peace, they may have been able to do it, too, because at that<BR>
point, the Pacific became their wading pool, and the Us was facing a war<BR>
in the Europe. <BR>
<BR>
They could have come back and done a better job on Pearl, at which point<BR>
the US would have had to run a pacific campaign out of the West Coast of<BR>
the US, rather long supply lines.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the Japanese would have secured all the oil reserves of the Dutch<BR>
East Indes without any significant resistance from anyone(one oftheir<BR>
primary objectives in the Pacific). They could hav also pushed east<BR>
towards the Middle East. Had they been able to suppor the Germans there,<BR>
the course of the european woar would have been quite<BR>
different...Germany DESPERATELY needed that oil.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:07:02 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
From "Physics for everybody," 11th edition, Shiwonee (Massilia), <BR>
1112.<BR>
<BR>
Meson Guns projects a stream of mesons in the eleven-dimensional <BR>
realspace from which the sophont-perceived four-dimensional <BR>
one is a projection.<BR>
<BR>
By using the additional pseudo-temporal dimensions, a meson gun is <BR>
able to deform spacetime ad the subnuclear level in such a way that <BR>
the time interval in which a percentage over 99% of the mesons of the <BR>
stream will decay is compressed, relatively speaking, and in this <BR>
relative time interval the meson stream traverses only an extremely <BR>
small three-dimensional linear region.<BR>
<BR>
In practical terms, from the point of view of an external observer, <BR>
almost all the mesons decay almost simultaneously in an almost <BR>
punctual region of space, causing a pseudoexplosion which comes as <BR>
much from the actual effects of decaying mesons as from dimensional <BR>
readjustment. <BR>
<BR>
It has been speculated that meson guns could, with a very low <BR>
probability, have rather weird effects on their targets instead of <BR>
simply destroying them, ranging from time displacements to <BR>
dimensional pseudoprojection and parapsionic waves. No actual <BR>
instance of these potential phenomena has been reliably reported so <BR>
far.<BR>
<BR>
Meson Gun technology, thought impossible for a very long <BR>
time, is only possible because of an inherently probabilistic <BR>
approach and its destructive intention: no stable, predictable <BR>
dimensional readjustment aroudn the target is feasible once the meson <BR>
stream has been fired. Although this is still not proven, current <BR>
scientific theories agree that a totally controlled use of the <BR>
technology is impossible. According to some scientists, such a use <BR>
would in principle make possible relativistic time-freeze bubbles, <BR>
jumpspace portals, and other science-fiction gadgets. These <BR>
scientists have remarked the analogy with fusion technology, since <BR>
fusion bombs are usually developed much earlier than controlled <BR>
fusion plants<BR>
....<BR>
<BR>
<as good a handwave as any other one><BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772<BR>
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:20:32 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Satanists believe in Christ, and Y-hw-h (or in the Trinity, depending on<BR>
>which version they follow). And they believe in Satan. They just have<BR>
>their positions swapped.<BR>
><BR>
>Satanism is Christianity as viwed thru a funhouse mirror.<BR>
<BR>
Please get my position correct before going on. I'm not saying, nor have I<BR>
*ever* said that Satanism, in any imaginable form, would lack the various<BR>
elements which appear in the narratives of Christianity or Judaism. You're<BR>
not saying anything which I would disagree with here.<BR>
<BR>
>True enough. But Satanist *accept* Christian doctrine. They merely<BR>
>choose to follow Satan rather than God. That's the *only* difference.<BR>
<BR>
Let's not get into "doctrine" here, which requires a formal hierarchy.<BR>
Doctrine and heterodoxy cannot exist without a formal hierarchy. Let's stick<BR>
to the basics. Do Satanists believe in Jesus Christ? Maybe. Lots of people,<BR>
from atheist archeologists to paranoid schizophrenics believe that Jesus<BR>
Christ exists. Does this make them Christians? No. Do Satanists believe in<BR>
the saving grace of Christ? I find it difficult to believe that one who<BR>
believed in the saving grace of Christ could believe in the primacy of<BR>
Satan.<BR>
<BR>
>What makes you think Satanists *don't* believe in that?<BR>
<BR>
On one hand, I've known two self-identified Satanists who seemed to be in it<BR>
for more than the "bored kid" reasons offered by others, but more<BR>
importantly because Satanism, in any feasible form, would require a<BR>
rejection of such notions...<BR>
<BR>
>Their religion is based on *rejecting* it, and accepting Satan *instead*.<BR>
<BR>
...which is precisely as you point out. Rejection is a refusal of<BR>
acceptance.<BR>
<BR>
>Check out any Satanist stuff you can find that isn't *complete* ripoff<BR>
>publishing. All the rituals and doctrine are based on<BR>
>rejecting/reversing Christian rituals and doctrine.<BR>
<BR>
I've checked out enough to have a good working understanding of it. I'm<BR>
starting to think that some others haven't.<BR>
<BR>
>One must *accept Christian Scriptures and doctrine as true* to be a<BR>
>Satanist.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, one doesn't have to accept Christian scriptures as true to be<BR>
a Christian. See David Strauss "The Life of Jesus", and Rudolf Bultmann<BR>
"Kerygma and Myth". Alternately, for even a strictly Catholic perspective,<BR>
talk to any Jesuit (as they tend to have more of a grounding in theology<BR>
than other Catholic orders). Similarly, there is no real body of "Christian"<BR>
doctrine anymore, though individual Christian sects may have their own.<BR>
<BR>
>It's not even necessary to believe Satan is supreme.<BR>
<BR>
I know that, which is why I consciously avoided saying that Satanists<BR>
believe in the supremacy of Satan.<BR>
<BR>
>Merely that he can do things for you. There *are* scriptural references<BR>
which<BR>
>support this. As well as ones that have been argued as proving that<BR>
>Satan has dominion over Earth.<BR>
<BR>
There are scriptural references that support a lot of things, none of which<BR>
have any bearing whatsoever on this discussion. The question isn't whether<BR>
or not Satanists would use the same tools (which I have never disagreed<BR>
with) but whether they would use them the same way, or to the same end. An<BR>
electrician and a mechanic both may use the same screwdriver without the<BR>
electrician becoming a mechanic or the mechanic becoming an electrician.<BR>
<BR>
>Christianity covers a *lot* more ground than you seem to realize.<BR>
<BR>
No it doesn't. I certainly realize how much ground Christianity covers.<BR>
<BR>
>Check out things like Manicheanism, and the dualist sects that sprang up.<BR>
>Sure those are *mostly* considered heresies now. But they existed as<BR>
>*part* of Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, they are still Christian under my definition, which is the<BR>
widest possible definition of Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
>Don't confuse "mainstream Christianity" with "a Christian religion".<BR>
<BR>
I'm not. Indeed, I consciously used the *widest possible* definition of<BR>
Christianity, which would include a very large number of the various<BR>
Christian cults which appeared in the earliest days of Christianity, as well<BR>
as many of the heterodox cults which popped up from the fall of the Roman<BR>
Empire on. It would certainly include the major, though not mainstream,<BR>
Christian groups, such as Arianism and Manicheanism, as well as all of the<BR>
minor players which I can think of at the moment.<BR>
<BR>
The baseline which I used was broad for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
>If it accepts the Bible, Christ, and most of the theological doctrine<BR>
>that's evolved from them over the centuries, it's Christian.<BR>
<BR>
"Accepting" the Bible is not required for Christianity. "Accepting" is in<BR>
quotes because I'm not sure what this means in this context. There were any<BR>
number of Christian groups which existed before the Christian version of the<BR>
Bible was ever codified and seen as a unified body of work. Accepting Christ<BR>
is not required for Christianity. Accepting that Christ serves to point the<BR>
way to salvation, in one form or another, is. Nobody... let me repeat that,<BR>
bigger and emphasized, *NOBODY* who would be considered a Christian accepts<BR>
"most of the theological doctrine that's evolved... over the centuries". So<BR>
ultimately, this last requirement doesn't exist.<BR>
<BR>
>Christianity *was* a "Jewish sect" until it was a lot older than<BR>
>Satanism is.<BR>
<BR>
This is certainly debatable. The Romans called the various early Christian<BR>
cults Jewish sects. Then again, about the time that the Romans, there was<BR>
some confusion as to exactly what Christians were. The various Christian<BR>
cults, by all accounts, saw themselves as distinct from Judaism in many<BR>
ways. They were different mythologically, the Messiah had already come to<BR>
light the way. They were different intellectually: there were extremely<BR>
strong Greek influences which seem to have been incompatible with Judaism.<BR>
They were different in practice as well, perhaps most strikingly they<BR>
rejected a cartload of Jewish practices and observances.<BR>
<BR>
Is Christianity descended from Judaism? Of course. Does this make<BR>
Christianity Judaism? No.<BR>
<BR>
>The observances aren't "different" in most meaningful ways.<BR>
>Instead they are *inversions* of Christian practice. The best known example<BR>
is<BR>
>that whole bit of saying the Lord's Prayer backwards.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... The Lord's Prayer is seen by Christians as being the one single bit<BR>
of Christian ritual which is handed down from Christ himself. To say it is<BR>
to re-affirm a belief in the God the "father", whatever that figure may mean<BR>
to individual Christian groups. To say it backwards is an intended inversion<BR>
and completely changes the meaning, and the intent is necessarily different.<BR>
Under any interpretation of how such a thing might work which could be<BR>
offered by a Satanist, I can't see how this observance isn't different in<BR>
the /most/ meaningful way.<BR>
<BR>
>Heck, the whole<BR>
>"Black Mass" doesn't differ much more  from "normal" Christian practice<BR>
>than the masses of some varieties of Christianity do from each other.<BR>
<BR>
So, you're saying that a complete reversal of basic Catholic practices, with<BR>
the intent of perverting the meaning of such a ritual, and intentionally<BR>
mocking the God of Christianity in the worship of the enemy of Christ<BR>
doesn't differ much from the original? Huh? Are we living in the same<BR>
dimension here?<BR>
<BR>
>The whole *thing* is like that. They take the whole thing from<BR>
>Christianity and do a "wrong is right" switch on it.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, if Satanism is seen as an inversion of Christianity, different<BR>
practices are performed to different ends. I don't disagree. Apparently we<BR>
disagree strongly as to whether or not one can consider this similar.<BR>
<BR>
>> any offshoot of Christianity which believed in<BR>
>> the primacy of the "evil principle" would no longer be Christianity.<BR>
><BR>
>Which is where we differ.<BR>
<BR>
<shrug> Which is why I would say that you're wrong.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, as I noted, not all Satanists *do* believe that Satan is supreme.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I know that. I consciously avoided using the word supremacy. Primacy<BR>
was intended to indicate merely that he is to be chosen over God as the<BR>
object of worship.<BR>
<BR>
>Some think he's "equal" to God.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. I wouldn't disagree here.<BR>
<BR>
>Guess what, as I mentioned above, there have been *Christian* sects in the<BR>
>past that believed this. *Major* ones. There were major battles over<BR>
>"God will win!" and "We are here to help make sure God will win!"<BR>
<BR>
Yep. I'm aware of this.<BR>
<BR>
>And others don't believe he's even equal, just that he can do something<BR>
>for them. Remember the tale of "Faust".<BR>
<BR>
I'm aware of this too, which is why I consciously avoided the notion of<BR>
supremacy.<BR>
<BR>
>>Satanic-Wiccan, a Satanic-Buddhist, a Satanic-Shintoist or a<BR>
Satanic-Hindu,<BR>
>> merely that one couldn't be a Satanic-Christian or a Satanic-Jew (and I<BR>
>> would add Satanic-Muslim). My contention from the beginning, and I was<BR>
very<BR>
>> clear about this, was that anybody who could reasonably be called a<BR>
Satanist<BR>
>> could *not* be called a Christian or a Jew. That's all.<BR>
><BR>
>There a difference between "Satanists are Christians" and "Satanism is<BR>
>a Christian sect".<BR>
<BR>
Logically, there isn't. If a Satanism can be said to be a Christian sect,<BR>
then a Satanist could be said to be a Christian, just as a Lutheran or a<BR>
Catholic can be said to be a Christian (or even, in a smaller scope, and<BR>
Augustinian, and Arian, and a Pelagian could all be said to be Christian).<BR>
To say that Satanism would have to descend from a religion in which Satan<BR>
would play a part is obvious, and I've never disagreed with it. To say that<BR>
it is a sect, despite the fact that the use of the term "sect" does imply<BR>
heterodox and schismatic beliefs (which were a big issue when the word first<BR>
made it into the English language), would be incorrect.<BR>
<BR>
And that's pretty much all I can imagine I can say on the subject. I will<BR>
not respond. I've been as clear about my position on this subject as I can<BR>
reasonably imagine given the circumstances. Agree, disagree, but I won't be<BR>
involved past this point.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:31:24 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Jump from Earth orbit to half a<BR>
parsec out, and you've gained potential energy equivalent to a velocity<BR>
of almost 40 km/sec! Solely due to moving that much higher up in Sol's<BR>
gravity well. <<<<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>>>One way to handle this would be to convert the PE into *directed* KE.<BR>
Porting in, he'd get a velocity of 40 km/sec, same as if he'd let<BR>
gravity drag him to the same location (which would take millenia).<BR>
<BR>
>>So porting out, he'd wind up moving away from the star at the same speed.<BR>
<BR>
Now that I think about it, this makes more sense than Niven's idea of<BR>
"PE turns to heat when you port lower".<<<<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Leonard. I thought I had read Niven right, but don't have the math.<BR>
<BR>
Niven says he feels it would end up as heat because the direction of the KE<BR>
would be randomized, and randomized KE=heat.<BR>
<BR>
Also, doesn't the fact that teleportation obeys Conservation of Momentum and<BR>
Energy imply that it is bound by relativity as well (and therefore limited<BR>
to less than lightspeed)? I lack the math and physics to figure that out<BR>
myself.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:33:51 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 26 May 2000, Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
> Although it does lead one to wonder... How the hell does the IISS<BR>
> determine world population anyway? My guess was that each world<BR>
> conducted its own census and reported its results to the IISS,<BR>
> but that may be a bit too sensible to be true...<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  Can you wave a neural activity sensor at a world and get a ballpark<BR>
figure for population?  If so, that's how I'd do it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:36:07 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I think we have two good handwaves here. Would you like to focus on these two and discuss their ramifications?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 08:07 PM,  "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>From "Physics for everybody," 11th edition, Shiwonee (Massilia), <BR>
>1112.<BR>
<BR>
>Meson Guns projects a stream of mesons in the eleven-dimensional <BR>
>realspace from which the sophont-perceived four-dimensional  one is a<BR>
>projection.<BR>
<BR>
<snip of good handwavium><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And Matt Bond wrote...<BR>
<BR>
<snip of also goodhandwavium><BR>
<BR>
>As the Pi 0 meson is its own antiparticle (one of the very few particles<BR>
>with this property) I suppose you could arrange to have *two* Pi 0 meson<BR>
>beams intersect and mutually annihilate into gamma rays and/or<BR>
>positron/electron pairs (which would in turn mutually annihilate into<BR>
>gamma rays) within the target.<BR>
<BR>
>This would require meson guns to have *4* particle accelerators. 2<BR>
>positron and two electron beams. Each opposing pair intersecting to<BR>
>producing a Pi 0 meson beam which in turn intersect to produce gamma<BR>
>rays.<BR>
<BR>
>So to summarise. The mesons are fired at relativistic speed to minimise<BR>
>spontaneous decay, and intersect with another meson beam *inside* the<BR>
>target, whereupon mutual annihilation occurs releasing gamma rays.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I think Matt's model might cause fewer problems with<BR>
OTU, but Carlos' model has a number of interesting gaming<BR>
possibilities.<BR>
<BR>
I'd like to read what our resident tech theory physicians <g> have<BR>
to say about these two approaches.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:56:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>   Essentially correct (IMHO), but if it had been the US carrier <BR>
> force destroyed at Midway (ForEx) then the USN now has to pay _huge_<BR>
> logistical costs to "island-hop" into even the outer perimeter<BR>
> of the Japanese defenses - and those logistical costs will mean<BR>
> much greater times to achieve ends and/or lost battles/campaigns<BR>
> in the process. <BR>
><BR>
>   It might very well have led to either a tremendously long drawn<BR>
> out war or the progressive nuking of each Japanese major naval<BR>
> base in turn as the final advance got under way...<BR>
<BR>
Slight problem. We *couldn't* have nuked each Japanese major naval base<BR>
as went along.<BR>
<BR>
After Nagasaki we had either one more bomb or *no* more bombs, with the<BR>
next one in production being *months* from completion. That's one of<BR>
the reasons that we didn't try the "do a demonstration shot" bit (which<BR>
*was* actually proposed).<BR>
<BR>
It wasn't until the end of 1945 that we had any sort of "stockpile" of<BR>
nukes.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:11:29 EDT<BR>
From: TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE:The nature of war in the imperium<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 03:05:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: The Nature of War in the Imperium? (Long, Long, Long!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Chris,<BR>
I read your LONG post. I liked it.<BR>
Maybe this explains why I have always loved the original Battletech Rules of Warfare.<BR>
<BR>
(Some people will have stopped reading this post at the mention of the name Battletech, having strong feelings about 10m tall walking robot-like tanks that cannot shoot with lasers what our modern tanks can hit while moving...)<BR>
<BR>
The entire concept was quite civilized. The military met on the field of battle, away from civilian targets, and would fight until a clear victory was in sight.<BR>
Warriors would surrender instead of fighting to the death in a clearly losing battle, knowing that they would be treated with respect and have even a chance to ransom equipment lost in battle.<BR>
<BR>
Using the full military might of the war machines on civilian population centers would have the entire sphere (Traveller 3I Sector?) hunting your unit as outlaws and murderers.<BR>
<BR>
While it is romantic, and most realists might be right that many people would not fight this way, it works for me IMTU. 3I Mercenaries work like this to remain in good graces with governments on both sides.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, it is simply more fun.<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
travelerGM@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:09:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
><BR>
>Why do you say that Doug?<BR>
><BR>
>Magic allowed us to anticipate the Midway campaign, and plan a trap.<BR>
>Without the intercepts, we have to spread the fleet across to much<BR>
>territory.  The Japanese probably take Midway, and can begin land based<BR>
>bombing of Oahu.  We lose Hawaii.<BR>
<BR>
As has been noted by others, the USA possessed a greatly superior industrial capacity <BR>
compared to Japan.  Over a long war this capacity would make itself felt and the USA would <BR>
eventually triumph over the Japanese.<BR>
<BR>
However, it could have been a short war.  With the presidential elections in 1944 the <BR>
popular opinion of the people could have forced an end to the war or at least the acceptance of <BR>
a less than complete surrender terms.  If the Japanese had been able to able to obtain more <BR>
victories, even the occupation of Hawaii, and capable defense of their war gains, then a good <BR>
case could be made that the American people of 1944 would want peace (and the return of <BR>
Hawaii).  Magic pretty much prevented this from happening.<BR>
<BR>
The above is also a pretty good example of why the "will to win" is vital.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:31:19 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> >> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> >> >>>Our Jump Commando can pop a single Psi Booster and become<BR>
> >> Psi Str 15. He then Teleports half a Parsec towards the<BR>
> >> other system carrying 12 kilos of equipment (including<BR>
> >> a space suit & air <BR>
<BR>
> > "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com> wrote<BR>
> >> He will also be a block of frozen ice, unless he starts out from about the<BR>
> >> orbit of Pluto, I believe...see Niven's "Theory and Practice of<BR>
> >> Teleportation."<BR>
<BR>
> > If he retains his starting velocity (as is Traveller canon) he <BR>
> > will be racing through space at many kps and will be dead<BR>
> > if he runs into a sub milligram particle but his internal body<BR>
> > temperature will not have changed. It is only converting<BR>
> > momentum to heat that will cook or freeze him. A simple space<BR>
> > to space jump will avoid this.<BR>
> <BR>
> No it won't. You forgot that he's *gained* an enormous amount of<BR>
> potential energy from *somewhere*. Jump from Earth orbit to half a<BR>
> parsec out, and you've gained potential energy equivalent to a velocity<BR>
> of almost 40 km/sec! Solely due to moving that much higher up in Sol's<BR>
> gravity well. <BR>
<BR>
You are correct according to the rules as written which<BR>
state "Changes in altitude (actually all movement to locations<BR>
of differing gravitational potential) will result in potential<BR>
energy changes manifesting themselves as changes in body temperature."<BR>
[MT PM p 100]<BR>
<BR>
I misunderstood the generality of the rules and thought it was<BR>
only on planets that potential energy became heat energy.<BR>
<BR>
> Jump in the opposite direction and you *lose* that much potential<BR>
> energy. Which, if it appeared as heat would vaporize you. <BR>
> <BR>
> One way to handle this would be to convert the PE into *directed* KE.<BR>
> Porting in, he'd get a velocity of 40 km/sec, same as if he'd let<BR>
> gravity drag him to the same location (which would take millenia). <BR>
<BR>
> So porting out, he'd wind up moving away from the star at the same speed.<BR>
> Now that I think about it, this makes more sense than Niven's idea of<BR>
> "PE turns to heat when you port lower".<BR>
<BR>
Yes it does but "PE turns to heat when you port lower" is Traveller<BR>
canon.<BR>
<BR>
For a good example of Teleportation where objects potential<BR>
energy is converted to velocity see Vernor Vinge's 'The Witling'.<BR>
On this planet ordinary citizens can Teleport themselves a<BR>
only a few Km because of velocity changes or they can teleport<BR>
themselves to a spot in the opposite hemisphere with the same<BR>
potential energy (from 45 North to 45 south for instance). Trained<BR>
soldiers can teleport in pebbles from thousands of klicks away<BR>
like bullets. The most talented Teleporters (400 out of many millions)<BR>
can teleport in multiple ton pieces of one of the planets moons<BR>
with multiple kilo ton forces.<BR>
<BR>
Energy becomes heat is probably better for game balance than<BR>
energy becomes speed. If energy becomes speed than kamikaze<BR>
Zhodani teleporters could damage Imperial capital ships by<BR>
teleporting onto them off of Zhodani ships traveling at high<BR>
enough speed.<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani fleet jumps in at 300 kps. 100 kilo Zhodani teleporter<BR>
teleports to the bridge of Imperial Tigress. Tigress is hit by<BR>
the internal equivalent of a one kiloton nuke [1]. Of course given<BR>
an well armored ship this may be survivable.<BR>
 <BR>
[1] Calculation uses the rule of thumb that the kinetic energy <BR>
of an object traveling at 3 kps = an equal mass of TNT <BR>
(300/3) ^ 2 x 0.1 ton (100 kilos mass) = 1,000 tons equivalent.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2510<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 15:35:14 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 15:34:37 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA38479;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 15:32:01 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 15:31:49 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA38437<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 15:31:49 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:31:49 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005261931.PAA38437@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2510<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2511</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 2:04:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2511<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
TNE<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: TNE<BR>
Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
Re: Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
Re: [OT} RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
RE: Unusual Battlefield Communications <BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:38:49 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 01:56 PM,  "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hello!<BR>
<BR>
Hello and welcome.<BR>
<BR>
>I was asked by Christopher Thrash to come aboard and let you folks know<BR>
>about our new GRIP: The Traveller Edition product, and field any<BR>
>questions you might have. <BR>
<BR>
Good, and please don't let our fractious nature bother you too much.<BR>
I do have several questions I hope you can help me with.<BR>
<BR>
>The first questions seems to be 'who are these guys Hunter Gordon, John<BR>
>Hemmert, and Bruce Runnels?'. In short, long time (20+ year) Traveller<BR>
>fans who used to play Traveller together many moons ago, but like many<BR>
>grew up and apart over the years. When I decided to develop GRIP last<BR>
>year, the first game I thought of was Traveller, and the first people I<BR>
>thought to bring on board were my old Traveller compadres. Now after a<BR>
>15-someodd year hiatus, we are back playing the game we love again!<BR>
<BR>
Well, welcome *back* then.  <g> I think a lot of us had similar<BR>
experiences.  <BR>
<BR>
Question 1:  What does it take to run iGM and iPC?  <BR>
<BR>
    a.  Ram/HD space?<BR>
    <BR>
    b.  Bandwidth -- how does it work on 33/56k dial ups?<BR>
    <BR>
    c.  OS -- Win 95/98?  Mac?  Linux/Unix? Java based?<BR>
    <BR>
    d.  Future ports planned?<BR>
    <BR>
    e.  Does the game go through a particular server, like on your<BR>
        site, say?<BR>
<BR>
Question 2:  Is GM + 8 a hard limit?  <BR>
<BR>
    (I ask because I'm the Ref that can't seem say no, and have more<BR>
    than 8 players in both the Trav games I run online.)<BR>
<BR>
Question 3:  Character Generation, you say all books?<BR>
<BR>
    a.  Does that mean all Classic Traveller Books (1-8 & Supps)<BR>
        (CT)?<BR>
<BR>
    b.  Does that mean MegaTraveller (MT)?<BR>
    <BR>
    c.  What about Traveller: New Era rules (TNE)?<BR>
    <BR>
    d.  Mark Miller's Traveller (T4)?<BR>
    <BR>
(I think the GM could tailor the character gen for *any* of the<BR>
above with iGM, but what comes "out of the box" already done?)<BR>
<BR>
Question 4:  World/System Generation?<BR>
<BR>
    a.  How complete, what rules?<BR>
    <BR>
    b.  Mainworld or complete system?<BR>
    <BR>
    c.  Have you looked at either "Heaven & Earth" or "Galactic<BR>
        2.4"? <BR>
        <BR>
    d.  And in relation to c, is there an import facility to bring<BR>
        system/world details in from other programs?<BR>
        <BR>
Question 5:  I saw the mapping utility on your web site, but it is<BR>
             aimed at dungeon crawls.  Do you have predefined tiles<BR>
             for ship deckplans, Trav's version of a crawl ;-)?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Question 6:  How much of the Official Traveller Universe (OTU)<BR>
             database is available in the box, planned to be added,<BR>
             and how user-extendable is it?  <BR>
             <BR>
Question 7:  Is ship to ship combat addressed, and if so how?<BR>
<BR>
Question 8:  I doubt you address this, but I think I should ask.<BR>
             Are design sequences for equipment, weapons, vehicles<BR>
             and ships included?<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I'll stop now and let you answer. <g>  <BR>
<BR>
Thanks for coming on the list.<BR>
<BR>
I left your contact info for list member reference...<BR>
<BR>
>Hunter Gordon<BR>
>QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
>GRIP:<BR>
>http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
>GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
>http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    Traveller Heretic<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:59:12 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
On 05/25/00 at 07:03 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than  just<BR>
>the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do <BR>
>mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
<BR>
You know how I feel about heresy. ;-p<BR>
<BR>
I have the GM book for 7th Sea, and it is interesting. The gameworld (from the map anyway) doesn't look like it would work as well as the *real* Baltic region for something like this.  Doesn't have to follow RW, of course, but...well grab a map of the Baltic....and think about it.  Small city states scattered along the south and eastern shores tenously connected by roads through dark forests and by sea routes that are haunted by Viking raiders sweeping down from the northern shore, expeditions down the mysterious rivers into dangerous territories in the interior, add the assorted sea monster, river siren, and low powered mage and you have a really cool setting. <g><BR>
<BR>
Dang!  I've got to stop or I'll talk myself into another game. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    heresy is your friend!<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:02:57 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
At 11:17 AM -0400 5/26/00, Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
>I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if the GT<BR>
>and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For example,<BR>
>there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a population of<BR>
>millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas, but in the<BR>
>billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we believe?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There a few worlds in BTC were there was a an error in converting<BR>
the pop.  My suggestion is that you check the errata...<BR>
http://www.sjgames.com/errata/gurps/traveller-behind-the-claw.html<BR>
<BR>
If it isn't there, you could submit it...<BR>
<BR>
(As others have pointed out.  The status of Regina and Mora<BR>
are a result of advancing the timeline....)<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:02:32 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 12:05 AM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
>...<BR>
>>Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than <BR>
>>just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do <BR>
>>mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and I forgot to add....How about a setting book?  GRUPS is *good* at settings books! <g>  GURPS Hanseatic League, or GURPS Baltic?  <BR>
<BR>
>  IIRC, it's written by someone with what might be described as, uhm,<BR>
>"interesting" ideas about conspiracies targetting his computers? <BR>
<BR>
I read about that, but let's not start that thread in here, okay? <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    I promise to get back to Traveller now...<g><BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:07:45 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: TNE<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone give me a brief discription of what effects generating the TNE<BR>
Calapse effects on a sector are?  I have never actualy read the TNE rules?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:23:40 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 11:17 AM,  "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Loren has kept silent on the subject, but until he says anything to the<BR>
>> contrary, I'm going to believe that the history of the GT universe is<BR>
>> identical to the history of the OT universe up until some point in 1116<BR>
>> and that all changes in the GT history flows from a single divergence<BR>
>> point (For one thing, that would be so much more elegant than multiple<BR>
>> differences, and for another, it is a classic tradition of alternate<BR>
>> world fiction). As such, all CT and T4 material and all historical<BR>
>> information in MT and TNE material is, IMO, part of the GT canon.<BR>
<BR>
>I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if the GT and<BR>
>GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For example, there's a world<BR>
>in the Spinward Marches that has a population of millions in Supplement 3<BR>
>and the Imperial Atlas, but in the<BR>
>billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we believe?<BR>
<BR>
Eris, the heretic, shakes his head in dismay and says, "Why,<BR>
whichever one *you* want to believe!  Of course!!!"<BR>
<BR>
You can also consider either source to be in error...in-game error.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe the Imperial Survey got the population number wrong and it was<BR>
never corrected.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe the population grew or shrank for some reason (warning<BR>
imagination required ;-).<BR>
<BR>
Maybe one source refers to pop on Mainworld and the other refers to<BR>
pop in the whole system.<BR>
<BR>
Or think up your own reason...or ignore the difference...it's *your*<BR>
game. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:28:20 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: TNE<BR>
<BR>
Like the Hard Times collapse effects only worse...<BR>
<BR>
Basically, (off the top of my head since the references are at home) TL<BR>
and Pops plummet, usually by 3-4 levels. Gov and Law often change.<BR>
<BR>
with very rare exceptions any world dependent on tech to support life is<BR>
depopulated completely.<BR>
<BR>
shimmer wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Can anyone give me a brief discription of what effects generating the TNE<BR>
> Calapse effects on a sector are?  I have never actualy read the TNE rules?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:25:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Since I claim to have physics-2, as well as an above-average ability to<BR>
create technobabble on the fly, I will take a stab at this.<BR>
<BR>
<Carlos><BR>
> >Meson Guns projects a stream of mesons in the eleven-dimensional<BR>
> >realspace from which the sophont-perceived four-dimensional  one is a<BR>
> >projection.<BR>
</Carlos><BR>
<BR>
This sounds very much like the technology developed by Bob Meson. I'm more a<BR>
believer in 23 dimensions, myself. This is mainly since then you can have<BR>
the universe be based on the Golay [23,12,7] error-correcting code, so that<BR>
we also have a number of parity check dimensions. With the Golay [23,12,7]<BR>
structure, you can actually lose any three dimensions, and still have no<BR>
damage to the universe. (No, I'm not being serious, although I do like the<BR>
Golay codes.)<BR>
<BR>
<Matt><BR>
> >As the Pi 0 meson is its own antiparticle (one of the very few particles<BR>
> >with this property) I suppose you could arrange to have *two* Pi 0 meson<BR>
> >beams intersect and mutually annihilate into gamma rays and/or<BR>
> >positron/electron pairs (which would in turn mutually annihilate into<BR>
> >gamma rays) within the target.<BR>
</Matt><BR>
<BR>
Since this model is more founded in real physics, it also has more potential<BR>
problems which you can find. For example, the Pi0 meson has an extremely<BR>
short life, about 1e-16 sec. So to make it zap a ship before it decays<BR>
requires extremely high velocities, and extremely high amounts of energy.<BR>
You need a speed of something like Sqrt((10^32-1)/10^32))*c for a range of<BR>
about 1 light-sec after the mesons are created, which is extremely close to<BR>
c.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also not up on how two Pi0 beams could annihilate. Usually you need some<BR>
sort of balancing of some sort of numbers, one positive and one negative, so<BR>
that the sum becomes all zeroes, like a photon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:28:17 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 12:19 PM,  "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Although it does lead one to wonder... How the hell does the IISS<BR>
>> determine world population anyway? My guess was that each world<BR>
>> conducted its own census and reported its results to the IISS,<BR>
>> but that may be a bit too sensible to be true...<BR>
<BR>
>But, then again, it may be the explanation we're looking for.  Imagine<BR>
>the planetary government separated its inhabitants into two (or more<BR>
>classes) - some (say 10%) considered 'citizens' and the rest not.  The<BR>
>gov't reports the census data as xxx,xxx number of 'citizens' and some<BR>
>Scout unfamiliar with the planet interprets it to mean xxx,xxx number of<BR>
>inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
>Later, another Scout familiar with the planet looks through the data,<BR>
>sees the error, and updates the UWP.  Presto - instant 10x increase in<BR>
>the population.<BR>
<BR>
Excellent suggestion!  <BR>
<BR>
And suppose the 3I collects taxes from worlds and uses pop as a basis for how much, so there might be a temptation to under-report. If otoh, it provides support based on pop, then there might be a temptation to over-report. Differences in source might be things for Scout teams, on the spot, to investigate.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:34:16 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
>Without Magic, our carriers would have been caught at Midway and sunk.<BR>
>or headed off to the Aleutians on a wild goose chase.<BR>
><BR>
>It was a Magic intercept of the Japanese taking our misinformation about<BR>
>Midway being short of water that confirmed for Halsey that Midway was<BR>
>the target and the Aleutians were a feint.<BR>
<BR>
The authorities in Washington.  Halsey ended-up in a hospital during Midway<BR>
with a bad case of skin rash, and Nimitz had already decided Midway was the<BR>
target..<BR>
<BR>
>More importantly, the Japanese fleet would have remained mostly intact.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm....Like it was at the end of Midway?<BR>
<BR>
>At that point, Japan would have been able to pressure the US for a<BR>
>negotiated peace, they may have been able to do it, too, because at that<BR>
>point, the Pacific became their wading pool, and the Us was facing a war<BR>
>in the Europe. <BR>
<BR>
How?  The Japanese had NO ability to hold Midway, especially in the presence<BR>
of large, hostile forces.<BR>
<BR>
Plus, Pearl Harbor created among the Americans an attitude which made a<BR>
total war to the capitulation of one or the other unavoidable.<BR>
<BR>
>They could have come back and done a better job on Pearl, at which point<BR>
>the US would have had to run a pacific campaign out of the West Coast of<BR>
>the US, rather long supply lines.<BR>
<BR>
Against large numbers of hostile forces, AND pre-dug fortifications.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't seem too likely.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, the Japanese would have secured all the oil reserves of the Dutch<BR>
>East Indes without any significant resistance from anyone(one oftheir<BR>
>primary objectives in the Pacific). They could hav also pushed east<BR>
<BR>
Question; how much of that oil got to Japan?  Or are you planning to stage<BR>
the entire Combine Fleet out of Batavia?<BR>
<BR>
>towards the Middle East. Had they been able to suppor the Germans there,<BR>
>the course of the european woar would have been quite<BR>
>different...Germany DESPERATELY needed that oil.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, India was just a small pitance, and the fact that Germany never<BR>
could achieve that is insignificant.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:49:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/25/00 1:54 PM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> People of other religions may worship other devils, but cannot worship<BR>
>> Satan.<BR>
> <BR>
> Seems like a rather spurious statement, given that one cannot be a<BR>
> Satanic-Christian, or Satanic-Jew.<BR>
<BR>
I have to disagree with you here Chris, but it may be a matter of semantics.<BR>
It is IMO /only/ the People of The Book who fall into service to the Fallen<BR>
One. I was one. It often is the result of deciding that the Bible is the<BR>
propaganda of a not-nice deity who is /not/ as omnipotent/omniscient as it<BR>
claims. One must believe in an entity before one knowingly serves it.<BR>
Satanisism is not a monolithic religion either, about as diverse as the<BR>
People of The Book are, which should come as no surprise.<BR>
<BR>
But this is getting quite OT (well, not to me, all things are Traveller) so<BR>
perhaps we should drop it or go private. Unless someone wants to post a<BR>
thesis on the enormous diversity of religion in the 3I and their<BR>
relationship with eachother. Ever see one of those cladograms for religion?<BR>
Like a tree showing the way groups have broke off from eachother or merged.<BR>
One for the 3I would be cool.<BR>
<BR>
Flames and controversial posts may be sent directly to me at<BR>
xrp@sierratel.com to avoid list clutter.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:50:59 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 04:19 PM,  "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> From:          Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>> 1) All off topic threads are limited in length to 3 days<BR>
>SNIP<BR>
>> 2) All off topic threads are to be clearly labeled.<BR>
>> I suggest that the list pick either [OT] or OT:<BR>
>SNIP<BR>
<BR>
>Wholeheartedly agreed (I was about to unsubscribe...). I would even <BR>
>(sadly) suggest that repeated violation of the above should lead to <BR>
>banning from the list, as only means of enforcement. It is very sad  that<BR>
>enforcement is needed, but the TML archives seem to indicate  that. If<BR>
>Rob Miracle does not have the time for this, I suggest to  ask him to<BR>
>authorize a handful of people for that, kind souls who  never resort to<BR>
>personal insults,  like MJ Dougherty, Eris  Reddoch, and Peter Newman.<BR>
<BR>
<sarcasm> Thanks a *lot* Carlos! </sarcasm><BR>
<BR>
>Anybody that nobody objects and accepts  the job... We have to face it,<BR>
>if some people would have banned after  the third personal insult, the<BR>
>ratio of signal-to-noise would have  been much better in the last months.<BR>
<BR>
I'm as bad as the next guy at posting on topics that aren't directly<BR>
related to Traveller.  The thing is, though, that a lot of strange<BR>
topics *can* be used in the game.  So, I'm not in favor of having a<BR>
heavy hand on some off-topic posts.<BR>
<BR>
What I do agree with is that we *all* should cut out the flaming and<BR>
insults...period, no exceptions...AND don't respond to anyone that<BR>
does.  That means don't trash the US, France, England, Christians,<BR>
Satanists, Bhudists, Nudists or each other, and don't defend them<BR>
from anyone that trashes them.<BR>
<BR>
As an old Fidoite, I subscribe to the twin rules of <BR>
<BR>
 1. Don't offend others<BR>
    and<BR>
 2. Don't be too easily offended<BR>
 <BR>
And add my own which is..."Think and think again before you post!"<BR>
<BR>
IMO, the way to deal with flames, insults, trolls and outra-OT<BR>
subjects is for the entire community to *IGNORE* them. <BR>
<BR>
If OTOH, you want to have rules and enforcers, then you need to talk<BR>
it over with the list owner.  Rob Mirale *owns* this list..we just<BR>
play here. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:06:06 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
<BR>
No It wasnt intentionally taken from there<BR>
Raider X simply means <BR>
Raider class Experimental<BR>
<BR>
first ship of a new class<BR>
without a class name chosen as of yet<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:57:38 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT} RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 09:17 AM,  Bill <beast@aracnet.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I haven't posted much to this list because I have had very little to <BR>
>say. I read most of the posts and end up discarding those that I find <BR>
>inane or trivial.<BR>
<BR>
Same here. I save maybe 1 in 200, but I do enjoy reading a much higher percentage. Heck, some of the jokes and stories and almost all the reviews posted here are technically off topic, but a lot of them are worth the read.<BR>
<BR>
>Flame wars and off topic posts are inevitable in any discussion  forum.<BR>
>What makes them worse is when we lower ourselves to responding  to them.<BR>
>(seems I may be doing that now ;-{P  ) Simple rule of  thumb...If it<BR>
>offends you...Discard it.<BR>
>It's people who continually try to get the last word in edgewise that <BR>
>keep flame wars going.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't mean to sound cliche' but... (As my mother used to say) "If  you<BR>
>haven't got anything good to say... shut the hell up" (mom) ;)<BR>
<BR>
>Off topic discussions are also a part of any discussion forum. We can <BR>
>either choose to be a part of them, discard them, or become annoyed  that<BR>
>our topic of discussion is not the center of attention. My  preference is<BR>
>for either of the first two. If I don't want to read a  particular threat<BR>
>I simply don't read it.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly!<BR>
<BR>
>Trying to enforce rules in a situation like we have here is mostly <BR>
>absurd. People are always going to try and circumvent them.<BR>
<BR>
>I would suggest this.<BR>
<BR>
>If you have an off topic discussion label it as such in the Subject line.<BR>
>(I've seen this occurring here but not regularly)<BR>
<BR>
>If you encounter a flame, ignore it. It will go away a lot faster if  you<BR>
>simply disregard and discard it.<BR>
<BR>
>As far as banning people from the list... Those people who have  nothing<BR>
>to say but personal attacks are mostly trying to gain some  sort of<BR>
>attention. If you give it to them, they will continue their  course of<BR>
>activity simply to get a rise out of you. Again... If you  disregard them<BR>
>and discard these posts they will soon learn that they  aren't getting<BR>
>that which they most desire...Attention.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, those sound like FAQ'able rules to me. <g><BR>
<BR>
>Okay... I'm sure that all of you have heard this before and perhaps  some<BR>
>of you are saying to yourselves..."Duuuuh... No sh** <BR>
>Sherlock!...What a lame post"<BR>
<BR>
Not hardly, you're making perfect sense to me.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:59:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Nick Wright" <nick@corlecca.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Unusual Battlefield Communications <BR>
<BR>
Peez wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I heard that British soldiers telephoned civilians in nearby towns<BR>
>for intel on enemy movements during the Falklands conflict, but I<BR>
>don't know if this actually happened.<BR>
<BR>
Yes it did. The infantry were in one settlement at the bottom of a valley<BR>
with another settlement at the other end of the valley.  The hills on each<BR>
side were full of Argentinians.  The Argentinians had not been getting good<BR>
control of the phones so the British commander rang the next settlement:<BR>
<BR>
"Have the Argies been there?"<BR>
"Yes"<BR>
"Are they there now?"<BR>
"No.  Are you coming?"<BR>
"Yes."<BR>
"We'll put the kettle on please bring some tea."<BR>
<BR>
The Infantry commander went out to to his men to find that low cloud had<BR>
formed on the hills hiding his movements  from the Argentinians.  He called<BR>
up the one remaining Chinook  to transport his men at ground level. When it<BR>
arrives, he talks to the loadmaster.<BR>
<BR>
"I want you to take my men to the other end of the valley."<BR>
Loadmaster looks at the company forming up to load.  "Fine."<BR>
"How many can you take?"<BR>
"I've got seats for thirty the rest will have to stand."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
They got 86 fully armed troops inside.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Nick Wright<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:02:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Hi Eris<BR>
<BR>
>Question 1:  What does it take to run iGM and iPC?  <BR>
><BR>
>    a.  Ram/HD space?<BR>
	Recommended 32Mb minimum<BR>
	HD Space after initial install is around 10-15Mb<BR>
<BR>
>    b.  Bandwidth -- how does it work on 33/56k dial ups?<BR>
	Pretty well, our GM uses a 56K dialup for his games, but we started over a 28.8K dialup. A lot depends on the number of players connected (and their connection speeds), along with the size of the file being sent. For the text portion, it is very peppy.<BR>
    <BR>
>    c.  OS -- Win 95/98?  Mac?  Linux/Unix? Java based?<BR>
	Currently Win 95/98/NT4/2000<BR>
    <BR>
>    d.  Future ports planned?<BR>
	Yes, of course this depends on the success of the Windows version. Linux and Mac being the obvious first ports if done.<BR>
    <BR>
>    e.  Does the game go through a particular server, like on your<BR>
>        site, say?<BR>
	No and that is one of it's particular strengths. The iGM Module is a small personal game server run on your computer. The players (using the iPC Module) connect directly with you. No worries about a central server being down or lagged.<BR>
<BR>
>Question 2:  Is GM + 8 a hard limit?  <BR>
>    (I ask because I'm the Ref that can't seem say no, and have more<BR>
>    than 8 players in both the Trav games I run online.)<BR>
	Currently yes. That may change in the future, but honestly I can't see handling more than 8 at a time as a GM. Hehe that not saying there aren't GMs out there that can't, but most GMs seem to agree that 8 is about the limit they can truly handle at one time.<BR>
<BR>
>Question 3:  Character Generation, you say all books?<BR>
><BR>
>    a.  Does that mean all Classic Traveller Books (1-8 & Supps)<BR>
>        (CT)?<BR>
	Yes CT, Books 1, 4, 5, 6, and Citizens of the Imperium. Merchant Prince is currently being worked out and being a bear due to the differences between it and other books.<BR>
	<BR>
>    b.  Does that mean MegaTraveller (MT)?<BR>
	Current no, but may be incorporated in a future version of the Character Generator.    <BR>
<BR>
>    c.  What about Traveller: New Era rules (TNE)?<BR>
	Current no, but may be incorporated in a future version of the Character Generator.    <BR>
<BR>
    <BR>
>    d.  Mark Miller's Traveller (T4)?<BR>
	Current no, but may be incorporated in a future version of the Character Generator.    <BR>
<BR>
    <BR>
>Question 4:  World/System Generation?<BR>
><BR>
>    a.  How complete, what rules?<BR>
	Currently only Book 3 but looking at adding Book 7 rules also. The Sector/World Generator can create and populate an entire sector, subsector, or individual worlds, along with allowing you to enter and display xboat routes.<BR>
    <BR>
>    b.  Mainworld or complete system?<BR>
	Main world only, but if add Book 7 it will then generate complete systems.<BR>
<BR>
>    c.  Have you looked at either "Heaven & Earth" or "Galactic<BR>
>        2.4"? <BR>
	Actually no, point me to a link and I'll check em out<BR>
        <BR>
>    d.  And in relation to c, is there an import facility to bring<BR>
>        system/world details in from other programs?<BR>
	Yes, it will import SEC and WBS type Sector Map Files.        <BR>
<BR>
>Question 5:  I saw the mapping utility on your web site, but it is<BR>
>             aimed at dungeon crawls.  Do you have predefined tiles<BR>
>             for ship deckplans, Trav's version of a crawl ;-)?<BR>
	But of course! We even have the Deck Plans of a Scout Ship available, along with Adventures 1 and 2 (Kinunir and Research Station Gamma) already available.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Question 6:  How much of the Official Traveller Universe (OTU)<BR>
>             database is available in the box, planned to be added,<BR>
>             and how user-extendable is it?  <BR>
	Not sure I follow on this one. The Library Data System included in the box has all of the Library Data from the original 2 CT Library Data books, and the ability to edit them, and add your own entries.<BR>
             <BR>
>Question 7:  Is ship to ship combat addressed, and if so how?<BR>
	What we have been playing with is designing Character Sheets to represent our ships. When we have StS combat, we load up the appropriate ship sheets.<BR>
<BR>
>Question 8:  I doubt you address this, but I think I should ask.<BR>
>             Are design sequences for equipment, weapons, vehicles<BR>
>             and ships included?<BR>
	Currently none, but we are working on a Ship Designer (ala CT Books 2 and 5) that will incorporate the Map system and allow you to design deck plans at the same time.<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, I'll stop now and let you answer. <g>  <BR>
><BR>
>Thanks for coming on the list.<BR>
><BR>
>I left your contact info for list member reference...<BR>
	Heh np and thanks! I hope these answers help. If you need or want more specific info feel free to ask.<BR>
<BR>
I do want to point out that I have looked at other Traveller character generators and sector world builders out there, and there are some REALLY good ones! The reason we are developing our own is to allow for them to be used within an online play enviroment. For example, the Sector/World Generator has the ability to let the GM send the players the Sector/Subsector map, and the ability to hide or display certain aspects of the World UPP info. The Library Data system is designed to let the GM send the players specific Library Data entries to the players when and if appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
I might also point out the obvious, that currently our Traveller material is CT centric. This for a couple of reasons. One, CT is our personal favorite of the various Traveller incarnations (not to knock any others). We also are working to support the re-release of the CT books that Marc is issuing. As GRIP continues to develop, and as demand calls for it, you can be sure we will look at introducing new material geared to the other Traveller versions.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone is interested in checking out playing Traveller on GRIP, we've got two campaigns running each week. On Thurdays at 7pm EST we have a Spinward Marches campaign using CT rules set in the beginning of the Virus Era. On Fridays at 10pm EST we have an espionage/covert-ops Traveller campaign (this is my campaign) set in a non-traditional Traveller universe. A couple of spaces are usually open on any given week and we are happy to bring new players on board! You will need to download and install the FREE iPC Module from the website, and use the included GRIPNet IRC client to log on to the IRC network and meet with the GM and other players usually a half-hour before game time.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
GRIP:<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2511<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (rly-yg03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.3]) by air-yg02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 17:04:51 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 17:04:08 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA42421;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 17:03:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 17:03:05 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA42381<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 17:03:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:03:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005262103.RAA42381@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2511<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2512</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 3:51:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2512<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Strategic Ships with an ObTrav (was re: Political Battleships OT: ) <BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
near-C rocks handwave<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: TML Rules<BR>
Re: TML Rules<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: H&E<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: too many arguments...<BR>
RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
Re: Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
RE: The nature of war in the imperium<BR>
Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
Plot Idea: What if...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:00:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Strategic Ships with an ObTrav (was re: Political Battleships OT: ) <BR>
<BR>
howard andersonw wrote:<BR>
>>More importantly, the Japanese fleet would have remained mostly<BR>
>>intact. <BR>
><BR>
>Hmmm....Like it was at the end of Midway? <BR>
<BR>
I've read a comment from a Japanese historian that <BR>
referred to the final American dive bomber attack <BR>
at Midway as "The Fifteen Minutes That Lost the War."<BR>
<BR>
Yamamoto realized by then that battleships, cruisers<BR>
and destroyers were rapidly becoming carrier group<BR>
escorts.  Guess who just lost his carrier group?<BR>
<BR>
The IJN still had most of its ships, but calling the<BR>
Midway task force (or even the Japanese fleet as a whole)<BR>
"mostly intact" after the Midway battle is, IMO,<BR>
wrong.  The ships lost were far more important than the<BR>
ships saved, and even the carriers that escaped and/or<BR>
didn't take part in the flight suffered from the naval<BR>
aviation losses.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I've been thinking that all it would take to<BR>
shift the balance of power towards Battleships and<BR>
away from Battle Riders would be to have rules that<BR>
made it easier to get a solid shot in at Battle Tenders.<BR>
In HG, for example, have rules that make the Line of <BR>
Battle more permeable for ships willing to get shot at.<BR>
Battle Rider forces, after all, concentrate a phenomenal<BR>
amount of strategic importance into certain ships, far<BR>
more than any Battleship force would.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:03:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
> >I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if the GT and<BR>
> >GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For example, there's a world<BR>
> >in the Spinward Marches that has a population of millions in Supplement 3<BR>
> >and the Imperial Atlas, but in the<BR>
> >billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we believe?<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris, the heretic, shakes his head in dismay and says, "Why,<BR>
> whichever one *you* want to believe!  Of course!!!"<BR>
> <BR>
> You can also consider either source to be in error...in-game error.<BR>
<BR>
Uuh, yeah, of course. But what if you're working on a GURPS Traveller<BR>
supplement, or working on a TML land grab, or doing something else<BR>
where it's important to Stick to the Canon? What takes precedence?<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, I could just decide arbitrarily... But that could be said about<BR>
any dilemna. I thought I would inquire about the consensus on this<BR>
issue.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:10:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
<BR>
Since we've reached the point of coming up with handwaves to explain meson guns, I decided to come up with a handwave to explain away near-C rocks (and, as important, perpetual motion machines due to violation of conservation of energy).  Does this seem like a viable handwave?<BR>
<BR>
Thruster Plate Handwave<BR>
<BR>
*Handwave*<BR>
From 'Introduction to Gravetics'<BR>
<BR>
Standard explanations of gravetic systems inform us that they operate <BR>
by means of an interaction with the gravitational field of a nearby<BR>
massive object, allowing the object to in effect 'push' against a<BR>
dominant nearby field; thruster plates use a similar, if slightly <BR>
more complex, mechanism.  However, if you have been following the prior<BR>
discussion of classical mechanics, you will see an immediate problem.<BR>
Power = Force * Velocity.  The power input of a standard high-efficiency<BR>
contragravity system is equal to 2 watts per newton.  The power output<BR>
will be force * velocity (where velocity is relative to the object the<BR>
force is being applied against), so if velocity exceeds 2 meters per<BR>
second, it appears that our contragravity system will be producing more<BR>
power than it consumes, a clear violation of conservation of energy.  If<BR>
the velocity vector is reversed, the contragravity system can actually<BR>
be causing huge quantities of energy to disappear.<BR>
<BR>
If this were in fact all that is going on, this naive assumption would<BR>
be correct.  In actuality, it leaves out one factor -- contragravity<BR>
system depletion.  This is a term I'm sure many of you have heard before,<BR>
but it bears explaining.  A contragravity system can be viewed as a<BR>
specialized form of battery, which is discharged as you move against<BR>
the force of gravity, and recharged as you move with the force of gravity.<BR>
The power input of a standard contragravity system is in fact solely<BR>
required as a catalytic effect.<BR>
<BR>
In the absence of friction, contragravity systems would not need to be<BR>
concerned with depletion; other than the catalytic costs, there is very<BR>
little lost energy when accelerating and then decelerating again.<BR>
However, in normal usage friction plays a role, and thus the stored <BR>
energy of a contragravity system is gradually depleted.  Most vehicles<BR>
are designed with a limited ability to recharge their contragravity<BR>
systems, but sufficient abuse will usually cause breakdowns.<BR>
<BR>
So, given there's a limited amount of energy in a contragravity system,<BR>
how much does it actually hold?  The answer depends on the type of<BR>
system, but is extremely high; standard contragravity systems usually<BR>
store around 10^10 joules per newton, or around 6.7x10^12 joules per<BR>
kilogram for a standard high efficiency contragravity system.  Thruster<BR>
plates, which use somewhat similar mechanics, hold even more; roughly<BR>
4.5x10^11 joules per newton, or 1.8x10^14 joules per kilogram.  For<BR>
comparison, the energy release of protium fusion is in the vicinity<BR>
of 6 x 10^14 joules per kilogram (*note: in GT, these figures are<BR>
9 x 10^13 joules/kg for TL 10 drives, 2.25x10^14 joules/kg for TL 11<BR>
drives, 2 x 10^14 joules/kg for contragravity).<BR>
<BR>
One might be concerned with the question of whether this stored energy<BR>
can be used to make a bomb.  The answer, as far as anyone knows, is<BR>
that it cannot.  If breached, thruster plates do emit dangerous levels<BR>
of radiation, with a half-life of around a hundred years; if used <BR>
properly this rate can be considerably accelerated, with a maximum <BR>
discharge rate of around 1% per hour (this results in a noticeable<BR>
drop in thrust above 4% of c).  In principle, a thruster plate could<BR>
be used as a general purpose battery/power plant, but the required<BR>
weight winds up being no less than a fusion power plant.<BR>
<BR>
*Mechanical Effects of Handwave*<BR>
<BR>
Reactionless drives are defined as pushing on a local gravitational<BR>
field, and should work poorly if not moderately near a star.<BR>
<BR>
Drives can become depleted; this will require recharging, which may be<BR>
expensive.  In practice severe depletion is probably rare unless you<BR>
are choosing to take high-speed ballistic paths through systems, and<BR>
drop off kinetic energy bombs on your way through.  A drive will be<BR>
fully depleted by hitting a velocity of 0.01 c * sqrt(Gs), but will<BR>
generally be recharged by decelerating (unless, of course, you lose<BR>
some mass while at top speed, in which case the energy of that mass<BR>
gets carried off with it).  That top speed can be reached by <BR>
accelerating in a straight line for 3 AU, and thus should not affect<BR>
trips of less than 6 AU (requiring 1/sqrt(G) weeks).<BR>
<BR>
Breached drives are dangerously radioactive, emitting roughly 100 watts<BR>
per newton of thrust (1 megawatt per ton).  Roughly 95% of this is<BR>
in the form of gravity waves and neutrinos, and mostly harmless, but<BR>
the remainder is quite dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
C-fractional kinetic kill weapons are still doable, but of limited<BR>
effectiveness; a vessel (or rock) with completely depleted thrusters<BR>
will have a kinetic energy of 4.5x10^11 joules/newton (roughly one<BR>
megaton per ton of thrust); as noted above, this takes a 3 AU starting<BR>
course.<BR>
<BR>
The business about not being more efficient than a fusion plant is a<BR>
bit of a handwave, but not horrible; if you assume that t-plate drives<BR>
object to being compressed at more than a hundred Gs, you need a fairly<BR>
large wheel structure (20 meters or so) to match the power per unit<BR>
weight of a fusion plant, and the volume requirements are fairly<BR>
appalling.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:15:22 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
> Uuh, yeah, of course. But what if you're working on a GURPS Traveller<BR>
> supplement, or working on a TML land grab, or doing something else<BR>
> where it's important to Stick to the Canon? What takes precedence?<BR>
<BR>
If you are working on a GURPS supplement, always count other GURPS<BR>
supplements as more canon than non-GURPS supplements. That way, SJgames<BR>
get a coherent product line.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:10:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm...<BR>
<BR>
This GRIP stuff is being distributed as a commercial<BR>
venture, in a licensing arrangement with Far Future.<BR>
<BR>
Will this license prohibit Traveller fans from continuing<BR>
work on freebie software tools that do the same kinds<BR>
of things the GRIP team wants to include with their<BR>
product?  Like chargen, sector/subsector programs,<BR>
ship construction stuff, etc?  Or is it non-exclusive?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:13:52 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Rules<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 01:12 AM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Too many rules spoils the broth.<BR>
>Ignorance is bliss.<BR>
>Hide the reply button, make the delete key prominent,<BR>
<BR>
True, true, true! <g><BR>
<BR>
>and you'll find the list is much more manageable.  I delete<BR>
>about 50-70% of the posts unread.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, and here's the rub, dear Bloo!  I try *really* hard to skim all the posts here and quite often find true gems buried amist the dross of all those articles I bet you're deleting unread.  I'd love for there to be a "gem finder" that would point me to the good tid-bits in the middle of threads that have truned into garbage. Alas and alack!<BR>
<BR>
I don't think there is a good answer to these problems other than self-restrant, the willingness to skim and *ignore* drek, and a fast trigger on the delete button.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:41:54 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Rules<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/26/00 at 01:12 AM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >Too many rules spoils the broth.<BR>
> >Ignorance is bliss.<BR>
> >Hide the reply button, make the delete key prominent,<BR>
><BR>
> True, true, true! <g><BR>
><BR>
> >and you'll find the list is much more manageable.  I delete<BR>
> >about 50-70% of the posts unread.<BR>
><BR>
> Ah, and here's the rub, dear Bloo!  I try *really* hard to skim all the posts here and quite often find true gems buried amist the dross of all those articles I bet you're deleting unread.  I'd love for there to be a "gem finder" that would point me to the good tid-bits in the middle of threads that have truned into garbage. Alas and alack!<BR>
><BR>
> I don't think there is a good answer to these problems other than self-restrant, the willingness to skim and *ignore* drek, and a fast trigger on the delete button.<BR>
<BR>
You mean, there are poor sods out there NOT doing this?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:36:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 12:25 AM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Except that I'm pretty sure that meson decay involves the *strong*<BR>
> nuclear force, and nuclear dampers/accelerators are *specifically*<BR>
> stated as involving the weak nuclear force.<BR>
<BR>
Ahh. Phooey, another hand-wave bites the dust, next please? ;)<BR>
<BR>
You know what might be nice is a page of handwaves with pros, cons,<BR>
rebutals, etc. like California's proposition pamphlets. Maybe separate pages<BR>
for each accessed data base style or something, if the collection got big<BR>
enough. Is there already one?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:37:29 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
On 05/25/00 at 12:38 PM,  Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?=<BR>
><Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
<BR>
>>> Stinging nettles. <BR>
>>Does anyone know if this is the plant known in finnis as<BR>
>>"nokkonen"?<BR>
<BR>
>Valitettavasti sanakirjani ei ole toimistossa.<BR>
<BR>
Stop that cussing! <g><BR>
<BR>
I grew up as a barefoot boy in the summer. Many, many times I stepped on stinging nettles, but *never* on purpose.  I can't say the idea of eating the stuff ever crossed my head. <g><BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  Toxins and allergistic reactions from brushing against alien flora. Scouts better be prepared for anaphlactic shock. Oh, and some of those tainted atmospheres...spores from native plants?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:37:41 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Well, just one thing: Fire storms were not rare at all in Germany<BR>
> > diuring the second half of WWII, from what my grandmothers told me. Or<BR>
> > the history books. Most cities were *literally* large charred areas, not<BR>
> > cities any more.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sorry, but "firestorm" has a specific meaning, and they only occured a<BR>
> few times. Firestorms are *huge* conflagrations that get large enough<BR>
> and intense enough to generate their own wind. Once that happens you<BR>
> don't get "charred" areas. You get nothing but fine ash, and there is<BR>
> *nothing* combustible left. And most glas and stone are melted into slag.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
Don't read too much into my words. It's a foreign language for me. By<BR>
"literally charred" I mean there was nothing left except something that<BR>
might be identified as ruins- with a bit good will and imagination.<BR>
But it shouldn't be so hard to find pictures of Hamburg, Frankfurt,<BR>
Dresden, Berlin... or Coventry, Rotterdam, and many other European<BR>
cities after extensive "strategic bombing".<BR>
<BR>
And eye witness reports I read and saw at TV always mention that<BR>
during/after the "bomber nights", the fire generated its own wind.<BR>
Additionally, my own grandmother told me that when Kassel was bombed in<BR>
1943, she saw the shine of the fire in her home village; that is about<BR>
eighty kilometers away from Kassel. So I this does not sound like a few<BR>
isolated burning buildings.<BR>
<BR>
So to end this (for me), these firestorm-causing bombings of civilian<BR>
population, for whatever reason they were applied, were far from being<BR>
"rare". (Only in so much as there was a limited number of cities to<BR>
target on both sides, of course.) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:48:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 4:27 AM, stevedaniels@portcaddo.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I want to get interested in their software, but then I<BR>
> look at the screenshots and suddenly I want to play<BR>
> Tribes.  ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
What's Tribes?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, doesn't "GRIP" sound an awful lot like "GURPS" to you?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:00:37 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On 05/26/00 at 05:10 PM,  "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm...<BR>
<BR>
>This GRIP stuff is being distributed as a commercial<BR>
>venture, in a licensing arrangement with Far Future.<BR>
<BR>
>Will this license prohibit Traveller fans from continuing<BR>
>work on freebie software tools that do the same kinds<BR>
>of things the GRIP team wants to include with their<BR>
>product?  Like chargen, sector/subsector programs,<BR>
>ship construction stuff, etc?  Or is it non-exclusive?<BR>
<BR>
I sure *hope* it's non-exclusive.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:16:21 -0500<BR>
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E<BR>
<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Mac Port? Did you /really/ say Mac port? I would love this, I have even<BR>
> >> thought about running Windoze on VPC or something, but an actual Mac version<BR>
> >> would be screaming!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Indeed!  How long do you think the Mac port is going to take (ballpark<BR>
> > figure)?<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> I wouldn't care to say until I look at the source.  It will depend on how<BR>
> much needs to be rewritten.  I understand that the source is VB, and we'll<BR>
> probably want to move to c++ and get the source in some variety of source<BR>
> control.  Plus development will have to be as time allows, since this will<BR>
> be another freeware effort.<BR>
<BR>
Then again take a look at http://www.visi.com/~markn (shameless plug),<BR>
and<BR>
then http://www.freiburg.linux.de/~wxxt/ and http://www.wxwindows.org . <BR>
I<BR>
really don't know how far along the Mac version is however.  <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark<BR>
<BR>
Linux, it is now safe to turn ON your computer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:08:36 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On 5/26/2000 at 5:10 PM Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm...<BR>
><BR>
>This GRIP stuff is being distributed as a commercial<BR>
>venture, in a licensing arrangement with Far Future.<BR>
><BR>
>Will this license prohibit Traveller fans from continuing<BR>
>work on freebie software tools that do the same kinds<BR>
>of things the GRIP team wants to include with their<BR>
>product?  Like chargen, sector/subsector programs,<BR>
>ship construction stuff, etc?  Or is it non-exclusive?<BR>
<BR>
Nope the freebie tools are good to go. As a matter of fact, if any developers out that want to work with us to make their products work closely with GRIP, get in touch with us! If you want your programs included on the GRIP:Traveller Edition CD-ROM we'll set that up for you also!<BR>
<BR>
Our license 'exclusivity' only runs to online text-based chat. And no that doesn't include problems with the new Massive Online Multiplayer Traveller game that is now under development. Honestly we are looking forward to that ourselves!<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
GRIP:<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:11:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: too many arguments...<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 5:48 AM, Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, Meson discussion makes sense for Traveller, doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
Well, I think so. I'm not sure why discussing the tactics of WWI & II are<BR>
not Traveller either. Some folks /do/ play mercenaries, and it seems to me<BR>
it makes for great background. Not directly, but as piecemeal examples of<BR>
war at TL:? since such a Merc Ticket would be possible. Now /I/ am more into<BR>
scout campaigns, so the thread is less interesting, but I scan it. The<BR>
theology thread is very interesting (to me), but much less Traveller, at<BR>
least so far. I also understand that the topic might be touchy to some, but<BR>
I am quite relaxed on the issue. I'm a relaxed kind of guy. The Cartel post<BR>
by the much villified Legate Legion has been one of the best lately, a point<BR>
rather amusing to me. But I thought there was to much of a limited set of<BR>
topics argued/debated, and would rather see more variety, regardless of<BR>
volume.<BR>
<BR>
I have a question, has anyone done a Total Steller Mass Index for systems in<BR>
the Spinward Marches?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:23:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
- -> On Thu, 25 May 2000 16:31:04 -0400 (EDT), "Benyamene' ZeAbe'<BR>
> Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>You forgot Islam, whose members believe in "The Adversary" as well.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Oh, you mean the US.  "The Great Satan"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:08:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    And, do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?<BR>
Because<BR>
>>god doesn't trust the English in the Dark.<BR>
><BR>
> And having watched too much BlackAdder, I might even agree with Him on<BR>
this<BR>
>one...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Nah, came from Sliders.<BR>
<BR>
> ...or maybe that's just Rowen Atkinson (sp?) I wouldn't trust in the<BR>
dark...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    With sheep.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:13:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Raider X class Commerce Raider[THUDD 12 Idea]<BR>
<BR>
From: Shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>No It wasnt intentionally taken from there<BR>
>Raider X simply means<BR>
>Raider class Experimental<BR>
><BR>
>first ship of a new class<BR>
>without a class name chosen as of yet<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Up to you, but I would come up with a class name ASAP.  Remember what<BR>
happened to FASA.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:22:32 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
<BR>
On 5/26/2000 at 2:48 PM Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 4:27 AM, stevedaniels@portcaddo.com issued<BR>
>forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> I want to get interested in their software, but then I<BR>
>> look at the screenshots and suddenly I want to play<BR>
>> Tribes.  ;-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> bloo<BR>
><BR>
>What's Tribes?<BR>
<BR>
I second this question. I'm not familiar with it either.<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, doesn't "GRIP" sound an awful lot like "GURPS" to you?<BR>
<BR>
Nah, not to us it doesn't, and it's never been an issue for users honestly. There are plenty of GURPS players who have discovered and use GRIP for their online games ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:38:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> But, then again, it may be the explanation we're looking for.<BR>
> Imagine the planetary government separated its inhabitants into<BR>
> two (or more classes) - some (say 10%) considered 'citizens' and<BR>
> the rest not.  The gov't reports the census data as xxx,xxx<BR>
> number of 'citizens' and some Scout unfamiliar with the planet<BR>
> interprets it to mean xxx,xxx number of inhabitants.<BR>
><BR>
> Later, another Scout familiar with the planet looks through the<BR>
> data, sees the error, and updates the UWP.  Presto - instant 10x<BR>
> increase in the population.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget the Imperium is BIG.  With a huge bureaucracy.  More likely<BR>
some data entry clerk back near capital misplaced a decimal. Some new clerk<BR>
from the 'civilized' section of space.  "Hey, one million must be wrong!<BR>
They probably meant billion.<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod L Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating<BR>
their brains".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:46:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The nature of war in the imperium<BR>
<BR>
> The entire concept was quite civilized. The military met on the<BR>
> field of battle, away from civilian targets, and would fight<BR>
> until a clear victory was in sight.<BR>
> Warriors would surrender instead of fighting to the death in a<BR>
> clearly losing battle, knowing that they would be treated with<BR>
> respect and have even a chance to ransom equipment lost in battle.<BR>
><BR>
> Using the full military might of the war machines on civilian<BR>
> population centers would have the entire sphere (Traveller 3I<BR>
> Sector?) hunting your unit as outlaws and murderers.<BR>
><BR>
> While it is romantic, and most realists might be right that many<BR>
> people would not fight this way, it works for me IMTU. 3I<BR>
> Mercenaries work like this to remain in good graces with<BR>
> governments on both sides.<BR>
><BR>
This reminds me of some of Mack Reynolds' military scifi.  Small armies<BR>
settling corporate disputed with all military equipment limited to the<BR>
technology of 1900 or earlier.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:39:13 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
<BR>
This is the stuff I was going to put into the last post, but didnt, because<BR>
of running out of time.<BR>
<BR>
The Normans were an interesting group. For me, their main "defining feature"<BR>
as a culture was that they had no "defining features" - they were cultural<BR>
chameleons, who adapted to the dominant culture of their area.<BR>
<BR>
However, they did keep one main features - a strong awareness of what a bad<BR>
thing it is to dilute power, and what a good thing it was to accumulate<BR>
power.<BR>
<BR>
The best proof their nature as cultural chameleons is the Anglo-Saxon<BR>
chronicles, which makes it quite clear that the Normans were defeated at<BR>
Stamford Bridge, but the French (William of Normandy and friends) won at<BR>
Hastings.<BR>
<BR>
Now, the "do not dilute power" thing had as it's main mechanic the iron law<BR>
of primogenture - the eldest son got everything. Their strong Christian<BR>
ethos tended to put the second son into the Church, which meant third sons<BR>
got a horse and a sword. A secondary but important mechanic was the way the<BR>
Normans had everyone swearing fealty to the King first, and to their<BR>
superior second. This maximised the number of oathbreakers needed for a<BR>
successful rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
The "accumulate power" thing meant that the Norman nobility was far more<BR>
concerned with the detail of administration than any other nobility of the<BR>
period. An example of the incredulity other people had of this is the<BR>
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which had derision for the new King William, as a man<BR>
who counted pigs (aka the Domesday book - which recorded more detail than<BR>
many of it's twentieth-century equivalents). A second detail is the way the<BR>
Normans put a direct line of responsibility for taxation direct to the<BR>
ruling noble, rather than via tax farmers or local nobility.<BR>
<BR>
The Normans ended up in Sicily after being hired as mercenaries by the<BR>
Kingdom of Naples. To cut a long story short, they liked it and stayed.<BR>
<BR>
At the time, Sicily was at the intersection of three cultures - the Muslim,<BR>
the Greek and the Latin. Byzantium had a traditional interest in the area,<BR>
North Africa was Muslim, and Italy was Latin.<BR>
<BR>
The Norman administration in Sicily was remarkably tolerant to cultural and<BR>
religious issues. I believe that at least one of Duke Roger's chief<BR>
administrators was Jewish (Roger was denied a crown due to issues of<BR>
precedence - the Pope wouldnt give him a crown, and thus status close to<BR>
equal to the King of France, without a quid pro quo).<BR>
<BR>
He also managed to conquer a number of coastal towns in North Africa, but<BR>
these were lost to the ?Almovarids? during the . One thing that helped Roger<BR>
in his relationship is that Sicily was a major source of grain, and food<BR>
security was always the top concern of whoever controlled a North African<BR>
coastal town.<BR>
<BR>
I remember reading a very good article about the Norman empire in North<BR>
Africa. I think it was in a recent (last 2-3 years) article in either the<BR>
Journal of Medieval History or the Journal of Meditteranean History. There<BR>
was a transcript of Roger being quite scathing (as in "*fart* My ass can<BR>
give better counsel than that") to a proposal that he helps a bunch of<BR>
Franks conquer some towns in North Africa ("These men are my friends, and<BR>
they have never done ill to me. And if those Franks own those towns, then<BR>
they will surely make trouble for me") in the article.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Plot Idea: What if...<BR>
<BR>
Inspired by the Empress Wave and by a supernova plot I used in an old game.<BR>
<BR>
How would it affect the TU if you had a lightspeed wave, say about a parsec thick, which simply blocked all attempts to jump within or through it.  Doesn't affect anything to either side of it -- just disrupts jump travel within the area of the wave.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, any world that can't go 3 years without interstellar trade would collapse.  Beyond that, though, it seems like a perfect opportunity to do some empire-building on the backside of the wave -- just wait for systems to come out of the wave, and then take control of them.<BR>
<BR>
How would it differ if the wave was emanating from a point source in imperial space (say, in the Great Rift), or was more a flat plane coming from well outside the imperium?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2512<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (rly-ye03.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.200]) by air-ye02.mx.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:51:02 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:50:16 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA47338;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 18:49:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 18:49:34 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA47304<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:49:34 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:49:34 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005262249.SAA47304@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2512<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2513</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 7:12:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2513<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
Re: The will to win<BR>
Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
[OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
Re: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
Duchess Delphine<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
[OT] Tribes<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
RE: Visual Basic project<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Regeina, Sector Capital?<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:04:16 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Mora was sector capitol until Norris (in both MT and GURPS Traveller)<BR>
>became the Archduke of Deneb. When he became an Archduke he now ranked<BR>
>Duchess Delphine of Mora and his Ducal fief, Regina, became the sector<BR>
>capitol. <BR>
<BR>
This is definitely wrong with regard to MT. Mora remained sector capital<BR>
(And a very reasonable thing too. Think about the massive upheaval a change<BR>
of capital would entail). So the idea that because Norris became Archduke<BR>
of Deneb, Regina automatically became the sector capital is also wrong<BR>
(since it didn't happen in the OTU).<BR>
<BR>
I suppose it _could_ have happened differently in the GT universe, but<BR>
I don't see why it should. All the same difficulties would still apply.<BR>
<BR>
>However IIRC Norris kept Mora as _Domain_ capitol as it is much more<BR>
>centrally located (and less vulnerable to attack) than Regina is.<BR>
<BR>
He didn't keep Mora as domain capital, because Mora wasn't domain capital.<BR>
There _were_ no domain capital. What he did was keep Mora as sector capital<BR>
AND set up the domain capital on Mora too.<BR>
<BR>
And Matt Stevens writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>...I'm going to believe that the history of the GT universe is identical<BR>
>>to the history of the OT universe up until some point in 1116<BR>
> <BR>
>I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if the GT<BR>
>and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For example,<BR>
>there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a population of<BR>
>millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas, but in the<BR>
>billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we believe?<BR>
 <BR>
For your own game you just chose whichever one you prefer (or change it to<BR>
anything else you like). If you're writing for official publication, you<BR>
either avoid the issue or ask your editor which one is to be considered<BR>
correct.<BR>
<BR>
And Peter Trevor replies to Matt:<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm ... S3 is circa 1105, BtC is circa 1116 ...<BR>
<BR>
_Spinward Marches_ may be 1105, but _Spinward Marches Campaign_ is 1110<BR>
and _Regency Sourcebook_ is 1117. And with very few exceptions they all<BR>
three agree. So if _SM_ says millions, odds are that _RS_ does to. _BtC_,<BR>
incidentally, is 1120. Any change between _RS_ and _BtC_ must have taken<BR>
place over three years. In some cases it is possible to come up with<BR>
something (it just annoys me that we need to), but a population increase<BR>
from millions to billions is IMO not one of them.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the<BR>
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class<BR>
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength<BR>
        to put down any military operations that threathen<BR>
        the peace of the Imperium."<BR>
<BR>
                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:04:32 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 26 May 2000 13:10:12 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On Sun, 21 May 2000 12:37:51 -0700, "Legate Legion"<BR>
><legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>    And, do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?  Because<BR>
>>god doesn't trust the English in the Dark.<BR>
><BR>
> And having watched too much BlackAdder, I might even agree with Him on this <BR>
>one...<BR>
><BR>
> ...or maybe that's just Rowen Atkinson (sp?) I wouldn't trust in the dark...<BR>
<BR>
Well of *course* you wouldn't trust *him* in the dark! Or in the light<BR>
for that matter. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get <BR>
 used to the idea."                  - Robert A. Heinlein<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:16:02 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: The will to win<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
I had written: <BR>
>>Are you sure this is correct? If it is, then I certainly don't blame the<BR>
>>Americans for chosing to use A-bombs over an invasion. However, I've been<BR>
>>told that at the end the only condition the Japanese held out for was that<BR>
>>the Emperor should be guaranteed immunity. If this is the case, then I do<BR>
>>consider it criminal to kill hundreds of thousands in order to be able to<BR>
>>punish one war criminal (_Especially_ in the light of the fact that in the<BR>
>>end they chose not to punish the Emperor).<BR>
> <BR>
>The "unconditional surrender" bit had been set as unchangeable policy<BR>
>*long* before. <BR>
<BR>
Yes, I've gathered that. I just don't agree that sticking to that policy<BR>
was worth the deaths of hundred of thousands of civilians. (Unless, as I<BR>
also said, there were more to it than that).<BR>
<BR>
>As I recall, they didn't offer the "all we ask is to keep the Emperor"<BR>
>until *after* Nagasaki. I think the other terms mentioned before were<BR>
>what was offered after *Hiroshima*, and at that they were not<BR>
>*official* at the time, just feelers from the peace faction.<BR>
 <BR>
Well, maybe you're right. I certainly have no firsthand knowledge (well, I<BR>
wouldn't have, would I? What I mean is that I don't have any first-class<BR>
second-hand knowledge) about it. All I do know is that I would not blame<BR>
the Allies for considering the 'terms' Doug listed unacceptable. But I would<BR>
blame them for finding the single term of holding the Emperor immune<BR>
unacceptable and considering the nuking of a city preferrable to giving in<BR>
on that one condition.<BR>
<BR>
If that was the way things actually went...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their<BR>
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"<BR>
                                (after Tom Lehrer)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:44:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<snip><BR>
> Since this model is more founded in real physics, it also has more<BR>
potential<BR>
> problems which you can find. For example, the Pi0 meson has an extremely<BR>
> short life, about 1e-16 sec. So to make it zap a ship before it decays<BR>
<BR>
1.9e-16 sec<BR>
<BR>
> requires extremely high velocities, and extremely high amounts of energy.<BR>
> You need a speed of something like Sqrt((10^32-1)/10^32))*c for a range of<BR>
> about 1 light-sec after the mesons are created, which is extremely close<BR>
to<BR>
> c.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm also not up on how two Pi0 beams could annihilate. Usually you need<BR>
some<BR>
> sort of balancing of some sort of numbers, one positive and one negative,<BR>
so<BR>
> that the sum becomes all zeroes, like a photon.<BR>
<BR>
Mesons have spin 0, Lepton number 0, Baryon number 0, and, in the case of Pi<BR>
0 mesons, a charge of 0. Everything they have adds up to 0, except<BR>
mass/energy. Like photons, Pi 0 mesons are their own anti-particle.<BR>
<BR>
However, Pi mesons *do* interact with the strong nuclear force. In fact they<BR>
are the are the transmitter particles of the strong force. Now, whether that<BR>
only applies to *charged* Pi mesons (Pi + & Pi -), or if it also includes<BR>
the neutral Pi 0 meson I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:28:48 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: [OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Cheng Tseng" <howard.anderson@psu.edu><BR>
<BR>
> >Without Magic, our carriers would have been caught at Midway and sunk.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> >More importantly, the Japanese fleet would have remained mostly intact.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm....Like it was at the end of Midway?<BR>
<BR>
As Midway demonstrated, Carriers were the Force projection of fleets, not<BR>
Battleships. After the historical outcome of Midway the Japanese fleet was<BR>
effectively defensive in nature.<BR>
<BR>
> >At that point, Japan would have been able to pressure the US for a<BR>
> >negotiated peace, they may have been able to do it, too, because at that<BR>
> >point, the Pacific became their wading pool, and the US was facing a war<BR>
> >in the Europe.<BR>
><BR>
> How?  The Japanese had NO ability to hold Midway, especially in the<BR>
presence<BR>
> of large, hostile forces.<BR>
<BR>
But if the US carriers had been sunk at Midway rather than the Japanese,<BR>
then what 'large, hostile forces' could the US have put into play before<BR>
mid-43 at the earliest? And with the Japanese carriers and pilots still<BR>
available, they would be much better placed to hold Midway and/or other<BR>
Pacific conquests.<BR>
<BR>
> Plus, Pearl Harbor created among the Americans an attitude which made a<BR>
> total war to the capitulation of one or the other unavoidable.<BR>
<BR>
A fair point. However, with the postulated crippling of the US Pacific Fleet<BR>
after a Japanese victory at Midway, and the consequent strengthening of the<BR>
Japanese Fleet, there would be little the US could accomplish with attitude<BR>
alone.<BR>
<BR>
> >They could have come back and done a better job on Pearl, at which point<BR>
> >the US would have had to run a pacific campaign out of the West Coast of<BR>
> >the US, rather long supply lines.<BR>
><BR>
> Against large numbers of hostile forces, AND pre-dug fortifications.<BR>
><BR>
> Doesn't seem too likely.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, it doesn't seem too likely that the US could have succesfully<BR>
prosecuted a Pacific war against large numbers of hostile forces, and<BR>
pre-dug fortifications, based on a long supply line back to the US West<BR>
Coast. <g><BR>
<BR>
Presuming you were refering to the postulated Japanese assault on Pearl:<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it doesn't seem likely. It didn't seem too likely at the Phillipines,<BR>
Malaya, Singapore, etc either...<BR>
<BR>
> >Also, the Japanese would have secured all the oil reserves of the Dutch<BR>
> >East Indes without any significant resistance from anyone(one oftheir<BR>
> >primary objectives in the Pacific). They could hav also pushed east<BR>
><BR>
> Question; how much of that oil got to Japan?  Or are you planning to stage<BR>
> the entire Combine Fleet out of Batavia?<BR>
<BR>
If Pearl could be denied as a Forward base for the US Submarines, either by<BR>
interdiction by ground based air from a Japanese held Midway, or by<BR>
Occupation, then their operating range wouldn't allow then to seriously<BR>
affect Japanese Oil convoys from the East Indies.<BR>
<BR>
> >towards the Middle East. Had they been able to suppor the Germans there,<BR>
> >the course of the european woar would have been quite<BR>
> >different...Germany DESPERATELY needed that oil.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, India was just a small pitance, and the fact that Germany never<BR>
> could achieve that is insignificant.<BR>
<BR>
I agree, Japan and Germany were effectively isolated by the Allied presence<BR>
in India and North Africa / Middle East. It would take a whole heap of other<BR>
what-if's to explain Japanese Oil shipments to Germany.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:37:26 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:08 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: hardly Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
><BR>
> >>    And, do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?<BR>
> Because<BR>
> >>god doesn't trust the English in the Dark.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > And having watched too much BlackAdder, I might even agree with Him on<BR>
> this<BR>
> >one...<BR>
><BR>
>     Nah, came from Sliders.<BR>
<BR>
You may have first heard it there, but it is an old quip of (IIRC) Oscar<BR>
Wilde.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:38:10 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Duchess Delphine<BR>
<BR>
Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW: is the duchess Delphine a dolphin, or is it just a name?<BR>
 <BR>
Duchess Delphine is a human. In addition to being Duchess of Mora she is<BR>
the Matriarch of Mora, which gives her a lot of personal clout. She is<BR>
also very old.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:49:27 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Danny Moody writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Imagine the planetary government separated its inhabitants into two (or more<BR>
>classes) - some (say 10%) considered 'citizens' and the rest not.  The gov't<BR>
>reports the census data as xxx,xxx number of 'citizens' and some Scout<BR>
>unfamiliar with the planet interprets it to mean xxx,xxx number of<BR>
>inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
That is actually the approach I'm taking with the writeup of fornice that I'm<BR>
working on. BtC claims Fornice has 85 million inhabitants. Earlier sources<BR>
says 20 to 24 billion. So I'm making the 85 million 'citizens' and the rest<BR>
'residents'.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately this sort of thing is unlikely to happen very often. Worlds pay<BR>
Imperial taxes based on their GWP and anyone involved in working out the taxes<BR>
due is liable to have a very shrewd idea of the size of the population. The<BR>
working population, anyway. A few slip-ups in communication between the<BR>
Imperial Revenue Service (or whatever it is called) and the Imperial Grand<BR>
Census can be explained, but too many would strain my willing suspension of<BR>
disbelief. So IMO it is best to keep such mistakes to a minimum.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:07:21 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
>That is actually the approach I'm taking with the writeup of fornice that I'm<BR>
>working on. BtC claims Fornice has 85 million inhabitants. Earlier sources<BR>
>says 20 to 24 billion. So I'm making the 85 million 'citizens' and the rest<BR>
>'residents'.<BR>
<BR>
 From the errata....<BR>
"Change the Population of Fornice to 20,000,000,000."<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:30:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
>   its at least canon that the 3I banned warbots after<BR>
the Dover Gabe<BR>
>   incident around 120-160 Imperial, when new TL13<BR>
warbots had some<BR>
>   'problems with their AI'. Each new techlevel saw<BR>
experiments with<BR>
>   AI to control weapon systems, most failed. e.g. the<BR>
late 3I had its<BR>
>   Kinunir incidents.<BR>
<BR>
I've just purchased GURPS: ROBOTS and it states that<BR>
any neural-net computer brain (which allows a robot<BR>
brain<BR>
to learn from  experience) of complexity 7+ may<BR>
spontaneously<BR>
become sentient. Roll 3D6 each year, on a 6 or less the<BR>
robot becomes sentient.<BR>
<BR>
It also states that at GTL 10 robots of this complexity<BR>
are<BR>
routinely built with safeguards. The trouble is that<BR>
with a<BR>
robot army you would be talking about 100s of 1000s of<BR>
Robots and even with safeguards Sod's law clearly<BR>
states<BR>
that some of them will go spontaneously self-aware.<BR>
<BR>
Not only are these robots heavily armed but some of<BR>
them<BR>
are bound to be equipped and programmed to do field<BR>
repairs<BR>
and its possible to remove the restrictions on a robot<BR>
from<BR>
the outside.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
PS: ObSF TV - Doctor Who: The Robots of Death.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:47:57 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
>  > That's the problem - the REALLY crazy ones are always later described<BR>
>>  by their neighbours as a "nice quiet young man".  And the truly<BR>
>>  dangerous and evil villains are the ones that look average and<BR>
>>  harmless.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Red<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn replied:<BR>
<BR>
>Hey, Blaelok was a really snappy dresser.<BR>
<BR>
Granted, Blaelok was a snappy dresser. Evil, but a snappy dresser. <BR>
He gets style points, but even after his demise the PCs are feeling <BR>
the effects.<BR>
<BR>
>  The really dangerous villans look and act like nice guys/gals -- <BR>
>until they screw you, that is.<BR>
<BR>
Well, yeah.  Or they don't even look 'nice', just nondescript, <BR>
boring, dull people that you'd hardly even notice...<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:53:00 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Tribes<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What's Tribes?<BR>
<BR>
A computer game.  Online only shoot 'em up.<BR>
So you only play other people, not computers.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine a battledress combat simulator where<BR>
you play Capture the Flag.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.planettribes.com/<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:49:27 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>>Hey, Blaelok was a really snappy dresser.  The really dangerous villans look<BR>
>>and act like nice guys/gals -- until they screw you, that is.<BR>
>><BR>
>>--<BR>
>>"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
>>killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
>>--<BR>
>>Tod Glenn<BR>
>>mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
>>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
Bill replied:<BR>
<BR>
>And he's dead....right?......RIGHT??<BR>
<BR>
Right.  But on Regina, dead is frequently as temporary as it is in a <BR>
Garcia Marquez novel.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:58:43 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
> We have to face it, if some people would have banned after<BR>
> the third personal insult, the ratio of signal-to-noise would have<BR>
> been much better in the last months.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. Such actions would merely have made things worse as the people<BR>
who were banned came back under pseudonyms and _actively_ tried to disrupt<BR>
the list.<BR>
<BR>
> As a Game Theorist, I would say that sometimes the mere<BR>
> *existence* of an enforcement mechanism changes things.<BR>
<BR>
The enforcement "mechanism" exists now, only it's not one that has any real<BR>
meaning.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who is banned can easily rejoin the list and damage it on purpose by<BR>
setting up a account at one of the many thousansds of free or anonymous<BR>
email servers.<BR>
<BR>
And I'd also say that the existence of an enforcement mechanism may change<BR>
things, but not neccessarily for the better.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:10:54 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
> Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> > > The environment here on the TML has been getting a bit<BR>
> > > hostile lately. I would like to propose a few rules that<BR>
> > > may help make it a less hostile place.<BR>
><BR>
> > What's the point, Peter ?<BR>
> > These rules can't be enforced.<BR>
><BR>
> It's not _my_ list so I don't have the right to create<BR>
> enforceable rules. Therefor any rules I propose are<BR>
> optional until adopted by the list owner, list moderator,<BR>
> or the majority of the list with the acquiescence of the<BR>
> owner, moderator, or both.<BR>
><BR>
> If the rules I proposed were adopted than (IMHO) the list<BR>
> would be a better place and that's my point.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I accept that as your opinion, but IMO it wouldn't make any difference,<BR>
because there is no real means of enforcing these rules.<BR>
<BR>
The _only _ way to enforce the rules is to have a fully moderated list,<BR>
and I don't think anyone has enough time to do that.<BR>
<BR>
And having unenforceable rules is both pointless and encourages people to<BR>
flaunt them on purpose. Heck, if we had such rules there would be people who<BR>
would see if they could deliberately provoke others into being thrown off<BR>
list. A simple means of doing so would be to send a set of highly insulting<BR>
emails off-list with the Reply-To field set to the TML.<BR>
<BR>
This would then encourage all sorts of arguments about "but I was framed"<BR>
and "no, you  forged those emails, etc, etc, and we'd be no better off.<BR>
<BR>
At least most of the arguments we have now are about real world things, not<BR>
the list itself, and some of them can be very educational.<BR>
<BR>
Not having rules means people have to take individual responsibility for<BR>
continuing any discussion themselves.<BR>
<BR>
The only way to deal with these things is for people to show enough personal<BR>
restraint not to reply to people who annoy them in kind, or to not reply to<BR>
hem at all if you can't do that, at least not on list. (BTW, I'm not<BR>
claiming I'm good at this)<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:13:27 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Visual Basic project<BR>
<BR>
 It's a Classic Traveller character generator for Book 1.<BR>
> My professor had never heard of RPG's before, but she<BR>
> loved it...and gave me an "A".<BR>
<BR>
So where's the URL ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:48:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>>Jump from Earth orbit to half a<BR>
> parsec out, and you've gained potential energy equivalent to a velocity<BR>
> of almost 40 km/sec! Solely due to moving that much higher up in Sol's<BR>
> gravity well. <<<<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
><BR>
>>>>One way to handle this would be to convert the PE into *directed* KE.<BR>
> Porting in, he'd get a velocity of 40 km/sec, same as if he'd let<BR>
> gravity drag him to the same location (which would take millenia).<BR>
><BR>
>>>So porting out, he'd wind up moving away from the star at the same speed.<BR>
><BR>
> Now that I think about it, this makes more sense than Niven's idea of<BR>
> "PE turns to heat when you port lower".<<<<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks Leonard. I thought I had read Niven right, but don't have the math.<BR>
><BR>
> Niven says he feels it would end up as heat because the direction of the KE<BR>
> would be randomized, and randomized KE=heat.<BR>
<BR>
Until I did the stuff above last night, I'd have thought so to. But<BR>
then I remembered that potential energy *must* be a vector in this<BR>
case, because of the way it interacts with velocity. Or alternatively<BR>
because it's due to the gravity field which is *also* a vector. <BR>
<BR>
It's just not obvious unless you do the "down" calc before the "up"<BR>
calc. I also suspect that Niven took one look at the "porting up gives<BR>
you an upward velocity" result (if he ever got that far) and went "Nah!<BR>
That *can't* be right!"<BR>
<BR>
> Also, doesn't the fact that teleportation obeys Conservation of Momentum and<BR>
> Energy imply that it is bound by relativity as well (and therefore limited<BR>
> to less than lightspeed)? I lack the math and physics to figure that out<BR>
> myself.<BR>
<BR>
That's a very insightful question and certainly deserves an answer.<BR>
Next question?<BR>
<BR>
(in other words, damned if I know!)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:54:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Regeina, Sector Capital?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW: is the duchess Delphine a dolphin, or is it just a name?<BR>
<BR>
Consider that the heir to the throne of France was the Dauphin (which<BR>
also means "dolphin")<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:18:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> No it won't. You forgot that he's *gained* an enormous amount of<BR>
>> potential energy from *somewhere*. Jump from Earth orbit to half a<BR>
>> parsec out, and you've gained potential energy equivalent to a velocity<BR>
>> of almost 40 km/sec! Solely due to moving that much higher up in Sol's<BR>
>> gravity well. <BR>
><BR>
> You are correct according to the rules as written which<BR>
> state "Changes in altitude (actually all movement to locations<BR>
> of differing gravitational potential) will result in potential<BR>
> energy changes manifesting themselves as changes in body temperature."<BR>
> [MT PM p 100]<BR>
><BR>
> I misunderstood the generality of the rules and thought it was<BR>
> only on planets that potential energy became heat energy.<BR>
><BR>
>> Jump in the opposite direction and you *lose* that much potential<BR>
>> energy. Which, if it appeared as heat would vaporize you. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> One way to handle this would be to convert the PE into *directed* KE.<BR>
>> Porting in, he'd get a velocity of 40 km/sec, same as if he'd let<BR>
>> gravity drag him to the same location (which would take millenia). <BR>
><BR>
>> So porting out, he'd wind up moving away from the star at the same speed.<BR>
>> Now that I think about it, this makes more sense than Niven's idea of<BR>
>> "PE turns to heat when you port lower".<BR>
><BR>
> Yes it does but "PE turns to heat when you port lower" is Traveller<BR>
> canon.<BR>
><BR>
> For a good example of Teleportation where objects potential<BR>
> energy is converted to velocity see Vernor Vinge's 'The Witling'.<BR>
> On this planet ordinary citizens can Teleport themselves a<BR>
> only a few Km because of velocity changes or they can teleport<BR>
> themselves to a spot in the opposite hemisphere with the same<BR>
> potential energy (from 45 North to 45 south for instance). Trained<BR>
> soldiers can teleport in pebbles from thousands of klicks away<BR>
> like bullets. The most talented Teleporters (400 out of many millions)<BR>
> can teleport in multiple ton pieces of one of the planets moons<BR>
> with multiple kilo ton forces.<BR>
><BR>
> Energy becomes heat is probably better for game balance than<BR>
> energy becomes speed. If energy becomes speed than kamikaze<BR>
> Zhodani teleporters could damage Imperial capital ships by<BR>
> teleporting onto them off of Zhodani ships traveling at high<BR>
> enough speed.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it doesn't really matter. The energy release is the *same*<BR>
either way. So if a Zhodani commando ports into a ship travelling at<BR>
high speed relative to his started point you'll get a major explosion<BR>
either way. <BR>
<BR>
Ditto for porting down to a planet from a long ways off. The velocity<BR>
turns into heat *anyway* as soon as he hits the ground (or the water or<BR>
the air).<BR>
<BR>
The *only* difference is that "PE converts to heat" can kill you more<BR>
easily from the temp change due to *small* changes in altitude. On the<BR>
other hand, to get that much of a temp change, the altitude change is<BR>
enough that with the velocity model, you'll be slammed into the ground<BR>
hard enough to do severe damage (basicly, you'd arrive with the save<BR>
velocity you'd have had if you'd *fallen* thne same distance. Ouch!).<BR>
<BR>
> Zhodani fleet jumps in at 300 kps. 100 kilo Zhodani teleporter<BR>
> teleports to the bridge of Imperial Tigress. Tigress is hit by<BR>
> the internal equivalent of a one kiloton nuke [1]. Of course given<BR>
> an well armored ship this may be survivable.<BR>
  <BR>
> [1] Calculation uses the rule of thumb that the kinetic energy <BR>
> of an object traveling at 3 kps = an equal mass of TNT <BR>
> (300/3) ^ 2 x 0.1 ton (100 kilos mass) = 1,000 tons equivalent.<BR>
<BR>
So? That's what happens with *either* set of rules. The heat bit only<BR>
applies to changes in *potential* energy. That is, moving up or down in<BR>
a gravity well. <BR>
<BR>
Even then, if the velocity version says that you arrive at a velocity<BR>
of 9 km/sec, then the "heat" version merely has your individual<BR>
molecules moving at 9 km/sec in *random* directions (so you go off like<BR>
a bomb *before* you hit anything). This is a difference that doesn't<BR>
matter much except for *very* small altitude changes.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2513<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 22:12:42 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 22:12:07 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA55184;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 22:11:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 22:11:17 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA55035<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 22:11:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:11:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005270211.WAA55035@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2513<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2514</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/26/00 8:42:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 26 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2514<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
Re: messoncannons<BR>
Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
RE: Regeina, Sector Capital?<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina ?<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: [OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
Jump physics (Long)<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:26:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Alas, as noted elsewhere, nuclear dampers affect the *weak* nuclear<BR>
>> force. If I remember correctly, meson decay involves the *strong*<BR>
>> nuclear force. <BR>
><BR>
> Hm...they do?  I seem to recall them modifying the strong force.  In fact, <BR>
> they have to modify the strong force, since many of the interactions they <BR>
> modify (such as fusion) don't involve the weak force.<BR>
<BR>
Check again, last time we discussed dampers the folks in the science<BR>
biz said fusion *did* involve the weak force.<BR>
<BR>
> In any case, the  behavior of nuclear dampers as written violates<BR>
> conservation of energy (a nuclear damper strengthens or weakens<BR>
> nuclear forces, which will reduce or increase the rest mass of nuclei<BR>
> within the area.<BR>
<BR>
So? The mass loss can be handled by emission of photons. The mass gain<BR>
may come from the field itself, or at the cost of some energy component<BR>
of the atom.<BR>
<BR>
> It will also make some normally stable elements radioactive. <BR>
<BR>
That's not a problem, that's an opportunity. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:56:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT:Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson schrieb:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > Well, just one thing: Fire storms were not rare at all in Germany<BR>
>> > diuring the second half of WWII, from what my grandmothers told me. Or<BR>
>> > the history books. Most cities were *literally* large charred areas, not<BR>
>> > cities any more.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sorry, but "firestorm" has a specific meaning, and they only occured a<BR>
>> few times. Firestorms are *huge* conflagrations that get large enough<BR>
>> and intense enough to generate their own wind. Once that happens you<BR>
>> don't get "charred" areas. You get nothing but fine ash, and there is<BR>
>> *nothing* combustible left. And most glas and stone are melted into slag.<BR>
><BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Don't read too much into my words. It's a foreign language for me. By<BR>
> "literally charred" I mean there was nothing left except something that<BR>
> might be identified as ruins- with a bit good will and imagination.<BR>
> But it shouldn't be so hard to find pictures of Hamburg, Frankfurt,<BR>
> Dresden, Berlin... or Coventry, Rotterdam, and many other European<BR>
> cities after extensive "strategic bombing".<BR>
><BR>
> And eye witness reports I read and saw at TV always mention that<BR>
> during/after the "bomber nights", the fire generated its own wind.<BR>
> Additionally, my own grandmother told me that when Kassel was bombed in<BR>
> 1943, she saw the shine of the fire in her home village; that is about<BR>
> eighty kilometers away from Kassel. So I this does not sound like a few<BR>
> isolated burning buildings.<BR>
<BR>
> So to end this (for me), these firestorm-causing bombings of civilian<BR>
> population, for whatever reason they were applied, were far from being<BR>
> "rare". (Only in so much as there was a limited number of cities to<BR>
> target on both sides, of course.) <BR>
<BR>
The point I'm trying to make is that the definition of "firestorm" is<BR>
such that very few occured during the war. The winds we are talking<BR>
about are *hurricane* force. And you can *hear* a firestorm 40km or<BR>
more away. The roar has been described as like a blast furnace or some<BR>
sort of huge animal. Also, anyone in bomb shelters will die because the<BR>
fire consumes all the oxygen above them, and lower the pressure enough<BR>
to kill them.<BR>
<BR>
It takes a lot to start a firestorm in a city without massive use of<BR>
incendiaries, or a nuclear weapon. It's more than "merely" a city<BR>
consuming fire. It's like the difference between a major storm front<BR>
and a hurricane or typhoon. Sure, it's just "more of the same". But<BR>
it's *so much* more that theres a *qualitative* difference.<BR>
<BR>
This is *not* an attempt to downplay the destruction that occured. Just<BR>
to explain that bad as they were, the *weren't* firestorms.<BR>
<BR>
Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo and one or two other German cities are the only<BR>
recorded firestorms.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:46:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Traveller:  Toxins and allergistic reactions from brushing against alien <BR>
> flora. Scouts better be prepared for anaphlactic shock. Oh, and some of <BR>
> those tainted atmospheres...spores from native plants?<BR>
<BR>
I recall an SF story like that. The planet had an incredible variety of<BR>
fungi. The only problem was that Terran immune systems weren't terribly<BR>
effective against them. <BR>
<BR>
Thus, inhale a single spore and within hours you are dead because your<BR>
lungs are full of fungus, and it's eating them away for food. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:30:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Try making a fission bomb with an *obscene* yield as *all* <BR>
>> the atoms in<BR>
>> it fission at the same time. Without any explosives. <BR>
><BR>
> Just the thing for those man-portable battlefield nukes.  Really big yield <BR>
> from a very sub-critical mass.<BR>
<BR>
But you have to set the time of detonation when you make them. Maybe a<BR>
nuke damper will delay it, but as they get near "expiration date" I'd<BR>
get *real* worried about damper failures. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, they wouldn't trip a radiation detector unit they went off. Think<BR>
about it... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:39:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>True enough. But Satanist *accept* Christian doctrine. They merely<BR>
>>choose to follow Satan rather than God. That's the *only* difference.<BR>
><BR>
> Let's not get into "doctrine" here, which requires a formal hierarchy.<BR>
> Doctrine and heterodoxy cannot exist without a formal hierarchy. Let's stick<BR>
> to the basics. Do Satanists believe in Jesus Christ? Maybe. Lots of people,<BR>
> from atheist archeologists to paranoid schizophrenics believe that Jesus<BR>
> Christ exists. Does this make them Christians? No. Do Satanists believe in<BR>
> the saving grace of Christ? I find it difficult to believe that one who<BR>
> believed in the saving grace of Christ could believe in the primacy of<BR>
> Satan.                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      <BR>
  ^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
>>It's not even necessary to believe Satan is supreme.<BR>
><BR>
> I know that, which is why I consciously avoided saying that Satanists<BR>
> believe in the supremacy of Satan.<BR>
<BR>
Oh? Check the quote above. <BR>
<BR>
>>Also, as I noted, not all Satanists *do* believe that Satan is supreme.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, I know that. I consciously avoided using the word supremacy. Primacy<BR>
> was intended to indicate merely that he is to be chosen over God as the<BR>
> object of worship.<BR>
<BR>
Well, then you need to define your terms before using them, since<BR>
that's *not* what folks are going to think of when they read that word.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:16:16 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The Normans ended up in Sicily after being hired as mercenaries by the<BR>
> Kingdom of Naples. To cut a long story short, they liked it and stayed.<BR>
<BR>
Six degrees of Ob. Trav.:<BR>
<BR>
Those Normans did get around.  Especially, it seems,<BR>
mercenary cavalry from there.  IMHO, the most<BR>
interesting of these was Robert Guiscard (The Weasel,<BR>
sometimes called The Wary).<BR>
<BR>
See http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/11028.html<BR>
for a blessedly breif overview.<BR>
<BR>
The Roger I believe Ian is referring to was Guiscard's<BR>
youngest son.  Robert's eldest son was Bohemond,<BR>
who became later became Bohemond of Antioch.<BR>
Robert left his holdings to Roger, but Bohemond<BR>
went to war with Roger until he agreed to a split.<BR>
Trace the family descendents from there and you'll<BR>
find several Kings of England and France.<BR>
<BR>
Robert and his several brothers shared a name, of<BR>
course: de Hauteville. Their father's name:  Tancred.<BR>
<BR>
Non-canonical:<BR>
Judge's Guild Ley Sector has a system called Tancred.<BR>
Judge's Guild Tancred Adventure details the city Hauteville.<BR>
It is a mercernary adventure.<BR>
<BR>
Canonical:<BR>
Baron Tancred von Harrer is nephew to Count Blain Tukera<BR>
and his wife, Duchess Margaret (2nd Cousin of Strephon)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:24:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> > Are you thinking of Muons?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Muon is short for "Mu Meson"<BR>
><BR>
> Which is a misnomer, as Muons and Taons aren't mesons.  They're leptons (as <BR>
> are electrons and neutrinos).<BR>
<BR>
By *current* terminology you are correct. But give that the term meson<BR>
was invented for the Muon, things are a bit more complex.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:19:43 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
<BR>
GRIP is an acronym also. It stands for Generic Roleplaying for Internet<BR>
Players.<BR>
GURPS is Generic Universal RolePlaying System.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, May 26, 2000 4:54 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP Traveller URL<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 4:27 AM, stevedaniels@portcaddo.com issued<BR>
>forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> I want to get interested in their software, but then I<BR>
>> look at the screenshots and suddenly I want to play<BR>
>> Tribes.  ;-)<BR>
>><BR>
>> bloo<BR>
><BR>
>What's Tribes?<BR>
><BR>
>BTW, doesn't "GRIP" sound an awful lot like "GURPS" to you?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:26:14 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
> > > I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if<BR>
> > > the GT and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For<BR>
> > > example, there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a<BR>
> > > population of millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas,<BR>
> > > but in the billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we<BR>
> > > believe?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hmmm ... S3 is circa 1105, BtC is circa 1116 ...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (a)  At some point between 1105 and 1116 there was a global  orgy<BR>
> >      without birth control.  This has resulted in a sizeable baby<BR>
> >      boom?<BR>
><BR>
> So every woman had about 1,000 children each? Gee, I'm glad<BR>
> I don't have to hear THEIR labor stories... (Damn, those fertility<BR>
> drugs are powerful!)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (b)  I've always taken  S3  (and  similar  sources)  to  be  IISS<BR>
> >      records and open to error.  IIRC there was  an  introductory<BR>
> >      adventure (Adventure 0)  which  was  based  around  a  group<BR>
> >      resurveying worlds in the Spinward Marches to help clear  up<BR>
> >      errors and ommissions  from  IGS-2.  Thus  S3  is  in  error<BR>
> >      (something which can sometimes trip up the complacant PC).<BR>
><BR>
> A thousand-fold error!?! Yikes!<BR>
<BR>
So there was a one zero missing in the data transmited to the IISS.<BR>
This sort of error is quite common.<BR>
<BR>
Like when I recieved 200 wire terminators instead of 2000 when I ordered<BR>
them in the Air Force.<BR>
<BR>
In this case the stores clerk had decided _I_ had made an error, and<BR>
couldn't possiby<BR>
have meant 2000. In fact we were about to do two updates that required<BR>
re-wiring two aircraft<BR>
each of which had more than a thousand wires of this thickness, and each<BR>
wire needed two terminators, one on each end. So we needed _more_ than 2000,<BR>
but 200o was the largest amount I could sign for at my rank.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine the editor, back in Core "Nah, that can't be right, that palce is a<BR>
small hole, I was there basck in '52, we'll just adjust it back down."<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, how long did it take us to go from milions to billions ?<BR>
And how long ago was the Second Survey ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:32:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Regeina, Sector Capital?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Graf Zahl<BR>
> aka Karsten Gorling<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, 27 May 2000 04:55<BR>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
> Subject: Regeina, Sector Capital?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Perhaps we have different GT:BTC, but in my, Regina is Subsector<BR>
> Capital of the Subsector Regina and Mora is still the capital of<BR>
> the domain.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW: is the duchess Delphine a dolphin, or is it just a name?<BR>
<BR>
You bounder ! Insinuating that Her Grace is a dolphin !<BR>
<BR>
Her Grace's name, if you must know, derives from the flower genus<BR>
delphinium, like "Daisy" or "Rose", not from those aquatic clowns who insist<BR>
on spraying water on perfectly good canapes!<BR>
<BR>
The Honourable Francis Graham Wiliams III<BR>
Member of Court, Mora.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:38:28 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina ?<BR>
<BR>
At 11:12 AM 5/26/00 +0100, Ewan wrote:<BR>
>I was reading GT:BTC last night, and the Regina entry said that is was<BR>
>sector capital. I always thought Mora was sector capital. Did I miss<BR>
>something ? or is this a GURPS change ?<BR>
I was just looking at this, and I can't find anywhere in the description on <BR>
page 81 that it says anything about sector capital.  The header reads:<BR>
1910 Regina (Imperial Subsector Capital)<BR>
<BR>
Of course, I don't find any reference to Mora being anything but the Domain <BR>
capital.<BR>
<BR>
Could you point out the page where you found this reference, or did you <BR>
mis-read the entry, or did I mis-read it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson                           nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.<BR>
Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair,<BR>
And all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually <BR>
deserve them?<BR>
So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the <BR>
universe.<BR>
                                      -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:27:09 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
At 11:17 AM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> > Loren has kept silent on the subject, but until he says anything to the<BR>
> > contrary, I'm going to believe that the history of the GT universe is<BR>
> > identical to the history of the OT universe up until some point in 1116<BR>
> > and that all changes in the GT history flows from a single divergence<BR>
> > point (For one thing, that would be so much more elegant than multiple<BR>
> > differences, and for another, it is a classic tradition of alternate<BR>
> > world fiction). As such, all CT and T4 material and all historical<BR>
> > information in MT and TNE material is, IMO, part of the GT canon.<BR>
><BR>
>I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if the GT<BR>
>and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For example,<BR>
>there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a population of<BR>
>millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas, but in the<BR>
>billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we believe?<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
You need to get the extensive errata for BTC.  It has a lot of corrections <BR>
to planetary data.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
      nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
"The avalanche has already started.<BR>
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:22:30 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>----- Original Message -----<BR>
>From: "Cheng Tseng" <howard.anderson@psu.edu><BR>
><BR>
>> >Without Magic, our carriers would have been caught at Midway and sunk.<BR>
><BR>
><snip><BR>
><BR>
>> >More importantly, the Japanese fleet would have remained mostly intact.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Hmmm....Like it was at the end of Midway?<BR>
><BR>
>As Midway demonstrated, Carriers were the Force projection of fleets, not<BR>
>Battleships. After the historical outcome of Midway the Japanese fleet was<BR>
>effectively defensive in nature.<BR>
<BR>
Eh...The Japanese did not think so, at least operationally.  <BR>
<BR>
>> >At that point, Japan would have been able to pressure the US for a<BR>
>> >negotiated peace, they may have been able to do it, too, because at that<BR>
>> >point, the Pacific became their wading pool, and the US was facing a war<BR>
>> >in the Europe.<BR>
>><BR>
>> How?  The Japanese had NO ability to hold Midway, especially in the<BR>
>presence<BR>
>> of large, hostile forces.<BR>
><BR>
>But if the US carriers had been sunk at Midway rather than the Japanese,<BR>
<BR>
The US would have lost about THREE carriers, out of how many?<BR>
<BR>
>then what 'large, hostile forces' could the US have put into play before<BR>
>mid-43 at the earliest? And with the Japanese carriers and pilots still<BR>
<BR>
B-17 raids on Midway, followed by P-38s.  Submarines to interdict the supply<BR>
chain, along with cruisers and destroyers to support them.  More US<BR>
carriers, coming in from the West Coast.<BR>
<BR>
And this is against a nation whose logistical network leaves much to be desired.<BR>
<BR>
>available, they would be much better placed to hold Midway and/or other<BR>
>Pacific conquests.<BR>
<BR>
How?  Logistics, along with location, would have argued otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
The Japanese seem to have some inkling of the difficulties involved in using<BR>
Midway as an offensive base.  Certainly, few people were entertaining the<BR>
idea of more then that.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> Plus, Pearl Harbor created among the Americans an attitude which made a<BR>
>> total war to the capitulation of one or the other unavoidable.<BR>
><BR>
>A fair point. However, with the postulated crippling of the US Pacific Fleet<BR>
>after a Japanese victory at Midway, and the consequent strengthening of the<BR>
>Japanese Fleet, there would be little the US could accomplish with attitude<BR>
>alone.<BR>
<BR>
"Such was the scale of American industrial power that if during the Pearl<BR>
Harbor attack the Imperial Navy had been able to sink every major unit of<BR>
the entire U.S. Navy and then complete its own construction program without<BR>
losing a single major unit, by mid-1944 it would still not have been able to<BR>
put to sea a fleet equal to the one the Americans could have assembled from<BR>
in the intervening thirty months."<BR>
<BR>
H.P. Willmott in _The Barrier and the Javelin_.<BR>
<BR>
And since this is six months after Midway, the starting condition has<BR>
shifted to a worse position for the Japanese.<BR>
<BR>
Somebody has even done a webpage detailing the exact scenario you described,<BR>
and the Japanese STILL gets runned-over by the US.  I'll post the address<BR>
when I find it.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> >They could have come back and done a better job on Pearl, at which point<BR>
>> >the US would have had to run a pacific campaign out of the West Coast of<BR>
>> >the US, rather long supply lines.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Against large numbers of hostile forces, AND pre-dug fortifications.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Doesn't seem too likely.<BR>
><BR>
>Agreed, it doesn't seem too likely that the US could have succesfully<BR>
>prosecuted a Pacific war against large numbers of hostile forces, and<BR>
>pre-dug fortifications, based on a long supply line back to the US West<BR>
>Coast. <g><BR>
<BR>
And the Japanese?  It is infinitely simpler for the US to checkmate the<BR>
Japanese then anywhere near the other way around.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Presuming you were refering to the postulated Japanese assault on Pearl:<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, it doesn't seem likely. It didn't seem too likely at the Phillipines,<BR>
>Malaya, Singapore, etc either...<BR>
<BR>
Well, if we are playing the what-if game, let's put it this way:<BR>
<BR>
You either can go with the historical path (Launch invasion of the Southern<BR>
Resource Area, and conduct a fast strike against Pearl Harbor.), or you can<BR>
launch an invasion of Hawaii and ignore the entire purpose of you launching<BR>
into the war, i.e. securing the natural resources.  Furthermore, since<BR>
Hawaii is a lot better defended then the Netherland East Indies is, you will<BR>
face a really pissed-off enemy who can do serious harm to your assault<BR>
force, with their powerful assets IN RANGE of some really choice targets.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm....<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> >Also, the Japanese would have secured all the oil reserves of the Dutch<BR>
>> >East Indes without any significant resistance from anyone(one oftheir<BR>
>> >primary objectives in the Pacific). They could hav also pushed east<BR>
>><BR>
>> Question; how much of that oil got to Japan?  Or are you planning to stage<BR>
>> the entire Combine Fleet out of Batavia?<BR>
><BR>
>If Pearl could be denied as a Forward base for the US Submarines, either by<BR>
>interdiction by ground based air from a Japanese held Midway, or by<BR>
>Occupation, then their operating range wouldn't allow then to seriously<BR>
>affect Japanese Oil convoys from the East Indies.<BR>
<BR>
Australia, anybody?<BR>
<BR>
And historical, the tanker fleet possessed by the Japanese stay at about the<BR>
same level during 1942 (The first year the Americans tried to interdict<BR>
them.), yet the amount of oil imported dropped, partly because they were not<BR>
being used efficiently, and partly because 90% of the tanker fleet was being<BR>
used by the IJN.  Does that tell you something?<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> >towards the Middle East. Had they been able to suppor the Germans there,<BR>
>> >the course of the european woar would have been quite<BR>
>> >different...Germany DESPERATELY needed that oil.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Of course, India was just a small pitance, and the fact that Germany never<BR>
>> could achieve that is insignificant.<BR>
><BR>
>I agree, Japan and Germany were effectively isolated by the Allied presence<BR>
>in India and North Africa / Middle East. It would take a whole heap of other<BR>
>what-if's to explain Japanese Oil shipments to Germany.<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:43:12 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
<BR>
I was pondering moving near-C rocks the other day. As any discussion of<BR>
relativity will tell you, as you approach the speed of light, your mass will<BR>
go up. My first reaction was that this would prevent a jump at relativistic<BR>
speeds. But with a mental hand slap, I remembered--jump is not canonically<BR>
limited by mass, but by displacement.<BR>
<BR>
This struck me as counter-intuitive. What but gravity restricts ships to 100<BR>
diameters? Plus, there's canonical evidence that gravity is important: AM6<BR>
notes that "the zero-G environment of the asteroid belt was exactly what was<BR>
required before the space-rending effects of jump drive could even be seen."<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, jump drives in ship design are based on volume, not mass, and mass is<BR>
never given as a limiting factor in calculating the safe distance from a<BR>
given body, just its volume.<BR>
<BR>
This leads to some interesting results.<BR>
<BR>
If Beowulf Schaeffer had a jump drive instead of an Outsider hyperdrive in<BR>
"Neutron Star," he could push the panic button and escape at any moment,<BR>
provided he was 1000 miles from the neutron star (Niven gives the diameter<BR>
of BVS-1 as 10 miles.) If Bey has high enough engineering skill, he can<BR>
attempt to jump up to 100 miles from the star.<BR>
<BR>
It gets even weirder when you consider black holes. A black hole has *no*<BR>
volume[1], so it should theoretically be possible to jump away from one even<BR>
*inside* the event horizon. (The Jumpspace Institute is taking volunteers<BR>
for this mission. Please line up to the right and fill out the names of your<BR>
next of kin.)<BR>
<BR>
Right away, I can see two possible handwaves:<BR>
<BR>
The Handwavian Exclusion Principle (named after Hans du Vague, the noted<BR>
physicist): Jumpspace is configured so that at some level, it is not<BR>
possible for a massive object in jumpspace to be both within jumpspace and<BR>
near another massive object in real space, possibly due to bizarre quantum<BR>
reactions--perhaps even the mysterious handwavions. When you get too close,<BR>
you precipate into real space.<BR>
<BR>
Objections: More massive objects should still have higher 'particle<BR>
densities,'--they, and the space around them, will have more atoms--leaving<BR>
us with essentially the same problem, i.e. mass not volume should be the<BR>
limiting factor.<BR>
<BR>
The other handwave is the Handwavian Radius. Essentially, a jump is safe<BR>
whenever the gravitational attraction is less than .000025 G (the<BR>
gravitational attraction of a planet of Earth density at 100 diameters.)<BR>
Jumps are possible up to .0025 G (the ten diameter limit.)<BR>
<BR>
Objections: Jump drives will now function based on mass, not volume. One<BR>
could interpolate the figures based on the 1dT=10 tonnes of mass rule from<BR>
FFS1. Of course, this will involve redesigning all the existing ships, but<BR>
this is far from the first time that's happened![2] Also, the drives will<BR>
have to be mounted far enough from the center of mass to be beyond the 10<BR>
diameters limit.<BR>
<BR>
CT and HG had no mass. MT had mass as window dressing--it didn't effect<BR>
thrust or jump. FFS1 finally gave us mass based thrust. Is now the time to<BR>
proclaim the revolution? Should jump be effected by mass, or can we cruise<BR>
black holes with impunity?<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
[1] Britannica.com: "The crushing weight of constituent matter falling in<BR>
from all sides compresses the dying star to a point of zero volume and<BR>
infinite density called the singularity."<BR>
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/6/0,5716,15686+1+15483,00.html<BR>
<BR>
[2]CT to HG, HG to MT, MT to FFS1, FFS1 to FFS2; all versions to GT. I don't<BR>
know enough about HG (1) to say whether it recquired complete redesigns.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:43:19 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com  writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>One way to handle this would be to convert the PE into *directed* KE.<BR>
>> >Porting in, he'd get a velocity of 40 km/sec, same as if he'd let<BR>
>> >gravity drag him to the same location (which would take millenia).<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>So porting out, he'd wind up moving away from the star at the same speed.<BR>
><BR>
> >>Now that I think about it, this makes more sense than Niven's idea of<BR>
> >>"PE turns to heat when you port lower".<<<<BR>
><BR>
>> Thanks Leonard. I thought I had read Niven right, but don't have the<BR>
math.<BR>
><BR>
> >Niven says he feels it would end up as heat because the direction of the<BR>
KE<BR>
> >would be randomized, and randomized KE=heat.<BR>
<BR>
>Until I did the stuff above last night, I'd have thought so to. But<BR>
>then I remembered that potential energy *must* be a vector in this<BR>
>case, because of the way it interacts with velocity. Or alternatively<BR>
>because it's due to the gravity field which is *also* a vector.<BR>
<BR>
Wow, I managed to follow that too. It does seem obvious that the PE must be<BR>
vectored, because of the grav field<BR>
<BR>
So despite what the guys on "Car Talk" say, you can get your degree in<BR>
literature and not be a complete idiot :)<BR>
<BR>
> >Also, doesn't the fact that teleportation obeys Conservation of Momentum<BR>
and<BR>
> >Energy imply that it is bound by relativity as well (and therefore<BR>
limited<BR>
> >to less than lightspeed)? I lack the math and physics to figure that out<BR>
> >myself.<BR>
<BR>
>That's a very insightful question and certainly deserves an answer.<BR>
>Next question?<BR>
<BR>
>(in other words, damned if I know!)<BR>
<BR>
It does seem like there should be something there, but my weak grasp of<BR>
relativity can't give me a place to lock onto it...I keep thinking of<BR>
Einstein's elevator thought experiment. Doesn't the inability to determine<BR>
the difference between acceleration and acceleration due to gravity come in<BR>
here somewhere? (I dunno, you tell me :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2514<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 23:42:54 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 May 2000 23:42:07 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id XAA58775;<BR>
	Fri, 26 May 2000 23:41:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 26 May 2000 23:41:21 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id XAA58734<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 23:41:21 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:41:21 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005270341.XAA58734@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2514<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2515</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/27/00 5:18:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2515<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
Vargr physiology<BR>
Re: TJump physics<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: Visual Basic project<BR>
Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
RE: Visual Basic project<BR>
Re: [OT} RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
Judges Guild lives<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
Re: Judges Guild lives<BR>
Re: Judges Guild lives<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: [OT] Tribes<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
Tribes (Was: GRIP Traveller URL)<BR>
Base Codes<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
Re : Meson guns<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:03:21 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A small number of alternative (not commonly used) technologies are<BR>
> presented in FF&S2. Most of them are drive systems (solar sails, exotic<BR>
> rockets, etc).<BR>
><BR>
> What other technologies are feasible, interesting, published in other SF<BR>
> sources, and/or possible?<BR>
><BR>
> I am trying to make a list of different oddball technologies that might<BR>
> be used by aliens (or humaniti cultures), but the current material won't<BR>
> take me very far.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Biotech...<BR>
Farscape and eXistenZ for diferent views of macro and consumer level tech...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:58:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
A discussion in rec.arts.sf.science regarding improved humans got into<BR>
discussing leg structure. And one of the things pointed out made me<BR>
realize that Vargr have a *serious* problem (and an advantage that goes<BR>
with it).<BR>
<BR>
Our legs "lock" enabling us to stand without using any effort except<BR>
that required for balance. This *requires* that the leg bones line up<BR>
vertically. <BR>
<BR>
Vargr legs have those bends. In fact, given various illos, Vargr legs<BR>
*can't* be straightened out. That means that they can't stand for long<BR>
periods. Try standing with your knees *bent* for any length of time. <BR>
<BR>
That's the disadavantage. <BR>
<BR>
The advantage is that *because* of that permanent bend, tendons from<BR>
the upper leg can attach partway down the lower leg, and vice versa.<BR>
That gives their leg muscles many *times* the leverage human leg<BR>
muscles have.<BR>
<BR>
Do *not* get where a Vargr can kick you! Or try to beat him at the leg<BR>
press or at running.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:39:56 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph Kimball" <jekimball@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TJump physics<BR>
<BR>
Yes, if we continue to go with volume as the limiting factor of Jumpspace<BR>
entry, you could be inside the event horizon and still jump *as long as you<BR>
ignore the volume of the stuff falling into that black hole*.  If you<BR>
include the volume of the stuff falling into the black hole, which would be<BR>
many times the diameter of the event horizon, you will be a fair ways off<BR>
before you can Jump.  The accretion disk is much higher in density than your<BR>
typical interplanetary particles (though less dense than a planet).<BR>
- - Joseph<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- ><BR>
> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:43:12 -0400<BR>
> From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
> Subject: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
> It gets even weirder when you consider black holes. A black hole has *no*<BR>
> volume[1], so it should theoretically be possible to jump away from one<BR>
even<BR>
> *inside* the event horizon. (The Jumpspace Institute is taking volunteers<BR>
> for this mission. Please line up to the right and fill out the names of<BR>
your<BR>
> next of kin.)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
> Fred Ramen<BR>
><BR>
> [1] Britannica.com: "The crushing weight of constituent matter falling in<BR>
> from all sides compresses the dying star to a point of zero volume and<BR>
> infinite density called the singularity."<BR>
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/6/0,5716,15686+1+15483,00.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:02:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 9:57 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> those who say that Satanism *is* Christianity.<BR>
<BR>
But Chris, I don't think /anyone/ said *that*. It was that you have to have<BR>
previously been Christian (or Muslim, or Jewish), excepting of course those<BR>
who choose so for rebellions sake, and likely don't really /believe/ any of<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:11:32 -0400<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Visual Basic project<BR>
<BR>
At 11:15 AM 05/26/2000 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
>...<BR>
>It's a Classic Traveller character generator for Book 1.<BR>
>My professor had never heard of RPG's before, but she<BR>
>loved it...and gave me an "A".<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
I wonder how many programming course requirements have been filled through <BR>
creation of character generators for the various RPGs?  I'm certain the <BR>
RPG-literacy of the education profession has been raised...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:11:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 10:49 AM, jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I am trying to make a list of different oddball technologies that might<BR>
> be used by aliens (or humaniti cultures), but the current material won't<BR>
> take me very far.<BR>
<BR>
I'm drooling, you /do/ plan on posting this here or on the web, right?<BR>
<BR>
> Any suggestions and/or ideas?<BR>
<BR>
I have some pet faves from literature, like collapsar (black hole) jumps<BR>
from Forever War, Alderson Drives from Mote in God's Eye, Psionic Folding<BR>
like in Dune, etc. I have some of these books still, and could snip<BR>
appropriate sections dealing with the technology for you.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:30:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Visual Basic project<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I wonder how many programming course requirements have been<BR>
> filled through<BR>
> creation of character generators for the various RPGs?<BR>
<BR>
Even better. Many years ago, I wrote a program which simulated land combat<BR>
in the Persian Empire for a *philosophy* class. Even better, it was the<BR>
instructor's idea! He had been looking for someone to write some sort of<BR>
computer simulation for quite a while, and was happier than <the cliche<BR>
happiness standard>. I wrote it in a few days using the old Chainmail rules<BR>
from TSR in BASIC on my Apple II. Being somewhat of an obsessive programmer<BR>
in those days, these days were close to 24 hours long, but it was all the<BR>
work I had to do for the entire semester. Truly maximized fun and minimized<BR>
effort for an A in a philosophy class.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:35:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT} RE: Suggested List Rules<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 1:57 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> Okay... I'm sure that all of you have heard this before and perhaps  some<BR>
>> of you are saying to yourselves..."Duuuuh... No sh**<BR>
>> Sherlock!...What a lame post"<BR>
> <BR>
> Not hardly, you're making perfect sense to me.<BR>
<BR>
Amen. Besides, I've seen much worse on other ML's and usenet groups.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:11:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > I'm also not up on how two Pi0 beams could annihilate. Usually you need<BR>
> some<BR>
> > sort of balancing of some sort of numbers, one positive and one<BR>
> negative,<BR>
> so<BR>
> > that the sum becomes all zeroes, like a photon.<BR>
><BR>
> Mesons have spin 0, Lepton number 0, Baryon number 0, and, in the<BR>
> case of Pi<BR>
> 0 mesons, a charge of 0. Everything they have adds up to 0, except<BR>
> mass/energy. Like photons, Pi 0 mesons are their own anti-particle.<BR>
<BR>
Doh! Of course. Pi0 mesons are a particle anti-particle pair (u*u/d*d), so<BR>
the annihilation will not require a second beam. One beam of Pi0 mesons will<BR>
do it all by itself if you just wait long enough.<BR>
<BR>
Straying back to the Traveller meson gun design topic then, we don't need<BR>
four beams for a meson weapon, but rather just two, right?<BR>
<BR>
All of this talk of mesons and stuff doesn't seem quite real. I worked with<BR>
electron beams for several years, and they're well-behaved. The only<BR>
byproducts which I ever produced were x-rays. The equipment which you need<BR>
to produce the energies at which you worry about anything past the<BR>
garden-variety stuff cost way more than *my* budget ever was.<BR>
<BR>
Which makes me wonder about the Traveller universe. At TL15+, what sort of<BR>
basic research is being done? How much does the equipment cost, and how much<BR>
space does it take up? The experiments which high-energy physicists do today<BR>
cost zillions of dollars, and the cost is increasing. If you project the<BR>
cost of these experiments over the next hundred years, you get some scary<BR>
numbers.<BR>
<BR>
Test equipment which I used about 3 years ago which cost about $500K will<BR>
cost about $100M in 2 years, mainly due to the increased clock speeds and<BR>
other performance issues. Project this out over the next hundred years to<BR>
get to the really high tech levels and you have some extremely expensive<BR>
stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the existence of megacorporations is required at the high TLs to<BR>
afford the R&D expenses required alone. Maybe only a few facilities exist<BR>
which can produce the really high TL stuff, just due to the expense of the<BR>
equipment. So interstellar transport of the stuff produced is the only<BR>
viable way to run things. On the other hand, this may be a good<BR>
justification of the slower pace of technology advancement in the OTU:<BR>
faster is just too expensive, particularly without an extremely high<BR>
population on a planet.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:37:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Judges Guild lives<BR>
<BR>
I thought this might be of interest to the TML. I'm just waiting for<BR>
Paranoia Press and FASA to start making supplements again. <g><BR>
<BR>
Clipped from their website:<BR>
<BR>
>No, this isn't "The New Judges Guild" -- it's the old Judges Guild back<BR>
again! We're not someone who's >bought the name, nor someone who's trying to<BR>
copy the concept, but the founder himself and a crew >dedicated to bringing<BR>
back Judges Guild the way it was -- but better. Keep watching this website<BR>
for >announcements, further information, and lots of great stuff!<BR>
http://www.judgesguild.com/<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:18:57 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
"Greetings, we are from the Imperial Census Bureau and we need to ask you a<BR>
few questions...."<BR>
<BR>
Sir the census only took eleven years in that subsector, will have them all<BR>
done in no time!<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Matt Stevens <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:11 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> > I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if<BR>
>> > the GT and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For<BR>
>> > example, there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a<BR>
>> > population of millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas,<BR>
>> > but in the billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we<BR>
>> > believe?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Hmmm ... S3 is circa 1105, BtC is circa 1116 ...<BR>
>><BR>
>> (a)  At some point between 1105 and 1116 there was a global  orgy<BR>
>>      without birth control.  This has resulted in a sizeable baby<BR>
>>      boom?<BR>
><BR>
>So every woman had about 1,000 children each? Gee, I'm glad<BR>
>I don't have to hear THEIR labor stories... (Damn, those fertility<BR>
>drugs are powerful!)<BR>
>><BR>
>> (b)  I've always taken  S3  (and  similar  sources)  to  be  IISS<BR>
>>      records and open to error.  IIRC there was  an  introductory<BR>
>>      adventure (Adventure 0)  which  was  based  around  a  group<BR>
>>      resurveying worlds in the Spinward Marches to help clear  up<BR>
>>      errors and ommissions  from  IGS-2.  Thus  S3  is  in  error<BR>
>>      (something which can sometimes trip up the complacant PC).<BR>
><BR>
>A thousand-fold error!?! Yikes!<BR>
><BR>
>"We used to think the US had a population of 250 million. We now<BR>
>realize it was only 250,000. It turns out that everyone in the US<BR>
>lives in New Haven, Connecticut. We apologize for the error, sir."<BR>
><BR>
>Although it does lead one to wonder... How the hell does the IISS<BR>
>determine world population anyway? My guess was that each world<BR>
>conducted its own census and reported its results to the IISS,<BR>
>but that may be a bit too sensible to be true...<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 01:33:12 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
<BR>
Ian writes<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At the time, Sicily was at the intersection of three cultures - the Muslim,<BR>
> the Greek and the Latin. Byzantium had a traditional interest in the area,<BR>
> North Africa was Muslim, and Italy was Latin.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Norman administration in Sicily was remarkably tolerant to cultural and<BR>
> religious issues. I believe that at least one of Duke Roger's chief<BR>
> administrators was Jewish (Roger was denied a crown due to issues of<BR>
> precedence - the Pope wouldnt give him a crown, and thus status close to<BR>
> equal to the King of France, without a quid pro quo).<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Actually Duke Roger failed to get the crown but his Son Roger II <BR>
was crowed by a an anti-pope who was in power.  He went by the <BR>
Title Roger the Great King Of Sicily.<BR>
<BR>
> He also managed to conquer a number of coastal towns in North Africa, but<BR>
> these were lost to the ?Almovarids? during the . One thing that helped Roger<BR>
> in his relationship is that Sicily was a major source of grain, and food<BR>
> security was always the top concern of whoever controlled a North African<BR>
> coastal town.<BR>
> <BR>
It was not Duke Roger but King Roger who took the Northern Africa <BR>
areas.    This takes along time to get right beacuse theres like 5 <BR>
differnt Rogers.  And yes Control of Sicily was the main advantage <BR>
the Norman Kings had.  As long as they controled it as a kings <BR>
land  they could take on anybody and win.  They rountinly defeated <BR>
Pope's Holy Roman Empire, Greek, Internal uprising in Southern <BR>
Italy and joint armies of all four,  Control of the area gave them <BR>
great power vrs othe kings with small personal wealth.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not only did it have grain but it controled the sealanes through the <BR>
Med Sea.  It was the perfect spot.  <BR>
<BR>
I just wrote a twenty page paper on the Kingdom if anybody is <BR>
interested I have a rough copy that can be emailed to you.  Just <BR>
send me a message.  <BR>
<BR>
> I remember reading a very good article about the Norman empire in North<BR>
> Africa. I think it was in a recent (last 2-3 years) article in either the<BR>
> Journal of Medieval History or the Journal of Meditteranean History<BR>
 they will surely make trouble for me") in the article.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
> <BR>
Ian I nver saw this article do have it  or can you find it again for me.  <BR>
I dont think it is the Journal Medieval History.  I want to do much <BR>
more on these Normans.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 03:20:24 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Judges Guild lives<BR>
<BR>
Well, it almost lives.  Hasn't been updated<BR>
in a year.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, Microsoft bought FASA recently.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Talon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I thought this might be of interest to the TML. I'm just waiting for<BR>
> Paranoia Press and FASA to start making supplements again. <g><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 02:28:26 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Judges Guild lives<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 27 May 2000, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> IIRC, Microsoft bought FASA recently.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Microsoft bought FASA Interactive, their computer games division.  The<BR>
rest is still just FASA.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:43:30 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens schrieb:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> But what do we do if the GT<BR>
> and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For example,<BR>
> there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a population of<BR>
> millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas, but in the<BR>
> billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we believe?<BR>
<BR>
Use whatever you like more? Or we asssume that the CT material is<BR>
earlier, i.e. changes have taken place from there to GT (whih is usually<BR>
15 years later or so? I don't know.)<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 23:59:35 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
> > Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
> > lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
> > technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, if you can *control* the decay rate, mass transmutation becomes<BR>
> *easy*. That alone changes things utterly.<BR>
<BR>
You mean one could make gold from lead? Or lanthanium from hydrogen?<BR>
Well, perhaps this is just too high an energy requirement, or<BR>
controlling transmutation is much more difficult than thought<BR>
initially... Wouldn't stretch SoD that much, I'd say. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:51:51 +0100<BR>
From: "edenhouse" <edenhouse@tinyonline.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Tribes<BR>
<BR>
As usual, there is a (non-official) mod to the original whereby AI NPC's are<BR>
available. However the NPCs don't ever complete missions.<BR>
<BR>
All in all Tribes is a good game  and the bots are a handy addition.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
><BR>
> Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > What's Tribes?<BR>
><BR>
> A computer game.  Online only shoot 'em up.<BR>
> So you only play other people, not computers.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:55:54 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> I've just purchased GURPS: ROBOTS and it states that<BR>
> any neural-net computer brain (which allows a robot brain<BR>
> to learn from  experience) of complexity 7+ may spontaneously<BR>
> become sentient. Roll 3D6 each year, on a 6 or less the<BR>
> robot becomes sentient.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Well, one can simply assume that milibots wouldn't have neural net<BR>
brains (or at least at a maximum complexity of 6). And BTW, programmed<BR>
limitations (such as mental disads of the "good" type), "Vow to obey its<BR>
superior officers", for example, remain active.  They just lose the<BR>
mental disads of "reprogrammable duty" anf "no sense of humour", which<BR>
must be replaced by other diads from the GM's/player's choice.<BR>
<BR>
I am not sure if one can use the GURPS rules for robots entirely for<BR>
Traveller, though. to create sentience is a _big_ problem for Traveller<BR>
robotics, so one would probably simply skip the Awakening rules. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:22:33 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> I was pondering moving near-C rocks the other day. As any discussion of<BR>
> relativity will tell you, as you approach the speed of light, your mass will<BR>
> go up. My first reaction was that this would prevent a jump at relativistic<BR>
> speeds. But with a mental hand slap, I remembered--jump is not canonically<BR>
> limited by mass, but by displacement.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> This struck me as counter-intuitive. What but gravity restricts ships to 100<BR>
> diameters? <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Well, my position on the matter: <BR>
There are two concepts that are helpful to work with when looking at<BR>
jump space theory:<BR>
The Jump Space Structure ("JSS") and the Jump Space Universe ("jump<BR>
space"). The JSS is the "crumpled table cloth" that connects all stars<BR>
two-dimensionally in n-space, jump space is the foreign universe where<BR>
the transport takes place. One important thing about the JSS is that it<BR>
obviously is disrupted around larger masses, or, more accurate, larger<BR>
volumes of bodies with a certain minmum size and density. It exists even<BR>
within a star or large planet, but is less reliable there- with the<BR>
known results. <BR>
 Why is that so? Those large volumes have corresponding "shadow objects"<BR>
in jump space, which are not at all understood, but certainly not<BR>
comparable to a "mass" in n-space. The only thing that is known about<BR>
them is that they exist at any place in jump space where here is a<BR>
corresponding object in n-space, and that they somehow influence the<BR>
formation of the JSS.<BR>
 <BR>
> It gets even weirder when you consider black holes. A black hole has *no*<BR>
> volume[1], so it should theoretically be possible to jump away from one even<BR>
> *inside* the event horizon. (The Jumpspace Institute is taking volunteers<BR>
> for this mission. Please line up to the right and fill out the names of your<BR>
> next of kin.)<BR>
<BR>
Since a singularity has now volume, it has no corresponding "shadow<BR>
object" in jump space, and thus is not relevant for jump space purposes.<BR>
But don't ask me why. ;-) Anyway, since *inside* the event horizon, it<BR>
will take quite  alot of "outside time" to even activate jump drive...<BR>
<g><BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:07:29 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Tribes (Was: GRIP Traveller URL)<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
> What's Tribes?<BR>
<BR>
A small game from SJgames. Very odd, quite funny.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sjgames.com/tribes/<BR>
<BR>
Check out the official page for details.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:46:05 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
N is a Naval Base<BR>
S is a Scout Base<BR>
<BR>
What an earth is A?<BR>
<BR>
My landgrab has been temporarily stalled by this.<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:39:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> A thousand-fold error!?! Yikes!<BR>
><BR>
> So there was a one zero missing in the data transmited to the IISS.<BR>
> This sort of error is quite common.<BR>
><BR>
> Like when I recieved 200 wire terminators instead of 2000 when I ordered<BR>
> them in the Air Force.<BR>
><BR>
> In this case the stores clerk had decided _I_ had made an error, and<BR>
> couldn't possiby have meant 2000. In fact we were about to do two<BR>
> updates that required re-wiring two aircraft each of which had more<BR>
> than a thousand wires of this thickness, and each wire needed two<BR>
> terminators, one on each end. So we needed _more_ than 2000, but 200o<BR>
> was the largest amount I could sign for at my rank.<BR>
<BR>
I'm reminded of the air base someplace well inland (Colorado?) got one<BR>
number wrong on a requistion shortly after the switch to a unified<BR>
parts numbering system for all the armed services...<BR>
<BR>
They wound up with a *large* ship's anchor.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:50:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I was pondering moving near-C rocks the other day. As any discussion of<BR>
> relativity will tell you, as you approach the speed of light, your mass will<BR>
> go up. My first reaction was that this would prevent a jump at relativistic<BR>
> speeds. But with a mental hand slap, I remembered--jump is not canonically<BR>
> limited by mass, but by displacement.<BR>
><BR>
> This struck me as counter-intuitive. What but gravity restricts ships to 100<BR>
> diameters? Plus, there's canonical evidence that gravity is important: AM6<BR>
> notes that "the zero-G environment of the asteroid belt was exactly what was<BR>
> required before the space-rending effects of jump drive could even be seen."<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> The other handwave is the Handwavian Radius. Essentially, a jump is safe<BR>
> whenever the gravitational attraction is less than .000025 G (the<BR>
> gravitational attraction of a planet of Earth density at 100 diameters.)<BR>
> Jumps are possible up to .0025 G (the ten diameter limit.)<BR>
<BR>
We *long* ago determined that since Traveller normally treats all<BR>
non-gas giant planets as having the same density, some simple<BR>
calculations show that the property that will be the same at 100<BR>
diameters is *not* gravitational attraction (acceleration due to<BR>
gravity). It requires something that varies as the *third* power of the<BR>
distance, not the second (because at a constant density *mass* varies<BR>
as the cube of the diameter).<BR>
<BR>
Turns out that tidal force varies that way. And this even makes sense<BR>
because tidal force is essentially a measure of the *curvature* of<BR>
spacetime. It makes sense that something trying to open a "hole" into<BR>
another space would be affected by this.<BR>
<BR>
For tidal force, just use GM/r^3 instead of the GM/r^2 you'd use to<BR>
calculate acceleration due to gravity. The result will be in units of<BR>
acceleration per meter.<BR>
<BR>
Also note that this is nice because if the figure at 100 diameters is<BR>
1, then it's 1000 at 10 diameters, and 8,000,000 at the surface (.5<BR>
diameters). No wonder jumping from the surface is instant death and<BR>
from 10 diameters is risky as hell!<BR>
<BR>
> Objections: Jump drives will now function based on mass, not volume.<BR>
<BR>
So? Note that the size maneuver drive you need for a ship depends on<BR>
volume, not mass also. So *all* sorts of drive are equally screwed up.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, this helps prevent some other problems. For example, it moves the<BR>
limit for the *star* in quite a bit closer because stars are (usually)<BR>
less dense than planets. It also moves it in closer to gas giants,<BR>
which is helpful if you want to use them.<BR>
<BR>
So "100 diameters" becomes a rule of thumb that's easier to measure<BR>
than the *real* safety limit and that has a moderate to large safety<BR>
factor. <BR>
<BR>
And finally it avoids all *sorts* of problems when trying to determine<BR>
if another ship is too close for you to jump. If you go by "diameter"<BR>
what to you use with an odd shape like the Type S scout? Length? Width?<BR>
Height? Each gives a *very* different answer.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:11:54 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Meson guns<BR>
<BR>
A couple of other potentially interesting handwaves :-<BR>
i. Meson guns actually shoot 'Q-balls' - squark/slepton collections ;<BR>
10^30 particles can fit inside an iron nucleus, but mass 0.1mg!<BR>
These would interact with ordinary matter to produce pion-antipion pairs<BR>
, neutrinos and lots of gamma rays.<BR>
<BR>
ii. Stimulated gamma emission via induction of nuclear isomerism in some<BR>
of the target's atoms. (a sort of tight beam nuclear damper effect).<BR>
M.E.S.O.N. = Mega-electron volt gamma Emission via Stimulation Of<BR>
Nuclear isomers?<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2515<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 08:18:21 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 08:17:58 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA79198;<BR>
	Sat, 27 May 2000 08:17:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 27 May 2000 08:16:58 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA79140<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 May 2000 08:16:58 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:16:58 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005271216.IAA79140@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2515<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2516</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/27/00 10:42:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2516<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re : Speed of psionics<BR>
Re : Base Codes<BR>
Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
Base Codes + X-boat terminals<BR>
Re: Base Codes<BR>
Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
First Regina, Then Mora<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Heaven & Earth Updated Release<BR>
Re: Base Codes<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
GT and CT<BR>
Math for Dummies?<BR>
Re: GT and CT<BR>
Re: GT and CT<BR>
Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
Re: Jump Physics<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:26:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Speed of psionics<BR>
<BR>
Various people have written :-<BR>
> > >Also, doesn't the fact that teleportation obeys Conservation of Momentum<BR>
> and<BR>
> > >Energy imply that it is bound by relativity as well (and therefore<BR>
> limited<BR>
> > >to less than lightspeed)? I lack the math and physics to figure that out<BR>
> > >myself.<BR>
Teleportation should comply with all the usual physical rules, since it<BR>
involves mass/energy and space/time.<BR>
To make things interesting, consider it a macroscale quantum effect -<BR>
anyone for 'stochastic ooze'?<BR>
<BR>
> I keep thinking of<BR>
> Einstein's elevator thought experiment. Doesn't the inability to determine<BR>
> the difference between acceleration and acceleration due to gravity come in<BR>
> here somewhere?<BR>
This is the principle of equivalence and is no small part of general<BR>
relativity.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:30:59 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote :-<BR>
> N is a Naval Base<BR>
> S is a Scout Base<BR>
> <BR>
> What an earth is A?<BR>
><BR>
From M.Miller, in an old Challenge article :-<BR>
<BR>
Base Codes<BR>
A = Navy and Scout Base<BR>
B = Naval Base and Way Station<BR>
C = Corsair Base (Vargr)<BR>
D = Depot<BR>
E = Embassy Centre (Hiver)<BR>
F = Naval and Military Base<BR>
G = Naval Base (Vargr)<BR>
H = Naval and Corsair Base (Vargr)<BR>
J = Naval Base<BR>
K = Naval Base (K'kree)<BR>
L = Naval Base (Hiver)<BR>
M = Military Base<BR>
N = Naval Base<BR>
O = Naval Outpost (K'kree)<BR>
P = Naval Base (Droyne)<BR>
Q = Military Garrison (Droyne)<BR>
R = Clan Base (Aslan)<BR>
S = Scout Base<BR>
T = Tlaukhu Base<BR>
U = Tlaukhu and Clan Base<BR>
V = Scout/Exploration Base<BR>
W = Way Station<BR>
X = Relay Station (Zhodani)<BR>
Y = Depot (Zhodani)<BR>
Z = Naval/Military Base (Zhodani)<BR>
<BR>
and<BR>
TNE :-<BR>
I = Interface World<BR>
T = Terminus World<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:12:20 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson schrieb:<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> Does this seem like a viable handwave?<BR>
<BR>
I am afraid I haven't understood it- before I can follow the concepts, I<BR>
have a few questions...<BR>
<BR>
> Thruster Plate Handwave<BR>
> <BR>
> *Handwave*<BR>
> >From 'Introduction to Gravetics'<BR>
> <BR>
> Standard explanations of gravetic systems inform us that they operate<BR>
> by means of an interaction with the gravitational field of a nearby<BR>
> massive object, allowing the object to in effect 'push' against a<BR>
> dominant nearby field; thruster plates use a similar, if slightly<BR>
> more complex, mechanism.  However, if you have been following the prior<BR>
> discussion of classical mechanics, you will see an immediate problem.<BR>
> Power = Force * Velocity.  The power input of a standard high-efficiency<BR>
> contragravity system is equal to 2 watts per newton.  The power output<BR>
> will be force * velocity (where velocity is relative to the object the<BR>
> force is being applied against), so if velocity exceeds 2 meters per<BR>
> second, it appears that our contragravity system will be producing more<BR>
> power than it consumes, a clear violation of conservation of energy.  If<BR>
> the velocity vector is reversed, the contragravity system can actually<BR>
> be causing huge quantities of energy to disappear.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps I am actually limited in my physics, but... As far as I can see<BR>
it, a contragravity device produces acceleration, doesn't it? So<BR>
"velocity" alone can't be of relevance, or ...? Or do you mean<BR>
"acceleration and "meters per second per sencond"? Or am I completely<BR>
wrong here? <BR>
?<BR>
<BR>
And I don't understand how higher velocities can produce energy, or<BR>
negative velocities destroy energy. I am noteven close to udnerstanding<BR>
the above paragraph enough to crtisize anything. I just don't<BR>
understand.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:01:20 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Base Codes + X-boat terminals<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
According to the Imperial Encyclopedia:<BR>
<BR>
A: Imperial Naval co-located with Imperial Scout.<BR>
B: Imperial Naval co-located with Imperial Scout Way station.<BR>
G: Military garrison.<BR>
M: Non-Imperial military.<BR>
N: Imperial Naval.<BR>
S: Imperial Scout.<BR>
W: Imperial Scout Way station.<BR>
Z: Zhodani Naval.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently we'd also use the Allegiance code to figure<BR>
out whose base it really was (except for the Zhodani<BR>
of course; their bases are clearly recognizable by the<BR>
huge, turban-shaped naval bases).<BR>
<BR>
And according to Classic Traveller:<BR>
<BR>
2: same as A.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What you need is a copy of the Imperial Encyclopedia,<BR>
which is a generally very useful supplement intended<BR>
for MegaTraveller but is fun for the whole "family"<BR>
of products.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
P.S.:<BR>
<BR>
I would really prefer some very basic X-Boat information<BR>
encoded into the sector lists.  Why isn't a Way Station<BR>
the same as an X-Boat terminal?<BR>
<BR>
To kludge around the problem, I've been overloading the<BR>
X-boat terminal onto the TAS travel code (a horrible<BR>
kludge, but least intrusive) like this:<BR>
<BR>
A: Amber zone, no X-boat terminal<BR>
R: Red zone, no X-boat terminal<BR>
X: TAS code green, X-boat terminal<BR>
Y: Amber zone, X-boat terminal<BR>
Z: Red zone, X-boat terminal<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:43:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
To: "Traveller Mailing List" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 11:46 AM<BR>
Subject: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> N is a Naval Base<BR>
> S is a Scout Base<BR>
> <BR>
> What an earth is A?<BR>
> <BR>
> My landgrab has been temporarily stalled by this.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ben<BR>
<BR>
IIRC it indicates the presence of both a Scout base *and* a Naval base.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:13:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 7:11 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > > I'm also not up on how two Pi0 beams could annihilate. Usually you<BR>
need<BR>
> > some<BR>
> > > sort of balancing of some sort of numbers, one positive and one<BR>
> > negative,<BR>
> > so<BR>
> > > that the sum becomes all zeroes, like a photon.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Mesons have spin 0, Lepton number 0, Baryon number 0, and, in the<BR>
> > case of Pi<BR>
> > 0 mesons, a charge of 0. Everything they have adds up to 0, except<BR>
> > mass/energy. Like photons, Pi 0 mesons are their own anti-particle.<BR>
><BR>
> Doh! Of course. Pi0 mesons are a particle anti-particle pair (u*u/d*d), so<BR>
> the annihilation will not require a second beam. One beam of Pi0 mesons<BR>
will<BR>
> do it all by itself if you just wait long enough.<BR>
<BR>
But then we are back to the old half-life/decay-occuring-all-along-the-beam<BR>
problem. Intersecting beams concentrate maximum annihilation in the target<BR>
area.<BR>
<BR>
> Straying back to the Traveller meson gun design topic then, we don't need<BR>
> four beams for a meson weapon, but rather just two, right?<BR>
<BR>
Well if to want to *guarantee* that annihilation will take place at a<BR>
certain point in space, you do still need two intersecting beams (and thus 4<BR>
progenitors). Remember that as the Pi 0 mesons are uncharged there is no<BR>
mutual attraction between the anti-particles to draw them together for<BR>
annihilation. However, at the point of intersection there will be collisions<BR>
due to the different vectors of the particles, so guaranteeing that the vast<BR>
majority of the interactions you want occur within the target.<BR>
<BR>
<snip interesting thoughts on R&D><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:21:05 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: First Regina, Then Mora<BR>
<BR>
Howdy all,<BR>
<BR>
I always thought that Regina was the sector capital <BR>
through part of the Classic milieu, and that the capital <BR>
was MOVED to Mora some time before the Rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:30:04 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Mora was sector capitol until Norris (in both MT and GURPS Traveller)<BR>
> >became the Archduke of Deneb. When he became an Archduke he now ranked<BR>
> >Duchess Delphine of Mora and his Ducal fief, Regina, became the sector<BR>
> >capitol.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is definitely wrong with regard to MT. Mora remained sector capital<BR>
> (And a very reasonable thing too. Think about the massive upheaval a change<BR>
> of capital would entail). So the idea that because Norris became Archduke<BR>
> of Deneb, Regina automatically became the sector capital is also wrong<BR>
> (since it didn't happen in the OTU).<BR>
<BR>
Even on the Classic Traveller maps, Mora is all capitalized -- MORA --<BR>
meaning it is a High Pop world, numbering in at least 1 billion<BR>
sophonts.<BR>
Therefore, any book that says Mora only has 'millions' is in ERROR.<BR>
<BR>
Next, a massive upheaval is fine, just rare.  Heck, in Traveller it<BR>
occurs only... well, pretty often actually, but it is a massive<BR>
upheaval.  But then, this is the Spinward Marches.  'Ave you looked<BR>
at the Marches lately?  It's definitely frontier; therefore, expect<BR>
an occasional upheaval and all the criminal activity that will spawn.<BR>
What fun!  Think of the corporate and military intrigue!<BR>
<BR>
However, for some reason I thought Regina was the original sector<BR>
capital.  Why?  I don't know.  I also thought Mora became the new<BR>
sector capital.  Or perhaps that's the Domain Capital?  But what's<BR>
that?  I didn't know each domain had a capital, in addition to a<BR>
sector capital --- I assume it's one of the sector capitals, if<BR>
there is any such "domain capital".  I suppose the domain administration<BR>
would be on the Archduke's capital, eh?  Okay.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:07:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth Updated Release<BR>
<BR>
H&E V1.0.1 has been released. Download details can be found at:-<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
<BR>
This updated version includes a number of minor bug fixes and the licensed<BR>
Twisted Pixel component as part of the installation package.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:08:41 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
Amber Zone?  Aslan Base?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
To: "Traveller Mailing List" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 6:46 AM<BR>
Subject: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> N is a Naval Base<BR>
> S is a Scout Base<BR>
> <BR>
> What an earth is A?<BR>
> <BR>
> My landgrab has been temporarily stalled by this.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ben<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:49:21 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
> > [Snip]<BR>
> [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> Well, one can simply assume that milibots wouldn't<BR>
have neural net<BR>
> brains (or at least at a maximum complexity of 6).<BR>
And BTW, programmed<BR>
> limitations (such as mental disads of the "good"<BR>
type), "Vow to obey its<BR>
> superior officers", for example, remain active.  They<BR>
just lose the<BR>
> mental disads of "reprogrammable duty" anf "no sense<BR>
of humour", which<BR>
> must be replaced by other diads from the<BR>
GM's/player's choice.<BR>
><BR>
> I am not sure if one can use the GURPS rules for<BR>
robots entirely for<BR>
> Traveller, though. to create sentience is a _big_<BR>
problem for Traveller<BR>
> robotics, so one would probably simply skip the<BR>
Awakening rules. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
I think I'll keep them in my IMTU, the fear of<BR>
spontaneous self-awareness<BR>
will make a good limiter on robots and gives me the<BR>
possibility of some<BR>
scarey scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 07:48:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: GT and CT<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
I recently got the CT Reprint of the Books and intend<BR>
to get all the CT Reprints that come out.<BR>
<BR>
Given this, which GURPS Traveller sourcebooks can you<BR>
guys recommend to me? Are there any which just consist<BR>
of reprints of CT stuff with GURPS stats (ie, is First<BR>
In just GURPS Book 6: Scouts or is there more to it?)<BR>
or are they all wonderful things full of lovely new<BR>
info?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for reading,<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:07:31 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Math for Dummies?<BR>
<BR>
Will some kind soul (via e-mail please) run through the procedure for adding <BR>
percentage chances? My copy of the Cartoon Guide to Statistics is 1,200 miles <BR>
away, and I can't for the life of me remember how to figure how the total of <BR>
(for example) two 50% chances and a 30% chance is determined. Honest, I used <BR>
to know but old age has taken it's toll on my braincells.<BR>
<BR>
Please reply to gdwgames@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, <BR>
<BR>
Loren<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:43:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: GT and CT<BR>
<BR>
> I recently got the CT Reprint of the Books and intend<BR>
> to get all the CT Reprints that come out.<BR>
> <BR>
> Given this, which GURPS Traveller sourcebooks can you<BR>
> guys recommend to me? Are there any which just consist<BR>
> of reprints of CT stuff with GURPS stats (ie, is First<BR>
> In just GURPS Book 6: Scouts or is there more to it?)<BR>
> or are they all wonderful things full of lovely new<BR>
> info?<BR>
<BR>
First In had a lot of information that wasn't in Book 6, so if<BR>
you're really interested in world building I would recommend<BR>
it. (If you have the old MT supplement "World Builder's<BR>
Handbook" there will be a bit more overlap, but still plenty<BR>
or original material.)<BR>
<BR>
I felt that quite a bit of information in GT Aliens 1<BR>
was superfolous to me, having the old CT alien modules<BR>
(plus the T4 supplement Aliens Archive), but I admit I<BR>
haven't read them as closely as First In and might have<BR>
missed a lot of new stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:43:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: GT and CT<BR>
<BR>
> I recently got the CT Reprint of the Books and intend<BR>
> to get all the CT Reprints that come out.<BR>
> <BR>
> Given this, which GURPS Traveller sourcebooks can you<BR>
> guys recommend to me? Are there any which just consist<BR>
> of reprints of CT stuff with GURPS stats (ie, is First<BR>
> In just GURPS Book 6: Scouts or is there more to it?)<BR>
> or are they all wonderful things full of lovely new<BR>
> info?<BR>
<BR>
First In had a lot of information that wasn't in Book 6, so if<BR>
you're really interested in world building I would recommend<BR>
it. (If you have the old MT supplement "World Builder's<BR>
Handbook" there will be a bit more overlap, but still plenty<BR>
or original material.)<BR>
<BR>
I felt that quite a bit of information in GT Aliens 1<BR>
was superfolous to me, having the old CT alien modules<BR>
(plus the T4 supplement Aliens Archive), but I admit I<BR>
haven't read them as closely as First In and might have<BR>
missed a lot of new stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:56:30 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>We *long* ago determined that since Traveller normally treats all<BR>
>non-gas giant planets as having the same density, some simple<BR>
>calculations show that the property that will be the same at 100<BR>
>diameters is *not* gravitational attraction (acceleration due to<BR>
>gravity). It requires something that varies as the *third* power of the<BR>
>distance, not the second (because at a constant density *mass* varies<BR>
>as the cube of the diameter).<BR>
<BR>
>Turns out that tidal force varies that way.<BR>
<BR>
Wow! Thanks, I wasn't around for those discussions.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>Also note that this is nice because if the figure at 100 diameters is<BR>
>1, then it's 1000 at 10 diameters, and 8,000,000 at the surface (.5<BR>
>diameters). No wonder jumping from the surface is instant death and<BR>
>from 10 diameters is risky as hell!<BR>
<BR>
Makes sense, since G-force is only 100 times greater at 10 diameters.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, massive, extremely dense objects will still act differently. But<BR>
for the good, since Bey Schaeffer now can't jump away from the neutron star.<BR>
<BR>
> Objections: Jump drives will now function based on mass, not volume.<BR>
<BR>
>So? Note that the size maneuver drive you need for a ship depends on<BR>
>volume, not mass also. So *all* sorts of drive are equally screwed up.<BR>
<BR>
This was true of CT, HG and MT. But FF&S made mass the determinant for<BR>
thrust, right?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>And finally it avoids all *sorts* of problems when trying to determine<BR>
>if another ship is too close for you to jump. If you go by "diameter"<BR>
>what to you use with an odd shape like the Type S scout? Length? Width?<BR>
>Height? Each gives a *very* different answer.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, using G fixes this problem as well, as you need only determine<BR>
the attraction from the center of mass, right? :)<BR>
<BR>
But I like your fix better. It even solves the black hole problem (although<BR>
another poster pointed out that you can't ignore the volume of infalling<BR>
mass either. I didn't *really* think you could live through such a loony<BR>
stunt, just wanted to point out something that's bugged me since MT<BR>
introduced mass but didn't recalibrate thrust or jump to take it into<BR>
account.)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "I am humbled when it comes to physics" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:02:32 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jump Physics<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Since a singularity has now volume, it has no corresponding "shadow<BR>
>object" in jump space, and thus is not relevant for jump space purposes.<BR>
>But don't ask me why. ;-) Anyway, since *inside* the event horizon, it<BR>
>will take quite  alot of "outside time" to even activate jump drive...<BR>
><g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Ingo. Shadow has pointed out that tidal force seems to be the<BR>
limiting factor for jump, and it makes sense to me, so we don't have to<BR>
expand Professor du Vague's theories into jumpspace :)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I like your theory of jumpspace (the squashed 3D perspective)!<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:38:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
There seems to be a fallacy here to me.  If you lock your legs while<BR>
standing you can't walk well, and if you stand still you will pass out in<BR>
short order.  Ask anyone who had to stand in a parade formation for any<BR>
length of time.  Also horses and dogs have the same basic structure and they<BR>
stand all day long.  It is just a matter of muscle development in the hip<BR>
area.  Vagr would have massive hip muscles IMHO.  Maybe they would tend to<BR>
squat a lot. As far as the advantages go I would agree.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
talon@skyenet.net<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:16 PM<BR>
Subject: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>A discussion in rec.arts.sf.science regarding improved humans got into<BR>
>discussing leg structure. And one of the things pointed out made me<BR>
>realize that Vargr have a *serious* problem (and an advantage that goes<BR>
>with it).<BR>
><BR>
>Our legs "lock" enabling us to stand without using any effort except<BR>
>that required for balance. This *requires* that the leg bones line up<BR>
>vertically.<BR>
><BR>
>Vargr legs have those bends. In fact, given various illos, Vargr legs<BR>
>*can't* be straightened out. That means that they can't stand for long<BR>
>periods. Try standing with your knees *bent* for any length of time.<BR>
><BR>
>That's the disadavantage.<BR>
><BR>
>The advantage is that *because* of that permanent bend, tendons from<BR>
>the upper leg can attach partway down the lower leg, and vice versa.<BR>
>That gives their leg muscles many *times* the leverage human leg<BR>
>muscles have.<BR>
><BR>
>Do *not* get where a Vargr can kick you! Or try to beat him at the leg<BR>
>press or at running.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:09:52 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
While I'm on the subject of dredging up old issues:<BR>
<BR>
Anybody familiar with Bell's inequality experiments? (A summary: if you<BR>
split a photon into two or more less energetic photons, due to the angular<BR>
momentum laws photons travelling in opposite directions will have opposite<BR>
spin. Bell's inequality postulates that if you reverse the spin of one<BR>
photon, the other photon will reverse its spin as well--instantaneously, no<BR>
matter how far away it is. In 1998, this was experimentally demonstrated at<BR>
a distance of seven miles!)<BR>
<BR>
Here's a link to an article about that experiment:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/magazine/article/0,5744,39796,00.html<BR>
<BR>
Anybody have any ideas about how to build a communicator using this? Is it<BR>
possible to do so? I guess it depends if you can store photons without<BR>
affecting their spin.<BR>
<BR>
For example, could you take the photons, split them, and then fire one set<BR>
towards Alpha Centauri. Four years later, the colonists collect them,<BR>
reverse their spin, and send morse code back to earth base...is this<BR>
possible?<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:28:20 -0400<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>>Jump from Earth orbit to half a<BR>
> > parsec out, and you've gained potential energy equivalent to a velocity<BR>
> > of almost 40 km/sec! Solely due to moving that much higher up in Sol's<BR>
> > gravity well. <<<<BR>
> ><BR>
> > [snip]<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>>One way to handle this would be to convert the PE into *directed* KE.<BR>
> > Porting in, he'd get a velocity of 40 km/sec, same as if he'd let<BR>
> > gravity drag him to the same location (which would take millenia).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>So porting out, he'd wind up moving away from the star at the same speed.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Now that I think about it, this makes more sense than Niven's idea of<BR>
> > "PE turns to heat when you port lower".<<<<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Thanks Leonard. I thought I had read Niven right, but don't have the math.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Niven says he feels it would end up as heat because the direction of the KE<BR>
> > would be randomized, and randomized KE=heat.<BR>
> <BR>
> Until I did the stuff above last night, I'd have thought so to. But<BR>
> then I remembered that potential energy *must* be a vector in this<BR>
> case, because of the way it interacts with velocity. Or alternatively<BR>
> because it's due to the gravity field which is *also* a vector.<BR>
<BR>
	Nope, doesn't work. Energy is ALWAYS a scalar quantity. Potential<BR>
energy doesn't HAVE a direction, any more than voltage has a direction<BR>
(an electric field has direction, gravity has direction, but neither<BR>
electrical nor gravitational potential energy has direction). This is<BR>
the main reason that changes in potential energy can be treated as just<BR>
PEf - PEi (energy in final position minus energy in initial position).<BR>
	Again, this is why teleporting over a change in potential energy<BR>
results in a gain or loss of heat. Heat IS the average kinetic energy of<BR>
the molecules making up the substance involved, and teleporting to a<BR>
location of different potential energy will change your kinetic energy<BR>
BUT NOT YOUR VELOCITY - energy is independent of velocity. If your<BR>
kinetic energy level changes, but your velocity doesn't, your<BR>
temperature changes.<BR>
<BR>
> It's just not obvious unless you do the "down" calc before the "up"<BR>
> calc. I also suspect that Niven took one look at the "porting up gives<BR>
> you an upward velocity" result (if he ever got that far) and went "Nah!<BR>
> That *can't* be right!"<BR>
<BR>
	Well, he'd be right. There seems to be no reason that teleporting would<BR>
change your velocity at all. Your kinetic energy, yes, but not your<BR>
velocity. The two are essentially independent (which is why it's often<BR>
easier to tackle a question by means of changes in energy than by means<BR>
of changes in position and velocity - you don't have to bother with<BR>
vectors, because the quantities involved are directionless.<BR>
Unfortunately, in a situation like this, they STAY directionless - just<BR>
because the force has direction doesn't mean that the energy has direction).<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:37:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
Fred it wouldn't have to be Morse, it could be binary or hex (for example)<BR>
as you're just making one's and zero's.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
To: "Traveller List" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:09 PM<BR>
Subject: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> While I'm on the subject of dredging up old issues:<BR>
><BR>
> Here's a link to an article about that experiment:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/magazine/article/0,5744,39796,00.html<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody have any ideas about how to build a communicator using this? Is it<BR>
> possible to do so? I guess it depends if you can store photons without<BR>
> affecting their spin.<BR>
><BR>
> For example, could you take the photons, split them, and then fire one set<BR>
> towards Alpha Centauri. Four years later, the colonists collect them,<BR>
> reverse their spin, and send morse code back to earth base...is this<BR>
> possible?<BR>
><BR>
> Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2516<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh05.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 13:42:40 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 13:42:18 2000<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA91460;<BR>
	Sat, 27 May 2000 13:41:31 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 27 May 2000 13:41:12 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA91415<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 May 2000 13:41:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:41:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005271741.NAA91415@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2516<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2517</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/27/00 6:56:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2517<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
Re: World Canon [long]<BR>
FASA adventures for sale<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
TL1 computer programming<BR>
[OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
Re: Base Codes<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
Re: GT and CT<BR>
Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
Judges Guild lives?<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
Re: [OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
Re: Judges Guild lives?<BR>
Re: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:16:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramon wrote:<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> > We *long* ago determined that since Traveller normally treats<BR>
> > all non-gas giant planets as having the same density, some<BR>
> > simple calculations show that the property that will be the same<BR>
> > at 100 diameters is *not* gravitational attraction (acceleration<BR>
> > due to gravity). It requires something that varies as the<BR>
> > *third* power of the distance, not the second (because at a<BR>
> > constant density *mass* varies as the cube of the diameter).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Turns out that tidal force varies that way.<BR>
><BR>
> Wow! Thanks, I wasn't around for those discussions.<BR>
<BR>
<plug><BR>
<BR>
If you *want* jump limits based on gravity check out my StuffOnline<BR>
site  ...  http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller   and<BR>
look under "Jump Drives".<BR>
<BR>
But as Leonard points out tidal force works closer to canon:  using<BR>
gravity gives you certain quirks (like the minimum safe distance to<BR>
jump from Sol is 4.49AU!)<BR>
<BR>
(One day I'm going to redo this page using tidal stress.)<BR>
<BR>
</plug><BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:12:58 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: World Canon [long]<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com> wrote,<BR>
>At 05:03 PM 5/22/00 +0100, John G. Wood wrote:<BR>
>>Foreven:<BR>
>>=======<BR>
>>1915 Gatina<BR>
>>         JTAS 18 9-10 (Amber Zone)<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>I like what you have done, but how did you come up with these being <BR>
>located in Foreven sector.  Official Canon lists only 5 worlds for <BR>
>Foreven (Raschev being one of them).  According to Imperial Lines #1 <BR>
>(and only), Foreven was set aside as a GM's playground, with only hex <BR>
>locations, political borders and the 5 worlds being drawn on the map.  <BR>
<BR>
Oops, sorry about that. For worlds without locations mentioned in the<BR>
magazine I searched my sector files. I have some Galactic files with<BR>
these worlds in these locations and assumed they were listed in some<BR>
publication I don't have (such as Imperial Lines #1...). Treat them as<BR>
being location: unknown instead. When I get to expanding this with<BR>
references from the adventures I'll mark them as 'non-canon' locations.<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 16:16:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: FASA adventures for sale<BR>
<BR>
I just put 4 FASA Traveller adventures up for sale on eBay. If<BR>
you're interested go to this URL:<BR>
<BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=343182487<BR>
<BR>
Oh, if anyone objects to me posting these notices on the<BR>
list, tell me and I'll cease and desist.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 16:20:23 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
This is a quantum phenomia called "estrangement"<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
To: "Traveller List" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:09 PM<BR>
Subject: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> While I'm on the subject of dredging up old issues:<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody familiar with Bell's inequality experiments? (A summary: if you<BR>
> split a photon into two or more less energetic photons, due to the angular<BR>
> momentum laws photons travelling in opposite directions will have opposite<BR>
> spin. Bell's inequality postulates that if you reverse the spin of one<BR>
> photon, the other photon will reverse its spin as well--instantaneously,<BR>
no<BR>
> matter how far away it is. In 1998, this was experimentally demonstrated<BR>
at<BR>
> a distance of seven miles!)<BR>
><BR>
> Here's a link to an article about that experiment:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/magazine/article/0,5744,39796,00.html<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody have any ideas about how to build a communicator using this? Is it<BR>
> possible to do so? I guess it depends if you can store photons without<BR>
> affecting their spin.<BR>
><BR>
> For example, could you take the photons, split them, and then fire one set<BR>
> towards Alpha Centauri. Four years later, the colonists collect them,<BR>
> reverse their spin, and send morse code back to earth base...is this<BR>
> possible?<BR>
><BR>
> Fred Ramen<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:50:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 27 May 2000 10:55:54 +0200, Ingo Heinscher <BR>
<Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, one can simply assume that milibots wouldn't have neural net<BR>
>brains (or at least at a maximum complexity of 6). And BTW, programmed<BR>
>limitations (such as mental disads of the "good" type), "Vow to obey its<BR>
>superior officers", for example, remain active.  They just lose the<BR>
>mental disads of "reprogrammable duty" anf "no sense of humour", which<BR>
>must be replaced by other diads from the GM's/player's choice.<BR>
><BR>
>I am not sure if one can use the GURPS rules for robots entirely for<BR>
>Traveller, though. to create sentience is a _big_ problem for Traveller<BR>
>robotics, so one would probably simply skip the Awakening rules. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps.  Though my imagination has now fired on the thought of what it <BR>
might be like to "wake up" for the first time as a sentient being in a <BR>
darkened repair bay ... or even better, in the middle of a high-tech firefight.<BR>
<BR>
"Number Five... is ALIVE."<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 00:36:01 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson writes:<BR>
> Subject: Re: Mora or Regina ?<BR>
> <BR>
>I was just looking at this, and I can't find anywhere in the description on <BR>
>page 81 that it says anything about sector capital.  The header reads:<BR>
>1910 Regina (Imperial Subsector Capital)<BR>
<BR>
It's true enough, I'm afraid. At the bottom of the second column on page 78:<BR>
<BR>
"The sector and subsector capital is Regina, the personal fief of the <BR>
archduke[1]..."<BR>
<BR>
[1] Another extremely implausible claim.<BR>
 <BR>
>Of course, I don't find any reference to Mora being anything but the Domain <BR>
>capital.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there are several references to Mora being the center of Imperial<BR>
government _in the Spinward Marches_ [emphasis mine] in addition to being<BR>
Domain capital. See page 111 and page 116. Which is a comfort, since it<BR>
means there is a direct contradiction of the 'Regina is the sector capital'<BR>
statement in a GT product. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:35:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well if to want to *guarantee* that annihilation will take place at a<BR>
> certain point in space, you do still need two intersecting beams<BR>
> (and thus 4<BR>
> progenitors). Remember that as the Pi 0 mesons are uncharged there is no<BR>
> mutual attraction between the anti-particles to draw them together for<BR>
> annihilation. However, at the point of intersection there will be<BR>
> collisions<BR>
> due to the different vectors of the particles, so guaranteeing<BR>
> that the vast<BR>
> majority of the interactions you want occur within the target.<BR>
<BR>
I think that the problem with the 4-beam model is that the Pi0 meson decay<BR>
occurs at some point after the meson is created rather than after an<BR>
interaction with another particle. A Pi0 meson is basically a litle bit of<BR>
matter and antimatter (a u and u* pair or a d and d* pair) waiting to<BR>
annihilate, so once it's formed it's only a matter of time until *boom*.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:02:51 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
At 8:58 PM -0800 5/26/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>A discussion in rec.arts.sf.science regarding improved humans got into<BR>
>discussing leg structure. And one of the things pointed out made me<BR>
>realize that Vargr have a *serious* problem (and an advantage that goes<BR>
>with it).<BR>
><BR>
>Our legs "lock" enabling us to stand without using any effort except<BR>
>that required for balance. This *requires* that the leg bones line up<BR>
>vertically.<BR>
<BR>
My legs don't lock.  I know lots of people whose legs don't lock.  We<BR>
still have an easy time standing, though, because most of the weight<BR>
is being supported by the bones and our muscles are only being used to<BR>
hold the leg straight so the load is transferred.  Locking your legs<BR>
can actually cause you to pass out and isn't really recommended.<BR>
<BR>
>Vargr legs have those bends. In fact, given various illos, Vargr legs<BR>
>*can't* be straightened out. That means that they can't stand for long<BR>
>periods. Try standing with your knees *bent* for any length of time.<BR>
<BR>
This is true, though Dogs stand up for long periods of time but they<BR>
do sit often and it's very easy for them to sit.  Same for cats.<BR>
<BR>
>That's the disadavantage.<BR>
><BR>
>The advantage is that *because* of that permanent bend, tendons from<BR>
>the upper leg can attach partway down the lower leg, and vice versa.<BR>
>That gives their leg muscles many *times* the leverage human leg<BR>
>muscles have.<BR>
><BR>
>Do *not* get where a Vargr can kick you! Or try to beat him at the leg<BR>
>press or at running.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and they can probably jump, too.  Many big cats can jump very<BR>
far.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:36:42 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFC80A.80A09920<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
Do any of you programmers out there have any QBasic code that generates =<BR>
a WBS sector file?  Or can anyone email me the chart for generating the =<BR>
PBG, Base Code and Satalite Code?<BR>
<BR>
Please.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFC80A.80A09920<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3013.2600" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>Do any of you programmers out there =<BR>
have any QBasic=20<BR>
code that generates a WBS sector file?&nbsp; Or can anyone email me the =<BR>
chart=20<BR>
for generating the PBG, Base Code and Satalite Code?</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Please.</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFC80A.80A09920--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:46:51 CEST<BR>
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
<BR>
>>>How?  The Japanese had NO ability to hold Midway, especially in the<BR>
>>>presence of large, hostile forces.<BR>
>><BR>
>>But if the US carriers had been sunk at Midway rather than the >>Japanese,<BR>
><BR>
>The US would have lost about THREE carriers, out of how many?<BR>
<BR>
SIX. Of the three carriers that weren't at Midway only the Saratoga was in <BR>
the Pacific. The two other, the Ranger and the Hornet, were in the Atlantic. <BR>
Both however were escort carriers (smaller). The Japanese had, IIRC, about <BR>
10-12 carrier (small and big) of which 7 were at Midway and a couple more in <BR>
the diversion fleet.<BR>
<BR>
Patrik Holmstrm<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:28:54 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
A recent Scientific American (April 2000) has a decent article on this<BR>
under the title 'Quantum Teleportation'.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 27 May 2000, VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> While I'm on the subject of dredging up old issues:<BR>
> <BR>
> Anybody familiar with Bell's inequality experiments? (A summary: if you<BR>
> split a photon into two or more less energetic photons, due to the angular<BR>
> momentum laws photons travelling in opposite directions will have opposite<BR>
> spin. Bell's inequality postulates that if you reverse the spin of one<BR>
> photon, the other photon will reverse its spin as well--instantaneously, no<BR>
> matter how far away it is. In 1998, this was experimentally demonstrated at<BR>
> a distance of seven miles!)<BR>
> > <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:41:41 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 27 May 2000 tim@premier.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Snip...<BR>
 <BR>
> Actually Duke Roger failed to get the crown but his Son Roger II <BR>
> was crowed by a an anti-pope who was in power.  He went by the <BR>
> Title Roger the Great King Of Sicily.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Am I the only one who keeps hearing Monty Python voices in my head while<BR>
reading all of this?? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
No offense meant, Tim, Ian, and it's a fascinating slice of history, but<BR>
seeing MPATHG, LOB, and that History Channel show about the Crusaders that<BR>
one of the Pythons narrated have permanently skewed my mental picture of<BR>
history...  <BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:56:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/27/00 5:12 AM, Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I just don't<BR>
> understand.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks,<BR>
> Ingo<BR>
<BR>
You are not alone. What is "negative velocity"? You either are going or not,<BR>
right? Or is this deceleration? I suck at physics. ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:51:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> N is a Naval Base<BR>
> S is a Scout Base<BR>
><BR>
> What an earth is A?<BR>
<BR>
Both.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:52:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, one can simply assume that milibots wouldn't have neural net<BR>
> brains (or at least at a maximum complexity of 6). And BTW, programmed<BR>
> limitations (such as mental disads of the "good" type), "Vow to obey its<BR>
> superior officers", for example, remain active.  They just lose the<BR>
> mental disads of "reprogrammable duty" anf "no sense of humour", which<BR>
> must be replaced by other diads from the GM's/player's choice.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it's obvious that "no sense of humor" gets replaced with "low<BR>
sense of humor" :-)<BR>
<BR>
("low" in the sense of "base", not the sense of "very little")<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I am not sure if one can use the GURPS rules for robots entirely for<BR>
> Traveller, though. to create sentience is a _big_ problem for Traveller<BR>
> robotics, so one would probably simply skip the Awakening rules. YMMV.<BR>
><BR>
> CU,<BR>
> Ingo<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:54:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There seems to be a fallacy here to me.  If you lock your legs while<BR>
> standing you can't walk well, and if you stand still you will pass out in<BR>
> short order.  Ask anyone who had to stand in a parade formation for any<BR>
> length of time.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but you are wrong. Yes, you need to move muscles to *keep blood<BR>
from pooling*. But you do not need to use muscles to *support your<BR>
weight*. <BR>
<BR>
"locking" legs is for *standing*, and merely means that they'l stay<BR>
alinged straight up and down without any effort. Not that they actively<BR>
resist being bent.<BR>
<BR>
>  Also horses and dogs have the same basic structure and they stand<BR>
> all day long. <BR>
<BR>
Take another look. A dogs rear legs are *not* a straight line from the<BR>
hip to the foot *ever*. A horse's can be. The structures *are* different.<BR>
<BR>
> It is just a matter of muscle development in the hip area. Vagr would<BR>
> have massive hip muscles IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
It's not *hip* muscles. You also need the muscle in the *leg* working<BR>
to stay erect with a canine rear leg design. Remember that Vargr,<BR>
unlike dogs, are *bipeds*.<BR>
<BR>
> Maybe they would tend to squat a lot.<BR>
<BR>
All squatting does is change which musles are doing the work. They<BR>
still have to work at supporting the body weight. I'm sure you have<BR>
some idea how long you can stand. Compare that with how long you can<BR>
stand with yor knees bent at an angle of say 135 to 90 degrees. Then<BR>
compare that with how long you can squat (*not* resting your weight on<BR>
your heels!). <BR>
<BR>
True, *part* of the difference is that you aren't used to the position.<BR>
But *most* of it is due to your having to use large amounts of muscle<BR>
tension to maintain the position.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:13:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT and CT<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/27/00 7:48 AM, ajboff@yahoo.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Given this, which GURPS Traveller sourcebooks can you<BR>
> guys recommend to me? Are there any which just consist<BR>
> of reprints of CT stuff with GURPS stats (ie, is First<BR>
> In just GURPS Book 6: Scouts or is there more to it?)<BR>
> or are they all wonderful things full of lovely new<BR>
> info?<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't say you /need/ both GT:FI and Scouts, but I do, and I am happy. I<BR>
do not consider it a waste of money, but it may put GT:FI further down on<BR>
your priorities. I prefer the system generation in it over Scouts, but I<BR>
prefer the ChrGen of CT. But GT:FI has real nice deckplans for the fast<BR>
courier, X-Boat, Donosev, and the X-Boat tender. Basically your budget is<BR>
the deciding factor, both should be on your "get list". For other GURPS<BR>
stuff, I'd say BtC is really nice, and Far Trader a close second. But you<BR>
should also check out the BITS line, Lifeforms in particular.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:22:32 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Normans in Siciliy (really this time)<BR>
<BR>
Brucs says <BR>
>  <BR>
> > Actually Duke Roger failed to get the crown but his Son Roger II <BR>
> > was crowed by a an anti-pope who was in power.  He went by the <BR>
> > Title Roger the Great King Of Sicily.<BR>
> > <BR>
> <BR>
> Am I the only one who keeps hearing Monty Python voices in my head while<BR>
> reading all of this?? ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> No offense meant, Tim, Ian, and it's a fascinating slice of history, but<BR>
> seeing MPATHG, LOB, and that History Channel show about the Crusaders that<BR>
> one of the Pythons narrated have permanently skewed my mental picture of<BR>
> history...  <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
None taken, I am still trying to figure out why only the wash women <BR>
got to go on the Crusades.  I could bring this into to Traveller, <BR>
almost did but I dont think the list wants to go through another <BR>
debate on feudalism in Traveller.  ; )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Bruce Johnson<BR>
> University of Arizona<BR>
> College of Pharmacy<BR>
> Information Technology Group<BR>
> <BR>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 03:16:52 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Judges Guild lives?<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I thought this might be of interest to the TML. I'm just waiting for<BR>
>Paranoia Press and FASA to start making supplements again. <g><BR>
> <BR>
>Clipped from their website:<BR>
><BR>
>No, this isn't "The New Judges Guild" -- it's the old Judges Guild back<BR>
>again! <BR>
<BR>
I just had a browse around their website and noticed that the last news<BR>
item was dated June 15th 1999. So I'm not too sure just how alive they<BR>
are.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"What's your saving throw against spells which normally allow no<BR>
 saving throw?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:20:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/27/00 8:38 AM, talon@skyenet.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> There seems to be a fallacy here to me.  If you lock your legs while<BR>
> standing you can't walk well, and if you stand still you will pass out in<BR>
> short order.  Ask anyone who had to stand in a parade formation for any<BR>
> length of time.  Also horses and dogs have the same basic structure and they<BR>
> stand all day long.<BR>
<BR>
Dogs and horses are standing on all fours though, try to get a chimp to<BR>
stand at parade rest. Pass out in "short order"? Define "short" please, I<BR>
can hold stance while hunting for at least half an hour or so.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:13:45 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
<BR>
>>The US would have lost about THREE carriers, out of how many?<BR>
><BR>
>SIX. Of the three carriers that weren't at Midway only the Saratoga was in <BR>
>the Pacific. The two other, the Ranger and the Hornet, were in the Atlantic. <BR>
<BR>
RANGER and WASP.  HORNET was at Midway.<BR>
<BR>
>Both however were escort carriers (smaller). The Japanese had, IIRC, about <BR>
<BR>
Uh...WASP had the second-largest displacement of all US carriers at that<BR>
time.  And neither were escort carriers.  In fact, while RANGER was a<BR>
wonderful example of "Here's a carrier design; don't use it for the next<BR>
one!" she was a whole lot better then many Japanese carriers<BR>
<BR>
However, had the Japanese plan worked as they thought it would, the IJN<BR>
would have killed at MOST two carriers.  That still would have left the US<BR>
with a great deal of forces.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:15:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
    Talking about Vargr Physiology, the other day I took my dog out for a<BR>
walk & due to the heat, she was wearing "Cool Paws".  And, as the Vargr do<BR>
not, as a rule wear shoes, could not a smart merchant sell them "Cool Paws"<BR>
intended for large dogs?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:27:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Judges Guild lives?<BR>
<BR>
Actually Judges Guild does live ;) Bob Bledsaw, the owner of Judges Guild, is selling copies of the remaining stocks of the original Judges Guild material, to raise money for the production and release of new material. In addition, we have picked up the license to reproduce previous Judges Guild adventures and supplements (including Traveller material) in GRIP Adventure format for online gaming. We hope to debut City State of the Invincible Overlord for GRIP at GenCon 2000, if all goes well, we other products to follow.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Traveller<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********<BR>
<BR>
On 5/28/2000 at 3:16 AM Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Todd Moody writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>I thought this might be of interest to the TML. I'm just waiting for<BR>
>>Paranoia Press and FASA to start making supplements again. <g><BR>
>> <BR>
>>Clipped from their website:<BR>
>><BR>
>>No, this isn't "The New Judges Guild" -- it's the old Judges Guild back<BR>
>>again! <BR>
><BR>
>I just had a browse around their website and noticed that the last news<BR>
>item was dated June 15th 1999. So I'm not too sure just how alive they<BR>
>are.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>      Hans Rancke<BR>
>University of Copenhagen<BR>
>     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
>------------<BR>
>"What's your saving throw against spells which normally allow no<BR>
> saving throw?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:37:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
> N is a Naval Base<BR>
> S is a Scout Base<BR>
><BR>
> What an earth is A?<BR>
><BR>
> My landgrab has been temporarily stalled by this.<BR>
<BR>
My landgrab has now recomenced, thanks to everyone for<BR>
that info.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
PS: what do I do with all the data once I have<BR>
generated it?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2517<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (rly-yd01.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.1]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 21:56:03 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 May 2000 21:55:46 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA11086;<BR>
	Sat, 27 May 2000 21:54:41 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 27 May 2000 21:54:27 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA11045<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 May 2000 21:54:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:54:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005280154.VAA11045@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2517<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2518</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/28/00 2:20:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 28 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2518<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
Re: Re : Base Codes<BR>
Re: Re : Base Codes<BR>
Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
Traveller Deckplans Design Contest <BR>
Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee<BR>
Re: Judges Guild lives?<BR>
No subject was specified.<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: Battleships<BR>
Re: [OT] Midway What-if's <BR>
TML Baycon party....<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
Ship Type Codes<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:14:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> While I'm on the subject of dredging up old issues:<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody familiar with Bell's inequality experiments? (A summary: if you<BR>
> split a photon into two or more less energetic photons, due to the angular<BR>
> momentum laws photons travelling in opposite directions will have opposite<BR>
> spin. Bell's inequality postulates that if you reverse the spin of one<BR>
> photon, the other photon will reverse its spin as well--instantaneously, no<BR>
> matter how far away it is. In 1998, this was experimentally demonstrated at<BR>
> a distance of seven miles!)<BR>
<BR>
> Here's a link to an article about that experiment:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/magazine/article/0,5744,39796,00.html<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody have any ideas about how to build a communicator using this? Is it<BR>
> possible to do so?<BR>
<BR>
It's not possible to build an FTL communicator with this. Why? Because<BR>
measuring the spin of *one* of the phtons doesn't tell you anything<BR>
useful.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, when you create the photons, you don't know which one has<BR>
which spin. So reversing the spin of the one you keep will reverse the<BR>
spin of the one that's almost to Alpha Centauri. But when the folks at<BR>
Alpha Centauri measure the spin of that photon, the only way they can<BR>
know if it was reversed is if you sent them a message telling them what<BR>
the spin of the other one was. Which *you* don't know until you change<BR>
the spin and measure the result. <BR>
<BR>
Measuring the spin of the photon you keep "sets" the spin of the other<BR>
photon *irrevocably*. <BR>
<BR>
They've done experiments that show *neither* photon has *either* spin<BR>
until you measure the spin of one of them. <BR>
<BR>
So it's useless for FTL, because it doesn't transmit *information*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:20:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
<BR>
"LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in accelerating<BR>
lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.  A working Tractor <BR>
beam is<BR>
expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:33:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
<BR>
> "LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in accelerating<BR>
> lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.  A working Tractor <BR>
> beam is<BR>
> expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
> <BR>
OK, so when are we going to see the FFS2 stats for these things?<BR>
Or at least tell us how much damage they do. (Push lawnmowers <BR>
used to be a favorite weapon in our old Top Secret games.)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:39:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
I downloaded the free player version of the GRIP software last night, it is<BR>
a little over 3 megs.  After a little confusion on which program to start<BR>
with I managed to find my way to the chat room and was in a game playing in<BR>
just a few minutes.  Total time from start of download to being in a game<BR>
was about 40 minutes total.  The software is pretty cool and has some nice<BR>
options that allow you to receive maps, charts and character sheets directly<BR>
from the GM and lays them out in tab format so you can view each.  It also<BR>
has some intuitive dice rolling functions.  Overall it was easy to use and I<BR>
enjoyed it immensely.  It did help that Hunter Gordon was in the chat room<BR>
and was able to walk me through any problems I had.  He said he is online<BR>
most evenings to answer questions and such.<BR>
I would say give it a try, its a bargain at twice the price!<BR>
<BR>
I would love to get into a game with some of you guys!<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:14:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> You are not alone. What is "negative velocity"? You either are going or not,<BR>
> right? Or is this deceleration? I suck at physics. ;)<BR>
<BR>
Velocity is a *vector* quantity. That means it has both a magnitude<BR>
(how fast you are going) but also a *direction*. <BR>
<BR>
So a velocity of +5 and a velocity of -5 are the same *speed*, but in<BR>
opposite directions.<BR>
<BR>
You can "resolve" any vector to into two seperate vectors at right<BR>
angles to each other. One paper, you draw the vector as an arrow with a<BR>
length proportional to the speed, and pointed in the proper direction.<BR>
Then you draw a square or rectangle that has the non-pointy end of the<BR>
arrow as a corner and the body of the arrow as a diagonal. The two<BR>
sides coming from that same corner are the two vectors the original<BR>
vector can be split into. <BR>
<BR>
This lets you do this with two vectors (having the sides of the<BR>
rectangles parallel to each other) and then add subtract the new<BR>
vectors since they are going in the same direction. <BR>
<BR>
Or you can add vectors by drawing one, then drawing the other with its<BR>
tail starting at the first vectors head. The resultant vector is drawn<BR>
from the tail of the first vector to the head of the second.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:22:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Do any of you programmers out there have any QBasic code that generates <BR>
> a WBS sector file?  Or can anyone email me the chart for generating the <BR>
> PBG, Base Code and Satalite Code?<BR>
<BR>
From The Traveller Book:<BR>
<BR>
System Contents table:<BR>
<BR>
                    bases      Gas<BR>
roll  starport  Naval  Scout  Giant<BR>
- ----  --------  -----  -----  -----<BR>
2     A         no     no     yes<BR>
3     A         no     no     yes<BR>
4     A         no     no     yes<BR>
5     B         no     no     yes<BR>
6     B         no     no     yes<BR>
7     C         no     yes    yes<BR>
8     C         yes    yes    yes<BR>
9     D         yes    yes    yes<BR>
10    E         yes    yes    no<BR>
11    E         yes    yes    no<BR>
12    X         yes    yes    no<BR>
<BR>
Roll once for each column. <BR>
Scout Base: DM -1 if starport C; -2 if starport B; and -3 if starport A.<BR>
            Do not roll if starport E or X.<BR>
Naval Base: Do not roll if starport C, D, E, or X.<BR>
<BR>
That handles base code, and the G(as Giant) part of PBG. <BR>
<BR>
The P(opulation) part of PBG is generated by rolling a 10 sided die.<BR>
Equal chances of 0-9. <BR>
<BR>
The Belt part *requires* one of the (several different) extended system<BR>
generation rule sets. So does stuff about satellites. If you want<BR>
either of those, you need to *buy* a copy of First IN or one of the<BR>
older rulebooks dealing with the extended system generation.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:46:02 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jump physics (Long)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:50:08 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>So "100 diameters" becomes a rule of thumb that's easier to measure<BR>
>than the *real* safety limit and that has a moderate to large safety<BR>
>factor.<BR>
><BR>
>And finally it avoids all *sorts* of problems when trying to determine<BR>
>if another ship is too close for you to jump. If you go by "diameter"<BR>
>what to you use with an odd shape like the Type S scout? Length? Width?<BR>
>Height? Each gives a *very* different answer.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well I play it as volume pure and simple. With the additional loophole that<BR>
a jump is not effected by any volume of less than 100 DTons (I have no clue<BR>
why but it keeps me from waking up in a cold sweat worrying about<BR>
catastrophic miss-jump from being within 100 Diams of a Hydrogen atom.)<BR>
<BR>
And the actual equation isn't 100 diameters it's 200 radii. Therefore the<BR>
safe<BR>
distance from a nonspherical body is 200 times the length of the ray between<BR>
the bodies center of volume (the point at which the sum of the length of all<BR>
rays to the surface is the least [did that make sense?])<BR>
<BR>
So the safe jump distance for an S type is longest to the front of the scout<BR>
and shortest up/down. An interesting ramification of this is that it could<BR>
be possible for two identical ships to jump simultaneously in a way that one<BR>
of the<BR>
ships will be subject to miss-jump due to being within the 200R limit while<BR>
the<BR>
other will be jumping from a safe sepperation.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH The volume of space compared to the volume of ships is so great that<BR>
at seperation between ships is likely to be routinely far greater than the<BR>
jump<BR>
limit anyway so it doesn't really matter.<BR>
<BR>
This is my curmudgeonly stuborn view of jump limits. You may disagree with<BR>
me but your unlikely to shake my faith in it's truth.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:06:02 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
At 5:54 PM -0800 5/27/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>  There seems to be a fallacy here to me.  If you lock your legs while<BR>
>>  standing you can't walk well, and if you stand still you will pass out in<BR>
>>  short order.  Ask anyone who had to stand in a parade formation for any<BR>
>>  length of time.<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, but you are wrong. Yes, you need to move muscles to *keep blood<BR>
>from pooling*. But you do not need to use muscles to *support your<BR>
>weight*.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe you don't, but that's not universal.  Many people have to hold<BR>
some tension in their leg muscles to keep from collapsing.  This is<BR>
to keep the bones lined up and not holding the weight.  "locking"<BR>
consists of slightly hyperextending the knee so that the weight of your<BR>
body actually bends the leg forward against the tendons, letting you<BR>
relax your muscles.<BR>
<BR>
>"locking" legs is for *standing*, and merely means that they'l stay<BR>
>alinged straight up and down without any effort. Not that they actively<BR>
>resist being bent.<BR>
<BR>
Again, not everyone can do this.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:50:26 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 27 May 2000 22:30:59 +1000, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch wrote :-<BR>
> > N is a Naval Base<BR>
> > S is a Scout Base<BR>
> > <BR>
> > What an earth is A?<BR>
> ><BR>
> From M.Miller, in an old Challenge article :-<BR>
> <BR>
> Base Codes<BR>
> A = Navy and Scout Base<BR>
> B = Naval Base and Way Station<BR>
> C = Corsair Base (Vargr)<BR>
> D = Depot<BR>
> E = Embassy Centre (Hiver)<BR>
> F = Naval and Military Base<BR>
> G = Naval Base (Vargr)<BR>
> H = Naval and Corsair Base (Vargr)<BR>
> J = Naval Base<BR>
> K = Naval Base (K'kree)<BR>
> L = Naval Base (Hiver)<BR>
> M = Military Base<BR>
> N = Naval Base<BR>
> O = Naval Outpost (K'kree)<BR>
> P = Naval Base (Droyne)<BR>
> Q = Military Garrison (Droyne)<BR>
> R = Clan Base (Aslan)<BR>
> S = Scout Base<BR>
> T = Tlaukhu Base<BR>
> U = Tlaukhu and Clan Base<BR>
> V = Scout/Exploration Base<BR>
> W = Way Station<BR>
> X = Relay Station (Zhodani)<BR>
> Y = Depot (Zhodani)<BR>
> Z = Naval/Military Base (Zhodani)<BR>
<BR>
So what differentiates between an "N" base and a "J" base?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Ultimate office automation: networked coffee.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:08:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 27 May 2000 22:30:59 +1000, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Ben Aaronovitch wrote :-<BR>
>> > N is a Naval Base<BR>
>> > S is a Scout Base<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > What an earth is A?<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> From M.Miller, in an old Challenge article :-<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Base Codes<BR>
>> A = Navy and Scout Base<BR>
>> B = Naval Base and Way Station<BR>
>> C = Corsair Base (Vargr)<BR>
>> D = Depot<BR>
>> E = Embassy Centre (Hiver)<BR>
>> F = Naval and Military Base<BR>
>> G = Naval Base (Vargr)<BR>
>> H = Naval and Corsair Base (Vargr)<BR>
>> J = Naval Base<BR>
>> K = Naval Base (K'kree)<BR>
>> L = Naval Base (Hiver)<BR>
>> M = Military Base<BR>
>> N = Naval Base<BR>
>> O = Naval Outpost (K'kree)<BR>
>> P = Naval Base (Droyne)<BR>
>> Q = Military Garrison (Droyne)<BR>
>> R = Clan Base (Aslan)<BR>
>> S = Scout Base<BR>
>> T = Tlaukhu Base<BR>
>> U = Tlaukhu and Clan Base<BR>
>> V = Scout/Exploration Base<BR>
>> W = Way Station<BR>
>> X = Relay Station (Zhodani)<BR>
>> Y = Depot (Zhodani)<BR>
>> Z = Naval/Military Base (Zhodani)<BR>
><BR>
> So what differentiates between an "N" base and a "J" base?<BR>
<BR>
My list of codes (from Second Survey) doesn't have J. It lists N as<BR>
being for *Imperial* Navy bases. J sounds like the "generic" code for<BR>
"pocket empire" type naval bases.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:10:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in accelerating<BR>
> lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.  A working Tractor <BR>
> beam is expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
<BR>
Jordin has what can only be described as a "strange" sense of humor. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:13:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
One more thought on meson weapons.<BR>
<BR>
After some reflection, the Pi0 meson seems a fairly elegant weapon<BR>
technology. You want to zap an enemy ship. Charged particles aren't as<BR>
useful as you would like, since they can be deflected away from the target<BR>
fairly easily. What you would really like to do is throw particles of<BR>
antimatter at the target, but the charged antimatter particles have the same<BR>
drawbacks as their matter relatives. Bigger chunks of antimatter (atoms) are<BR>
probably too hard to get in the quantity you would like for a weapon. The<BR>
Pi0 meson is an elegant solution: you essentially create a matter-antimatter<BR>
pair which is about to annihilate, and shoot that at the target. Just like<BR>
hitting it with antimatter.<BR>
<BR>
In light of this, I am starting to a believer in meson guns again. I'm sure<BR>
that all of the potential drawbacks which have been discussed so far can be<BR>
overcome by a suitable application of high-TL technology.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I seem to recall that antimatter was present at some<BR>
place in the Traveller universe. Maybe Shionthy? If you can get this stuff<BR>
in any quantity you can make a good weapon out of it. Since Shionthy is red<BR>
zoned, you may have an adventure here...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:29:42 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph Kimball" <jekimball@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Traveller Deckplans Design Contest <BR>
<BR>
It is my pleasure to announce to opening of the first Traveller<BR>
Deckplans Design Contest (TDDC) and its associated website.<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm<BR>
<BR>
The TDDC is intended to increase the number of deckplans available<BR>
for Traveller on the web and to give all you naval architects a<BR>
chance to test your talents. This contest is not limited to any<BR>
particular incarnation of Traveller. You do not have to master the<BR>
ship design rules. It involves making images to give form to a design.<BR>
<BR>
For each contest a text description of a design will be posted. The<BR>
ruleset used to create this design will vary from contest to contest,<BR>
but the ship will always be described in sufficient detail in terms<BR>
of system volumes for anyone to interpret graphically. Your<BR>
assignment is to submit deckplans or renderings showing us how you<BR>
think the ship is put together.<BR>
<BR>
At the end of each contest two winners will be determined by popular<BR>
vote in deckplans and rendering categories. Full contest rules are<BR>
available on the site.<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm<BR>
<BR>
Come by and show us the depths of your talents. Everyone is eligible to<BR>
enter.<BR>
<BR>
If you are convinced you cannot put two lines together (you are<BR>
wrong, by the way) come by and vote for a winner. Anyone can vote.<BR>
<BR>
One last time, the URL of the Traveller Deckplans Design Contest is:<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm<BR>
<BR>
I hope to see you there.<BR>
<BR>
    Gordon Horne<BR>
    Host, Traveller Deckplans Design Contest<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:37:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee<BR>
<BR>
We are having a great time at BayCon!  Wish you were all here...<BR>
<BR>
Lady Julissa Myal haut-D'Bari, IISS<BR>
aka Kiri Aradia Morgan<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:55:49 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Judges Guild lives?<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> We hope to debut City State of the Invincible Overlord for GRIP at GenCon 2000, if all goes well, we other products to follow.<BR>
<BR>
Just so long as you're aware that the JG Traveller sectors have<BR>
been 'excommunicated' and replaced with the material in<BR>
Atlas of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:49:49 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: No subject was specified.<BR>
<BR>
But don't forget as technology gets more main stream (ie consumer<BR>
orientated) the cost goes down just as manufacturing costs go down when<BR>
you produce more.<BR>
<BR>
As for test equipment (TE) - most of the TE we use has much more<BR>
capability for the same cost then 2 years ago.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Test equipment which I used about 3 years ago which cost about $500K<BR>
will<BR>
cost about $100M in 2 years, mainly due to the increased clock speeds<BR>
and<BR>
other performance issues. Project this out over the next hundred years<BR>
to<BR>
get to the really high tech levels and you have some extremely expensive<BR>
<BR>
stuff.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Perhaps the existence of megacorporations is required at the high TLs<BR>
to<BR>
afford the R&D expenses required alone. Maybe only a few facilities<BR>
exist<BR>
which can produce the really high TL stuff, just due to the expense of<BR>
the<BR>
equipment. So interstellar transport of the stuff produced is the only<BR>
viable way to run things. On the other hand, this may be a good<BR>
justification of the slower pace of technology advancement in the OTU:<BR>
faster is just too expensive, particularly without an extremely high<BR>
population on a planet.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:04:44 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Essentially correct (IMHO), but if it had been the US carrier <BR>
>> force destroyed at Midway (ForEx) then the USN now has to pay _huge_<BR>
>> logistical costs to "island-hop" into even the outer perimeter<BR>
>> of the Japanese defenses - and those logistical costs will mean<BR>
>> much greater times to achieve ends and/or lost battles/campaigns<BR>
>> in the process. <BR>
>><BR>
>>   It might very well have led to either a tremendously long drawn<BR>
>> out war or the progressive nuking of each Japanese major naval<BR>
>> base in turn as the final advance got under way...<BR>
><BR>
>Slight problem. We *couldn't* have nuked each Japanese major naval base<BR>
>as went along.<BR>
><BR>
>After Nagasaki we had either one more bomb or *no* more bombs, with the<BR>
>next one in production being *months* from completion. That's one of<BR>
>the reasons that we didn't try the "do a demonstration shot" bit (which<BR>
>*was* actually proposed).<BR>
><BR>
>It wasn't until the end of 1945 that we had any sort of "stockpile" of nukes.<BR>
<BR>
  One assumes that given a disaster at Midway that the Bomb program would<BR>
have been prodded with serial production in mind; otherwise we're implying<BR>
a stunning lack of foresight and communications amongst decision-makers.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: "Terra falls, the Sollies collapse - done deal!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:56:23 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT: <BR>
...<BR>
>Moreover I'm not so sure that 'lack of intelligence' is really<BR>
>an issue. The US could have invaded the home islands using<BR>
>resources whose locations were known. (Alaska for example).<BR>
>Japan simply did not have the oil, etc. they would have needed to<BR>
>fly enough planes to bomb into the ocean all the ships the<BR>
>US could have built.<BR>
<BR>
  The effort and length of time would increase dramatically, the question<BR>
being whether or not the US would decide to settle rather than continue a<BR>
seemingly interminable fight.<BR>
<BR>
  At no point did the Japanese leadership believe that they could stop the<BR>
US from winning a war of indefinite length, let alone take the war to the<BR>
USN's roots.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav - what _were_ the Rats smoking when they decided to fight the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:56:51 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Midway What-if's <BR>
<BR>
>From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
>Subject: Re: [OT] Midway What-if's (was re: Political Battleships)<BR>
...<BR>
>Somebody has even done a webpage detailing the exact scenario you described,<BR>
>and the Japanese STILL gets runned-over by the US.  I'll post the address<BR>
>when I find it.<BR>
<BR>
  ISTR it being off the (recently moved?) Nihon Kaigun site; AFAIC, the<BR>
basic "conclusion" is seriously GIGO'd - they ignore the "what would<BR>
have happened in-between, and what this causes politically, and what <BR>
the new strategic landscape becomes".<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav - IIRC, the 5FW wargame victory conditions allow for the 3I to<BR>
acknowledge that territorial losses to the OC may be necessary if far<BR>
worse losses are in the realm of possibility (i.e., if the Zho's & their<BR>
pets have a big VP advantage). Losing most or even all of three or four<BR>
sub-sectors is an embarrassment to the Iridium Throne (and please accept<BR>
our fine regards for submitting your resignations...), but having a new<BR>
frontier at the Corridor bottle-neck enforced by arms couldn't be risked.<BR>
<BR>
Not that any of the Zho's necessarily imagined _that_ on their best days.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:05:07 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: TML Baycon party....<BR>
<BR>
Well, Doug wanted a "Nyah, Nyay, we are having more fun than you<BR>
guys" post on the TML party Sat night at BayCon here in San Jose,<BR>
CA and I am the first one on the net afterward so....<BR>
<BR>
The usual suspects showed up.  A couple of people (I won't try<BR>
and get all the names, Doug can do that later) show up dressed<BR>
as scouts and Doug had a very military looking unform (with a<BR>
very realistic looking toy gun).  There was a stuff penguin<BR>
that attacked one person and was held at gunpoint in reprisal.<BR>
There was too much food, and there was much discussion of issue<BR>
Traveller related (which I think I can objectively state showed<BR>
how right all the positions I have taken on the TML have been :-)<BR>
and some weren't (eg, crimes are solved because criminals are<BR>
dumb, plans never work as well as they looked on paper, what<BR>
is the military mindset, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
Much fun was had.  Don't you wish you were there.....<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:06:14 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
>     Talking about Vargr Physiology, the other day I took my dog out for a<BR>
>walk & due to the heat, she was wearing "Cool Paws".  And, as the Vargr do<BR>
>not, as a rule wear shoes, could not a smart merchant sell them "Cool Paws"<BR>
>intended for large dogs?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure about that.  Every illo I've seen have shown them<BR>
in boot or something....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:15:55 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
<BR>
At 9:20 PM -0500 5/27/00, Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
>"LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in accelerating<BR>
>lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.  A working Tractor<BR>
>beam is<BR>
>expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
<BR>
That's like 90 m/s or 324 km/hr.  That is actually an impressive<BR>
lawnmower.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:23:10 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Ship Type Codes<BR>
<BR>
I'm currently involved in putting some Java classes together to model High<BR>
Guard ships,<BR>
and I've run into somethng I've never noticed before. Ship Type codes are a<BR>
mess.<BR>
<BR>
Looking at the High Guard Ship Type Codes, the code "BB" which I always<BR>
thought stood for<BR>
"Battleship" comes out to mean one of "Battle Battle" "Battle Boat" or "Boat<BR>
Battle" depending on whther you read the Primary Type before or after the<BR>
Qualifier<BR>
<BR>
Order is something else that is not obvious from the rules, though the<BR>
example CE for Close Escort implies Qualifier should be the first position<BR>
in the code, but is this always the case ?<BR>
<BR>
Amd what about an SDB ? what code should it have ? BB (Battle Boat) or BW<BR>
(Battle Barge) or what ?<BR>
<BR>
I also thought 'DD' was a plain ordinary Destroyer, but again this reads as<BR>
"Destroyer Destroyer", though I suppose that makes sense.<BR>
<BR>
I'm thinking that rather than trying to model the actual ship type table, I<BR>
should model only valid combinations of codes, because some (such as 'UB'<BR>
"Unpowered Battle", or 'TY' "Troop Yacht" ) don't seem to make much sense<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
If anyone can shed light on the table, please comment. I'm especially<BR>
interested in eliminating invalid codes, for instance does it make sense to<BR>
have an "Armoured Destroyer"<BR>
or a Battle Merchant ?, or is the Qualifier "Armoured' only valid for<BR>
non-military ships ?<BR>
<BR>
And what about I _and_ J for Intruder ?<BR>
Or the duplication of Merchant (A _and_ M).  among others ?<BR>
<BR>
Shoud one choose PA over PM for Provincial Merchant ?<BR>
<BR>
And what if I want just a lab-ship or a normal yacht ?<BR>
Can I leave out the qualifier or must a Yacht be Fast, Light, Heavy or<BR>
Battle or something ?<BR>
What's a Battle Lab or Transport Refinery (TG) or an Escort Escort (EE) ?<BR>
<BR>
Doc "Escort Escort" Smith anyone ?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, getting a bit carried away now.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone got a list of valid codes ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2518<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v73.12) with ESMTP; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:20:14 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:19:49 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id FAA27973;<BR>
	Sun, 28 May 2000 05:19:09 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 28 May 2000 05:19:03 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id FAA27933<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:19:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:19:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005280919.FAA27933@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2518<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2519</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/28/00 10:16:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 28 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2519<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: TML Baycon party....<BR>
TML Baycon party....<BR>
TML Baycon party....<BR>
Re: Gaming Philosophy (was Re: Speed of Psionics)<BR>
RE: TML Baycon party....<BR>
Re: Jump Physics<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
Re: Ship Type Codes<BR>
Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
Re: Ship Type Codes<BR>
Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
Re: Re : Base Codes<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Math for Dummies?<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:24:29 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Baycon party....<BR>
<BR>
The Scout'd be me :)  Todd & Tim were sorta' Scouts as well, but didn't have<BR>
much in the way of costume.  Pictures will be up after the Con is over,<BR>
along with the Ditzie pic that I did for the party.  I'm sure all will enjoy<BR>
;)<BR>
<BR>
For now, after Eye of Argon, it's time to collapse into bed.<BR>
<BR>
Later,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of David P.<BR>
> Summers<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 2:05 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: TML Baycon party....<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Well, Doug wanted a "Nyah, Nyay, we are having more fun than you<BR>
> guys" post on the TML party Sat night at BayCon here in San Jose,<BR>
> CA and I am the first one on the net afterward so....<BR>
><BR>
> The usual suspects showed up.  A couple of people (I won't try<BR>
> and get all the names, Doug can do that later) show up dressed<BR>
> as scouts and Doug had a very military looking unform (with a<BR>
> very realistic looking toy gun).  There was a stuff penguin<BR>
> that attacked one person and was held at gunpoint in reprisal.<BR>
> There was too much food, and there was much discussion of issue<BR>
> Traveller related (which I think I can objectively state showed<BR>
> how right all the positions I have taken on the TML have been :-)<BR>
> and some weren't (eg, crimes are solved because criminals are<BR>
> dumb, plans never work as well as they looked on paper, what<BR>
> is the military mindset, etc.).<BR>
><BR>
> Much fun was had.  Don't you wish you were there.....<BR>
> ______________________________<BR>
> summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in<BR>
> California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:28:15 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: TML Baycon party....<BR>
<BR>
>Well, Doug wanted a "Nyah, Nyay, we are having more fun than you<BR>
>guys" post on the TML party Sat night at BayCon here in San Jose,<BR>
>CA and I am the first one on the net afterward so....<BR>
><BR>
>The usual suspects showed up.  A couple of people (I won't try<BR>
>and get all the names, Doug can do that later) show up dressed<BR>
>as scouts and Doug had a very military looking unform (with a<BR>
>very realistic looking toy gun).  There was a stuff penguin<BR>
>that attacked one person and was held at gunpoint in reprisal.<BR>
>There was too much food, and there was much discussion of issue<BR>
>Traveller related (which I think I can objectively state showed<BR>
>how right all the positions I have taken on the TML have been :-)<BR>
>and some weren't (eg, crimes are solved because criminals are<BR>
>dumb, plans never work as well as they looked on paper, what<BR>
>is the military mindset, etc.).<BR>
><BR>
>Much fun was had.  Don't you wish you were there.....<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and how could I forget the ambassador from the planet<BR>
Mongo (after all, he gave me a ride home!).<BR>
<BR>
(and that should be "stuffed penguin".... )<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:29:29 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: TML Baycon party....<BR>
<BR>
>Well, Doug wanted a "Nyah, Nyay, we are having more fun than you<BR>
>guys" post on the TML party Sat night at BayCon here in San Jose,<BR>
>CA and I am the first one on the net afterward so....<BR>
><BR>
>The usual suspects showed up.  A couple of people (I won't try<BR>
>and get all the names, Doug can do that later) show up dressed<BR>
>as scouts and Doug had a very military looking unform (with a<BR>
>very realistic looking toy gun).  There was a stuff penguin<BR>
>that attacked one person and was held at gunpoint in reprisal.<BR>
>There was too much food, and there was much discussion of issue<BR>
>Traveller related (which I think I can objectively state showed<BR>
>how right all the positions I have taken on the TML have been :-)<BR>
>and some weren't (eg, crimes are solved because criminals are<BR>
>dumb, plans never work as well as they looked on paper, what<BR>
>is the military mindset, etc.).<BR>
><BR>
>Much fun was had.  Don't you wish you were there.....<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and how could I forget the ambassador from the planet<BR>
Mongo (after all, he gave me a ride home!).<BR>
<BR>
(and that should be "stuffed penguin".... )<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:43:42 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gaming Philosophy (was Re: Speed of Psionics)<BR>
<BR>
> > Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> What I said is that I don't believe that the Referee ought to make<BR>
> up things that are covered by either the rules or reality. <BR>
<BR>
Reality is everything and that covers quite a bit ;)  Any GM that tries<BR>
to run a perfect simulation of reality is doomed to fail.  More<BR>
importantly they would waste a lot of time trying and create a boring<BR>
game, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, if a GM is so inclined they could realistically calculate<BR>
transmission time for a radio message (or psionics, meson, or<BR>
whatever).  But is it really that important?  Would the characters be<BR>
able to perceive those minute details?<BR>
<BR>
I would much rather have a GM that would tell me the response time is "a<BR>
moment or two" off-the-cuff than a GM that stops the game to calculate<BR>
the time as "4.287 seconds to reply".<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, exact calculations might necessary sometimes.  If so, it should be<BR>
worked out ahead of time if possible - not done in the middle of the<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> This is why I prefer games with fewer rules.<BR>
<BR>
But with fewer rules the need to look up/calculate or make up stuff is<BR>
greater.  I would prefer the latter, as a good GM can give a fair<BR>
estimate.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I am not saying<BR>
> that more rules are better what I am saying is: The Referee and<BR>
> the players _should_ usually use the rules set as written or as<BR>
> changed by prior written modification by the Referee. The Referee<BR>
> ought not to just make up things as she goes along very often or<BR>
> the players are really listening to a story, not playing in a<BR>
> game.<BR>
<BR>
I don't agree with that last statement.  The only way the players are<BR>
just listening to a story is if they aren't participating. <BR>
Non-participation (a.k.a. railroading) can happen even if you are<BR>
following the rules to the letter.  <BR>
<BR>
It is possible to play a game without any prewritten rules whatsoever. <BR>
The GM and the players could all make it up as they go along.  Even if<BR>
they decide to play by deciding all uncertain events with "the<BR>
high-roller wins" using 1d6, it's still a game.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh of course. The point I'm making is not what the Ref may<BR>
> do it is what the Ref ought to do. There is a big difference.<BR>
> To me the players ought to get a chance to play using the<BR>
> written rules, or at least a close Referee modified facsimile<BR>
> of them, or they are not really playing the game. YMMV<BR>
<BR>
They might not be playing that specific form of the game but they are<BR>
playing it, even if it is a variant form.  I think the setting is far<BR>
more important than any rules.  And I even think a good game-session is<BR>
more important than the setting.  A game with outstanding rules &<BR>
setting isn't really a game if it isn't played, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> To me the speed of sound is quite slow and having Psionics travel<BR>
> at the speed of sound would be a vast change in the rules.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, that was my point.  The GM can say it travels at the speed of<BR>
sound, 1 meter per hour, or that all penguins in the game are purple. <BR>
The specific example doesn't really matter.  If a player can't deal with<BR>
that, they should find a new game (group of players/GM); not argue<BR>
physics or quote rules.<BR>
<BR>
But that is just my philosophy.<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
I'm just here to play the game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:44:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Baycon party....<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 28 May 2000, Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The Scout'd be me :)  Todd & Tim were sorta' Scouts as well, but didn't have<BR>
> much in the way of costume.  Pictures will be up after the Con is over,<BR>
> along with the Ditzie pic that I did for the party.  I'm sure all will enjoy<BR>
> ;)<BR>
> <BR>
Hey, I'm a scout too, it's just that I was wearing more dressy stuff.<BR>
Ever since Lanthy slipped me that imperial warrant my life has just not<BR>
been the same.<BR>
<BR>
"Well, Julissa... I hate to say this... but there are certain things that<BR>
seem to be... different. You know what I mean?"<BR>
<BR>
(Damn, Gwendi was right, he really is a clone, now what the hell do I<BR>
do....)<BR>
<BR>
"Uh, Lanthy... you trust me, right?"<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:03:08 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Jump Physics<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, I like your theory of jumpspace (the squashed 3D perspective)!<BR>
<BR>
Hahh! Finally, some feedback! Thank you so much!<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:40:57 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> For example, could you take the photons, split them, and then fire one set<BR>
> towards Alpha Centauri. Four years later, the colonists collect them,<BR>
> reverse their spin, and send morse code back to earth base...is this<BR>
> possible?<BR>
<BR>
Hm. thinking about it: You don't know the spin of either photon,<BR>
initially. If you measure the spin of either photon, you do this by<BR>
changing it.<BR>
<BR>
What if you measure both photons' spins at predetermined times?<BR>
<BR>
Say, there is photon A here on Earth (no - wait, on Terra, we're on a<BR>
Traveller ML here...) and photon B<BR>
on Capital. Both sides agree to to measure the spin in regular<BR>
intervals- say, A is measured every uneven second (1,3,5) and B is<BR>
measured every even second (2,4,6). <BR>
<BR>
You protocolize every result, and then transfer the information by<BR>
establihed communication methods- i.e, via Xboat. So you know that in<BR>
second two, the spin was (say) left, but according to the results of the<BR>
measuring at second 1, it should have been right. If you always<BR>
protocolize the results, you can predict what the measurings must be<BR>
like, and any deviations from the expected are communication attempts.<BR>
<BR>
An instantaneous, unjammable communication device that is not<BR>
range-limited. Wow. <BR>
<BR>
Where's the hole in this idea?<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 14:02:05 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
> An instantaneous, unjammable communication device that is not<BR>
> range-limited. Wow.<BR>
> <BR>
> Where's the hole in this idea?<BR>
<BR>
Storing the photon in a box?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 14:31:38 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
> What is GRIP? GRIP (Generic Role-playing for Internet Players) is a set of<BR>
> software tools that lets you play ANY traditional paper and pencil RPG over<BR>
> the Internet or a LAN, with a Game Master and up to 8 players.<BR>
<BR>
So character sheets etc (on the player side) are *completely*<BR>
customizeable?<BR>
<BR>
And it is possible to add *any* tables/whatever to the GM side?<BR>
<BR>
Could I create a map on the GM side, then easily add/remove icons (PCs,<BR>
NPCs) on the map and show the map to the players?<BR>
<BR>
Does the Traveller edition of the box contain all parts of the generic<BR>
program? In other words, could I use the Traveller version (after some<BR>
work) for the T4 edition of Traveller, GURPS, Rolemaster, whatever?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:10:25 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:11:22 -0700<BR>
> From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
> <BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 10:49 AM, jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I am trying to make a list of different oddball technologies that might<BR>
> > be used by aliens (or humaniti cultures), but the current material won't<BR>
> > take me very far.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm drooling, you /do/ plan on posting this here or on the web, right?<BR>
> <BR>
> > Any suggestions and/or ideas?<BR>
> <BR>
> I have some pet faves from literature, like collapsar (black hole) jumps<BR>
> from Forever War, Alderson Drives from Mote in God's Eye, Psionic Folding<BR>
> like in Dune, etc. I have some of these books still, and could snip<BR>
> appropriate sections dealing with the technology for you.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
	Two links I might suggest are:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sover.net/~geoffk/eder_transport_list.txt : A list of<BR>
proposed and real space drives<BR>
<BR>
http://gurpsnet.sjgames.com/Archive/Vehicles/ : The GURPSNet archives<BR>
contains a number of interesting "Alternatives", even if most are not<BR>
Traveller, they may spark some ideas. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:08:06 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Type Codes<BR>
<BR>
On 28 May 00, at 21:23, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm currently involved in putting some Java classes together to model High<BR>
> Guard ships, and I've run into somethng I've never noticed before. Ship Type<BR>
> codes are a mess.<BR>
<BR>
The problem you have encountered is not a fault of High Guard, its a fault <BR>
of the US Navy. The HG codes are more or less a direct copy of the USN <BR>
classification system, which is not entirely logical (ForEx CV which means <BR>
"Carrier" is literally "Cruiser, Aviation"). One rule of thumb is that when you <BR>
get two letters the same (eg DD), it represents the "Parent Type" for that <BR>
designation and you ignore the second letter. However this breaks down <BR>
with things such as BB and CC (Which mean Battleship and Battlecruiser <BR>
respectively). Anyway, the best solution I've found is to wing it (Hard code <BR>
some of the more common ones and allow the user to add their own).<BR>
<BR>
However here is a list of some of the more useful USN codes:<BR>
BB = Battleship<BR>
BM = Monitor<BR>
CC = Battlecruiser<BR>
CB = Large Cruiser (Cruiser, Big)<BR>
CA = Heavy/Armoured Cruiser<BR>
CL = Light Cruiser<BR>
CM = Minelaying Cruiser<BR>
CG = Missile Cruiser<BR>
CV = Carrier<BR>
DD = Destroyer<BR>
DE = Destroyer Escort<BR>
DL = Destroyer Leader (a big destroyer)<BR>
DM = Minelaying Destroyer<BR>
FF = Frigate<BR>
EE = Corvette<BR>
AP = Troop Transport<BR>
AH = Hospital Ship<BR>
AK = Cargo Transport<BR>
AO = Fuel Transport<BR>
AM = Minesweeper<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:09:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
> Do any of you programmers out there have any QBasic code that generates<BR>
> a WBS sector file?  Or can anyone email me the chart for generating the<BR>
> PBG, Base Code and Satalite Code?<BR>
<BR>
The Satellite code is there purely to signify whether the mainworld is a<BR>
satellite of a Gas Giant. If the code is 'S' then the mainworld is a<BR>
satellite. If the code is 'N' then the mainworld is not a satellite. If the<BR>
code is left blank then the mainworld could be asatellite.<BR>
<BR>
If a mainworld could be a satellite then whether it is or not is defined  by<BR>
whether a gas giant has been placed in the habitable zone during system<BR>
generation. If one has then the mainworld will be a satellite.<BR>
<BR>
What is it that you're trying to do? H&E can convert SEC, UWP and Galactic<BR>
SEC files to WBS format.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:07:50 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Type Codes<BR>
<BR>
A list of RL ship and boat designators compiled by William G. Sadler can be <BR>
found at the following URL:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.academic.uofs.edu/faculty/gramborw/atav/boats.htm<BR>
<BR>
It seems very complete, including craft designations used by the Army, Air <BR>
Force and Coast Guard as well as Navy. Note that these are all US services; <BR>
other countries undoubtedly use other designators.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:51:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
> The Satellite code is there purely to signify whether the mainworld is a<BR>
> satellite of a Gas Giant. If the code is 'S' then the mainworld is a<BR>
> satellite. If the code is 'N' then the mainworld is not a satellite. If the<BR>
> code is left blank then the mainworld could be asatellite.<BR>
> <BR>
> If a mainworld could be a satellite then whether it is or not is defined  by<BR>
> whether a gas giant has been placed in the habitable zone during system<BR>
> generation. If one has then the mainworld will be a satellite.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, Regina is the only world in the Spinward Marches with an 'S'<BR>
code (please correct me if I'm wrong here). Does this mean that S and N <BR>
are only used when an 'official' work has specified system details?<BR>
Otherwise it's left blank?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:59:55 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
<BR>
> Two links I might suggest are:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.sover.net/~geoffk/eder_transport_list.txt : A list of<BR>
> proposed and real space drives<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, this is a wonderful list. (I'm a little sorry that the Bloater<BR>
Drive from _Bill the Galactic Hero_ isn't here, but I guess that's<BR>
to be expected. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:47:05 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Base Codes<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 27 May 2000 22:08:43 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > So what differentiates between an "N" base and a "J" base?<BR>
> <BR>
> My list of codes (from Second Survey) doesn't have J. It lists N as<BR>
> being for *Imperial* Navy bases. J sounds like the "generic" code for<BR>
> "pocket empire" type naval bases.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I thought.  Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
When you're in love, you're at the mercy of a stranger.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:52:03 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Is there any possible way to kick Legate Legion off of this ML?  <BR>
>While he does sometimes have useful things to contribute, this <BR>
>crap combined with the "GURPS fans should be killed" thread of a <BR>
>few months ago have really gone *far* beyond the bounds of <BR>
>reasonable discourse.<BR>
<BR>
  A cynic could point out that having to argue (not terribly <BR>
persuasively) that one is better than Clif/Leroy/Legate is a<BR>
compelling argument that the individual in question is pretty<BR>
distasteful regardless, and a punishment in itself :><BR>
<BR>
 My vote? Let's see if we can trade Legate and get Leroy back.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:49:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of CONs, is anyone planning to go to GENCON this year?  I am going<BR>
to try very hard to make it.  GRIP is going to have a Traveller booth with<BR>
Marc Miller, besides the games they will be running.<BR>
<BR>
Hope to see you many of you there!<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:42 AM<BR>
Subject: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>We are having a great time at BayCon!  Wish you were all here...<BR>
><BR>
>Lady Julissa Myal haut-D'Bari, IISS<BR>
>aka Kiri Aradia Morgan<BR>
><BR>
>***************************************************************************<BR>
***<BR>
>Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
><BR>
>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
>Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:02:03 +0100<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Alas, as noted elsewhere, nuclear dampers affect the *weak* nuclear<BR>
> >> force. If I remember correctly, meson decay involves the *strong*<BR>
> >> nuclear force. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hm...they do?  I seem to recall them modifying the strong force. In fact,<BR>
> > they have to modify the strong force, since many of the interactions they<BR>
> > modify (such as fusion) don't involve the weak force.<BR>
> <BR>
> Check again, last time we discussed dampers the folks in the science<BR>
> biz said fusion *did* involve the weak force.<BR>
<BR>
The first step in the classic proton - proton chain fusion reaction<BR>
is:<BR>
	proton + proton -> duterium nucleus + electron + neutrino<BR>
<BR>
This is collision requiring a weak interaction.<BR>
<BR>
The alternative CNO chain has two weak interactions, but these are both<BR>
decays:<BR>
<BR>
	N13 -> C13 + electron + neutrino<BR>
	O15 -> N15 + electron + neutrino<BR>
<BR>
However, all the collisions are strong force interactions - which is why this<BR>
reaction dominates in the denser (and hotter) stars, especially the newer<BR>
stars that actually have a significant amount of carbon in them.<BR>
<BR>
Weak force manipulation should be sufficient to make fusion a more usable<BR>
power source.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division<BR>
"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:55:10 +0100<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Math for Dummies?<BR>
<BR>
Loren<BR>
<BR>
to add three probabilities, p1, p2 and p3;<BR>
<BR>
	1 - ((1 - p1) * (1 - p2) * (1 - p3))<BR>
<BR>
so if p1 and p2 are 50% (0.5) ad p3 is 30% (0.3), you have:<BR>
<BR>
	1 - ((1 - 0.5) * (1- 0.5) * (1 - 0.3))<BR>
=	1 - (0.5 * 0.5 * 0.7)<BR>
=	1 - 0.175<BR>
=	0.825 or 82.5%<BR>
<BR>
That's the chance of at least one of the three events happening.<BR>
<BR>
The chance of all three is:<BR>
<BR>
	p1 * p2 * p3<BR>
	<BR>
	= 0.075 or 7.5%<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division<BR>
"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:14:42 +0100<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm reminded of the air base someplace well inland (Colorado?) got one<BR>
> number wrong on a requistion shortly after the switch to a unified<BR>
> parts numbering system for all the armed services...<BR>
<BR>
A friend of mine ordered some disinfectant for his unit's toilets.<BR>
<BR>
The guy at stores probably didn't think that 20 *drums* of disinfectant was<BR>
an unreasonable request from a regiment. Unfortunately, my friend is a<BR>
civilian contractor and his unit is a group of six people. He claims to have<BR>
expected 20 *bottles* fortheir their one toilet.<BR>
<BR>
In true military tradition, the excess was retained to be swapped when there<BR>
was somehing he needed that stores couldn't/wouldn't supply.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division<BR>
"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:36:18 +0100<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 7:11 AM<BR>
> Subject: RE: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Straying back to the Traveller meson gun design topic then, we don't need<BR>
> > four beams for a meson weapon, but rather just two, right?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well if to want to *guarantee* that annihilation will take place at a<BR>
> certain point in space, you do still need two intersecting beams (and thus <BR>
> 4 progenitors). Remember that as the Pi 0 mesons are uncharged there is no<BR>
> mutual attraction between the anti-particles to draw them together for<BR>
> annihilation. However, at the point of intersection there will be<BR>
> collisions due to the different vectors of the particles, so guaranteeing<BR>
> that the vast majority of the interactions you want occur within the<BR>
> target.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know if it helps, but the meson beam is focussed on its target. At<BR>
the focus of the beam, the particle density should be higher and thus result<BR>
in more interactions.<BR>
<BR>
The angle between the two beams is going to be so low at 10,000km that<BR>
starting the beams an extra 100m apart is not likely to help much.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I'm not sure of the geometry of that last statement.<BR>
<BR>
Plus the rules only require a single accelerator tunnel, so I'm not sure<BR>
where even a single pair of electron/positron beams comes from<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division<BR>
"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2519<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (rly-yb05.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.5]) by air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Sun, 28 May 2000 13:16:25 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 28 May 2000 13:15:46 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA46320;<BR>
	Sun, 28 May 2000 13:15:04 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 28 May 2000 13:14:51 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA46244<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 28 May 2000 13:14:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:14:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005281714.NAA46244@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2519<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2520</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/28/00 7:36:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 28 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2520<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
Medical Technology<BR>
Re: Medical Technology<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
Re: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
GT: Alien Races #3 (was RE: TML Baycon party....)<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
[www] 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Jump Limits<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Ditzie Spofulam (Was: GT: Alien Races #3)<BR>
Re: Jump Limits<BR>
Gearhead Alert: New design program<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:12:23 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> > An instantaneous, unjammable communication device that is not<BR>
> > range-limited. Wow.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Where's the hole in this idea?<BR>
> <BR>
> Storing the photon in a box?<BR>
<BR>
What about some kind of "magnetic bottle", ring shaped, that lets the<BR>
photon run around and around and...<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily "magnetic", of course. Another two centuries, and they<BR>
might find a way to put the photon into a bottle without affecting its<BR>
spin.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Still wondering if it might be possible this way,<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:58:03 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:14 PM 5/28/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Speaking of CONs, is anyone planning to go to GENCON this year?<BR>
<BR>
I will definitely be there.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:29:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
>As I recall, Regina is the only world in the Spinward Marches with an 'S'<BR>
>code (please correct me if I'm wrong here). Does this mean that S and N<BR>
>are only used when an 'official' work has specified system details?<BR>
>Otherwise it's left blank?<BR>
<BR>
It can be used whenever you want. It simply allows the user some control<BR>
over whether a mainworld is a satellite. It would be nice if collectively we<BR>
could confirm which mainworlds are satellites for the whole Imperium. The<BR>
WBS files could be updated to reflect that information.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:53:17 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Medical Technology<BR>
<BR>
Seen on the net:<BR>
<BR>
"Skin, Gum and Bones<BR>
<BR>
Using engineered skin and gum tissue cells, researchers at the University<BR>
of <BR>
Michigan School of Dentistry have produced complete bones with the same<BR>
hard <BR>
outer coating, spongy interior and marrow core as naturally produced bone. <BR>
The researchers used the method to replace large areas of missing bone in <BR>
living rats, raising the prospect of simpler, less painful bone grafts in <BR>
human patients. <BR>
 <BR>
Current bone grafting methods involve harvesting a patient's bone marrow<BR>
with <BR>
a long needle or surgically removing a piece of bone, typically from the<BR>
hip. <BR>
With the new method, which is still in developmental stages, a tiny bit of <BR>
skin or gum tissue is removed, cut into even smaller pieces, and placed in<BR>
a <BR>
culture dish. The cultured cells are then engineered to secrete BMP-7, a <BR>
protein that induces bone formation. The engineered cells are seeded onto <BR>
collagen sponges, which are placed in the area where bone repair is needed. <BR>
<BR>
The research team tested the system on rats that had large sections of bone <BR>
missing from their skulls. New bone was produced from the rats' own skin<BR>
cells, and the skulls were almost fully healed within just four weeks.<BR>
<BR>
Source: University of Michigan, May 20, 00<BR>
Research: Bruce Rutherford, Paul Krebsbach, Keni Gu, Renny Franceschi, in <BR>
"Human Gene Therapy", May 20, 00"<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Healing Rates at Traveller Tech Levels?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 14:35:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Medical Technology<BR>
<BR>
    Traveller Canon states that the Solomani are quite a bit more advanced<BR>
than the Vilani or Zhos regarding medicine in general (And the reasoning is<BR>
impeccable).<BR>
<BR>
    Considering that we are less then 50 years from true anagathic<BR>
treatments, and less than 20 years away from body part cloning, I'd say that<BR>
medicine in the 57th. Century, at least on Terra, would be insanely good.<BR>
Maybe even to the point of biological computers.<BR>
<BR>
Even advanced bioengineering feats first suggested by TC at T.L. 18-21 are<BR>
real possibilities now, and are currently being experimented with.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: "TML" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 11:53 AM<BR>
Subject: Medical Technology<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Seen on the net:<BR>
><BR>
> "Skin, Gum and Bones<BR>
><BR>
> Using engineered skin and gum tissue cells, researchers at the University<BR>
> of<BR>
> Michigan School of Dentistry have produced complete bones with the same<BR>
> hard<BR>
> outer coating, spongy interior and marrow core as naturally produced bone.<BR>
> The researchers used the method to replace large areas of missing bone in<BR>
> living rats, raising the prospect of simpler, less painful bone grafts in<BR>
> human patients.<BR>
><BR>
> Current bone grafting methods involve harvesting a patient's bone marrow<BR>
> with<BR>
> a long needle or surgically removing a piece of bone, typically from the<BR>
> hip.<BR>
> With the new method, which is still in developmental stages, a tiny bit of<BR>
> skin or gum tissue is removed, cut into even smaller pieces, and placed in<BR>
> a<BR>
> culture dish. The cultured cells are then engineered to secrete BMP-7, a<BR>
> protein that induces bone formation. The engineered cells are seeded onto<BR>
> collagen sponges, which are placed in the area where bone repair is<BR>
needed.<BR>
><BR>
> The research team tested the system on rats that had large sections of<BR>
bone<BR>
> missing from their skulls. New bone was produced from the rats' own skin<BR>
> cells, and the skulls were almost fully healed within just four weeks.<BR>
><BR>
> Source: University of Michigan, May 20, 00<BR>
> Research: Bruce Rutherford, Paul Krebsbach, Keni Gu, Renny Franceschi, in<BR>
> "Human Gene Therapy", May 20, 00"<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Healing Rates at Traveller Tech Levels?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:02:48 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Some Canonical Evidence:<BR>
<BR>
CT<BR>
<BR>
Regina is SubSector Capitol and possibly Sector<BR>
Capitol.<BR>
[Spinward Marches Campaign p 19] (circa 100 (?) - 1110 (?)) <BR>
<BR>
Regina and Mora are both listed as Subsector<BR>
Capitols and Sector Capitol is not mentioned.<BR>
[Sup 3] (circa 1105)<BR>
Never less I assume that the Spinward Marches _had_<BR>
a Sector Capitol in 1105, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani Embassy is on Regina which may suggest Regina<BR>
is Sector Capitol or may merely suggest Regina is<BR>
more convenient. [JTAS 9 5FW War Issue] (circa 1109)<BR>
<BR>
MT<BR>
<BR>
Regina is Sector capitol<BR>
[Reb SB p 71] (circa mid 1116)<BR>
<BR>
Regina is Subsector Capitol. Mora is Sector Capitol.<BR>
[Imp Enc. p 96-7] (circa 1117, arguably circa 1119)<BR>
<BR>
Regina identified as faction capitol. <BR>
[Reb SB inside front cover] (circa 1120)<BR>
It is unclear if this map identifies the de jurre<BR>
capitols or the de facto capitols, arguably Regina<BR>
(as Norris's seat) could be de facto capitol even if<BR>
Mora was de jurre capitol.<BR>
<BR>
TNE<BR>
<BR>
Norris makes official Domain proclamations from Regina<BR>
however it is unclear if it is Sector capitol<BR>
[Survival Margin] (circa 1120-1123)<BR>
<BR>
Norris makes official Domain proclamations from<BR>
Mora however it is unclear if it is Sector capitol<BR>
[Sur Mar] (circa 1123- 1127)<BR>
<BR>
Mora is arguably Domain capitol. Norris's stationary says<BR>
"Domain of Deneb <BR>
Office of the Archduke<BR>
Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
Giyachi, Mora/Spinward Marches"<BR>
[Sur Mar p 99] (circa 276-1123)<BR>
<BR>
Regina is Subsector Capitol<BR>
[TNE Rules p 172] (circa 1200)<BR>
<BR>
Regina is identified in text as Sector Capitol. _However_ <BR>
the comments in the world listing for Regina say that it <BR>
is merely subsector capitol. The comments in the world listing <BR>
for Mora say that it is Sector Capitol.<BR>
[Regency SB] (dual stats for both 1117 and for 1200)<BR>
<BR>
Mora is Domain Capitol<BR>
[Reg. SB] (circa 1200) <BR>
<BR>
T4 N/A set in the wrong era<BR>
<BR>
GURPS: Trav [a variant]<BR>
<BR>
Mora is Domain Capitol <BR>
[GT Behind the Claw p 111] (circa 1120 Alternate Timeline)<BR>
Regina is Subsector Capitol (p 81)<BR>
Sector Capitol is not mentioned.<BR>
<BR>
The canonical evidence is somewhat contradictory. If you <BR>
believe it all the story would go something like this.<BR>
<BR>
1) Regina is Regina Subsector Capitol<BR>
2) Mora is Mora Subsector Capitol<BR>
<BR>
1105: Either Regina or Mora is Sector Capitol.<BR>
1116: Regina is Sector Capitol<BR>
Early 1117: Regina is Sector Capitol<BR>
Later in 1117: Mora is Sector Capitol<BR>
1120: Mora is Domain Capitol<BR>
1200: Regina is Sector Capitol and Mora is Domain<BR>
Capitol.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 03:00:27 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
<BR>
> A small number of alternative (not commonly used)<BR>
technologies are<BR>
> presented in FF&S2. Most of them are drive systems<BR>
(solar sails, exotic<BR>
> rockets, etc).<BR>
><BR>
> What other technologies are feasible, interesting,<BR>
published in other SF<BR>
> sources, and/or possible?<BR>
><BR>
> I am trying to make a list of different oddball<BR>
technologies that might<BR>
> be used by aliens (or humaniti cultures), but the<BR>
current material won't<BR>
> take me very far.<BR>
<BR>
There's the ZTT Drive (IIRC) from the Reality<BR>
Dysfunction.<BR>
<BR>
Hang on, now I come to think of it that drive an<BR>
amazing simularity<BR>
to Traveller. As did quite alot of the setting,<BR>
communication lags, far<BR>
traders that jump one step ahead of bancruptcy etc etc.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:25:48 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 7:10 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: High Speed Lawnmowers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > "LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in accelerating<BR>
> > lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.  A working Tractor <BR>
> > beam is expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
> <BR>
> Jordin has what can only be described as a "strange" sense of humor. :-)<BR>
<BR>
and its only ~200 mph :-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:07:42 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 9:09 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
> What is it that you're trying to do? H&E can convert SEC, UWP and Galactic<BR>
> SEC files to WBS format.<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to convert Sector Painter (My sector generator) to put out WBS<BR>
files so I can plug them into H&E to generate the Details.  Right now my<BR>
program just creats UPP's and stores them in a binary data file of my own<BR>
construction.  I also want to make it more universal so that I can us it on<BR>
other things.  However, I have never used the PBG, and am not familiar with<BR>
all the other base codes besides N, S and A.<BR>
<BR>
    Also, the satalite code code was completly new to me.  However, with<BR>
what I have learnded now I think I will just leave that to H&E to determine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:13:22 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL1 computer programming<BR>
<BR>
> That handles base code, and the G(as Giant) part of PBG. <BR>
<BR>
Isn't there a chart to determine the extended list of bases?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:17:05 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
<BR>
 >Speaking of CONs, is anyone planning to go to GENCON this year?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Me<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:23:51 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Speaking of CONs, is anyone planning to go to GENCON this year?  I am going<BR>
>  to try very hard to make it.  GRIP is going to have a Traveller booth with<BR>
>  Marc Miller, besides the games they will be running.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Hope to see you many of you there!<BR>
<BR>
I'm not only going, I'm working at it. Admittedly, the thought of missing out <BR>
on half of the con is disappointing, but you can't beat free admission and <BR>
housing. Not to mention getting into the dealer's room before the doors open <BR>
to the public. (weg)<BR>
<BR>
One of the events I _did_ manage to prereg for is the Traveller <BR>
RPGA-sponsored adventure.<BR>
<BR>
See you there.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:56:47 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Legate says:<BR>
<BR>
<< And, as the Vargr do not, as a rule wear shoes, >><BR>
<BR>
Whose rule is that? I don't remember ever stating anything like that . . .<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:33:43 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> GURPS: Trav [a variant]<BR>
><BR>
> Mora is Domain Capitol<BR>
> [GT Behind the Claw p 111] (circa 1120 Alternate Timeline)<BR>
> Regina is Subsector Capitol (p 81)<BR>
> Sector Capitol is not mentioned.<BR>
<BR>
The last line of BtC, pp.78 says that Regina is<BR>
sector and subsector capitol.  That is the only<BR>
place it says that.  The full Regina entry on a<BR>
later page says only "subsector capitol".<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:28:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
><< And, as the Vargr do not, as a rule wear shoes, >><BR>
><BR>
>Whose rule is that? I don't remember ever stating anything like that . . .<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
<BR>
>LKW<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:29:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr physiology<BR>
<BR>
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>     Talking about Vargr Physiology, the other day I took my dog out for a<BR>
>>walk & due to the heat, she was wearing "Cool Paws".  And, as the Vargr do<BR>
>>not, as a rule wear shoes, could not a smart merchant sell them "Cool<BR>
Paws"<BR>
>>intended for large dogs?<BR>
><BR>
>I'm not sure about that.  Every illo I've seen have shown them<BR>
>in boot or something....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    So then, a few smart human merchants already sold the Vargr "Cool Paws".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:57:52 -0500<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: GT: Alien Races #3 (was RE: TML Baycon party....)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff posted:<BR>
> Subject: <BR>
> <BR>
> The Scout'd be me :)  Todd & Tim were sorta' Scouts as well, but didn't have<BR>
> much in the way of costume.  Pictures will be up after the Con is over,<BR>
> along with the Ditzie pic that I did for the party.  I'm sure all will enjoy<BR>
> ;)<BR>
<BR>
This reminds me...I picked up SJG's GT: Alien Races #3 and<BR>
burst out<BR>
laughing when I first saw Ditzie with a full oytrip of<BR>
Droyne. I stopped<BR>
laughing when I realized the significance of the illo.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:39:18 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 28 May 2000 05:19:03 -0400 (EDT), "Talon"<BR>
<talon@skyenet.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I would love to get into a game with some of you guys!<BR>
<BR>
(Jeff braces for the barrage of peanuts that is sure to<BR>
follow...)<BR>
<BR>
Are you sure you don't mean "I'd love to come to GRIPs with some<BR>
of you guys!"?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:39:22 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller<BR>
Resource has posted its most recent update to<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.  <BR>
<BR>
This update features:<BR>
<BR>
 - We've made corrections to broken and missing links throughout<BR>
   the site.<BR>
<BR>
 - The FAQ, in the Information Center, has been updated.<BR>
<BR>
 - The Paragon Traveller computer adventures have been located,<BR>
   and information added to the DOS program listing. You can find<BR>
   the info, along with links, on that page from the Computer<BR>
   Connection in the Information Center.<BR>
<BR>
 - A press release from Playnet announcing an on-line multiplayer<BR>
   version of Traveller has been posted to News About Traveller<BR>
   in the Information Center.<BR>
<BR>
 - Christopher Thrash brings us a Risus conversion of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at<BR>
Freelance Traveller.  Please write to<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all of them, as we are<BR>
in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may be<BR>
temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good<BR>
will of Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our<BR>
existence, and to write for us, making our existence possible.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation<BR>
to The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to<BR>
Executive Network Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com)<BR>
for hosting services. Without organizations willing to cooperate<BR>
with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing needs, we would be unable<BR>
to bring you the articles and other resources that have made<BR>
Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on the <BR>
'net.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in <BR>
this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:50:46 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Jump Limits<BR>
<BR>
- --------------2940C2A30E8E0C205026CBD1<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
With thanks to Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     There's the ZTT Drive (IIRC) from the Reality Dysfunction.<BR>
<BR>
     Hang on, now I come to think of it that drive an amazing<BR>
     simularity to Traveller. As did quite alot of the setting,<BR>
     communication lags, far traders that jump one step ahead of<BR>
     bancruptcy etc etc.<BR>
<BR>
This reminded me of one event in these books that relates to jump<BR>
distances etc. A jump was performed at a lagrange point (* zero tidal<BR>
stress *) would this work? perhaps only for smaller ships? perhaps only<BR>
for jumping out...too small a target to hit coming out of j-space? too<BR>
much chance of convergance on emerence?<BR>
<BR>
Hey...what does happen when two ships emerge from j-space at the same<BR>
co-ords? it must happen esp. in large fleet actions...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
- --------------2940C2A30E8E0C205026CBD1<BR>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
With thanks to Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<blockquote>There's the ZTT Drive (IIRC) from the Reality Dysfunction.<BR>
Hang on, now I come to think of it that drive an amazing simularity to Traveller. As did quite alot of the setting, communication lags, fartraders that jump one step ahead of bancruptcy etc etc.</blockquote><BR>
This reminded me of one event in these books that relates to jump distances etc. A jump was performed at a lagrange point (* zero tidal stress *) would this work? perhaps only for smaller ships? perhaps only for jumping out...too small a target to hit coming out of j-space? too much chance of converganceon emerence?<BR>
Hey...what does happen when two ships emerge from j-space at the same co-ords? it must happen esp. in large fleet actions...<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
- --------------2940C2A30E8E0C205026CBD1--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:05:25 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
><BR>
> ><< And, as the Vargr do not, as a rule wear shoes, >><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Whose rule is that? I don't remember ever stating anything like that . . .<BR>
><BR>
>     Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
> shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
<BR>
Well, humans don't _need_ to wear shoes either, but it sure<BR>
helps to avoid a host of problems, problems that Ancient-<BR>
manipulated Vargr would probably experience going from<BR>
4 legs to 2 without an evolutionary 'knuckle-dragging' middle<BR>
ground.<BR>
<BR>
"What is the law?"<BR>
"No to go on all fours."<BR>
- - Dr. Moreau<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 04:13:39 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Ditzie Spofulam (Was: GT: Alien Races #3)<BR>
<BR>
David Smart wrote:<BR>
> This reminds me...I picked up SJG's GT: Alien Races #3 and<BR>
> burst out<BR>
> laughing when I first saw Ditzie with a full oytrip of<BR>
> Droyne. I stopped<BR>
> laughing when I realized the significance of the illo.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't got this book yet, but I will be keeping my eyes open when I<BR>
get it.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, there were a number of references to Familie Spofulam (or Ditzie)<BR>
in GT:Starports. I have the book standing on my shelf, but Real Life<BR>
(and painting in preparation for an upcoming Blood Bowl tournament) has<BR>
prevented me from reading the book.<BR>
<BR>
Could anyone please point me towards the fun parts? I need something to<BR>
cheer me up...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 04:23:53 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> Hey...what does happen when two ships emerge from j-space at the same<BR>
> co-ords? it must happen esp. in large fleet actions...<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:<BR>
<BR>
Two jump bubbles cannot interact with each other in jumpspace. The<BR>
bubble exists up to and including the moment when the ship emerges.<BR>
Other matter cannot occupy that space.<BR>
<BR>
Normal jump drive operation (ie exiting in near vacuum) will push away<BR>
all offending particles outside of the required volume. The ship will<BR>
emerge together with the remains of the jump bubble (mostly hydrogen).<BR>
<BR>
If a ship occupies the spot of intended jump exit, the exiting ship will<BR>
appear just next to it. This is why a jumping fleet does *not* want to<BR>
pop out of jump with maneuver drives activated. A fleet exiting jump<BR>
will take some time to get organized, and it is thus vulnerable to enemy<BR>
fire during this period of time.<BR>
<BR>
Two ships entering jump next to each other at the same time will<BR>
(usually) appear next to each other when they pop out of jump. This<BR>
relation is distorted by increased distance between ships, differences<BR>
in jumpdrive construction, and different jump entry times.<BR>
<BR>
Misjumps can sometimes cause a ship to pop out of jump very close to a<BR>
planet. In these cases, the nearby matter is violently displaced<BR>
(creating a large sonic boom within atmospheres, throwing shrapnel in<BR>
all directions, etc). The ship also suffers physical damage from such a<BR>
violent reentry, and thus needs to be repaired (especially since it will<BR>
probably crash as well).<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:34:49 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Gearhead Alert: New design program<BR>
<BR>
	I have a friend demonstrating this to me today. X-plane is a flight<BR>
simulator programs for both Mac and Windows. Requires a fairly new/high<BR>
end system with graphics and CPU horsepower. Costs is about US$200. <BR>
<BR>
	Very highly detailed. The version includes a detailed map of many<BR>
airports and allows direct or instrument flying between airports. <BR>
	What makes this more on topic is has a mars simulation mode. You can<BR>
fly planes around in the martian atmosphere, and with a full map of the<BR>
martian surface. <BR>
	And there is a design system for building your own planes, from prop<BR>
planes to jets to rockets, including space shuttle simulations. <BR>
<BR>
	http://www.x-plane.com/<BR>
<BR>
	Would be interested in hearing other reviews. 	<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2520<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (rly-yc01.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.33]) by air-yc02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Sun, 28 May 2000 22:36:40 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 28 May 2000 22:36:04 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA67394;<BR>
	Sun, 28 May 2000 22:32:57 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 28 May 2000 22:32:03 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA67348<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 28 May 2000 22:32:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:32:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005290232.WAA67348@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2520<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2521</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/29/00 12:13:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 29 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2521<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: Jump Limits<BR>
Include your Traveller software on the GRIP Traveller CD<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Gaming Philosophy (was Re: Speed of Psionics)<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Medical Technology<BR>
Re: Medical Technology<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
RE: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Shipboard Gravitics Questions<BR>
Re : Medical Technology<BR>
Re: TML Baycon party....<BR>
ATTN JENS RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 05:18:38 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Regina is SubSector Capitol and possibly Sector Capitol.<BR>
<BR>
And just as possible not. The source simply does not mention it.<BR>
<BR>
>[Spinward Marches Campaign p 19] (circa 100 (?) - 1110 (?)) <BR>
<BR>
The UWPs in SMC is per 1110.<BR>
 <BR>
>Regina and Mora are both listed as Subsector Capitols and Sector Capitol<BR>
>is not mentioned. [Sup 3] (circa 1105)<BR>
>Never less I assume that the Spinward Marches _had_ a Sector Capitol in<BR>
>1105, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
So do I.<BR>
 <BR>
>Zhodani Embassy is on Regina which may suggest Regina is Sector Capitol or<BR>
>may merely suggest Regina is more convenient. [JTAS 9 5FW War Issue]<BR>
>(circa 1109)<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani presumably have embassies at both Regina and Mora. Propably also<BR>
at the other subsector governments. <BR>
 <BR>
>Regina is Sector capitol [Reb SB p 71] (circa mid 1116)<BR>
<BR>
Now that one I hadn't found. Score one for your side. Mind you, I still don't<BR>
think it makes sense, but it certainly is evidence for your side. Of course,<BR>
if Regina IS sector capital in 1116 it has nothing to do with Norris' status<BR>
as archduke, since he isn't archduke in 1116.<BR>
<BR>
There are references in Megatraveller Journal to Mora being the sector<BR>
capital and remaining the sector capital when Norris set up the domain<BR>
capital there. And since Mora has been the most important Imperial planet<BR>
in the Spinward Marches since the year 60, I consider that the most likely<BR>
to be true.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:31:39 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
At 5:28 PM -0700 5/28/00, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
><BR>
>><< And, as the Vargr do not, as a rule wear shoes, >><BR>
>><BR>
>>Whose rule is that? I don't remember ever stating anything like that . . .<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
>shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
<BR>
But humans are based on Terran primates, none of whom wear shoes...<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:44:29 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
>Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
>> What is GRIP? GRIP (Generic Role-playing for Internet Players) is a set of<BR>
>> software tools that lets you play ANY traditional paper and pencil RPG over<BR>
>> the Internet or a LAN, with a Game Master and up to 8 players.<BR>
><BR>
>So character sheets etc (on the player side) are *completely*<BR>
>customizeable?<BR>
<BR>
Yep, you can design em to look just about any way you want, and can program then to do all sorts of things from making skill and attack rolls, to uttering your character's favorite line.<BR>
<BR>
>And it is possible to add *any* tables/whatever to the GM side?<BR>
<BR>
Not currently, but we are developing a table system for the GM that will able you to build custom tables.<BR>
<BR>
>Could I create a map on the GM side, then easily add/remove icons (PCs,<BR>
>NPCs) on the map and show the map to the players?<BR>
<BR>
As GM you have full control of what portions of the map are visible to the players at any time, via our Fog of War system. Player/NPC icon placement is also under the full control of the GM.<BR>
<BR>
>Does the Traveller edition of the box contain all parts of the generic<BR>
>program? In other words, could I use the Traveller version (after some<BR>
>work) for the T4 edition of Traveller, GURPS, Rolemaster, whatever?<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller Edition has all of the basic GRIP components you need to play any RPG online, not just Traveller. The Traveller tools included, however currently are CT in nature only.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
QuikLink Interactive<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: Traveller Editions<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:47:37 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hey...what does happen when two ships emerge from j-space at the same<BR>
> co-ords? it must happen esp. in large fleet actions...<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
The probabilities are extremely low (space is BIG), but<BR>
it is possible for ships to arrive at exactly the same<BR>
time in exactly the same volume of space.  I assume a<BR>
major catastrophe would occur.  Details are left to the<BR>
referee, of course.  Possible examples:<BR>
<BR>
misjump of one or the other ships<BR>
<BR>
total annihalation of one or the other ships<BR>
<BR>
internal explosions on both craft, with parts of each ship<BR>
fused into each other<BR>
<BR>
etc etc<BR>
<BR>
Yet Another Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 00:22:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Include your Traveller software on the GRIP Traveller CD<BR>
<BR>
We are getting ready to create the master CD for the upcoming GRIP Traveller box edition, due to ship next month to game and hobby stores, and we are looking for other freeware and shareware Traveller programs to include on the CD as a bonus for our users. This is a great chance to expose your program to thousands of new and current Traveller players! And while the GRIP Traveller box edition comes with our own Sector/World Builder, Character Generator, and Library Data programs, we will be happy to also include other types of programs similar to these.<BR>
<BR>
If you are the author, or authorized representative for a Traveller related program, and would like a copy of your program or demo included, please send an email to grip@RPGRealms.com (please do not reply to this message!), with the Subject: Inclusion on Traveller CD. Include your name, contact information, and a download location where we can retrieve the latest copy of your program. We will contact you with more information.<BR>
<BR>
Be sure to hurry though! We only have a short time before the master CD for this print run is finalized and sent to the duplicator.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:20:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
<BR>
>>     Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
>>shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
><BR>
>But humans are based on Terran primates, none of whom wear shoes...<BR>
><BR>
>Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV,<BR>
<BR>
    Do me a favor, think about this.  Phoenix, AZ gets really hot in the<BR>
summer, around 120 degres hot.  Now, I want you to think about walking<BR>
outside without shoes on.  OK, got that thought in your head?  Good.  Now, I<BR>
want you to think about how long it will take for your feet to heal after<BR>
they have been burned by concrete that is hot enough to fry an egg on.  You<BR>
there now?  Good.<BR>
    Now, I want you to think about walking around on that same concrete with<BR>
a pair of shoes on.  OK, you with me?  Good, your feet will not burn.<BR>
    As for my dog, she runs outside on that same concrete & her paws do not<BR>
burn due to the fact that evolution has given her a layer of fur between her<BR>
paw proper & the ground.  A primate does not have this, it is just bear skin<BR>
& as such your foot burns.  A dog's does not.  But, what does happen, as<BR>
dogs "sweat" at their paws, when it is too hot, they cannot cool down.  What<BR>
"Cool Paws" does is allow your dog's paws to work to cool off your dog, it<BR>
does not need to keep your pets paws from burning.<BR>
    As for primates, they cool off the same basic way we do, with sweat<BR>
glands.  So "Cool Paws" are not needed for them.  But, a canine would need<BR>
them.  So, for a Vargr, which is based off of the terran canine, they would<BR>
cool off the same way, by panting & releasing excess heat at the paws, or in<BR>
the case of a Vargr, at their hands & feet.  Now, I can see a market for<BR>
"Cool Paws" in glove & boot form for Vargr.<BR>
    Btw, primates do need to wear shoes in an hot urban environment.  I did<BR>
check with my Vet about this, & he said that when you want to keep, say a<BR>
chimp in Phoenix, durring the summer, you will want to buy them at least one<BR>
pair of shoes, so their feet do not burn on the hot concrete.  I also called<BR>
up the Wildlife World Zoo here in Phoenix, & they have to keep the floors of<BR>
the cages of the primates cooled off during the summer, & when they do move<BR>
a primate from one cage to another they do put shoes on their feet.<BR>
Therefore, primates do wear shoes, at least in Phoenix, AZ.  Of course YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:49:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gaming Philosophy (was Re: Speed of Psionics)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> > Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>> What I said is that I don't believe that the Referee ought to make<BR>
>> up things that are covered by either the rules or reality. <BR>
><BR>
> Reality is everything and that covers quite a bit ;)  Any GM that tries<BR>
> to run a perfect simulation of reality is doomed to fail.  More<BR>
> importantly they would waste a lot of time trying and create a boring<BR>
> game, IMO.<BR>
><BR>
> Sure, if a GM is so inclined they could realistically calculate<BR>
> transmission time for a radio message (or psionics, meson, or<BR>
> whatever).  But is it really that important?  Would the characters be<BR>
> able to perceive those minute details?<BR>
><BR>
> I would much rather have a GM that would tell me the response time is "a<BR>
> moment or two" off-the-cuff than a GM that stops the game to calculate<BR>
> the time as "4.287 seconds to reply".<BR>
><BR>
> OTOH, exact calculations might necessary sometimes.  If so, it should be<BR>
> worked out ahead of time if possible - not done in the middle of the<BR>
> game.<BR>
<BR>
They can't be worked out in advance, as they depend on *where* your<BR>
ship is. Which depends on what you do. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, on the scale of hexes used for one of the more<BR>
common combat ri\ules, the hexes are a simple fraction of a light<BR>
second (1/10th? 1/30th?) So all the ref would have to do is count the<BR>
hexes, do a simple division, and multiply by two.<BR>
<BR>
No slower than figuring ranges for shots. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:46:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ...<BR>
>>>   Essentially correct (IMHO), but if it had been the US carrier <BR>
>>> force destroyed at Midway (ForEx) then the USN now has to pay _huge_<BR>
>>> logistical costs to "island-hop" into even the outer perimeter<BR>
>>> of the Japanese defenses - and those logistical costs will mean<BR>
>>> much greater times to achieve ends and/or lost battles/campaigns<BR>
>>> in the process. <BR>
>>><BR>
>>>   It might very well have led to either a tremendously long drawn<BR>
>>> out war or the progressive nuking of each Japanese major naval<BR>
>>> base in turn as the final advance got under way...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Slight problem. We *couldn't* have nuked each Japanese major naval base<BR>
>>as went along.<BR>
>><BR>
>>After Nagasaki we had either one more bomb or *no* more bombs, with the<BR>
>>next one in production being *months* from completion. That's one of<BR>
>>the reasons that we didn't try the "do a demonstration shot" bit (which<BR>
>>*was* actually proposed).<BR>
>><BR>
>>It wasn't until the end of 1945 that we had any sort of "stockpile" of <BR>
> nukes.<BR>
><BR>
>   One assumes that given a disaster at Midway that the Bomb program would<BR>
> have been prodded with serial production in mind; otherwise we're implying<BR>
> a stunning lack of foresight and communications amongst decision-makers.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but they were *already* working all out. One of the main<BR>
bottlenecks was producting plutonium and enriched uranium. Both<BR>
*incredibly* dangerous procedures at the then current state of the art.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 01:16:30 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Therefore, primates do wear shoes, at least in Phoenix, AZ.  Of course YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Those troublesome chimps!  Always making trouble in habitats<BR>
they aren't native to.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 07:11:48 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Medical Technology<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
> The research team tested the system on rats that had large sections of bone<BR>
> missing from their skulls. New bone was produced from the rats' own skin<BR>
> cells, <BR>
<BR>
!<BR>
This means they can change the cell type after diversification! Wow!<BR>
<BR>
> and the skulls were almost fully healed within just four weeks.<BR>
<BR>
We' re living in great times, guys, aren't we.<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 07:11:51 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Medical Technology<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
>     Traveller Canon states that the Solomani are quite a bit more advanced<BR>
> than the Vilani or Zhos regarding medicine in general (And the reasoning is<BR>
> impeccable).<BR>
> <BR>
>     Considering that we are less then 50 years from true anagathic<BR>
> treatments, and less than 20 years away from body part cloning, I'd say that<BR>
> medicine in the 57th. Century, at least on Terra, would be insanely good.<BR>
> Maybe even to the point of biological computers.<BR>
> <BR>
> Even advanced bioengineering feats first suggested by TC at T.L. 18-21 are<BR>
> real possibilities now, and are currently being experimented with.<BR>
<BR>
Which makes me think of one question: <BR>
What if it actually happens? I mean, okay, we 'll all be happy since we<BR>
can profit from that...<BR>
<BR>
<dramatic voice from the off><BR>
<BR>
 but what about Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
</dramatic voice from the off><BR>
<BR>
We had something like this before, especially computer technology<BR>
leaping far beyond Traveller's assumptions. A minor correction was made,<BR>
and the issue could be ignored politely, Xboat message cost was reduced,<BR>
deck plans were modiefied, that's all.<BR>
<BR>
But what about biotech? Imagine, if the Solomani had, say, found a way<BR>
to produce _true_ eternal youth (not just anagthics, but gene alteration<BR>
to make any being "immortal" once and for ever if we want). OTU would<BR>
never be same, would it?<BR>
The Emperor's list would either have to be modified, or the Imperial<BR>
Court would have to be a far more intrigious place (I mean, they all die<BR>
after a while...). Or imagine Hiroshi Estigarribia (first emperor of the<BR>
Rule of Man), still wandering around in secrecy, having grown wise over<BR>
the millenia, and watching and influencing humaniti's way ...<BR>
<BR>
That would be a truly different OTU, wouldn't it? What would you prefer<BR>
in such a situation- modifcation of OTU or just sticking with the old<BR>
one?<BR>
<BR>
(BTW: Why don't the Emperors make heavy use of standard Traveller<BR>
anagthics?) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:09:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> VonRammen schrieb:<BR>
><BR>
> [snip] <BR>
>> For example, could you take the photons, split them, and then fire one set<BR>
>> towards Alpha Centauri. Four years later, the colonists collect them,<BR>
>> reverse their spin, and send morse code back to earth base...is this<BR>
>> possible?<BR>
><BR>
> Hm. thinking about it: You don't know the spin of either photon,<BR>
> initially. If you measure the spin of either photon, you do this by<BR>
> changing it.<BR>
><BR>
> What if you measure both photons' spins at predetermined times?<BR>
><BR>
> Say, there is photon A here on Earth (no - wait, on Terra, we're on a<BR>
> Traveller ML here...) and photon B<BR>
> on Capital. Both sides agree to to measure the spin in regular<BR>
> intervals- say, A is measured every uneven second (1,3,5) and B is<BR>
> measured every even second (2,4,6). <BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but not only does the measurement "set" the value of the other<BR>
photon, it *also* breaks the quantum entanglement that links them.<BR>
After the initial measurement doing things to one doesn't do anything<BR>
to the other. <BR>
<BR>
So you measure A as being +, which means that B is -. But if someone<BR>
does something that flips the sign on B *after* that, it has no effect<BR>
on A. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:49:30 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Legate Legion<BR>
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
> ><< And, as the Vargr do not, as a rule wear shoes, >><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Whose rule is that? I don't remember ever stating anything like<BR>
> that . . .<BR>
><BR>
>     Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
> shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
<BR>
By that logic _we_ shouldn't wear shoes, because we're based on the Terran<BR>
primates<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:34:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Shipboard Gravitics Questions<BR>
<BR>
This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
I've been thinking a bit on the implications of GURPS style gravitic<BR>
technologies (ie. AG and CG units) aboard spacecraft, and I have a<BR>
few questions about them. (Since Traveller uses gravitics from GTL8<BR>
on I'm crossposting this to TML.)<BR>
<BR>
1.) Can contragravity be applied to a spaceship's internal payload<BR>
    to reduce its total *weight* so that less lift would be required<BR>
    for it to takeoff from a planet's surface? Example: A Puller<BR>
    Class Assault Ship [GT:SM p.72] has 1700 tons of manuver thrust<BR>
    and a loaded mass of 1796.245 stons when carrying 6 heavy grav<BR>
    tanks [p.79] of 191.3 stons each. If the *weight* of the tanks<BR>
    can be neutralized [which it will be in G fields up to 2.5], the<BR>
    ship should be capable of a vertical liftoff in any G field less<BR>
    than 2.55 Gs.<BR>
<BR>
2.) Can a ship with AG reduce its internal gravity to less than the<BR>
    external gravity field it resides in? (Who needs a CG forlift in<BR>
    a zero-G cargo hold?)<BR>
<BR>
3.) What happens when the *direction* of the internal and external<BR>
    gravity fields don't match?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  The scuba mask swats the ugly cannibal. FNORD!  |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:59:42 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Medical Technology<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote :-<BR>
<interesting reference snipped><BR>
> ObTrav: Healing Rates at Traveller Tech Levels?<BR>
<BR>
The ultimate limit to healing will be heat dissipation.<BR>
I notice in the article that the rat's skulls were almost completely<BR>
healed within four weeks. This is about the normal healing rate for<BR>
rats, since they're small and have a proportionately faster metabolic<BR>
rate.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately the regen/cloning rules appeared in the Traveller's Digest<BR>
(forbidden canon). IMHO they're quite reasonable, but 'Bacta tanks'<BR>
would be required for the really fast regen, because of that pesky heat<BR>
problem.<BR>
<BR>
The GURPS rules aren't too bad either (Compendium II).<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Helton wrote :-<BR>
> Considering that we are less then 50 years from true anagathic<BR>
> treatments, and less than 20 years away from body part cloning, I'd say that<BR>
> medicine in the 57th. Century, at least on Terra, would be insanely good.<BR>
> Maybe even to the point of biological computers.<BR>
<BR>
I've been derided on this list before for suggesting that things<BR>
progressed slowly in the Traveller Universe because the knowledge<BR>
requirement to go up Tech Levels is exponential, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
So we sequence the genome at TTL 9, and take 3 TLs to get a handle on<BR>
what it all means. It takes another 2 TLs to do things like uplift smart<BR>
animals like dolphins and primates. Etc.<BR>
<BR>
We may be able to culture all sorts of cells on elaborate scaffolds, but<BR>
sticking them into living organisms and having them function as organs<BR>
could be tricky.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
(I posted a whole slew of stuff about 'Medicine In Traveller' in<BR>
November 1998. Gentle flaming is invited, off-list perhaps?)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 00:13:57 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Baycon party....<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, Doug wanted a "Nyah, Nyay, we are having more fun than you<BR>
> guys" post on the TML party Sat night at BayCon here in San Jose,<BR>
> CA and I am the first one on the net afterward so....<BR>
<BR>
Yea... Going to a game convention when there is a SFcon going on..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What where you guys thinking?<BR>
<BR>
> The usual suspects showed up.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it was a reprise of last years crowd, with the added bonus,<BR>
of people stopping by our open door, stating they thought Traveller<BR>
was Dead. Well, we convinced 'em otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
> A couple of people (I won't try<BR>
> and get all the names, Doug can do that later) show up dressed<BR>
> as scouts and Doug had a very military looking unform (with a<BR>
> very realistic looking toy gun).<BR>
<BR>
Doug Looked "Fabulous"<BR>
<BR>
And speaking for one of the crowd in Scout Casual. The IISS proved<BR>
again the depravity they will get in to if not locked away in small ships.<BR>
The challenge to the Klingon's thoroughly ignored. We challenged them<BR>
to a dancing contest..... The Village People's YMCA was the music<BR>
of choice. Thou.. a couple of the young lass's where doing an impromptu<BR>
Bell dance.<BR>
<BR>
> There was a stuff penguin<BR>
> that attacked one person and was held at gunpoint in reprisal.<BR>
> There was too much food, and there was much discussion of issue<BR>
> Traveller related (which I think I can objectively state showed<BR>
> how right all the positions I have taken on the TML have been :-)<BR>
> and some weren't (eg, crimes are solved because criminals are<BR>
> dumb, plans never work as well as they looked on paper, what<BR>
> is the military mindset, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
Ditto<BR>
<BR>
> Much fun was had.  Don't you wish you were there.....<BR>
<BR>
I was wish it would never end.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 00:08:25 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: ATTN JENS RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
Jens wrote:<BR>
David Smart wrote:<BR>
> This reminds me...I picked up SJG's GT: Alien Races #3 and<BR>
> burst out<BR>
> laughing when I first saw Ditzie with a full oytrip of<BR>
> Droyne. I stopped<BR>
> laughing when I realized the significance of the illo.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't got this book yet, but I will be keeping my eyes open when I<BR>
get it.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, there were a number of references to Familie Spofulam (or Ditzie)<BR>
in GT:Starports. I have the book standing on my shelf, but Real Life<BR>
(and painting in preparation for an upcoming Blood Bowl tournament) has<BR>
prevented me from reading the book.<BR>
<BR>
Could anyone please point me towards the fun parts? I need something to<BR>
cheer me up...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dug this out of my sent logs.  'Splains the cover stuff that I did.<BR>
Enjoy!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Jesse DeGraff [mailto:jdegraff@pacbell.net]<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 1:12 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Starports<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > I just picked up my copy of GT Starports and I am impressed. The <BR>
> > staff at the local FLGS were going on about how good the cover <BR>
> > looked, which prompted some questions/observations:<BR>
> <BR>
> Good to hear :)<BR>
> <BR>
> > 1) Obviously, I know who the two scouts in the background are, but <BR>
> > who are the others? Is Jesse on the front page?<BR>
> <BR>
> You would know those two, since it's none other than Andy Lilly <BR>
> of BITS fame and his wife :)  Left to right the folks that appear <BR>
> are my good friend, ex-coworker, and fellow airsoft team mate <BR>
> Evans Pang as the pilot, long time friend (who was actually a <BR>
> friend of my best friend 'fore I met him) Pete Gotcher as the <BR>
> mechanic supervising the welding robot, Andy's wife <fnord, as I <BR>
> can't remember if that's public knowledge or not ;)  >, Andy <BR>
> Lilly from Bits, who was kind enough to sent in some pictures to <BR>
> my long ago TML request for same, long time high scholl friend <BR>
> Tim Dougherty as the walking mechanic, myself as "Lucky Credit" <BR>
> crewman #1, and Pete again as "LC" crewman #2.  Figured there was <BR>
> enough difference and depth between the two characters that he <BR>
> posed for that nobody'd notice unless told :)  Oh, and the <BR>
> figures behind the glass in the terminal area on the second floor <BR>
> represent Roger Barr (from the TML) and his wife Aylene, as they <BR>
> were never able to get pictures done for me, but desperately <BR>
> wanted to do so.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you've been paying attention, you'll also know that the <BR>
> shipping container reads:<BR>
> "FS (in big letters)<BR>
> Famile Spofulam High Engergy Wpns Div"<BR>
> <BR>
> The red dot electronic sign over the bay far to the right reads:<BR>
> "Ditzie was here" or "Ditzie Spofulam was here", can't remember <BR>
> which now that I think about it.<BR>
> <BR>
> And the bulletin board visible under the Marava has on it, among <BR>
> other things,<BR>
> 1.A serious import warning against importing Denebian Tree Oxen.  <BR>
> Very dangerous critters, those!<BR>
> 2.An advertisement or two for used starships.  Only flown twice <BR>
> and crashed once!  What a bargain!<BR>
> 3.And an advert for a "gentleman's club" or starport bar, with a <BR>
> b&w picture of Angie Everheart on it.  I always was a sucker for <BR>
> red hair ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> > 2) I love the pictures throughout - both Glenn and Jesse have made <BR>
> > this look more Traveller than ever before.<BR>
> <BR>
> Many thanks!<BR>
> <BR>
> > 3) There are some gorgeous hints at the plot line Loren has in store <BR>
> > for us - 'Dulinor' being used in a poker game using information <BR>
> > rather than money, and the GLAIVE - GUISARME hint about the <BR>
> > non-existent Research Station 2197 (Longbow II anyone?).<BR>
> <BR>
> Can't wait to read it myself.  Still waiting on my copies.  <BR>
> Should arrive sometime during this coming week.<BR>
>  <BR>
> > 4) I notice that 'spun' orbitals don't appear to be included (ones <BR>
> > like 2001's station and CJ Cherryh's Stations) which is a shame to <BR>
> > some extent.<BR>
> <BR>
> Whoops....  :)  Sorry, I just made what they said and had Andy <BR>
> Akins' "plans" for.  Some of the designs I'm working on for the <BR>
> "Rim of Fire" cover are, or could be, spun designs.  What ends up <BR>
> appearing depends on what gets decided on by Loren & Phil.<BR>
> <BR>
> > 5) The book itself looks up to the same standards as Far Trader, with <BR>
> > lots of meat to be used by any Traveller referee for ideas in a game, <BR>
> > not just GT. As ever, beyond the Regency this will be hard to use <BR>
> > with TNE's setting, but there are little hints all over which are <BR>
> > worthwhile.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > However, on a first skim this looks like an excellent buy.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Well done folks.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Dom<BR>
> > <BR>
> > PS Jesse managed to capture one of my campaign incidents <BR>
> > unintentionally - on p82 with a squadron of riders flying past a high <BR>
> > port. I did this to players on one of the Dinom/Dinomn worlds with a <BR>
> > squadron coming out of jump with no transponders and deploying in <BR>
> > strike formation. The high port went into alert, the SDBs were taking <BR>
> > off, and the whole station was locking down before the light lag on <BR>
> > the message revealed that it was an Imperial Navy Task Force on <BR>
> > exercises along the border, just before the FFW.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'll have to look at that one when I get my copies.  There were <BR>
> some shots I remember with MT class cargo ships and Fiery <BR>
> escorts, as well as some with the Mercy Class rescue ships....<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks again!<BR>
> Best,<BR>
> Jesse<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2521<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (rly-yc01.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.33]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 03:13:18 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 03:12:39 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA77786;<BR>
	Mon, 29 May 2000 03:11:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 29 May 2000 03:10:50 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id DAA77506<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 03:10:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:10:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005290710.DAA77506@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2521<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2522</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/29/00 8:43:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 29 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2522<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
RE: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
RE: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Ship Type Codes<BR>
Re: 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Re: Jump Limits<BR>
Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
In my mind I'm going to Carolina, ya'll<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: ATTN JENS RE: Starports<BR>
Re: Math for Dummies?<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics Questions<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
[OT] Help with simple CGI script<BR>
Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Re: 22 years and counting...<BR>
RE: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 00:10:34 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
<BR>
When & where is it out of curiosity?  Depending on date, I **might** try to<BR>
make it......<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Keith<BR>
> Johnson<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 11:58 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 01:14 PM 5/28/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Speaking of CONs, is anyone planning to go to GENCON this year?<BR>
><BR>
> I will definitely be there.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> _________________________________________________________<BR>
> Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
> Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
> Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
><BR>
>   IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
> _________________________________________________________<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:23:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: RE: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
<BR>
GenCon is Aug 10-13 in Milwaukee WI.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********<BR>
<BR>
On 5/29/2000 at 12:10 AM Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>When & where is it out of curiosity?  Depending on date, I **might** try to<BR>
>make it......<BR>
>Jesse<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Keith<BR>
>> Johnson<BR>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 11:58 AM<BR>
>> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>> Subject: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> At 01:14 PM 5/28/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> >Speaking of CONs, is anyone planning to go to GENCON this year?<BR>
>><BR>
>> I will definitely be there.<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> _________________________________________________________<BR>
>> Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
>> Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
>> Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
>><BR>
>>   IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
>> _________________________________________________________<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:28:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels:<BR>
<BR>
>Those troublesome chimps!  Always making trouble in habitats<BR>
>they aren't native to.<BR>
<BR>
Ain't it the truth, though?<BR>
<BR>
My troublesome chimp story concerns the fact that my grandpop decided to go<BR>
a few rounds with a troublesome guard-chimp which was kept in a cage in a<BR>
junkyard in Philadelphia. My grandfather was hospitalized as a result. When<BR>
he got better, he went back for a rematch.<BR>
<BR>
Scratch that. I think that's a troublesome grandpop story. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:06:17 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
><BR>
> >>     Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
> >>shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >But humans are based on Terran primates, none of whom wear shoes...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Bolie IV<BR>
><BR>
> Bolie IV,<BR>
><BR>
>     Do me a favor, think about this.  Phoenix, AZ gets really hot in the<BR>
> summer, around 120 degres hot.  Now, I want you to think about walking<BR>
> outside without shoes on.  OK, got that thought in your head?  Good.  Now, I<BR>
> want you to think about how long it will take for your feet to heal after<BR>
> they have been burned by concrete that is hot enough to fry an egg on.  You<BR>
> there now?  Good.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
When I was younger (IIRC) I lived in Brisbane, a city in a subtropical zone and<BR>
occasionally spent time during the sumer holidays with relatives in their home,<BR>
which was situated approximately in the tropic of capriorn...the thing is I have<BR>
memories of spending a lot of time in bare feet wandering around with the<BR>
temperature in the high 30's/ low 40's (centigrade) and never getting burnt<BR>
feet. My feet adapted and became very tough...on one occasion I pulled a piece<BR>
of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my foot...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:12:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> Therefore, primates do wear shoes, at least in Phoenix, AZ.  Of course<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
><BR>
>Those troublesome chimps!  Always making trouble in habitats<BR>
>they aren't native to.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Hey, monkey-boy, remember we can adapt to any environment, even ones<BR>
that need shoes. *weg*<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:17:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
<BR>
>>     Do me a favor, think about this.  Phoenix, AZ gets really hot in the<BR>
>> summer, around 120 degres hot.  Now, I want you to think about walking<BR>
>> outside without shoes on.  OK, got that thought in your head?  Good.<BR>
Now, I<BR>
>> want you to think about how long it will take for your feet to heal after<BR>
>> they have been burned by concrete that is hot enough to fry an egg on.<BR>
You<BR>
>> there now?  Good.<BR>
<BR>
>When I was younger (IIRC) I lived in Brisbane, a city in a subtropical zone<BR>
and<BR>
>occasionally spent time during the sumer holidays with relatives in their<BR>
home,<BR>
>which was situated approximately in the tropic of capriorn...the thing is I<BR>
have<BR>
>memories of spending a lot of time in bare feet wandering around with the<BR>
>temperature in the high 30's/ low 40's (centigrade) and never getting burnt<BR>
>feet. My feet adapted and became very tough...on one occasion I pulled a<BR>
piece<BR>
>of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my<BR>
foot...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, but I think humidity might have something to do with it.  I am<BR>
from IL, & it does get to around 100 degres, & about 90% humidity, & I could<BR>
walk all day long on hot concrete, but here in Phoenix, I cannot do that,<BR>
but when I went back home to Chicago, I walked around all day for several<BR>
days on my friends concrete padio<sp> & did not really feel it, but then<BR>
when I came home to Phoenix, I couldn't even step out onto my own padio<sp><BR>
barefoot, it was too damn hot.<BR>
    No considering that Brisbane is in a subtropical zone, it must get humid<BR>
there, so that might have helped.  As for the tough feet, yes, they can<BR>
adapt & adapt very well, but too bad they will not let me come into work in<BR>
bare feet, or I would.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 05:05:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Type Codes<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> CC = Battlecruiser <BR>
<BR>
Does "CC" also stand for "Command Cruiser", or is that an <BR>
artifact of Star Fleet Battles?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:47:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
> - The Paragon Traveller computer adventures have been located,<BR>
>   and information added to the DOS program listing. You can find<BR>
>   the info, along with links, on that page from the Computer<BR>
>   Connection in the Information Center.<BR>
<BR>
The links to these programs seem to be broken Jeff. I was looking forward to<BR>
bathing in nostalgia, I had the Zhodani Conpiracy back in the days I owned<BR>
an Atari ST.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:28:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> This reminded me of one event in these books that relates to jump<BR>
> distances etc. A jump was performed at a lagrange point (* zero tidal<BR>
> stress *) would this work? perhaps only for smaller ships? perhaps only<BR>
> for jumping out...too small a target to hit coming out of j-space? too<BR>
> much chance of convergance on emerence?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, Lagrange points are *not* zero tidal stress (or zero<BR>
curvature). They are places where the curvature is such that they form<BR>
a local "peak" (which you can balance precariously on) or "saddle<BR>
points" (rather like the shape of a pass between two peaks, it curves up<BR>
in one direction and down in another).<BR>
<BR>
As such they actually have *more* curvature than the surrounding space,<BR>
not less. That's what lets stuff stay there. <BR>
<BR>
> Hey...what does happen when two ships emerge from j-space at the same<BR>
> co-ords? it must happen esp. in large fleet actions...<BR>
<BR>
Take another look at the rules for uncertainty in exit point. The ships<BR>
will be scattered over a volume bigger than earth. The odds of a<BR>
collision are low. Besides, if a planet's gravity well will kick you<BR>
out of jump, so will another ship's. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:46:01 +0100<BR>
From: Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Meson Gun Handwave for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Hi, All,<BR>
<BR>
Probably several folks will tell me why it is way off base, but I was<BR>
always under the impression that meson weapon technology relied in part<BR>
on nuclear damper tech.  Basically I see a meson gun as a pi0 meson<BR>
generator plus a nuclear damper-type thing (related to a meson screen?)<BR>
pushing the half life of the mesons up until they are able to achieve a<BR>
useful range.  The decay of the mesons (releasing gamma and other<BR>
photons) is timed to be at the target, more or less, by the targeting<BR>
gear.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:11:45 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Moin Legate Legion,<BR>
<BR>
>     Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
> shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
<BR>
  well I think that shoes are a civilisation problem !<BR>
<BR>
  I'm living in the rural and I prefer to walk without shoes, I only<BR>
  use them when I have to do some bussiness in the city. The reason<BR>
  is of course that civilisation is used to 'enslave nature'. City<BR>
  have streets, and those are build on stone, tar or concrete. We dont<BR>
  need shoes if we walk in nature, we need them because of our civilisation.<BR>
<BR>
  So as Vargrs are as civilised as humans, they probately need shoes also.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:43:48 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: In my mind I'm going to Carolina, ya'll<BR>
<BR>
Some may consider this terribly OT, but since it effects Downport.com I<BR>
think it has some relevance.  After being unemployed/full-time student for<BR>
the past 18 months, I have secured a job in Raleigh, North Carolina.  It<BR>
will be a major transition moving there from Maine and will probably slow<BR>
the pace of updates at Downport.com for the next few weeks.  By the end of<BR>
June things should be back to normal (I hope).  I will remain on the list<BR>
(skimming).<BR>
<BR>
That brings up another topic, though:  any Traveller people in Raleigh?<BR>
I've been a lone wolf here in Maine and I'm ready for a little face-to-face<BR>
gaming if such a thing still exists ;-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 09:02:25 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> Someone else wrote:<BR>
> > Also, doesn't the fact that teleportation obeys Conservation of Momentum and<BR>
> > Energy imply that it is bound by relativity as well (and therefore limited<BR>
> > to less than lightspeed)? I lack the math and physics to figure that out<BR>
> > myself.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's a very insightful question and certainly deserves an answer.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can try...<BR>
<BR>
How teleportation works depends on what laws you think apply to it. If<BR>
all the "normal" laws apply, then yes, conservation of energy,<BR>
conservation of momentum and all the other fun things like Lorenz<BR>
transformations mean that teleoprters are limited by relativity.<BR>
<BR>
Note that by bringing conservation of momentum into the equation, you<BR>
can no longer get teleporters flying off into orbit when they lose<BR>
PE by teleporting down.<BR>
<BR>
And Leonard, I think you should know better, but energy is always <BR>
a scalar. There's no "downward vector" for PE. The gravatitional<BR>
field applies a directional force (a vector) but PE just measures <BR>
how far you are long the vector from the center of the mass generating<BR>
the gravity.<BR>
<BR>
One interesting idea is that since it's conservation of _momentum_<BR>
and not _velocity_, you could get get physics-obeying teleporters<BR>
who, when they lose PE by teleporting own, get more massive. Hm, though<BR>
on second thought, that would probably not work either.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, however you split it, I think teleporters have to gain or lose<BR>
heat - there's no other freely available energy sink/source.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:05:18 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: ATTN JENS RE: Starports<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> Dug this out of my sent logs.  'Splains the cover stuff that I did.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 09:22:59 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Math for Dummies?<BR>
<BR>
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
> <BR>
> Will some kind soul (via e-mail please) run through the procedure for adding<BR>
> percentage chances? My copy of the Cartoon Guide to Statistics is 1,200 miles<BR>
> away, and I can't for the life of me remember how to figure how the total of<BR>
> (for example) two 50% chances and a 30% chance is determined. Honest, I used<BR>
> to know but old age has taken it's toll on my braincells.<BR>
<BR>
You do them as decimals and multiply them, assuming they're independent.<BR>
Therefore, for 3 independent tests as you describe, the probability of<BR>
them all being "positive" is (.5)(.5)(.3) which is 0.075 - 7.5%.<BR>
<BR>
If they're not independent, then you have to get a stats major to help you.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan "Now Appearing in Marketing" Henry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 06:21:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 3.) What happens when the *direction* of the internal and external<BR>
>     gravity fields don't match?<BR>
<BR>
My ruling would be that you have to generate a field that counters the<BR>
external gravity and then a *second* field that creates the internal<BR>
gravity. <BR>
<BR>
Most of the time this won't matter. But it might affect power<BR>
consumption or something. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 06:23:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels:<BR>
><BR>
>>Those troublesome chimps!  Always making trouble in habitats<BR>
>>they aren't native to.<BR>
><BR>
> Ain't it the truth, though?<BR>
><BR>
> My troublesome chimp story concerns the fact that my grandpop decided to go<BR>
> a few rounds with a troublesome guard-chimp which was kept in a cage in a<BR>
> junkyard in Philadelphia. My grandfather was hospitalized as a result. When<BR>
> he got better, he went back for a rematch.<BR>
><BR>
> Scratch that. I think that's a troublesome grandpop story. :)<BR>
<BR>
Pity nobody told him that due to the way their muscles are attached, a<BR>
chimp has about 10 times the leverage a human would get with the same<BR>
size muscles... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:07:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: [OT] Help with simple CGI script<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.  Sorry for the waste of bandwidth, but: <BR>
Can someone tell me how complex it is to make a simple cgi script to mail<BR>
the contents of a form?  Please reply to private email<BR>
(charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca).<BR>
<BR>
Many thanks,<BR>
Charles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:28:45 -0400<BR>
From: Eric & Diane Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
Oh man, there is nothing like having a stinging nettle get you on a <BR>
knuckle!  The pain is<BR>
excruciating.  Having grown up out in the forest around Fort Bragg, <BR>
California (150 miles<BR>
north of San Francisco) we were usually careful enough not to come into <BR>
contact with<BR>
stinging nettles.  When you're running through the forest at night though, <BR>
it can be<BR>
difficult to miss the stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:18:56 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
A little something to wake everyone up.<BR>
Hold on a moment while I don my Flame-resistant battledress.<BR>
<BR>
- -Rob<BR>
<BR>
<grain-of-salt><BR>
<rant><BR>
<BR>
THE LESSON<BR>
<BR>
This is a lesson for me and perhaps others on this list.<BR>
<BR>
Complexity is not necessarily the same as detail.  Detail<BR>
is a measure of finely organized features that add to the<BR>
aesthetic appreciation of the subject.<BR>
<BR>
Complexity is not necessarily the same as "realism".  When<BR>
I say "realism", I really mean whatever word means the<BR>
nature of a system to contain an easily discernable order<BR>
amidst a larger impression of infinite variability, both of<BR>
which have an affinity to human nature.  Rules can be discerned; <BR>
the gestalt often cannot.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Theorem GOODPLAY-1:<BR>
   Complexity is not a factor of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
Corollary:<BR>
   Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
EXAMPLES<BR>
<BR>
(1) World Generation<BR>
<BR>
    I am glad most Traveller material lacks world complexity<BR>
    which adds next to nothing to most Traveller games.  The <BR>
    Traveller basic world generation rules and system generation <BR>
    rules are a good balance of detail, appropriate for a referee <BR>
    to take and run with.  Each number is meaningful (I think)<BR>
    and useful, and there's no major information left out.  Well,<BR>
    except the X-Boat route markers...<BR>
<BR>
    On the other hand...<BR>
<BR>
    Worlds generated with a complex variety of numbers for<BR>
    atmosphere, temperature gradients, chemical components,<BR>
    weather patterns, axial tilt, &tc is useless beyond<BR>
    a basic awareness of what the referee is going to<BR>
    throw at you.  If you don't use it, why have it?<BR>
<BR>
    Perhaps some people do use it?<BR>
<BR>
(2) Starship Construction<BR>
<BR>
    Aside from the Book 2 starship construction system, all <BR>
    All ALL of the Traveller ship construction systems are <BR>
    needlesly complex, and nearly devoid of the aesthetic value <BR>
    that defines a good rules system.  This means I'm finally<BR>
    tired of FFS2, and yes, even QSDS.<BR>
<BR>
    My dilemma, then, is how to use a Book 2 framework while<BR>
    retaining the excellent ideas in HG, MT, FFS2, GT.  How to <BR>
    throw away the spreadsheet.  Yet how to remain true to<BR>
    the intent of the published systems.<BR>
<BR>
(3) Player Character Generation<BR>
  <BR>
    Here's one system that's done right.  Basic and Advanced<BR>
    chargen are both sensible, complete systems, with realism<BR>
    and detail.  Notice that the things that were done right <BR>
    the first time change the least?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CONCLUSIONS<BR>
<BR>
Starship construction has changed in EVERY version of Traveller<BR>
because it either (1) wasn't "complete", or (2) was too complex.<BR>
The current incumbent, FFS2, smothers its robust detail with <BR>
complexity.  As far as I can tell, starships designed with High<BR>
Guard are just as "good" as ships designed with FFS2.  Better,<BR>
perhaps, because the complexity added by FFS2 (area calculations,<BR>
armor, hull, and structure points for example) and MegaTraveller<BR>
(armor/penetration) are usually detrimental to game play.<BR>
<BR>
But those minor quibbles I mentioned above aren't really the<BR>
problem.  The problem is that FFS2 doesn't look good.  It looks<BR>
like a workbook for a college physics class.  That's not play.<BR>
That's homework: excellent for theory, lousy for playing.<BR>
<BR>
This smacks of an unresolved issue that WON'T BE FIXED BY ANY <BR>
REVISION OF FFS.  The reason is that FFS approaches the problem<BR>
from the WRONG DIRECTION by attempting to replace true detail <BR>
and "realism" with complexity.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose what that means to me is that any construction system,<BR>
whether built on FFS or no, should not LOOK like a simplified <BR>
version of FFS: it should LOOK and FEEL something like Book 2's <BR>
construction system.<BR>
<BR>
</rant><BR>
</grain-of-salt><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:57:11 -0400<BR>
From: Eric & Diane Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 22 years and counting...<BR>
<BR>
At 07:25 AM 5/23/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hi!<BR>
><BR>
>Reading my OTU timeline chart, I suddenly realizedthat there are only 22<BR>
>years left until the unification of Man! (Solomani, that is...)<BR>
><BR>
>Man- that is hard to believe, considering recent traffic on this list...<BR>
><BR>
>:-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Then our subterfuge is working perfectly.... fnord...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:09:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Thom<BR>
> Jones-Low<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, 28 May 2000 5:10 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:11:22 -0700<BR>
> > From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
> > Subject: Re: Additional alternative technologies in FF&S2<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Via electronic medium on 5/26/00 10:49 AM,<BR>
> jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
> > forth:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > I am trying to make a list of different oddball technologies<BR>
> that might<BR>
> > > be used by aliens (or humaniti cultures), but the current<BR>
> material won't<BR>
> > > take me very far.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I'm drooling, you /do/ plan on posting this here or on the web, right?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > Any suggestions and/or ideas?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I have some pet faves from literature, like collapsar (black hole) jumps<BR>
> > from Forever War, Alderson Drives from Mote in God's Eye,<BR>
> Psionic Folding<BR>
> > like in Dune, etc. I have some of these books still, and could snip<BR>
> > appropriate sections dealing with the technology for you.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> 	Two links I might suggest are:<BR>
><BR>
http://www.sover.net/~geoffk/eder_transport_list.txt : A list of<BR>
proposed and real space drives<BR>
<BR>
http://gurpsnet.sjgames.com/Archive/Vehicles/ : The GURPSNet archives<BR>
contains a number of interesting "Alternatives", even if most are not<BR>
Traveller, they may spark some ideas.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
How about the drives from the Honor Harrington universe?<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:09:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
One persons realism is another persons complexity.<BR>
<BR>
In view of this and as a result of a lack of canon detail I have decided<BR>
that a standard airlock has one explosive bolt for every five centimetres of<BR>
perimeter.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:40:46 -0400<BR>
From: Eric & Diane Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
At 02:11 PM 5/29/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Moin Legate Legion,<BR>
><BR>
> >     Oops, sorry, I should have said that the Vargr would not need to wear<BR>
> > shoes, as they are based upon the Terran Canine.<BR>
><BR>
>   well I think that shoes are a civilisation problem !<BR>
><BR>
>   I'm living in the rural and I prefer to walk without shoes, I only<BR>
>   use them when I have to do some bussiness in the city. The reason<BR>
>   is of course that civilisation is used to 'enslave nature'. City<BR>
>   have streets, and those are build on stone, tar or concrete. We dont<BR>
>   need shoes if we walk in nature, we need them because of our civilisation.<BR>
><BR>
>   So as Vargrs are as civilised as humans, they probately need shoes also.<BR>
><BR>
>Bye Michael<BR>
>--<BR>
>   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
>   http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Things to watch out for in nature:<BR>
<BR>
         sharp rocks,<BR>
         sharp flint (ouch),<BR>
         thorns (all varieties),<BR>
         walking on stone on a sunny summer day, d*** those rocks are hot!,<BR>
         I've seen people slice their feet open on natures very own "rocks" <BR>
in a river bed,<BR>
         Heavy things like branches, or (yep) rocks, falling on said feet,<BR>
         Sunburnt feet, which is really uncomfortable,<BR>
         biting insects such as ants or fleas,<BR>
<BR>
         last but not least, a good pair of steel toed boots come in real <BR>
handy whenever<BR>
         you have to protect yourself from a 100% all natural bad dog!<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure there are more reasons to wear shoes, but I just couldn't let this <BR>
one go by..<BR>
<BR>
I love to go barefoot at the beach, in my house and in my own yard.  I like <BR>
to wear shoes<BR>
when I go hiking or camping, because there's nothing like a good pair of <BR>
comfortable shoes<BR>
to protect your feet from hazards.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2522<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (rly-zd02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.226]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 11:43:32 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 11:42:22 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA96736;<BR>
	Mon, 29 May 2000 11:41:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 29 May 2000 11:41:15 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA96690<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 11:41:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:41:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005291541.LAA96690@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2522<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2523</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/29/00 2:31:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 29 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2523<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Re: In my mind I'm going to Carolina, ya'll<BR>
Traveller Artist<BR>
OT: Great Quotes<BR>
Re: Medical Technology and Anagathics<BR>
Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
OT: military customs and traditions<BR>
[www] 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated CORRECTION<BR>
Vs: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re:  Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:45:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
Hi, Rob.<BR>
<BR>
As far as I'm concerned, complex isn't as bad as _time consuming_.<BR>
The problem with FFS2 and World Builder's Handbook-level shipgen<BR>
and worldgen systems is that they take too much time. If they *didn't*<BR>
take so much time, their realism and level of detail would be more<BR>
than welcome.<BR>
<BR>
Rather than simply use simpler systems, though, I have my<BR>
own proposal: Future editions of Traveller should come with<BR>
sophisticated worldgen and equipment-building software. This info<BR>
could be left out of the main book completely and released in<BR>
supplements for die-hard fanatics (like me, as far as world creation<BR>
is concerned).<BR>
<BR>
More room would then be available for details that could be used<BR>
"right out of the box": More starships, a complete atlas of the<BR>
Spinward Marches (possibly with a paragraph per mainworld),<BR>
that sort of thing. That way, Traveller might appeal more to the<BR>
casual gamer, who finds lots of formulae and charts off-putting,<BR>
while still promising rich details for fanatics like us.<BR>
<BR>
But this only my opinion...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Cc: <val@nortelnetworks.com>; <fvogel@nortelnetworks.com>; <warlock@imagin.net>;<BR>
<winterhawk@mail.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:18 PM<BR>
Subject: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> A little something to wake everyone up.<BR>
> Hold on a moment while I don my Flame-resistant battledress.<BR>
><BR>
> -Rob<BR>
><BR>
> <grain-of-salt><BR>
> <rant><BR>
><BR>
> THE LESSON<BR>
><BR>
> This is a lesson for me and perhaps others on this list.<BR>
><BR>
> Complexity is not necessarily the same as detail.  Detail<BR>
> is a measure of finely organized features that add to the<BR>
> aesthetic appreciation of the subject.<BR>
><BR>
> Complexity is not necessarily the same as "realism".  When<BR>
> I say "realism", I really mean whatever word means the<BR>
> nature of a system to contain an easily discernable order<BR>
> amidst a larger impression of infinite variability, both of<BR>
> which have an affinity to human nature.  Rules can be discerned;<BR>
> the gestalt often cannot.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Theorem GOODPLAY-1:<BR>
>    Complexity is not a factor of good game play.<BR>
><BR>
> Corollary:<BR>
>    Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> EXAMPLES<BR>
><BR>
> (1) World Generation<BR>
><BR>
>     I am glad most Traveller material lacks world complexity<BR>
>     which adds next to nothing to most Traveller games.  The<BR>
>     Traveller basic world generation rules and system generation<BR>
>     rules are a good balance of detail, appropriate for a referee<BR>
>     to take and run with.  Each number is meaningful (I think)<BR>
>     and useful, and there's no major information left out.  Well,<BR>
>     except the X-Boat route markers...<BR>
><BR>
>     On the other hand...<BR>
><BR>
>     Worlds generated with a complex variety of numbers for<BR>
>     atmosphere, temperature gradients, chemical components,<BR>
>     weather patterns, axial tilt, &tc is useless beyond<BR>
>     a basic awareness of what the referee is going to<BR>
>     throw at you.  If you don't use it, why have it?<BR>
><BR>
>     Perhaps some people do use it?<BR>
><BR>
> (2) Starship Construction<BR>
><BR>
>     Aside from the Book 2 starship construction system, all<BR>
>     All ALL of the Traveller ship construction systems are<BR>
>     needlesly complex, and nearly devoid of the aesthetic value<BR>
>     that defines a good rules system.  This means I'm finally<BR>
>     tired of FFS2, and yes, even QSDS.<BR>
><BR>
>     My dilemma, then, is how to use a Book 2 framework while<BR>
>     retaining the excellent ideas in HG, MT, FFS2, GT.  How to<BR>
>     throw away the spreadsheet.  Yet how to remain true to<BR>
>     the intent of the published systems.<BR>
><BR>
> (3) Player Character Generation<BR>
><BR>
>     Here's one system that's done right.  Basic and Advanced<BR>
>     chargen are both sensible, complete systems, with realism<BR>
>     and detail.  Notice that the things that were done right<BR>
>     the first time change the least?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> CONCLUSIONS<BR>
><BR>
> Starship construction has changed in EVERY version of Traveller<BR>
> because it either (1) wasn't "complete", or (2) was too complex.<BR>
> The current incumbent, FFS2, smothers its robust detail with<BR>
> complexity.  As far as I can tell, starships designed with High<BR>
> Guard are just as "good" as ships designed with FFS2.  Better,<BR>
> perhaps, because the complexity added by FFS2 (area calculations,<BR>
> armor, hull, and structure points for example) and MegaTraveller<BR>
> (armor/penetration) are usually detrimental to game play.<BR>
><BR>
> But those minor quibbles I mentioned above aren't really the<BR>
> problem.  The problem is that FFS2 doesn't look good.  It looks<BR>
> like a workbook for a college physics class.  That's not play.<BR>
> That's homework: excellent for theory, lousy for playing.<BR>
><BR>
> This smacks of an unresolved issue that WON'T BE FIXED BY ANY<BR>
> REVISION OF FFS.  The reason is that FFS approaches the problem<BR>
> from the WRONG DIRECTION by attempting to replace true detail<BR>
> and "realism" with complexity.<BR>
><BR>
> I suppose what that means to me is that any construction system,<BR>
> whether built on FFS or no, should not LOOK like a simplified<BR>
> version of FFS: it should LOOK and FEEL something like Book 2's<BR>
> construction system.<BR>
><BR>
> </rant><BR>
> </grain-of-salt><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:14:18 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
><BR>
> >>     Do me a favor, think about this.  Phoenix, AZ gets really hot in the<BR>
> >> summer, around 120 degres hot.  Now, I want you to think about walking<BR>
> >> outside without shoes on.  OK, got that thought in your head?  Good.<BR>
> Now, I<BR>
> >> want you to think about how long it will take for your feet to heal after<BR>
> >> they have been burned by concrete that is hot enough to fry an egg on.<BR>
> You<BR>
> >> there now?  Good.<BR>
><BR>
> >When I was younger (IIRC) I lived in Brisbane, a city in a subtropical zone<BR>
> and<BR>
> >occasionally spent time during the sumer holidays with relatives in their<BR>
> home,<BR>
> >which was situated approximately in the tropic of capriorn...the thing is I<BR>
> have<BR>
> >memories of spending a lot of time in bare feet wandering around with the<BR>
> >temperature in the high 30's/ low 40's (centigrade) and never getting burnt<BR>
> >feet. My feet adapted and became very tough...on one occasion I pulled a<BR>
> piece<BR>
> >of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my<BR>
> foot...<BR>
><BR>
>     Correct, but I think humidity might have something to do with it.<BR>
<BR>
A vapor layer would help, but the water in humid air isn't<BR>
enough.<BR>
<BR>
A vapor layer is an insulating layer of vapor (groan)<BR>
that is created when layer of water, or other suitable liquid,<BR>
comes between two objects with different temperatures.<BR>
This allows you to hold a tablespoon or so of liquid<BR>
nitrogen in your mouth without suffering any damage,<BR>
if you make your mouth good and wet first (hold a mouthful<BR>
of water, spit most of it out, pour in the liquid nitrogen,<BR>
liquid nitrogen tries to freeze your mouth, but the water<BR>
protects it long enough for all of the nitro to evaporate.<BR>
Sounds crazy but I've seen it done.<BR>
<BR>
Very handy trick for picking up something hot too,<BR>
especially if you just need to handle something briefly<BR>
in a skillet.  Just dip your fingers first in water and move<BR>
fast.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:20:20 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Pity nobody told him that due to the way their muscles are attached, a<BR>
> chimp has about 10 times the leverage a human would get with the same<BR>
> size muscles... :-)<BR>
<BR>
So, Str 20-120 in Traveller Terms?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:37:57 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
Brace yourself for a Major Thrashing!<BR>
<BR>
(Heehee, I've been waiting for an excuse to<BR>
say that.  Since he made Major, Chris Thrash<BR>
has made the top of my "Coolest Names Ever"<BR>
list, edging out another Major, Major Lucien<BR>
Marcellus Major, an ancestor of mine.  I'm sure<BR>
he'll jump in soon as he is writing GT:Starships,<BR>
at least I think he is.)<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Theorem GOODPLAY-1:<BR>
>    Complexity is not a factor of good game play.<BR>
><BR>
> Corollary:<BR>
>    Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed.  Don't model reality, model people's perception<BR>
of reality, because reality is a pain in the ass.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> (1) World Generation<BR>
>     Perhaps some people do use it?<BR>
<BR>
I see your point about the lack of too much complexity in<BR>
world descriptions, but I think that what is useful to me,<BR>
and many others, is that one paragraph on a world that<BR>
GT:BtC has.  If I want to take the time to do everything,<BR>
and make work for myself, the flat numbers are fine.<BR>
But I'm lazy.  And I need inspiration.  BtC is perfect<BR>
for me in that sense.  I'll take one detailed sector with<BR>
squat for axial tilt, rotational period, etc., over all of<BR>
known space with full First In details.  (I think FI is great,<BR>
but it really does need to be a spread sheet where I<BR>
can change the variables as I want.  The same is true<BR>
for calculating price series in Far Trader.  But then I<BR>
hate math now.  :-).<BR>
<BR>
GT's modular system has some hope.  I haven't messed<BR>
with it much beacuse Rob Prior has done all the work<BR>
I'd ever want to do with his stuff.  I'm really looking<BR>
forward to see what Chris has done with it GT:Starships.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:51:09 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: In my mind I'm going to Carolina, ya'll<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 29 May 2000 08:43:48 -0400, "Sword-Worlder"<BR>
<swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Some may consider this terribly OT, but since it effects Downport.com I<BR>
>think it has some relevance.  After being unemployed/full-time student for<BR>
>the past 18 months, I have secured a job in Raleigh, North Carolina.  It<BR>
>will be a major transition moving there from Maine and will probably slow<BR>
>the pace of updates at Downport.com for the next few weeks.  By the end of<BR>
>June things should be back to normal (I hope).  I will remain on the list<BR>
>(skimming).<BR>
><BR>
>That brings up another topic, though:  any Traveller people in Raleigh?<BR>
>I've been a lone wolf here in Maine and I'm ready for a little face-to-face<BR>
>gaming if such a thing still exists ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations! NC is a beautiful state and Raleigh is a great place<BR>
to live and work. I lived about an hour south of there for six years.<BR>
There are several colleges around there and a bunch of high tech<BR>
industry so you are bound to find a group. The triangle is<BR>
Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill. Chapel Hill is a nice little college town<BR>
- - be sure and visit it if you get the chance. There a several good<BR>
used book stores and an Indian restaurant that is "to die for."<BR>
<BR>
BTW if you live in Cary you may feel right at home. The joke is that<BR>
Cary stands for Containment Area for Relocated Yankees. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"An organization is like a tree full of monkeys,  all on different levels. The <BR>
monkeys on the top look down and all they see are smiling faces, the monkeys <BR>
on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes."<BR>
                                     - Unknown (If you know, tell me.)<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:54:39 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Traveller Artist<BR>
<BR>
I was looking through some of my old Traveller stuff and was wondering if<BR>
anyone knows if David R. Deitrick is still drawing stuff for publication or<BR>
if he has a gallery online anywhere?  He did the cover for the Traveller<BR>
Starter Edition circa 1983, and some of the stuff for inside it also.  Loren<BR>
would probably be the best bet to know this one.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:06:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: OT: Great Quotes<BR>
<BR>
I am in search of your favorite quotes, I am going to make a Great Quotes<BR>
web page.  Send them all to me at Talon@skyenet.net .<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance and sorry to use up the bandwidth but this is a great<BR>
group of minds with wit and imagination and I can't imagine getting them<BR>
from a better group.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:07:22 -0400<BR>
From: peersce@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Medical Technology and Anagathics<BR>
<BR>
Regarding anagathics,<BR>
    I read about a researcher in the 80's who had  created an enzyme<BR>
treatment which affected human cells in such a way that they "reset their<BR>
count" on how many times they replicate, so that they kept replicating at<BR>
their normal rate.  What the cells did was behave as normal human cells do<BR>
for children and young adults.  The researched took a skin sample from a 70<BR>
year old man, treated it with this enzyme solution, and within a week the<BR>
sample had the healing ability, elasticity, and other characteristics of a<BR>
10 year old child.  IIRC, it stated in the reference that aging and lifespan<BR>
is genetically determined to a significant extent, and that if this<BR>
treatment could be perfected, treated individuals would not physically age,<BR>
and they would not die of old age related ailments and there would be no age<BR>
related limit on their lifespans.  None.<BR>
<BR>
    So.  Think of what would kill them.  Accidents, diseases, cancer from<BR>
200 years of toxins building up in the body or heredity, wars, crime,<BR>
suicide, eating unhealthy food, a long lifetime of ailments related to<BR>
alcohol, tobacco, and drugs.  For space travellers and workers, there's<BR>
radiation risks from working in space.  A highly protected individual like<BR>
the Emperor of the 3I might live for hundreds of years or even a thousand,<BR>
but would he have gone senile after the first 150?  It would truly be a fate<BR>
worse than death to live for hundreds of years and have advanced Alzheimer's<BR>
disease for the great majority of it.  Not to mention the effects of<BR>
population explosion, and the longevity of certain government types.<BR>
Perhaps for these reasons, the Terran Federation made such treatments<BR>
illegal.  They could cure aging, but they couldn't cure some of the<BR>
afflictions that come with being alive for so long, and it wasn't worth it.<BR>
Also, if it was invented by the Solomani, they're not going to sell it to<BR>
the Imperium, and the Imperium may not trust it if it comes from the<BR>
Solomani.<BR>
    Some Traveller Ideas:<BR>
1.The Solomani leadership has been using it for centuries, and keep the<BR>
treatment to themselves.<BR>
2.The treatment will prevent aging, but won't help senility or cancer,<BR>
making it worse than aging, so it was abandoned and the secret lost.<BR>
3. The treatment was effective and valuable, but difficult and expensive to<BR>
produce, and the secret of its manufacture was supposedly lost during the<BR>
Long Night.<BR>
4. The treatment might be in widespread use among rich and influential<BR>
Solomani, but the Imperial bureaucracy won't permit it to be legally<BR>
imported to the 3I.<BR>
5.  Anagathic treatments portrayed in published Traveller materials are<BR>
preferable, because if a debilitating condition occurs in the person taking<BR>
them, that person can just stop taking them and let him or herself grow old<BR>
and die, rather than having to live in a vegetable state or commit suicide.<BR>
6.  The treatment is effective and available (though highly expensive,<BR>
perhaps it has to be individually tailored), but most people just can't save<BR>
up the money, or they don't want it.  For cultural, personal, and religious<BR>
reasons, they're content to live the natural cycle of their lives.  Who<BR>
would want to outlive their children, and their children's children?  What<BR>
about boredom?  People who would want the treatment could possibly be quite<BR>
driven in search of some kind of goal that they can't reach in their<BR>
lifetime (such as a Solomani agent trying to bring down the 3I, or an anti<BR>
Imperial movement leader, a secret former Emperor trying to save the 3I from<BR>
decay from behind the scenes, or a Vargr politician who dreams of seeing his<BR>
people united, or even a scientist whose research is that important to him).<BR>
7.  Subsequent events are determined by the referee.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:13:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
<BR>
He is most certainly still working ;) David did the new Traveller poster we are releasing!<BR>
<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller/starmarine.html<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
QuikLink Interactive, Inc.<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********<BR>
<BR>
On 5/29/2000 at 11:54 AM Talon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I was looking through some of my old Traveller stuff and was wondering if<BR>
>anyone knows if David R. Deitrick is still drawing stuff for publication or<BR>
>if he has a gallery online anywhere?  He did the cover for the Traveller<BR>
>Starter Edition circa 1983, and some of the stuff for inside it also.  Loren<BR>
>would probably be the best bet to know this one.<BR>
><BR>
>Todd Moody<BR>
>http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:27:21 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: OT: military customs and traditions<BR>
<BR>
I went to our local memorial day parade this morning<BR>
and it was led by a riderless horse, with a pair of boots<BR>
reversed in the stirrups<BR>
and I was curious about the origin of this<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:05:21 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated CORRECTION<BR>
<BR>
In our last announcement, we noted that Christopher Thrash had<BR>
presented us with a Risus conversion for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
The page as posted shows the author as Christopher Thrash, and<BR>
grants copyright to him.<BR>
<BR>
Mr. Thrash has informed us that the byline should be "S. John<BR>
Ross with Christopher Thrash", and that copyright should be to<BR>
Mr. Ross.<BR>
<BR>
Please note that the rights acknowledgements at the bottom of the<BR>
page should read, in full,<BR>
<BR>
"This page last updated on 29 May 2000 by Jeff Zeitlin.  Text<BR>
©1999 S. John Ross (used with permission). Traveller additions<BR>
©2000 Christopher Thrash. Risus Game System ©1999 S. John Ross.<BR>
Page design ©1998-2000 Jeff Zeitlin.<BR>
Freelance Traveller is maintained by Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
Freelance Traveller can be contacted via our Feedback page or at<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
® Traveller is a registered trademark (1977-1998) of FarFuture<BR>
Enterprises. Use of the trademark on this page is not intended to<BR>
infringe upon or devalue the trademark.<BR>
™ Risus: The Anything RPG is a trademark of S. John Ross and<BR>
Cumberland Games & Diversions. Use of the trademark on this page<BR>
is not intended to infringe upon or devalue the trademark."<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller regrets our misunderstanding and resulting<BR>
errors, and the actual pages will be corrected at our earliest<BR>
opportunity.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:35:20 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:37 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/25/00 at 12:38 PM,  Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?=<BR>
> ><Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
> <BR>
> >>> Stinging nettles. <BR>
> >>Does anyone know if this is the plant known in finnis as<BR>
> >>"nokkonen"?<BR>
> <BR>
> >Valitettavasti sanakirjani ei ole toimistossa.<BR>
> <BR>
> Stop that cussing! <g><BR>
> <BR>
> I grew up as a barefoot boy in the summer. Many, many times I stepped on stinging nettles, but *never* on purpose.  I can't say the idea of eating the stuff ever crossed my head. <g><BR>
><BR>
If these stinging nettles are the same plant as nokkonen, then I must say that my mother has used them in cooking for years. Last time I heard she had made something from them was just two weeks ago.<BR>
 <BR>
> Ob Traveller:  Toxins and allergistic reactions from brushing against alien flora. Scouts better be prepared for anaphlactic shock. Oh, and some of those tainted atmospheres...spores from native plants?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
IMO allergens are a nice way of bringing some danger and trouble into scout type adventuers without relaying too much on critters with big pointy teeth. But this may have something to do with a recent change in my GM:ing style, towards games with less overt violence and gunplay. (It prpbably has something to do with my latest, almost a year long Mechwarrior 1st ed. campaign. Plenty of violence there...)<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:16:33 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Regina is SubSector Capitol and possibly Sector Capitol.<BR>
> <BR>
> And just as possible not. The source simply does not mention it.<BR>
<BR>
Not in so many words however it can be read as implying it.<BR>
<BR>
"Regina (1910) quickly established itself as a trade center<BR>
and the capitol." <BR>
<BR>
Since the text is talking about Regina Subsector on first reading<BR>
this suggests that this paragraph refers only to the subsector<BR>
capitol _however_ the text of the only other subsectors historical<BR>
paragraph to mention it's capitol says 'subsector capitol' not <BR>
merely 'capitol'. This can be read as implying or stating that <BR>
Regina is Sector Capitol during the historical period. None of <BR>
the other fourteen subsectors in the Marches has an Imperial <BR>
subsector capitol listed in the historical text (except for <BR>
District 268 and the text says that "its worlds are not members <BR>
of the Imperium").<BR>
<BR>
"Villis was the original subsector capital"<BR>
[SMC p 19]<BR>
<BR>
> >[Spinward Marches Campaign p 19] (circa 100 (?) - 1110 (?)) <BR>
> <BR>
> The UWPs in SMC is per 1110.<BR>
<BR>
Yes but the source I am using is the 'historical' text which<BR>
states that Regina was settled in 75 and 'soon' became capital<BR>
Therefore I am estimating that it became Subsector Capitol and<BR>
(arguably) Sector Capitol circa 100<BR>
<BR>
The UWP chart [SMC p 26-7] does show that circa 1110 Mora was<BR>
the Sector Capitol. This is why I'm suggesting that Regina was<BR>
the Sector Capitol until sometime shortly before 1110.<BR>
<BR>
> >Regina and Mora are both listed as Subsector Capitols and Sector Capitol<BR>
> >is not mentioned. [Sup 3] (circa 1105)<BR>
> >Never less I assume that the Spinward Marches _had_ a Sector Capitol in<BR>
> >1105, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> So do I.<BR>
 <BR>
> >Zhodani Embassy is on Regina which may suggest Regina is Sector Capitol or<BR>
> >may merely suggest Regina is more convenient. [JTAS 9 5FW War Issue]<BR>
> >(circa 1109)<BR>
<BR>
> The Zhodani presumably have embassies at both Regina and Mora. Propably also<BR>
> at the other subsector governments. <BR>
<BR>
Well the 'real' Zhodani embassy is on Capitol/Core. I'm not <BR>
sure that the Consulate has consulates at each subsectors<BR>
government and am not aware of any text that says that they do.<BR>
<BR>
> >Regina is Sector capitol [Reb SB p 71] (circa mid 1116)<BR>
<BR>
> Now that one I hadn't found. Score one for your side. Mind you, I still don't<BR>
> think it makes sense, but it certainly is evidence for your side. Of course,<BR>
> if Regina IS sector capital in 1116 it has nothing to do with Norris' status<BR>
> as archduke, since he isn't archduke in 1116.<BR>
<BR>
What I am suggesting that the evidence suggests is that:<BR>
<BR>
Regina was Sector Capitol until it was threatened by the Zhodani<BR>
in the Fifth Frontier War. Then it was moved to Mora which <BR>
was safer circa 1107 or so. After the war the capitol was moved <BR>
back to Regina. In 1117 the Sector Capitol was moved back<BR>
to Mora as Norris was initially concerned that Regina was <BR>
vulnerable. Sometime after 1127 or so but before 1200 the<BR>
Sector Capitol was again moved back to Regina but the Domain<BR>
and later the Regency capitol was left at Regina.<BR>
<BR>
> There are references in Megatraveller Journal to Mora being the sector<BR>
> capital and remaining the sector capital when Norris set up the domain<BR>
> capital there. <BR>
<BR>
Yes but this text only established that as of the date in <BR>
question Mora was Sector Capitol. It does not establish that<BR>
it had been Sector Capitol for long nor that it would stay<BR>
Sector Capitol for long.<BR>
<BR>
> And since Mora has been the most important Imperial planet<BR>
> in the Spinward Marches since the year 60, I consider that the most likely<BR>
> to be true.<BR>
<BR>
The fact that Mora is arguably the most important Imperial<BR>
planet in the Marches has little or nothing to do with it<BR>
becoming the Sector Capitol. Throughout history it has often<BR>
been the case that states on earth have their political capitols<BR>
at locations that are not the most important city in the realm.<BR>
I see no reason to suppose that this trend will not continue.<BR>
<BR>
What I am saying is that Norris even before he became Archduke<BR>
was (after the Fifth Frontier War) the Senior Archduke in the<BR>
Sector and that therefore he had the 'pull' to get the Capitol<BR>
returned to Regina.<BR>
<BR>
Given the mass of contradictory information the simplest <BR>
explanation I see is that the Sector Capitol was moved. Hence<BR>
I have provided an explanation for these possible moves which<BR>
I believe is consistent with the canonical evidence. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:00:15 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 29 May 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 29 May 2000 11:41:15 -0400 (EDT), "Stuart Ferris"<BR>
<stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> - The Paragon Traveller computer adventures have been located,<BR>
>>   and information added to the DOS program listing. You can find<BR>
>>   the info, along with links, on that page from the Computer<BR>
>>   Connection in the Information Center.<BR>
<BR>
>The links to these programs seem to be broken Jeff. I was looking forward to<BR>
>bathing in nostalgia, I had the Zhodani Conpiracy back in the days I owned<BR>
>an Atari ST.<BR>
<BR>
Being fixed as I write this - apparently, they rearranged the<BR>
site recently - and I also made some typos which weren't caught.<BR>
Thanx for the hedzup.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:08:17 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
At 06:06 PM 5/29/00 +1000, Other Rob wrote:<BR>
>When I was younger (IIRC) I lived in Brisbane, a city in a subtropical <BR>
>zone and<BR>
>occasionally spent time during the sumer holidays with relatives in their <BR>
>home,<BR>
>which was situated approximately in the tropic of capriorn...the thing is <BR>
>I have<BR>
>memories of spending a lot of time in bare feet wandering around with the<BR>
>temperature in the high 30's/ low 40's (centigrade) and never getting burnt<BR>
>feet. My feet adapted and became very tough...on one occasion I pulled a piece<BR>
>of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my foot...<BR>
Now how did the glass come OUT of the foot without cutting it? :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:23:35 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
On 05/29/00 at 06:06 PM,  Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>     Do me a favor, think about this.  Phoenix, AZ gets really hot in the<BR>
>> summer, around 120 degres hot.  Now, I want you to think about walking<BR>
>> outside without shoes on.  OK, got that thought in your head?  Good.  Now, I<BR>
>> want you to think about how long it will take for your feet to heal after<BR>
>> they have been burned by concrete that is hot enough to fry an egg on.  You<BR>
>> there now?  Good.<BR>
<BR>
><snip><BR>
<BR>
>When I was younger (IIRC) I lived in Brisbane, a city in a subtropical<BR>
>zone and occasionally spent time during the sumer holidays with relatives<BR>
>in their home, which was situated approximately in the tropic of<BR>
>capriorn...the thing is I have memories of spending a lot of time in bare<BR>
>feet wandering around with the temperature in the high 30's/ low 40's<BR>
>(centigrade) and never getting burnt feet. My feet adapted and became<BR>
>very tough...on one occasion I pulled a piece of glass out of my foot,<BR>
>cutting my fingers in the process but not my foot...<BR>
<BR>
Same with me in south Alabama and northwest Florida.  My feet aren't<BR>
up to it now, but I remember walking across hot tar and asphalt as a<BR>
kid.  I'd have burned if I stood still, but if I kept moving I was<BR>
all right.  I'd have to pick cooled tar and asphalt off the bottoms<BR>
of my feet later.  Concrete always seemed cool compared to asphalt.<BR>
The *real* pits was crushed rock in tar...that *hurt* if you walked<BR>
ast and burned if you walked slow.<BR>
<BR>
Thing is though, I only wore shoes when I *had* too (school and<BR>
church mostly) even in the winter months, so the soles of my feet<BR>
were pretty leathered. <BR>
<BR>
About Vargr, I figure they need some sort of protection on their<BR>
feet about as much as humans to given similar situations.  They do<BR>
have the sweating problem, though, so I suspect their "shoes" are<BR>
always made to breath.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2523<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (rly-zd02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.226]) by air-zd05.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:31:01 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:30:33 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA10622;<BR>
	Mon, 29 May 2000 17:25:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 29 May 2000 17:25:44 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA10582<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:25:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:25:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005292125.RAA10582@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2523<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2524</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/29/00 4:39:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 29 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2524<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Starship Construction<BR>
Religon: Word of God<BR>
Mission/Oreo/Massilia<BR>
Montero/Quinoid and Kestral/Jayna<BR>
Mir and Pizza Hut<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics questions<BR>
We Don't Need No Steenking Xboats!<BR>
System Details: How much is enough? (was: Why Starship Construction must change or die)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:01:14 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps he was testing a micro-jump drive in his sneakers to help get places<BR>
faster?  A mis-jump occurred, his foot materialized partially inside, say a<BR>
drinking glass, and he then removed the glass allowing the rest of his foot<BR>
to re-enter normal space leaving no marks whatsoever.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jimmy Simpson" <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 5:08 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
...on one occasion I pulled a piece<BR>
> >of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my<BR>
foot...<BR>
> Now how did the glass come OUT of the foot without cutting it? :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:50:04 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:18:56 -0700<BR>
> From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
> Subject: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
...<BR>
> (2) Starship Construction<BR>
> <BR>
>     Aside from the Book 2 starship construction system, all <BR>
>     All ALL of the Traveller ship construction systems are <BR>
>     needlesly complex, and nearly devoid of the aesthetic value <BR>
>     that defines a good rules system.  This means I'm finally<BR>
>     tired of FFS2, and yes, even QSDS.<BR>
> <BR>
>     My dilemma, then, is how to use a Book 2 framework while<BR>
>     retaining the excellent ideas in HG, MT, FFS2, GT.  How to <BR>
>     throw away the spreadsheet.  Yet how to remain true to<BR>
>     the intent of the published systems.<BR>
<BR>
The major difference between Book 2 and FF&S, FF&S2, and GT/VE2 is that<BR>
these last are general systems, which are intended to be adaptable to a<BR>
wide variety of different campaigns, while Book 2 is a single,<BR>
well-defined instance of a campaign. The additional complexity results<BR>
from the increased flexibility.<BR>
<BR>
The major difference between Book 2 and HG/TCS (which carries over into<BR>
all successors to HG/TCS) is that Book 2 ships are restricted to 5,000<BR>
dtons, while HG introduces ships up to 1,000,000 dtons. [Incidently, this<BR>
is why calling a 1,200-dton /Kinunir/ a battlecruiser was only slightly<BR>
ridiculous at the time -- its largest competitors were maybe 4 times its<BR>
size.]<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that a solution to your dilemma is to (1) restrict your<BR>
hulls to a displacement of 100 to 5,000 dtons, and (2) create a short list<BR>
of standardized starship components (maneuver drives, jump drives, etc.)<BR>
that are available for starship construction IYTU. Instead of using <BR>
general rules to *construct* components for every new design, you and your<BR>
players can simply choose from a menu of pregenerated components with<BR>
defined characteristics. <BR>
<BR>
For additional chrome, give each component a manufacturer and a brand name<BR>
(Mitsubishi A66-500 MWatt power plant, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:24:50 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Religon: Word of God<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
I had some free time this weekend, so I wrote up some stuff for Traveller.  The<BR>
first thing is a religion that I made up.  I wanted something that involved<BR>
intrigue and politics, and would have some hooks for adventure.  Next up a few<BR>
world write ups that involve the religion.<BR>
<BR>
Lewis<BR>
<BR>
- -----------<BR>
<BR>
In 547 Pierre Bothan began preaching what he called the Word of God on<BR>
Datarkt/Dethenes/Old Expanses.  That same day six other individuals began<BR>
preaching the exact same message on six other worlds in Old Expanses, Delphi,<BR>
Massilia and Diaspora sectors.  These individuals had no previous contact and<BR>
had no prior knowledge of each other.  In fact it would be several years before<BR>
they became aware of each other.  Since this time, numerous investigators have<BR>
tried and failed to find any evidence of prior connections to explain their<BR>
simultaneous epiphanies.  When asked to explain it, believers respond that it<BR>
was simply a miracle.<BR>
 <BR>
Each of the seven prophets quickly attracted a band of followers, who also began<BR>
spreading the Word of God.  Within five years the followers numbered in the tens<BR>
of thousands.  It was about then that the prophets became aware of each other. <BR>
They exchanged emissaries and agreed to a face to face meeting on<BR>
Mission/Oreo/Massilia.<BR>
 <BR>
The historic meeting took place on 200-552 in a small mountain chalet.  The<BR>
prophets sent away their staffs and for two weeks were alone with each other and<BR>
God.  They realized that they had all had the same inspiration to start<BR>
preaching, though it manifested itself in different ways.  The existence of<BR>
others preaching the same message cemented their beliefs in the correctness of<BR>
their teachings.  The seven decided to unify their followers and to create a<BR>
unified organization.<BR>
 <BR>
The prophets elected Pierre Bothan to be the first Patriarch of the church.  He<BR>
would hold supreme leadership over the church while the other six prophets would<BR>
continue to spread the Word.<BR>
 <BR>
They created the first temple on the very spot of their first meeting. It is a<BR>
magnificent building built of rose quartz, with soaring towers.  A  dozen<BR>
massive bronze bells are mounted in two belfries, and they ring out on the hour<BR>
and to call the faithful to services.  The temple is decorated with statuary and<BR>
other art that was donated or created by followers.  The Word rotates the art on<BR>
a yearly basis, and the rest of the art is on display in a nearby museum.  The<BR>
Word would come to dominate Mission and in 657 the bloodless coup overthrew the<BR>
ruling military dictatorship and installed the Patriarch as the ruler of the<BR>
world.<BR>
 <BR>
The Word of God is very missionary orientated. It sends out priests to bring the<BR>
word of God to the unenlightened.  These priests have spread the religion<BR>
throughout the trailing  portion of the Imperium and even to the border states<BR>
in the Hinterworlds, Glimmerdrift Reaches and Leonidae sectors.  Though it was<BR>
always strongest in the four sectors where it was created, the religion never<BR>
dominated the region. It had large congregations in most high population<BR>
worlds.  Throughout the later half of Imperial history, it was not unusual to<BR>
encounter wandering priests hitching rides on tramp freighters.  Some of these<BR>
priests even got as far as the Spinward Marches, though there is no evidence of<BR>
any congregations being formed in that Sector.<BR>
 <BR>
The Word of God has always been involved in politics.  Its members lobby their<BR>
governments to create laws more in keeping with the teachings of the Word.  In<BR>
some cases the Word has become the official state religion and has a hand in<BR>
ruling.  On other worlds it has become the government, and instituted a<BR>
theocracy.  On worlds that are controlled by the Word, much of the world's<BR>
economic output is used to further spread the Word.  The Word has always been a<BR>
strong supporter of the Imperium, and during times of war, its priests urge it<BR>
members to join the military to defend the Imperium. Many influential nobles in<BR>
the four original sectors are members of the Word of God.  These nobles give the<BR>
Word legitimacy and a small amount of influence on Imperial politics at the<BR>
sector level.<BR>
 <BR>
In 990 when the Solomani Rim war broke out, the Word had congregations<BR>
throughout the Solomoni Sphere.  These congregations were split on the issue of<BR>
Imperial rule.  Soon some of the congregations split from Word and formed their<BR>
splinter groups.   The original Word of God declared these splinter groups as<BR>
heretics.  This period saw the Word hiring mercenaries and assassins to settle<BR>
theological issues.<BR>
 <BR>
After the Rim War, the splinter groups that were in territory held by the<BR>
Imperium, were eliminated.  While the tactics used were often questionable, and<BR>
sometimes illegal, the Word escaped any official notice.  This was both because<BR>
of Word's strong support of the Imperium and because of the many noble members<BR>
of the Word.<BR>
 <BR>
Five splinter groups survived on the Solomani side of the border.  They regarded<BR>
each other as heretics and refused to cooperate.  For the most part the Solomani<BR>
government left them alone, though Solsec occasionally investigated the groups.<BR>
 <BR>
For the next one hundred years the Word continued to expand and make new<BR>
converts.  It continued its strong support of the Imperium, and many members<BR>
joined the Imperial armed forces.  This helped spread the religion to the<BR>
corners of the Imperium as members travelled during their tours of duty.  While<BR>
it may have converts in every sector of the Imperium, it is still strongest in<BR>
the trailing sectors.<BR>
 <BR>
When Dulinor assassinated Strephon, the Word initially supported the newly<BR>
crowned Emperor Lucan as the legitimate emperor.  Though when Margret broke from<BR>
the Imperium, the Word was torn between following the beloved Duchess of Delphi<BR>
and the legal emperor.  Margret also controlled much of the territory that the<BR>
Word was strongest in.  She also controlled the territory surrounding the Word's<BR>
central stronghold on Mission.  In 1117, the Matriarch declared that the Word<BR>
considered Lucan's claim to the throne to be illegal and possibly based on<BR>
criminal deeds.  She called on loyal members of the Word to support Margret. <BR>
Most congregations did so, while others continued to support Lucan, still others<BR>
remained neutral.  The mix became even more confused, when Strephon emerged and<BR>
claimed to be the true emperor.<BR>
 <BR>
The various factions of the Word issued claims of heresy against each other and<BR>
started religious wars against each other.  In 1120 the Solomani Confederation<BR>
helped one of the five splinter groups from the Rim War set up a new central<BR>
temple on Bonshar/21 Worlds/Old Expanses.  This group declared itself the true<BR>
heir of original prophets and declared that the<BR>
Imperium was corrupt and the Solomani Confederation deserved the loyalty of any<BR>
Word members.  The Solomani hoped that this would encourage worlds to join their<BR>
cause, but it was never particularly successful.  It did stop some of the<BR>
bickering on the Imperial Word congregations and focused them on the heretical<BR>
Solomani congregations.<BR>
 <BR>
The fighting only stopped when the Virus swept across the Imperium.  It<BR>
destroyed many of the Word's congregations, but some still survive in the New<BR>
Era.  The central temple on Mission survived the Chaos and still serves a small<BR>
congregation.   Though the central government has collapsed, and individual<BR>
towns are run by their parish priests with no coordination between towns.<BR>
 <BR>
The Word is organized in a hierarchical fashion.  At the top of the hierarchy<BR>
sits the Patriarch/Matriarch.  Below him are the Archcanons who each control the<BR>
dealings of the church in a given sector. Canon's control either an individual<BR>
world, or a group of worlds, depending on the number of followers the Word has<BR>
on the worlds.  Each world is divided up into congregations, which are centered<BR>
around a temple.  Usually congregations have a few hundred to a thousand<BR>
members.  Each congregation is assigned a priest.  High priests are<BR>
intermediaries between the priests and the Canons.<BR>
 <BR>
Wandering priests spread the Word to whomever will listen.  The wandering<BR>
priests are free from interference and can do as they see fit.  They are<BR>
required to notify the local canon of their arrival, and if they are heading<BR>
towards worlds that are not in a canon's bailiwick, they are to notify the<BR>
Archcanon of their location.  This allows the Canons to know where there is a<BR>
need to send more priests and to keep track of any new congregations.  It also<BR>
allows the priests to collect travelling funds.<BR>
 <BR>
The Word of God believes that by doing good deeds and obeying the laws of God, a<BR>
soul can purified and ascend to paradise.  People who have not been exposed to<BR>
the teachings of the Word of God are reincarnated until they have heard the Word<BR>
of God. After three lifetimes in which they have been exposed to the teachings,<BR>
and not converted, they are given up as a lost cause and their soul is<BR>
extinguished.   Those who profess to follow the Word of God, but corrupt the<BR>
teachings are declared heretics and their souls are condemned to an enternity of<BR>
suffering.  Those believers who stop following the Word of God are also<BR>
condemned.<BR>
 <BR>
The Word encourages its followers to have as many children as feasible.  The<BR>
Word knows that children tend to follow the religion of their parents, so this<BR>
way more non-believer souls are brought into believer families and are speed on<BR>
their way to paradise.  It also provides more resources for the Word and allows<BR>
it to spread the Word faster.  This has caused  some over population on some<BR>
worlds, but the Word has organized colonization efforts for worlds on the<BR>
Imperial frontier.<BR>
 <BR>
The Word preaches that believers should help those less fortunate than<BR>
themselves, and the Word has many charitable organizations which help the<BR>
homeless, the mentally ill, and distraught.  Followers of the Word must tithe<BR>
10% of their income.  The Word uses this money in its charitable activities and<BR>
to spread the Word.  Followers of the Word may not eat of the flesh of animals<BR>
and must prepare all foods in accordance with the Word's guidelines.<BR>
Members who try to alter the divine laws given down by the Word are declared<BR>
heretics, and it is the duty of all faithful members of the Word to destroy<BR>
heretics with any and all means.<BR>
 <BR>
The Word is not a human centric organization, in fact one of the seven prophets<BR>
was a Hresh (from T4's Alien Archives).  The teachings of the Word do not make<BR>
any distinction between humans and non-humans.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:27:53 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Mission/Oreo/Massilia<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
Here is a short writeup of Mission/Oreo/Massilia.  It makes reference to the<BR>
Word of God article I submitted earlier.<BR>
<BR>
- ------------<BR>
<BR>
Mission X574403-5<BR>
<BR>
Starport: None                     Size: Medium (7200-8800 km)<BR>
Atmosphere: Standard, tainted      Hydrographics: 40% water<BR>
Population: 20,000                 Govt: No government<BR>
Law Level: Low                     Technology: Industrial<BR>
<BR>
Since 552 Mission has been the site of the main temple of the Word of God.<BR>
In 657 the Word overthrew the ruling military dictatorship in a bloodless <BR>
coup.  They then set up the Word's Patriarch as the ruler of the world.  <BR>
During the Rebellion the Word declared for Margret and called for the <BR>
faithful to take up arms in her defense.  <BR>
<BR>
During the Collapse the world broke up into hundreds of small farming <BR>
and mining towns, with no central government.  The Word still survives,<BR>
though it is much weaker than it was. The individual parish priests now<BR>
rule their villages and have very little contact with the Patriarch. <BR>
The Patriarch rules the largest city of Genld which is centered on <BR>
the Temple. The people are happy with the current situation.  <BR>
Efforts to unite the towns under a central authority have so far <BR>
failed, though no one has tried to use force of arms.  In general <BR>
the citizens of Mission are content to go about their business and<BR>
to ignore the rest of the galaxy.  <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:30:45 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Montero/Quinoid and Kestral/Jayna<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
Here is the history of two worlds in the corward edge of the Old Expanses.  It<BR>
makes refence to the Word of God writeup and the Mission/Oreo/Massilia writeup. <BR>
<BR>
Lewis<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
<BR>
Montero B8656U9-9<BR>
<BR>
Starport: Good           Size: Large (12000-13600 km)<BR>
Atmosphere: Standard     Hydrographics: 50% water<BR>
Population: 9 million    Govt: Mystic Autocracy<BR>
Law Level: High          Technology: Early Stellar<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kestral B7588UC-7<BR>
<BR>
Starport: Good           Size: Medium (10400-12000 km)<BR>
Atmosphere: Thin         Hydrographics: 80% water<BR>
Population: 900 million  Govt: Mystic Autocracy<BR>
Law Level: Extreme       Technology: Pre-Stellar<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
During the late stages of the Hard Times the Archcanon of Quinoid David Montego,<BR>
who's seat was on Montero due to political reasons, realized that trying times<BR>
were ahead and that the people would need strength and forsight to see them<BR>
through.  Looking through Word history, he drew inspiration from the bloodless<BR>
coup that overthrew the dictatorship on Mission and installed a Word run<BR>
government.  The Archcanon organized a band of followers and stormed the<BR>
capital.  His forces were able to seize the capital, but it was far from<BR>
bloodless.  There was stiff resistance from elements in the military as well as<BR>
a general insurrection from the citizens.  The Archcanon was forced to put down<BR>
the resistance with brutal determination.  Millions died.  <BR>
<BR>
The Archcanon had not analyzed the situation on Montero well enough.  Unlike<BR>
Mission which was ruled by a unpopular dictator, Montero was governed by a true<BR>
representative democracy, which was highly valued by the people.  Even their<BR>
faith in the Word of God was not enough to allow the overthrow of the<BR>
government.<BR>
<BR>
While the Archcanon's political analysis skills were not highly refined, his<BR>
organizations skills were second to none.  Once the resistance was crushed, he<BR>
was able to organize the economy so that it resisted many of the degredating<BR>
effects of the Hard Times.  When Virus arrived on planet, he was able to quickly<BR>
organize efforts to deal with the initial damage and to halt the spread of the<BR>
infection. <BR>
<BR>
By 1153 the population had made up the losses of Hard Times and from Virus.  The<BR>
Archcanon was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer and had only a few months to<BR>
live.  A side of effect of the cancer, caused the Archcanon to have visions.  He<BR>
envisioned the Word being spread through the stars and bringing civilization<BR>
back.  In his last few months he issued orders for the starport to be<BR>
reactivated.  Several large freighters were converted to battle tenders and the<BR>
construction of battle riders started.  These were not the 100,000 ton battle<BR>
riders of the Imperium, but 100-5000 ton riders.  The Archcanon died before any<BR>
of the riders were finished, but his hand picked successor vowed to see his<BR>
vision to fruition.<BR>
<BR>
Archanon Melinda also increased the size of the army and began construction of<BR>
drop ships.  She dispatched Montero's remaining small jump capable vessels to<BR>
scout out the surrounding territory.  They were looking for planets that Montero<BR>
could easily convert to the Word.  Hopefully this could be done with words, but<BR>
if neccesary by force of arms.  In any case the jump capable vessels had to be<BR>
protected at all costs.  New spacecraft could be constructed, but starcraft were<BR>
beyond the capabilites of Montero's shipyards.  <BR>
<BR>
In 1158, the first crusaders left Montero.  A battle tender jumped into the<BR>
outer reaches of a system and refueled.  It then dropped several of its battle<BR>
riders, who contacted the planet.  The battle tender then remained far from the<BR>
target.  If neccesary it would jump for the home system at any sign of danger.  <BR>
<BR>
The first target world was Kestral. At the time Kestral UPP was E7586A-5.  It<BR>
was ruled by Prince Eneli who was backed by the Knights of the Thorn.  The<BR>
Knights were a group of several dozen individuals equipped with Imperial era<BR>
battle dress and TL-15 FGMPs.  Together they were able to keep the populace in<BR>
line.  After several months of negotiation, Prince Eneli agreed to convert to<BR>
the Word of God and make it the official state religion.  In exchange Montero<BR>
would supply technical aid to him. Montero quickly sent over thousands of<BR>
priests who went about converting the populace.  Prince Eneli also made sure<BR>
that any heretics were uncovered and put to death.   The Knights of the Thorn<BR>
were the chief instrument of the inquisistion.  <BR>
<BR>
In 1174 Prince Eneli died and passed the thrown to his daughter Princess Mileen,<BR>
who was also the Canon of Kestral.  She united the office of Prince and Canon<BR>
and decreed that the titles would be passed down to the first born of the<BR>
family.  The Kestral UPP was now up to its current value.  It was not able to<BR>
produce full battle riders due to its low technoglical level, but it was able to<BR>
provide maintenance and support to the ships built on Montero.<BR>
<BR>
In 1181 researchers under a grant from Princess Mileen uncovered evidence that<BR>
the universe had been created in seven days, rather than the six days which was<BR>
preached by the original prophets of the Word of God.  Princess Mileen studied<BR>
the texts herself and after several days of study and prayer, agreed with her<BR>
researchers.  She sent several of the researchers to Montero to present their<BR>
work to the Archcanon.  She also instituted the new teaching  on Kestral.  <BR>
<BR>
The researchers proudly presented their work to the Archcanon on Montero.  The<BR>
Archcanon was furious at their work and declared the researchers heretics for<BR>
their affrontery in claiming the orignal prophets could be wrong.  The<BR>
researchers were immediately executed.  The Archcanon sent a battle fleet of two<BR>
battle tenders to Kestral to determine how much support these heretics had, and<BR>
to wipe out any other traces of heresy.  The battle fleet demanded that the<BR>
Princess renounce this heresy and atone for her sins.  The Princess firmly<BR>
believed in the new discoveries and refused.  The canon in charge of the battle<BR>
fleet, retaliated by excommunicating the Princess and her followers.  The<BR>
Princess then realized that the Archcanon and the people of Montero had fallen<BR>
victim to a deep seeded heresy and she declared herself the true Archcanon of<BR>
Quinoid and called for a crusade against the heretics.<BR>
<BR>
The Monteran battle fleet tried to land troops on Kestral's capital, but they<BR>
were repulsed by battle riders under the control of Kestral.  The battle fleet<BR>
then retreated to Montero.<BR>
<BR>
Today the situation is a stalemate.  Montero has constructed hundreds of<BR>
battleriders and can deliver them to the Kestral system in several waves. <BR>
Kestral has only a few dozen battle riders that were built on Montero and can<BR>
not construct more.  It has built tens of thousands of planetary defense<BR>
missiles.  Montero's troops are better equipped, but Kestral has numerical<BR>
supremacy.  This military buildup has not helped either economy.  <BR>
<BR>
The theological difference that ignited this conflict may seem trivial and even<BR>
silly to outside observers, but it is of th utmost importance to believers.  The<BR>
Word of God places a great deal of importance on theological correctness and<BR>
heretics are regarded as the most serious threat.  True believers are granted<BR>
paradise, while heretics are condemned to eternal punishment.  If the heretical<BR>
side was to win this conflict, it would spread its heresy.  The converted<BR>
followers of this heresy would be condemned to eternal punishment, without even<BR>
being able to hear the truth.  Each side sees itself as on a crusade to save the<BR>
souls of the rest of the galaxy.  Neither side will compromise and will only<BR>
cease hostility when the other side has recanted.  <BR>
<BR>
Of course this was not the only cause of the conflict, Princess Mileen and the<BR>
Knights of the Thorn were feeling increasingly threatened by decrees from the<BR>
Archcanon, and felt that their power was being erroded.  The Archcanon realized<BR>
that Kestral would soon overtake Montero in terms of economic output and would<BR>
come to dominate the Word of God in the area.  <BR>
<BR>
Montero has a small jump capable navy of three converted freighters for use as<BR>
battle riders and a scout/courier and a far trader.  Montero still sends out<BR>
occasional crusaders, but has focused much of its energy on dominating<BR>
Kestral.   <BR>
<BR>
Free Traders come to Montero's port, as it is the best in the area, but they are<BR>
forced to listen to several hours of sermons in an effort to convert them.  Some<BR>
Free Trader captains refuse to come, while others regard it as a neccesary evil<BR>
if they want the best maintenance for their ships.  A few have even converted.  <BR>
<BR>
Kestral has no jump capable ships.  It has several dozen 500ton battle <BR>
riders. While it has a good starport, most Free Traders have been scared <BR>
away from coming here because of threats from Montero.  Montero also <BR>
occasionally drops battle riders in the system, which will attack any <BR>
ships they find.  This has isolated Kestral from the benefits of <BR>
interstellar trade.  Montero sees it as halting the spread of the <BR>
Kestral heresy.<BR>
 <BR>
The Knights of the Thorn are a knightly order open to all citzens of Kestral.  <BR>
There are 99 Knights at any time.  When a Knight goes to paradise, the next <BR>
canidate is knighted.  The canidates are choosen purely based on their <BR>
physical and religious qualifications.  There is very little if any <BR>
nepotism.  The Knights are sworn to uphold the crown and the Word of God.  <BR>
They have a strong sense of honor and will never break a vow.  If a <BR>
Knight is torn between two conflicting vows, he will choose to commit <BR>
suicide.  `Death before dishonor' is a very real concept to the Knights.  <BR>
While their are only 99 knights, and hence only 99 suits of battle dress, <BR>
there are quite alot spare parts.  A shipment of supplies for an Imperial <BR>
marine division was stranded on Kestral and the spare parts enable the <BR>
Knights to keep their suits going.  It also has plenty of ammunition <BR>
for their fusion guns.  Canidates knights form an elite unit which backs <BR>
up the Knights on their missions.  They are equipped with TL-7 gear. This gives<BR>
the Knights the chance to  see the canidates in action before they are picked<BR>
for knighthood.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:39:20 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Mir and Pizza Hut<BR>
<BR>
Hy Folks,<BR>
<BR>
  I think to remeber an article in the newspaper some weeks ago that<BR>
  stated that the owner of Pizza Hut is now also the owner of the Mir.<BR>
<BR>
  The article stated that he had payed the outstanding salary at<BR>
  Baikonur (e.g.  a programmers wage is around DM120/$60 per month)<BR>
  for the last year, and invested some additional 100 million dollars.<BR>
<BR>
  I now wonder that, the Pizza Hut website doesnt mention this, but<BR>
  only the advertising on the Proton rocket. Do anybody have more<BR>
  concrete informations ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:40:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics questions<BR>
<BR>
.> From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
> Subject: Shipboard Gravitics Questions<BR>
><BR>
> This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
> I've been thinking a bit on the implications of GURPS style gravitic<BR>
> technologies (ie. AG and CG units) aboard spacecraft, and I have a<BR>
> few questions about them. (Since Traveller uses gravitics from GTL8<BR>
> on I'm crossposting this to TML.)<BR>
><BR>
> 1.) Can contragravity be applied to a spaceship's internal payload<BR>
>     to reduce its total *weight* so that less lift would be required<BR>
>     for it to takeoff from a planet's surface? Example: A Puller<BR>
>     Class Assault Ship [GT:SM p.72] has 1700 tons of manuver thrust<BR>
>     and a loaded mass of 1796.245 stons when carrying 6 heavy grav<BR>
>     tanks [p.79] of 191.3 stons each. If the *weight* of the tanks<BR>
>     can be neutralized [which it will be in G fields up to 2.5], the<BR>
>     ship should be capable of a vertical liftoff in any G field less<BR>
>     than 2.55 Gs.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Umm, my interpretation is if you have 0.7 gees of contragrav and 0.5 gees of<BR>
t-plates, then you get 1.2 gees of thrust when the contragrav's working<BR>
(powered up and within 10 diameters).<BR>
<BR>
> 2.) Can a ship with AG reduce its internal gravity to less than the<BR>
>     external gravity field it resides in? (Who needs a CG forlift in<BR>
>     a zero-G cargo hold?)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes. This is what grav compensators can do.<BR>
<BR>
You still want the fork, btw, becasue zero gee is an unforgiving environment<BR>
to work in.<BR>
<BR>
> 3.) What happens when the *direction* of the internal and external<BR>
>     gravity fields don't match?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You stress the grav comps. Shouldnt be a problem, unless you bought cheap<BR>
one gee units.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:22:25 -0500<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: We Don't Need No Steenking Xboats!<BR>
<BR>
Nature magazine posted the following today.<BR>
The full story is at:<BR>
http://helix.nature.com/nsu/000601/000601-5.html<BR>
<BR>
- --- quote ---<BR>
Science-fiction authors wanting to get their<BR>
characters rapidly around a Universe too big<BR>
to cross in a million lifetimes often invoke<BR>
the 'tachyon', a particle that travels faster<BR>
than light. But physics textbooks give no <BR>
credence to the tachyon. That the speed of<BR>
light represents the cosmic speed limit is, <BR>
after all, the central tenet of Albert <BR>
Einstein's theory of special relativity.<BR>
<BR>
Yet physicists have known for some years now<BR>
that light pulses can be persuaded to break<BR>
this limit -- but only fleetingly and over<BR>
short distances. Now a team of Italian <BR>
physicists report that they can send a <BR>
faster-than-light pulse of microwaves over<BR>
more than a metre. These experiments re-open <BR>
the question of sending information faster than<BR>
light...<BR>
- --- end quote ---<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:35:50 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: System Details: How much is enough? (was: Why Starship Construction must change or die)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/31/00 at 09:18 AM,  Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>A little something to wake everyone up.<BR>
>Hold on a moment while I don my Flame-resistant battledress.<BR>
<BR>
>-Rob<BR>
<BR>
Hee, hee!  Rob, you know how to shake things up don't you.  <g> I<BR>
changed the title because you didn't limit yourself to starship<BR>
contruction in your rant, and neither am I.<BR>
<BR>
><grain-of-salt><BR>
><rant><BR>
<BR>
>THE LESSON<BR>
<BR>
>This is a lesson for me and perhaps others on this list.<BR>
<BR>
>Complexity is not necessarily the same as detail.  <BR>
<BR>
Right and as a general rule, I'm against complexity.  I *like*<BR>
elegant.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, I'm slow, sometimes, so when you say...<BR>
<BR>
>Detail is a measure of finely organized features that add to the<BR>
>aesthetic appreciation of the subject.<BR>
<BR>
..do you mean something like?  Detail is useful as long as it adds<BR>
meaning and pleasure to a thing, but becomes counterproductive when<BR>
it doesn't."<BR>
<BR>
>Complexity is not necessarily the same as "realism".  <BR>
<BR>
True, although some of the things we model *are* complex and as we<BR>
approach "simulation" we become increasingly complex.<BR>
<BR>
>When I say "realism", I really mean whatever word means the<BR>
>nature of a system to contain an easily discernable order<BR>
>amidst a larger impression of infinite variability, both of<BR>
>which have an affinity to human nature.  Rules can be discerned;<BR>
>the gestalt often cannot.<BR>
<BR>
Slow me again..."If we get too complex striving for realism we lose<BR>
sight of the forest while examining the trees in detail.  Instead we<BR>
should be striving to experience the forest."...is that your point?<BR>
<BR>
>Theorem GOODPLAY-1:<BR>
>   Complexity is not a factor of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
"Keep It Simple Stupid?"<BR>
<BR>
>Corollary:<BR>
>   Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
When they don't descend into needless complexity.  Hum, maybe by<BR>
realism you mean some sort of "game realism"..close enough to the<BR>
real thing, but focused on game-play not complete simulation?<BR>
<BR>
>EXAMPLES<BR>
<BR>
>(1) World Generation<BR>
<BR>
>    I am glad most Traveller material lacks world complexity<BR>
>    which adds next to nothing to most Traveller games.  The <BR>
>    Traveller basic world generation rules and system generation <BR>
>    rules are a good balance of detail, appropriate for a referee <BR>
>    to take and run with.  Each number is meaningful (I think)<BR>
>    and useful, and there's no major information left out.  Well,<BR>
>    except the X-Boat route markers...<BR>
<BR>
I disagree here.  I don't think the detail here *is* enough from the<BR>
basic system, say B3.<BR>
<BR>
>    On the other hand...<BR>
<BR>
>    Worlds generated with a complex variety of numbers for<BR>
>    atmosphere, temperature gradients, chemical components,<BR>
>    weather patterns, axial tilt, &tc is useless beyond<BR>
>    a basic awareness of what the referee is going to<BR>
>    throw at you.  If you don't use it, why have it?<BR>
<BR>
>    Perhaps some people do use it?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, some of us DO use it...some of it anyway.  Rob, I don't use a<BR>
lot of the details that are generated here, but I *do* use some of<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
Other worlds in a system:  "There are 4 worlds in the Findley<BR>
    system.  Stricklan, Findley-2, is where most of the population<BR>
    lives, but Capps, Findley-3, has a number of small mining<BR>
    operations that, in the past, were a good source for small<BR>
    cargos and a good market for luxury items."<BR>
<BR>
Star Type/Size:  "You step out of the ship's hatch on Stricklan and<BR>
    are greeted by the blindingly bright white light of the F2V sun.<BR>
    Almost instinctly, you all reach for your sunglasses.  Running<BR>
    around without protection from the UV on this planet is a good<BR>
    way to end up in Sickbay."<BR>
<BR>
Gravity:  "This is a 1.3 g planet, so that 30 kg ruck sack you want<BR>
    to carry around all day weighs 40 kg here.  You can *really*<BR>
    tell the difference after a few hours.  The straps are fairly<BR>
    *digging* into your shoulders."<BR>
    <BR>
Temperture/Rotation/Axial Tilt:  "It is early autumm in Stricklan,<BR>
    the morning air is crisp and cool at 20c, but with a 30 hour day<BR>
    it heats up to almost 40c by the afternoon.  What are you going<BR>
    to wear for your day long trip into town?"<BR>
    <BR>
Rob, I don't have to *like* the complexity needed to get those<BR>
details, but I want them...and use them.  The WBH level of detail<BR>
really is great, use as much or little as you need.  The complexity<BR>
problem comes in trying to produce all that detail, and that's what<BR>
computers are for.  <g> Heaven & Earth, for example, gives you a ton<BR>
of detail with little effort...again, I don't use it all, but having<BR>
it available *if* I want it is great.<BR>
<BR>
>(2) Starship Construction<BR>
<BR>
>    Aside from the Book 2 starship construction system, all <BR>
>    All ALL of the Traveller ship construction systems are <BR>
>    needlesly complex, and nearly devoid of the aesthetic value <BR>
>    that defines a good rules system.  This means I'm finally<BR>
>    tired of FFS2, and yes, even QSDS.<BR>
<BR>
>    My dilemma, then, is how to use a Book 2 framework while<BR>
>    retaining the excellent ideas in HG, MT, FFS2, GT.  How to <BR>
>    throw away the spreadsheet.  Yet how to remain true to<BR>
>    the intent of the published systems.<BR>
<BR>
Rob, I agree there *is* a problem here, but it's a complex one.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
What you are modeling is complex and to get reasonable details<BR>
requires complex calcuations with many steps.  Again, this is a job<BR>
for a computer program.  Andy Akins FFS2 software, for example, lets<BR>
you create a very complex starship with not much more effort than<BR>
manually doing a B2 ship. <BR>
<BR>
And I really do want to know these details.  I want to know how<BR>
long, wide and height my vehicle is.  I want them to have sensors<BR>
and for those sensors to have an affect.  I want to know how much<BR>
power my power plant is putting out, and have to deal with<BR>
disapating waste heat (and having problems when someone shoots up my<BR>
radiators).  I want big ships to run out of surface area, and little<BR>
ships to run out of volume.  Sure I want it easy, and for NPC ships<BR>
simple rules of thumb are good enough, but I still need those<BR>
details because of *how* I want to use them...see below.<BR>
<BR>
As an aside, I think the weapons rules *are* too complex and I<BR>
haven't found a program that takes as much effort out of them as for<BR>
Worlds or the other ship systems.  That's where I'd focus on<BR>
reducing complexity, or at least hiding it with a good software<BR>
system.<BR>
<BR>
Rob, my problem with the ship/weapon detail is that they aren't<BR>
*used* in the game!  All that detail about sensors, armor, surface<BR>
area, etc that you refer to later isn't effectively and *elegantly*<BR>
used in ship operations and combat.  That's the failure, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
>(3) Player Character Generation<BR>
>  <BR>
>    Here's one system that's done right.  Basic and Advanced<BR>
>    chargen are both sensible, complete systems, with realism<BR>
>    and detail.  Notice that the things that were done right <BR>
>    the first time change the least?<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I won't argue about that.  <g> Frankly, and this might surprise<BR>
some folks, but I think any of systems is okay, if it produces<BR>
characters that the players want to play and stays within the scales<BR>
needed for the rules.<BR>
<BR>
></rant><BR>
></grain-of-salt><BR>
<BR>
Well, my conclusion is that systems shouldn't produce detail that<BR>
isn't going to be used, but some GM's use more detail than others.<BR>
Therefore, Traveller should provide all the detail the various<BR>
groups want without confusing or frustrating those that don't<BR>
need/want it.<BR>
<BR>
The level we have in First In or WBH isn't too much detail, although<BR>
the complexity of producing that detail is daunting if you are doing<BR>
it manually.  Therefore, it makes sense to provide simplified<BR>
subsets as basic rules for manual creation, more complex rules that<BR>
are meant to be done only by those that want that detail, and<BR>
computerized them at that.<BR>
<BR>
The exact same thing can be said about ship, vehicle and weapon<BR>
design systems.  Simple systems that are a sub-set of the complex<BR>
like FFS1 & 2 and Gurps Vehicles 2 is the way to go, again with<BR>
computer assistance.  What SJG is doing with GT and Space III come<BR>
to mind.<BR>
<BR>
However, let me add that someone needs to put together unified<BR>
encounter, operation and combat systems that *use* the details.  If<BR>
I have 2 cm of crysteliron armor on my ship, I want to have it be<BR>
worth something if someone is shooting at me, and I need to know how<BR>
much worth that is when I *design* the darn ship.  <BR>
<BR>
I need to be able to say, "Okay, the system lets me put a PEMS array<BR>
on my ship...how is that useful to me, and what's the difference in<BR>
a 13 and a 13.5 sensitivity...is it worth the extra<BR>
cost/space/power?"<BR>
<BR>
I need to be able to answer a player who asks, "Can I resolve a 2<BR>
dton air/raft on the surface of the planet from orbit with these<BR>
sensors?  Can I use my Sensors-4 skill to improve my odds of seeing<BR>
it?"<BR>
<BR>
And let's not forget, "I want to fire my 80 Mj turret laser at that<BR>
concrete block house in Stricklan...it's listed as a (+0, +6) 13:10<BR>
on my sheet... what kind of damage is it going to do to a building?"<BR>
<BR>
Heck, you know as well as I do that there ought be some standard way<BR>
of scaling all the way from personal level to starships that is<BR>
clearly and elegantly explained.  Personally, I think DSR, MSC and<BR>
RPSCS are steps in the right direction.  Not as elegant and complete<BR>
as they need to be, but steps in the right direction.  At the risk<BR>
of starting a *fuss*, I think GURPS *could* do it...but doesn't<BR>
quite, and that might be as much my lack of understanding as that<BR>
system's fault.<BR>
<BR>
Does that make sense to anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2524<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 19:39:31 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 19:38:51 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA15786;<BR>
	Mon, 29 May 2000 19:38:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 29 May 2000 19:37:59 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA15748<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 19:37:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:37:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005292337.TAA15748@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2524<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2525</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/29/00 7:55:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 29 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2525<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2524<BR>
Re: glass/feet<BR>
Re: Barefootin'<BR>
Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
Re: Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Darian Worlds<BR>
Re: Religon: Word of God<BR>
Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Roc: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: VBasic Character Generator  <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:02:19 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFC9A0.69E48EC0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
Well, I have v1.0 of Sector Painter Ready.  It should work on any =<BR>
machine that can drop to DOS or on any DOS machine.  The EXE file and =<BR>
OBJ file are only 109k togather, so I will Email it to anybody who is =<BR>
interested in seeing it.  If you want to try to convert the program to =<BR>
another OS I will also be happy to mail you the Qbasic code.  Hower, if =<BR>
you build a Windows version of the program I want a copy of it.<BR>
<BR>
To those who are annoyed by DOS programs I can only apologize, for I do =<BR>
not know any newer program languages than Qbasic.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFC9A0.69E48EC0<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3013.2600" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>Well, I have v1.0 of Sector Painter =<BR>
Ready.&nbsp; It=20<BR>
should work on any machine that can drop to DOS or on any&nbsp;DOS=20<BR>
machine.&nbsp; The EXE file and&nbsp;OBJ file are only 109k togather, so =<BR>
I will=20<BR>
Email it to anybody who is interested in seeing it.&nbsp; If you want to =<BR>
try to=20<BR>
convert the program to another&nbsp;OS I will also be happy to mail you =<BR>
the=20<BR>
Qbasic code.&nbsp; Hower, if you build a Windows version of the program =<BR>
I want a=20<BR>
copy of it.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>To those who are annoyed by DOS =<BR>
programs I can only=20<BR>
apologize, for I do not know any newer program languages than=20<BR>
Qbasic.</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFC9A0.69E48EC0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:28:07 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
<BR>
<rant><BR>
<grain-of-salt><BR>
<BR>
As I said before, complexity is not the same as realism<BR>
or detail.  Complexity is related to micromanagement,<BR>
which is not what typical gaming sessions are all about.<BR>
<BR>
Our ship construction systems have no "simple" versions, <BR>
only "complex" ones.<BR>
<BR>
Christopher Thrash's view on FFS is a common one, that<BR>
I also held until recently:<BR>
<BR>
> [The systems after Book 2] are general systems, which are <BR>
> intended to be adaptable to a wide variety of different <BR>
> campaigns, while Book 2 is a single, well-defined instance <BR>
> of a campaign. The additional complexity results from <BR>
> the increased flexibility.<BR>
<BR>
An additional point he made is that Book 2 rules limit ship<BR>
sizes to 5,000 dtons.  <BR>
<BR>
I believe that, in general, our attempts to make "simple" or <BR>
"quick" design systems have failed.<BR>
<BR>
Let me respond to Mr. Thrash's points with an illustration from <BR>
the QSDS Small Table of Hulls.  QSDS is a single, well-defined<BR>
instance of Traveller, tailored for Milieu Zero.  Note how<BR>
it oozes complexity, yet it's not fundamentally more flexible<BR>
than Book 2.  And the added options don't cause the complexity:<BR>
rather, the whole layout is unjustifiably complex.<BR>
<BR>
   Wedge,  Streamlined  (100 tons): Volume=94.1<BR>
   Needle, Streamlined  (100 tons): Volume=92.8<BR>
   Needle, Streamlined (1000 tons): Volume=947.8<BR>
<BR>
First, a "Quick" system should probably ignore fractions.<BR>
In fact, why bother having these (volume) differences at all <BR>
with QSDS?<BR>
<BR>
Second, is it any real sacrifice to multiply the 100-ton<BR>
hull by 10 to get stats for the 1000-ton hull?  Is this<BR>
list of ever-so-slightly-off differences "flexibility" or <BR>
really just needless complexity?  Isn't QSDS supposed to be <BR>
off-the-shelf components, rather than detailed custom <BR>
productions built to order?  Then there's your handwave for <BR>
a beneficial simplification.<BR>
<BR>
Third, this principle probably should be extended to<BR>
cover all but the most general of starship hulls -- <BR>
that is, unstreamlined, streamlined, and airframe hulls.<BR>
Saving 1.3% by selecting a wedge hull should be for the<BR>
gearhead to worry about, while the rest of us should only<BR>
worry about losing 5% of the ship's volume to make it<BR>
airframe.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming a design system could work consistently well<BR>
in that manner, does it really rob the game of necessary <BR>
detail?  Or doesn't it instead free up the designer from<BR>
a tangle of hull calculations or indexing through massive<BR>
tables?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Some corollary points:<BR>
<BR>
(1) FFS2 isn't "general" inasmuch as it is all-inclusive.<BR>
    I may be wrong, but the only general rules in it are <BR>
    physics principles, plus formulae for thrust, armor,<BR>
    power, etc.  Maybe that's just semantics, but what it <BR>
    tells me is that FFS2 is more like a collection<BR>
    of rules than one rule book; thus its strength lies <BR>
    in its completeness rather than its cohesiveness.<BR>
<BR>
    Put another way, the rules aren't as important for <BR>
    FFS2 as the fact that everything's there and it all<BR>
    works (well, actually, I hear rumors that it doesn't<BR>
    always work, but never mind).  Thus it may be time<BR>
    well spent on simplifying the rules rather than <BR>
    straining my computer with spreadsheets.<BR>
<BR>
(2) There are separate rules for all the various vehicles.  <BR>
    In that sense, FFS2 is not general, but quite specific,<BR>
    and I can compare starship design in FFS2 with the<BR>
    milieu-specific, starship-specific design systems:<BR>
    HG, MT and T4, for example.<BR>
<BR>
    Please note that their complexity rivals FFS2, except<BR>
    that they rely on tables and use higher-level components.<BR>
    Nevertheless, I can see that tables do not make a system<BR>
    simpler.<BR>
<BR>
    I *might* compare these systems (even QSDS) with advanced <BR>
    solar system generation.  But I would not compare them <BR>
    with basic generation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(3) My argument is from aesthetics; from user friendliness.<BR>
    Book 2 (for all its crippling limitations) was done very <BR>
    well.<BR>
<BR>
    It seems to me that some small sacrifices can add up to <BR>
    a better system:<BR>
  <BR>
       Give up the fractions.<BR>
    <BR>
    And adding in some alternate rules to simplify certain<BR>
    aspects of the game can slash out massive amounts of<BR>
    work.  For example:<BR>
<BR>
       Have the option of using Die Modifiers so I don't <BR>
       have to do any tedious armor calculations (and<BR>
       decisions, for that matter).  High Guard's lack of<BR>
       armor (it used DM's, didn't it?) gave us two benefits: <BR>
       first, it freed us from doing some accounting; second, <BR>
       it made fighters dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
</grain-of-salt><BR>
</rant><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:44:44 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2524<BR>
<BR>
No, the subject line is NOT a mistake.  This really IS about all of the<BR>
previous digest.  I just wanted to say that after more than a week of<BR>
largely crapulent digests, the last one was chock-full of good stuff.<BR>
There were articles on game-world religions (as opposed to RL ones) and<BR>
world descriptions, along with discussions about levels of detail in<BR>
starship/world/character creation (as opposed to WWI and WWII). As I am<BR>
sometimes heard to say when sipping strong coffee "Ooh...ya, THAT's the<BR>
stuff!" (Guiness too!)<BR>
<BR>
Oh crap, I just realized this email is going to reduce the signal-to-noise<BR>
ratio.  By complimenting good behaviour, I'm committing bad behaviour?<BR>
TANJ!<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:59:56 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: glass/feet<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-29 19:39:31 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< ...on one occasion I pulled a piece<BR>
 > >of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my<BR>
 foot...<BR>
 > Now how did the glass come OUT of the foot without cutting it? :)<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
When I had a paper route, and used to walk several miles at 5 AM each day, I <BR>
developed a slab of callous on the soles of my feet that was quite thick, <BR>
especially around the edge of the heel. I once stepped on a thumbtack and <BR>
drove it at least 1/8" into the skin without drawing blood -- I could feel <BR>
it, and it was uncomfortable, but not painful.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:03:43 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Barefootin'<BR>
<BR>
<< We dont need shoes if we walk in nature, we need them because of our <BR>
civilisation. >><BR>
<BR>
Any hookworm where you live?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:03:52 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
<BR>
<< I was looking through some of my old Traveller stuff and was wondering if<BR>
 anyone knows if David R. Deitrick is still drawing stuff for publication or<BR>
 if he has a gallery online anywhere?  He did the cover for the Traveller<BR>
 Starter Edition circa 1983, and some of the stuff for inside it also.  Loren<BR>
 would probably be the best bet to know this one.>><BR>
<BR>
David WHo? Never heard of him   :  )<BR>
<BR>
Unless he's the same guy we're using for the cover of GT: Ground Forces . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:56:03 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/31/00 at 07:28 PM,  Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>  And adding in some alternate rules to simplify certain<BR>
>    aspects of the game can slash out massive amounts of<BR>
>    work.  For example:<BR>
<BR>
>       Have the option of using Die Modifiers so I don't <BR>
>       have to do any tedious armor calculations (and<BR>
>       decisions, for that matter).  High Guard's lack of<BR>
>       armor (it used DM's, didn't it?) gave us two benefits: <BR>
>       first, it freed us from doing some accounting; second, <BR>
>       it made fighters dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Now, it comes out!!! Rob just wants to make fighters dangerous. <g><BR>
<BR>
Rob, how long is that ship you're designing? How wide? How many decks? I want to make a deckplan...that's not un-needed complexity is it?  <BR>
<BR>
Look, I still think there should be something simple derived from something more complex. I think *both* should have all the details that are needed by a unified system of operation and combat..the task system if you will. I think the more complex system should provide the extra chrome that some folks might want.   If you get the complex system done *right* and specify what is needed by those tasks then...and *only* then...you can create the simple system. <BR>
<BR>
Rob that has never been done in Traveller history!  Believe it or not, GT's system actually comes closest.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:03:55 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
<BR>
On 05/29/00 at 07:02 PM,  "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, I have v1.0 of Sector Painter Ready.  It should work on any machine<BR>
>that can drop to DOS or on any DOS machine.  The EXE file and OBJ file<BR>
>are only 109k togather, so I will Email it to anybody who is interested<BR>
>in seeing it.  If you want to try to convert the program to another OS I<BR>
>will also be happy to mail you the Qbasic code.  Hower, if you build a<BR>
>Windows version of the program I want a copy of it.<BR>
<BR>
I'd love to have a copy!<BR>
<BR>
>To those who are annoyed by DOS programs I can only apologize, for I do<BR>
>not know any newer program languages than Qbasic.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, DOS works on almost every system out there, either directly or with an emulator, and it doesn't crash half so much as some of the new more trendy OS's, so don't apologize. <BR>
<BR>
Tell you what, if anyone wants to play with *my* System detailer, I'll complie a DOS version of it and put it on my website. it's about as limited an interface as I could make and *very* heretical...as befits anything of mine...in its rules. <g> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:18:21 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:06 PM 5/29/00 +1000, Other Rob wrote:<BR>
> >When I was younger (IIRC) I lived in Brisbane, a city in a subtropical<BR>
> >zone and<BR>
> >occasionally spent time during the sumer holidays with relatives in their<BR>
> >home,<BR>
> >which was situated approximately in the tropic of capriorn...the thing is<BR>
> >I have<BR>
> >memories of spending a lot of time in bare feet wandering around with the<BR>
> >temperature in the high 30's/ low 40's (centigrade) and never getting burnt<BR>
> >feet. My feet adapted and became very tough...on one occasion I pulled a piece<BR>
> >of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my foot...<BR>
> Now how did the glass come OUT of the foot without cutting it? :)<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps I have phrased this incorrectly...both fingers and foot were cut, but only<BR>
my finger bled...the cut on my foot was only in the thick epidermal layer and did<BR>
not bleed.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:12:02 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Darian Worlds<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFC9AA.2764BD40<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
I have been looking through my old Alien Moduels and noticed that there =<BR>
are no special rules for generating Darian worlds.  I was wondering if =<BR>
there were any published rules in later editions of the game. I want to =<BR>
incorperate them into Sector Painter 1.1.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFC9AA.2764BD40<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
<HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3013.2600" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>I have been looking through my old =<BR>
Alien Moduels=20<BR>
and noticed that there are no special rules for generating Darian =<BR>
worlds.&nbsp;=20<BR>
I was wondering if there were any published rules in later editions of =<BR>
the game.=20<BR>
I want to incorperate them into Sector Painter 1.1.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Thanks</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFC9AA.2764BD40--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:31:05 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Religon: Word of God<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi,<BR>
><BR>
> I had some free time this weekend, so I wrote up some stuff for Traveller.  The<BR>
> first thing is a religion that I made up.  I wanted something that involved<BR>
> intrigue and politics, and would have some hooks for adventure.  Next up a few<BR>
> world write ups that involve the religion.<BR>
><BR>
> Lewis<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> The Word preaches that believers should help those less fortunate than<BR>
> themselves, and the Word has many charitable organizations which help the<BR>
> homeless, the mentally ill, and distraught.  Followers of the Word must tithe<BR>
> 10% of their income.  The Word uses this money in its charitable activities and<BR>
> to spread the Word.  Followers of the Word may not eat of the flesh of animals<BR>
<BR>
Before the collapse had the Word spread into K'kree space? after? what would thy<BR>
think? If my modeling of K'kree thought is correct, a strongly hierarchical religon<BR>
preaching vegetarianism would probably appeal strongly to them. The missionaries<BR>
would probably be a group rather than an individual though.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> and must prepare all foods in accordance with the Word's guidelines.<BR>
> Members who try to alter the divine laws given down by the Word are declared<BR>
> heretics, and it is the duty of all faithful members of the Word to destroy<BR>
> heretics with any and all means.<BR>
><BR>
> The Word is not a human centric organization, in fact one of the seven prophets<BR>
> was a Hresh (from T4's Alien Archives).  The teachings of the Word do not make<BR>
> any distinction between humans and non-humans.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:36:15 -0700<BR>
From: James DeBenedetti <jdredd@ns.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
<BR>
>Rob, how long is that ship you're designing? How wide? How many decks? I<BR>
>want to make a deckplan...that's not un-needed complexity is it?<BR>
><BR>
>Eris<BR>
<BR>
CT just gave you a ratio of squares to tonnage (I can't remember - 1 square<BR>
per ton?), and you made your own deckplan.  No complexity required.<BR>
Staterooms, power plants, etc. all have tonnage requirements, so it was<BR>
easy to give them the proper space allocation.  It may not have been<BR>
"proper," but it was fun, easy, and usable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:02:50 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>About Vargr, I figure they need some sort of protection on their<BR>
>feet about as much as humans to given similar situations.  They do<BR>
>have the sweating problem, though, so I suspect their "shoes" are<BR>
>always made to breath.<BR>
><BR>
>Eris<BR>
>--<BR>
I am guessing that when they drew the first pictures of the Vargr that it<BR>
simply "looked cooler" to put them in boots, and you'll get no argument form<BR>
me there.  But wouldn't some sort of sandal work better to allow them to<BR>
breathe?<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:48:25 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 6:06 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >     Do me a favor, think about this.  Phoenix, AZ gets really hot in the<BR>
> > summer, around 120 degres hot.  Now, I want you to think about walking<BR>
> > outside without shoes on.  OK, got that thought in your head?  Good.<BR>
Now, I<BR>
> > want you to think about how long it will take for your feet to heal<BR>
after<BR>
> > they have been burned by concrete that is hot enough to fry an egg on.<BR>
You<BR>
> > there now?  Good.<BR>
><BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
> When I was younger (IIRC) I lived in Brisbane, a city in a subtropical<BR>
zone and<BR>
> occasionally spent time during the sumer holidays with relatives in their<BR>
home,<BR>
> which was situated approximately in the tropic of capriorn...the thing is<BR>
I have<BR>
> memories of spending a lot of time in bare feet wandering around with the<BR>
> temperature in the high 30's/ low 40's (centigrade) and never getting<BR>
burnt<BR>
> feet. My feet adapted and became very tough...on one occasion I pulled a<BR>
piece<BR>
> of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but not my<BR>
foot...<BR>
><BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I live on the Gold Coast (3/4 hours south of Brissie) and it still counts.<BR>
I did it and now my children did it... they get hot tar off the road<BR>
sticking to their feet, or the rubber thongs they wear (flip-flops,<BR>
whatever) melt!  But still no burnt feet...<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:48:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
> > I have no problem with this position... But what do we do if<BR>
>> > the GT and GDW material are in irreconcilable conflict? For<BR>
>> > example, there's a world in the Spinward Marches that has a<BR>
>> > population of millions in Supplement 3 and the Imperial Atlas,<BR>
>> > but in the billions in Behind the Claw. What source do we<BR>
>> > believe?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Hmmm ... S3 is circa 1105, BtC is circa 1116 ...<BR>
>><BR>
>> (b)  I've always taken  S3  (and  similar  sources)  to  be  IISS<BR>
>>      records and open to error.  IIRC there was  an  introductory<BR>
>>      adventure (Adventure 0)  which  was  based  around  a  group<BR>
>>      resurveying worlds in the Spinward Marches to help clear  up<BR>
>>      errors and ommissions  from  IGS-2.  Thus  S3  is  in  error<BR>
>>      (something which can sometimes trip up the complacant PC).<BR>
><BR>
>A thousand-fold error!?! Yikes!<BR>
><BR>
>"We used to think the US had a population of 250 million. We now<BR>
>realize it was only 250,000. It turns out that everyone in the US<BR>
>lives in New Haven, Connecticut. We apologize for the error, sir."<BR>
><BR>
>Although it does lead one to wonder... How the hell does the IISS<BR>
>determine world population anyway? My guess was that each world<BR>
>conducted its own census and reported its results to the IISS,<BR>
>but that may be a bit too sensible to be true...<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
><BR>
It goes something like this:<BR>
<BR>
"Let me get this strait Erni, the IISS message says that we have to do a<BR>
census to report our population?"<BR>
"That's right sir."<BR>
"And then we pay taxes to the Imperium based on those numbers?"<BR>
"Yes sir."<BR>
"And the last IISS survey ship to pass this way was 180 years ago?"<BR>
"Yes sir."<BR>
"Okay here's what we do...."<BR>
<BR>
PC's visit world five years later:<BR>
"Gee Insha I just don't understand it. Imperial Survey says the population<BR>
of this world is only 250 million, but that city down there has got to have<BR>
a population larger than that all by itself."<BR>
"Damn IISS survey must be outdated..."<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:54:19 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
> I am guessing that when they drew the first pictures of the Vargr that it<BR>
> simply "looked cooler" to put them in boots, and you'll get no argument form<BR>
> me there.  But wouldn't some sort of sandal work better to allow them to<BR>
> breathe?<BR>
> <BR>
Why not something like jungle boots, or the newer kevlar sided boots.  Light<BR>
weight, durable, breathable.  Sandals don't really protect the foot well.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:57:39 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob, how long is that ship you're designing? How wide? How <BR>
> many decks? I want to make a deckplan...that's not un-needed <BR>
> complexity is it?<BR>
<BR>
In the end, a rulebook cannot dictate your deckplans.<BR>
Often enough, the concept lends itself to the deckplans<BR>
and the design together, rather than one depending on<BR>
the other.<BR>
<BR>
I know, ignoring length spaces area calculations.  <BR>
I'm not sure that area is really all that great a thing.  <BR>
Call me a heretic ;) ... just don't call me a gearhead.<BR>
In fact, I've never paid attention to area, and our games<BR>
still occasionally suffer from Too Much Detail.  I think<BR>
there are ways to avoid this level of micromanagement<BR>
while retaining detail.<BR>
<BR>
Here's our problem: we've fallen into the M.I.T. mindset<BR>
of "concentrate on getting it perfect" rather than <BR>
"concentrate on making it playable".<BR>
<BR>
> I think the more complex system should provide the extra chrome <BR>
> that some folks might want.<BR>
<BR>
I'd go further.  I'd prefer to leave the hairy numbers and formulae <BR>
at the complex level as well.<BR>
<BR>
And here's the whole point of my argument:<BR>
<BR>
> If you get the complex system done *right* and specify what is <BR>
> needed by those tasks then...and *only* then...you can create the <BR>
> simple system.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob that has never been done in Traveller history!<BR>
<BR>
Half credit.  That's because we're operating under the "M.I.T."<BR>
philosophy, which says "get it perfect".  As a result<BR>
nothing ever gets done.  I say "get it playable", because <BR>
perfection is unattainable.<BR>
<BR>
It has been done, albeit backwards.  Book 2 and High Guard are <BR>
complementary yet not quite mutually exclusive.  And that system<BR>
is STILL alive in die-hard players and reprints, while all the <BR>
other systems (save GT) are currently OOP.  CT enjoyed the <BR>
longest reign ... I think it was also the most accessible, user <BR>
friendly version of Traveller.  I hope T4.1 seeks to master user<BR>
friendliness, while being based on the complexity of FFS.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
As I muttered earlier, FFS2 may or may not be right, but <BR>
rightness isn't the point: the point is it's *complete*, <BR>
and thus it is available for simplification.  Now, as for <BR>
losing game-playable detail: well, everything in FFS2 should <BR>
have consequences to game play, or else it has no business <BR>
being there.  A simplification will by its nature lose <BR>
things that are possible to use in a Traveller game;<BR>
se la vie.  Our gearhead games will use Andy Akins' <BR>
spreadsheet; our Standard games will use a system appropriate<BR>
to the ship designs... probably Book 2, because all those<BR>
additions aren't worth the effort to use.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:21:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
>> A thousand-fold error!?! Yikes!<BR>
>><BR>
>> So there was a one zero missing in the data transmited to the IISS.<BR>
>> This sort of error is quite common.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Like when I recieved 200 wire terminators instead of 2000 when I ordered<BR>
>> them in the Air Force.<BR>
>><BR>
>> In this case the stores clerk had decided _I_ had made an error, and<BR>
>> couldn't possiby have meant 2000. In fact we were about to do two<BR>
>> updates that required re-wiring two aircraft each of which had more<BR>
>> than a thousand wires of this thickness, and each wire needed two<BR>
>> terminators, one on each end. So we needed _more_ than 2000, but 200o<BR>
>> was the largest amount I could sign for at my rank.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm reminded of the air base someplace well inland (Colorado?) got one<BR>
>number wrong on a requistion shortly after the switch to a unified<BR>
>parts numbering system for all the armed services...<BR>
><BR>
>They wound up with a *large* ship's anchor.<BR>
><BR>
Then there' the almost legendary supply chit that the Damage Control<BR>
Assistant (A junior officer whose duties were concerned with, among other<BR>
things, ship's water and fuel tanks.) managed to get passed the supply<BR>
personnel who are suppose to prevent those kinds of accidents.  Said<BR>
individual managed to order one "Tank, Marine" and received an armored<BR>
vehicle of the type used by the USMC.<BR>
<BR>
Such stories, even if untrue, tend to point out the perceived mentality<BR>
military logistic bean counters, who are thought to have no clue of the<BR>
importance of the materials they are responsible for delivering to the front<BR>
line troops, to who said material is often a manner or life and death.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:51:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.com><BR>
Subject: Re: VBasic Character Generator  <BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested in the project files!  ;)<BR>
<BR>
douglas<BR>
<BR>
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com<BR>
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas<BR>
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls<BR>
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because<BR>
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 10:42 AM<BR>
Subject: re: VBasic Character Generator <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> >  Are you going to share? <BR>
> ><BR>
> >:) <BR>
> >Peez <BR>
> <BR>
> Geez, it's kind of embarrassing to look at.  Stat increases<BR>
> didn't work (I *knew* I should have kept them in a global<BR>
> array, instead of have the primary version be in a form<BR>
> based text box), it sometimes drops auto and career-related<BR>
> skills (not sure why, probably because I use a different<BR>
> AddSkills procedure for each), the changes to "house rules"<BR>
> (survival vs wounds, reenlistment checks) don't always save,<BR>
> every roll on the Cash Benefits table grants a nice round<BR>
> Cr10000 (an overflow error when the table is rolled on)...it<BR>
> doesn't even do Cascade Skills or Aging Rolls!!<BR>
> <BR>
> I've got an idea of what needs to go into version 2, but there<BR>
> seem to be other alternatives out there already for chargen...<BR>
> now that I have some programming experience, I want to try something<BR>
> that hasn't been done before.<BR>
> <BR>
> I just felt so good getting an "A" that I had to share...if someone<BR>
> wants to chuckle at my code (Visual Basic 6.0), let me know and<BR>
> I'll email a copy.<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2525<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></BIG></BIG><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 22:55:17 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 May 2000 22:54:26 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA23690;<BR>
	Mon, 29 May 2000 22:53:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 29 May 2000 22:52:43 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA23402<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 22:52:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:52:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005300252.WAA23402@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2525<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</BIG></HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2526</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/30/00 1:33:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2526<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT: military customs and traditions<BR>
Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
[OT] Maltese Falcon (with an Ob Trav)<BR>
Vargr sweat<BR>
[OT] Capital Capitol<BR>
Re: [OT] Maltese Falcon (with an Ob Trav)<BR>
Re: Vargr sweat<BR>
Re: Mora and Regina<BR>
Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Theologically sound orthodoxy<BR>
Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics questions<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:55:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: military customs and traditions<BR>
<BR>
At 12:27 PM 5/29/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>I went to our local memorial day parade this morning<BR>
>and it was led by a riderless horse, with a pair of boots<BR>
>reversed in the stirrups<BR>
>and I was curious about the origin of this<BR>
<BR>
The horse is suppossed to be that of a dead cavalry officer, with his boots<BR>
reversed to indicate he was dead.  Watch a tape of JFK's funeral sometime.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:22:21 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/29/00 at 06:36 PM,  James DeBenedetti <jdredd@ns.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Rob, how long is that ship you're designing? How wide? How many decks? I<BR>
>>want to make a deckplan...that's not un-needed complexity is it?<BR>
<BR>
>CT just gave you a ratio of squares to tonnage (I can't remember - 1<BR>
>square per ton?), and you made your own deckplan.  No complexity<BR>
>required. Staterooms, power plants, etc. all have tonnage requirements,<BR>
>so it was easy to give them the proper space allocation.  It may not have<BR>
>been "proper," but it was fun, easy, and usable.<BR>
<BR>
CT, was two per dton, I think, 1.5x1.5x3m squares are ~ one half dton. OTOH, 1 prefer 1x1x3.5m squares..ie quarter dtons. If you want to simplify, why not just use standard quarter ton blocks...the "Lego" design system. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:31:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
At 09:18 AM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Theorem GOODPLAY-1:<BR>
>   Complexity is not a factor of good game play.<BR>
><BR>
>Corollary:<BR>
>   Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
OK, but what you go on to describe is not parts of game play, but elements<BR>
of world building.  It's like going to see a play. The players don't see<BR>
all the rigging and lights that create the dramatic effect, but if it were<BR>
missing, it would be noticeable by its absence.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>EXAMPLES<BR>
><BR>
>(1) World Generation<BR>
><BR>
>    I am glad most Traveller material lacks world complexity<BR>
>    which adds next to nothing to most Traveller games.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>    Worlds generated with a complex variety of numbers for<BR>
>    atmosphere, temperature gradients, chemical components,<BR>
>    weather patterns, axial tilt, &tc is useless beyond<BR>
>    a basic awareness of what the referee is going to<BR>
>    throw at you.  If you don't use it, why have it?<BR>
<BR>
Because you might be able to use it.  Someday.  In some manner.  Take for<BR>
example San Francisco.  Through a trick of climate, we have a very cool<BR>
climate with lots of fog.  When it rains, it comes in waves.  Absolutely<BR>
useless information, by try to imagine "The Maltese Falcon" shot in a set<BR>
of generic streets and apartments.<BR>
<BR>
Heya's wild weather was a surprise when I generated it.  The world is<BR>
whipped by almost constant storms.  This gives me plot complications and<BR>
ideas that can enhance even the most banal of visits to the world.  Even<BR>
the simple fact that it is always rainy and windy.  This affects<BR>
architecture, geography.. so instead of Yet Another Startown you have<BR>
buildings with elaborately decorated rain gutters draining into massive<BR>
storm drains, large enough for people to move through, unless of course<BR>
they get swept away in a flood...<BR>
<BR>
That took me five seconds.  And I can back up the math showing who much<BR>
energy there is in the atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
>(2) Starship Construction<BR>
><BR>
>    Aside from the Book 2 starship construction system, all <BR>
>    All ALL of the Traveller ship construction systems are <BR>
>    needlesly complex, and nearly devoid of the aesthetic value <BR>
>    that defines a good rules system.  This means I'm finally<BR>
>    tired of FFS2, and yes, even QSDS.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Then don't use it, but let the gearheads churn out ships for you.  Or go<BR>
even further, and just ignore ship stats entirely!<BR>
<BR>
I ran a 2300AD game in which the players never learned a damn thing about<BR>
the ships they traveled on.. they existed only as plot devices.  Just do that.<BR>
<BR>
>Starship construction has changed in EVERY version of Traveller<BR>
>because it either (1) wasn't "complete", or (2) was too complex.<BR>
>The current incumbent, FFS2, smothers its robust detail with <BR>
>complexity.  As far as I can tell, starships designed with High<BR>
>Guard are just as "good" as ships designed with FFS2.  Better,<BR>
>perhaps, because the complexity added by FFS2 (area calculations,<BR>
>armor, hull, and structure points for example) and MegaTraveller<BR>
>(armor/penetration) are usually detrimental to game play.\<BR>
<BR>
I have to disagree, since I dislike the abstract nature of those ships.<BR>
You cannot reduce everything down to a simple hex string!<BR>
<BR>
>But those minor quibbles I mentioned above aren't really the<BR>
>problem.  The problem is that FFS2 doesn't look good.  It looks<BR>
>like a workbook for a college physics class.  That's not play.<BR>
>That's homework: excellent for theory, lousy for playing.<BR>
<BR>
I flunked out of high school, and have no trouble using FFS.  It has no<BR>
theory, just plug and play rules.<BR>
<BR>
>I suppose what that means to me is that any construction system,<BR>
>whether built on FFS or no, should not LOOK like a simplified <BR>
>version of FFS: it should LOOK and FEEL something like Book 2's <BR>
>construction system.<BR>
<BR>
Which is almost 25 years old and, to be harsh, not very good.  I prefer to<BR>
have a bit more control over my designs than "plug three modules into a<BR>
hull from table 2, and make up crap about it to cover the cracks."<BR>
<BR>
The game in which I used the Terrapin Exploration Cruiser almost never<BR>
needed all the details of the design, yet when those details were needed, I<BR>
had them at hand.  At one point, the ship had to use its own power plant to<BR>
power an old defense station.  Rather than being forced to handwave it, the<BR>
*players* could look at the requirements, and what their ship could put<BR>
out, and see how close a thing it was going to be.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:36:24 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/29/00 at 08:57 PM,  Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Half credit.  That's because we're operating under the "M.I.T."<BR>
>philosophy, which says "get it perfect".  As a result nothing ever gets<BR>
>done.  I say "get it playable", because  perfection is unattainable.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, perfection isn't attainable.  <g> But proper foundations<BR>
make for stable houses.<BR>
<BR>
>It has been done, albeit backwards.  Book 2 and High Guard are <BR>
>complementary yet not quite mutually exclusive.  And that system is STILL<BR>
>alive in die-hard players and reprints, while all the  other systems<BR>
>(save GT) are currently OOP.  CT enjoyed the  longest reign ... I think<BR>
>it was also the most accessible, user  friendly version of Traveller.  I<BR>
>hope T4.1 seeks to master user friendliness, while being based on the<BR>
>complexity of FFS.<BR>
<BR>
I believe it was Jens that was talking about "Good enough is the<BR>
enemy of the best."  B2 and HG are "good enough" for the CT system,<BR>
but the CT system doesn't include some things that I want to<BR>
include, things like sensors.  Now, Rob, I've always included them,<BR>
but with B2 and HG I had to make up my own rules...or fake it.<BR>
That's fine for me, frankly, but then *I'm* quite willing to "make<BR>
it up as I go", others aren't.<BR>
<BR>
>As I muttered earlier, FFS2 may or may not be right, but <BR>
>rightness isn't the point: the point is it's *complete*, <BR>
>and thus it is available for simplification.  Now, as for <BR>
>losing game-playable detail: well, everything in FFS2 should  have<BR>
>consequences to game play, or else it has no business  being there.  A<BR>
>simplification will by its nature lose <BR>
>things that are possible to use in a Traveller game;<BR>
>se la vie.  <BR>
<BR>
Such as?  What do you want to sacrifice?  Area?  No, no, not *that*,<BR>
I want to use that.  Sensors?  No, no, not *that*, I want...and so<BR>
on.  Seriously, Rob, what *you* are willing to sacrifice may, or may<BR>
not be what others are willing to sacrifice, nes pa?  <and no I<BR>
can't spell in french or otherwise g><BR>
<BR>
>Our gearhead games will use Andy Akins' <BR>
>spreadsheet; our Standard games will use a system appropriate to the ship<BR>
>designs... probably Book 2, because all those<BR>
>additions aren't worth the effort to use.<BR>
<BR>
The point I'm making Rob, is that we need an agreed to *use* system,<BR>
not a desige system FIRST.  If we know what we need to know, then we<BR>
can make sure our designs give it to us.<BR>
<BR>
IAC, I'm not sure we're getting anywhere with this discussion.  I<BR>
think we are on the same side of the playablity argument.  We've<BR>
just staked out positions on either side of a centerline of how to<BR>
get there and started sniping at each other.  That's not really very<BR>
productive is it? <g><BR>
<BR>
What I would ask is "How do we get there?"<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:37:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
From: Talon <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
<BR>
>I am guessing that when they drew the first pictures of the Vargr that it<BR>
>simply "looked cooler" to put them in boots, and you'll get no argument<BR>
form<BR>
>me there.  But wouldn't some sort of sandal work better to allow them to<BR>
>breathe?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    If we use "Cool Paws" as the basis for the boots, they breath rather<BR>
well, & the pad of stuff that holds the water really works to keep the paw<BR>
cool.  I have a couple of t-shirts that have the same stuff in them & they<BR>
do keep you nice & cool, even on the hottest day.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:45:39 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
On 05/30/00 at 11:18 AM,  Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps I have phrased this incorrectly...both fingers and foot were cut,<BR>
>but only my finger bled...the cut on my foot was only in the thick<BR>
>epidermal layer and did not bleed.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like you, Loren, and I were all barefoot boys.  <g> I still<BR>
have the hard callouses around my heels, softer now that I'm more<BR>
civilized, but still there.<BR>
<BR>
No, let's get back to the Vargr. <BR>
<BR>
Loren, do Vargr inherit their sweat glands on nose, feet and hands<BR>
from their canine ansestors, or have they more general radiators<BR>
like we primates?  Is every handshake with a Vargr like "grabbing a<BR>
wet fish?"<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 06:46:42 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>Peter Newman writes:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>>Regina is SubSector Capitol and possibly Sector Capitol.<BR>
>><BR>
>>And just as possible not. The source simply does not mention it.<BR>
><BR>
>Not in so many words however it can be read as implying it.<BR>
><BR>
>"Regina (1910) quickly established itself as a trade center<BR>
>and the capitol." <BR>
<BR>
[Are you sure it says capitol? The Capitol (according to my dictionary<BR>
there's only one) is the building where the US Congress sits.]<BR>
<BR>
Since I don't have the book with me, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure<BR>
it is talking about Regina's early days, back when it became a center for<BR>
a number of surrounding worlds BEFORE they all joined the Imperium _en<BR>
bloc_. It is quite plausible that Regina did become a capital quite early.<BR>
<BR>
>Yes but the source I am using is the 'historical' text which<BR>
>states that Regina was settled in 75 and 'soon' became capital<BR>
>Therefore I am estimating that it became Subsector Capitol and<BR>
>(arguably) Sector Capitol circa 100<BR>
<BR>
The Regina Cluster didn't join the Imperium until 250. At that time the<BR>
Imperium had had a presence in the sector for 190 years. MY estimate is<BR>
Mora had been the most important Imperial world in the Marches for the<BR>
whole time.<BR>
<BR>
>Well the 'real' Zhodani embassy is on Capitol/Core. I'm not <BR>
>sure that the Consulate has consulates at each subsectors<BR>
>government and am not aware of any text that says that they do.<BR>
<BR>
Nor am I, but subsector governments are said to have considerable autonomy<BR>
(just how much is something Chris Thrash and I are discussing at the<BR>
moment ;-), so the notion is not, IMO, unreasonable.<BR>
<BR>
>What I am suggesting that the evidence suggests is that:<BR>
><BR>
>Regina was Sector Capitol until it was threatened by the Zhodani in the<BR>
>Fifth Frontier War. Then it was moved to Mora which was safer circa 1107<BR>
>or so. After the war the capitol was moved back to Regina. In 1117 the<BR>
>Sector Capitol was moved back to Mora as Norris was initially concerned<BR>
>that Regina was vulnerable. Sometime after 1127 or so but before 1200 the<BR>
>Sector Capitol was again moved back to Regina but the Domain and later<BR>
>the Regency capitol was left at Regina [sic].<BR>
<BR>
All this ignores one fact: That all this time the sector duke of the Spinward<BR>
Marches is Delphine and not Norris. As sector duke, Delphine is the head of<BR>
the sector government. I find it just a bit more likely that Delphine would<BR>
set up shop on her own world than on Regina.<BR>
 <BR>
>>There are references in Megatraveller Journal to Mora being the sector<BR>
>>capital and remaining the sector capital when Norris set up the domain<BR>
>>capital there. <BR>
> <BR>
>Yes but this text only established that as of the date in question Mora<BR>
>was Sector Capitol. It does not establish that it had been Sector Capitol<BR>
>for long nor that it would stay Sector Capitol for long.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it does say that it has been sector capital long enough for a whole<BR>
arcology to be built to house the sector government.<BR>
<BR>
>>And since Mora has been the most important Imperial planet in the Spinward<BR>
>>Marches since the year 60, I consider that the most likely to be true.<BR>
><BR>
>The fact that Mora is arguably the most important Imperial planet in the<BR>
>Marches has little or nothing to do with it becoming the Sector Capital.<BR>
>Throughout history it has often been the case that states on earth have<BR>
>their political capitols at locations that are not the most important city<BR>
>in the realm. I see no reason to suppose that this trend will not continue.<BR>
<BR>
OK, let me rephrase that: And since Mora is the seat of the sector duke,<BR>
I consider that most likely to be true.<BR>
<BR>
>What I am saying is that Norris even before he became Archduke was (after<BR>
>the Fifth Frontier War) the Senior Archduke in the Sector and that therefore<BR>
>he had the 'pull' to get the Capitol returned to Regina.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose you mean that after the 5FW Norris was the most senior DUKE in the<BR>
sector. That is not true. He may have been (almost certainly was) the most<BR>
popular duke, but with nobility 'senior' means 'established earlier' and<BR>
that does not change. If you mean that he became sector duke after the 5FW,<BR>
then I disagree there too. Only the Emperor could promote him to sector<BR>
duke, and he didn't. Instead he went one better and made him archduke. But<BR>
Delphine remained sector duke.<BR>
<BR>
>Given the mass of contradictory information the simplest explanation I see<BR>
>is that the Sector Capitol was moved. <BR>
<BR>
And since I can find no evidence to suggest that Norris was ever sector duke,<BR>
I think that the simplest explanation is that the references to Regina being<BR>
sector capital are mistaken and/or refers to being subsector capital instead.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:32:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> And Leonard, I think you should know better, but energy is always <BR>
> a scalar. There's no "downward vector" for PE. The gravatitional<BR>
> field applies a directional force (a vector) but PE just measures <BR>
> how far you are long the vector from the center of the mass generating<BR>
> the gravity.<BR>
<BR>
I know, I know. It's just a mistake that I keep making. I guess I'm<BR>
wired to make that goof... :-(<BR>
<BR>
> One interesting idea is that since it's conservation of _momentum_<BR>
> and not _velocity_, you could get get physics-obeying teleporters<BR>
> who, when they lose PE by teleporting own, get more massive. Hm, though<BR>
> on second thought, that would probably not work either.<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, however you split it, I think teleporters have to gain or lose<BR>
> heat - there's no other freely available energy sink/source.<BR>
<BR>
Which means that even if they want to kill themselves in the process<BR>
there's an ultimate limit to how high they can move in a gravity well<BR>
based on their body temp.<BR>
<BR>
Though the method I've always favored is using an exchange mass. Grab<BR>
the same mass of *something* from the destination and swap it with your<BR>
body.<BR>
<BR>
And possibly advanced teleporters can balance things by grabbing a mass<BR>
at a third location and porting it to their original location (or maybe<BR>
even a *fourth* one?) to "balance the books".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:11:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:06 PM 5/29/00 +1000, Other Rob wrote:<BR>
>> My feet adapted and became very tough...on one occasion I pulled a<BR>
>> piece of glass out of my foot, cutting my fingers in the process but<BR>
>> not my foot...<BR>
<BR>
> Now how did the glass come OUT of the foot without cutting it? :)<BR>
<BR>
Easy. It never pentrated the calluses.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:21:47 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Maltese Falcon (with an Ob Trav)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Because you might be able to use it.  Someday.  In some manner.  Take for<BR>
> example San Francisco.  Through a trick of climate, we have a very cool<BR>
> climate with lots of fog.  When it rains, it comes in waves.  Absolutely<BR>
> useless information, by try to imagine "The Maltese Falcon" shot in a set<BR>
> of generic streets and apartments.<BR>
<BR>
Um, is there more than 5 minutes of that film that is<BR>
_not_ an interior shot?  I would check, just to have<BR>
an excuse to watch it again, but its on loan to a friend.<BR>
<BR>
Or perhaps you were referring to the 1931 version?<BR>
<BR>
But I take your point, nonetheless.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
Ob.Trav, I wonder if other people might like something<BR>
like "101 Macguffins"?  Traveller parallels to the Maltese<BR>
Falcon, the Hope Diamond, the Star of India, the glowing<BR>
suitcase in Pulp Fiction (which is pretty much the same as<BR>
the glowing suitcase in Kiss Me, Deady (1955 Mike Hammer<BR>
movie), the car in Repo Man (Annic Nova + Repo Man =<BR>
Repo Spaceman), etc.  What do you think, Dom?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:28:26 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Vargr sweat<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Loren, do Vargr inherit their sweat glands on nose, feet and hands<BR>
> from their canine ansestors, or have they more general radiators<BR>
> like we primates?  Is every handshake with a Vargr like "grabbing a<BR>
> wet fish?"<BR>
<BR>
I checked V&V cursorily and found nothing.<BR>
GT:AR1 p.75 says they cannot sweat because their bodies<BR>
are covered with fur, so they pant.  I'm no expert, but I don't<BR>
think its the fur alone, but the sweat glands and lack thereof.<BR>
<BR>
Lair is cool, so the Ancients might have left the sweat glands<BR>
alone.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:37:22 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Capital Capitol<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> [Are you sure it says capitol? The Capitol (according to my dictionary<BR>
> there's only one) is the building where the US Congress sits.]<BR>
<BR>
Dictionaries can never be up-to-minute.  Some early American<BR>
spelled "capital" with an "o", in the days before rigid spelling<BR>
rules were the norm, and now its a big deal?  Never!  :-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:33:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Maltese Falcon (with an Ob Trav)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/30/00 at 01:21 AM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Ob.Trav, I wonder if other people might like something<BR>
>like "101 Macguffins"?  Traveller parallels to the Maltese<BR>
>Falcon, the Hope Diamond, the Star of India, the glowing<BR>
>suitcase in Pulp Fiction (which is pretty much the same as<BR>
>the glowing suitcase in Kiss Me, Deady (1955 Mike Hammer<BR>
>movie), the car in Repo Man (Annic Nova + Repo Man =<BR>
>Repo Spaceman), etc.  What do you think, Dom?<BR>
<BR>
Hey, that's a good idea!<BR>
<BR>
101 Macguffins!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:37:33 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr sweat<BR>
<BR>
On 05/30/00 at 01:28 AM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Loren, do Vargr inherit their sweat glands on nose, feet and hands<BR>
>> from their canine ansestors, or have they more general radiators<BR>
>> like we primates?  Is every handshake with a Vargr like "grabbing a<BR>
>> wet fish?"<BR>
<BR>
>I checked V&V cursorily and found nothing.<BR>
<BR>
I skimmed though and didn't see anything either.<BR>
<BR>
>GT:AR1 p.75 says they cannot sweat because their bodies<BR>
>are covered with fur, so they pant.  I'm no expert, but I don't think its<BR>
>the fur alone, but the sweat glands and lack thereof.<BR>
<BR>
Nah, it's not the fur, it's the lack of glands. <BR>
<BR>
>Lair is cool, so the Ancients might have left the sweat glands alone.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly, but then again...maybe not. Who knows!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:01:26 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora and Regina<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino writes:<BR>
<BR>
>"Let me get this strait Erni, the IISS message says that we have to do a<BR>
>census to report our population?"<BR>
>"That's right sir."<BR>
>"And then we pay taxes to the Imperium based on those numbers?"<BR>
>"Yes sir."<BR>
>"And the last IISS survey ship to pass this way was 180 years ago?"<BR>
<BR>
Right here is where your amusing, but unrealistic, example breaks down. If<BR>
an Imperial planet has billions of inhabitants, then it WILL have frequent<BR>
contact with Imperial institutions. Indeed, if it is big enough to have an<BR>
Imperial noble assigned, it will have frequent contact. There's no way a<BR>
planet could get away with fudging its population figure by a factor 1000<BR>
- --  or a factor 2 for that matter.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the<BR>
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".<BR>
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:59:35 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
I must agree with Matt here.  I like a lot of details and when I was in<BR>
high school I had the time to generate things with paper and pencil.<BR>
Now that I work and have a family I need tools (ie. software) that helps<BR>
me gt things done quickly.<BR>
<BR>
To that end I write a lot software to help me game (unfortunately this<BR>
takes time also). ;)<BR>
<BR>
With the cost of CD's - most of the traveller stuff could be put on CD<BR>
and hard copy along with a section / folder for prorgrams - freeware,<BR>
shareware and commercial.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt Wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Rather than simply use simpler systems, though, I have my<BR>
own proposal: Future editions of Traveller should come with<BR>
sophisticated worldgen and equipment-building software. This info<BR>
could be left out of the main book completely and released in<BR>
supplements for die-hard fanatics (like me, as far as world creation<BR>
is concerned).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:02:20 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Theologically sound orthodoxy<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>As I said before, complexity is not the same as realism<BR>
>or detail.  Complexity is related to micromanagement,<BR>
>which is not what typical gaming sessions are all about.<BR>
<BR>
  I suspect that I can speak for most of the SCTA in claiming that we<BR>
feel vindicated, i.e., that we've been right all along.<BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
                        <BR>
                                                                          :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 02:07:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of Traveller Artists...anybody know where Commander Blair Reynolds<BR>
is these days?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 6:03 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> << I was looking through some of my old Traveller stuff and was wondering<BR>
if<BR>
>  anyone knows if David R. Deitrick is still drawing stuff for publication<BR>
or<BR>
>  if he has a gallery online anywhere?  He did the cover for the Traveller<BR>
>  Starter Edition circa 1983, and some of the stuff for inside it also.<BR>
Loren<BR>
>  would probably be the best bet to know this one.>><BR>
><BR>
> David WHo? Never heard of him   :  )<BR>
><BR>
> Unless he's the same guy we're using for the cover of GT: Ground Forces .<BR>
. .<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:16:19 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
<BR>
"shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
<BR>
Visual Basic is alot like qbasic once you get past having to use forms<BR>
instead of the screen.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
Please I do not what to get into a specific discussion on the details of<BR>
the languages.  My point is that they are very similiar in approach.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>To those who are annoyed by DOS programs I can only apologize, for I<BR>
do =<BR>
not know any newer program languages than Qbasic.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:31:12 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics questions<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
>.> From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
<BR>
>> 2.) Can a ship with AG reduce its internal gravity to less than the<BR>
>>     external gravity field it resides in? (Who needs a CG forlift in<BR>
>>     a zero-G cargo hold?)<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>Yes. This is what grav compensators can do.<BR>
><BR>
>You still want the fork, btw, because zero gee is an unforgiving environment<BR>
>to work in.<BR>
<BR>
The thirty ton cargo container that's heading towards you in zero G keeps on<BR>
coming in precisely the way that one on Earth doesn't.<BR>
<BR>
And pushing a thirty ton container by hand is not a quick way to move it<BR>
anywhere<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2526<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd05.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 04:33:33 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 04:33:04 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id EAA37212;<BR>
	Tue, 30 May 2000 04:32:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 30 May 2000 04:32:10 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id EAA37185<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 04:32:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 04:32:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005300832.EAA37185@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2526<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2527</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/30/00 9:38:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2527<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
RE: military customs and traditions<BR>
Re: Starship Construction<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: We Don't Need No Steenking Xboats!<BR>
Re: We Don`t Need No Steenking Xboats<BR>
Request to Famile Spofulam (was: High Speed Lawnmowers)<BR>
The Fiji situation...the 3I reaction<BR>
Aneth/Jayna/Old Expanses<BR>
Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
Re: Sweaty Vargr (eeeewwww!)<BR>
Re: Barefootin'<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2526<BR>
Vargr do not sweat<BR>
Re: The Fiji situation...the 3I reaction<BR>
Re: Vargr sweat<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
BFBs<BR>
Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 04:40:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
On 28 May 2000 20:05:04 -0500, polaris@physics.utexas.edu (Ian Chapman) wrote;<BR>
> Guys,<BR>
<BR>
> 	I know you are probably tired of hearing about my quibbles with<BR>
> Traveller, but as I was thinking about your responses, I just thought<BR>
> of yet another (potentially) serious realilty flaw.<BR>
<BR>
> 	From our prior discussions, it seems pretty clear that you<BR>
> *can* jump from a system to empty space and from empty space to<BR>
> another system provided you have sufficient fuel.  Given that,<BR>
> why did it take 43 years for the TERRANS to reach Barnard's star<BR>
> after they discovered Jump drive?<BR>
<BR>
<snipping a lot of interesting stuff><BR>
<BR>
Actually, the range of a ship jumping with disposable drop tanks can<BR>
be easily calculated. <donning my gearhead cap> Given the minimum<BR>
size of the payload module must be over J+1 percent of the original<BR>
volume of the ship, and the working volume of the ship is reduced by<BR>
J*10 percent after each jump, the absolute maximum number of staged<BR>
jumps = log((J + 1)/100) / log(1 - J/10) rounded down to the nearest<BR>
whole number. In the table below I define payload as anything that<BR>
isn't jump fuel and jump engines. To determine the original and<BR>
final ship volumes for a given "payload," divide the payload volume<BR>
by the appropriate number from the percentages columns and multiply<BR>
the quotient by 100. (Note that these are *mathematical* limits; in<BR>
practice the number of stages is often lower.)<BR>
<BR>
                                    Payload Percentages<BR>
        Maximum   # of    Total     Original    Payload<BR>
        Jump #    Jumps   Range     Ship Vol    Module<BR>
           1       37     37 pc     0.027556    1.22317<BR>
           2       15     30 pc     0.518437    11.7879<BR>
           3        9     27 pc     0.035361    0.61339<BR>
           4        5     20 pc     2.776       21.4198<BR>
           5        4     20 pc     0.25        2.0<BR>
           6        2     12 pc     9.0         22.5<BR>
<BR>
Given that Barnard's Star is 2(?) parsecs from Terra and has a gas<BR>
giant detectable from here, a mission there and back again would<BR>
require two external tanks (10 and 9 percent of the original volume)<BR>
with the second tank being refilled in the Barnard system for the<BR>
jump home. However, for a two jump journey like this, 20 percent<BR>
internal tankage is much simpler and less expensive.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  Tweety-Bird must take the blue devil from the   |<BR>
              |           best place possible. FNORD!            |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 05:19:04 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: military customs and traditions<BR>
<BR>
>I went to our local memorial day parade this morning<BR>
>and it was led by a riderless horse, with a pair of boots<BR>
>reversed in the stirrups<BR>
>and I was curious about the origin of this<BR>
<BR>
In case you're on "Jeopardy" a riderless horse with reversed boots in the<BR>
stirrups is referred to as a "caparisoned horse". For some reason, I've got<BR>
it stuck in my head that this particular variation started in 17th century<BR>
Europe, but don't quote me on that. In an older version of this tradition<BR>
the stirrups were folded up over the saddle and held in place by a sword.<BR>
Different versions of this tradition exist all around the world. I have no<BR>
idea what the precise origin of the reversed boots is, but it is said to<BR>
symbolize that the rider will never ride again. This tradition really caught<BR>
on in America during the Civil War, if I remember correctly.<BR>
<BR>
A caparisoned horse may be used, according to current American military<BR>
tradition, in the funeral procession of an Army or Marine who held a rank of<BR>
colonel or above, and it is part of a funeral with full honors at Arlington<BR>
National Cemetery. Since Abraham Lincoln most (if not all) presidents have<BR>
been honored in such a fashion.<BR>
<BR>
That's all I can think of at the moment. Sorry I couldn't be of more use.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: This tradition, and traditions in this vein, may provide interesting<BR>
flavor for your Traveller universe. For example, upon posting this response<BR>
I imagined that members of the IISS might be honored with a caparisoned poni<BR>
in their funeral procession. Although this particular practice in America is<BR>
part of the military tradition, the simple "riderless horse" is universal,<BR>
especially in areas where the horse is part of daily life. It's logical that<BR>
such a practice might incorporate other riding animals.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 04:50:45 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:28:07 -0700<BR>
> From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Starship Construction (give up the fractions!)<BR>
...<BR>
> Let me respond to Mr. Thrash's points with an illustration from <BR>
> the QSDS Small Table of Hulls.  QSDS is a single, well-defined<BR>
> instance of Traveller, tailored for Milieu Zero.  Note how<BR>
> it oozes complexity, yet it's not fundamentally more flexible<BR>
> than Book 2.  And the added options don't cause the complexity:<BR>
> rather, the whole layout is unjustifiably complex.<BR>
> <BR>
>    Wedge,  Streamlined  (100 tons): Volume=94.1<BR>
>    Needle, Streamlined  (100 tons): Volume=92.8<BR>
>    Needle, Streamlined (1000 tons): Volume=947.8<BR>
<BR>
Leaving aside the purple prose, I have a couple of responses. First note,<BR>
however, that of all the versions I pretty much ignored T4, and so will<BR>
not comment on the aesthetics of the QSDS, etc.<BR>
<BR>
(1) Are you familiar with the concepts of rounding and significant<BR>
figures? If this example has too much detail for you, why not use them:<BR>
<BR>
Wedge, SL   (100 tons): Volume=94<BR>
Needle, SL  (100 tons): Volume=93<BR>
Needle, SL (1000 tons): Volume=950<BR>
<BR>
Or even:<BR>
<BR>
Hull, SL    (100 tons): Volume=90<BR>
Hull, SL   (1000 tons): Volume=900<BR>
<BR>
(2) The level of detail and complexity is not unjustified. Wedges and<BR>
needles are different and have different games effects. The profit margin<BR>
on most ships in Traveller (whatever version) is less than 5% *by design*<BR>
(ref. Marc Miller); a +/- 1% difference in cargo capacity can be<BR>
significant, if your campaign revolves around such things.<BR>
<BR>
(3) Consistency is its own reward. One reason for the extra significant<BR>
figures on the table is to permit you, the designer, to get a consistent<BR>
answer regardless of whether you use the table or the formula from which<BR>
it derived. If you don't need that much precision, don't use it.<BR>
<BR>
[This is an area in which GT falls down somewhat. The simplifications used<BR>
in the standard hull table, for example, although derived from VE2 are not<BR>
consistent with the values that result from the formula directly.]<BR>
<BR>
(4) Realism means different things to different people. <BR>
<BR>
I have some background in physics and aerospace engineering (enough to do<BR>
the math, anyway). At the risk of going OT, I used to play a game called<BR>
Battletech: simple, playable, fun. Then one day I had to ask myself about<BR>
_ground pressure_. When I did the math, I found that those lovely big<BR>
robots were *physically impossible* -- no amount of advanced technology<BR>
(short of contragravity) can change the pressure a given type of soil can<BR>
withstand.<BR>
<BR>
I had to give up the game, because it wasn't any fun for me any more. My<BR>
"willing suspension of disbelief" does not extend to cartoon physics. I<BR>
don't mind simplifications, *so long as they are consistent and<BR>
realistic*. <BR>
<BR>
Book 2 and High Guard both suffer from the problem that volume and mass<BR>
are *not* the same; ships with radically different amounts of armor or<BR>
liquid hydrogen do not have the same density. As a playble abstraction, I<BR>
can barely accept it, but for my enjoyment I want to know the mass and<BR>
howe it affects maneuver. Your experience and preferences may make the<BR>
difference completely moot for you -- that's fine, but don't condemn the<BR>
comprehensive design system for supporting both of us.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:58:31 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Having raised the question I will but in my 2 pence.<BR>
<BR>
I have to come down on the side of Mora being the sector capital. Not<BR>
only is it the most important world in the Marches, it was the first<BR>
settled, and has the Sector Duke (Duchess) resident on the planet<BR>
(Delphine). That alone dose it for me but YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
The SMC references Mora as Sector capital, the first reference (1110)<BR>
<BR>
The Map of the Spinward Marches is on the cover of either the players or<BR>
the referees manual in MT (I don't know which and I don't have the books<BR>
with me). The Stats in the Imperial Encyclopaedia are for this map,<BR>
which would put the date at 1116, YMMV. Therefore the second reference.<BR>
<BR>
If Regina was the sector capital then Norris would be Sector Duke, which<BR>
was never the case, he went from subsector Duke to Archduke. I think<BR>
this is were all the contradictory evidence comes in.<BR>
<BR>
Having become Archduke the references to Regina becoming capital start<BR>
to appear. Since Regina is Norris's, when he become Archduke it then<BR>
become his capital, the domain capital (Deneb). This has references all<BR>
over the place.<BR>
<BR>
	Challenge 32 Page 17 Regina is the Archduke's Capital<BR>
<BR>
	Regina identified as faction capitol. <BR>
	[Reb SB inside front cover] (circa 1120)<BR>
<BR>
to name a couple. Norris then moves his capital to Mora to be in the<BR>
centre of the domain, to join with the sector capital of the Marches.<BR>
Which is referenced in the Mega Traveller Journals (thanks Hans). Mora<BR>
is then referenced as Domain Capital.<BR>
<BR>
There is however contradictory evidence across the Mega Traveller era as<BR>
to the sector capital. The Classic Traveller comes down in favour or<BR>
Mora however.<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:31:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: We Don't Need No Steenking Xboats!<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Nature magazine posted the following today.<BR>
> The full story is at:<BR>
> http://helix.nature.com/nsu/000601/000601-5.html<BR>
><BR>
> --- quote ---<BR>
> Science-fiction authors wanting to get their<BR>
> characters rapidly around a Universe too big<BR>
> to cross in a million lifetimes often invoke<BR>
> the 'tachyon', a particle that travels faster<BR>
> than light. But physics textbooks give no <BR>
> credence to the tachyon. That the speed of<BR>
> light represents the cosmic speed limit is, <BR>
> after all, the central tenet of Albert <BR>
> Einstein's theory of special relativity.<BR>
><BR>
> Yet physicists have known for some years now<BR>
> that light pulses can be persuaded to break<BR>
> this limit -- but only fleetingly and over<BR>
> short distances. Now a team of Italian <BR>
> physicists report that they can send a <BR>
> faster-than-light pulse of microwaves over<BR>
> more than a metre. These experiments re-open <BR>
> the question of sending information faster than<BR>
> light...<BR>
> --- end quote ---<BR>
<BR>
It's actually fairly *easy* to get something that moves FTL. You just<BR>
can't use it to transfer information.<BR>
<BR>
The simplest example is taking a laser pointer (a really powerful one<BR>
:-) and swinging the beam thru an arc. Get far enough away and the beam<BR>
is moving sideways faster than light. If you had a long, curving wall<BR>
there, the illuminated spot would move FTL. <BR>
<BR>
There are a number of other "FTL" phenomena. But none will allow<BR>
*communication* at FTL rates.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:28:56 +0200<BR>
From: Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling <kgorling@physik.tu-berlin.de><BR>
Subject: Re: We Don`t Need No Steenking Xboats<BR>
<BR>
/snip <light which is faster than light><BR>
<BR>
Behind this is the dispersion of light, which will result, that<BR>
the groupwave (germ. Gruppenwelle) is faster than the lightwave<BR>
itself. This applies to all packeges of ligthwaves.<BR>
But the timedifference could only be measured, if the package<BR>
already reached the destination, so the information speed is<BR>
still limited to the speed of light.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mge der Tux mit euch sein (May the Tux be with you)<BR>
Diese Mail wird abgehrt!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:11:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Request to Famile Spofulam (was: High Speed Lawnmowers)<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> > In mail you write:<BR>
> > > "LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in<BR>
> > > accelerating lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.<BR>
> > > A working Tractor beam is expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Jordin has what can only be described as a "strange" sense of<BR>
> > humor. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> and its only ~200 mph :-)<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps Famile Spofulam can 'improve' on this.  Whaddyathink?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:52:52 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: The Fiji situation...the 3I reaction<BR>
<BR>
Something for the list to debate...<BR>
   If Fiji was a planet in the 3I what would happen to it? It's been<BR>
more than a week now have the marines landed?<BR>
<BR>
    Or what if it was a planet in the RC area of Ops? If the deposed<BR>
gov't was friendly? Unfriendly?<BR>
<BR>
    Somewhere in the Regency with Aslan vs Humans? Vargr vs Humans?<BR>
Vargr vs Aslan (would they fight like Cats and Dogs?)<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 02:49:26 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Aneth/Jayna/Old Expanses<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
Here is the third in the Word of God worlds.  I was looking through the 1200 Old<BR>
Expanses in Galactic and I noticed that there were two Mystic Autocracies and a<BR>
Mystic Dictatorship next to each other and figured there had to be a<BR>
connection.  The Word of God had been in the back of my mind for a while, so I<BR>
brought everything together.  <BR>
<BR>
- --------<BR>
<BR>
Aneth/Jayna/Old Expanses<BR>
<BR>
X456774-3<BR>
<BR>
Aneth was the second target of Montero's crusades. In 1162 a battle tender and<BR>
its associated riders jumped into the system.  At the time Aneth was balkanized<BR>
and divided into a dozen different principalities and provinces.  These nations<BR>
grow out of the chaos of the Collapse.  Before the Collapse, Aneth had no<BR>
government and the people were unified in their desire for no government<BR>
interference.<BR>
 <BR>
There was perpetual low-intensity war between these nations.  Monteron diplomats<BR>
contacted several of the leaders.  A few of the leaders wanted nothing to do<BR>
with the outworlders, and refused to have any further contact with Montero.  Two<BR>
others allowed Montero to establish an embassy and send out missionaries in<BR>
exchange for technical assistance.  The Duchy of Dwight was intrigued by Montero<BR>
and its Word of God, and established an embassy and installed a priest at the<BR>
Duchess's court as a spiritual advisor.<BR>
 <BR>
Several years went by, and while relations were good, none of the nations seemed<BR>
to embrace the Word of God.  There was a great deal of debate whether Montero<BR>
should keep up the slow persuasion or do something more drastic, such as an<BR>
invasion.  No decision was made and the situation continued until 1171, when a<BR>
missionary priest sent word that she had converted the People of the Wind.  The<BR>
People of the Wind were a nomadic culture where life centered around their<BR>
horses.  They lived on the western steppes of the major continent.  They had<BR>
been a distinct ethnic group before the Rebellion and had always shunned<BR>
high-technology as being impure.  For the most part the rest of Aneth ignored<BR>
them and regarded them as quaint anachronistic boobs.  It was quite ironic that<BR>
now the rest of Aneth was actually less advanced than the People of the Wind.<BR>
 <BR>
Once they had been converted the People of the  Wind realized that it was their<BR>
destiny to unite Aneth under the Word of God.  The nomads swept down upon the<BR>
nearest cities and quickly conquered them.  At first they made large territorial<BR>
gains from the surprised  provinces, but the opposition soon became better<BR>
organized and losses started to mount up.<BR>
 <BR>
The Monterons decided to supply the People of the Wind with TL-9 weapons and<BR>
advisors.  Montero sent small arms and squad support weapons.  They also sent in<BR>
specialized troops such as artillery and airborne assets.  With this backing the<BR>
People of the Wind were able to conquer the entire planet within 7 years.  They<BR>
instituted strict religious law and destroyed all religious organization other<BR>
than the Word of God.  Schools were put under control of the Word.  While<BR>
officially there are strict laws on the books, it is impossible to administer<BR>
these laws at TL-3 and the actual enforced law level is fairly moderate.<BR>
 <BR>
More and more of Montero's resources were being used to deal with the Kestra<BR>
Heresy, and it was not able to provide additional technical assistance to<BR>
Aneth.  This is fine with the  People of the Wind, as they  are content with<BR>
their current technological level.  Montero sends ships to Aneth several times a<BR>
year to continue the relationship and to make sure no heresies have developed<BR>
here. Scholars and priests are exchanged.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:00:35 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
For open debate...<BR>
   Is the invention/development of Contra/Anti-grav the branch point<BR>
between 'Mecha' universes and 'Gravank' universes?<BR>
<BR>
    The reason I ask is, my Trinity campaign world was initally built in<BR>
Mekton Z... with Mecha a large part of life...powersuits needed on the<BR>
surface for survival...roadstriker scale for PC combat and the 30 ft<BR>
giants being the 'big stick' for the game...<BR>
<BR>
    Would a G:T/G:Mecha crossover work?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:03:24 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: GenCon (Re: Emperor Strephon's Golden Jubilee)<BR>
<BR>
i'll be there.  of course i live there...<BR>
<BR>
so i guess i'll just stay here<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- > <BR>
<BR>
> >Speaking of CONs, is anyone planning to go to GENCON this year?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:05:50 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Sweaty Vargr (eeeewwww!)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-30 04:33:34 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Loren, do Vargr inherit their sweat glands on nose, feet and hands<BR>
 from their canine ancestors, or have they more general radiators<BR>
 like we primates?  Is every handshake with a Vargr like "grabbing a<BR>
 wet fish?"<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Never thought about it. No reason they couldn't have been re-engineered with <BR>
more general sweat glands (or some other system). Presumably Grandfather <BR>
arranged for them not to drop of heatstroke too often . . . <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:04:55 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Barefootin'<BR>
<BR>
Moin GDWGAMES@aol.com,<BR>
<BR>
> << We dont need shoes if we walk in nature, we need them because of our <BR>
> civilisation. >><BR>
> <BR>
> Any hookworm where you live?<BR>
<BR>
  no - but this does'nt matter. I expect Vargr living at TL zero to<BR>
  wear no shoes, while civilisation would create the need to wear shoes.<BR>
<BR>
  I story about King (dog) and Germy (human) was that they took the road<BR>
  on a bicycle on a hot summer day from Hemelingen to Steintor (about 5<BR>
  miles - 8 km). Unlike my dog, who wont run for that long if its hot,<BR>
  King did'nt show any weariness. But we saw some hour later, that his<BR>
  feet had been badly injured by running over hot tar and concrete.<BR>
<BR>
  A dog would easy be able to run the same distance in nature, imho.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:11:13 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2526<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-30 04:33:34 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Speaking of Traveller Artists...anybody know where Commander Blair Reynolds<BR>
 is these days? >><BR>
<BR>
Haven't heard from him in a long time. Rumor says he's no longer working for <BR>
game companies, since the "real world" can pay so much more . . . but I try <BR>
not to believe rumors (the truth content of most rumors is close enough to <BR>
zero as makes no difference).<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:32:04 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Vargr do not sweat<BR>
<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> > Loren, do Vargr inherit their sweat glands on nose, feet and hands<BR>
> > from their canine ansestors, or have they more general radiators<BR>
> > like we primates?  Is every handshake with a Vargr like "grabbing a<BR>
> > wet fish?"<BR>
<BR>
Bloo wrote: <BR>
> I checked V&V cursorily and found nothing.<BR>
> GT:AR1 p.75 says they cannot sweat because their bodies<BR>
> are covered with fur, so they pant.  I'm no expert, but I don't<BR>
> think its the fur alone, but the sweat glands and lack thereof.<BR>
 <BR>
> Lair is cool, so the Ancients might have left the sweat glands<BR>
> alone.<BR>
<BR>
DGP's V&V, Page 77 (Roleplaying Example):<BR>
<BR>
"After his quick sprint across the compound, Dzofin pants to cool <BR>
off. Vargr, like all terran canines, don't sweat. This can sometimes <BR>
interfere with speech, but evidently the trait didn't bother the <BR>
Ancients enough to correct it."<BR>
<BR>
So, if V&V is canon, Vargr don't sweat. IMTU they don't. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:59:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: The Fiji situation...the 3I reaction<BR>
<BR>
On 30 May 00, at 22:52, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Something for the list to debate...<BR>
>    If Fiji was a planet in the 3I what would happen to it? It's been<BR>
> more than a week now have the marines landed?<BR>
<BR>
Okay, now Planet Fiji probably has a population in the 10s of millions, its <BR>
tech level is on the low side (8-11 at a guess), but its military is well <BR>
competent and respected within its limitations. The world is not all that <BR>
significant, but its not totally ignorable. I'd say it warrants attention from the <BR>
Subsector Duke.<BR>
<BR>
So there will be three questions. First is going to be "Is any possible new <BR>
government potentially disloyal to the Imperium? The second question is <BR>
"Is there evidence of gross and obvious outside meddling?". The third and <BR>
most important question is "Can this disrupt the flow of trade through the <BR>
Subsector (is Fiji an important support stop on a trade route)?<BR>
<BR>
if there is a potential for disloyalty, you'll get a show of strength to remind <BR>
all the players in the local situation that rejecting the Imperium is not an <BR>
option, but other than that it will be wait and see. If a government that <BR>
rejects the Imperium does gain power, then you will get some form of <BR>
intervention (the level of which depends on how far the new government <BR>
goes).<BR>
<BR>
If there is gross and obvious outside meddling (eg clumsy megacorp), then <BR>
the question will be "who". If "who" is somebody with reasonable power <BR>
then they would probably be told discretely to back off. However, if the <BR>
"who" doesn't have reasonable power, then maybe you'll get an Imperial <BR>
intervention to enforce the Rules of War. However if the outside meddling <BR>
has been discrete, nothing will be done.<BR>
<BR>
If the situation threatens a trade route, then all parties will be told to sort it <BR>
out quickly or else. And if they don't then the Marines won't be far away.<BR>
<BR>
Bottom line is that the Imperium is quite happy with despots and tyrants, <BR>
just so long as they remain loyal to the Imperium and don't disrupt trade.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:22:10 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr sweat<BR>
<BR>
I don't have my V&V handy (it's packed away because I've just moved) but I<BR>
seem to recall a reference to epithets used by the Vargr. They call humans<BR>
"stinkers" among  other things, which I take to be a reference to human<BR>
sweat (and sweat-fueled odor). That would only be a particularly pertinent<BR>
epithet if Vargr themselves don't sweat. An oblique reference.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn<BR>
bdunn@epicsystems.com<BR>
<BR>
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just<BR>
like to pee a lot."   --Capital Brewery, Middleton, WI<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:37:33 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr sweat<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>>I checked V&V cursorily and found nothing.<BR>
><BR>
>I skimmed though and didn't see anything either.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:59:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> > Anybody familiar with Bell's inequality experiments? (A summary: if you<BR>
> > split a photon into two or more less energetic photons, due to the<BR>
> > angular momentum laws photons travelling in opposite directions will<BR>
> > have opposite spin. Bell's inequality postulates that if you reverse the<BR>
> > spin of one photon, the other photon will reverse its spin as<BR>
> > well--instantaneously, no matter how far away it is.<BR>
<BR>
> It's not possible to build an FTL communicator with this. Why? Because<BR>
> measuring the spin of *one* of the phtons doesn't tell you anything<BR>
> useful.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the original summary doesn't mention measuring spin, it mentions changing spin (and is, as far as I can tell, an incorrect summary).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:03:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > In any case, the  behavior of nuclear dampers as written violates<BR>
> > conservation of energy (a nuclear damper strengthens or weakens<BR>
> > nuclear forces, which will reduce or increase the rest mass of nuclei<BR>
> > within the area.<BR>
> <BR>
> So? The mass loss can be handled by emission of photons. The mass gain<BR>
> may come from the field itself, or at the cost of some energy component<BR>
> of the atom.<BR>
<BR>
The quantity of mass loss is significant...if the lost mass is emitted as photons, and you focus a nuclear damper on someone's ship, that ship will blow up.  Is that really the intended effect?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:06:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton writes:<BR>
> For open debate...<BR>
>    Is the invention/development of Contra/Anti-grav the branch point<BR>
> between 'Mecha' universes and 'Gravank' universes?<BR>
<BR>
No, it's the breakpoint between 'tank' universes and 'gravtank' universes.  The breakpoint between 'mecha' universes and others involves suspension of disbelief.<BR>
> <BR>
>     The reason I ask is, my Trinity campaign world was initally built in<BR>
> Mekton Z... with Mecha a large part of life...powersuits needed on the<BR>
> surface for survival...roadstriker scale for PC combat and the 30 ft<BR>
> giants being the 'big stick' for the game...<BR>
> <BR>
>     Would a G:T/G:Mecha crossover work?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure why you'd need GT for that.  G:Mecha should work fine by itself.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: near-C rocks handwave<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps I am actually limited in my physics, but... As far as I can see<BR>
> it, a contragravity device produces acceleration, doesn't it? So<BR>
> "velocity" alone can't be of relevance, or ...? Or do you mean<BR>
> "acceleration and "meters per second per sencond"? Or am I completely<BR>
> wrong here? <BR>
<BR>
A contragravity device produces 'force', which when applied to an object, produces acceleration.  <BR>
A definition of Work is Force * Distance, where both Force and Distance are vector qualities.  The practical effect is that you measure distance along the axis of the force, so if the object moves in the direction of the force you've applied, you've done work; if the object moves in the opposite direction you've done negative work.<BR>
Power is Work/Time.  This also solves as Force * Velocity (velocity is also a vector quantity).<BR>
> ?<BR>
> <BR>
> And I don't understand how higher velocities can produce energy, or<BR>
> negative velocities destroy energy. I am noteven close to udnerstanding<BR>
> the above paragraph enough to crtisize anything. I just don't<BR>
> understand.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks,<BR>
> Ingo<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:23:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Jeffrey D. Greenly" <jgreenly@intelos.net><BR>
Subject: BFBs<BR>
<BR>
Anybody have any word yet on when the BFB: Supplements book is shipping?<BR>
<BR>
Jeff<BR>
<BR>
PS Thanks everybody, esp. Rob for the info on psionics. I am working on a<BR>
set of encounters/scenarios for CT, and will post them as soon as they are<BR>
finished.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:38:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Complexity is not necessarily the same as detail.  Detail<BR>
> is a measure of finely organized features that add to the<BR>
> aesthetic appreciation of the subject.<BR>
<BR>
Of course not.  Complexity applies to the method, detail applies to the result.<BR>
> <BR>
> Complexity is not necessarily the same as "realism".<BR>
<BR>
Which is not to say that 'realism' is always desireable.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Theorem GOODPLAY-1:<BR>
>    Complexity is not a factor of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
Complexity is generally a factor of slow game play.  Like anything else, it's good if and only if the players enjoy it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Corollary:<BR>
>    Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
Oh really?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> EXAMPLES<BR>
> <BR>
> (1) World Generation<BR>
> <BR>
>     I am glad most Traveller material lacks world complexity<BR>
>     which adds next to nothing to most Traveller games.  The <BR>
>     Traveller basic world generation rules and system generation <BR>
>     rules are a good balance of detail, appropriate for a referee <BR>
>     to take and run with.  Each number is meaningful (I think)<BR>
>     and useful, and there's no major information left out.  Well,<BR>
>     except the X-Boat route markers...<BR>
In my experience there is unusably little information.  Which is not to say that a more complex world-building system would solve the problem, that won't make a map of the starport for me.<BR>
> <BR>
>     On the other hand...<BR>
> <BR>
>     Worlds generated with a complex variety of numbers for<BR>
>     atmosphere, temperature gradients, chemical components,<BR>
>     weather patterns, axial tilt, &tc is useless beyond<BR>
>     a basic awareness of what the referee is going to<BR>
>     throw at you.  If you don't use it, why have it?<BR>
<BR>
Some people use it.  It depends on how the world is going to be used.  What you really need is a system where you can determine that information if you need it, but don't need to initially determine what it is.<BR>
> <BR>
> (2) Starship Construction<BR>
> <BR>
>     Aside from the Book 2 starship construction system, all <BR>
>     All ALL of the Traveller ship construction systems are <BR>
>     needlesly complex, and nearly devoid of the aesthetic value <BR>
>     that defines a good rules system.  This means I'm finally<BR>
>     tired of FFS2, and yes, even QSDS.<BR>
<BR>
It depends on what you're going to do with the system.  For many games, the best 'design system' is 'pick a ship.  Here's a list'.<BR>
> <BR>
>     My dilemma, then, is how to use a Book 2 framework while<BR>
>     retaining the excellent ideas in HG, MT, FFS2, GT.  How to <BR>
>     throw away the spreadsheet.  Yet how to remain true to<BR>
>     the intent of the published systems.<BR>
<BR>
You can't.<BR>
 <BR>
> CONCLUSIONS<BR>
> <BR>
> Starship construction has changed in EVERY version of Traveller<BR>
> because it either (1) wasn't "complete", or (2) was too complex.<BR>
> The current incumbent, FFS2, smothers its robust detail with <BR>
> complexity.  As far as I can tell, starships designed with High<BR>
> Guard are just as "good" as ships designed with FFS2.  Better,<BR>
> perhaps, because the complexity added by FFS2 (area calculations,<BR>
> armor, hull, and structure points for example) and MegaTraveller<BR>
> (armor/penetration) are usually detrimental to game play.<BR>
<BR>
I'm unclear how those are detrimental.  HG combat produced some very odd results occasionally.<BR>
> <BR>
> But those minor quibbles I mentioned above aren't really the<BR>
> problem.  The problem is that FFS2 doesn't look good.  It looks<BR>
> like a workbook for a college physics class.  That's not play.<BR>
> That's homework: excellent for theory, lousy for playing.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the layout of FFS2 is a nightmare.<BR>
> <BR>
> This smacks of an unresolved issue that WON'T BE FIXED BY ANY <BR>
> REVISION OF FFS.  The reason is that FFS approaches the problem<BR>
> from the WRONG DIRECTION by attempting to replace true detail <BR>
> and "realism" with complexity.<BR>
> <BR>
> I suppose what that means to me is that any construction system,<BR>
> whether built on FFS or no, should not LOOK like a simplified <BR>
> version of FFS: it should LOOK and FEEL something like Book 2's <BR>
> construction system.<BR>
<BR>
Well, book 2s construction system was simple because it had almost nothing in it.  If you want to add all the odd little features a ship can have, you're going to wind up with a more complex system.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2527<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (rly-yg03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.3]) by air-yg04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:38:35 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:37:55 2000<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA55767;<BR>
	Tue, 30 May 2000 12:36:56 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 30 May 2000 12:36:42 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA55728<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005301636.MAA55728@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2527<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2528</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/30/00 12:52:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2528<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
BayCon Party Report<BR>
The Galactic Rim!<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
The Penis Bone<BR>
re: Warning......<BR>
RE: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Protomatter?<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
RE: Unusual Battlefield Communications <BR>
RE: BayCon Party Report<BR>
RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
T5 and GT<BR>
RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Re: Sweaty Vargr (eeeewwww!)<BR>
RE: T5 and GT<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:36:35<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
I'm still exhausted, since we had to stick around for the Bitch and Moan<BR>
panel at the end of the con, so this is going to be a bit loose.<BR>
<BR>
1. Great turnout of the local folk, and again thanks to everyone who helped<BR>
out with funding and food.  Jesse and his entourage brought a bag of faux<BR>
weaponry that would have given FLARE (con security) collective heart<BR>
failure had we ventured out into the halls with it.  Jesse also did a<BR>
wonderful Ditzie drawing for the party, which he's going to scan in.  Glenn<BR>
Goffin showed up in his persona as Consul to Ming, ruler of Mongo.<BR>
<BR>
2. The surprise guest was John Groth, who came out from Louisiana on a bus<BR>
for the convention!  It was great meeting him, and he got one of the<BR>
freebie copies of Starports that SJG had sent me as promotional items.  We<BR>
also passed out copies of the latest GT promotional poster.<BR>
<BR>
3. The most oft-repeated line of Saturday night was "I used to play that"<BR>
from people wandering into the room.  Many people were surprised to learn<BR>
that Traveller was still in print, and told me directly that they were<BR>
going to order copies of the books.  Mission accomplished!<BR>
<BR>
4. One of the more popular items was the copy of ACQ I brought along.  At<BR>
least seven people asked to see the penguins.  Speaking of penguins...<BR>
<BR>
5. We were visited by a stuffed Fairy Penguin, allowing me to demonstrate<BR>
the proper technique used when throwing one in combat.  The unfortunate<BR>
John Groth found himself looking down the beak of an enraged attack bird.<BR>
After this, we held the penguin at gunpoint, trying to interrogate it.<BR>
<BR>
6. We had tons of food.. spinach dip, salsa in Diplomat, Marine and Scout<BR>
grades, black and red M&Ms, over 250 cans of soda..  the theme of Sunday<BR>
night's bash was "please eat this, I don't want to carry it home!"<BR>
<BR>
7. Both nights we were pretty full, with all sorts of interesting<BR>
conversations going on, both Traveller and non-Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
8. Thing I can live without ever seeing again: Jesse DeGraff dancing to "YMCA"<BR>
<BR>
9. Best thing that nobody else saw: Me reciting the Beowulf distress call<BR>
after breathing helium.<BR>
<BR>
10. Next year, the third annual (insert blurb here) Traveller Party!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:54:48 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: The Galactic Rim!<BR>
<BR>
Greetings!<BR>
Can anyone suggest where I can find information regarding Solomani<BR>
exploration and expansion to Rimward? <BR>
<BR>
I understand that:<BR>
<BR>
a) Solomani explorers have "reached nearly three thousand parsecs"<BR>
   out towards the galactic rim <BR>
<BR>
b) No additional Major Races have been discovered.<BR>
<BR>
This is according to a web page entitled "Charted Space," which refers<BR>
back to the "MegaTraveller Referee's Manual" (the page's address is<BR>
"http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/C/chartspc.htm").<BR>
<BR>
Is anything else about Solomani activity to Rimward of the Confederation<BR>
known?  The web page I refer to above says that "nowhere beyond Charted<BR>
Space has intelligence produced the jump drive that makes interstellar<BR>
travel possible.  Worlds are full of life; space is empty."  Is this a<BR>
canonical passage drawn directly from the MegaTraveller Referee's Manual?<BR>
I can see several possible interpretations:<BR>
<BR>
a) There are intelligent races to Rimward of the Confederation, but each<BR>
   and every one of them is restricted to the star system in which it<BR>
   evolved.<BR>
<BR>
b) There are intelligent races to Rimward of the Confederation, and none<BR>
   of them built jump-capable starships prior to contact with the <BR>
   Solomani.  A few of these races, however, might have ventured across<BR>
   interstellar space aboard *slower-than-light* starships.  (this<BR>
   interpretation seems the most plausible to me)<BR>
<BR>
c) There are intelligent races to Rimward of the Confederation, and none<BR>
   of them *invented* the jump drive independently.  It is, however,<BR>
   possible that some of these races might have been built jump-capable<BR>
   starships prior to contact with the Solomani by studying technology<BR>
   left behind by the Ancients (didn't at least one Minor branch of<BR>
   Humaniti do this, and then try to pass itself off as a Major Race?)<BR>
<BR>
Any information, regarding "what's out there" would be greatly<BR>
appreciated.<BR>
                                                           - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:22:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>>What's the Imperial equivalent of "Ghurka regiment"?><BR>
>>I vote for His Imperial Majesty's Own Ir'klan Commandos<BR>
>>(from Menorb/Regina). <BR>
><BR>
>If they are Imperial Army, they'd be the <insert local<BR>
>noble>'s Own. Commando is overused. The Ir'klan Red Turban<BR>
<BR>
>Infantry Regiment.<BR>
<BR>
I like IRTIR, but if it's an Imperial unit, it won't<BR>
necessarily be Local Noble's Own.  The Duke of Regina's Own<BR>
Huscarles, for example, are not under direct Imperial<BR>
command.  See, e.g., Spinward Marches Campaign.  On the<BR>
other hand, you are writing Ground Forces.<BR>
<BR>
Great job on the Strephon's Jubilee Party!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:26:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>   Is the invention/development of Contra/Anti-grav the branch point<BR>
>between 'Mecha' universes and 'Gravank' universes?<BR>
<BR>
	No. The real point at which a mecha universe and the Traveller universe<BR>
differ has nothing to do with the technology involved and everything to do<BR>
with the material each universe would draw on for inspiration. The Traveller<BR>
universe draws heavily on certain elements from literary sci-fi in a<BR>
specific tradition. A mecha universe draws heavily on certain elements from<BR>
anime movies and television shows.<BR>
<BR>
	While I don't really think that the two have to be completely incompatible,<BR>
I imagine that you'd have to do a fair deal of work with respect to<BR>
justifying how big, mostly humanoid vehicles developed and why they were<BR>
used over what would appear to be more efficient and useful designs.<BR>
<BR>
	Mecha don't have a lot of really distinct advantages over other types of<BR>
vehicles. They're humanoid in shape, which means that they are<BR>
"multi-purpose" to some extent. They can be used in combat or in<BR>
construction, for example. Depending on how the weapons are fitted, changing<BR>
weapon types could be as easy as dropping one weapon and picking up another.<BR>
Mecha also bring their own high ground with them wherever they go (which is<BR>
also a disadvantage: they have a lot of surface area in the front and rear<BR>
which makes them more vulnerable than, say, a conventional tank).<BR>
<BR>
	Basically, you have to come up with a reason why mecha would be used widely<BR>
enough for them to figure in prominently to a universe.<BR>
<BR>
>    The reason I ask is, my Trinity campaign world was initally built in<BR>
>Mekton Z... with Mecha a large part of life...powersuits needed on the<BR>
>surface for survival...roadstriker scale for PC combat and the 30 ft<BR>
>giants being the 'big stick' for the game...<BR>
><BR>
>    Would a G:T/G:Mecha crossover work?<BR>
<BR>
	I think that it could be made to work, although I don't think that the<BR>
Traveller universe supports such vehicles right out of the box. You'd have<BR>
to work out your own rationale behind their existence and use.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:37:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: The Penis Bone<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions <BR>
<BR>
>Oosik, I think it's called.  Popular with many knife<BR>
>makers for handlematerial.<BR>
<BR>
It has a Latin (or maybe Greek) name, too, which is<BR>
mentioned in the poem.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Warning......<BR>
<BR>
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
><BR>
>Subject: VIRUS for LINUX/UNIX/MAC!Date: Tue, 23 May 2000<BR>
>14:40:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
>Attention Linux/Unix/OS2/MAC Users:<BR>
>This virus operates on the honor system. Please mail this<BR>
>message to every email address on your system and randomly<BR>
<BR>
>delete a number of files from your hard drive.<BR>
<BR>
This is one of the few times I'm glad to be using the<BR>
Windows OS.  Whew! another bullet dodged.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:45:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Just the thing for those man-portable battlefield nukes.  <BR>
> Really big yield <BR>
> > from a very sub-critical mass.<BR>
> <BR>
> But you have to set the time of detonation when you make them. Maybe a<BR>
> nuke damper will delay it, but as they get near "expiration date" I'd<BR>
> get *real* worried about damper failures. <BR>
<BR>
Ah!  That's where the fuse comes from.  The nukes are 'set' to go off in (say) 30 seconds.  Apply damper field - decay stops.  Turn off field, you've got 30 seconds before 'boom'.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, they wouldn't trip a radiation detector unit they went off. Think<BR>
> about it... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and that worries me.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's going to worry my players shortly...<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:48:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Troy Bradley <gladiator1999@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
I am not sure how o ask a question form this list, I<BR>
hope I dont screw it up but here it goes. Can anyone<BR>
tell me what/how protomatter works. I am using it in<BR>
an alternate timeline, mainly as missile warheads. How<BR>
much more explosive would this material be that<BR>
antimatter?  Thanx, Troy<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:05:17 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
	This problem of the Terrans taking a long time to get to Barnard's<BR>
Star (or any other adjacent star) has come up fairly often.  My solution<BR>
is that early Terran J1 drives were highly inefficient such that they had<BR>
to use more fuel or were just a lot larger (thus, no multiple jumps<BR>
allowed). The reason for this might be Terrans' retarded grav technology<BR>
or some other quirk like that (using the wrong element in their coils,<BR>
make up what you will).<BR>
<BR>
	Another possibility is that their drives were sensitive such that<BR>
they required extensive maintenance after each jump.  Yet another<BR>
possibility is that early Terrans didn't have the ability to jump into<BR>
empty space, requiring a mass as a "landing marker".  That might have<BR>
required knowledge of navigation techniques which they just never happened<BR>
upon (or I should say "took them a long time to happen upon"). Possibly<BR>
they tried it (secretly)  and the ship never came back due to their<BR>
insufficient knowledge of navigation (or a random and unfortunate mis-jump<BR>
which sent them "back to the drawing boards"). After this loss of an<BR>
expensive ship (and possibly its crew if it was manned) they didn't try it<BR>
again until they had a better understanding of the principles.  Any or all<BR>
of these may be combined as you wish.<BR>
<BR>
	Then again, it might all be explained as a "lack of interest" <BR>
phenomenon.  Seems bizarre to us that someone with an interstellar drive<BR>
wouldn't be dying to use it, but then the same might be said of<BR>
interplanetary drives, and look where we are now: We tried a few<BR>
short-range jaunts and haven't been further than LEO for over 20 years. <BR>
We have the capability, but insufficient desire.  As Pournelle said "I<BR>
always knew I would live to see the first man on the moon, I never dreamed<BR>
I would see the last."  In fact, to stretch the analogy: Moon is to Pluto<BR>
as Pluto is to Barnard's Star (no, not the same ratios I know, but...).<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Unusual Battlefield Communications <BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>	I heard that British soldiers telephoned civilians <BR>
>in nearby towns for intel on enemy movements during the<BR>
>Fauklands conflict, but I don't know if this actually <BR>
>happened.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe they learned from 1st Para's experience at Arnhem<BR>
during Operation Market Garden.  (The local telephone<BR>
system worked all the way through the battle, and the<BR>
paratroopers were having various problems with radios (like<BR>
not having them at all in some cases), but the soldiers<BR>
didn't ask the civilians if they could use the phone to<BR>
find out what was happening across town.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:34:34 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
Pictures from my digital camera are now posted at<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
<BR>
Don't you wish you were there? :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:37 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Cc: Kirsten M. Berry<BR>
> Subject: BayCon Party Report<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I'm still exhausted, since we had to stick around for the Bitch and Moan<BR>
> panel at the end of the con, so this is going to be a bit loose.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Great turnout of the local folk, and again thanks to everyone<BR>
> who helped<BR>
> out with funding and food.  Jesse and his entourage brought a bag of faux<BR>
> weaponry that would have given FLARE (con security) collective heart<BR>
> failure had we ventured out into the halls with it.  Jesse also did a<BR>
> wonderful Ditzie drawing for the party, which he's going to scan<BR>
> in.  Glenn<BR>
> Goffin showed up in his persona as Consul to Ming, ruler of Mongo.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. The surprise guest was John Groth, who came out from Louisiana on a bus<BR>
> for the convention!  It was great meeting him, and he got one of the<BR>
> freebie copies of Starports that SJG had sent me as promotional items.  We<BR>
> also passed out copies of the latest GT promotional poster.<BR>
><BR>
> 3. The most oft-repeated line of Saturday night was "I used to play that"<BR>
> from people wandering into the room.  Many people were surprised to learn<BR>
> that Traveller was still in print, and told me directly that they were<BR>
> going to order copies of the books.  Mission accomplished!<BR>
><BR>
> 4. One of the more popular items was the copy of ACQ I brought along.  At<BR>
> least seven people asked to see the penguins.  Speaking of penguins...<BR>
><BR>
> 5. We were visited by a stuffed Fairy Penguin, allowing me to demonstrate<BR>
> the proper technique used when throwing one in combat.  The unfortunate<BR>
> John Groth found himself looking down the beak of an enraged attack bird.<BR>
> After this, we held the penguin at gunpoint, trying to interrogate it.<BR>
><BR>
> 6. We had tons of food.. spinach dip, salsa in Diplomat, Marine and Scout<BR>
> grades, black and red M&Ms, over 250 cans of soda..  the theme of Sunday<BR>
> night's bash was "please eat this, I don't want to carry it home!"<BR>
><BR>
> 7. Both nights we were pretty full, with all sorts of interesting<BR>
> conversations going on, both Traveller and non-Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
> 8. Thing I can live without ever seeing again: Jesse DeGraff<BR>
> dancing to "YMCA"<BR>
><BR>
> 9. Best thing that nobody else saw: Me reciting the Beowulf distress call<BR>
> after breathing helium.<BR>
><BR>
> 10. Next year, the third annual (insert blurb here) Traveller Party!<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> "But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
> perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
> limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:03:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
Robert Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This is a lesson for me and perhaps others on this list.<BR>
<BR>
>Complexity is not necessarily the same as detail.  Detail<BR>
>is a measure of finely organized features that add to the<BR>
>aesthetic appreciation of the subject.<BR>
<BR>
While I agree with the basic thrust here, I do believe that the process of<BR>
generating detail may certainly be complex. On the other hand, the ability<BR>
to organize features may take the form of "paring down" or "weeding out"<BR>
useless information.<BR>
<BR>
>Complexity is not necessarily the same as "realism".  When<BR>
>I say "realism", I really mean whatever word means the<BR>
>nature of a system to contain an easily discernable order<BR>
>amidst a larger impression of infinite variability, both of<BR>
>which have an affinity to human nature.  Rules can be discerned;<BR>
>the gestalt often cannot.<BR>
<BR>
In that case, when you say realism, I think that you mean "order" or maybe<BR>
even "consistency".<BR>
<BR>
>Theorem GOODPLAY-1:<BR>
>   Complexity is not a factor of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
I might be inclined to agree, since I have no idea of how you've defined<BR>
complexity in this context. All I know is that in your version of things<BR>
complexity isn't necessarily the same as detail or "realism". Defining what<BR>
something isn't doesn't define what something is.<BR>
<BR>
>Corollary:<BR>
>   Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
<BR>
I can't agree with this, really. Good game lay is way too subjective. I can<BR>
easily imagine situations where detail and "realism" would be completely<BR>
superfluous or at odds with what I would consider good. Good gameplay is a<BR>
delicate balancing act and the criteria for good gameplay can change from<BR>
campaign to campaign, adventure to adventure, or gaming session to gaming<BR>
session.<BR>
<BR>
>EXAMPLES<BR>
><BR>
>(1) World Generation<BR>
><BR>
>   I am glad most Traveller material lacks world complexity<BR>
>   which adds next to nothing to most Traveller games.  The<BR>
>   Traveller basic world generation rules and system generation<BR>
>   rules are a good balance of detail, appropriate for a referee<BR>
>   to take and run with.  Each number is meaningful (I think)<BR>
>   and useful, and there's no major information left out.  Well,<BR>
>   except the X-Boat route markers...<BR>
<BR>
Ach! I certainly can't agree here. As a GM I am always left wanting more<BR>
detail than the basic world generation system spits out. Among the things<BR>
which I find myself needing are: a world's gravity, what the atmosphere is<BR>
made of, how many other settlements are in the system the world is a part<BR>
of, basic information about the weather and temperature and finally, the<BR>
length of local days.<BR>
<BR>
>   On the other hand...<BR>
><BR>
>   Worlds generated with a complex variety of numbers for<BR>
>   atmosphere, temperature gradients, chemical components,<BR>
>   weather patterns, axial tilt, &tc is useless beyond<BR>
>   a basic awareness of what the referee is going to<BR>
>   throw at you.  If you don't use it, why have it?<BR>
<BR>
I never thought that the world generation system's primary purpose was to<BR>
figure out what the GM is going to throw at players. I thought the world<BR>
generation system was designed to give the GM ideas for designing a setting<BR>
for adventures or campaigns. Maybe the players shouldn't know more than the<BR>
basic "profile" of a world, maybe they should. That's moot, though, as the<BR>
system is set up for GMs, not players.<BR>
<BR>
>    Perhaps some people do use it?<BR>
<BR>
Previously, I used the advanced world generation systems in "Book 6: Scouts"<BR>
and MegaTraveller. Now I'm all about "First In". I use the "extra"<BR>
information to flesh out the worlds in my campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
<(2) Starship Construction><BR>
<BR>
I snipped the bit on Starship Construction as I really don't have an opinion<BR>
one way on the other. In my campaigns starships tend to get used to get the<BR>
players from one place or another and I have never gotten to the point where<BR>
the "stock" ships were insufficient for this task.<BR>
<BR>
>(3) Player Character Generation<BR>
><BR>
>    Here's one system that's done right.  Basic and Advanced<BR>
>    chargen are both sensible, complete systems, with realism<BR>
>    and detail.  Notice that the things that were done right<BR>
>    the first time change the least?<BR>
<BR>
These systems are missing something else though, which some players expect:<BR>
the notion that players should have some control over the destiny of their<BR>
characters. I have to agree with Eris on this one and say: whatever works<BR>
for you, as long as the players are "satisfied" with the results and the<BR>
results "work" with the other systems in the game. I have one player in the<BR>
group I game with who absolutely adores characters generated randomly. I<BR>
enjoy generating characters randomly. Not everybody does.<BR>
<BR>
>CONCLUSIONS<BR>
><BR>
>Starship construction has changed in EVERY version of Traveller<BR>
>because it either (1) wasn't "complete", or (2) was too complex.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that it's because starships fill an odd niche in Traveller games.<BR>
Many details are not essential to playing in the universe, although their<BR>
existence is required by the universe. The nature of such vehicles is such<BR>
that very basic information can be used in most situations (how fast does it<BR>
go, how far can it jump, how many people can it carry, how much cargo can it<BR>
carry?) but some situations will invariably call for much more detail (how<BR>
long is it, how wide is it, how tall is it, how much armor does it have, how<BR>
good are its sensors, how good are its weapons, what happens if the toilet<BR>
plumbing ruptures, how wide are the air ducts, what happens if there are<BR>
veridian roaches wandering about on the ship, what kind of replacement parts<BR>
might be needed for the air filtration system, how much do individual<BR>
replacement parts cost, can a specific system be repaired while the ship is<BR>
in the middle of combat, how much food is on board, what does the ship look<BR>
like?). I don't think that there will ever be a version which will satisfy<BR>
everybody, which is why starship construction has changed in every version<BR>
of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
<the rest snipped><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:59:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
Since we have Gurps Traveller is there a need (or desire) for T5 (or T4.1) ??  Why should there <BR>
be a T5 ?<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:18:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
At 03:03 PM 5/30/2000 -0400, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
>Robert Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Corollary:<BR>
>>   Detail and "realism" are factors of good game play.<BR>
><BR>
>I can't agree with this, really. Good game lay is way too subjective. I can<BR>
>easily imagine situations where detail and "realism" would be completely<BR>
>superfluous or at odds with what I would consider good. Good gameplay is a<BR>
>delicate balancing act and the criteria for good gameplay can change from<BR>
>campaign to campaign, adventure to adventure, or gaming session to gaming<BR>
>session.<BR>
<BR>
Excellent point.  I make this same thing clear in the Referee's notes in<BR>
ACQ.  I state clearly that the detailed, realistic rules are *not*<BR>
appropriate for every single encounter.  In practise, I prefer to handle<BR>
such combats in a very free-form style.  But if I need to have a detailed<BR>
combat resolution system to handle a critical combat, it's nice to have it.<BR>
<BR>
It is far easier to start with a high level of potential detail, and choose<BR>
not to use it than to begin with low levels of detail (or complexity) and<BR>
have to add it as you go.<BR>
<BR>
>I never thought that the world generation system's primary purpose was to<BR>
>figure out what the GM is going to throw at players. I thought the world<BR>
>generation system was designed to give the GM ideas for designing a setting<BR>
>for adventures or campaigns. Maybe the players shouldn't know more than the<BR>
>basic "profile" of a world, maybe they should. That's moot, though, as the<BR>
>system is set up for GMs, not players.<BR>
<BR>
Yes!!  Using _First In_ to detail systems should suggest dozens of<BR>
adventures and scenes to the Referee.  Rather than a world that looks much<BR>
like any other Ag, Ri cargo dump, you get a *planet* and an entire solar<BR>
system of possibilities.<BR>
<BR>
I'm considering an article for JTAS on the joys of the single subsector<BR>
campaign, and this is a selling point.  You get away from the tendancy to<BR>
treat worlds as one-trick events, and can create an ongoing, living<BR>
environment for the players to explore.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:23:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sweaty Vargr (eeeewwww!)<BR>
<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
><< Loren, do Vargr inherit their sweat glands on nose, feet and hands<BR>
> from their canine ancestors, or have they more general radiators<BR>
> like we primates?  Is every handshake with a Vargr like "grabbing a<BR>
> wet fish?"<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>Never thought about it. No reason they couldn't have been re-engineered<BR>
with<BR>
>more general sweat glands (or some other system). Presumably Grandfather<BR>
>arranged for them not to drop of heatstroke too often . . .<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I cannot see why Grandfather would have done that.  Why mess with one<BR>
more variable than you have to?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:39:31 -0700<BR>
From: Thing <gduke@kendaco.telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
> Since we have Gurps Traveller is there a need (or desire) for T5 (or T4.1) <BR>
??<BR>
> Why should there be a T5 ?<BR>
<BR>
I have a desire for T5, as i have never been partial to the GURPS rules and <BR>
mechanics.  I have a desire for Traveller to be more than just a setting and <BR>
source material under GURPS, but a complete game system on its own again.  I <BR>
loved/love the classic simplicity of the classic Traveller system and loved <BR>
T4's attempt to return to it.  I still use T4 (with liberal modifications and <BR>
borrowings from CT & MT) and hope and plan to use T5 in my current campaign <BR>
once it sees the light of day.  I have great hopes for T5 building on the the <BR>
ground laid in its previous incarnations.<BR>
<BR>
I would love for an easy way to convert GURPS characters, beasties and ships <BR>
into other Traveller versions tho since it seems that some excellent material <BR>
is being released in GURPS form.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
======<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:48:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
Heinlein's Starship Troopers comes to mind as the real inspiration behind<BR>
Mecha. The movie missed that part of the book.<BR>
<BR>
Heinlein went into great detail describing what the Trooper's armored suits<BR>
were capable of...many RPGs, Traveller included, borrow the concept to some<BR>
degree. It's really just a question of scale.<BR>
<BR>
Designing Mecha within FFS2 isn't as bad as it sounds...once you figure<BR>
displacement :-). The problems I've encountered with trying to design a<BR>
battlemover were control-related. Where to you draw the line between having<BR>
to use a robot brain or a regular vehicle computer?<BR>
<BR>
To my mind, Battle Management within an armored suit is very user oriented,<BR>
and would need a powerful computer with strong AI support.<BR>
<BR>
There could be many reasons Mecha would flourish on a given world: Arms<BR>
treaties: Armored vehicles are prohibited, but "personal" (Up to, say, 30<BR>
meters) armor is not. A Megacorp's R&D project taken to the extreme (GENOM<BR>
LIC, Imperial Bourses Code: GENI). Maybe a Merc Battalion that uses them as<BR>
their calling cards (Doubtless against an always lower-tech foe). Even<BR>
gladiatorial-style games.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:26 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >   Is the invention/development of Contra/Anti-grav the branch point<BR>
> >between 'Mecha' universes and 'Gravank' universes?<BR>
><BR>
> No. The real point at which a mecha universe and the Traveller universe<BR>
> differ has nothing to do with the technology involved and everything to do<BR>
> with the material each universe would draw on for inspiration. The<BR>
Traveller<BR>
> universe draws heavily on certain elements from literary sci-fi in a<BR>
> specific tradition. A mecha universe draws heavily on certain elements<BR>
from<BR>
> anime movies and television shows.<BR>
><BR>
> While I don't really think that the two have to be completely<BR>
incompatible,<BR>
> I imagine that you'd have to do a fair deal of work with respect to<BR>
> justifying how big, mostly humanoid vehicles developed and why they were<BR>
> used over what would appear to be more efficient and useful designs.<BR>
><BR>
> Mecha don't have a lot of really distinct advantages over other types of<BR>
> vehicles. They're humanoid in shape, which means that they are<BR>
> "multi-purpose" to some extent. They can be used in combat or in<BR>
> construction, for example. Depending on how the weapons are fitted,<BR>
changing<BR>
> weapon types could be as easy as dropping one weapon and picking up<BR>
another.<BR>
> Mecha also bring their own high ground with them wherever they go (which<BR>
is<BR>
> also a disadvantage: they have a lot of surface area in the front and rear<BR>
> which makes them more vulnerable than, say, a conventional tank).<BR>
><BR>
> Basically, you have to come up with a reason why mecha would be used<BR>
widely<BR>
> enough for them to figure in prominently to a universe.<BR>
><BR>
> >    The reason I ask is, my Trinity campaign world was initally built in<BR>
> >Mekton Z... with Mecha a large part of life...powersuits needed on the<BR>
> >surface for survival...roadstriker scale for PC combat and the 30 ft<BR>
> >giants being the 'big stick' for the game...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >    Would a G:T/G:Mecha crossover work?<BR>
><BR>
> I think that it could be made to work, although I don't think that the<BR>
> Traveller universe supports such vehicles right out of the box. You'd have<BR>
> to work out your own rationale behind their existence and use.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2528<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (rly-yc03.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.35]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:52:07 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:50:56 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA64044;<BR>
	Tue, 30 May 2000 15:50:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 30 May 2000 15:50:11 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA64014<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:50:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:50:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005301950.PAA64014@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2528<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2529</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/30/00 6:21:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2529<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: T5 and GT<BR>
RE: T5 and GT<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
RE: The Penis Bone<BR>
Re: The Penis Bone<BR>
Zirunkarish (sic?)<BR>
TML Baycon party....<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Starship Construction: What level is simple enough?<BR>
Vs: Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
System Details: How much is enough?<BR>
Re: Protomatter?<BR>
Fleet Combat in T4<BR>
RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
Re: Starship Construction: What level is simple enough?<BR>
Re: We Don`t Need No Steenking Xboats<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Volume-based manuever drives<BR>
Re : Protomatter?<BR>
Re: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:48:03 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
On 05/30/00 at 11:59 AM,  "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Since we have Gurps Traveller is there a need (or desire) for T5 (or<BR>
>T4.1) ??  Why should there  be a T5 ?<BR>
<BR>
Robert, since we have chocolate ice cream is there a need for<BR>
strawberry?  <g><BR>
<BR>
The thing is some people don't like Grups Traveller, but still want<BR>
to play.  Some of them play an earlier version with which they are<BR>
satisfied.  Some aren't satisfied with any version yet done and<BR>
anticipate T5 as another attempt at "getting it right."<BR>
<BR>
I don't think the appearance of T5 will hurt the sales or<BR>
availability of GT, if that's what you are worried about.  I think,<BR>
I hope anyway, they will be complimentary and boost each other's<BR>
sales.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:39:26 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
> Since we have Gurps Traveller is there a need (or desire) for <BR>
> T5 (or T4.1) ??  Why should there be a T5 ?<BR>
<BR>
Sure there should.  GT is a good temporary solution to  keep  the<BR>
game alive but it ain't the real thing!  :-^<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I'm being provocative there.  Actually, I like  GT  ...  it<BR>
has a lot  of  useful  stuff  ...  but  some  of  the  underlying<BR>
mechanics of the GURPS system are not everybodies "cup  of  tea".<BR>
I know there are a lot of GURPS fans, and for them GT is a  dream<BR>
come true (and that's okay) but its not everybodies dream.<BR>
<BR>
To me CT, MT, and T4 are  Traveller.  TNE  and  GT  are  sort  of<BR>
'like' Traveller, but aren't.  (This *doesn't* mean I think badly<BR>
of TNE or GT.)  You could argue that the market doesn't  need  T5<BR>
*right now* ... but one day definately.<BR>
<BR>
We are a diverse lot, and we have  diverse  needs  in  our  RPGs.<BR>
Just because GT is a great game don't be arrogant and assume  its<BR>
the pinicle of gaming achievement that satisfies everyone.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
(Were you trolling, Robert?)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:49:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>The numbers weren't important, but who was killed was.  We<BR>
<BR>
>lost legions of skilled NCOs and officers.  Sure we could <BR>
>fill the basic slots, but we had to promote frankly <BR>
>unqualified sailors far above their level of training.<BR>
<BR>
My father turned 21 in October 1941.  He had been a working<BR>
merchant sailor for three or four years (he'd spent his<BR>
first year as a member of the National Maritime Union on<BR>
strike).  In early 1942, all of the senior men on his ship<BR>
were offered petty officer positions in the Navy.  Pop then<BR>
found himself the old man among the crew on his ship -- at<BR>
21.  It still made him mad when we were talking about it<BR>
thirty years later.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:04:53 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: The Penis Bone<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
>>Oosik, I think it's called.  Popular with many knife<BR>
>>makers for handlematerial.<BR>
>It has a Latin (or maybe Greek) name, too, which is<BR>
>mentioned in the poem.<BR>
<BR>
	The terms that I know for the penis bone are baculum, os priapi,<BR>
	and os penis.  They are found in insectivores (shrew and moles),<BR>
	bats, rodents, and carnivores (the group, not the feeding pattern),<BR>
	and in non-human primates.  HTH.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:17:34 -0600 (MDT)<BR>
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Penis Bone<BR>
<BR>
Os penis, or baculum.<BR>
<BR>
- -merrick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:57:12 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Zirunkarish (sic?)<BR>
<BR>
 Gentles,<BR>
 <BR>
 Anybody out there remember if a symbol was ever created for Zirunkarish<BR>
 (sic?) and if so, where it might be found?<BR>
 <BR>
 e-mail replies, please, no point in taking space away from vital discussions<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 Loren Wiseman<BR>
      Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
      Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
      SJ Games<BR>
      lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
      (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
      (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:01:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: TML Baycon party....<BR>
<BR>
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Oh, and how could I forget the ambassador from the planet<BR>
>Mongo (after all, he gave me a ride home!).<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I'm only the honorary consul, but thanks.  And handling<BR>
that negotiation with the Imperial terrorists, or,<BR>
post-traumatic stress disorder patients, certainly gave me<BR>
a taste of ambassadorial duties (I'm sure you'll see the<BR>
pictures soon enough and know what I'm talking about).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn M. Goffin, Esquire<BR>
Honorary Consul to Terra<BR>
of the Government of the Planet Mongo<BR>
and Its Most Munificent and Protuberant Ruler<BR>
Ming the Merciless<BR>
<BR>
Hail Ming!<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:57:53 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
At 03:50 PM 5/30/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Cool!  Sounds like you guys had a great time.<BR>
<BR>
I hope there was many pictures taken! :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:09:27 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
Matt Helton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Heinlein's Starship Troopers comes to mind as the real inspiration behind<BR>
>Mecha. The movie missed that part of the book.<BR>
<BR>
Not really. The Japanese fascination with big, roughly humanoid things<BR>
fighting goes way back, and I'm not really sure that Starship Troopers has<BR>
ever been described as being influential on this. The mecha concept seems to<BR>
be firmly entrenched in the tradition of Godzilla and Gigantor (the<BR>
Space-Age robot), not Rico and Carmen.<BR>
<BR>
>Heinlein went into great detail describing what the Trooper's armored suits<BR>
>were capable of...many RPGs, Traveller included, borrow the concept to some<BR>
>degree. It's really just a question of scale.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, there is no doubt that Heinlein pioneered the concept of "powered<BR>
armor" and has been massively influential on RPGs. However, I don't really<BR>
see the imprint of Heinlein, or literary sci-fi in general, on Gigantor,<BR>
Voltron, Tranzor-Z or even Robotech (the real spark for the mecha fire).<BR>
FASA's Battletech would merge the two traditions, at least to some extent,<BR>
which would provide a pattern for later products in the roleplaying market.<BR>
<BR>
>Designing Mecha within FFS2 isn't as bad as it sounds...once you figure<BR>
>displacement :-).<BR>
><BR>
>The problems I've encountered with trying to design a battlemover were<BR>
>control-related. Where to you draw the line between having<BR>
>to use a robot brain or a regular vehicle computer?<BR>
><BR>
>To my mind, Battle Management within an armored suit is very user oriented,<BR>
>and would need a powerful computer with strong AI support.<BR>
<BR>
Like I said, the disconnect isn't so much a technical one, but a "look and<BR>
feel" one. Traveller draws inspiration from one tradition, while mecha<BR>
universes draw their inspiration from an entirely different tradition.<BR>
That's not to say that a Traveller universe with mecha isn't Traveller, just<BR>
that there are issues which would have to be worked out.<BR>
<BR>
>There could be many reasons Mecha would flourish on a given world: Arms<BR>
>treaties: Armored vehicles are prohibited, but "personal" (Up to, say, 30<BR>
>meters) armor is not. A Megacorp's R&D project taken to the extreme (GENOM<BR>
>LIC, Imperial Bourses Code: GENI). Maybe a Merc Battalion that uses them as<BR>
>their calling cards (Doubtless against an always lower-tech foe). Even<BR>
>gladiatorial-style games.<BR>
<BR>
There could be, but since I don't really want to add mecha to my campaign, I<BR>
don't feel the need to come up with possible reasons to integrate them. My<BR>
point in my response to "the other Rob" was simply that the difference<BR>
between a mech and non-mech universe is more than just the existence of<BR>
gravitics.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:02:26 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Starship Construction: What level is simple enough?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks so far for the responses.  As usual, I'm tempted<BR>
to go down bunny trails.  I'll save that for another<BR>
post.<BR>
<BR>
I know that Book 2 is not the answer; however it has a <BR>
format I like and miss.  I also agree that it is <BR>
important to have a consistent, common basis for all<BR>
tech Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Now it looks like I have a beef with MT/TNE/FFS... and<BR>
maybe that's so.  One Traveller, a friend of Colin's,<BR>
told me about High Guard version 1, and how it had some<BR>
good ideas that the revision threw out.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps it's a debate between two different philosophies:<BR>
game theory versus realism, whatever you want to call it.<BR>
<BR>
Ever build a battleship with SSDS?  Have these designs <BR>
been proven in combat?  Maybe I just need to see a good <BR>
fight with these things.  Believe it or not, FFS designs <BR>
aren't "real" to me at all because I can't encompass them <BR>
with my mind.<BR>
<BR>
In the meantime, MiniMax rules will bubble in my head.<BR>
What if:<BR>
<BR>
   A ship has either the best possible, or none at all,<BR>
   for each of<BR>
      [ armor | computer | screens | dampers ]<BR>
   according to its TL and hull size.<BR>
<BR>
Is FFS2 meant to be part of a balanced game, or is it<BR>
just a bunch of rules gathered together?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 02:20:41 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01BFCAA6.D195CAA0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  ----- Original Message -----=20<BR>
  From: shimmer=20<BR>
  To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com=20<BR>
  Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:02 AM<BR>
  Subject: Yet another Sector Generator<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  Well, I have v1.0 of Sector Painter Ready.  It should work on any =<BR>
machine that can drop to DOS or on any DOS machine.  The EXE file and =<BR>
OBJ file are only 109k togather, so I will Email it to anybody who is =<BR>
interested in seeing it.  If you want to try to convert the program to =<BR>
another OS I will also be happy to mail you the Qbasic code.  Hower, if =<BR>
you build a Windows version of the program I want a copy of it.<BR>
<BR>
  To those who are annoyed by DOS programs I can only apologize, for I =<BR>
do not know any newer program languages than Qbasic.<BR>
<BR>
I'd like to try your program, could you mail it to me?=20<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01BFCAA6.D195CAA0<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20<BR>
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =<BR>
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV><BR>
  <DIV=20<BR>
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =<BR>
black"><B>From:</B>=20<BR>
  <A HREF="3D">shimmer</A> =<BR>
</DIV><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20<BR>
  href=3D"mailto:traveller@lists.imagiconline.com"=20<BR>
  =<BR>
title=3Dtraveller@lists.imagiconline.com>traveller@lists.imagiconline.com=<BR>
=20<BR>
  </DIV><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 30, 2000 =<BR>
3:02 AM</DIV><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Yet another Sector=20<BR>
  Generator</DIV><BR>
  <DIV><BR>
</DIV>  <DIV>Well, I have v1.0 of Sector Painter =Ready.&nbsp;=20  It should work on any machine that can drop to DOS or on any&nbsp;DOS=20   machine.&nbsp; The EXE file and&nbsp;OBJ file are only 109k togather, = so I=20   will Email it to anybody who is interested in seeing it.&nbsp; If you = want to=20   try to convert the program to another&nbsp;OS I will also be happy to = mail you=20   the Qbasic code.&nbsp; Hower, if you build a Windows version of the = program I=20   want a copy of it.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>To those who are annoyed by DOS = programs I can=20   only apologize, for I do not know any newer program languages than=20  Qbasic.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>I'd like to try your program, could you =mail it to=20me? </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Thanks.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>-J2K</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01BFCAA6.D195CAA0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:08:09 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: System Details: How much is enough?<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller, we have levels of detail about worlds,<BR>
depending on how important that world is.  Thus the system<BR>
is scalable, digestible in small chunks, and (beyond the<BR>
bare bones) very flexible indeed.<BR>
<BR>
(1) Barebones<BR>
<BR>
Regina   1910  A788899-C A Ri       703 Im  F7 V M8 D M6 V<BR>
<BR>
That's the skeleton.  If you're travelling there, you'll <BR>
know what you're probably heading toward.  If you can read<BR>
the UWP.  This is easily rendered into text, as we can<BR>
see with GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
(2) Mainworld<BR>
<BR>
1910 Regina (Imperial Subsector Capital)<BR>
Atmosphere: Dense oxygen-nitrogen.<BR>
Climate: warm.<BR>
Government: Impersonal Bureaucracy (members of the Aledon House)<BR>
Regina is a sizable moon circling the gas giant Assiniboia.<BR>
While the world is heavily populated, large areas remain<BR>
unspoiled, as nature reserves... [etc] <BR>
The world contains the palace of the marquis of Regina ...[etc]<BR>
The University of Regina is located... [etc]<BR>
Near the capital, Atora, ... [etc]<BR>
<BR>
There's some meat about the mainworld.  A descriptive paragraph;<BR>
excellent for travellers.  Throw in some interesting tidbits <BR>
and you're off.<BR>
<BR>
(3) System<BR>
<BR>
And finally, there is the full system information, which has<BR>
UWPs for each orbital body in the system.<BR>
<BR>
Further detail may include information on the various planets;<BR>
however this is where you start stepping on the referee's<BR>
toes.<BR>
<BR>
(4) Maps!<BR>
<BR>
But if you're going to run a campaign on a world, you will<BR>
have to sit down and draw up maps, based on Your Campaign.<BR>
Reference material can be as helpful as it can be a straitjacket,<BR>
but in the end it is all moot, because your job as referee is<BR>
to craft the universe.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Please note that the only detail level necessary is one that<BR>
paints the referee's picture of the system to the players.<BR>
If they can function properly in the system, you've done it<BR>
right.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:20:43 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/30/00 1:49:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
gladiator1999@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I am not sure how o ask a question form this list, I<BR>
>  hope I dont screw it up but here it goes. Can anyone<BR>
>  tell me what/how protomatter works. I am using it in<BR>
>  an alternate timeline, mainly as missile warheads. How<BR>
>  much more explosive would this material be that<BR>
>  antimatter?  Thanx, Troy<BR>
<BR>
Protomatter does not exist.  It was a typical piece of Star Trek<BR>
technobabble, designed to sound scientific while not actually<BR>
referring to anything in the real world.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:11:31 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Fleet Combat in T4<BR>
<BR>
I'm wondering, since I didn't get Imperial Squadrons,<BR>
what fleet combat is like in T4.  Anybody done it?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:32:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Why Starship Construction must change or die<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Excellent point.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
>I make this same thing clear in the Referee's notes in<BR>
>ACQ.  I state clearly that the detailed, realistic rules are *not*<BR>
>appropriate for every single encounter.  In practise, I prefer to handle<BR>
>such combats in a very free-form style.  But if I need to have a detailed<BR>
>combat resolution system to handle a critical combat, it's nice to have it.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly. Maybe a brawl at a starport bar might have a purpose above and<BR>
beyond "in game considerations". After all, maybe two players were arguing<BR>
earlier and the tension's been high, maybe there's a little too much "spring<BR>
fever" in the air and the players are restless, or goofing off too much. A<BR>
little chaos and disorder in the handling might be appropriate. On the other<BR>
hand, a small mercenary unit attempting to break into a compound and<BR>
neutralize an enemy general might require a bit more order and detail.<BR>
<BR>
What's good one Wednesday night is not necessarily good the next Wednesday<BR>
night.<BR>
<BR>
>It is far easier to start with a high level of potential detail, and choose<BR>
>not to use it than to begin with low levels of detail (or complexity) and<BR>
>have to add it as you go.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly. You can always get a haircut, but you have to wait awhile for it to<BR>
grow back. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Yes!!  Using _First In_ to detail systems should suggest dozens of<BR>
>adventures and scenes to the Referee.  Rather than a world that looks much<BR>
>like any other Ag, Ri cargo dump, you get a *planet* and an entire solar<BR>
>system of possibilities.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. That's where the real strength of more advanced world generation<BR>
systems come in.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm considering an article for JTAS on the joys of the single subsector<BR>
>campaign, and this is a selling point.  You get away from the tendancy to<BR>
>treat worlds as one-trick events, and can create an ongoing, living<BR>
>environment for the players to explore.<BR>
<BR>
Cool. I can't wait to see it!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:57:35 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction: What level is simple enough?<BR>
<BR>
In response to the overall question:<BR>
<BR>
It depends on what I need the ship for.  A ship whose plot role is 'hover there looking impressive' doesn't really need anything more than a displacement and a configuration (Tigress: 500,000 tD spherical warship.  What more do I need to know?).  On the other hand, if it's a merchant ship the PCs are crewing then I want quite a bit of information, and probably a deckplan.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:06:05 EDT<BR>
From: LB2NOLA@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: We Don`t Need No Steenking Xboats<BR>
<BR>
Just a point of fact...Book 0: under Modifications: "The speed of <BR>
communication should never be allowed to exceed the speed of travel." (bold <BR>
added),  I think that this has always been asusmed to mean that information <BR>
travels on star-ships.  So, I guess we need those steenking Xboats!<BR>
<BR>
On a completely different subject:  Anyone know where I can pick up a copy of <BR>
DGP's World Builder's Handbook?<BR>
<BR>
Clark<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:12:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, The Japanese have tended to go their own way when it came to power<BR>
armor ...From Macross'84 (The Ultimate mobile home - complete with the<BR>
de-rigeur MAIN CANNON) the to the Genesis Climber Mospeeda's Cyclones<BR>
(Motorcycle/Semi-powered assault Armor)<BR>
<BR>
    Speaking of Main Cannons...EVERY and I do mean EVERY piece of heavy duty<BR>
gear the Japanese have ever shown has had some sort of a MAIN CANNON.<BR>
<BR>
Yamato: "Wave Motion Gun"<BR>
FireBirds: "Fiery Phoenix" (Kinetic Kill Vehicle mode)<BR>
Voltron: Balzing Sword after using every other piece of (Ineffective)<BR>
ordnance they had at the Robeasts.<BR>
Macross: "Main Cannon"<BR>
MegaZone23 Pt2. Assault Carrier: "Main Cannon"<BR>
<BR>
A Fixation with size...veddy interesting...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:09 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Helton wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Heinlein's Starship Troopers comes to mind as the real inspiration behind<BR>
> >Mecha. The movie missed that part of the book.<BR>
><BR>
> Not really. The Japanese fascination with big, roughly humanoid things<BR>
> fighting goes way back, and I'm not really sure that Starship Troopers has<BR>
> ever been described as being influential on this. The mecha concept seems<BR>
to<BR>
> be firmly entrenched in the tradition of Godzilla and Gigantor (the<BR>
> Space-Age robot), not Rico and Carmen.<BR>
><BR>
> >Heinlein went into great detail describing what the Trooper's armored<BR>
suits<BR>
> >were capable of...many RPGs, Traveller included, borrow the concept to<BR>
some<BR>
> >degree. It's really just a question of scale.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, there is no doubt that Heinlein pioneered the concept of "powered<BR>
> armor" and has been massively influential on RPGs. However, I don't really<BR>
> see the imprint of Heinlein, or literary sci-fi in general, on Gigantor,<BR>
> Voltron, Tranzor-Z or even Robotech (the real spark for the mecha fire).<BR>
> FASA's Battletech would merge the two traditions, at least to some extent,<BR>
> which would provide a pattern for later products in the roleplaying<BR>
market.<BR>
><BR>
> >Designing Mecha within FFS2 isn't as bad as it sounds...once you figure<BR>
> >displacement :-).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The problems I've encountered with trying to design a battlemover were<BR>
> >control-related. Where to you draw the line between having<BR>
> >to use a robot brain or a regular vehicle computer?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >To my mind, Battle Management within an armored suit is very user<BR>
oriented,<BR>
> >and would need a powerful computer with strong AI support.<BR>
><BR>
> Like I said, the disconnect isn't so much a technical one, but a "look and<BR>
> feel" one. Traveller draws inspiration from one tradition, while mecha<BR>
> universes draw their inspiration from an entirely different tradition.<BR>
> That's not to say that a Traveller universe with mecha isn't Traveller,<BR>
just<BR>
> that there are issues which would have to be worked out.<BR>
><BR>
> >There could be many reasons Mecha would flourish on a given world: Arms<BR>
> >treaties: Armored vehicles are prohibited, but "personal" (Up to, say, 30<BR>
> >meters) armor is not. A Megacorp's R&D project taken to the extreme<BR>
(GENOM<BR>
> >LIC, Imperial Bourses Code: GENI). Maybe a Merc Battalion that uses them<BR>
as<BR>
> >their calling cards (Doubtless against an always lower-tech foe). Even<BR>
> >gladiatorial-style games.<BR>
><BR>
> There could be, but since I don't really want to add mecha to my campaign,<BR>
I<BR>
> don't feel the need to come up with possible reasons to integrate them. My<BR>
> point in my response to "the other Rob" was simply that the difference<BR>
> between a mech and non-mech universe is more than just the existence of<BR>
> gravitics.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:37:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Volume-based manuever drives<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiousity -- has anyone considered the question of whether manuever drives really should be a volume-based phenomenon (like Jump) <BR>
rather than a thrust-based phenomenon (like a real reaction engine)?  It's<BR>
certainly treated that way in High Guard, but that was treated as an approximation for FF&S.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:47:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
Troy Bradley wrote :-<BR>
> Can anyone<BR>
> tell me what/how protomatter works. I am using it in<BR>
> an alternate timeline, mainly as missile warheads. How<BR>
> much more explosive would this material be that<BR>
> antimatter?<BR>
<BR>
What's 'protomatter', exactly? Odd stuff left over from the formation of<BR>
the universe (e.g. strange matter)?<BR>
<BR>
Antimatter is the most 'explosive' substance possible. All of its mass<BR>
is converted to energy if combined with an equal amount of matter (so<BR>
energy yield = 2mc^2, from Einstein).<BR>
<BR>
Other 'protomatter' candidates include :-<BR>
- - 'degenerate' or nuclear matter - compressed ordinary matter such as<BR>
that found in the cores of neutron stars ; yield would mostly be in<BR>
X-rays and gammas, in the 'fusion range' (~0.1% mass available as<BR>
energy). Containment might be difficult.<BR>
- - 'Q-balls' - collections of strange matter* - squarks and selectrons.<BR>
Odd properties. A chunk of strange matter the size of an iron nucleus<BR>
could weigh 0.1 milligram. Ordinary matter is converted to pions (with<BR>
eventual gamma emission) on interaction. Again, probably fusion range<BR>
yield.<BR>
	(Which is why I consider Q-ball cannons a potential technobabble for<BR>
the canonical meson gun).<BR>
- - Others : mini black holes ; superstring fragments ; WIMP-balls. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
* - these exist if supersymmetry does.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:23:44 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
Oh sweet Strephon yes!  Some of us love<BR>
GT material for its content and general rules,<BR>
as opposed to Gurps-specific rules, such as<BR>
chargen.<BR>
<BR>
Career based Chargen, that's for me!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Since we have Gurps Traveller is there a need (or desire) for T5 (or T4.1) ??  Why should there<BR>
> be a T5 ?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2529<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 21:21:13 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 21:20:37 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA76900;<BR>
	Tue, 30 May 2000 21:19:41 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 30 May 2000 21:19:31 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA76862<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 21:19:30 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:19:30 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005310119.VAA76862@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2529<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2530</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/30/00 8:26:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2530<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics (long)<BR>
Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
Re: [OT] Capital Capitol<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics questions<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: Protomatter?<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
BayCon Photos!!   (was Re: BayCon Party Report)<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Protomatter?<BR>
Re: Request to Famile Spofulam (was: High Speed Lawnmowers)<BR>
Re: Protomatter?<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:21:45 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
 Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >>Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> >>>Regina is SubSector Capitol and possibly Sector Capitol.<BR>
> >"Regina (1910) quickly established itself as a trade center<BR>
> >and the capitol." <BR>
<BR>
> [Are you sure it says capitol? The Capitol (according to my dictionary<BR>
> there's only one) is the building where the US Congress sits.]<BR>
<BR>
Actually it says capital, the o was a typo, sorry.<BR>
<BR>
> Since I don't have the book with me, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure<BR>
> it is talking about Regina's early days, back when it became a center for<BR>
> a number of surrounding worlds BEFORE they all joined the Imperium _en<BR>
> bloc_. It is quite plausible that Regina did become a capital quite early.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly, the full sentence is "Major settlements were in place <BR>
in this subsector very early in the history of the Marches; <BR>
Regina (19190) quickly established itself as a trade center <BR>
and the capitol."<BR>
<BR>
As I said the sentence itself can be read as meaning subsector<BR>
capital not sector capital _but_ the only other Imperial subsector <BR>
whose capital is mentioned, Villis, explicitly says subsector<BR>
capital. I see this as a distinction YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> >Yes but the source I am using is the 'historical' text which<BR>
> >states that Regina was settled in 75 and 'soon' became capital<BR>
> >Therefore I am estimating that it became Subsector Capitol and<BR>
> >(arguably) Sector Capitol circa 100<BR>
> <BR>
> The Regina Cluster didn't join the Imperium until 250. <BR>
<BR>
The SMC states [p 19] that Ruie was "presented with the opportunity<BR>
to join the Imperium in 235". If Ruie which is right next to<BR>
Regina was offered membership in 235 than I suspect Regina was <BR>
also offered membership around or before 235. Thus I think that <BR>
the 250 date was the date by which all of the cluster (except<BR>
Ruie) had joined the Imperium. Therefor I would place Regina's<BR>
joining slightly before 250.<BR>
<BR>
At that time the<BR>
> Imperium had had a presence in the sector for 190 years. MY estimate is<BR>
> Mora had been the most important Imperial world in the Marches for the<BR>
> whole time.<BR>
<BR>
A planet can be established as subsector capitol before said<BR>
subsector actually joins the Imperium. [See District 268 of which <BR>
the text says "As a district, its worlds are not members of the<BR>
Imperium, but they do receive Imperial protection. Imperial<BR>
affairs are administered from Glisten (2036) although a token<BR>
capital is maintained at Mercator." If a subsector not in the<BR>
Imperium can have an Imperial capital than why can't a sector?<BR>
YMMV<BR>
<BR>
> >Well the 'real' Zhodani embassy is on Capitol/Core. I'm not <BR>
> >sure that the Consulate has consulates at each subsectors<BR>
> >government and am not aware of any text that says that they do.<BR>
> <BR>
> Nor am I, but subsector governments are said to have considerable autonomy<BR>
> (just how much is something Chris Thrash and I are discussing at the<BR>
> moment ;-), so the notion is not, IMO, unreasonable.<BR>
<BR>
Traditionally foreign affairs has been one of the areas that<BR>
'federal' type governments keep to themselves. I don't think<BR>
it is in the best interests of the Imperium to let the Zhodani<BR>
have too many consulates. More consulates = more opportunities<BR>
for trouble. If their were such consulates I think that they<BR>
would have been closed after the psionics suppressions. Given<BR>
that two ninth's of the Zhodani population are trained psionicists<BR>
and Imperial citizens have been known to spontaneously lynch<BR>
suspected psionicists I'm not sure its in the Zhodani's best<BR>
interests as well. <BR>
<BR>
> >What I am suggesting that the evidence suggests is that:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Regina was Sector Capitol until it was threatened by the Zhodani in the<BR>
> >Fifth Frontier War. Then it was moved to Mora which was safer circa 1107<BR>
> >or so. After the war the capitol was moved back to Regina. In 1117 the<BR>
> >Sector Capitol was moved back to Mora as Norris was initially concerned<BR>
> >that Regina was vulnerable. Sometime after 1127 or so but before 1200 the<BR>
> >Sector Capitol was again moved back to Regina but the Domain and later<BR>
> >the Regency capitol was left at Regina [sic].<BR>
> <BR>
> All this ignores one fact: That all this time the sector duke of the Spinward<BR>
> Marches is Delphine and not Norris. As sector duke, Delphine is the head of<BR>
> the sector government. I find it just a bit more likely that Delphine would<BR>
> set up shop on her own world than on Regina.<BR>
>  <BR>
> >>There are references in Megatraveller Journal to Mora being the sector<BR>
> >>capital and remaining the sector capital when Norris set up the domain<BR>
> >>capital there. <BR>
> > <BR>
> >Yes but this text only established that as of the date in question Mora<BR>
> >was Sector Capitol. It does not establish that it had been Sector Capitol<BR>
> >for long nor that it would stay Sector Capitol for long.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, it does say that it has been sector capital long enough for a whole<BR>
> arcology to be built to house the sector government.<BR>
> <BR>
> >>And since Mora has been the most important Imperial planet in the Spinward<BR>
> >>Marches since the year 60, I consider that the most likely to be true.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The fact that Mora is arguably the most important Imperial planet in the<BR>
> >Marches has little or nothing to do with it becoming the Sector Capital.<BR>
> >Throughout history it has often been the case that states on earth have<BR>
> >their political capitols at locations that are not the most important city<BR>
> >in the realm. I see no reason to suppose that this trend will not continue.<BR>
> <BR>
> OK, let me rephrase that: And since Mora is the seat of the sector duke,<BR>
> I consider that most likely to be true.<BR>
> <BR>
> >What I am saying is that Norris even before he became Archduke was (after<BR>
> >the Fifth Frontier War) the Senior Archduke in the Sector and that therefore<BR>
> >he had the 'pull' to get the Capitol returned to Regina.<BR>
> <BR>
> I suppose you mean that after the 5FW Norris was the most senior DUKE in the<BR>
> sector. That is not true. He may have been (almost certainly was) the most<BR>
> popular duke, but with nobility 'senior' means 'established earlier' and<BR>
> that does not change. <BR>
<BR>
It does in Traveller. Traveller canon states that "generally one<BR>
Duke within a sector rises to power and comes to be the sector duke,<BR>
who is the ruler of that sector" [MT Imp Enc. p 15, Nobles entry].<BR>
The text does not indicate that the sector dukedom is hereditary<BR>
therefore the fact that the Duchy of Mora was established before<BR>
the Duchy of Regina is irrelevant. What I am suggesting is that<BR>
after he did so well in the Fifth Frontier War Norris came to be <BR>
the sector Duke." IMTU Delphine did not take this well and this is<BR>
a big part of the personality conflict between Delphine and Norris.<BR>
YMMV. Moreover since the text states that "_generally_ one<BR>
Duke rises to power it seems possible that the Spinward Marches<BR>
did not have a sector duke before the 5FW.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean that he became sector duke after the 5FW,<BR>
> then I disagree there too. Only the Emperor could promote him to sector<BR>
> duke, and he didn't. <BR>
<BR>
The text clearly states that the sector duke "rises to power" <BR>
not "is given the rank by the Emperor". Sector Dukedom is apparently <BR>
achieved by merit, politics, blackmail, etc. If your Traveller <BR>
Universe has Sector Moots then this is the obvious place for <BR>
this to occur.<BR>
<BR>
> Instead he went one better and made him archduke.<BR>
<BR>
Only in GURPS:Trav which is an alternate timeline. In the<BR>
'real' Traveller timeline Norris made himself Archduke and<BR>
Strephon merely confirmed it later. <BR>
<BR>
> But Delphine remained sector duke.<BR>
<BR>
Where do you get that from? Even if Mora was the sector capitol<BR>
it does not necessarily follow that Delphine was the sector<BR>
Duke.<BR>
<BR>
> >Given the mass of contradictory information the simplest explanation I see<BR>
> >is that the Sector Capitol was moved. <BR>
> <BR>
> And since I can find no evidence to suggest that Norris was ever sector duke,<BR>
<BR>
Nor are there references to Delphine being sector duke.<BR>
<BR>
> I think that the simplest explanation is that the references to Regina being<BR>
> sector capital are mistaken and/or refers to being subsector capital instead.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly but as written the references are inconsistent. This<BR>
suggests to me that the capitol was moved, possibly multiple times.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that Regina is (prior to the Third Frontier War) a <BR>
much better place for sector capital than Mora is. Mora is<BR>
not very centrally located. Regina prior to the losses in the<BR>
First, Second and Third wars is fairly central. Moreover before the<BR>
First Frontier War the Imperium extended into Forever Sector<BR>
[SMC p 18].<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:22:53 -0700<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics (long)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/30/00 1:31 AM, postmark.design@btinternet.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
>> .> From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
> <BR>
>>> 2.) Can a ship with AG reduce its internal gravity to less than the<BR>
>>> external gravity field it resides in? (Who needs a CG forlift in<BR>
>>> a zero-G cargo hold?)<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Yes. This is what grav compensators can do.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> You still want the fork, btw, because zero gee is an unforgiving environment<BR>
>> to work in.<BR>
> <BR>
> The thirty ton cargo container that's heading towards you in zero G keeps on<BR>
> coming in precisely the way that one on Earth doesn't.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, I have been on a crusade to wipe out as must "Star Trek-like" fantasy<BR>
nonsense from Trav as I can -- keeping that which is scientifically feasible<BR>
(at least to some degree). (It's not that I don't like Star Trek, but I<BR>
don't consider it a good example of sci-fi, as much as it is fantasy with<BR>
'hi-tech' looking props.)<BR>
<BR>
Recognizing that certain fantasies must exist in order to play an<BR>
interstellar RPG, I have no problem with Jump Drive in the game. But there<BR>
are a few other 'canon' impossibilities that exist, and I, (just speaking<BR>
for myself) do not believe they are necessary to the play of the game<BR>
(unlike Jump.)<BR>
<BR>
El Numero Uno most malodorous fantasy in Trav: shipboard gravitics. Yes, I<BR>
know it's canon! That's not the point. Anyone worth their salt in the most<BR>
rudimentary physics knows that 'gravity' (or the 'sensation' of gravity) can<BR>
only be achieved through acceleration, or a massive body (like a planet.)<BR>
There is no other way. There is no magic that simply turns gravity on and<BR>
off at a switch as if it behaved like the electromagnetic force. AND, if<BR>
there were a manner to provide gravity on board a ship, the ship would<BR>
suddenly stop whatever maneuvering vector it was on, as it now must haul the<BR>
effective mass of a large body behind it. It does not matter if the body be<BR>
large or tiny in volume (a planet vs. a micro-black hole, for instance), it<BR>
still has far more mass that the ship's engines and fuel could possibly<BR>
move.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and the argument that a ship without gravitics would be an 'unfriendly'<BR>
or 'difficult' environment to work in, is merely a lazy cop-out, and shows a<BR>
want of imagination. Sure it's difficult to work in zero, or near-zero, G --<BR>
so what?? I'm sick of seeing 'spacecraft' that looks and operates like<BR>
atmospheric aircraft flying within a gravity-well. The Star Wars X-wing<BR>
fighter scenes were more akin to WWII dogfights that anything that would<BR>
happen in *space*.<BR>
<BR>
Isn't anyone else tired of playing pseudoscientist, trying to<BR>
authoritatively answer the difficult questions that inevitably will arise<BR>
when people are using (and drawing the logical conclusions from) a decidedly<BR>
unscientific and spurious misappropriation of facts that amount to nothing<BR>
more than a contrived literary device? "Wouldn't it be nice if people could<BR>
wander about a ship in deep space as if they were on a 747 between LaGuardia<BR>
and Heathrow? Star Trek makes it look so _easy_ to 'go where none have gone<BR>
before...'" Bah and Humbug.<BR>
<BR>
Like I said, I do not believe that Trav can survive as any kind of an<BR>
interstellar RPG (with a contiguous history/culture devoid of the effects of<BR>
time-dilation) without Jump Drive. (Or something equivalent, no matter how<BR>
you slice it, so Jump is just fine.) But, really, are shipboard gravitics<BR>
essential to the game, or merely convenient to design around? (What are<BR>
those 'Zero-G' skills for, anyway?) It's incongruous. It gratuitously<BR>
muddles up something potentially pristine. It's like refitting a soldier<BR>
wearing the inexorable logic of TL14 battledress with a "spear and magic<BR>
helmet."<BR>
<BR>
Does it make it easier for people to identify with their character? Do they<BR>
like it because they can imagine the shipboard furniture better? Is it<BR>
because they don't much cotton to the esthetics of null-G, or protective<BR>
acceleration 'couches?' Our idea of the incredible inconveniences of<BR>
null/hyper-G probably wouldn't be quite as bad for characters living in a<BR>
thousands-year-old space faring culture. Think about it. We design almost<BR>
all our ideas of spacecraft, unconsciously or otherwise, on the assumption<BR>
of gravity. No doubt because we live in a thousands-year-old culture of<BR>
being on the surface of a planet.<BR>
<BR>
So, just orient your maneuver drives perpendicular to the floor plan and do<BR>
a lot of 1-G travel - thus allowing all aboard to exist as if in an<BR>
earth-like gravity-well. Make the floors and ceilings interchangable as the<BR>
ship turns about for "deceleration." And it doesn't take very long for a<BR>
vessel accelerating at 1-G to reach incredible velocities. In case of a real<BR>
hurry, or evasive maneuvers, they can simply climb into protective stations<BR>
- -- not too much for the whole crew to do during such extreme acceleration<BR>
anyway, especially considering that the 'enemy' must operate under the same<BR>
laws of physics as you do. Yes, this will mean a larger role for the ship's<BR>
computer, and the increasing irrelevance of a human pilot skill, depending<BR>
on the size of the ship and its maneuver/agility potential -- but that seems<BR>
in line with the nature of technology and computers anyway.<BR>
<BR>
"Well, maybe they can manipulate gravity in the future." Okay. If I try<BR>
really, really hard, I can, maybe, see an application of 'contra-grav'<BR>
(manipulating gravity that already exists) -- but *nothing* resembling<BR>
gravity without the presence of acceleration or a massive body. Sorry.<BR>
Anyone care to challenge that with physics? Anyone?<BR>
<BR>
How about an easier question: can anyone tell me why 'Star Trek-style'<BR>
shipboard gravitics is necessary to the gist, playability, or story line of<BR>
the Traveller RPG?<BR>
<BR>
At this point, some may want to ask "Why the hell are you playing Traveller,<BR>
then? Play something else if you don't like canon! Make your own house<BR>
rules!" All valid. I have no defence. I think Trav is the best RPG by a<BR>
light-year, else I wouldn't play it -- plenty of other RPGs out there. I do<BR>
make house rules, of course. But I just want to know why so many other<BR>
players use this blatant infusion of fairy-dust in their sci-fi. Is it<BR>
because you never had occasion to think or care about it? That's cool, can't<BR>
argue with that.<BR>
<BR>
But some players not only think about it, they exert great effort in<BR>
attempting to understand it, and fabricating a 'science' around it. Is it a<BR>
"I don't like the idea of being aboard a ship without artificial gravity"<BR>
kind of mind set? Or a dogmatic "sola canon, toto canon" point of view? Or<BR>
just plain lack of imagination? (The last I doubt, judging by the thousands<BR>
of excellent and thought-provoking TML posts I've read.)<BR>
<BR>
Please, no one take offence at anything I've written, as none was intended.<BR>
(Except that bit about flying to Heathrow being 'easy.')<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- Hypercleats<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:53:19 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Artist<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Speaking of Traveller Artists...anybody know where Commander Blair Reynolds<BR>
> is these days?<BR>
<BR>
I'd suggest asking Pagan Publishing:<BR>
paganpub@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
since he has done COC related art for them as recently as<BR>
1997. He sometimes goes by Shea Reynolds. AFAIK he is still<BR>
in Fairbanks AK.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:54:17 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Capital Capitol<BR>
<BR>
Capital is "chief" or "head" and refers to capital cities such<BR>
as Washington, D.C.  Capital is the word used for other things<BR>
like the top of a column or money used to finance a business.<BR>
<BR>
Capitol is the building which houses the government.  Probably<BR>
from Capitoline, the hill on which Jupiter's Temple stood in<BR>
Rome and where the Senate met.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 1:37 AM -0400 5/30/00, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>  [Are you sure it says capitol? The Capitol (according to my dictionary<BR>
>>  there's only one) is the building where the US Congress sits.]<BR>
><BR>
>Dictionaries can never be up-to-minute.  Some early American<BR>
>spelled "capital" with an "o", in the days before rigid spelling<BR>
>rules were the norm, and now its a big deal?  Never!  :-)<BR>
><BR>
>bloo<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:52:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>> > Anybody familiar with Bell's inequality experiments? (A summary: if you<BR>
>> > split a photon into two or more less energetic photons, due to the<BR>
>> > angular momentum laws photons travelling in opposite directions will<BR>
>> > have opposite spin. Bell's inequality postulates that if you reverse the<BR>
>> > spin of one photon, the other photon will reverse its spin as<BR>
>> > well--instantaneously, no matter how far away it is.<BR>
><BR>
>> It's not possible to build an FTL communicator with this. Why? Because<BR>
>> measuring the spin of *one* of the phtons doesn't tell you anything<BR>
>> useful.<BR>
><BR>
> Note that the original summary doesn't mention measuring spin, it mentions <BR>
> changing spin (and is, as far as I can tell, an incorrect summary).<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't matter. My point is still valid. While the change of state is<BR>
FTL, you can't use the change to transmit info FTL. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:02:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
>>You still want the fork, btw, because zero gee is an unforgiving environment<BR>
>>to work in.<BR>
><BR>
> The thirty ton cargo container that's heading towards you in zero G keeps on<BR>
> coming in precisely the way that one on Earth doesn't.<BR>
><BR>
> And pushing a thirty ton container by hand is not a quick way to move it<BR>
> anywhere<BR>
<BR>
Well, it's more a case of you *can* push (or pull) containers weighing<BR>
that much (or more!). The propblem is that iy you exerted a force of<BR>
say, 200 newtons, over a distance of a couple of meters, you'll have to<BR>
exert that much force over the *same* distance (or more force over a<BR>
shorter one) to *stop* it. <BR>
<BR>
Alas, as a Heinlein character once said "He'd started it with a pull,<BR>
he thought he could stop it with a shove...". This was describing a<BR>
Darwin Award finalist. (ie someone who did the human race the service<BR>
of eliminating his genes from the gene pool :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:54:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin showed up in his persona as Consul to Ming, ruler of Mongo.<BR>
<BR>
*Please* tell me there's a photo and it's going to be available online?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:49:34 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/30/00 6:22:07 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > I am not sure how o ask a question form this list, I<BR>
>  >  hope I dont screw it up but here it goes. Can anyone<BR>
>  >  tell me what/how protomatter works. I am using it in<BR>
>  >  an alternate timeline, mainly as missile warheads. How<BR>
>  >  much more explosive would this material be that<BR>
>  >  antimatter?  Thanx, Troy<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Protomatter does not exist.  It was a typical piece of Star Trek<BR>
>  technobabble, designed to sound scientific while not actually<BR>
>  referring to anything in the real world.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In other words, as big a bang as you want ;)  <BR>
<BR>
(we use Quantum Protomatter to fuel the everpresent Quantum Power Coupling - <BR>
a QPC is a handy little piece of technojunk if ever there was one!!!)<BR>
<BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:50:50 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/30/00 7:15:31 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
mwhelton@cox-internet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Speaking of Main Cannons...EVERY and I do mean EVERY piece of heavy duty<BR>
>  gear the Japanese have ever shown has had some sort of a MAIN CANNON.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
You say that like its a bad thing.  Since when is being able to fry the <BR>
surface of a planet a drawback <insert Evil Manical GM Laugh here><BR>
<BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:53:02 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: BayCon Photos!!   (was Re: BayCon Party Report)<BR>
<BR>
But of course :)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
<BR>
There will probably be some other online pics from other folks with cameras.<BR>
Since the camera I was useing was digital, it saves a step or two ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 7:55 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Glenn Goffin showed up in his persona as Consul to Ming, ruler of Mongo.<BR>
><BR>
> *Please* tell me there's a photo and it's going to be available online?<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:55:38 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/30/00 12:29:34 PM Central Daylight Time, semo@pil.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   While I don't really think that the two have to be completely <BR>
incompatible,<BR>
>  I imagine that you'd have to do a fair deal of work with respect to<BR>
>  justifying how big, mostly humanoid vehicles developed and why they were<BR>
>  used over what would appear to be more efficient and useful designs.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
While a grav tank might be better in a one on one slugfest, especially with <BR>
battlefield support, a mecha is ideal for "special forces" (ie the PCs in <BR>
most games!) operations, as they are far more versatile - my campaign often <BR>
sees the PCs bringing their smaller units, equipped with "Gunmetals" (blatant <BR>
ripoffs of Macross II Valkyries) going up against vast legions of advanced <BR>
mechanized forces.  The fun begins when they run out of ammo and have to go <BR>
hand to hand with tanks<BR>
<BR>
If you can rationalize the existence of transformable mecha (in our campaign <BR>
we use a more realistic (hah!) version of protoculture, basically an <BR>
ultraminiature power supply, that frees up lots of space for the extra <BR>
systems to transform, and other such technobabble)  anyway, a <BR>
Gunmetal/Valkyrie lets a single pilot fight in space, on the ground, or in <BR>
the air with equal effectiveness, and the ability to pick up different kinds <BR>
of rifle-configuration cannons makes an mecha WAY more versatile than the <BR>
best grav tank, simply been picking up a different gun.  Want Anti-Air?  pick <BR>
up a rapid-fire laser or repeating missile launcher.  Want Anti-Armor?  pick <BR>
up the fusion gun or railgun.  and so on and so forth.  <BR>
<BR>
grav tanks by nature have much greater mobility, but mecha simply have more <BR>
versatility.<BR>
<BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:58:02 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 26 May 2000<BR>
"Talon" <talon@skyenet.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Are these warbots impervious to EMP?  What about Battle Dress?<BR>
<BR>
Battle Dress usually has a layer of superconductive material which would provide<BR>
EMP<BR>
protection similar to a Faraday cage.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
If at first you don't succeed, try not to play Russian Roulette<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:17:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I am not sure how o ask a question form this list, I<BR>
> hope I dont screw it up but here it goes. Can anyone<BR>
> tell me what/how protomatter works. I am using it in<BR>
> an alternate timeline, mainly as missile warheads. How<BR>
> much more explosive would this material be that<BR>
> antimatter?  Thanx, Troy<BR>
<BR>
"Protomatter" is an invention of the writers for Star Trek. There's no<BR>
such thing in Traveller (much less in the real world). If you want to<BR>
introduce it in your Traveller universe, *you* get to detail how it<BR>
works.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I consider it a *bad* idea to use this sort of stuff unless<BR>
you are well versed in stuff like physics, because if you aren't,<BR>
sooner or later you'll get a player who *is* and will either point out<BR>
all the impossibilities involved, or find a way to do things you<BR>
*really* won't like by using real physics in combination with your<BR>
invented stuff. <BR>
<BR>
Traveller already has some holes of this sort (biggest one being that<BR>
thruster plates as described violates conservation of energy and<BR>
conservation of momentum, which means you can turn a simple Scout ship<BR>
into a projectile that'll destroy a planet)<BR>
<BR>
Basicly, inventing "techspeak" stuff to do neat things in a game<BR>
usually turns around and bites you unless you know enough to know if<BR>
it's breaking any real eworld physical (or chemical) laws. <BR>
<BR>
It's *ok* to violate such laws, after all, Jump drive does! It's just<BR>
that you need to *know* when you are breaking them, and what the<BR>
consequences might be. In the case of jump drives, if you went to a<BR>
*lot* of trouble, you could send a messages into the past, maybe even<BR>
get there yourself. But it'd be a *real* pain.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:41:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Request to Famile Spofulam (was: High Speed Lawnmowers)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>> In mail you write:<BR>
>>>> "LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in<BR>
>>>> accelerating lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.<BR>
>>>> A working Tractor beam is expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Jordin has what can only be described as a "strange" sense of<BR>
>>> humor. :-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> and its only ~200 mph :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Perhaps Famile Spofulam can 'improve' on this.  Whaddyathink?<BR>
<BR>
No need. There's actually an *organized sport* of racing the sort of<BR>
lawnmowers you ride. And they are *not* "stock" mowers...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:22:48 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/30/00 10:08:58 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Personally, I consider it a *bad* idea to use this sort of stuff unless<BR>
>  you are well versed in stuff like physics, because if you aren't,<BR>
>  sooner or later you'll get a player who *is* and will either point out<BR>
>  all the impossibilities involved, or find a way to do things you<BR>
>  *really* won't like by using real physics in combination with your<BR>
>  invented stuff. <BR>
<BR>
Unless your players know of that sadistic streak that only comes out when <BR>
they try to take advantage of your lack of knowledge of a particular area.  <BR>
(mention the phrase "polymorphed kobold and a blond wig" to my players and <BR>
you'll get regaled with a chorus of "I'll be good! I'll be good!".  Oh lord <BR>
it's fun being evil)<BR>
<BR>
seriously, even if you're going to use totally "fictional science", simply <BR>
remember that unless their characters hold several doctorates in the subject, <BR>
all their perfect reasoning DOES NOT necessarily mean an idea will work.  <BR>
Sure it SOUNDS good, but they may be missing that one crucial piece of data, <BR>
or part of the equation, which nullifies their otherwise brilliant concepts.  <BR>
<BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:00:06 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics (long)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
>El Numero Uno most malodorous fantasy in Trav: shipboard gravitics. Yes, I<BR>
>know it's canon! That's not the point. Anyone worth their salt in the most<BR>
>rudimentary physics knows that 'gravity' (or the 'sensation' of gravity)<BR>
can<BR>
>only be achieved through acceleration, or a massive body (like a planet.)<BR>
>There is no other way. There is no magic that simply turns gravity on and<BR>
>off at a switch as if it behaved like the electromagnetic force. AND, if<BR>
>there were a manner to provide gravity on board a ship, the ship would<BR>
>suddenly stop whatever maneuvering vector it was on, as it now must haul<BR>
the<BR>
>effective mass of a large body behind it. It does not matter if the body be<BR>
>large or tiny in volume (a planet vs. a micro-black hole, for instance), it<BR>
>still has far more mass that the ship's engines and fuel could possibly<BR>
>move.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, and the argument that a ship without gravitics would be an 'unfriendly'<BR>
>or 'difficult' environment to work in, is merely a lazy cop-out, and shows<BR>
a<BR>
>want of imagination. Sure it's difficult to work in zero, or near-zero,<BR>
G --<BR>
>so what?? I'm sick of seeing 'spacecraft' that looks and operates like<BR>
>atmospheric aircraft flying within a gravity-well. The Star Wars X-wing<BR>
>fighter scenes were more akin to WWII dogfights that anything that would<BR>
>happen in *space*.<BR>
><BR>
>Isn't anyone else tired of playing pseudoscientist, trying to<BR>
>authoritatively answer the difficult questions that inevitably will arise<BR>
>when people are using (and drawing the logical conclusions from) a<BR>
decidedly<BR>
>unscientific and spurious misappropriation of facts that amount to nothing<BR>
>more than a contrived literary device? "Wouldn't it be nice if people could<BR>
>wander about a ship in deep space as if they were on a 747 between<BR>
LaGuardia<BR>
>and Heathrow? Star Trek makes it look so _easy_ to 'go where none have gone<BR>
>before...'" Bah and Humbug.<BR>
><BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
I agree wholeheartedly.  I must say that my initial perceptions were skewed<BR>
by Star Wars when I first started playing, but I am also in favor of not<BR>
utilizing the grav plate tech BS.  I am also not one to care much about the<BR>
canon history stuff.  I use the basic history as a backdrop as far as FFW<BR>
and expansion goes and the political boundaries, but I couldn't care less if<BR>
Norris or anyone else if Sector or subsector ruler or when historically the<BR>
capital changed etc.  That has very little impact generally on running a<BR>
campaign IMTU, at least so far, I have never gotten involved with any<BR>
political intrigue.  I am  older and wiser now, so perhaps these things can<BR>
change, but I think we as GMs care more about it than we as Players.<BR>
<BR>
 I am not really a gearhead but I like to make an effort to stay within the<BR>
mainframe of probable physics, and jump is an acceptable handwave for me<BR>
too.<BR>
<BR>
I guess that is my hope for T5, that Marc will do away with grav plates and<BR>
have a simple but complex starship design system, that is easy to use and<BR>
has lots of details. <G><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2530<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:26:45 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:26:06 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id XAA82605;<BR>
	Tue, 30 May 2000 23:24:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 30 May 2000 23:24:23 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id XAA82531<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:24:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:24:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005310324.XAA82531@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2530<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2531</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/31/00 4:29:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 31 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2531<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
MIT's Technology Review<BR>
tech review<BR>
Military Rank Titles [Long] (Was Re: [OT] Capital Capitol)<BR>
Ships needed for GTL 9/10 Billion Credit Squadron Game<BR>
Re: T5 and GT<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics (long)<BR>
Re: System Details: How much is enough?<BR>
Re: Starship Construction: What level is simple enough?<BR>
RE: Zirunkarish (sic?)<BR>
Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
K'Kree and the Word of God<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:21:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: MIT's Technology Review<BR>
<BR>
I just got my paws on my first one of these and I must say if you inclined<BR>
to read about tech stuff for the future this is an awesome magazine.  This<BR>
latest issue has stuff about smart glasses, fuel cell technology, medical<BR>
devices using needleless blood testing, implantable GPS transceiver with<BR>
biological monitoring capabilities, spacecraft materials for new design<BR>
shapes and heat resistance, computer speech recognition(editorial),  organ<BR>
tissue engineering using silicon wafers, magnetic RAM, moore's<BR>
law(discussion), molecular computers using nanowire technology, quantum<BR>
computers(getting closer to feasibility, 5 universities are working on it)<BR>
and biological and DNA computing.  All of these are being researched right<BR>
now especially the computers(the issue focuses on computers this time), and<BR>
some are close to developing prototypes.  Amazing stuff!<BR>
<BR>
FYI<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:30:17 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: tech review<BR>
<BR>
FYI<BR>
the URL for  MIT's technology review is www.techreview.com<BR>
should have included it in the previous message, sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:42:50 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Military Rank Titles [Long] (Was Re: [OT] Capital Capitol)<BR>
<BR>
I did a little brief research into the origin of rank<BR>
titles a couple of weeks ago.  I was contemplating<BR>
a method to standardize military ranks across<BR>
services.  I have a draft effort here, which includes<BR>
material from various sources, including Doug Berry's<BR>
Marine Armsman:<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/milranks.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here is what I found:<BR>
- ---------------------------------<BR>
Private: privately hired, i.e., fights for pay<BR>
<BR>
Soldier: from "solidus", a coin, paid servant, fights for pay.<BR>
<BR>
Dragoon: from "dragon", one source refers to a cohort<BR>
fighting under a standard with a dragon in it.<BR>
<BR>
Corporal, from "body", corpus, obsolete French alterations of<BR>
caporal, caporale, capo, caput, head<BR>
<BR>
Sergeant: ultimately from "slave". Thought this one might<BR>
be worth the details for you all.  From dictionary.com:<BR>
Middle English sergeaunte, a common soldier, from Old<BR>
French sergent, from Medieval Latin servins, servient- servant,<BR>
soldier, from Late Latin public official, from Latin, present<BR>
participle of servre, to serve from servus, slave.]<BR>
<BR>
Chief: from "head", caput.<BR>
<BR>
Cadet: from "head".<BR>
<BR>
Ensign:  from "insignia", i.e., standard-bearer.<BR>
<BR>
Lieutenant: 'place holder', available to replace the rank above<BR>
if necessary.<BR>
<BR>
Captain: capo, caput, head<BR>
<BR>
Major: important, greater<BR>
<BR>
Colonel: from "Column", as in leading a column of troops.<BR>
<BR>
Commander/Commodore: same origins.  Co-mander.<BR>
One who gives orders..<BR>
<BR>
Marshal:  "horse-servant", i.e., "groom".  Another interesting<BR>
one.  "Marhaz" (horse, from 'mare') + "'skalkaz" (servant).<BR>
From Germanic sources, to the Franks as "marahskalk",<BR>
via the Normans to England and finally recorded as the<BR>
surname "Marshal" in 1218.  Defined as "high officer of the<BR>
royal court" in Henry III's English language proclamation of<BR>
1258.<BR>
<BR>
General: probably "king", possibly "head of family".<BR>
"general" - "public", "gener-" - "kind", "Gen-" - "kin",<BR>
to kin, kindred, and king (cyning, kuning, kunjam)<BR>
<BR>
Admiral: from "admirable". "admire", etc.<BR>
<BR>
Troop: uncertain origin, possible sources:<BR>
Iceland:  Thornorp: hamlet, village<BR>
German: Dorf: a village, in one German dialect: a meeting.<BR>
Norway: Torp: a farm, a crowd.<BR>
<BR>
Mercenary: from "merces", wages, price.<BR>
<BR>
Janissary: from "new braves", "yani" - "new", "chairya" -"brave"<BR>
<BR>
Condottiere: from "conductor", i.e., leader of troops.<BR>
- -----------------------<BR>
<BR>
I have a preference for functional terms, and so like<BR>
Doug's "Armsman" a lot more than Solider, Private, etc.<BR>
<BR>
In the system I'm trying to create, I want all the ranks<BR>
to mean the same in different services, which each<BR>
service retaining unique titles for some ranks (such as<BR>
Marshals in the Marines, Generals in the Army, and<BR>
Admirals in the Navy).<BR>
<BR>
What I want to do is eliminate Army Captains,<BR>
Make only one type of Army Lieutenant (O3)<BR>
and make new titles for Army O1, and O2.<BR>
That way, Lieutenant would mean O3 in all<BR>
services in my system.<BR>
<BR>
So, I'm looking for suggestions.  I'd be especially be<BR>
interested if anyone know of any Vilani terms, or<BR>
titles that might be suitable.  I recently read a sci-fi<BR>
novel that used "Striker" for private and corporal<BR>
type ranks, and I may substitute classes of that<BR>
there for the Army, keeping Doug's Armsmen in the<BR>
Marines.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
P.S., [OT] Capitol and Capital both derive from "head"<BR>
and there didn't used to be spelling rules so these words<BR>
would have been pretty much the same (at or before the<BR>
actual design and planning of the US Capitol).<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Capital is "chief" or "head" and refers to capital cities such<BR>
> as Washington, D.C.  Capital is the word used for other things<BR>
> like the top of a column or money used to finance a business.<BR>
><BR>
> Capitol is the building which houses the government.  Probably<BR>
> from Capitoline, the hill on which Jupiter's Temple stood in<BR>
> Rome and where the Senate met.<BR>
><BR>
> Bolie IV<BR>
><BR>
> At 1:37 AM -0400 5/30/00, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> >Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>  [Are you sure it says capitol? The Capitol (according to my dictionary<BR>
> >>  there's only one) is the building where the US Congress sits.]<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Dictionaries can never be up-to-minute.  Some early American<BR>
> >spelled "capital" with an "o", in the days before rigid spelling<BR>
> >rules were the norm, and now its a big deal?  Never!  :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >bloo<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
> Bolie Williams IV<BR>
> bolie@io.com<BR>
> http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:31:26 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Ships needed for GTL 9/10 Billion Credit Squadron Game<BR>
<BR>
Help!<BR>
<BR>
Like the subject line says, I need GT ship designs for a game of Billion <BR>
Credit Squadron that is going to take place between a coalition of low tech <BR>
Vargr/Corsair worlds and one advanced system.<BR>
<BR>
The fight will take place during year 0, in Subsector B of Corridor.  The <BR>
Navy's system is Durima (Corridor 1205) and the Pirates have been prowling <BR>
the rimward main that includes Kaasu (Corridor 1209) (14 systems, but only <BR>
one is GTL 10).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Navy - Organized, fanatically loyal, relatively inexperienced, fully <BR>
developed industrial base on one GTL 10 planet.  The main goal is the <BR>
protection of their territory (they claim everything within three parsecs <BR>
of Durima) however I think they will see fit to "break the backs" of the <BR>
pirate threat to achieve that goal.  Being descended from pure Vilani <BR>
stock, they will not use any "Rules of War" and will not hesitate to nuke <BR>
civilian centers.<BR>
<BR>
Pirates - Unorganized alliance (run by Vargr), very experienced (but not in <BR>
fleet operations), nearly twelve systems with a varying degree of <BR>
technology.  At least one heavy industrial GTL 9 planet, a balkanized GTL <BR>
10 system, and one or two more distant GTL 9 planets.  All of them <BR>
developing vessels with a Vargr mentality (Corsair/SDB/Merchant ships all <BR>
rolled into one).  The planets have worked against each other for years, <BR>
but now the Navy has shown up and they have formed a loose "Pirates <BR>
Alliance" to destroy it and loot Durima.  They will not nuke the planet <BR>
unless it is necessary for their survival.  The Vargr want to add it as <BR>
another subject world.  The Pirates are mostly Solomani that have had Vargr <BR>
overlords for hundreds of years.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I forsee that I am going to be writing up a lot of different ships to wage <BR>
the war, however if anyone wants to help out I would be more than <BR>
grateful.  If anything, having a variety of people giving me designs for <BR>
the pirate's side will help draw out the chaotic nature of their fleet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I have yet to determine if this is going to be a Billion or Ten Billion <BR>
Credit Squadron game, but it is definitely not going to exceed those <BR>
numbers.  I think. ;)<BR>
<BR>
The ultimate goal is that this game will take place during the next game <BR>
convention I show up to.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 00:36:18 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:59:34 -0700<BR>
>From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
>Subject: T5 and GT<BR>
><BR>
>Since we have Gurps Traveller is there a need (or desire) for T5 (or T4.1)<BR>
??  Why should there<BR>
>be a T5 ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The short answer is...<BR>
<BR>
Because not everybody likes the GURPS rules.<BR>
<BR>
And my long answer is...<BR>
<BR>
But the primary reason there is a need for T5 (even among those<BR>
who prefer Gurps as a rule system) is to perpetuate the Traveller<BR>
Tech Paradigm. Gurps TL's squash the high end of Traveller's<BR>
tech scale into too few TL's. This means that equipment designed<BR>
under Gurps will show less variety than equipment designed<BR>
using any other Traveller system. As long as gamers stick to<BR>
vehicles and starships reverse engineered from previous<BR>
incarnations of Traveller this does not become a problem<BR>
but once origional material is created (unless the creator takes<BR>
pains to build to a specific TTL as opposed to the more generic<BR>
GTL) the equipment created will diverge from equipment designed<BR>
in Traveller. And if the underlying technology is different the society<BR>
that makes use of that equipment will differ as well.<BR>
<BR>
My point being that T5 will be Traveller incarnate wheras Gurps Traveler<BR>
can never be beter than an emulation.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
Spokesmodel for the Commitee for Real Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:16:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> El Numero Uno most malodorous fantasy in Trav: shipboard gravitics. Yes, I<BR>
> know it's canon! That's not the point. Anyone worth their salt in the most<BR>
> rudimentary physics knows that 'gravity' (or the 'sensation' of gravity) can<BR>
> only be achieved through acceleration, or a massive body (like a planet.)<BR>
> There is no other way. There is no magic that simply turns gravity on and<BR>
> off at a switch as if it behaved like the electromagnetic force. AND, if<BR>
> there were a manner to provide gravity on board a ship, the ship would<BR>
> suddenly stop whatever maneuvering vector it was on, as it now must haul the<BR>
> effective mass of a large body behind it. It does not matter if the body be<BR>
> large or tiny in volume (a planet vs. a micro-black hole, for instance), it<BR>
> still has far more mass that the ship's engines and fuel could possibly<BR>
> move.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you are making unfounded assumptions. There are ways to<BR>
create "normal" g-forces using very little mass (well, compared with a<BR>
planet).<BR>
<BR>
And there may be ways to create fields that produce gravity like<BR>
effects (or even real gravity) in limited areas. the required<BR>
space-time geometries look odd, but they don't appear to be<BR>
*impossible. Ditto for localized areas of "zero gravity" (just watch<BR>
out for edge effects!).<BR>
 <BR>
> Oh, and the argument that a ship without gravitics would be an 'unfriendly'<BR>
> or 'difficult' environment to work in, is merely a lazy cop-out, and shows a<BR>
> want of imagination. Sure it's difficult to work in zero, or near-zero, G --<BR>
> so what?? I'm sick of seeing 'spacecraft' that looks and operates like<BR>
> atmospheric aircraft flying within a gravity-well. The Star Wars X-wing<BR>
> fighter scenes were more akin to WWII dogfights that anything that would<BR>
> happen in *space*.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, thruster plates are just a bit much. And while something<BR>
*vaguely* similar is possible that obeys conservation laws, the<BR>
performance is nothing like the books (energy requirements go up<BR>
*rapidly* with velocity).<BR>
<BR>
> Does it make it easier for people to identify with their character? Do they<BR>
> like it because they can imagine the shipboard furniture better? Is it<BR>
> because they don't much cotton to the esthetics of null-G, or protective<BR>
> acceleration 'couches?' Our idea of the incredible inconveniences of<BR>
> null/hyper-G probably wouldn't be quite as bad for characters living in a<BR>
> thousands-year-old space faring culture. Think about it. We design almost<BR>
> all our ideas of spacecraft, unconsciously or otherwise, on the assumption<BR>
> of gravity. No doubt because we live in a thousands-year-old culture of<BR>
> being on the surface of a planet.<BR>
<BR>
Well, battle gets kinda difficult when repairs aren't practical unless<BR>
you cut your drive back to 1 or 2 gees. Doing repairs under higher<BR>
acceleration is going to be *way* to difficult to be practical.<BR>
<BR>
> So, just orient your maneuver drives perpendicular to the floor plan and do<BR>
> a lot of 1-G travel - thus allowing all aboard to exist as if in an<BR>
> earth-like gravity-well. Make the floors and ceilings interchangable as the<BR>
> ship turns about for "deceleration."<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, you just made a common mistake (due, no doubt, to being a planet<BR>
dweller). When you decelerate, you have to flip the ship end for end,<BR>
(unless you have a second main drive in the nose, or use a non-reaction<BR>
drive of some sort). Which means the acceleration *relative to the<BR>
deck* is in the same direction.<BR>
<BR>
> And it doesn't take very long for a<BR>
> vessel accelerating at 1-G to reach incredible velocities. In case of a real<BR>
> hurry, or evasive maneuvers, they can simply climb into protective stations<BR>
> -- not too much for the whole crew to do during such extreme acceleration<BR>
> anyway, especially considering that the 'enemy' must operate under the same<BR>
> laws of physics as you do. Yes, this will mean a larger role for the ship's<BR>
> computer, and the increasing irrelevance of a human pilot skill, depending<BR>
> on the size of the ship and its maneuver/agility potential -- but that seems<BR>
> in line with the nature of technology and computers anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> "Well, maybe they can manipulate gravity in the future." Okay. If I try<BR>
> really, really hard, I can, maybe, see an application of 'contra-grav'<BR>
> (manipulating gravity that already exists) -- but *nothing* resembling<BR>
> gravity without the presence of acceleration or a massive body. Sorry.<BR>
> Anyone care to challenge that with physics? Anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Sure. Check out any of a number of articles by Dr. Robert Forward. You<BR>
can get gravity-like effects from moving high density matter at very<BR>
high speeds along certain types of path. Or just use flat plates of<BR>
very high density matter to produce a field of the desired strength. In<BR>
case you weren't aware, the field from a flat plate (except near the<BR>
edges) has *no* decrement (ie it's the same strength at any distance<BR>
that doesn't approach the radius closely) and the magnitude of the<BR>
force depends on the *density* and *thickness* of the plate.<BR>
<BR>
These are several other tricks are possible using Newtonian and/or<BR>
Einsteinian physics. <BR>
<BR>
If we get a unified field theory, many things may be possible that we<BR>
can't imagine how to do now.<BR>
<BR>
> How about an easier question: can anyone tell me why 'Star Trek-style'<BR>
> shipboard gravitics is necessary to the gist, playability, or story line of<BR>
> the Traveller RPG?<BR>
<BR>
It avoids dealing with folks getting thrown around during combat for one.<BR>
And makes *doing* anything during combat possible. Well, doing anything<BR>
other than sit in the accel tank and flip switches. <BR>
<BR>
Also, stuff like aircars and artificial gravity are part and parcel of<BR>
the sort of stories that Traveller is based on.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I *do* dislike the ships with the floors laid out parallel to the<BR>
axis of acceleration. That's *asking* for trouble. I don't care *how<BR>
advanced you are. Things will fail. Especially when folks start<BR>
shooting at you.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:42:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: System Details: How much is enough?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In Traveller, we have levels of detail about worlds,<BR>
> depending on how important that world is.  Thus the system<BR>
> is scalable, digestible in small chunks, and (beyond the<BR>
> bare bones) very flexible indeed.<BR>
><BR>
> (1) Barebones<BR>
><BR>
> Regina   1910  A788899-C A Ri       703 Im  F7 V M8 D M6 V<BR>
><BR>
> That's the skeleton.  If you're travelling there, you'll <BR>
> know what you're probably heading toward.  If you can read<BR>
> the UWP.  This is easily rendered into text, as we can<BR>
> see with GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the *real* barebones version of that looks like this:<BR>
<BR>
Regina   1910  A788899-C A Ri      Im<BR>
<BR>
That's what the original rules used, for a *long* time, as well as some<BR>
of their successors.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:26:45 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph Kimball" <jekimball@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction: What level is simple enough?<BR>
<BR>
I am curious to see your OT bunny trails.  Do they have something to do with<BR>
penguins? <G><BR>
<BR>
No need to miss Book 2 starship creation.  The rules still exist, and work<BR>
fine for what they were designed for.  I for one created a B2 ship fairly<BR>
recently (actually a reverse engineering of a ship created via a different<BR>
ruleset).  B2 is elegant in a way that the later design rules are not.<BR>
However, I have enjoyed each of the different design rules as they came.  I<BR>
actually find the GT 'modular' design system to be about midway between B2<BR>
and HG in complexity - fairly easy to do by hand/calculator, but nice to do<BR>
by spreadsheet.<BR>
<BR>
HGv1 has a revered place on my Traveller shelf, because it was the first<BR>
system I designed large numbers of ships using.<BR>
<BR>
- - Joseph<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:02:26 -0700<BR>
> From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
> Subject: Starship Construction: What level is simple enough?<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks so far for the responses.  As usual, I'm tempted<BR>
> to go down bunny trails.  I'll save that for another<BR>
> post.<BR>
><BR>
> I know that Book 2 is not the answer; however it has a<BR>
> format I like and miss.  I also agree that it is<BR>
> important to have a consistent, common basis for all<BR>
> tech Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
> Now it looks like I have a beef with MT/TNE/FFS... and<BR>
> maybe that's so.  One Traveller, a friend of Colin's,<BR>
> told me about High Guard version 1, and how it had some<BR>
> good ideas that the revision threw out.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:26:31 +0200<BR>
From: Mark Seemann <mark.seemann@rainier.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Zirunkarish (sic?)<BR>
<BR>
Tue, 30 May 2000 18:57:12 EDT GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Anybody out there remember if a symbol was ever created for <BR>
> Zirunkarish<BR>
>  (sic?) and if so, where it might be found?<BR>
<BR>
All Imperial megacorporations (including Zirunkariish) had logos created for<BR>
them and published in The MegaTraveller Journal #3, pp. 18-24. The one for<BR>
Zirunkariish is on p. 22.<BR>
<BR>
I have scans available of them all...<BR>
<BR>
Mark Seemann<BR>
Solutions Developer, MCSD, MCP+SB<BR>
Rainier Technology A/S<BR>
Lautruphoj 1-3<BR>
DK-2750 Ballerup<BR>
Phone: (+45) 70 25 50 50<BR>
Mobile: (+45) 26 72 50 55<BR>
Email: mark.seemann@rainier.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 04:25:10 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:17 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> It's *ok* to violate such laws, after all, Jump drive does! It's just<BR>
> that you need to *know* when you are breaking them, and what the<BR>
> consequences might be. In the case of jump drives, if you went to a<BR>
> *lot* of trouble, you could send a messages into the past, maybe even<BR>
> get there yourself. But it'd be a *real* pain.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Could you drop me an email and explain how this would work?  And if it could<BR>
happen by 'accident'?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:43:35 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: K'Kree and the Word of God<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au> wrote:<BR>
  <BR>
Lewis Roberts wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> The Word preaches that believers should help those less fortunate than<BR>
>> themselves, and the Word has many charitable organizations which help the<BR>
>>homeless, the mentally ill, and distraught.  Followers of the Word must tithe<BR>
>> 10% of their income.  The Word uses this money in its charitable activities and<BR>
>> to spread the Word.  Followers of the Word may not eat of the flesh of animals<BR>
<BR>
>Before the collapse had the Word spread into K'kree space? after? what would thy<BR>
>think? If my modeling of K'kree thought is correct, a strongly hierarchical religon<BR>
>preaching vegetarianism would probably appeal strongly to them. The missionaries<BR>
>would probably be a group rather than an individual though.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
I hadn't thought of that.  I imagine that missionaries hadn't gotten into the<BR>
2000 Worlds.  The K'Kree are pretty xenophobic, and would make it difficult for<BR>
aliens to wander about their territory.  I could see a few missionaries getting<BR>
to Gateway and Crucis Margin sectors, where there are small K'Kree settlments<BR>
outside of the 2000 Worlds.  These K'Kree might eventually spread the religion<BR>
into the 2000 Worlds.  Any K'Kree who encountered a member of the Word of God,<BR>
would probably conclude that there are at least a few civilized humans, and<BR>
maybe they won't have to exteriminate all humans.  <BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 04:01:33 -0700<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/30/00 10:16 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, you are making unfounded assumptions. There are ways to<BR>
> create "normal" g-forces using very little mass (well, compared with a<BR>
> planet).<BR>
<BR>
How? How much G is 'normal' in this context -- and how to achieve it with<BR>
only the gravity of the ship's mass to work with?<BR>
<BR>
> And there may be ways to create fields that produce gravity like<BR>
> effects (or even real gravity) in limited areas. the required<BR>
> space-time geometries look odd, but they don't appear to be<BR>
> *impossible. Ditto for localized areas of "zero gravity" (just watch<BR>
> out for edge effects!).<BR>
<BR>
How is this field created? Are you assuming the existence of gravitons? How<BR>
do you harness their power, and focus their effect? Newton believed that<BR>
gravity was a 'force' like that of electricity. We now know it to be the<BR>
4-dimentional, noneuclidean topography of space-time. :) At least we think<BR>
we do.<BR>
  <BR>
> Well, battle gets kinda difficult when repairs aren't practical unless<BR>
> you cut your drive back to 1 or 2 gees. Doing repairs under higher<BR>
> acceleration is going to be *way* to difficult to be practical.<BR>
<BR>
I agree.<BR>
<BR>
But this doesn't speak to my point. I do not believe that this makes<BR>
grav-plates *necessary* to the game, just highly convenient. Of course, the<BR>
ability to exist without life-support would be convenient, too.<BR>
 <BR>
>> So, just orient your maneuver drives perpendicular to the floor plan and do<BR>
>> a lot of 1-G travel - thus allowing all aboard to exist as if in an<BR>
>> earth-like gravity-well. Make the floors and ceilings interchangeable as the<BR>
>> ship turns about for "deceleration."<BR>
> <BR>
> Sorry, you just made a common mistake (due, no doubt, to being a planet<BR>
> dweller). When you decelerate, you have to flip the ship end for end,<BR>
> (unless you have a second main drive in the nose, or use a non-reaction<BR>
> drive of some sort). Which means the acceleration *relative to the<BR>
> deck* is in the same direction.<BR>
<BR>
Aha! You got me! A-duh. :)<BR>
 <BR>
>> but *nothing* resembling<BR>
>> gravity without the presence of acceleration or a massive body. Sorry.<BR>
>> Anyone care to challenge that with physics? Anyone?<BR>
> <BR>
> Sure. Check out any of a number of articles by Dr. Robert Forward. You<BR>
> can get gravity-like effects from moving high density matter at very<BR>
> high speeds along certain types of path. Or just use flat plates of<BR>
> very high density matter to produce a field of the desired strength.<BR>
<BR>
This all sounds perfectly reasonable (and educational!) But the key phrase<BR>
that strikes me in the above paragraph is: "high density" -- which is no<BR>
different that what I am saying. You need acceleration or high density (or,<BR>
in a slightly different vernacular, a massive body) in order to realize<BR>
gravity (or gravity-like effects). My problem is with the idea of turning on<BR>
'gravity' like a light bulb.<BR>
 <BR>
> In case you weren't aware, the field from a flat plate (except near the<BR>
> edges) has *no* decrement (ie it's the same strength at any distance<BR>
> that doesn't approach the radius closely) and the magnitude of the<BR>
> force depends on the *density* and *thickness* of the plate.<BR>
<BR>
Same strength at *any* distance? What about the inverse square law?<BR>
<BR>
> There are several other tricks are possible using Newtonian and/or<BR>
> Einsteinian physics.<BR>
<BR>
Do any of these 'tricks' resemble anything like grav plates?<BR>
<BR>
> If we get a unified field theory, many things may be possible that we<BR>
> can't imagine how to do now.<BR>
<BR>
No doubt about that. I was assuming a working theory of quantum gravity<BR>
(GUT) in order to even get to 'contra-grav.'<BR>
 <BR>
>> How about an easier question: can anyone tell me why 'Star Trek-style'<BR>
>> shipboard gravitics is necessary to the gist, playability, or story line of<BR>
>> the Traveller RPG?<BR>
> <BR>
> It avoids dealing with folks getting thrown around during combat for one.<BR>
> And makes *doing* anything during combat possible. Well, doing anything<BR>
> other than sit in the accel tank and flip switches.<BR>
<BR>
You only have to sit in an accel tank during the actual acceleration blast,<BR>
or a more creative suit (or portable accel couch) can be devised to protect<BR>
the delicate humans. Or, even, an invasive approach toward increasing the<BR>
internal pressure of their bodies, etc. Multi-gee evasive maneuvers wouldn't<BR>
have as devastating effect on, say, a person in a protective 'suit' within a<BR>
highly pressurized tank of liquid. Hell, since a space vessel must be<BR>
'airtight' anyway, why keep it filled with earth-like atmosphere and<BR>
pressure? During a General Quarters alert, the ship can be 'flooded' and<BR>
superpressurized (the crew, of course, is in their battledress/vacc suits by<BR>
then, or no need for a court-martial...) Plus, at high enough tech,<BR>
shipboard contra-grav (mitigating the effect of extreme acceleration) could<BR>
seriously soften the blow.<BR>
 <BR>
> Also, stuff like aircars and artificial gravity are part and parcel of<BR>
> the sort of stories that Traveller is based on.<BR>
<BR>
I do not believe this. Air-rafts and other common Traveller grav vehicles<BR>
are contra-grav. No reason for them not to be. I have yet to come across a<BR>
Traveller story that requires the existence of a device that can create the<BR>
effect of a gravity well in the absence of nearby mass and/or acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
Some of these ideas seem silly, sure. Who wants to put their character in a<BR>
pressurized tank (or turn their ship into one), when we've been getting<BR>
along just fine with 'faking it?' Well, to me anyway, the idea of a more<BR>
realistic approach to gravity does not take the fun out of the game. To the<BR>
contrary, pasting the magical conveniences of artificial gravity onto the<BR>
game simply makes it more mundane. As if travelling in 'deep space' is no<BR>
different than walking around in a modern office building here on earth,<BR>
with all the amenities -- except it always looks like 'night' out the<BR>
windows. Big deal. What is wrong with firing up those creative synapses?<BR>
This a problem that is real, and there can be much entertainment in finding<BR>
solutions and workarounds for it. But when you can just punch a button and<BR>
- -- voil! -- gratis gravity! It's an easy out.<BR>
  <BR>
> BTW, I *do* dislike the ships with the floors laid out parallel to the<BR>
> axis of acceleration. That's *asking* for trouble. I don't care *how<BR>
> advanced you are. Things will fail. Especially when folks start<BR>
> shooting at you.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, yes, and furthermore, yes! I would very much like to see an artist's<BR>
rendition or a deckplan that takes these matters into consideration -- and<BR>
is not based on earth-vessels! Boots have magnetic soles (or, at least<BR>
velcro), there are plenty of things to grab onto, and railings to assist in<BR>
movement at low-G, everything can be designed properly if some thought is<BR>
put into it. Given a large enough radius, spinning a vessel would solve many<BR>
problems (and create brand new ones to overcome, oooh goody!) It's just that<BR>
we are so used to designing these things as if they will always stay parked<BR>
on the surface! Why play a game of high adventure in space, and leave out<BR>
some of the most immutable characteristics of space travel? Why not just<BR>
fill the void with air, while we're at it? Maybe add a few elves...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 04:25:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
At 06:54 PM 5/30/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> Glenn Goffin showed up in his persona as Consul to Ming, ruler of Mongo.<BR>
><BR>
>*Please* tell me there's a photo and it's going to be available online?<BR>
<BR>
Jesse's stuff is up at <BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
<BR>
and has a photo of the Consul cedeing certain basing rights in the face of<BR>
a determined Scout/Army negotiating team.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2531<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 07:29:24 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 07:28:52 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id HAA01309;<BR>
	Wed, 31 May 2000 07:28:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 31 May 2000 07:25:27 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id HAA01002<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 07:25:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:25:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005311125.HAA01002@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2531<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2532</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/31/00 10:18:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 31 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2532<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
GT Module Idea Requet for comments<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: T5 and GT<BR>
Re: Request to Famile Spofulam (was: High Speed Lawnmowers)<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
Living Expenses<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
Re: We Don`t Need No Steenking Xboats<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] (Was Re: [OT] Capital Capitol)<BR>
Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Protomatter?<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:04:36 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>...I'm pretty sure it is talking about Regina's early days, back when it<BR>
>>became a center for a number of surrounding worlds BEFORE they all joined<BR>
>>the Imperium _en bloc_. It is quite plausible that Regina did become a<BR>
>>capital quite early.<BR>
> <BR>
>Possibly, the full sentence is "Major settlements were in place <BR>
>in this subsector very early in the history of the Marches; <BR>
>Regina (19190) quickly established itself as a trade center <BR>
>and the capital."<BR>
<BR>
As I said: "very early in the history of the Marches". This implies a time<BR>
before Regina was even part of the Imperium.<BR>
  <BR>
>As I said the sentence itself can be read as meaning subsector capital not<BR>
>sector capital _but_ the only other Imperial subsector whose capital is<BR>
>mentioned, Villis, explicitly says subsector capital. I see this as a<BR>
>distinction YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
I find that argument over-subtle. If it was a question of two equally likely<BR>
options, I would certainly let myself be influenced by such a subtle<BR>
distinction (I have before). But as I think the two options differ very much<BR>
in likelihood, I do not. <BR>
<BR>
>>The Regina Cluster didn't join the Imperium until 250. <BR>
> <BR>
>The SMC states [p 19] that Ruie was "presented with the opportunity to join<BR>
>the Imperium in 235". If Ruie which is right next to Regina was offered<BR>
>membership in 235 than I suspect Regina was also offered membership around<BR>
>or before 235. Thus I think that the 250 date was the date by which all of<BR>
>the cluster (except Ruie) had joined the Imperium. Therefor I would place<BR>
>Regina's joining slightly before 250.<BR>
<BR>
According to _Travellers' Digest #18, p. 23, Regina joined the Imperium<BR>
in 250 along with six neighboring worlds. Settlement maps show a cluster of<BR>
17 or 18 worlds (I forget the exact number) in 300. Evidently the Regina<BR>
Cluster joined in drips and draps over those 50 years. Or possibly some<BR>
worlds joined before and some after. Maybe 'Regina and six other worlds'<BR>
refers to a small pocket empire headed by Regina. Maybe all the worlds in<BR>
the cluster were offered membership in 235 and some accepted quicker than<BR>
others.<BR>
<BR>
>A planet can be established as subsector capitol before said subsector<BR>
>actually joins the Imperium. [See District 268 of which the text says<BR>
>"As a district, its worlds are not members of the Imperium, but they do<BR>
>receive Imperial protection. Imperial affairs are administered from Glisten<BR>
>(2036) although a token capital is maintained at Mercator." If a subsector<BR>
>not in the Imperium can have an Imperial capital than why can't a sector?<BR>
<BR>
I interpret the token capital at Mertactor to be the capital for all<BR>
Imperial worlds in District 268. Since there are only 2 of those it is<BR>
no wonder it is a token capital.<BR>
<BR>
Besides that, the Imperium has always been hung up on the sector/subsector<BR>
system. I see nothing strange about Imperial bureaucrats assigning the<BR>
label 'subsector capital' to the most important world in a subsector even<BR>
if there is no political reality behind it.<BR>
<BR>
>>...subsector governments are said to have considerable autonomy<BR>
> <BR>
>Traditionally foreign affairs has been one of the areas that 'federal' type<BR>
>governments keep to themselves. <BR>
<BR>
But the Imperium is a feudal structure. That means that the Emperor delegates<BR>
his powers to his chief noblemen, foremost among them his dukes (and now<BR>
also his archdukes).<BR>
<BR>
>I don't think it is in the best interests of the Imperium to let the Zhodani<BR>
>have too many consulates. More consulates = more opportunities for trouble.<BR>
<BR>
I believe the Soviet Union had quite a few consulates in the US. In principle<BR>
the Zhodani could have consulates on every Imperial world and embassies with<BR>
every subsector government.<BR>
<BR>
>If their were such consulates I think that they would have been closed after<BR>
>the psionics suppressions. <BR>
<BR>
Just as the Soviet consulates were closed during the Cold War?<BR>
<BR>
>Given that two ninth's of the Zhodani population are trained psionicists<BR>
>and Imperial citizens have been known to spontaneously lynch suspected<BR>
>psionicists I'm not sure its in the Zhodani's best interests as well.<BR>
<BR>
I'm 99% sure that JTAS#24 had an Amber Zone that involved a Zhodani embassy<BR>
(or maybe it was just a consulate) in one individual country on Aramanx.<BR>
I'll check when I get home. <BR>
<BR>
>>I suppose you mean that after the 5FW Norris was the most senior DUKE in the<BR>
>>sector. That is not true. He may have been (almost certainly was) the most<BR>
>>popular duke, but with nobility 'senior' means 'established earlier' and<BR>
>>that does not change. <BR>
> <BR>
>It does in Traveller. Traveller canon states that "generally one Duke within<BR>
>a sector rises to power and comes to be the sector duke, who is the ruler of<BR>
>that sector" [MT Imp Enc. p 15, Nobles entry].<BR>
<BR>
And how do you think the sector duke becomes sector duke? I think the Emperor<BR>
selects one of the subsector dukes. And I think that he would quite naturally<BR>
select a prominent one.<BR>
<BR>
>The text does not indicate that the sector dukedom is hereditary therefore<BR>
>the fact that the Duchy of Mora was established before the Duchy of Regina<BR>
>is irrelevant. <BR>
<BR>
The text doesn't say it isn't either. I do believe that the Emperor has the<BR>
theoretical right to strip a sector duke of his powers, but I certainly<BR>
also think he would excercise that power with discretion. Changing the<BR>
sector duke arbitrarily would be a certain way to antagonize the former<BR>
sector duke.<BR>
<BR>
>What I am suggesting is that after he did so well in the Fifth Frontier War<BR>
>Norris came to be the sector Duke." <BR>
<BR>
There is no canonical evidence to support that notion. No TNS newsbriefs<BR>
announcing that Norris had been appointed sector duke. It's negative<BR>
evidence which is always suspect, I know, but it does seem to be the sort<BR>
of news that would have made its way into a TNS newsbrief.<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU Delphine did not take this well and this is a big part of the<BR>
>personality conflict between Delphine and Norris.<BR>
<BR>
My take on Delphine and Norris' relationship is that they don't like each<BR>
other personally, but they respect each other enough to work together.<BR>
Certainly I don't think Delphine actively resents Norris. The hoax Norris<BR>
pulls off in the OTU is far too transparent for him to dare pull it without<BR>
the prior support of the chief nobles of the Domain.<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover since the text states that "_generally_ one Duke rises to power it<BR>
>seems possible that the Spinward Marches did not have a sector duke before<BR>
>the 5FW.<BR>
<BR>
There's still the whole arcology built on Mora to house the subsector and<BR>
sector government. Arcologies don't get built overnight.<BR>
 <BR>
>>If you mean that he became sector duke after the 5FW, then I disagree<BR>
>>there too. Only the Emperor could promote him to sector duke, and he<BR>
>>didn't. <BR>
><BR>
>The text clearly states that the sector duke "rises to power" not "is given<BR>
>the rank by the Emperor". <BR>
<BR>
You're misinterpreting the text. I see no reason why a subsector duke<BR>
shouldn't 'rise to power' to a point where the Emperor appoints him<BR>
sector duke. I DO see a very good reason why a sector duke can't run<BR>
the sector government without the explicit approval of the Emperor. The<BR>
Imperium is a feudal structure. Those are the Emperor's fleets the<BR>
sector duke orders about.<BR>
<BR>
>Sector Dukedom is apparently achieved by merit, politics, blackmail, etc.<BR>
>If your Traveller Universe has Sector Moots then this is the obvious place<BR>
>for this to occur.<BR>
<BR>
Well, we know that at least one subsector (Regina) has a senate, but I can't<BR>
recall any mention of a sector moot prior to the Regency. However, if there<BR>
is one, I expect it to be advisory only. A sector moot simply wouldn't have<BR>
the authority to appoint a sector duke. That would be a prerogative of the<BR>
Emperor. (A sector moot might _suggest_ a candidate).<BR>
<BR>
>>But Delphine remained sector duke.<BR>
> <BR>
>Where do you get that from? Even if Mora was the sector capitol it does not<BR>
>necessarily follow that Delphine was the sector Duke.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I think it does. I think the two goes together. But I agree that<BR>
in this instance it would be arguing in circles. I'll check my references.<BR>
<BR>
>...since I can find no evidence to suggest that Norris was ever sector duke,<BR>
> <BR>
>Nor are there references to Delphine being sector duke.<BR>
<BR>
I'll get back to you on that.<BR>
 <BR>
>>I think that the simplest explanation is that the references to Regina being<BR>
>>sector capital are mistaken and/or refers to being subsector capital instead.<BR>
> <BR>
>Possibly but as written the references are inconsistent. This<BR>
>suggests to me that the capitol was moved, possibly multiple times.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I don't just accept all references as equally valid. I like my Traveller<BR>
universe to be internally consistent. It's possible that in this case it has<BR>
led me to argue in circles, making me believe Delphine was sector duchess<BR>
because I thought Mora was sector capital and vice versa. But I think not.<BR>
I'll check for references to Delphine being sector duchess and get back to<BR>
you.<BR>
<BR>
>I also note that Regina is (prior to the Third Frontier War) a much better<BR>
>place for sector capital than Mora is. Mora is not very centrally located. <BR>
<BR>
Canonical references disagree with you. Mora is referred to as "The Gateway<BR>
to the Marches". Trade and communication routes from the core enters the<BR>
Marches at Mora. And Mora lies squarely at the root of the Spinward Main.<BR>
That makes Mora very centrally located. It also makes the planet very rich<BR>
and its ruler very powerful. <BR>
<BR>
>Regina prior to the losses in the First, Second and Third wars is fairly<BR>
>central. <BR>
<BR>
I think you've let your enthusiasm for the debate get the better of you.<BR>
Regina is perched on the edge of Imperial space and has always been, even<BR>
when most of the worlds in Vilis and Chronor were Imperial.<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover before the First Frontier War the Imperium extended into Forever<BR>
>Sector [SMC p 18].<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium may have had a few settlements in Foreven, more likely they had<BR>
made some client states. If you'll turn to page 14 of your _SMC_ you'll see<BR>
how far the Imperium extended before 1FW.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:14:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: GT Module Idea Requet for comments<BR>
<BR>
the folks at Maximus Interstellar have undertaken a contract for a <BR>
new class of mining base/factory ships for a Solomani Megacorp.<BR>
<BR>
what I am looking for is ideas for an ore refining/processing module<BR>
there isnt one in GURPS Vehicles Volume 2<BR>
<BR>
the only thing even remotely similar was found in Book 1 of Space <BR>
Opera.<BR>
<BR>
The Stats for it are as follows, worst comes to worst I'll just <BR>
extrapoloate from this.<BR>
<BR>
Ore Processing Module<BR>
60m3<BR>
20T<BR>
100,000 cr<BR>
<BR>
Processes 2D6 tons of raw ore per day<BR>
<BR>
any bright ideas  or suggestions<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:24:11 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
At 10:55 PM -0400 5/30/00, RvKsword@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>grav tanks by nature have much greater mobility, but mecha simply have more<BR>
>versatility.<BR>
<BR>
How is a Mech more versatile than a grav tank?  Transformable mech would<BR>
have space for transforming machinery that could be replaced with multiple<BR>
weapons for different scenarios.  The grav tank can easily attack air<BR>
and ground units and, if the hull is sealed, fly into space.  If you can<BR>
automate a mech so that a single pilot can control it than making a grav<BR>
tank piloted by a single pilot would be easy.  You could also make a<BR>
grav tank with a modular turret which would allow you to switch out<BR>
weapons if you needed to.<BR>
<BR>
In "Hand to Hand" I'd still bet on the grav tank.  Being a nice compact<BR>
shape it can be much tougher than an equally armored mech.  A grav tank<BR>
could ram the mech.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 06:10:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
At 10:55 PM -0400 5/30/00, RvKsword@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>grav tanks by nature have much greater mobility, but mecha simply have more<BR>
>versatility.<BR>
<BR>
Which is a bad thing.  Trust me on this.  You design a combat vehicle to do<BR>
one thing very well, or it is does several things badly.<BR>
<BR>
Take for example the M-1 tank.  It is designed to do one thing: kill enemy<BR>
tanks.  *Everything* in that design was included to produce the best damn<BR>
MBT in the short history of the art.<BR>
<BR>
The M-1 came on the heels of the MBT-70 project.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.clubi.ie/exalted/mbt70.htm<BR>
<BR>
This was the best Army fiasco until the Sgt. York ADA vehicle.  They tried<BR>
to make this system do everything, and it was a bloated wreck that wasn't<BR>
able to do anything that it was supposed to do.<BR>
<BR>
The M-2/3 Bradley is a similar vehicle.  Read "The Pentagon Wars" (or see<BR>
the film) to see how a simple battlefield taxi became a decade long,<BR>
billion dollar money pit.<BR>
<BR>
You design a combat vehicle for one task, and make sure that it has<BR>
everything necessary to perform that task.  That's how you win wars.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:29:19 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
On 30 May 00, at 11:59, Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Since we have Gurps Traveller is there a need (or desire) for T5 (or T4.1) ?? <BR>
> Why should there be a T5 ?<BR>
<BR>
Oh my yes Virginia, there should be a T5. Why?<BR>
<BR>
1) Some of people don't like/choose to use GURPS mechanics.<BR>
<BR>
2) The GURPS TL system does not truely mesh with that of Traveller (and <BR>
this is actually worse in the middle, not at the high end; its proving a major <BR>
problem developing the Interstellar Wars).<BR>
<BR>
3) Some people (eg Me) really liked the underlaying system behind T4 and <BR>
would like to see its problems fixed.<BR>
<BR>
4) Traveller is not just the 3rd Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:32:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Request to Famile Spofulam (was: High Speed Lawnmowers)<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>>> In mail you write:<BR>
>>>>> "LLNL researchers report that they have succeeded in<BR>
>>>>> accelerating lawnmowers to 0.0000003 of the speed of light.<BR>
>>>>> A working Tractor beam is expected shortly."--Jordin Kare<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> Jordin has what can only be described as a "strange" sense of<BR>
>>>> humor. :-)<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> and its only ~200 mph :-)<BR>
>><BR>
>> Perhaps Famile Spofulam can 'improve' on this.  Whaddyathink?<BR>
<BR>
>No need. There's actually an *organized sport* of racing the sort of<BR>
>lawnmowers you ride. And they are *not* "stock" mowers...<BR>
<BR>
First grav pogo sticks, now this...<BR>
<BR>
Why do I have this coffee spluttining vision of fusion powered gravatic<BR>
lawnmowers armed with miniturised battlefield meson guns driven by crack<BR>
assault penguin commandoes? (Mr. DeGraff, this would be a hillarious<BR>
cartoon!<G>)<BR>
<BR>
Close ranged attacks could be made using the insanely fast spinning<BR>
hyperdense blades, perfect for decapitation raids...(YECH!)<BR>
<BR>
Oh the (in)humanity! <BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:34:07 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Some history on rank titles may help clarify your thinking:<BR>
<BR>
Feudal levies had little organization, beyond a simple division into<BR>
"battles" as the situation required. Since most troops served under their<BR>
feudal superiors, specific titles of rank separate from titles of nobility<BR>
were also largely superfluous.<BR>
<BR>
The rise of mercenary forces also created the first post-Roman  military<BR>
unit: the company (literally, the people who are companions, who break<BR>
bread together). Companies had three officers: a captain (the "head"), a<BR>
lieutenant (to "take the place" when needed), and a sergeant-major ("big<BR>
sergeant"). Larger groups picked one captain to be in charge: a<BR>
captain-major (later shortened to just major).<BR>
<BR>
Larger mercenary forces required higher level organization, so they took<BR>
the most important officers and put them in general command of the forces:<BR>
captain general (later just general) , lieutenant general, sergeant-major<BR>
general (later shortened to major general, which is why they rank below<BR>
lieutenant generals).<BR>
<BR>
Still larger forces had to be divided up into separate columns to move<BR>
along the restricted road networks. By this time, the mercenaries had<BR>
become professional soldiers of the king, and so the officer in charge of<BR>
the column was called either a colonel (a "columner") or a coronel (a<BR>
"crown officer") -- nowadays we compromise by spelling it one way and<BR>
pronouncing it the other. When colonels were given command of permanent<BR>
regiments ("disciplined units"), they appointed lieutenants-colonel to do<BR>
their dirty work while they were off schmoozing at court.<BR>
<BR>
When groups of regiments were "brigaded" (thrown) together, the officer in<BR>
charge became a brigadier, and the current structure was complete.<BR>
<BR>
The lowest officer rank in the US Army was originally either an ensign<BR>
(the guy who carried the flag) or (in cavalry units) a cornet (the guy who<BR>
kept an eye on the bugler). When the US Navy was formed, they used *Army*<BR>
ranks -- but since the largest ship was a frigate, the senior-most officer<BR>
was equivalent to an Army captain, followed by lieutenants and ensigns.<BR>
Later as the Navy expanded it became necessary to add intermediate<BR>
"command" ranks: hence commander and lieutenant commander. [The US Navy<BR>
was also heavily influenced by European navies, particularly the British,<BR>
so it's not as clean a story as this indicates.]<BR>
<BR>
Originally, each US Army company had two lieutenants (of equal rank, but<BR>
different seniority). They were referred to as the First Lieutenant and<BR>
the Second Lieutenant. When ensigns and cornets fell out of use, these<BR>
designations became titles, with second lieutenants taking the place of<BR>
ensigns.<BR>
<BR>
The British Army (and Royal Navy?) used to have subalterns ("lowest of the<BR>
low", or something like that) as their lowest officer rank.<BR>
<BR>
"Dragoon", by the way, was the name of a short, heavy-barreled carbine (a<BR>
"dragon") used by mounted infantrymen. After a while, the term came to be<BR>
used for the troops that carried it as well. Since the weapon was quite<BR>
unwieldy and handling it on horseback required considerable strength, the<BR>
Dragoons were generally larger and stronger than any other troops (except<BR>
Grenadiers). This, combined with their mounts, made them the first choice<BR>
for provost duty in the days before organized military police -- hence to<BR>
be "dragooned" is to be hauled off by the cops, usually to do something<BR>
nasty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:41:44 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Living Expenses<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know what the general range of living costs<BR>
are in GURPS: TRAVELLER.<BR>
<BR>
I'm talking, food, housing, accomodation, public<BR>
transport on a heavily populated<BR>
GTL12 world.<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone point me in the right direction.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:30:10 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Christopher Thrash wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Larger groups picked one captain to be in charge: a<BR>
> captain-major (later shortened to just major).<BR>
<BR>
AHA!  The Big Head!<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:55:11 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: We Don`t Need No Steenking Xboats<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/31/00 12:07:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!, LB2NOLA@aol.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< On a completely different subject:  Anyone know where I can pick up a copy <BR>
of <BR>
 DGP's World Builder's Handbook?<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
No, but my local used bookstore has two copies of Grand Census, which in my <BR>
opinion is effectively half of WBH...<BR>
<BR>
Seth (I'm baaack....:-))<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:57:31 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/31/00 12:15:31 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
mwhelton@cox-internet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< A Fixation with size...veddy interesting... >><BR>
<BR>
must be a holdover from the Imperials (IJN; not 3I...). The Nazis and <BR>
Communists were also into mega-engineering. Must be something about <BR>
dictatorships...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:15:14 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/31/00 2:58:39 AM !!!First Boot!!!, RvKsword@aol.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< grav tanks by nature have much greater mobility, but mecha simply have <BR>
more <BR>
 versatility.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
what about ground pressure? I'd take a wide track tank over a mechs' tiny <BR>
foot pads anyday....We also can't forget vehicle size...I'd rather be in a <BR>
tank hull down and showing maybe a meter of turret and main gun, than in a 10 <BR>
meter tall mech...I must admit that I'm VERY biased against mechs as I just <BR>
never liked the concept...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:41:32 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] (Was Re: [OT] Capital Capitol)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/31/00 3:41:16 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< I have a preference for functional terms, and so like<BR>
 Doug's "Armsman" a lot more than Solider, Private, etc.<BR>
 <BR>
 In the system I'm trying to create, I want all the ranks<BR>
 to mean the same in different services, which each<BR>
 service retaining unique titles for some ranks (such as<BR>
 Marshals in the Marines, Generals in the Army, and<BR>
 Admirals in the Navy).<BR>
 <BR>
 What I want to do is eliminate Army Captains,<BR>
 Make only one type of Army Lieutenant (O3)<BR>
 and make new titles for Army O1, and O2.<BR>
 That way, Lieutenant would mean O3 in all<BR>
 services in my system.<BR>
 <BR>
 So, I'm looking for suggestions.  I'd be especially be<BR>
 interested if anyone know of any Vilani terms, or<BR>
 titles that might be suitable.  I recently read a sci-fi<BR>
 novel that used "Striker" for private and corporal<BR>
 type ranks, and I may substitute classes of that<BR>
 there for the Army, keeping Doug's Armsmen in the<BR>
 Marines.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
There are two things you might want to consider. I would first analyze your <BR>
TO+E's and see what LEVELS of ranks you need, BEFORE you consider eliminating <BR>
levels of rank. I see a trend of MORE, not less ranks added as a fighting <BR>
force becomes more technological. As an example, look at 19th century <BR>
infantry NCO ranks. (I'll use the US Army, but most armies were similar...). <BR>
You had the corporal, sergeant, first sergeant (colour sergeant), and <BR>
sergeant major. As armies mechanised, and later computerized, the amount of <BR>
corporal and especially sergeant ranks mushroomed (I can't remember offhand <BR>
how many are available now, so any one who knows could post it....hint, hint).<BR>
<BR>
Officer ranks are a little less confusing, but you still need enough levels <BR>
of rank (again I'll use US army rank as an example). You have three levels: <BR>
"company grade" officer rank (second and first lts., and captain), three <BR>
levels of "field grade" officer rank (major, lt. col. and colonel), and five <BR>
levels of "flag" officer rank (all general grade ranks). Note the overall <BR>
three groupings. Note how it neatly divides the ranks into those who can <BR>
command or be an executive officer in a company, battalion, or larger unit. <BR>
Thus I would design my manuever and support unit structures, and THEN design <BR>
my rank structure in order to see how many levels or rank you need, and what <BR>
each rank command and/or be responsible for.... I would also consider <BR>
dividing my rank structure into command and support (technical expertise, but <BR>
no command authority...).<BR>
<BR>
The second thing I would consider would be to NOT make this TOO sci fi <BR>
exotic, at the expense of "realism" (in quotes as different is OK or even <BR>
good in a sci fi sense, as long as it makes sense). I would also include <BR>
English (sorry Hans...:-( ) translations of any Vilani rank names....<BR>
<BR>
I DO like VERY much your concept of rank names that are functional and/or <BR>
descriptive...Just beware of this trap: Being X is the CO of an armored <BR>
whatever (equivelant to a platoon) and is ranked "platoon leader". Being Y is <BR>
also ranked "platoon leader" but is an exo-atmospheric fighter pilot because <BR>
doctrine dictates that fighter pilots be commissioned officers....<BR>
<BR>
Seth<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bell's Inequality and FTL communication<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Note that the original summary doesn't mention measuring spin, it<BR>
> > mentions  changing spin (and is, as far as I can tell, an incorrect<BR>
> > summary). <BR>
> <BR>
> Doesn't matter. My point is still valid. While the change of state is<BR>
> FTL, you can't use the change to transmit info FTL. <BR>
<BR>
Agreed.  Just pointing out that part of the reason for the suggestion of ftl travel was just incorrect physics.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:04:47 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around tearing out<BR>
arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad mother... (Shut your<BR>
mouth!) I'm just talking about Beowulf! (We can dig it.) Ahem. So anyway,<BR>
there's this surly and burly hero, and somebody decides to name a type of<BR>
free trader after him. A free trader. Where's the sense in that? How did<BR>
this happen exactly? I mean, I suppose Loren could give the "real life"<BR>
version if it's memorable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:13:21 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Protomatter?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 30 May 2000 23:22:48 EDT, RvKsword@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 5/30/00 10:08:58 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Personally, I consider it a *bad* idea to use this sort of stuff unless<BR>
> >  you are well versed in stuff like physics, because if you aren't,<BR>
> >  sooner or later you'll get a player who *is* and will either point out<BR>
> >  all the impossibilities involved, or find a way to do things you<BR>
> >  *really* won't like by using real physics in combination with your<BR>
> >  invented stuff. <BR>
> <BR>
> Unless your players know of that sadistic streak that only comes out when <BR>
> they try to take advantage of your lack of knowledge of a particular area.  <BR>
> (mention the phrase "polymorphed kobold and a blond wig" to my players and <BR>
> you'll get regaled with a chorus of "I'll be good! I'll be good!".  Oh lord <BR>
> it's fun being evil)<BR>
> <BR>
> seriously, even if you're going to use totally "fictional science", simply <BR>
> remember that unless their characters hold several doctorates in the subject, <BR>
> all their perfect reasoning DOES NOT necessarily mean an idea will work.  <BR>
> Sure it SOUNDS good, but they may be missing that one crucial piece of data, <BR>
> or part of the equation, which nullifies their otherwise brilliant concepts.  <BR>
<BR>
It is not so much that your players will begin to question your<BR>
pseudoscience based on their own knowledge or real science; the problem<BR>
arises when you start to contradict yourself or seem unable to provide<BR>
further data on the pseudoscience that flows logically from your initial<BR>
rules.<BR>
<BR>
It is impossible to contradict current real world physics because we are<BR>
living within the model.  Ohm's Law today is exactly the same as it was<BR>
when it was first created.  Don't know Ohm's Law?  You can always look it<BR>
up in text books written by people that know more about the subject than<BR>
you.  How does Ohm's Law integrate with the Wattage?  That's easy.  Someone<BR>
has already done the work and that info is easy to come by.  These formulae<BR>
have been around since electricity was discovered, so you can pretty much<BR>
bet that they work and don't contradict other rules regarding the field of<BR>
electronics.<BR>
<BR>
Pseudoscience is different.  Unless you start compiling notes on all the<BR>
comments you make regarding a specific form of pseudoscience (or do a LOT<BR>
of work prior to game play), what you say today might not be what you said<BR>
a month ago.  Furthermore, there are less surprises in store for a referee<BR>
that uses too much pseudoscience than for one that falls back on real<BR>
science because the laws of physics that rule real life science are tried<BR>
and tested.  Pseudoscience is like a lie that grows exponentially out of<BR>
hand as you continue to twist and dodge to perpetuate the original lie.<BR>
Eventually, you either get caught by someone else smarter than you aiming<BR>
to prove you wrong, or your lie collapses under its own weight as all the<BR>
presence of all loose ends begin to cast doubt on your whole argument.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:16:33 -0300 (ADT)<BR>
From: Brian A Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
<BR>
I'm only going to respond to a bit of this, mostly because most of my<BR>
reference material isn't available from where I'm writing<BR>
(fortunately, my physics notes are available here).<BR>
<BR>
On May 31, Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > In case you weren't aware, the field from a flat plate (except<BR>
> > near the edges) has *no* decrement (ie it's the same strength at<BR>
> > any distance that doesn't approach the radius closely) and the<BR>
> > magnitude of the force depends on the *density* and *thickness* of<BR>
> > the plate.<BR>
> <BR>
> Same strength at *any* distance? What about the inverse square law?<BR>
<BR>
	Ah, well, the inverse square law only applies for point masses (or<BR>
for masses that can be approximated as points, like the Earth if<BR>
you're far enough away). In fact, much like the coulomb force, gravity<BR>
is inverse square for a point, inverse linear for a line, and constant<BR>
for a plane (except at the edges, and not quite even at the centre,<BR>
except for infinitely long lines and planes of infinite area. Still,<BR>
close enough).<BR>
	To use a bit of math (unfortunately my limited artistic ability<BR>
precludes any accompanying diagrams), we'll start with the equation<BR>
for gravity:<BR>
<BR>
	F(g) = G*m1*m2/(r^2) where m1 and m2 are the masses (assumed to be<BR>
points), r is the distance between their centres (or, since they're<BR>
points, between them), and G is the gravitational constant (6.67e-11<BR>
m^3/kg*s^2). From this, F(g) is proportional to r^-2 (inverse square).<BR>
<BR>
	Now, consider a continuous line of such masses. Give the line a<BR>
mass-density of S (no sigma key on this keyboard), with <BR>
S = mass/length. Taking a "test-mass" (point mass, with mass 1kg) at<BR>
some distance r from the line, let A be the angle between the normal<BR>
through the test mass and some other point on the line (it doesn't<BR>
matter which point, at least for the general solution). The angle A<BR>
lets you define a triangle (first badly-done illustration to follow)<BR>
with one side of length r, the angle A, and its opposite side of<BR>
length (x) of r*tan(A).<BR>
<BR>
[Fig. 1]<BR>
<BR>
	|\<BR>
	|A\<BR>
      r |  \<BR>
	|   \<BR>
________|____\______<BR>
	  x<BR>
<BR>
	Thus, for any angle A you can make the simplifying assumption that<BR>
only the mass along the length x (and the counterpart length x along<BR>
an identical triangle reflected in the line r<BR>
0 actually attracts your test mass. Therefore, for your test mass,<BR>
<BR>
	F(g) = G*S*(2*r*tan(A))/r^2	which simplifies to:<BR>
	F(g) = 2*G*S*tan(A)/r		for any angle A. The formula becomes more<BR>
accurate as A approaches pi radians, making tan(a) infinite (remember,<BR>
this is an infinite line of mass), but for any *sufficiently long*<BR>
line of masses it works even for lower values of A, and demonstrates<BR>
an inverse linear relationship re. gravity.<BR>
<BR>
	The plane is almost exactly the same, except that S is mass/area and<BR>
the triangle is a cone instead. Given that the area of the circle at<BR>
the base of the cone (on the plane) is pi*(r*tan(A))^2, the force is<BR>
thus:<BR>
<BR>
	F(g) = G*S*pi*r^2*tan(A)^2/r^2	which simplifies to<BR>
	F(g) = G*S*pi*tan(A)^2<BR>
<BR>
	Note that this value is constant for any given values of S and A, and<BR>
thus explains the earlier comment about planes displaying a constant<BR>
field.<BR>
<BR>
Just a few quick calculations (hope I didn't lose anyone). Note that<BR>
these involve *CLASSICAL* mechanics, without either relativity or<BR>
quantum ANYTHING, it's a close enough approximation for most purposes<BR>
(including shipboard gravity, if you can find the plane).<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2532<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 13:18:57 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 13:18:10 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA15189;<BR>
	Wed, 31 May 2000 13:16:56 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 31 May 2000 13:16:35 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA15082<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005311716.NAA15082@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2532<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2533</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/31/00 12:46:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 31 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2533<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: BayCon Photos!!   (was Re: BayCon Party Report)<BR>
Re: T5 and GT<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re:  Mora or Regina<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
re:  Religon: Word of God<BR>
Re: T5 and GT<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Trolls (was re: T5 and GT)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2532<BR>
The Name:  "Beowulf"<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
ACQ<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:30:46 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
I always assumed that it was in homage to larry Niven's Beowulf Shaeffer.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 1:05 PM<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around <BR>
> tearing out<BR>
> arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad <BR>
> mother... (Shut your<BR>
> mouth!) I'm just talking about Beowulf! (We can dig it.) <BR>
> Ahem. So anyway,<BR>
> there's this surly and burly hero, and somebody decides to <BR>
> name a type of<BR>
> free trader after him. A free trader. Where's the sense in <BR>
> that? How did<BR>
> this happen exactly? I mean, I suppose Loren could give the <BR>
> "real life"<BR>
> version if it's memorable.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:41:49 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Photos!!   (was Re: BayCon Party Report)<BR>
<BR>
ROFL!!!! Bet the sign confused the HELL out of unsuspecting Linux folk<BR>
wandering by... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> But of course :)<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:32:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
Well it seems as if there is a consensus that people want T5.  Does anyone know if this <BR>
game is still in development ?  Or, was it dropped when GT came out ?  <BR>
<BR>
>Sure there should.  GT is a good temporary solution to  keep  the<BR>
>game alive but it ain't the real thing!  :-^<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, I'm being provocative there.  Actually, I like  GT  ...  it<BR>
>has a lot  of  useful  stuff  ...  but  some  of  the  underlying<BR>
>mechanics of the GURPS system are not everybodies "cup  of  tea".<BR>
>I know there are a lot of GURPS fans, and for them GT is a  dream<BR>
>come true (and that's okay) but its not everybodies dream.<BR>
<BR>
(Were you trolling, Robert?)<BR>
I became involved with Traveller in the CT era and dropped out about the time MT was <BR>
released.  MT had a lot of good ideas, but quality control was poor.  I became involved again <BR>
about a year or so ago and bought FFSv2 and signed up for the Trav-Tech ML.  Then I <BR>
unsubscribed and recently I resubscribed to the TML and TTML.  The TTML is extremely light <BR>
these days.<BR>
<BR>
I am working on a Visual Basic program for FFSv2 which will eventually cover the entire book. <BR>
I am mostly finished with the small arms section.  Writing software forces one to look at the <BR>
system in a comprehensive manner and so I have uncovered a lot of ambiguities and <BR>
contradictions.  I have the most up to date errata.  At some point I will post a list of these <BR>
issues.  While I would prefer to post it to the Trav Tech ML that ML seems to be dead.<BR>
<BR>
I don't really know what the term "trolling" means, but I would say no.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:51:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around <BR>
> tearing out<BR>
> arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad <BR>
> mother... <BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't that be he *has* one bad mother?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:57:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
>From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?=<BR>
><Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
<BR>
I actually had my hands on my Finnish dictionary over the<BR>
weekend, but I didn't remember to look up nokkonen.  Have<BR>
you tried babelfish or one of the other online translation<BR>
services.<BR>
<BR>
Nettles are a medicinal herb, as I recall, as well as a<BR>
source of stings.  Of course, poison ivy (Rhus<BR>
toxicodendron) also has medicinal properties.  <BR>
<BR>
Oh -- here's another way to approach the nokkonen/nettles<BR>
connection, if there is one.  What's the scientific name<BR>
for nokkonen?  I don't know what it is for nettles, but<BR>
I'll bet someone else on the list does.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  There is probably a Department of<BR>
Nomenclature within the Ministry of Science that maintains<BR>
standard names for things.  Inasmuch as the Ancients<BR>
scattered biological material around this area of space,<BR>
the situation may well arise that something on Emerald is<BR>
called the baltazoo and something on Regina is known as the<BR>
cape shirter.  The scientific name for both, however, is<BR>
Deuteron laschesis.  They are the same thing.  <BR>
<BR>
Would this system be used only for biological subjects, or<BR>
would geological stuff be included as well?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  Mora or Regina<BR>
<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>Given the mass of contradictory information the simplest <BR>
>explanation I see is that the Sector Capitol was moved. <BR>
>Hence I have provided an explanation for these possible <BR>
>moves which I believe is consistent with the canonical <BR>
>evidence. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
I agree.  Capitals do get moved, but it's usually a big<BR>
deal.  Look at the Moscow/St.Petersburg/Moscow transitions<BR>
of the Russian state.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:03:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
I think the comparison of mecha vs. _grav_ tanks is incorrect.  After all,<BR>
one is a flying vehicle and the other is not.  A comparison between mecha<BR>
and tanks is fairer.  Granted, the tank will still prove to be the simpler<BR>
and therefore better design, but it is much easier to suspend disbelief<BR>
when the comparison is between ground vehicles.  That is why (I think) the<BR>
original poster mentioned grav tech as being the dividing line between<BR>
grav tanks and mechs.  Once you have grav tanks, mechs (assuming they<BR>
can't fly)  clearly lose out.  But mechs vs. ground tanks might have<BR>
advantages. <BR>
<BR>
The most obvious advantage of a mech, assuming you can get a really good<BR>
walking interface, is terrain ability.  A mech can climb rocky slopes,<BR>
jump across ravines or onto/over buildings, etc.  They can also handle<BR>
swamps and bodies of water of limited depth. A tank has more ground<BR>
surface, but the mech can still function when sunk up to a depth equal to<BR>
its leg length and "slog through" mud or water.  A tank might be built<BR>
water-proof so it can run along the bottom, but then it's pretty blind<BR>
while it's down there. <BR>
<BR>
This brings us to the other advantage mech has: Variable height.  A mech<BR>
can stand to look over obstacles or crouch to hide behind them.  Tanks can<BR>
only do effective "fire from cover" with a certain height of cover, mechs<BR>
can do this with a range of heights.  <BR>
<BR>
There is also the versatility issue.  As someone else mentioned, changing<BR>
weapons on a mech with hands is as easy as dropping one and picking up<BR>
another.  And a mech can act to clear roads, dig trenches and do other<BR>
"combat engineering" tasks.  Granted, as Doug (?) mentioned, you're better<BR>
off generally designing combat vehicles for certain single tasks, but that<BR>
may not be the case with better engineering capabilities in the future.  <BR>
<BR>
Finally, mechs are generally portrayed as more maneuverable, able to jump<BR>
side-ways, up or down.  Tanks can't do this.  Whether this is realistic,<BR>
given material strength-to-weight ratios...<BR>
<BR>
Now, all of this is just hand-waving to some degree, but it is<BR>
sufficiently convincing (IMO) to allow play in a mech universe without<BR>
snapping my suspension of disbelief.  This is especially the case with<BR>
smaller mechs (a la Heavy Gear*). The really big monsters (a la Battle<BR>
Tech) I don't really like. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, my overall favorite "future tank" is the wonderful "spider<BR>
tank" (see, e.g., "Ghost in the Machine").  This combines the terrain<BR>
abilities of a mech with the sturdiness of a tank.  Plus it looks cool!<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Have a good one,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
*Plug:  see dp9.com, it's a great game!  And I playtested the original<BR>
rules!  Not that that makes me biased or anything... :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:50:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around tearing out<BR>
>arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad mother... (Shut your<BR>
>mouth!) I'm just talking about Beowulf! (We can dig it.) Ahem. So anyway,<BR>
>there's this surly and burly hero, and somebody decides to name a type of<BR>
>free trader after him. A free trader. Where's the sense in that? How did<BR>
>this happen exactly? I mean, I suppose Loren could give the "real life"<BR>
>version if it's memorable.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    There is also a second hero named Beowulf Sheafer from Larry Niven's<BR>
Know Universe, IIRC, who was a free trader, & while he was one bad mother,<BR>
he didn't run around & tear the arms off or kicking the snot out of ogres.<BR>
He did go to the center of the Milky Way galaxy.  He has been to every human<BR>
colonized world.  He kicked the snot out of the Kzin.  And, he was a<BR>
merchant spacer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Religon: Word of God<BR>
<BR>
>From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
<BR>
Those were really good posts.  Keep it up!  I, for one,<BR>
would like to know more about church doctrine -- what<BR>
exactly are their beliefs?  What did the original prophets<BR>
actually say in their preaching?  The couple of paragraphs<BR>
that you provided piqued my interest.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:12:08 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: T5 and GT<BR>
<BR>
On 05/31/00 at 10:32 AM,  "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
As far as we know T5 is still being worked on, but we haven't heard from Marc Miller lately.  Marc, would you be so kind as to give the list an update on T5?<BR>
<BR>
>I am working on a Visual Basic program for FFSv2 which will eventually<BR>
>cover the entire book.  I am mostly finished with the small arms section. <BR>
>Writing software forces one to look at the  system in a comprehensive<BR>
>manner and so I have uncovered a lot of ambiguities and  contradictions. <BR>
>I have the most up to date errata.  At some point I will post a list of<BR>
>these  issues.  While I would prefer to post it to the Trav Tech ML that<BR>
>ML seems to be dead.<BR>
<BR>
No, TTL isn't dead, just quiet at the moment. If you post over there about this I'm sure you'll get some responses. Actually, I've been meaning to ask some sensor tech related questions, and I might put them to the TTL.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't really know what the term "trolling" means, but I would say no.<BR>
<BR>
Trolling is to post a controversial message to a group or list in the hopes of creating a storm of replies. The tenor of the message is often calculated to get under the skin of one side or another of some controversy. The Troller's purpose is generally gleeful malise at disrupting a newsgroup of mailing list...sort of a modern day luddite.  <BR>
<BR>
Why it's called trolling is less clear. It might be related to the mythical troll creature, nasty, brutish, and just won't die no matter how many pieces you chop it into. Or it might be related to a fishing technique (fishing for responses) where bait is slowly dragged through the water near the bottom in hopes of attacting a "bite."<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:16:13 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/31/00 at 10:50 AM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>    There is also a second hero named Beowulf Sheafer from Larry Niven's<BR>
>Know Universe, IIRC, who was a free trader, & while he was one bad<BR>
>mother, he didn't run around & tear the arms off or kicking the snot out<BR>
>of ogres. He did go to the center of the Milky Way galaxy.  He has been<BR>
>to every human colonized world.  He kicked the snot out of the Kzin. <BR>
<BR>
Any human that can kick the snot out of Kzin in hand to hand combat, *and* while unarmed really *is* one bad muther!  <BR>
<BR>
>And, he was a merchant spacer.<BR>
<BR>
Merchant?  Was he?  I'd call him an adventurer more than anything else, although he *did* do some trading with the Outsiders didn't he.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:28:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
>> So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around<BR>
>> tearing out<BR>
>> arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad<BR>
>> mother...<BR>
><BR>
>Shouldn't that be he *has* one bad mother?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not been reported<BR>
dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:31:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr and (comfortable) Shoes<BR>
<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
<BR>
>Loren, do Vargr inherit their sweat glands on nose, feet <BR>
>and hands from their canine ansestors, or have they more <BR>
>general radiators like we primates?  Is every handshake <BR>
>with a Vargr like "grabbing a wet fish?"<BR>
<BR>
While I wait with bated breath for Loren's word on this<BR>
subject, I have for years had my own answer:  Shaking hands<BR>
with a Vargr would feel very strange to a human who had<BR>
known only dogs.  Vargr hands are made of the same tissue<BR>
as their paws.  They are usually somewhat less thick and<BR>
rough than their paws.  If you've shaken hands with a dog,<BR>
you know what it feels like.  Now imagine that feeling<BR>
coupled with the wrapping around of fingers in a handshake<BR>
with a human being (except that fingers have the texture of<BR>
paws, and sometimes a little fur between).  That's what it<BR>
feels like. <BR>
<BR>
Whether the palm is sweaty or not depends on what the Vargr<BR>
has been doing.  If the ambient temperature is not very<BR>
high the Vargr has not been exerting him or herself, the<BR>
palm will be dry.<BR>
<BR>
My Cr0.02.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:30:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Justice Hypercleats wrote:<BR>
>You only have to sit in an accel tank during the actual <BR>
>acceleration blast,<BR>
<BR>
How much warning will you have for each blast?<BR>
<BR>
You need to be in it during the entire encounter with<BR>
an enemy craft...but that encounter can start with<BR>
your ship needing to make a sudden, massive course<BR>
change.  It's quite possible that the first knowledge<BR>
you'll have of an impending attack is someone getting<BR>
a sensor lock on your ship.<BR>
<BR>
Was it _Forever War_ that had a ship captain have to<BR>
do evasive maneuvers with an unprepared ship, causing<BR>
hundreds of casualties?<BR>
<BR>
> or a more creative suit (or portable accel couch) can <BR>
> be devised to protect the delicate humans. Or, even, <BR>
> an invasive approach toward increasing the<BR>
> internal pressure of their bodies, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Aesthetics.  Your vision of future space travel is<BR>
more comfortable with cybernetically-enhanced<BR>
spacemen, the Traveller one is happier with grav plates. <BR>
<BR>
> Hell, since a space vessel must be 'airtight' anyway, <BR>
> why keep it filled with earth-like atmosphere and<BR>
> pressure? During a General Quarters alert, the ship <BR>
> can be 'flooded' and superpressurized (the crew, of <BR>
> course, is in their battledress/vacc suits by<BR>
> then, or no need for a court-martial...) <BR>
<BR>
Where is the ship keeping all this liquid during normal<BR>
ops?  Is all your tech built to work - *and be<BR>
repairable* - in a high-pressure liquid environment?<BR>
<BR>
If you want to make space travel uncomfortable,<BR>
inconvenient, and dangerous, that's your campaign.<BR>
The OTU has had space travel for longer than we<BR>
Earthlings have had the wheel, I don't think it's<BR>
unreasonable that it's as difficult to them as a <BR>
ride on a 747 is to us.  The danger and excitement<BR>
is less with riding the ship than it is with the<BR>
planets and the inhabitants you're travelling to see.<BR>
<BR>
Now, as for orientation of decks with respect to<BR>
main thrust:<BR>
<BR>
Big ships that never land should have decks <BR>
perpendicular to the main thrust axis.  This<BR>
generally makes each deck smaller, and thus<BR>
easier to isolate and access.<BR>
<BR>
Little ships that usually land should have decks<BR>
paralell to the main thrust axis, to improve<BR>
access to cargo bays and such.<BR>
<BR>
Middle sized ships should have either orientation,<BR>
depending on how much they interact with small<BR>
craft that land and how it affects the rest of their<BR>
design.<BR>
<BR>
Shipboard gravitics and acceleration compensators are <BR>
such ancient, reliable technology that they'll fail<BR>
long after the drives do, so a failure of them<BR>
shouldn't be a necessary design limiter with<BR>
regard to deck orientation.  As proof, I present<BR>
you with the large number of canonical Traveller<BR>
vessels that would be completely unusuable if<BR>
their onboard gravitics failed... <WEG><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:30:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Trolls (was re: T5 and GT)<BR>
<BR>
Eris Reddoch wrote:<BR>
>Trolling is to post a controversial message to a group or list in the hopes<BR>
of creating a storm of replies. The tenor of the message is often calculated<BR>
to get under the skin of one side or another of some controversy. >><BR>
<BR>
The best trollers get under the skin of *both* sides.<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
>Why it's called trolling is less clear. It might be related to the mythical<BR>
troll creature, nasty, brutish, and just won't die no matter how many pieces<BR>
you chop it into. Or it might be related to a fishing technique (fishing for<BR>
responses) where bait is slowly dragged through the water near the bottom in<BR>
hopes of attacting a "bite.">><BR>
<BR>
It's generally accepted that the term comes from the<BR>
fishing reference, though it has certainly grown to<BR>
include the mythological one.  A troll is trolling in<BR>
the fishing sense, but those aggravated by a troll<BR>
are happy to picture him or her as a smelly,<BR>
lump-skinned creature that lurks in slimy caves under<BR>
bridges.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:40:54 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2532<BR>
<BR>
Christopher Thrash wrote:<BR>
> Some history on rank titles may help clarify your thinking:<BR>
> [excellent material snipped - this answered some questions I didn't even<BR>
> know I had]<BR>
<BR>
Is anyone else remembering the bit from a MASH episode where they slap some<BR>
captain's bars onto Radar's uniform and tell people he's "one of those new<BR>
ranks like sergeant-major or lieutenant colonel -- a corporal-captain!"<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:57:21 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: The Name:  "Beowulf"<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
I bet it's not the hero of the story, but the "Swedish" king's son "Beowulf."<BR>
You see there are two "Beowulves" (?) in the epic "Beowulf."  Oh yeah, the<BR>
second one, not the hero.....yepper you betchie!<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
PS:  Seems like a neat idea to name a fleet of free traders after all the<BR>
characters.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:03:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
>> <BR>
> Of course, my overall favorite "future tank" is the wonderful "spider<BR>
> tank" (see, e.g., "Ghost in the Machine").  This combines the terrain<BR>
> abilities of a mech with the sturdiness of a tank.  Plus it looks cool!<BR>
<BR>
A legged walker vehicle is not obviously a bad idea, its just that you want it to be low to the ground with a small frontal area rather than humanoid.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:09:40 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 31 May 2000, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>     Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not been reported<BR>
> dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
<BR>
No, Beowulf died in his last fight with a dragon.  He's one of those epic<BR>
heroes who becomes even more epic by sacrificing his life in battle.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:13:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Jesse's stuff is up at [deletion] and has a photo of the <BR>
>Consul cedeing certain basing rights in the face of<BR>
>a determined Scout/Army negotiating team.<BR>
<BR>
The consul does seem to have recalled one of the first<BR>
lessons from diplomacy school:  When negotiating with<BR>
humans, no matter how unreasonable or insane, smile.  <BR>
<BR>
In the group shot, the dagger that the consul about to slip<BR>
into the Army negotiator's renal artery is obscured by his<BR>
(Capt. Berry's) right arm, but you might see it if you look<BR>
closely.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn MacRae Goffin, Esquire<BR>
<BR>
Honorary Consul to Terra<BR>
of the Government of the Planet Mongo<BR>
and Its Most Munificent and Protuberant Ruler<BR>
Ming the Merciless<BR>
<BR>
Hail Ming!<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:22:25 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 31 May 2000, Justice Hypercleats wrote:<BR>
> This all sounds perfectly reasonable (and educational!) But the key phrase<BR>
> that strikes me in the above paragraph is: "high density" -- which is no<BR>
> different that what I am saying. You need acceleration or high density (or,<BR>
> in a slightly different vernacular, a massive body) in order to realize<BR>
> gravity (or gravity-like effects). My problem is with the idea of turning on<BR>
> 'gravity' like a light bulb.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, turning gravity on and off like a light bulb is exactly what Dr.<BR>
Forward suggests you can do.  Here's a quote from his book,<BR>
"Indistinguishable From Magic" (and remember, anyone who invokes Clarke<BR>
must be right :) ):<BR>
"The Einstein Theory of Gravity says that gravity behaves the same way as<BR>
electricity.  If you take a mass and the gravity field that surrounds it,<BR>
and move the mass very rapidly, you can create a new field, the<BR>
gravitational equivalent of magnetism.  It is not magnetism, but a<BR>
completely new field.  If you can then cause that new field to change,<BR>
then you can create a stronger gravity field than you started with.  More<BR>
importantly, the stronger gravity field can be made to appear at a place<BR>
where there is no mass, and can be made wither attractive or repulsive."<BR>
<BR>
He goes on to describe a machine that implements this.  There are some<BR>
practical shortcomings, for example the mass you're moving has to be as<BR>
dense as a star, but it's a start.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:24:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
<BR>
>  A legged walker vehicle is not obviously a bad idea, its just that you<BR>
want it to be low to the ground with a small frontal area rather than<BR>
humanoid. <<BR>
<BR>
The Ghost in the Shell Battlemover, and the Battlemover from Bubblegum<BR>
Crisis 7: Double Vision are both good examples of more realistic walking<BR>
armored vehicles. The feet on the Crab in BGC needed to be MUCH larger, but<BR>
other wise was pretty innovative.<BR>
<BR>
Ground Pressure also presents a serious problem for starships as well...Take<BR>
the Close Escort (Gazelle or Fiery) and figure ground pressure for those<BR>
things, don't EVEN try to figure the SDB! Even with several square meters of<BR>
landing gear area they would still severely damage a typical city street or<BR>
freeway....maybe even a heavyduty runway at an international airport.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:26:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
<BR>
A big thanks to Legate Legion who pointed out the Niven connection. I think<BR>
that the slap of my hand against my forehead was heard 'round the world.<BR>
Though I haven't read the works in question, I have seen Beowulf Sheafer's<BR>
name bandied around the list from time to time. I should have seen that one.<BR>
<BR>
Just to finish off my own part of the thread:<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>He's one bad mother...<BR>
><BR>
>Shouldn't that be he *has* one bad mother?<BR>
<BR>
That would be Grendel, although I suspect that Beowulf must have had one bad<BR>
mother too. It must be tough raising a hero.<BR>
<BR>
"Get in there right now and wash the dishes! If I have to tell you one more<BR>
time..."<BR>
"But mooooom, I'm locked in mortal combat with a monster!"<BR>
"The monster will just have to wait until you're finished then, won't he?"<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion:<BR>
<BR>
>Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not been reported<BR>
>dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
<BR>
Ach! I hope Beowulf was dead. The closing scene of the poem (where Beowulf's<BR>
body was set ablaze) would have been extremely painful otherwise. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:36:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >>He's one bad mother...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Shouldn't that be he *has* one bad mother?<BR>
><BR>
> That would be Grendel, although I suspect that Beowulf must have had one<BR>
bad<BR>
> mother too. It must be tough raising a hero.<BR>
<BR>
Doh! That's what I get for trying to do e-mail too quickly, leaving off the<BR>
part which makes the entire comment make sense.<BR>
<BR>
Back on topic, though, we are used to naming ships, planets, computers, or<BR>
whatever, after characters from Earth mythology. In the OTU, there must have<BR>
been lots of other parallel mythologies developed, which will probably also<BR>
be used to name things. If the source of human myths is really some<BR>
fundamental unifying thing which all humans have, like Jung's collective<BR>
unconscious, then we would expect that the stories from the other<BR>
mythologies to be fairly similar to the ones which we know today.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, the alien races are likely to have their own mythologies<BR>
which are much different. If someone had lots of time to kill, they could<BR>
think about the elements which define, for example, the Vargr POV, and<BR>
distill these down into a set of principles for Vargr mythology.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:44:18 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: ACQ<BR>
<BR>
FYI: Our Warehouse 23 manager (http://www.warehouse23.com ) reports that<BR>
ample supplies of At Close Quarters are expected in Friday, and backorders<BR>
for them them should be shipped shipped out that same day.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (rly-ye01.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.198]) by air-ye02.mx.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 15:46:38 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 15:45:53 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA21702;<BR>
	Wed, 31 May 2000 15:44:42 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 31 May 2000 15:44:39 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA21664<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 15:44:39 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:44:39 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005311944.PAA21664@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2534</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/31/00 4:22:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 31 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2534<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] <BR>
An Idea for T5<BR>
Re: ACQ<BR>
Re: ACQ<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] <BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re-Release of Space 1889<BR>
one of those new ranks <BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
OT: BattleTech (was Vs: Starship Construction)<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Beo-who?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:55:06 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] <BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There are two things you might want to consider. I would first analyze your<BR>
> TO+E's and see what LEVELS of ranks you need, BEFORE you consider eliminating<BR>
> levels of rank.<BR>
<BR>
I don't want to change the ranks and levels, just their titles,<BR>
so that a Navy Lieutenant, Army Lieutenant, and Marine<BR>
Lieutenant (or Force Lieutenant) are all O3.  I already<BR>
changed Navy Lt.Commander to Major.  If I rename<BR>
Army Captain, move Army Lieutenant to O3, then I<BR>
need to rename Army O1 and O2.  I came up with<BR>
"Troop Leader" off the top of my head, for leading<BR>
a platoon-sized outfit (and I have an O2 Marine Force<BR>
Leader, which I'm not entirely happy with).<BR>
<BR>
> I see a trend of MORE, not less ranks added as a fighting<BR>
> force becomes more technological.<BR>
<BR>
Warrant Officer ranks might serve well here.  But that<BR>
would be totally new ground for Traveller and I don't<BR>
know squat about these ranks.<BR>
<BR>
> The second thing I would consider would be to NOT make this TOO sci fi<BR>
> exotic, at the expense of "realism" (in quotes as different is OK or even<BR>
> good in a sci fi sense, as long as it makes sense). I would also include<BR>
> English (sorry Hans...:-( ) translations of any Vilani rank names....<BR>
<BR>
Of course, but I'd actually like to do that backwards, i.e.,<BR>
find the Vilani name (if any exist), then using the English<BR>
translation of that.<BR>
<BR>
> I DO like VERY much your concept of rank names that are functional and/or<BR>
> descriptive...Just beware of this trap: Being X is the CO of an armored<BR>
> whatever (equivelant to a platoon) and is ranked "platoon leader". Being Y is<BR>
> also ranked "platoon leader" but is an exo-atmospheric fighter pilot because<BR>
> doctrine dictates that fighter pilots be commissioned officers....<BR>
<BR>
Another reason to at least look into Warrant Officers.<BR>
But, IIRC, that is pretty much the rationale for adding "Force"<BR>
in front of several Marine officer ranks, i.e., to prevent confusing<BR>
a Navy Captain, which might be any rank in charge of a ship,<BR>
and a Marine Captain.  Of course, you could hyphenate and<BR>
compound ranks with positions.  Sergeant-Pilot, Captain-Tanker,<BR>
but that seems less than elegant.<BR>
<BR>
What I was thinking of regarding functional names it the<BR>
fact that "Private" doesn't mean anything significant, literally,<BR>
as opposed to "Armsman", "Rifleman", "Space Hand", "Striker",<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:00:41 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: An Idea for T5<BR>
<BR>
The talk about T5 got me thinking about it today and I had an idea.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that the "It's harder than it looks" rule is getting<BR>
at the same thing that the Multiple Actions rule is getting at.<BR>
Skills are what you know and Characteristics are what assist you.<BR>
If tasks are too hard for your skill level *or* you try to perform<BR>
multiple tasks the characteristic just doesn't help as much. <BR>
<BR>
You may have already thought of this, but having had an epiphany I<BR>
decided to run this past you...<BR>
<BR>
Step one: How many tasks?<BR>
    When it becomes a players turn, she decides how many tasks she<BR>
    will be attempting during the turn.  The Assisting<BR>
    characteristic for each of the tasks will be divided by that<BR>
    number, round down.<BR>
<BR>
    Example 1:  Jo attempts 1 task, to plot the course for the ship,<BR>
                an Average (2d) task.  She uses her full EDU (9) +<BR>
                her Astrogation (2) skill = 11 for 97% chance of<BR>
                success.<BR>
                <BR>
    Example 2:  Jo attempts 2 tasks, to plot the the course for the<BR>
                ship as above and pilot the ship (2.5d) at the same<BR>
                time using her Dex (8) characteristic and Pilot (2)<BR>
                skill.  She uses half of her characteristics:<BR>
                    Astrogation 4+2 = 6 on 2d   42%<BR>
                    Piloting    4+2 = 6 on 2.5d 18%<BR>
                and is likely to fail at both tasks.<BR>
                <BR>
        [The lesson: trying to do more than one thing at a time is<BR>
        harder than you think.]<BR>
                <BR>
Step two:  Is the task beyond the PC's training?<BR>
    For each task attempted, if the PC's skill level isn't equal to<BR>
    or greater than the number of d6's thrown then the task is<BR>
    beyond the PC's current level of training.  Treat such tasks<BR>
    like 1 of 2 multiple actions.  In other words, divide the<BR>
    characteristic assisting in accomplishing the task by 2.<BR>
    <BR>
    Example 3:  Jo attempts 1 task this turn, to swing from one<BR>
                balcony to another (Formidable). <BR>
                <BR>
                To swing from one Balcony to another.<BR>
                Formidable (3d). Dex, Acrobat.<BR>
                <BR>
                    Jo has only a skill of 1 in Acrobat so this is<BR>
                    beyond her training and she has to divide her<BR>
                    Dex by 2.  8/4 + 1 = 5- on 3d (5%)<BR>
    <BR>
    Example 4:  Jo attempts 2 tasks this turn, both using her Dex<BR>
                (8), the first using her Brawling (2) and the second<BR>
                using her Acrobatic (1).<BR>
                <BR>
                To block a Punch.<BR>
                Average (2d). Dex, Brawling.<BR>
                <BR>
                    Jo has a 2 level so she uses 8/2 + 2 and tries<BR>
                    to roll 6- on 2d (42%).<BR>
                    <BR>
                To swing from one Balcony to another.<BR>
                Formidable (3d). Dex, Acrobat.<BR>
                <BR>
                    Jo has to divide her Dex by 2 twice this time<BR>
                    because she is performing 2 actions and this one<BR>
                    is too hard for her level 1.  8/2/2 + 1 = 3- on<BR>
                    3d (0.4%).<BR>
<BR>
I think combining these two rules in this way makes a lot of sense<BR>
and it gives the same sort of effect as raising the Task Level by<BR>
one on "harder than it looks situations."<BR>
<BR>
What do you think?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:02:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ<BR>
<BR>
On 05/31/00 at 02:44 PM,  Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>FYI: Our Warehouse 23 manager (http://www.warehouse23.com ) reports that<BR>
>ample supplies of At Close Quarters are expected in Friday, and<BR>
>backorders for them them should be shipped shipped out that same day.<BR>
<BR>
Yay!!!<BR>
<BR>
I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on ACQ.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:01:41<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ<BR>
<BR>
At 02:44 PM 5/31/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>FYI: Our Warehouse 23 manager (http://www.warehouse23.com ) reports that<BR>
>ample supplies of At Close Quarters are expected in Friday, and backorders<BR>
>for them them should be shipped shipped out that same day.<BR>
<BR>
"ample supplies"?  "back orders"?<BR>
<BR>
YESSS!!!!!!!!!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:12:54 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
<BR>
God, this post is gonna make me look anal-retentive. <BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>     There is also a second hero named Beowulf Sheafer from Larry Niven's<BR>
<BR>
Shaeffer, not Sheafer.<BR>
<BR>
> Know Universe,<BR>
<BR>
Known Space.<BR>
<BR>
> IIRC, who was a free trader,<BR>
<BR>
Pilot for a good-sized line, originally, rather than a free trader. In his<BR>
stories, though, he certainly is a prototypical Traveller, and undoubtedly <BR>
those stories influenced the game. <BR>
<BR>
Bey worked for "Nakamura Lines", IIRC, and even though Japanese isn't Vilani, <BR>
I always think of Niven when I see "Naasiirka" (sp?) in Traveller material. <BR>
<BR>
> He kicked the snot out of the Kzin. <BR>
<BR>
Nope. Not much of a fighter, is Bey Shaeffer. The collection _Neutron Star_ <BR>
does contain most of the Shaeffer stories, and does contain a story where <BR>
Kzinti get kicked ("The Soft Weapon"), but there's no overlap. :) In fact, <BR>
I don't think any of the Shaeffer stories prior to "Ghost"/"Procrustes" <BR>
(where we see Kzin acting as police in a mostly-human culture!) have him <BR>
even encountering a Kzin.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I read a little Niven now and again. Why?<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell "Hm, is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?" B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:34:54 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] <BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I did a little brief research into the origin of rank<BR>
> titles a couple of weeks ago.  I have a draft effort here, <BR>
> which includes material from various sources, including<BR>
> Doug Berry's Marine Armsman:<BR>
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/milranks.html<BR>
<BR>
> In the system I'm trying to create, I want all the ranks<BR>
> to mean the same in different services, which each<BR>
> service retaining unique titles for some ranks (such as<BR>
> Marshals in the Marines, Generals in the Army, and<BR>
> Admirals in the Navy).<BR>
> What I want to do is eliminate Army Captains,<BR>
<BR>
You might consider renaming the rank of Army Captain<BR>
as 'Ground Captain'. This will help make the distinction<BR>
between Army Captain and Navy Captain clear but minimize<BR>
changes to canon. Lois Bujold (the superb multiple Hugo<BR>
and Nebula award winning author) has a unified military<BR>
service in her books. The unified service was created by dumping<BR>
the previous services together and retaining their old<BR>
titles. To avoid the confusion of Army Captain and Navy Captain<BR>
the Barrayaran's use the term 'Ground Captain' and it works well<BR>
for them.<BR>
<BR>
This approach also is a fairly minimal alteration to current<BR>
canon and, as such, is better for canon purists such as myself.<BR>
<BR>
> Make only one type of Army Lieutenant (O3)<BR>
> and make new titles for Army O1, and O2.<BR>
> That way, Lieutenant would mean O3 in all<BR>
> services in my system.<BR>
<BR>
Alternately you could make Lieutenant the O2 rank in<BR>
all 3 services and call the O3 rank SubMajor. This would<BR>
require dropping your current Marine O2 title Force<BR>
Leader in favor of Force Lieutenant your current Marine<BR>
O3 title.<BR>
<BR>
> So, I'm looking for suggestions.  I'd be especially be<BR>
> interested if anyone know of any Vilani terms, or<BR>
> titles that might be suitable. <BR>
<BR>
IIRC Phil Mac Gregor had complete lists of Vilani military ranks<BR>
with translations in his Traveller fanzine. I'll see if I can<BR>
find a copy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:38:31 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, the alien races are likely to have their own mythologies<BR>
> which are much different. If someone had lots of time to kill, they could<BR>
> think about the elements which define, for example, the Vargr POV, and<BR>
> distill these down into a set of principles for Vargr mythology.<BR>
><BR>
Of course it's also possible that the Vargr don't *have* mythology,<BR>
if we mean stories about gods, goddesses, etc. (Yes, I'm sure mythology<BR>
has other meanings, but I'm going to use this one for the sake of<BR>
argument.) Perhaps belief in God or Gods is peculiar to humans.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know what the canon says; if it says that the Vargr have<BR>
gods/spirits/etc.,<BR>
then I'll accept it. However, I'd prefer at least some elements of human<BR>
cultures to be absent among aliens. I don't think one can create convincing<BR>
aliens unless one specifies which human universals are unique to our<BR>
species.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:47:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
<BR>
At 01:12 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> IIRC, who was a free trader,<BR>
><BR>
>Pilot for a good-sized line, originally, rather than a free trader. In his<BR>
>stories, though, he certainly is a prototypical Traveller, and undoubtedly <BR>
>those stories influenced the game. <BR>
<BR>
I always saw Bey as a Scout.. fits with the things he did.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:02:43 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2533<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 31 May 2000, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > IIRC, who was a free trader,<BR>
> <BR>
> Pilot for a good-sized line, originally, rather than a free trader. In his<BR>
> stories, though, he certainly is a prototypical Traveller, and undoubtedly <BR>
> those stories influenced the game. <BR>
> <BR>
> Bey worked for "Nakamura Lines", IIRC, and even though Japanese isn't Vilani, <BR>
> I always think of Niven when I see "Naasiirka" (sp?) in Traveller material. <BR>
<BR>
He also had a habit of becoming unemployed and going deep into debt,<BR>
giving the Puppeteers a hold over him so they can rope him into their<BR>
latest scheme.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeah, I read a little Niven now and again. Why?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Because they're good stories?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:11:07 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
>Shouldn't that be he *has* one bad mother?<BR>
<BR>
No, Grendel had the bad mother, and boy was she mad when<BR>
Beowulf broke into her home after maiming her son (who then<BR>
died of blood loss on her living room floor).  (Of course,<BR>
her son, the notorious juvenile delinquent, did sort of<BR>
have it coming.  I don't see probation and therapy really<BR>
helping him with his unresolved anger issues, probably<BR>
related to the early disappearance of his father, about<BR>
whom no one knows anything.)  <BR>
<BR>
So about ship names.  Is there a Grendel class in anyone's<BR>
Traveller universe (or in the official), or a class named<BR>
for mythological monsters?  I would expect that the Sword<BR>
Worlders would name warships after monsters, especially<BR>
from European mythology and literature.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:15:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
>    Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not<BR>
<BR>
>been reported dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
<BR>
Beowulf dies in the last part of the saga, burned by the<BR>
dragon he has challenged and killed.  He gives a last<BR>
speech and sends his assistant into the dragon's cave to<BR>
check out the loot.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:17:44 EDT<BR>
From: HighTraveller@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re-Release of Space 1889<BR>
<BR>
Hi-<BR>
  Just saw where about a dozen items of Space 1889 material is being released/re-released by Heliograph Inc. in July. Even is using the old logo. Anyone know anything about this company/ who this is? While its not a game I play, I'm interested anytime GDW products get put to print.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:19:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: one of those new ranks <BR>
<BR>
>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2532<BR>
<BR>
>Is anyone else remembering the bit from a MASH episode <BR>
>where they slap some captain's bars onto Radar's uniform <BR>
>and tell people he's "one of those new ranks like<BR>
sergeant-<BR>
>major or lieutenant colonel -- a corporal-captain!"<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't until you brought it up, and then I had the<BR>
automatic gag reflex I get whenever I think of Alan Alda or<BR>
Geraldo Rivera.  Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:24:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
<BR>
>Ground Pressure also presents a serious problem for<BR>
>starships as well...Take the Close Escort (Gazelle or <BR>
>Fiery) and figure ground pressure for those things, don't <BR>
>EVEN try to figure the SDB! Even with several square <BR>
>meters of landing gear area they would still severely <BR>
>damage a typical city street or freeway....maybe even a <BR>
>heavy duty runway at an international airport.<BR>
<BR>
The Type E starport is described as being a cleared area of<BR>
bedrock.  I've assumed that you need to go to bedrock to<BR>
minimize ground pressure problems.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:14:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>    There is also a second hero named Beowulf Sheafer from Larry Niven's<BR>
>>Know Universe, IIRC, who was a free trader, & while he was one bad<BR>
>>mother, he didn't run around & tear the arms off or kicking the snot out<BR>
>>of ogres. He did go to the center of the Milky Way galaxy.  He has been<BR>
>>to every human colonized world.  He kicked the snot out of the Kzin.<BR>
><BR>
>Any human that can kick the snot out of Kzin in hand to hand combat, *and*<BR>
while unarmed really *is* one bad muther!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Even badder than Shaft, but not as bad as Hawk.  I do believe that Hawk<BR>
could kick the snot out of 2 Kzin in Hand to Hand combat while unarmed, with<BR>
one hand tied behind his back & drunk.<BR>
<BR>
>>And, he was a merchant spacer.<BR>
><BR>
>Merchant?  Was he?  I'd call him an adventurer more than anything else,<BR>
although he *did* do some trading with the Outsiders didn't he.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Adventurer, Merchant, he's the guy with the gun.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:15:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>A big thanks to Legate Legion who pointed out the Niven connection. I think<BR>
>that the slap of my hand against my forehead was heard 'round the world.<BR>
>Though I haven't read the works in question, I have seen Beowulf Sheafer's<BR>
>name bandied around the list from time to time. I should have seen that<BR>
one.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
>>Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not been reported<BR>
>>dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
><BR>
>Ach! I hope Beowulf was dead. The closing scene of the poem (where<BR>
Beowulf's<BR>
>body was set ablaze) would have been extremely painful otherwise. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    'Es not dead, 'es just pinning for the Fjords.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:17:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>     Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not been reported<BR>
>> dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
><BR>
>No, Beowulf died in his last fight with a dragon.  He's one of those epic<BR>
>heroes who becomes even more epic by sacrificing his life in battle.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    'Es not dead, 'es just pinning for the Fjords.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:34:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
<<<'Es not dead, 'es just pinning for the Fjords.>>><BR>
<BR>
Scandanavian   'ero, Lovely Plumage.<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:46:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/31/00 11:28 AM, legate@futureone.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
> <BR>
>>> So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around<BR>
>>> tearing out<BR>
>>> arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad<BR>
>>> mother...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Shouldn't that be he *has* one bad mother?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not been reported<BR>
> dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
<BR>
I think that the poster is unaware of the intro to the TV show, it is "He's<BR>
one bad mother-(shut your mouth)" as in it is a vulgarity cut off by the<BR>
back-up vocals.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:55:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Epic Heros do not die of old age, & as Beowulf has not<BR>
>>been reported dead, therefore he is still alive & kicking.<BR>
><BR>
>Beowulf dies in the last part of the saga, burned by the<BR>
>dragon he has challenged and killed.  He gives a last<BR>
>speech and sends his assistant into the dragon's cave to<BR>
>check out the loot.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Ah, but was a body found?  I don't think so.  You know with Epic Hero's<BR>
unless a body is found, they are not dead.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:18:07 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: OT: BattleTech (was Vs: Starship Construction)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I have some background in physics and aerospace engineering (enough to do<BR>
> the math, anyway). At the risk of going OT, I used to play a game called<BR>
> Battletech: simple, playable, fun. Then one day I had to ask myself about<BR>
> _ground pressure_. When I did the math, I found that those lovely big<BR>
> robots were *physically impossible* -- no amount of advanced technology<BR>
> (short of contragravity) can change the pressure a given type of soil can<BR>
> withstand.<BR>
> <BR>
> I had to give up the game, because it wasn't any fun for me any more. My<BR>
> "willing suspension of disbelief" does not extend to cartoon physics. I<BR>
> don't mind simplifications, *so long as they are consistent and<BR>
> realistic*. <BR>
> <BR>
I made the error of trying to compute the speeds and accelerations used in AeroTech, which is part of the BT family. Aerotech has a nice hex-based space-combat system that is although quite unrealistic playable enough. I used to be able to suspend my disbelief to play without concern for the details, especially as the gravity well was niftily simulated. After trying to make sense of the tome and distance scale used, I got wild and unbelievable speed and accelerations. As I'm in a middle of a MechWarrior campaign I fear I'll have to use the rules as they are. I just hope my players can suspend their belief more than I...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:29:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
At 02:14 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Adventurer, Merchant, he's the guy with the gun.<BR>
<BR>
Beowulf Shaeffer with a gun?  Worst he ever did intentionally was punch a<BR>
guy in the face.  Unintentionally he released a quantum black hole which<BR>
proceeded to eat the bad guy.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:31:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
<BR>
At 04:38 PM 5/31/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know what the canon says; if it says that the Vargr have<BR>
>gods/spirits/etc.,<BR>
<BR>
Church of the Chosen Ones, appeared in Challenge, mentioned again in GURPS<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:37:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/31/00 2:46 PM, xrp@sierratel.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> intro to the TV show<BR>
<BR>
Shows how much I know, Shaft was a /movie/, not a TV show.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:48:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Beowulf dies in the last part of the saga, burned by the<BR>
>>dragon he has challenged and killed.  He gives a last<BR>
>>speech and sends his assistant into the dragon's cave to<BR>
>>check out the loot.<BR>
<BR>
He's bitten by the dragon, and if I recall correctly, his neck swells up.<BR>
The Geats send a group of burly guys to the cave to pick up the loot and<BR>
Beowulf's body. They build a pyre and that's when Beowulf's body gets put to<BR>
the torch.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion:<BR>
<BR>
>    Ah, but was a body found?  I don't think so.  You know with Epic Hero's<BR>
>unless a body is found, they are not dead.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, the body was found and burned. Most, but not all, epic heroes die. Even<BR>
those who don't die get knocked down a few notches. Gilgamesh loses his good<BR>
buddy Enkidu and fails on his quest for immortality. The hero riding off<BR>
into the sunset with a job well done is a relatively recent change.<BR>
<BR>
You see, epic poets didn't plan for sequels in those days, which probably<BR>
explains why their box office receipts were so poor.<BR>
<BR>
<cue thumping techno soundtrack> Agamemnon took his woman. Paris thought he<BR>
took his life, but now, Achilles is back as you've never seen him before...<BR>
and he's bringing the war back home! <snippet from the film, Achilles to<BR>
Agamemnon: "Remember when I told Athena I wouldn't kill you? I lied!"<BR>
followed by explosion> He's got twice the wrath, and that means twice the<BR>
action! This summer Homer, the writer and director of "The Iliad" and "The<BR>
Odyssey" will take you on a ride you'll never forget... I:2! <obligatory<BR>
stupid tagline: Achilles is such a heel.><BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I'm working on it in another response. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:20:29 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Beo-who?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-31 13:18:58 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:04:47 -0400<BR>
 From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
 Subject: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
 <BR>
 So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around tearing out<BR>
 arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad mother... (Shut your<BR>
 mouth!) I'm just talking about Beowulf! (We can dig it.) Ahem. So anyway,<BR>
 there's this surly and burly hero, and somebody decides to name a type of<BR>
 free trader after him. A free trader. Where's the sense in that? How did<BR>
 this happen exactly? I mean, I suppose Loren could give the "real life"<BR>
 version if it's memorable. >><BR>
<BR>
Marc or Frank (I forget who) chose the name for the message on the box, which <BR>
came before the deckplan in Striker (where the FT we all know and love was <BR>
born). I always assumed it had to do either with the epic poem or Beowulf <BR>
Shaefer (sp?).<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2534<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 19:22:20 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 19:22:00 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA30916;<BR>
	Wed, 31 May 2000 19:21:13 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 31 May 2000 19:21:08 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA30889<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 19:21:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:21:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005312321.TAA30889@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2534<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2535</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/31/00 7:43:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 31 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2535<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: BayCon Photos!!   (was Re: BayCon Party Report)<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
re : Mecha vs Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
Re: Mecha vs Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] <BR>
Re : Imperial Data Package (was OT : Stinging Nettles)<BR>
Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
Re: Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Jump Limits<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:22:31 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: BayCon Photos!!   (was Re: BayCon Party Report)<BR>
<BR>
No doubt :)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bruce<BR>
> Johnson<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 10:42 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: BayCon Photos!! (was Re: BayCon Party Report)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ROFL!!!! Bet the sign confused the HELL out of unsuspecting Linux folk<BR>
> wandering by... ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > But of course :)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Bruce Johnson<BR>
> University of Arizona<BR>
> College of Pharmacy<BR>
> Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:28:56 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Well, my free trader's original paintjob was "Grendel's Daughter".  Does<BR>
that count?  ;)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:11 PM<BR>
> To: traveller mailing aa list<BR>
> Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
><BR>
> >Shouldn't that be he *has* one bad mother?<BR>
><BR>
> No, Grendel had the bad mother, and boy was she mad when<BR>
> Beowulf broke into her home after maiming her son (who then<BR>
> died of blood loss on her living room floor).  (Of course,<BR>
> her son, the notorious juvenile delinquent, did sort of<BR>
> have it coming.  I don't see probation and therapy really<BR>
> helping him with his unresolved anger issues, probably<BR>
> related to the early disappearance of his father, about<BR>
> whom no one knows anything.)<BR>
><BR>
> So about ship names.  Is there a Grendel class in anyone's<BR>
> Traveller universe (or in the official), or a class named<BR>
> for mythological monsters?  I would expect that the Sword<BR>
> Worlders would name warships after monsters, especially<BR>
> from European mythology and literature.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:47:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: re : Mecha vs Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
<BR>
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
><BR>
> >From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
><BR>
> >Ground Pressure also presents a serious problem for<BR>
> >starships as well...Take the Close Escort (Gazelle or<BR>
> >Fiery) and figure ground pressure for those things, don't<BR>
> >EVEN try to figure the SDB! Even with several square<BR>
> >meters of landing gear area they would still severely<BR>
> >damage a typical city street or freeway....maybe even a<BR>
> >heavy duty runway at an international airport.<BR>
><BR>
> The Type E starport is described as being a cleared area of<BR>
> bedrock.  I've assumed that you need to go to bedrock to<BR>
> minimize ground pressure problems.<BR>
<BR>
A better solution is to leave the CG turned on, to reduce the mass pressing<BR>
down on the legs.<BR>
<BR>
What ? You dont put about a dton of CG on your starships ?<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam does ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:10:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs Grav Tanks & Starships<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
> > The Type E starport is described as being a cleared area of<BR>
> > bedrock.  I've assumed that you need to go to bedrock to<BR>
> > minimize ground pressure problems.<BR>
><BR>
> A better solution is to leave the CG turned on, to reduce the mass<BR>
pressing<BR>
> down on the legs.<BR>
><BR>
> What ? You dont put about a dton of CG on your starships ?<BR>
><BR>
> Famile Spofulam does ...<BR>
<BR>
FS *needs* to... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:11:20 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/31/00 at 03:29 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 02:14 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>    Adventurer, Merchant, he's the guy with the gun.<BR>
<BR>
>Beowulf Shaeffer with a gun?  Worst he ever did intentionally was punch a<BR>
>guy in the face.  Unintentionally he released a quantum black hole which<BR>
>proceeded to eat the bad guy.<BR>
<BR>
To a human, you mean. <g>  I remember a short story where he fought and killed a Kzin assassin in a corridor.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:12:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/31/00 at 03:37 PM,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/31/00 2:46 PM, xrp@sierratel.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> intro to the TV show<BR>
<BR>
>Shows how much I know, Shaft was a /movie/, not a TV show.<BR>
<BR>
And "Theme from Shaft" was the song. <g>  <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 02:30:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles [Long] <BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I don't want to change the ranks and levels, just<BR>
their titles,<BR>
> so that a Navy Lieutenant, Army Lieutenant, and<BR>
Marine<BR>
> Lieutenant (or Force Lieutenant) are all O3.  I<BR>
already<BR>
> changed Navy Lt.Commander to Major.  If I rename<BR>
> Army Captain, move Army Lieutenant to O3, then I<BR>
> need to rename Army O1 and O2.  I came up with<BR>
> "Troop Leader" off the top of my head, for leading<BR>
> a platoon-sized outfit (and I have an O2 Marine Force<BR>
> Leader, which I'm not entirely happy with).<BR>
<BR>
IIRC the Chinese have a unified rank structure like<BR>
that.<BR>
IIRC they also call their Navy something like the<BR>
marine bit of the People's<BR>
Liberation Army which annoys other Navies so badly that<BR>
they pretend that<BR>
its called the Chinese Navy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > The second thing I would consider would be to NOT<BR>
make this TOO sci fi<BR>
> > exotic, at the expense of "realism" (in quotes as<BR>
different is OK or even<BR>
> > good in a sci fi sense, as long as it makes sense).<BR>
I would also include<BR>
> > English (sorry Hans...:-( ) translations of any<BR>
Vilani rank names....<BR>
<BR>
I always liked the ranks in CJ Cheryth(sp) which were<BR>
all related to position,<BR>
Armscomp, Longscanner, Nav, Captain, with shift and<BR>
seniority suffix, Alterday Captain,<BR>
Mainday Nav Three etc.<BR>
<BR>
> What I was thinking of regarding functional names it<BR>
the<BR>
> fact that "Private" doesn't mean anything<BR>
significant, literally,<BR>
> as opposed to "Armsman", "Rifleman", "Space Hand",<BR>
"Striker",<BR>
> etc.<BR>
><BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:57:59 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Imperial Data Package (was OT : Stinging Nettles)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote :-<BR>
> Ob Traveller:  There is probably a Department of<BR>
> Nomenclature within the Ministry of Science that maintains<BR>
> standard names for things.<BR>
<examples snipped><BR>
> Would this system be used only for biological subjects, or<BR>
> would geological stuff be included as well?<BR>
<BR>
Here's my Cr 0.02...<BR>
The Imperium exists for trade, not research.<BR>
So the Ministry of Commerce maintains the Imperial Data Package which is<BR>
a list of the specifications of various items of equipment (guns,<BR>
vehicles, etc.) as well as standards for interstellar trade (e.g.<BR>
container sizes, port definitions).<BR>
<BR>
It is in the Imperial Data Package that official names are listed<BR>
and updated as required.<BR>
<BR>
There are a number of complementary databases e.g. the Imperial Navy's<BR>
Medical Branch's Diagnostic and Therapeutic Index, which is a<BR>
compilation of drugs, tests and procedures arranged by tech level,<BR>
with some notes on efficacy.<BR>
<BR>
To compound the confusion, every service's R&D/Tech Services and<BR>
Engineering divisions have its own separate databases.<BR>
<BR>
In the case of taxonomy, the current battle between classical methods<BR>
and cladistics will have been won by the latter camp. <BR>
<BR>
In the Imperium, the two naming systems in use are based on Terran and<BR>
Sylean cladistic methods ; the classical Vilani taxonomical system is<BR>
only used by the OTU equivalents of New Age enthusiasts, being based on<BR>
leg number, colour, texture, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Plenty of potential for dodgy deals and bureaucratic bungles here.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:21:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
<BR>
hello, I have some ideas on the military rank thread that I thought I'd pass<BR>
along:<BR>
<BR>
1.  A poster dropped a "hint" for a break-down of enlisted ranks.  These are<BR>
the current enlisted ranks for the US Army:  (Be advised that the Navy, Air<BR>
Force, and Marines use different titles.)<BR>
E-10  Sergeant Major of the Army  (SMA)  only one of these.  We just got a<BR>
new one, SMA Tilley<BR>
E-9  Sergeant Major (SGM) or Command Sergeant Major  (CSM)  (c)<BR>
E-8  Master Sergeant  (MSG) or First Sergeant  (1SG)     (b)<BR>
E-7  Sergeant First Class  (SFC)   usual rank for a platoon sergeant<BR>
E-6  Staff Sergeant  (SSG)              usual rank for a section/squad<BR>
sergeant<BR>
E-5  Sergeant   (SGT)                       Usual rank for a team leader<BR>
E-4  Specialist (SPC)  or Corporal  (CPL)   (a)<BR>
E-3  Private First Class  (PFC)<BR>
E-2  Private                      (PV2)  1 chevron<BR>
E-1  Private                      (PVT)  No stripes<BR>
Here's a few notes to help clarify things:<BR>
(a)  An E-4 can be either a specialist or a corporal.  A Corporal is simply<BR>
an E-4 in a leadership position.  For instance,  a stinger missile has a two<BR>
man crew.  It is possible for both crewmembers to be E-4s, with the gunner a<BR>
specialist and the team chief being a corporal.  Corporals are not all that<BR>
common, however, since you have to hold the leadership position three months<BR>
before the Captain can authorize your "lateral promotion".  By the time this<BR>
happens, most guys who would be eligible  will have already received their<BR>
E-5.<BR>
(b)  Pretty much the same deal here.  An E-8 would be known as 1SG if he<BR>
"has his own company."  In other words, he would hold the highest enlisted<BR>
position in a company sized unit.  This is probably the most feared position<BR>
in the Army.  A bad 1SG will definitely tear up a unit.  A MSG usually is<BR>
the NCOIC of a mid-echelon staff element, such as a division or brigade S-3<BR>
(operations) shop.<BR>
(c)  Same as (b) above except a CSM would hold the highest enlisted position<BR>
in elements of battalion size and higher (i.e., battalion CSM, brigade CSM,<BR>
Division CSM  etc etc etc)  A SGM would hold high echelon staff positions.<BR>
<BR>
2.  I would caution against using Warrant Officers as substitutes for<BR>
company grade officers.  Although they can sometimes hold command positions,<BR>
they are meant to be technicians, "subject-matter experts", if you will.  Of<BR>
course it just now occurred to me that you could use those titles for<BR>
company grade officers and justify it as being the result of three millennia<BR>
of linguistic drift, like another TMLer posting how sergeant derived from<BR>
slave if you go back far enough.<BR>
<BR>
3.  As far as having one unified rank structure for the Army, Navy, and<BR>
Marines, I believe the Canadians have one unified "defense force".  Does<BR>
anybody know their rank structure?  That might be a good source of ideas.<BR>
<BR>
4.  The Navy might provide some good ideas for "functional" enlisted ranks.<BR>
I am treading on dangerous ground here, as my experience is mostly in the<BR>
Army.  I do know, however, that their "ratings" are based on their job<BR>
description, such as torpedoman 1st class or aviation electronic technician<BR>
2nd class.  I know there are some navy guys on this list that would be able<BR>
to add more to this.  You could easily do the same in the Army.  There could<BR>
be rifleman 1st class, leading cavalryman, and senior screens tech, for<BR>
instance.<BR>
<BR>
I hoped this helped.    I also apologize for not attributing the posts I<BR>
references by the poster's name, I was doing this by memory.<BR>
<BR>
VR<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:48:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/30/00 10:16 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Actually, you are making unfounded assumptions. There are ways to<BR>
>> create "normal" g-forces using very little mass (well, compared with a<BR>
>> planet).<BR>
><BR>
> How? How much G is 'normal' in this context.<BR>
<BR>
Pick a number, plug it into the formula, and then solve for density &<BR>
thickness. <BR>
<BR>
> -- and how to achieve it with only the gravity of the ship's mass to<BR>
> work with?<BR>
<BR>
If we knew that we'd be doing it now. The point is that it's *possible*<BR>
under current theory, even if we don't know how to pull it off.<BR>
<BR>
>> And there may be ways to create fields that produce gravity like<BR>
>> effects (or even real gravity) in limited areas. the required<BR>
>> space-time geometries look odd, but they don't appear to be<BR>
>> *impossible. Ditto for localized areas of "zero gravity" (just watch<BR>
>> out for edge effects!).<BR>
><BR>
> How is this field created?<BR>
<BR>
I have no idea. <BR>
<BR>
> Are you assuming the existence of gravitons?<BR>
<BR>
Nope.<BR>
<BR>
> How do you harness their power, and focus their effect?<BR>
<BR>
I don't even know if that's *how* you'd do it.<BR>
<BR>
> Newton believed that gravity was a 'force' like that of electricity. We<BR>
> now know it to be the 4-dimentional, noneuclidean topography of<BR>
> space-time. :) At least we think we do.<BR>
<BR>
And I merely noted that many of these things would be accomplished by<BR>
certain topographical configurations. *How* such configurations could<BR>
be created, I don't know, but they don't require impossible<BR>
"topographies" nor do they violate any conservation laws.<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, battle gets kinda difficult when repairs aren't practical unless<BR>
>> you cut your drive back to 1 or 2 gees. Doing repairs under higher<BR>
>> acceleration is going to be *way* to difficult to be practical.<BR>
><BR>
> I agree.<BR>
><BR>
> But this doesn't speak to my point. I do not believe that this makes<BR>
> grav-plates *necessary* to the game, just highly convenient.<BR>
<BR>
It's required if you want combat to have certain characteristics. <BR>
<BR>
> Of course, the ability to exist without life-support would be<BR>
> convenient, too.<BR>
<BR>
>>> but *nothing* resembling<BR>
>>> gravity without the presence of acceleration or a massive body. Sorry.<BR>
>>> Anyone care to challenge that with physics? Anyone?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Sure. Check out any of a number of articles by Dr. Robert Forward. You<BR>
>> can get gravity-like effects from moving high density matter at very<BR>
>> high speeds along certain types of path. Or just use flat plates of<BR>
>> very high density matter to produce a field of the desired strength.<BR>
><BR>
> This all sounds perfectly reasonable (and educational!) But the key<BR>
> phrase that strikes me in the above paragraph is: "high density" --<BR>
> which is no different that what I am saying.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but it *is* different.  The higher the density of the material<BR>
the less *mass* you need for many things.<BR>
<BR>
> My problem is with the idea of turning on 'gravity' like a light bulb.<BR>
<BR>
If gravitons exist, and a unified field theory can be found it may well<BR>
turn out that we can generate gravitons to order. Until we determine<BR>
that gravitons don't exist and that gravity can't be unified with the<BR>
strong & electro-weak forces, we *can't* say that doing that sort of<BR>
thing with gravity *isn't* possible.<BR>
<BR>
>> In case you weren't aware, the field from a flat plate (except near the<BR>
>> edges) has *no* decrement (ie it's the same strength at any distance<BR>
>> that doesn't approach the radius closely) and the magnitude of the<BR>
>> force depends on the *density* and *thickness* of the plate.<BR>
><BR>
> Same strength at *any* distance? What about the inverse square law?<BR>
<BR>
That applies to a *spherical* field. In fact, it's a consequence of the<BR>
*geometry* of the spherical field. The number of "flux lines" per unit<BR>
area drops as the inverse square of the distance *because* the number<BR>
of "lines" is fixed, but the *area* increases as the square of the<BR>
distance.<BR>
<BR>
With a flat plate, the area *and* the number of "flux lines" stays the<BR>
same, regardless of distance. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, that would require an infinitely wide flat plate. But it<BR>
holds true with flat plates of *finite* extent, as long as the distance<BR>
to the edge of the plate is much larger than the distance to the<BR>
surface (and the plate must be much thinner than it is wide).<BR>
<BR>
If you can do calculus, try summing the fields of the individual<BR>
particles in the plate, and that's the result you get.<BR>
<BR>
>> There are several other tricks are possible using Newtonian and/or<BR>
>> Einsteinian physics.<BR>
><BR>
> Do any of these 'tricks' resemble anything like grav plates?<BR>
<BR>
No, but they do even weirder things... <BR>
<BR>
For now, I find that just about all the *scientific* problems can be<BR>
handled by assuming that the plates exist in *pairs, and the field only<BR>
exists between them. <BR>
<BR>
>>> How about an easier question: can anyone tell me why 'Star Trek-style'<BR>
>>> shipboard gravitics is necessary to the gist, playability, or story line of<BR>
>>> the Traveller RPG?<BR>
>><BR>
>> It avoids dealing with folks getting thrown around during combat for one.<BR>
>> And makes *doing* anything during combat possible. Well, doing anything<BR>
>> other than sit in the accel tank and flip switches.<BR>
><BR>
> You only have to sit in an accel tank during the actual acceleration blast,<BR>
<BR>
Slight problem. Any body *not* accelerating during combat is a sitting<BR>
duck.<BR>
<BR>
> or a more creative suit (or portable accel couch) can be devised to<BR>
> protect the delicate humans. Or, even, an invasive approach toward<BR>
> increasing the internal pressure of their bodies, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Contrary to what you read in "The Forever War" by Haldeman, there's no<BR>
reason to believe that increasing the internal pressure of the body<BR>
would help. And it *is* known that high pressures are determental to<BR>
humans. <BR>
<BR>
> Multi-gee evasive maneuvers wouldn't have as devastating effect on,<BR>
> say, a person in a protective 'suit' within a highly pressurized tank<BR>
> of liquid.<BR>
<BR>
As noted above, *pressurizing* the liquid won't help. Breathing a<BR>
liquid might help, but that isn't all that good for you either. And<BR>
that's *only* a *potential* solution for *military* vessels. Passenger<BR>
vessels *can't* do that to the passengers. <BR>
<BR>
> Hell, since a space vessel must be 'airtight' anyway, why keep it<BR>
> filled with earth-like atmosphere and pressure?<BR>
<BR>
Besides the fact that "super-pressurizing" the ship will require<BR>
building the ship *far* more strongly than a normal pressure ship<BR>
(remember, every atmosphere of internal pressure means the hull has to<BR>
resist an extra 10 *tonnes* of force per square meter!) The mass<BR>
required will go up fast. <BR>
<BR>
Worse yet, the consequences of a hull puncture become catastrophic. And<BR>
unless you want the *internal* bulkheads to be as strong as the hull,<BR>
you'll lose the hole ship to *any* puncture. If you *do* make them that<BR>
strong, the ship gets even *heavier*.<BR>
<BR>
So since you want to use reaction drives, you soon reach the point<BR>
where you can't *maintain* those high accelerations long enough to be<BR>
worth the trouble.<BR>
<BR>
> During a General Quarters alert, the ship can be 'flooded' and<BR>
> superpressurized (the crew, of course, is in their battledress/vacc<BR>
> suits by then, or no need for a court-martial...)<BR>
<BR>
Battle dress that can handle those sorts of *internal* pressure and not<BR>
fail when there's a hull breach are harder to believe than any of the<BR>
stuff you object to. Especially ones that also allow you to *move*<BR>
under those sorts of acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
And again, this makes civilian ships sitting ducks.<BR>
<BR>
> Plus, at high enough tech, shipboard contra-grav (mitigating the<BR>
> effect of extreme acceleration) could seriously soften the blow.<BR>
<BR>
Principle of equivalence! Anything that can counter acceleration can<BR>
simulate gravity...<BR>
<BR>
One goes hand in hand with the other. :-)<BR>
<BR>
>> Also, stuff like aircars and artificial gravity are part and parcel of<BR>
>> the sort of stories that Traveller is based on.<BR>
><BR>
> I do not believe this. Air-rafts and other common Traveller grav<BR>
> vehicles are contra-grav. No reason for them not to be. I have yet to<BR>
> come across a Traveller story that requires the existence of a device<BR>
> that can create the effect of a gravity well in the absence of nearby<BR>
> mass and/or acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
Contrary to Traveller canon, I find it hard to see how an effect that<BR>
allows an object to float unsupported in a gravity field *can't* be<BR>
used to *create* a simulated gravity field. <BR>
<BR>
Hell, as a worst case, the ship's decks *do* have a gravity field,<BR>
albeit weak. Increase *that*...<BR>
<BR>
> Some of these ideas seem silly, sure. Who wants to put their<BR>
> character in a pressurized tank (or turn their ship into one), when<BR>
> we've been getting along just fine with 'faking it?' Well, to me<BR>
> anyway, the idea of a more realistic approach to gravity does not<BR>
> take the fun out of the game.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, your approachs to the problems caused by high acceleration are<BR>
*just* as unrealistic as artificial gravity, and require major changes<BR>
in the game.<BR>
<BR>
>> BTW, I *do* dislike the ships with the floors laid out parallel to the<BR>
>> axis of acceleration. That's *asking* for trouble. I don't care *how<BR>
>> advanced you are. Things will fail. Especially when folks start<BR>
>> shooting at you.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, yes, and furthermore, yes! I would very much like to see an artist's<BR>
> rendition or a deckplan that takes these matters into consideration -- and<BR>
> is not based on earth-vessels! Boots have magnetic soles (or, at least<BR>
> velcro), there are plenty of things to grab onto, and railings to assist in<BR>
> movement at low-G, everything can be designed properly if some thought is<BR>
> put into it. Given a large enough radius, spinning a vessel would solve many<BR>
> problems (and create brand new ones to overcome, oooh goody!)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but tests have shown that 90% of humans will get violently ill if<BR>
they try moving around a spun habitat with an axis of less that about<BR>
half a kilometer! That's *why* the L5 designs call for such huge habitats.<BR>
And why nobody is going to try building the old-style "wheel" spce<BR>
stations.<BR>
<BR>
Another reason folks avoid "properly oriented" deckplans is that you<BR>
wind up with lots of *tiny* decks, or a ship that has *enourmous* air<BR>
resistance due to the large frontal area.<BR>
<BR>
The Scout design I've played with on and off is going to have three<BR>
decks, with the top one being *nothing* but the control room. And<BR>
you'll only be able to walk upright near the middle (the hull there is<BR>
a transparent dome from the floor on up)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:38:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> It's *ok* to violate such laws, after all, Jump drive does! It's just<BR>
>> that you need to *know* when you are breaking them, and what the<BR>
>> consequences might be. In the case of jump drives, if you went to a<BR>
>> *lot* of trouble, you could send a messages into the past, maybe even<BR>
>> get there yourself. But it'd be a *real* pain.... :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Could you drop me an email and explain how this would work?  And if it could<BR>
> happen by 'accident'?<BR>
<BR>
It'd be *real* hard to do it by accident. I haven't worked out the<BR>
details. I'd have to take one of the many examples on the web of *how*<BR>
FTL travel can be used to do this and modify it for the way things work<BR>
in Traveller. I've tried working it out from pure theory myself, and<BR>
keep messing up.  <BR>
<BR>
But one of the things required is moving at *very* close to the speed<BR>
of light. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:48:02 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Brian A Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:20 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard gravitics<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
> Thus, for any angle A you can make the simplifying assumption that<BR>
>only the mass along the length x (and the counterpart length x along<BR>
>an identical triangle reflected in the line r<BR>
>0 actually attracts your test mass. Therefore, for your test mass,<BR>
><BR>
> F(g) = G*S*(2*r*tan(A))/r^2 which simplifies to:<BR>
> F(g) = 2*G*S*tan(A)/r for any angle A. The formula becomes more<BR>
>accurate as A approaches pi radians, making tan(a) infinite (remember,<BR>
>this is an infinite line of mass), but for any *sufficiently long*<BR>
>line of masses it works even for lower values of A, and demonstrates<BR>
>an inverse linear relationship re. gravity.<BR>
><BR>
> The plane is almost exactly the same, except that S is mass/area and<BR>
>the triangle is a cone instead. Given that the area of the circle at<BR>
>the base of the cone (on the plane) is pi*(r*tan(A))^2, the force is<BR>
>thus:<BR>
><BR>
> F(g) = G*S*pi*r^2*tan(A)^2/r^2 which simplifies to<BR>
> F(g) = G*S*pi*tan(A)^2<BR>
><BR>
> Note that this value is constant for any given values of S and A, and<BR>
>thus explains the earlier comment about planes displaying a constant<BR>
>field.<BR>
><BR>
>Just a few quick calculations (hope I didn't lose anyone). Note that<BR>
>these involve *CLASSICAL* mechanics, without either relativity or<BR>
>quantum ANYTHING, it's a close enough approximation for most purposes<BR>
>(including shipboard gravity, if you can find the plane).<BR>
><BR>
>-Brian Quirt<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
So does it mean its useable or not?  <g><BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:34:36 -0700<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/31/00 11:30 AM, smithw@hartwick.edu issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Aesthetics.  Your vision of future space travel is<BR>
> more comfortable with cybernetically-enhanced<BR>
> spacemen, <BR>
<BR>
Alas, my "vision" is nothing more than a student's continuously evolving<BR>
education about the physical properties of the universe. (Through the eyes<BR>
of an avid Traveller player/GM since 1983.)<BR>
<BR>
> the Traveller one is happier with grav plates.<BR>
<BR>
Do you mean to say then, that "the Traveller one" is happier sans the<BR>
nagging bits about reality and science and all that claptrap?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:38:23 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits<BR>
<BR>
On Monday 29th May Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> Hey...what does happen when two ships emerge from j-space at the same<BR>
> co-ords? it must happen esp. in large fleet actions...<BR>
<BR>
In my understanding of Jump Space the second ship to emerge (by even a fraction<BR>
of a second)<BR>
will precipitate out of jump at the 100 diameter limit of the first ship. There<BR>
is -no- chance of them<BR>
interpenetrating.<BR>
<BR>
However, there is another danger that makes it prudent to keep a respectable<BR>
distance between<BR>
ships that jump as a fleet. Jump Flash. Canon says that ships emerge from jump<BR>
with a jump flash<BR>
that is visible across the system. The flash is therefore quite a large release<BR>
of energy ( I suspect<BR>
it's as large as that required to originally enter jump space) so close<BR>
proximity to an emerging ship<BR>
would cause you to take damage.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the<BR>
   source of all true art and science."   Albert Einstein (1879--1955)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2535<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.36]) by air-yc03.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 22:43:05 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2000 22:42:20 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA38476;<BR>
	Wed, 31 May 2000 22:41:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 31 May 2000 22:41:14 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA38436<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 22:41:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:41:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006010241.WAA38436@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2535<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2536</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/31/00 10:21:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2536<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
Re: Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Roc: Beowulf's name.<BR>
Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Starship Construction: numbers, combat, reference, decisions<BR>
Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Pinkerdoo's Grand Opening<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Re-Release of Space 1889<BR>
Re: Pinkerdoo's Grand Opening<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
[OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:23:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> 3.  As far as having one unified rank structure for the Army, Navy, and<BR>
> Marines, I believe the Canadians have one unified "defense force".  Does<BR>
> anybody know their rank structure?  That might be a good source of ideas.<BR>
><BR>
Canadian Armed Forces Ranks:<BR>
<BR>
Land Force Command<BR>
Air Command<BR>
Communication Command                Maritime Command<BR>
<BR>
General Officers<BR>
General                                                  Admiral<BR>
Lieutenant-General                              Vice-Admiral<BR>
Major-General                                      Rear-Admiral<BR>
Brigadier-General                                Commodore<BR>
<BR>
Senior Officers<BR>
Colonel                                                  Captain(N)<BR>
Lieutenant Colonel                               Commander<BR>
Major<BR>
Lieutenant-Commander<BR>
<BR>
Junior Officers<BR>
Captain                                                    Lieutenant(N)<BR>
Lieutenant                                               Sub-Lieutenant<BR>
Second-Lieutenant                                 Acting Sub-Lieutenant<BR>
<BR>
Subordinate Officers<BR>
Officer Cadet                                          Naval Cadet<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Non-Commissioned Ranks<BR>
Chief Warrant Officer                            Chief Petty Officer 1st<BR>
Class<BR>
Master Warrant Officer                         Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class<BR>
Warrant Officer                                       Petty Officer 1st<BR>
Class<BR>
Sergeant                                                    Petty Officer<BR>
2nd Class<BR>
Master Corporal                                       Master Seaman<BR>
Corporal                                                    Leading Seaman<BR>
Private                                                        Able Seaman<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:23:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Some Ideas on Current Military Rank (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> 3.  As far as having one unified rank structure for the Army, Navy, and<BR>
> Marines, I believe the Canadians have one unified "defense force".  Does<BR>
> anybody know their rank structure?  That might be a good source of ideas.<BR>
><BR>
Canadian Armed Forces Ranks:<BR>
<BR>
Land Force Command<BR>
Air Command<BR>
Communication Command                Maritime Command<BR>
<BR>
General Officers<BR>
General                                                  Admiral<BR>
Lieutenant-General                              Vice-Admiral<BR>
Major-General                                      Rear-Admiral<BR>
Brigadier-General                                Commodore<BR>
<BR>
Senior Officers<BR>
Colonel                                                  Captain(N)<BR>
Lieutenant Colonel                               Commander<BR>
Major<BR>
Lieutenant-Commander<BR>
<BR>
Junior Officers<BR>
Captain                                                    Lieutenant(N)<BR>
Lieutenant                                               Sub-Lieutenant<BR>
Second-Lieutenant                                 Acting Sub-Lieutenant<BR>
<BR>
Subordinate Officers<BR>
Officer Cadet                                          Naval Cadet<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Non-Commissioned Ranks<BR>
Chief Warrant Officer                            Chief Petty Officer 1st<BR>
Class<BR>
Master Warrant Officer                         Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class<BR>
Warrant Officer                                       Petty Officer 1st<BR>
Class<BR>
Sergeant                                                    Petty Officer<BR>
2nd Class<BR>
Master Corporal                                       Master Seaman<BR>
Corporal                                                    Leading Seaman<BR>
Private                                                        Able Seaman<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:57:16 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
I was rebuilding my mail files the other night and came across a post I<BR>
had made...part of it below...<BR>
<BR>
 'The problem,' said the Doctor, 'is that you are astonishingly bad at<BR>
utilising this diversity. Faced with an agrarian culture with a<BR>
non-linear temporal perception, do you send in crack squad of Zen<BR>
Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
The question that sprang to mind was: What sort of uniform would a crack<BR>
squad of zen buddhists wear?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:57:23 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Beowulf's name.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 5:36 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Back on topic, though, we are used to naming ships, planets, computers, or<BR>
> whatever, after characters from Earth mythology. In the OTU, there must<BR>
have<BR>
> been lots of other parallel mythologies developed, which will probably<BR>
also<BR>
> be used to name things. If the source of human myths is really some<BR>
> fundamental unifying thing which all humans have, like Jung's collective<BR>
> unconscious, then we would expect that the stories from the other<BR>
> mythologies to be fairly similar to the ones which we know today.<BR>
><BR>
> On the other hand, the alien races are likely to have their own<BR>
mythologies<BR>
> which are much different. If someone had lots of time to kill, they could<BR>
> think about the elements which define, for example, the Vargr POV, and<BR>
> distill these down into a set of principles for Vargr mythology.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Back in the old days when I had a campaign in full swing, that was probably<BR>
one of the few things that irked me about the OTU, that everything was<BR>
"old-earth-centric."  There are of course, a lot of stuff named with Vargr,<BR>
Aslan, et. al. names, but it just seemed that those things with a fuller<BR>
history than the others were those that came from "Old Terran history" and<BR>
the like.  In my campaign, to nark those players who hated Pepsi, I had<BR>
Pepsi win the cola wars and be brought out by one of the Traveller<BR>
mega-corps,and that was that!<BR>
<BR>
Many other Earth-related things I watered down and then built up detailed<BR>
backgrounds for other racially named things.  Beowolf I kept.  I knew of the<BR>
epic-story, but discounted that as to being what the class of trader was<BR>
named after, but I also hadn't heard of Niven's Beowolf either... so he was<BR>
a historical hero from what you might call the M:0 times, a free trader that<BR>
adventured into surrounding systems establishing new trade routes and<BR>
finding wealth and adventure before him... I didn't need more than that as I<BR>
could change the telling to the PC's as I needed (like our own history is<BR>
detailed differently depending upon the teller).<BR>
<BR>
I had a case-load of such stuff.  Equipment named after statesmen,<BR>
scientists, military men/women, etc. of the 1I and 2I, of Vargr heroes,<BR>
worlds, conflicts, of Aslan battles, families, and so forth, you name it, I<BR>
may have had it... Alas, these were all type and handwritten notes and have<BR>
since been irreplaceable lost to water damage.  But, it can be done and my<BR>
players certainly enjoyed hearing names other than "Enterprise" or "John<BR>
Henry" or "Sherman" or whatever.  Oh, I did endeavour to make most names<BR>
pronounceable where I could :^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:46:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh -- here's another way to approach the nokkonen/nettles<BR>
> connection, if there is one.  What's the scientific name<BR>
> for nokkonen?  I don't know what it is for nettles, but<BR>
> I'll bet someone else on the list does.<BR>
<BR>
I *think* nettles are <something> urtica.<BR>
<BR>
Also, there's a fairy tale about a bunch of princes who were turned<BR>
into swans. Their sister had the make sirts out of nettles to turn them<BR>
back into humans.<BR>
<BR>
> Would this system be used only for biological subjects, or<BR>
> would geological stuff be included as well?<BR>
<BR>
For *minerals*, yes. But expect any precious or semi-precious stones to<BR>
be marketed under different names, *especially* if they are common on<BR>
one world ("Regina bluestone"), and rare on others ("Mora turquoise"). <BR>
<BR>
The geological name would be something else entirely (I think turquoise<BR>
is a form of apatite?). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:07:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway? [Partially OT]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On the other hand, the alien races are likely to have their own mythologies<BR>
>> which are much different. If someone had lots of time to kill, they could<BR>
>> think about the elements which define, for example, the Vargr POV, and<BR>
>> distill these down into a set of principles for Vargr mythology.<BR>
>><BR>
> Of course it's also possible that the Vargr don't *have* mythology,<BR>
> if we mean stories about gods, goddesses, etc. (Yes, I'm sure mythology<BR>
> has other meanings, but I'm going to use this one for the sake of<BR>
> argument.) Perhaps belief in God or Gods is peculiar to humans.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't know what the canon says; if it says that the Vargr have<BR>
> gods/spirits/etc.,<BR>
> then I'll accept it. However, I'd prefer at least some elements of human<BR>
> cultures to be absent among aliens. I don't think one can create convincing<BR>
> aliens unless one specifies which human universals are unique to our<BR>
> species.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, given their cultural focus on charisma, they jusy<BR>
about *have* to have myths and legends about ancient high charisma<BR>
leaders. And over time tales of their deeds might grow to god-like<BR>
proportions. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:09:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Charles Collin writes:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> Of course, my overall favorite "future tank" is the wonderful "spider<BR>
>> tank" (see, e.g., "Ghost in the Machine").  This combines the terrain<BR>
>> abilities of a mech with the sturdiness of a tank.  Plus it looks cool!<BR>
><BR>
> A legged walker vehicle is not obviously a bad idea, its just that you want <BR>
> it to be low to the ground with a small frontal area rather than humanoid.<BR>
<BR>
Also, for a six or more legged vehicle, you can *always* have at least<BR>
three legs on the ground forming a stable tripod. With 8 legs, you even<BR>
have two spares. <BR>
<BR>
The big problem is ground pressure. Even with large pads on the end,<BR>
those legs will sink *deep* into ordinary ground.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:03:17 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Starship Construction: numbers, combat, reference, decisions<BR>
<BR>
In earlier rants, I spluttered about "aesthetics" and<BR>
"simplicity", chanting mantras as though repeating them<BR>
would make them so.<BR>
<BR>
Well, my wife gave me my pills, and I'm feeling much<BR>
better.<BR>
<BR>
And now, before my wife finds out, let me explain a<BR>
little bit.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I. Numbers<BR>
<BR>
I've been generating starships for years now.  Okay,<BR>
most of us have.  I also happened to be reading up<BR>
about user interface design -- what's good versus<BR>
what's bad.  The book said that poor design is so<BR>
prevalent (and there are tangible rules that determine<BR>
what works well for the human eye) that, generally,<BR>
a person wouldn't know good user interfaces if one <BR>
came up and bit him/her on the butt.<BR>
<BR>
That got me a-thinkin'.  I had been toying with squeezing<BR>
QSDS into a Book 2 mold; that is, I was actually working<BR>
on filling the Book 2 tables with data from QSDS.  Why not?<BR>
<BR>
Well here's why not: the numbers have changed.  A lot.<BR>
A Scout's jump drive went from a whopping 10 tons down<BR>
to a dinky 2 tons.  Maneuver drives split into fusion<BR>
rockets or reactionless.  Everything changed value.<BR>
<BR>
So I've been developing this attitude.  I like the<BR>
concepts incorporated into FFS2.  I like the options<BR>
and the comprehensiveness.  But I feel kind of slap-<BR>
happy about the numbers -- after all, they changed<BR>
before, how important can they be?  I mean, even<BR>
one gravity can be sloshed up to 10 m/s/s without<BR>
anyone getting hurt.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
II. Combat<BR>
<BR>
Also, I wonder why all the rules are really there.  For<BR>
the sake of flexibility?  Well, maybe.  But I wonder<BR>
if this kind of flexibility is at odds with a fast<BR>
combat system.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe that's what all my worries boil down to: <BR>
the combat system.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
III. Reference<BR>
<BR>
Eris made a great point earlier.  He said that there<BR>
would come a point where the crew's survival may well<BR>
DEPEND on the quality and placement of a ship's<BR>
radiators.  I agree, and FFS2 should provide that<BR>
kind of information to us.  However, I think that<BR>
most ship data is like those radiator fins: if FFS2<BR>
gives formulae on how to figure out where yer radiators <BR>
are, then keep FFS2 on the shelf and take it down when <BR>
you need to find out.  But until then, why would we care, <BR>
and why should we have to bother with figuring them out <BR>
ahead of time, just in case?  Unless, of course, the<BR>
referee has something up the sleeve.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose I'm thinking QSDS should be more of a<BR>
"close-enough" design system, made for very rapid<BR>
prototyping or something like that.  Of course, <BR>
nothing could be faster than<BR>
<BR>
   200 ton hull ok.<BR>
   Jump-2 ok 4 tons + 40 tons fuel.<BR>
   Maneuver-2 ok 2 tons + 1 ton fuel.<BR>
   say 10 staterooms = 40 tons ok.<BR>
   give it 2 x 3-2-0-0 lasers.<BR>
   A1 P2 J0 sensors.<BR>
   Power plant?  Who cares!  It fits.<BR>
   Cargo?  Oh, about 50 tons.<BR>
   Air/Raft?  Okay.<BR>
<BR>
Now them's the basics.  You can fly that beastie around<BR>
all you like.  And when something strange happens and<BR>
component X becomes critical, well I can tell the players <BR>
to whip out FFS2 and figure out what they can do (or I <BR>
can make a ruling).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
IV. Decisions<BR>
<BR>
Did I already mention this?  Chad Russel gave me the<BR>
idea of having all-or-nothing options to starship <BR>
design.  Instead of being able to have-it-all-in-a-<BR>
really-small-hull, you're forced to choose your<BR>
performance characteristics with painful choices.<BR>
No longer can you waffle about how much of this<BR>
versus how much of that can you have... some<BR>
secondary parts of the ship, such as armor and<BR>
screens, and perhaps sensors, are either fitted at the <BR>
best possible level for that ship at its TL, or else <BR>
it's at the default level.  This still allows more <BR>
options than anyone would ever want, yet forces us <BR>
to make decisions about what kind of ship we're really <BR>
building.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:31:02 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
Robert<BR>
<BR>
Asked <BR>
<BR>
> I was rebuilding my mail files the other night and came across a post I<BR>
> had made...part of it below...<BR>
> <BR>
>  'The problem,' said the Doctor, 'is that you are astonishingly bad at<BR>
> utilising this diversity. Faced with an agrarian culture with a<BR>
> non-linear temporal perception, do you send in crack squad of Zen<BR>
> Buddhists?<BR>
> <BR>
> The question that sprang to mind was: What sort of uniform would a crack<BR>
> squad of zen buddhists wear?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
If  you have to ask grasshopper you do not fully understand the <BR>
question.<BR>
<BR>
Actually it would be orange in color, though normaly a robe I bet <BR>
they would be tighter fiting.  With a basic equipment belt.  They <BR>
would only carry what they needed for the mission.<BR>
<BR>
My 2cr<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:01:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Pinkerdoo's Grand Opening<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFCB4B.C2666760<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
Pinkerdoo Design Group is proud to announce it's Regina Wide Information<BR>
Service Site - Please drop by and visit us at<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo<BR>
<BR>
Remember - some times it takes an odd design to complete an odd job!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFCB4B.C2666760<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =<BR>
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3017.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D769145904-01062000>Pinkerdoo Design=20<BR>
Group is proud to announce it's Regina Wide Information Service Site - =<BR>
Please=20<BR>
drop by and visit us at</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D769145904-01062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D769145904-01062000><A=20<BR>
href=3D"http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo">http://members.home.net/pinker=<BR>
doo</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D769145904-01062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D769145904-01062000>Remember - some=20<BR>
times it takes an odd design to complete an odd job!</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D769145904-01062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D769145904-01062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFCB4B.C2666760--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:19:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Little ships that usually land should have decks<BR>
> paralell to the main thrust axis, to improve<BR>
> access to cargo bays and such.<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily true. Ships that take off and land horizontally, yes.<BR>
But ships can land and take off vertically. And cargo access is still<BR>
fairly easy if they are designed properly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:25:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re-Release of Space 1889<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi-<BR>
>   Just saw where about a dozen items of Space 1889 material is being <BR>
> released/re-released by Heliograph Inc. in July. Even is using the old logo. <BR>
> Anyone know anything about this company/ who this is? While its not a game I <BR>
> play, I'm interested anytime GDW products get put to print.<BR>
<BR>
This is a person (or perhaps persons, I forget) who has been publishing<BR>
a Space:1889 fanzine for some time, and used to maintain the mailing<BR>
list. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:19:36 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Pinkerdoo's Grand Opening<BR>
<BR>
> Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Pinkerdoo Design Group is proud to announce it's Regina Wide<BR>
> Information Service Site - Please drop by and visit us at<BR>
> <BR>
> http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo<BR>
> <BR>
> Remember - some times it takes an odd design to complete an odd job!<BR>
<BR>
That motto reminds me of my AuricTech slogan (see .sig file).  Tres<BR>
cool!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:50:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
<BR>
>> intro to the TV show<BR>
><BR>
>Shows how much I know, Shaft was a /movie/, not a TV show.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?  And, was<BR>
Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:53:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Adventurer, Merchant, he's the guy with the gun.<BR>
><BR>
>Beowulf Shaeffer with a gun?  Worst he ever did intentionally was punch a<BR>
>guy in the face.  Unintentionally he released a quantum black hole which<BR>
>proceeded to eat the bad guy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Geez, I know you can quote me "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" Penguin<BR>
Boy, but you can't quote "Army of Darkness"?  .<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:01:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
<BR>
    OK, right now, we have "Dark Star", & "Rocky Horror Picture Show" as<BR>
unofficial official Traveller Movies, I think we should have a third.  "Army<BR>
of Darkness" as Ash is the average Traveller Character.<BR>
    Just read these quotes from the movie & think Traveller Character on a<BR>
TL 1 world.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: It's a trick. Get an axe.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Shelia: You once found me beautiful.<BR>
Ash: Honey, you got real ugly.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: Shop smart, shop S-mart!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
[About his shotgun.]<BR>
Ash: Alright, you primitive screwheads, listen up: THIS... is my BOOM STICK!<BR>
<BR>
<< I had a character say this in a game once.  >><BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: You ain't leading but two things right now: Jack and Shit. And Jack<BR>
just left town.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
[Sheila wants to apologize to Ash]<BR>
Ash: First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me. Blow.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Sheila: But what of all those sweet words you spoke in private?<BR>
Ash: Oh that's just what we call pillow talk baby, that's all.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: [to the Witch] Yo, she-bitch! Let's go!<BR>
<BR>
<<  Again here as well this was said to a Zho Female. >><BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
[Upon getting the powered glove in place of his right hand]<BR>
Ash: Groovy.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand<BR>
things with alloys and compositions and things with ... molecular<BR>
structures.<BR>
<BR>
<<  The Ship's Engineer said this. >><BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
[In a passionate moment of romance]<BR>
Ash: Gimme some sugar, baby.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: Klaatu borada nikto.<BR>
Wise man: Again.<BR>
Ash: Klaatu borada nikto.<BR>
Wise man: Again.<BR>
Ash: I got it, I got it. I know your damn words, right?<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: Klaatu borada n... Necktie... Nickel... It's an "N" word, it's<BR>
definitely an "N" word!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
[After shooting Bad Ash]<BR>
Ash: [to Bad Ash] Good... Bad... I'm the guy with the gun.<BR>
<BR>
<<  I once said this in real life.  Don't ask. >><BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Arthur: Are all men from the future loud-mouthed braggarts?<BR>
Ash: Nope. Just me baby... Just me.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
[As undead Ash stands triumphant on catapult]<BR>
Ash: Buckle up Bonehead. 'Cause you're goin' for a ride!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Demon Lady: I'll swallow your soul!<BR>
Ash: Come get some.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
Ash: Lady, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask you to leave the store.<BR>
Possessed woman: Who the hell are you?<BR>
Ash: Name's Ash. [cocks shotgun] Housewares.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ----<BR>
[Last line]<BR>
Ash: Hail to the king, baby.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:08:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Brian Jenkins <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><<<'Es not dead, 'es just pinning for the Fjords.>>><BR>
><BR>
>Scandanavian   'ero, Lovely Plumage.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lovely Plumage be damned, 'es dead.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2536<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (rly-zb03.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.3]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:21:02 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:20:34 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id BAA44921;<BR>
	Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:19:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:19:19 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id BAA44836<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:19:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:19:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006010519.BAA44836@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2536<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2537</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/1/00 6:33:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2537<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Beowulf's name<BR>
Re: Vargr legends<BR>
Military Ranks Revised<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
RE: Fleet Combat in T4<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Ore Processing module for GT (was GT Module Idea...)<BR>
RE: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
re:  Religon: Word of God<BR>
Re: Re-Release of Space 1889<BR>
Other Traveller Movies<BR>
Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
Re: Imperial Data Package (was OT : Stinging Nettles)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:12:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>The consul does seem to have recalled one of the first<BR>
>lessons from diplomacy school:  When negotiating with<BR>
>humans, no matter how unreasonable or insane, smile.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    But, all humans are both unreasonable & insane, & never smile at them,<BR>
they think you are baring your fangs & that when they get really dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
>In the group shot, the dagger that the consul about to slip<BR>
>into the Army negotiator's renal artery is obscured by his<BR>
>(Capt. Berry's) right arm, but you might see it if you look<BR>
>closely.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    *weg*  But, you forget, under than mild mannered Captain's Uniform,<BR>
there is a Superhero, Penguin Boy,  Righter of wrongs, hero to millions, &<BR>
friend to Flash Gordon.<BR>
<BR>
>--Glenn MacRae Goffin, Esquire<BR>
><BR>
>Honorary Consul to Terra<BR>
>of the Government of the Planet Mongo<BR>
>and Its Most Munificent and Protuberant Ruler<BR>
>Ming the Merciless<BR>
><BR>
>Hail Ming!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Didn't Flash remove Ming from the rullership of Mongo a while back?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:01:25 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Little ships that usually land should have decks<BR>
> > paralell to the main thrust axis, to improve<BR>
> > access to cargo bays and such.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not necessarily true. Ships that take off and land horizontally, yes.<BR>
> But ships can land and take off vertically. And cargo access is still<BR>
> fairly easy if they are designed properly.<BR>
<BR>
So, I go off to BayCon for a week (Greyhound takes two days each way<BR>
between Baton Rouge and San Jose), and I miss the beginning of another<BR>
round of the "parallel vs. perpendicular decks" debate?  That'll teach<BR>
_me_ to go without TML access....<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, here's a possible compromise:<BR>
<BR>
1.  Ship deck layout will usually be determined by the interaction<BR>
between function and hull configuration.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Ships intended for routine landing operations on planetary surfaces<BR>
will usually have decks aligned to be parallel with the planet's surface<BR>
while landed.  They will generally be arranged IAW the following<BR>
guidelines:<BR>
<BR>
    a.  Ships with elongated structures (such as Needle, Wedge, or Long<BR>
Cylinder configurations) will tend to have decks parallel with the<BR>
primary thrust axis, to improve aerodynamic performance.  These ships<BR>
will normally land and launch horizontally, in a manner resembling<BR>
Terran aircraft.<BR>
<BR>
    b.  Ships with compact structures (such as Sphere or Cube<BR>
configurations) will tend to have decks perpendicular to the primary<BR>
thrust axis, to allow thrust to supplement artifical gravity in deep<BR>
space.  These ships will normally land and launch vertically.<BR>
<BR>
    c.  Ships with intermediate structures (such as Short Cylinder or<BR>
Short Box configurations) may have either configuration, based either on<BR>
the preferences of the naval architect or on unique design<BR>
specifications.<BR>
<BR>
3.  Ships not expected to land routinely on planetary surfaces will<BR>
normally have decks perpendicular to the primary thrust axis, as in 2.b.<BR>
above, for similar reasons.<BR>
<BR>
4.  Regardless of deck configuration, any given ship will normally be<BR>
designed to allow the most efficient possible cargo handling<BR>
arrangements consistent with the ship's primary function and<BR>
configuration.<BR>
<BR>
5.  As with all matters in which human choice plays a role, the<BR>
guidelines above are not to be considered as hard-and-fast rules. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 16:25:20 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
><BR>
> >>    There is also a second hero named Beowulf Sheafer from Larry Niven's<BR>
> >>Know Universe, IIRC, who was a free trader, & while he was one bad<BR>
> >>mother, he didn't run around & tear the arms off or kicking the snot out<BR>
> >>of ogres. He did go to the center of the Milky Way galaxy.  He has been<BR>
> >>to every human colonized world.  He kicked the snot out of the Kzin.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Any human that can kick the snot out of Kzin in hand to hand combat, *and*<BR>
> while unarmed really *is* one bad muther!<BR>
><BR>
>     Even badder than Shaft, but not as bad as Hawk.  I do believe that Hawk<BR>
> could kick the snot out of 2 Kzin in Hand to Hand combat while unarmed, with<BR>
> one hand tied behind his back & drunk.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
And we all know what happened to Hawk...he got his own space station and beat up<BR>
on a para-cosmic entity with god like powers...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:42:00 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Beowulf's name<BR>
<BR>
"The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Back in the old days when I had a campaign in full swing, that was probably<BR>
>one of the few things that irked me about the OTU, that everything was<BR>
>"old-earth-centric."<BR>
<BR>
I brought that up during the IN playtest. Supposedly there are about 160<BR>
Tigress Class battleships (one 8-ship squadron per sector). The great cats<BR>
of Earth coulp provide maybe 30 class names, and some of them would be quite<BR>
awkward-sounding (Lynxess, Ouncess, Chetaess, Jaguarundess). After that I<BR>
think whoever comes up with names for navy ships would have had to fall back<BR>
on 'alien carnivore/pouncers with felinoid shapes'. Yet the three named<BR>
Tigress Class ships we hear of serving in the Spinward Marches just happens<BR>
to be named after three of the Earth cats, and three of the most euphonious<BR>
ones to boot (Tigress, Pantheress, Lioness). <BR>
<BR>
>I had a case-load of such stuff.  Equipment named after statesmen,<BR>
>scientists, military men/women, etc. of the 1I and 2I, of Vargr heroes,<BR>
>worlds, conflicts, of Aslan battles, families, and so forth, you name it, I<BR>
>may have had it... <BR>
<BR>
In my work on the history of the Sword Worlds I came up with two names for<BR>
legendary Vilani swords. As far as I'm concerned, Tanoose is a corruption<BR>
of the Vilani _Danuuz_ and Steel was originally named _Igliim_ -- the name<BR>
of a legendary Vilani sword that meant, literally, 'steel'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:48:59 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr legends<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, given their cultural focus on charisma, they just<BR>
>about *have* to have myths and legends about ancient high charisma<BR>
>leaders. And over time tales of their deeds might grow to god-like<BR>
>proportions. <BR>
 <BR>
_Vargr_ has the tale of the legendary hero Gvurrdon who gave his name to<BR>
the sector. OTOH, that tale was 3500 years old and turned out to be not<BR>
only factual, but so little distorted over the years that it could be<BR>
used as a sort of 'treasure map'. So I guess that example can be used to<BR>
'prove' both positions.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"...all at once I UNDERSTOOD just WHY it is that men FIGHT each other.<BR>
I suddenly saw the ANSWER to all this SENSELESS VIOLENCE that afflicts us!<BR>
<BR>
But, like, I didn't write it down or anything and, like, y'know how it is -<BR>
next morning I had totally forgotten what it WAS, man."<BR>
<BR>
			"DR and Quinch get drafted" from _2000 AD_<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:26:50 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for all the advice and info.  I took some<BR>
of them, tweaked of course.  For instance, Peter<BR>
Newman's "Ground Captain" suggestion I took,<BR>
but changed it to "Troop Captain", which seemed<BR>
more compatible to me with the Marine Force<BR>
Captain and the Army COACC Flight Captain<BR>
that I made.<BR>
<BR>
I thought about trying to wedge Warrant Officers<BR>
in, but instead, I made up rank tables for Imperial<BR>
Army COACC and Wet Navy branches, which<BR>
plug into the overall Army chain of command.<BR>
Some titles lifted from RAF structure, such as<BR>
"Pilot Officer" and "Wing Commander" (on equal<BR>
rank with Navy Commanders and Marine Force<BR>
Commanders, naturally :-)<BR>
<BR>
Does COACC say anything about service ranks?<BR>
<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/milranks.htm<BR>
<BR>
Tell me what you think.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:48:35 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 10. Next year, the third annual (insert blurb here) Traveller Party!<BR>
<BR>
The Burbaker's Franchise meeting? Set up the room to look like one?<BR>
Maybe, down stairs?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:19 +0300<BR>
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
 > Now, all of this is just hand-waving to some degree, but it is<BR>
 > sufficiently convincing (IMO) to allow play in a mech universe without<BR>
 > snapping my suspension of disbelief.  This is especially the case with<BR>
 > smaller mechs (a la Heavy Gear*). The really big monsters (a la Battle<BR>
 > Tech) I don't really like.<BR>
<BR>
	I tried to design mechs with TNE/FF&S1, and the results were not<BR>
	very impressive. There were problems with large surface areas<BR>
	(too heavy armor), huge ground pressures and massive suspension/<BR>
	locomotion systems. Eventually I found very little reason for<BR>
	building a huge mech when a small tank would be much better<BR>
	vehicle in most situations.<BR>
<BR>
	However, a small-scale mech which can walk inside a building<BR>
	might be convenient in some situations. The "exo-suits" in<BR>
	"Jovian Chronicles" are nice examples, and similar vehicles can<BR>
	be build with FF&S1.<BR>
- --<BR>
       Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi<BR>
       Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:12:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
<BR>
>>     Even badder than Shaft, but not as bad as Hawk.  I do believe that<BR>
Hawk<BR>
>> could kick the snot out of 2 Kzin in Hand to Hand combat while unarmed,<BR>
with<BR>
>> one hand tied behind his back & drunk.<BR>
<BR>
>And we all know what happened to Hawk...he got his own space station and<BR>
beat up<BR>
>on a para-cosmic entity with god like powers...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You forgot about one thing, Other Rob, you forgot about one thing, & as<BR>
I am a king gentlebeing, I will tell you what it is, but I will also give<BR>
some spoiler space so the people who do not want to know, will not have to<BR>
know.<BR>
1<BR>
2<BR>
3<BR>
4<BR>
5<BR>
6<BR>
7<BR>
8<BR>
9<BR>
Spoiler Space<BR>
1<BR>
2<BR>
3<BR>
4<BR>
5<BR>
6<BR>
7<BR>
8<BR>
9<BR>
Spoiler Space Ends<BR>
<BR>
    Sisko is a Demi-God, or as close to a Demi-God as you can get, his<BR>
father was human, his mother though was one of the Bajoran Prophits.  *weg*<BR>
So he could punch Q because he was Q's equal.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:02:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
>    The reason I ask is, my Trinity campaign world was initally built in<BR>
>Mekton Z... with Mecha a large part of life...powersuits needed on the<BR>
>surface for survival...roadstriker scale for PC combat and the 30 ft<BR>
>giants being the 'big stick' for the game...<BR>
><BR>
>    Would a G:T/G:Mecha crossover work?<BR>
<BR>
I reckon it would work well.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller 2300 had mechs, and Trav 2300 is not too disimilar from CT in<BR>
feel.<BR>
<BR>
I have done a Jovian Chronicles game that morphed into a Trav2300 game<BR>
when the Jovians went interstellar.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:10:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Fleet Combat in T4<BR>
<BR>
> I'm wondering, since I didn't get Imperial Squadrons,<BR>
> what fleet combat is like in T4.  Anybody done it?<BR>
<BR>
I've got Imperial Squadrons. I had a subscription.<BR>
But I've never used it for anything.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:23:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> So, there's this epic hero named Beowulf, and he runs around tearing out<BR>
> arms and kicking the snot out of ogres. He's one bad mother... (Shut your<BR>
> mouth!) I'm just talking about Beowulf! (We can dig it.) Ahem. So anyway,<BR>
> there's this surly and burly hero, and somebody decides to name a type of<BR>
> free trader after him. A free trader. Where's the sense in that? How did<BR>
> this happen exactly? I mean, I suppose Loren could give the "real life"<BR>
> version if it's memorable.<BR>
<BR>
There's also this well-known, well at least to SF fans,<BR>
man-about-the-universe<BR>
called Beowulf Schaeffer...<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 04:27:29 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ore Processing module for GT (was GT Module Idea...)<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:14:44 -0500<BR>
> From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
> Subject: GT Module Idea Requet for comments<BR>
...<BR>
> what I am looking for is ideas for an ore refining/processing module<BR>
> there isnt one in GURPS Vehicles Volume 2<BR>
<BR>
I was working on this when more pressing matters came up.<BR>
<BR>
Best source I found was two NASA studies from 1977, both included in<BR>
SP-428, Space Resources and Space Settlements. I'll summarize the data,<BR>
and you can draw your own conclusions.<BR>
<BR>
The first outfit is for producing volatiles and heavy metals from<BR>
asteroids, using solar furnaces (p. 182):<BR>
<BR>
"The necessary equipment includes that for mining and processing<BR>
(crushers, metal and volatile extractors), storage containers, radiators,<BR>
and support equipment (piping, blowers, "nets," and "bags")...<BR>
"The mass of processing equipment corresponds with the throughput of<BR>
material. The 50-kg/sec [4,320 tonne/day] mass flow, considered the<BR>
maximum case, is discussed here. (For other mass-flow rates, estimates are<BR>
provided below.) The equipment includes: miners (three at 50 tons),<BR>
crushers (two at 75 tons), a magnetic separator (10 tons), blowers (5 at 2<BR>
tons), volatile extraction baker and mirror (200 tons), and volatile<BR>
storage and radiators (two at 350 tons). The total mass requirements<BR>
depend on throughput as given below: 0 kg/sec, 300 tons; 4 kg/sec, 560<BR>
tons; 10 kg/sec, 650 tons; 50 kg/sec, 1500 tons."<BR>
<BR>
The second outfit is for strip-mining and processing lunar materials<BR>
(pp. 282-283):<BR>
<BR>
Processing Modules<BR>
				Size, m		Mass, tons*	Power, kW<BR>
A. Plagioclase and ilmenite ores<BR>
1. Coarse seive (<1cm)		4x4x0.2		2		2<BR>
2. Electrostatic sizer		35x20x2.5	30		50<BR>
3. Magnetic separator		20x20x2		30		200<BR>
4. Electrostatic separator	15x10x2.5	15		20<BR>
Total						77		272<BR>
<BR>
B. Fine ilmenite<BR>
1. Magnetic separator		10x10x2		15		100<BR>
2. Electrostatic separator	10x5x2.5	10		15<BR>
Total						25		115<BR>
<BR>
*Mass values are highly uncertain -- taken from terrestrial experience<BR>
where possible. <BR>
<BR>
"Each module in [this table] is sized to accept 220 tons/hr..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
When you're satisfied with your modules, why don't you send them to me for<BR>
inclusion in GT: Starships as a submission? The guidelines and such are<BR>
at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.io.com/~thrash/starship.html<BR>
<BR>
Ignore all the dates and timelines -- the project is hopelessly behind<BR>
schedule as it is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:51:29 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> [After shooting Bad Ash]<BR>
> Ash: [to Bad Ash] Good... Bad... I'm the guy with the gun.<BR>
<BR>
I have this film on  DVD  (mail-ordered  from  the  US)  and  VHS<BR>
(purchased in UK store).  The *UK* version has a  different  line<BR>
for some reason:<BR>
<BR>
[After shooting Bad Ash]<BR>
Ash: [to Bad Ash] I ain't *that* good!<BR>
<BR>
I have no idea why this should be different.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:59:26 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
> >Shows how much I know, Shaft was a /movie/, not a TV show.<BR>
><BR>
>  Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
>  OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?<BR>
>  And, was Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
<BR>
Ahem.<BR>
Shaft came out in 1975 or thereabouts.<BR>
<BR>
The one with Samuel Jackosn in it is a remake.<BR>
<BR>
You shoulda seen our spur of the moment game at an earlier MegaRoleplaying<BR>
session<BR>
"Five Brother Pimps in New York", we'all spent the first hour describing our<BR>
wardrobes, hair styles, cars, guns, apartments and bitches (in order of<BR>
importance) to each other. We wuz gettin outta hand until Mama came along<BR>
and whupped our asses.<BR>
<BR>
Interstate '75 has a lot to answer for.<BR>
<BR>
Then there was the game we played driving round town in a hot FJ Holden with<BR>
chrome-plated grease nipples and double reverse overhead twin-cam door<BR>
handles  searching for the elusive alloy head --  HoonQuest !<BR>
<BR>
Or the game where we played the five girls from "True Bliss" (New Zealand's<BR>
answer to the Spice Girls, and the progenitors of Australia's "Bardot" ) who<BR>
saved the All Blacks (New Zealand's rugby team for the uncultured lot in<BR>
America) from the clutches of Dr. Evil.<BR>
<BR>
Or the new White Wolf hit game "Smurf : the Embraced, er, the Embarrased" at<BR>
the last con....<BR>
Smurfette in leather with fangs is enough to make Azrael go "Mrow?"<BR>
<BR>
I'm not even going to try for an Ob Trav:<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:10:30 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: re:  Religon: Word of God<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Those were really good posts.  Keep it up!  I, for one,<BR>
>would like to know more about church doctrine -- what<BR>
>exactly are their beliefs?  What did the original prophets<BR>
>actually say in their preaching?  The couple of paragraphs<BR>
>that you provided piqued my interest.<BR>
<BR>
The doctrine was the hardest part of the article to write.  I didn't anything<BR>
really wacky, I had written up some of the more wacky religions for Luhtala in<BR>
the Reformation Coalition.  I also didn't want anything science fictionish, such<BR>
as the Church of Stellar Divinity, where the stars are actually divine beings. <BR>
I wanted something that would feel like it  could be a real religion today.<BR>
<BR>
As written the doctrine is kind of vague.  Members of the Word of God should try<BR>
to help the helpless and if they obey the laws of the religion, they go to<BR>
paradise.  I guess I didn't detail those laws very much other than saying they<BR>
are vegitarians.  I guess they are not supposed to kill sentient creatures<BR>
except in self defense, where self defense extends to the nation state too. <BR>
They shouldn't lie, cheat, or steal.  I am kind of at a loss for more details.<BR>
<BR>
If you have any ideas for this please suggest them.<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:06:10 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re-Release of Space 1889<BR>
<BR>
>From: HighTraveller@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re-Release of Space 1889<BR>
><BR>
>  Just saw where about a dozen items of Space 1889 material is being<BR>
>released/re-released by Heliograph Inc. in July. Even is using the old logo.<BR>
>Anyone know anything about this company/ who this is? While its not a game I <BR>
>play, I'm interested anytime GDW products get put to print.<BR>
<BR>
  See the news release at:  www.heliograph.com/trmgs/trmgs4/ether10.shtml<BR>
General site is:  www.heliograph.com/<BR>
Also see:  http://www.heliograph.com/trmgs/<BR>
<BR>
  These people do great stuff - I have the first compilation of their fan-<BR>
zine (TRMGS), and am looking forward to getting the second and on-going<BR>
publications.<BR>
<BR>
  If you end up interested in it, RAFM still has the molds for the Space <BR>
1889 figure line, and will likely do further custom orders as volume<BR>
justifies them; their last one (early `99?) came in at a very reasonable<BR>
$1 US per infantry-man, and $2 per cavalry/gashant-rider combo.<BR>
<BR>
  AFAIC, it's pretty hard to go wrong in assuming that GDW-origin games<BR>
will be pretty damned good.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:05:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Other Traveller Movies<BR>
<BR>
how about Little Shop of Horrors?<BR>
<BR>
or Buckaroo Banzai<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:54:12 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
Bureau of Imperial Interstellar Affairs <BR>
Fleet Combat Questionnaire<BR>
<BR>
INSTRUCTIONS<BR>
<BR>
This survey has been downloaded into your pocket computer<BR>
via the Starport Authority of this installation.  Please<BR>
answer the following questions using your standard glyph<BR>
system, and the SA computers will collate and translate<BR>
for the B.I.I.A.  Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
If you've never done any fleet combat, thank you and<BR>
have a nice day.<BR>
<BR>
1. How much fleet combat have you done?<BR>
<BR>
2. When was your first (estimated) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
3. When was your last (est) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
4. Which milieux were your fleet combats in?<BR>
<BR>
5. To the best of your knowledge, what were the<BR>
   rough compositions of your fleets?<BR>
<BR>
6. How satsfying were the fleet combat sessions?<BR>
<BR>
7. What do you like about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
8. What do you dislike about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
9. Do you have any additional comments?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:21:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Data Package (was OT : Stinging Nettles)<BR>
<BR>
> In the Imperium, the two naming systems in use are<BR>
based on Terran and<BR>
> Sylean cladistic methods ; the classical Vilani<BR>
taxonomical system is<BR>
> only used by the OTU equivalents of New Age<BR>
enthusiasts, being based on<BR>
> leg number, colour, texture, etc.<BR>
><BR>
I would have thought that classical Vilani taxonomical<BR>
system would have had<BR>
edibility (or lack of it) as key part of its<BR>
discription.<BR>
<BR>
Come to think of it - I'd bet Vilani has a lot of<BR>
different words to discribe edibility<BR>
and food in general - words that mean - 'game that must<BR>
be hung for at least a week'<BR>
'food that smells nice but will kill you' (which is<BR>
probably a synonym for treachery). The<BR>
direct translation of 'poison' is probably 'bad food'<BR>
or perhaps even 'unknown food.'<BR>
<BR>
Vilani culture is probably heavily influenced by the<BR>
insecurity of their food supply.<BR>
High status members of the family are probably served<BR>
last by tradition (unmarried men<BR>
eat first at a guess). They are (or were)  probably<BR>
terribly conservative in their eating<BR>
habits, sticking to what they know. Chefs are rated on<BR>
their reliability rather<BR>
than their innovation.<BR>
<BR>
Fast Food Chains, where you know what you are going to<BR>
get whereever the chain is<BR>
located, are really popular with the Vilani. Each<BR>
eatery will have discreet Vilani logo<BR>
indicating that the the vendor can trace his wares all<BR>
the way back to a particular<BR>
farm.<BR>
<BR>
Dishes might be served seperately in the French style<BR>
the better to know precisely<BR>
what you are eating.<BR>
<BR>
Hosts eat before guests, eating first at a friend's<BR>
house is a sign of trust. Instead of the<BR>
weather Vilani discuss food quality. The Vilani<BR>
equivilent of the Food Standards<BR>
Agency has more legal enforcement powers than the<BR>
police and its director has a<BR>
status akin to that of a Supreme Court Judge (or<BR>
perhaps the Pope). Devout households<BR>
give thanks after the meal not before<BR>
<BR>
Oh look Ma - a tangent.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Plenty of potential for dodgy deals and bureaucratic<BR>
bungles here.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Def.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2537<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za01.mx.aol.com (rly-za01.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.97]) by air-za01.mail.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:33:42 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:33:21 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA63235;<BR>
	Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:32:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:31:58 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA63195<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:31:58 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:31:58 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006011331.JAA63195@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2537<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2538</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/1/00 10:58:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2538<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
RE: Pinkerdoo's Grand Opening<BR>
Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Starship Construction: numbers, combat, reference, decisions<BR>
Fleet Combat Questionaire  TML 99-2537<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
Re: Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2537<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:45:30 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/1/00 12:13:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
rhoughto@one.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
> The question that sprang to mind was: What sort of uniform would a crack<BR>
>  squad of zen buddhists wear?<BR>
<BR>
Saffron camouflage?<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:48:32 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
Could you use Group Captain in the COACC ranks ? It's a RAF rank above<BR>
Wing Commander. I think it fits, but YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
You might try Air Vice Marshall following that.<BR>
<BR>
Try Regimental Sergeant Major for the Army, and drop Sergeant Major down<BR>
one. You could then lose First Sergeant in the Army, I think this fits<BR>
better, but then I'm a Brit ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks for all the advice and info.  I took some<BR>
> of them, tweaked of course.  For instance, Peter<BR>
> Newman's "Ground Captain" suggestion I took,<BR>
> but changed it to "Troop Captain", which seemed<BR>
> more compatible to me with the Marine Force<BR>
> Captain and the Army COACC Flight Captain<BR>
> that I made.<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought about trying to wedge Warrant Officers<BR>
> in, but instead, I made up rank tables for Imperial<BR>
> Army COACC and Wet Navy branches, which<BR>
> plug into the overall Army chain of command.<BR>
> Some titles lifted from RAF structure, such as<BR>
> "Pilot Officer" and "Wing Commander" (on equal<BR>
> rank with Navy Commanders and Marine Force<BR>
> Commanders, naturally :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Does COACC say anything about service ranks?<BR>
> <BR>
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/milranks.htm<BR>
> <BR>
> Tell me what you think.<BR>
> <BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:57:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>>  Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
>>  OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?<BR>
>>  And, was Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
><BR>
>Ahem.<BR>
>Shaft came out in 1975 or thereabouts.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Considering the fact that I was about 5 at the time, it would make sense<BR>
that I do not know anything about the movie.<BR>
<BR>
>The one with Samuel Jackosn in it is a remake.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    It is, well Samuel L. Jackson is about the only man would could play a<BR>
tough black NYPD cop, other than Avery Brooks, IMHO.  Sorry, but Morgan<BR>
Freeman is too old, Wil Smith is too likeable, & Martin Lawrance is too<BR>
insane.  Of course I would have rather seen Avery Brooks in the role, but<BR>
Samuel L. Jackson has more star power, than Mr. Brooks does, which is a<BR>
shame because I do feel that Mr. Brooks is a much, much, much better actor<BR>
tham Samuel L. Jackson anyday of the week.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:03:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Pinkerdoo's Grand Opening<BR>
<BR>
LOL - <BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Black ICE<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 10:20 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Pinkerdoo's Grand Opening<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Pinkerdoo Design Group is proud to announce it's Regina Wide<BR>
> Information Service Site - Please drop by and visit us at<BR>
> <BR>
> http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo<BR>
> <BR>
> Remember - some times it takes an odd design to complete an odd job!<BR>
<BR>
That motto reminds me of my AuricTech slogan (see .sig file).  Tres<BR>
cool!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:11:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 4:57 AM<BR>
Subject: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I was rebuilding my mail files the other night and<BR>
came across a post I<BR>
> had made...part of it below...<BR>
><BR>
>  'The problem,' said the Doctor, 'is that you are<BR>
astonishingly bad at<BR>
> utilising this diversity. Faced with an agrarian<BR>
culture with a<BR>
> non-linear temporal perception, do you send in crack<BR>
squad of Zen<BR>
> Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
That brings back memories.<BR>
<BR>
Sigh.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:28:13<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
At 10:12 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    But, all humans are both unreasonable & insane, & never smile at them,<BR>
>they think you are baring your fangs & that when they get really dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, we don't have fangs as such, and our natural smile reaction is to<BR>
show our teeth.<BR>
<BR>
>    *weg*  But, you forget, under than mild mannered Captain's Uniform,<BR>
>there is a Superhero, Penguin Boy,  Righter of wrongs, hero to millions, &<BR>
>friend to Flash Gordon.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I seem to have a new .sig file...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:29:21<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
At 12:48 AM 6/1/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> 10. Next year, the third annual (insert blurb here) Traveller Party!<BR>
><BR>
>The Burbaker's Franchise meeting? Set up the room to look like one?<BR>
>Maybe, down stairs?<BR>
<BR>
Trust me, I'm going to be all over the Partry Maven trying to get a second<BR>
floor room next year.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:34:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
At 09:50 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
>OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?  And, was<BR>
>Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
<BR>
the *original* movie came out in 1971.  The new one is a sort of sequel<BR>
with Jackson as Shaft's nephew.<BR>
<BR>
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0067741<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:41:26 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Justice Hypercleats wrote:<BR>
>Do you mean to say then, that "the Traveller one" is happier sans the <BR>
>nagging bits about reality and science and all that claptrap? <BR>
<BR>
Considering what Leonard just did to your versions of "reality",<BR>
"science"...that is, "claptrap" - the above is somewhat amusing. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:47:47 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
>> Little ships that usually land should have decks <BR>
>> paralell to the main thrust axis, to improve <BR>
>> access to cargo bays and such. <BR>
><BR>
>Not necessarily true. Ships that take off and land horizontally, yes. <BR>
>But ships can land and take off vertically. And cargo access is still <BR>
>fairly easy if they are designed properly. <BR>
<BR>
The above is an unfounded postulate, until properly backed up by<BR>
starship designs...with deckplans.  Get to it!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
Ringmaster, Traveller Deckplans Webring.<BR>
http://users.hartwick.edu/~smithw/deckring.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:54:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Construction: numbers, combat, reference, decisions<BR>
<BR>
At 11:03 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>II. Combat<BR>
><BR>
>Also, I wonder why all the rules are really there.  For<BR>
>the sake of flexibility?  Well, maybe.  But I wonder<BR>
>if this kind of flexibility is at odds with a fast<BR>
>combat system.<BR>
><BR>
>Maybe that's what all my worries boil down to: <BR>
>the combat system.<BR>
<BR>
When I started writing ACQ, one of the things I did was collect stories of<BR>
dumb things people have done in combat, both real and in games.<BR>
<BR>
The level of detail and options available are there not to make your life<BR>
difficult, but to handle the plans that a warped player can come up with.<BR>
Combat is also heavily detailed because it is what usually leads to<BR>
character deaths, and having a good "paper trail" helps stop fights over<BR>
killer Referees and the like.<BR>
<BR>
Let me quote from the first paragraph of ACQ:<BR>
<BR>
"ACQ is not intended to be used for every altercation that occurs in a<BR>
Traveller game. One of the biggest mistakes the referee can make (in any<BR>
role-playing game) is "roll-playing" every little event.  Simple bar-room<BR>
brawls and one-shot gunfights should be played out using the normal rule<BR>
system; ACQ should be used for vital combat situations or as a standalone<BR>
combat game in the vein of 'classic' Traveller's Snapshot or Azhanti High<BR>
Lightning."<BR>
<BR>
You, as the Referee, are free to use as much detail or as little detail as<BR>
fits your game.  As I've said before, it's much easier to take detail out<BR>
that add it later, so I like the way things are now.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:50:40 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Fleet Combat Questionaire  TML 99-2537<BR>
<BR>
Commander:<BR>
<BR>
Bureau of Imperial Interstellar Affairs <BR>
Fleet Combat Questionnaire<BR>
<BR>
1.      How much fleet combat have you done?<BR>
<BR>
Does FFW qualify?  If so  three times<BR>
<BR>
Does Invasion Earth qualify? If so, once.<BR>
<BR>
Trillion Credit Squadron, once.<BR>
<BR>
High Guard, Squadron Level,  too many times to count<BR>
<BR>
2.      When was your first (estimated) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
When FFW was published (1982?)  <BR>
When High Guard first came out.<BR>
<BR>
3.      When was your last (est) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
Not sure.  Still on-going.<BR>
<BR>
4.      Which milieux were your fleet combats in?<BR>
<BR>
1055 - Fifth Frontier War  1120<BR>
 <BR>
5. To the best of your knowledge, what were the <BR>
rough compositions of your fleets?<BR>
<BR>
Battleships/Riders, Monitors, Crusiers, Assault, Tankers<BR>
<BR>
Various auxiliarie squadrons including Scoouts and Mercenaries.<BR>
<BR>
5.      How satsfying were the fleet combat sessions?<BR>
<BR>
Fun. But longer than expected.<BR>
<BR>
6.      What do you like about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
Strategy and Tactics<BR>
<BR>
7.      What do you dislike about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
Prep length and game length, too many rolls.<BR>
<BR>
8.      Do you have any additional comments?<BR>
<BR>
Fleet combat can take the form of several gaming systems within the Traveller<BR>
Universe.<BR>
We need to ask,Tto what purpose are we using the combat system?   Is it as a<BR>
backdrop for our gaming sessions?  Something I use FFW for and Invasion Earth. <BR>
Is it a full<BR>
blown portion of the PCs experience?  Something I use High Guard and<BR>
squadroncombat for.  Or<BR>
is it for a change of pace to give the PCs a chance to design their own ships<BR>
and navy?  Then I<BR>
use Trillion Credit Squadrons.  I havent played Battle Rider and Brilliant<BR>
Lances, so I wont <BR>
comment.  I do have them in my possession.<BR>
<BR>
In Faithful Service<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov                        holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time        6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+, pi+,<BR>
ta+, <BR>
                as+, va+, dr+, sa, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, hu <BR>
                        (sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:08:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, for a six or more legged vehicle, you can *always* have at least<BR>
> three legs on the ground forming a stable tripod. With 8 legs, you even<BR>
> have two spares. <BR>
> <BR>
> The big problem is ground pressure. Even with large pads on the end,<BR>
> those legs will sink *deep* into ordinary ground.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming tank-level mass, sure.  Assuming HMMWV mass, it isn't so bad.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:55:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
> 1. How much fleet combat have you done?<BR>
<BR>
A fair amount.<BR>
<BR>
> 2. When was your first (estimated) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
1979? Whenever High Guard came out.<BR>
<BR>
> 3. When was your last (est) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
May, 2000.<BR>
<BR>
> 4. Which milieux were your fleet combats in?<BR>
<BR>
1100 and TNE.<BR>
<BR>
> 5. To the best of your knowledge, what were the<BR>
>    rough compositions of your fleets?<BR>
<BR>
Heavy on combatants, since we just played the battles rather than a<BR>
campaign.<BR>
<BR>
> 6. How satsfying were the fleet combat sessions?<BR>
<BR>
OK.<BR>
<BR>
> 7. What do you like about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
It's a fun way to test your ship designs. It's much more fun than arguing<BR>
endlessly about which model is superior.<BR>
<BR>
> 8. What do you dislike about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
The rules. I have never found a set of rules which accurately reflected *my*<BR>
personal vision of ship combat. But then, like I said at one of my "vision<BR>
of the future" talks on Tuesday of this week, I'm not always right, I just<BR>
think I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:05:56 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
I'll bite, what is your personal vision of space combat?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The rules. I have never found a set of rules which accurately reflected<BR>
*my*<BR>
> personal vision of ship combat. But then, like I said at one of my "vision<BR>
> of the future" talks on Tuesday of this week, I'm not always right, I just<BR>
> think I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:22:43 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
Ewan Quibell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Could you use Group Captain in the COACC ranks ? It's a RAF rank above<BR>
> Wing Commander. I think it fits, but YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
I tried it but it totally breaks the symmetry of things.<BR>
<BR>
> You might try Air Vice Marshall following that.<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to avoid all "Sub-", "Vice-", "Under-", "Junior-",<BR>
"Rear-", etc., type titles.  IMHO, they're slightly demeaming<BR>
for officers, who might well be in command of a fighting ship<BR>
or fighting soldiers.   I think I'd be embarrased if I were in<BR>
command of a small Navy ship, or SDB, and my rank title<BR>
was "Sub-Lieutenant".  I do have "apprentice" for the lowest<BR>
of the low, but I like the feel of it.<BR>
<BR>
And "Marshall" is for the Marines exclusive use [think I stole<BR>
that from Doug Berry], as "Admiral" is for the Navy, and<BR>
"General" for the Army.  Also, at O8, I have COACC<BR>
plugging into the main "Unified Army" command structure.<BR>
If COACC were a separate structure, it might be warranted.<BR>
<BR>
> Try Regimental Sergeant Major for the Army, and drop Sergeant Major down<BR>
> one. You could then lose First Sergeant in the Army, I think this fits<BR>
> better, but then I'm a Brit ;-)<BR>
<BR>
What?  Stealing Pilot Officer, Flight Lieutenant, Wing Commander,<BR>
and Flight Sergeant from the UK isn't enough?<BR>
<BR>
But I'm not totally happy with First Sergeant.<BR>
<BR>
What about this:<BR>
(Navy/Marine/Army/COACC/Wet Navy)<BR>
<BR>
E7<BR>
Navy          Chief Petty Officer<BR>
Marines      Chief SGT<BR>
Army          Chief SGT<BR>
COACC     Chief Flight SGT<BR>
Wet Navy   Chief Ship SGT<BR>
<BR>
E8<BR>
Navy           Master CPO<BR>
Marines       Master SGT<BR>
Army           Master SGT<BR>
COACC      Master Flight SGT<BR>
Wet Navy    Master Ship SGT<BR>
<BR>
E9<BR>
Navy           Fleet CPO<BR>
Marines       Fleet SGT<BR>
Army           SGTMAJ<BR>
COACC            "<BR>
Wet Navy          "<BR>
<BR>
E10 (Only one person at this rank)<BR>
Navy           Chief Petty Officer of the Navy<BR>
Marines       Sergeant of the Marines<BR>
Army           Sergeant Major of the Army<BR>
COACC         "<BR>
Wet Navy       "<BR>
<BR>
All "Chiefs" are E7, all "Masters" are E8, no "Firsts"<BR>
<BR>
Better?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:30:57 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
<BR>
Examples on the web.  Maybe you could point me to a few of those and I got<BR>
wrench my own thoughts from them.  Thios sounds like an interesting plotline<BR>
for my player.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:43:02 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
> INSTRUCTIONS<BR>
><BR>
> This survey has been downloaded into your pocket computer<BR>
> via the Starport Authority of this installation.  Please<BR>
> answer the following questions using your standard glyph<BR>
> system, and the SA computers will collate and translate<BR>
> for the B.I.I.A.  Thank you.<BR>
><BR>
> If you've never done any fleet combat, thank you and<BR>
> have a nice day.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. How much fleet combat have you done?<BR>
<BR>
    In my decode+ of running Traveller style games I have probably run a<BR>
dozen fleet actions.<BR>
<BR>
> 2. When was your first (estimated) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
    In the Solomini year: 1988 ce<BR>
<BR>
> 3. When was your last (est) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
    In the Solomoni Year 1999<BR>
<BR>
> 4. Which milieux were your fleet combats in?<BR>
<BR>
    The Classic Traveller settings using miniatures and modified rules from<BR>
the Starfleet Battles game.<BR>
<BR>
> 5. To the best of your knowledge, what were the<BR>
>    rough compositions of your fleets?<BR>
<BR>
    Mostly heavy cruisers, but a few of them had 1 light assult ship of<BR>
extra galactic designe that was TL K<BR>
<BR>
> 6. How satsfying were the fleet combat sessions?<BR>
<BR>
    They ranged from very satisfying to 'can I kill myself instead please.?'<BR>
<BR>
> 7. What do you like about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
    If added detail to the game.<BR>
<BR>
> 8. What do you dislike about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
    It was too disruptive to the flow of the adventure.<BR>
<BR>
> 9. Do you have any additional comments?<BR>
<BR>
    No.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:50:52 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
I personally think that doing away with onboard gravitics would change the<BR>
background too much.   Starship travel  is the routine part of Traveller and<BR>
if it it seems simple and familiar it assists with suspension of disbelief<BR>
and allows the novelty of different worlds and enviroments to be better<BR>
highlighted.  In addition those few times players have to operate in a<BR>
zer0-G enviroment is much more interesting and fun to play.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
> The OTU has had space travel for longer than we<BR>
> Earthlings have had the wheel, I don't think it's<BR>
> unreasonable that it's as difficult to them as a<BR>
> ride on a 747 is to us.  The danger and excitement<BR>
> is less with riding the ship than it is with the<BR>
> planets and the inhabitants you're travelling to see.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly<BR>
<BR>
> Now, as for orientation of decks with respect to<BR>
> main thrust:<BR>
><BR>
> Big ships that never land should have decks<BR>
> perpendicular to the main thrust axis.  This<BR>
> generally makes each deck smaller, and thus<BR>
> easier to isolate and access.<BR>
><BR>
> Little ships that usually land should have decks<BR>
> paralell to the main thrust axis, to improve<BR>
> access to cargo bays and such.<BR>
><BR>
> Middle sized ships should have either orientation,<BR>
> depending on how much they interact with small<BR>
> craft that land and how it affects the rest of their<BR>
> design.<BR>
<BR>
And most (if not all) Traveller deckplans I have seen are for these smaller<BR>
vessels designed to land on planets.  the larger space only vessels are laid<BR>
out with decks perpendicular to thrust.  its just that players don't go<BR>
aboard them too often.<BR>
<BR>
> Shipboard gravitics and acceleration compensators are<BR>
> such ancient, reliable technology that they'll fail<BR>
> long after the drives do, so a failure of them<BR>
> shouldn't be a necessary design limiter with<BR>
> regard to deck orientation.  As proof, I present<BR>
> you with the large number of canonical Traveller<BR>
> vessels that would be completely unusuable if<BR>
> their onboard gravitics failed... <WEG><BR>
<BR>
In addition the most sensible and safe design is alwaya the one built.<BR>
Aircraft (and buses) with rear facing seats are much safer (in that in an<BR>
accident injuries are more likely to be minor) than the current ones and how<BR>
often do you see them.  this is because users would find them inconvenient<BR>
and disorientating.  So much for safety first designs.  i don't see this<BR>
sort of idea changing in the future.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:52:02 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2537<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote:<BR>
> On 05/31/00 at 03:29 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >At 02:14 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>    Adventurer, Merchant, he's the guy with the gun.<BR>
> <BR>
> >Beowulf Shaeffer with a gun?  Worst he ever did intentionally was punch a<BR>
> >guy in the face.  Unintentionally he released a quantum black hole which<BR>
> >proceeded to eat the bad guy.<BR>
> <BR>
> To a human, you mean. <g>  I remember a short story where he fought and <BR>
> killed a Kzin assassin in a corridor.<BR>
<BR>
I don't remember this story. Any more info?<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2538<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (rly-yb04.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.4]) by air-yb01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:58:37 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:57:42 2000<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA74122;<BR>
	Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:56:17 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:55:51 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA74080<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:55:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:55:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006011755.NAA74080@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2538<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2539</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/1/00 2:17:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2539<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 02:03:23 -0400<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2537<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: ACQ<BR>
Dune: the mini series...<BR>
Cultural icon was Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Generation Gaps (long)<BR>
Mecha vs Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:00:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry asked a hard question when he wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I'll bite, what is your personal vision of space combat?<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that I envision space combat being much like contemporary<BR>
submarine combat, in that sensors are of extreme value, and the results of<BR>
weapons are quick and decisive. This may not make for interesting games,<BR>
however, so it may not be worth considering within the context of Traveller.<BR>
Compare High Guard to Brilliant Lances or Battle rider.<BR>
<BR>
In High Guard, sensors are totally abstracted, so that element of the game<BR>
is virtually gone.<BR>
<BR>
In the periods of time we have for turns in High Guard, we should have a<BR>
huge amount of energy delivered to the targets which should totally<BR>
obliterate it. What we get in the game, however, is that the only results<BR>
from massive barrages of nuclear missiles is the gradual destruction of<BR>
stuff outside the armor. I can't think of any reason to make the warheads on<BR>
these missiles anything less than gigatons of yield, so they should cause<BR>
some very severe damage, even to the most heavily armored ship.<BR>
<BR>
Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider change this, so that the big spinal<BR>
weapons are not very effective against other big ships with armor and meson<BR>
shields, but the massive waves of missiles are deadly. Many waves of<BR>
missiles result in a "ship explodes" result, even on the big battle riders.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the large-scale battles I have played have been using High Guard,<BR>
but my recent experience with Battle Rider seems more in line with what I<BR>
envision for space combat. On the other hand, I have a hard time justifying<BR>
the use of player skills to modify combat results in Brilliant Lances. For<BR>
example, in the absence of any evasive acceleration, it's easy to track and<BR>
hit a target, so the best you can do to make yourself harder to hit is to do<BR>
random evasion. But in Brilliant Lances, you can use character's skill to<BR>
increase this. Similarly for sensors skill, etc. I suppose that I also<BR>
envision space combat as being mostly run by computers, which makes it less<BR>
than interesting for gaming purposes.<BR>
<BR>
All of these comments don't make these games any less fun to play. Just<BR>
don't lose sight of the fact that they are just games.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 02:03:23 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 02:03:23 -0400<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:57:16 +1000<BR>
>From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
>Subject: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
><BR>
>I was rebuilding my mail files the other night and came across a post I<BR>
>had made...part of it below...<BR>
><BR>
> 'The problem,' said the Doctor, 'is that you are astonishingly bad at<BR>
>utilising this diversity. Faced with an agrarian culture with a<BR>
>non-linear temporal perception, do you send in crack squad of Zen<BR>
>Buddhists?<BR>
><BR>
>The question that sprang to mind was: What sort of uniform would a crack<BR>
>squad of zen buddhists wear?<BR>
><BR>
>Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The question I have is, "What is the explosive yield of one atom fusing?"<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
  "I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
I came in here for that special offer<BR>
    Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:26:58 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2537<BR>
<BR>
On 06/01/00 at 10:52 AM,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Eris wrote:<BR>
>> On 05/31/00 at 03:29 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >At 02:14 PM 5/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >>    Adventurer, Merchant, he's the guy with the gun.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >Beowulf Shaeffer with a gun?  Worst he ever did intentionally was punch a<BR>
>> >guy in the face.  Unintentionally he released a quantum black hole which<BR>
>> >proceeded to eat the bad guy.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> To a human, you mean. <g>  I remember a short story where he fought and <BR>
>> killed a Kzin assassin in a corridor.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't remember this story. Any more info?<BR>
<BR>
I'm vague on details, but I think I read it in one of the anthologies by other writers that Niven authorized.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:31:56 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
Very interesting.  I've always envisioned space combat as 2/3 of that.  That<BR>
is, sensors are primary, weapons are quick.<BR>
<BR>
I'm skeptical however, that weapons are decisive, at least with the first<BR>
strike.<BR>
<BR>
MHO follows<BR>
<BR>
The only true one shot, definite kill weapons would be a high velocity<BR>
kinetic kill vehicle or a close proximity high yield nuclear detonation.<BR>
These could be the most decisive weapons.<BR>
<BR>
However, any target with a working laser array can defeat these one shot one<BR>
kill weapons.  Thus, a decisive first strike could only occur against an<BR>
unarmed opponent or an unalerted one.  See Sensor primacy above.<BR>
<BR>
This leaves directed energy weapons or nuclear detonation lasers.  I don't<BR>
see either of these being decisive with the first strike.  Even if the<BR>
opponent is unarmed or unalerted i'm thinking the decisive moment won't<BR>
happen until the second or third strike.<BR>
<BR>
I agree on two out of three points and perhaps my third point is based more<BR>
on "preference" than realism.  Certainly i've designed my game project that<BR>
way.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Eric Henry asked a hard question when he wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I'll bite, what is your personal vision of space combat?<BR>
><BR>
> I suppose that I envision space combat being much like contemporary<BR>
> submarine combat, in that sensors are of extreme value, and the results of<BR>
> weapons are quick and decisive.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:32:39 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I'll bite, what is your personal vision of space combat?<BR>
> <BR>
> I suppose that I envision space combat being much like contemporary<BR>
> submarine combat, in that sensors are of extreme value, and the results of<BR>
> weapons are quick and decisive. This may not make for interesting games,<BR>
> however, so it may not be worth considering within the context of<BR>
> Traveller. Compare High Guard to Brilliant Lances or Battle rider.<BR>
<BR>
It's a sort of cool idea, but except under specialized circumstances (like two meson-armed SDBs dueling it out under the surface of a gas giant) detection range is going to exceed engagement range by a lot.  A 1,000T ship painted with military hyperblack (99.99% black) could be spotted by a TL 7 amateur astronomer at a tenth of a light-second.  See the Bruce Macintosh's Definative Sensor Rules for more detail on this; I suspect his rules don't pay enough attention to data analysis, but the detection process is reasonable enough.<BR>
<BR>
Realistically, given Traveller technology, battles will tend to be short and not very interesting slugging matches between battleships.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:44:14 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Oh my god I hope this was a troll/humour by Legate Legion, otherwise I am<BR>
going to feel even older than I did after work today.  Yes Shaft WAS a film,<BR>
came out in the 70's (?) and I remember going to see it a the cinema.  I<BR>
seem to remember it being featured recently on a UK programme about<BR>
Blaxploitation(sp) films.<BR>
<BR>
I assume the film Legate Legion is referring to is the recently made sequel.<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com> originally said<BR>
>> intro to the TV show<BR>
><BR>
>Shows how much I know, Shaft was a /movie/, not a TV show.<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> commented<BR>
>    Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
>OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?  And, was<BR>
>Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
<BR>
Obtrav :  What sort of generation gaps do you get in Traveller when the TL<BR>
advances are so slow and political change so infrequent?<BR>
<BR>
Peter (Who is feeling very old right now)<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:56:25 -0700<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/1/00 7:41 AM, SmithW@hartwick.edu issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Justice Hypercleats wrote:<BR>
>> Do you mean to say then, that "the Traveller one" is happier sans the<BR>
>> nagging bits about reality and science and all that claptrap?<BR>
> <BR>
> Considering what Leonard just did to your versions of "reality",<BR>
> "science"...that is, "claptrap" - the above is somewhat amusing. ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, at least I am glad you have been amused. :)<BR>
<BR>
BTW: Leonard, has posited that artificial gravity cannot be *proven* to be<BR>
*impossible* (esp. in the absence of a grav-electro-weak unification theory)<BR>
- -- so if you feel that this is plenty enough for you to consider what I have<BR>
postulated as complete nonsense, more power to you, sir. It's all good brain<BR>
exercise. <BR>
<BR>
Now, where he *really* laid in on me was in my examples of various solutions<BR>
to the problems posed to humans in high-G -- this part I fully admit was<BR>
fuzzy anyway. I was putting thoughts out there in an effort to (if I was<BR>
lucky) hear other's ideas on the issue. On list, however, the main 'ideas' I<BR>
have heard have been simply to stop with this and leave well enough alone,<BR>
so I will. <BR>
<BR>
(Off list, interestingly, I've received very positive responses on the<BR>
whole, from people who do think about minutiae such as this...) It seems<BR>
that the Traveller Universe is big enough for a variety of ideas.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:14:53 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 31 May 2000 07:24:11 -0500, Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:55 PM -0400 5/30/00, RvKsword@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> >grav tanks by nature have much greater mobility, but mecha simply have more<BR>
> >versatility.<BR>
> <BR>
> How is a Mech more versatile than a grav tank?  Transformable mech would<BR>
> have space for transforming machinery that could be replaced with multiple<BR>
> weapons for different scenarios.  The grav tank can easily attack air<BR>
> and ground units and, if the hull is sealed, fly into space.  If you can<BR>
> automate a mech so that a single pilot can control it than making a grav<BR>
> tank piloted by a single pilot would be easy.  You could also make a<BR>
> grav tank with a modular turret which would allow you to switch out<BR>
> weapons if you needed to.<BR>
> <BR>
> In "Hand to Hand" I'd still bet on the grav tank.  Being a nice compact<BR>
> shape it can be much tougher than an equally armored mech.  A grav tank<BR>
> could ram the mech.<BR>
<BR>
But by its very nature, a grav tank would *never* have to go into HTH<BR>
combat (which is an extremely silly concept concerning mobile armour units<BR>
anyway).  Think of a grav tank as a modern attack helicopter with the<BR>
armour of a MBT.  All the tactics that apply to today's Apaches would apply<BR>
to a grav tank, with the added bonus of being much, much harder to kill.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, mecha started out as guys dressed up in costumes pretending to be<BR>
giant humanoid robots on early morning cartoons in Japan.  The concept was<BR>
*cool*, but it still makes the thought of heavily armoured humanoid war<BR>
machines battling it out with swords and shields silly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Hell Hath No Pizza.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:15:09 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 31 May 2000 11:15:14 EDT, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 5/31/00 2:58:39 AM !!!First Boot!!!, RvKsword@aol.com <BR>
> writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << grav tanks by nature have much greater mobility, but mecha simply have <BR>
> more <BR>
>  versatility.<BR>
>   >><BR>
> <BR>
> what about ground pressure? I'd take a wide track tank over a mechs' tiny <BR>
> foot pads anyday....We also can't forget vehicle size...I'd rather be in a <BR>
> tank hull down and showing maybe a meter of turret and main gun, than in a 10 <BR>
> meter tall mech...I must admit that I'm VERY biased against mechs as I just <BR>
> never liked the concept...<BR>
<BR>
I tend to agree.  Although mecha are cool to look at, I find it very<BR>
difficult to see how mecha would be chosen over grav tanks by any military<BR>
force.  Even if the cost of gravitic propulsion were astronomical, dollar<BR>
for dollar, several dozen tracked MBTs would be a wiser investment than a<BR>
single mecha.<BR>
<BR>
Grav tanks are unarguably more agile than walking mecha.  Advantage: grav<BR>
tank.<BR>
<BR>
Why waste all that mass on arms and legs?  It only makes the mecha heavier,<BR>
slower, and taller, not to mention that the arms and legs need to be<BR>
weighed down with additional armour as well-- which adds even *more* mass.<BR>
Advantage: grav tank.<BR>
<BR>
Without arms and legs, the grav tank is nothing more than the central torso<BR>
of a mecha (with a gun on it).  That nasty silhouette disadvantage that<BR>
won't let a mecha "hide" on the battlefield is a big concern even without<BR>
the fear of grav tank attacks popping up from behind terrain.  Advantage:<BR>
grav tank.<BR>
<BR>
If we follow the current trend in military technology today, our best<BR>
weapons can penetrate our best armour.  Advantage: neither (except that<BR>
your much more expensive mecha becomes just as easy to kill as a grav tank,<BR>
or even a modern MBT).  Advantage: grav tank (which is smaller and more<BR>
agile, making it harder to hit).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In Games Workshop "Epic" terms, I'd take my 900 pt Tempest Host (featuring<BR>
six heavy grav tanks) over a 900 pt Imperial Titan (featuring regenerating<BR>
force field technology on top of armour) any day.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Hell Hath No Pizza.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:15:16 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 31 May 2000 14:03:03 -0400 (EDT), Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I think the comparison of mecha vs. _grav_ tanks is incorrect.  After all,<BR>
> one is a flying vehicle and the other is not.  A comparison between mecha<BR>
> and tanks is fairer.  Granted, the tank will still prove to be the simpler<BR>
> and therefore better design, but it is much easier to suspend disbelief<BR>
> when the comparison is between ground vehicles.  That is why (I think) the<BR>
> original poster mentioned grav tech as being the dividing line between<BR>
> grav tanks and mechs.  Once you have grav tanks, mechs (assuming they<BR>
> can't fly)  clearly lose out.  But mechs vs. ground tanks might have<BR>
> advantages. <BR>
> <BR>
> The most obvious advantage of a mech, assuming you can get a really good<BR>
> walking interface, is terrain ability.  A mech can climb rocky slopes,<BR>
> jump across ravines or onto/over buildings, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Not a fair comparison.  If you assume that a mecha is strong enough, agile<BR>
enough, sure-footed enough, and designed well enough to climb rocky slopes,<BR>
you are assuming technology that we don't currently have.  If you want them<BR>
to move like they do in anime movies, we're a l-o-n-g way off.<BR>
<BR>
As for the technology involved in propelling several tons over a ravine or<BR>
over ("onto" would be a recipe for disaster) buildings, the tracked tank<BR>
could easily be equipped with the same tech.<BR>
<BR>
> They can also handle<BR>
> swamps and bodies of water of limited depth.<BR>
<BR>
Floating tanks.  Most AFVs are capable of amphibious transport using their<BR>
treads to drive them forward.<BR>
<BR>
> A tank has more ground<BR>
> surface, but the mech can still function when sunk up to a depth equal to<BR>
> its leg length and "slog through" mud or water.<BR>
<BR>
While it could twist about somewhat, I'd give the advantage to a tank (with<BR>
it's 360 degree turret) stuck in the same mud.  Have you ever walked on the<BR>
beach and stepped into wet sand up to even *one* knee?  You are pretty much<BR>
immobilized, and could even seriously injure yourself if you were moving<BR>
any faster than a slow walk.  The human body is also capable of a nearly<BR>
infinite number of articulated movements compared to most mecha designs,<BR>
making the task of freeing a stuck mecha even harder.<BR>
<BR>
> A tank might be built<BR>
> water-proof so it can run along the bottom, but then it's pretty blind<BR>
> while it's down there. <BR>
<BR>
And it also can't be seen to be shot at :)<BR>
<BR>
> This brings us to the other advantage mech has: Variable height.  A mech<BR>
> can stand to look over obstacles or crouch to hide behind them.<BR>
<BR>
Which is also a disadvantage.  I suppose a tank could be designed to<BR>
include a camera on either a small telescoping stock or a LTA tethered<BR>
balloon...<BR>
<BR>
> Tanks can<BR>
> only do effective "fire from cover" with a certain height of cover, mechs<BR>
> can do this with a range of heights.  <BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, the type of terrain that would provide adequate protective<BR>
cover for a tank is naturally found close to the ground.  Finding terrain<BR>
that would shield an upright mech would be harder to find.  Likewise, mecha<BR>
are normally depicted with their weapons built into their arms, which would<BR>
require much of the mecha to still be unprotected in order to fight.<BR>
<BR>
> There is also the versatility issue.  As someone else mentioned, changing<BR>
> weapons on a mech with hands is as easy as dropping one and picking up<BR>
> another.<BR>
<BR>
Ugh... I still don't like that concept.  Built-in weapons I can visualize.<BR>
Handheld weapons still reek of the "really big guy wearing really big<BR>
armour" idea.<BR>
<BR>
> And a mech can act to clear roads, dig trenches and do other<BR>
> "combat engineering" tasks.<BR>
<BR>
Again, you are assuming design and interface technology f-a-r ahead of what<BR>
we currently have.<BR>
<BR>
> Granted, as Doug (?) mentioned, you're better<BR>
> off generally designing combat vehicles for certain single tasks, but that<BR>
> may not be the case with better engineering capabilities in the future.  <BR>
<BR>
Possible, but wasting a several billion dollar mecha to dig trenches or<BR>
clear roads is a real waste of firepower (and $$$).  This follows the same<BR>
doctrine that modern day infantrymen are *not* grunts, snipers, gunners,<BR>
pilots, engineers, parachutists, cooks, etc. *all rolled into one*.  "All<BR>
your eggs in one basket", etc.  It just isn't practical.<BR>
<BR>
> Finally, mechs are generally portrayed as more maneuverable, able to jump<BR>
> side-ways, up or down.  Tanks can't do this.  Whether this is realistic,<BR>
> given material strength-to-weight ratios...<BR>
<BR>
Now *that's* the big problem here.  For mechs to behave the way they do in<BR>
anime, technology would have to be quite a bit more advanced than we have<BR>
here.  Just imagine the technology involved in designing hip and knee<BR>
actuators capable of launching several dozen tons straight up.  Now imagine<BR>
the alloys required to stand up to that kind of stress (especially on<BR>
landing).  Remember the arguments against giant insects?  Building things<BR>
bigger by a factor of two does not necessarily mean that you have to make<BR>
them only twice as strong/durable.<BR>
<BR>
> Now, all of this is just hand-waving to some degree, but it is<BR>
> sufficiently convincing (IMO) to allow play in a mech universe without<BR>
> snapping my suspension of disbelief.  This is especially the case with<BR>
> smaller mechs (a la Heavy Gear*). The really big monsters (a la Battle<BR>
> Tech) I don't really like. <BR>
<BR>
My main counterpoint to this argument is that you are not fairly<BR>
administering to MBTs the technology required to make mechs work.  If we<BR>
had mecha today, our tanks wouldn't look anything like they do now.  But we<BR>
don't have mecha today.  By the time we do, we'll be dropping guided<BR>
crowbars from orbit or blasting them with airborne lasers to take them out<BR>
anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, my overall favorite "future tank" is the wonderful "spider<BR>
> tank" (see, e.g., "Ghost in the Machine").  This combines the terrain<BR>
> abilities of a mech with the sturdiness of a tank.  Plus it looks cool!<BR>
<BR>
Ghost In The Machine was fantastic, but the vehicles depicted weren't<BR>
really tanks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Hell Hath No Pizza.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:15:23 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 31 May 2000 13:01:41, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 02:44 PM 5/31/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> >FYI: Our Warehouse 23 manager (http://www.warehouse23.com ) reports that<BR>
> >ample supplies of At Close Quarters are expected in Friday, and backorders<BR>
> >for them them should be shipped shipped out that same day.<BR>
> <BR>
> "ample supplies"?  "back orders"?<BR>
> <BR>
> YESSS!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Yah hoo!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Hell Hath No Pizza.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:16:00 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
Coming late this year in December...<BR>
<BR>
http://www.scifi.com/dune/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Hell Hath No Pizza.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:12:21 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Cultural icon was Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> puts out in the ether<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> >>  Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
> >>  OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?<BR>
> >>  And, was Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
> >>Ahem.<BR>
> >Shaft came out in 1975 or thereabouts.<BR>
>    Considering the fact that I was about 5 at the time, it would make sense<BR>
>that I do not know anything about the movie.<BR>
<BR>
Shaft is a pop culture icon.  Will Smith made obvious references to him on <BR>
his "FPoBA" show.<BR>
<BR>
He even signed up for the "Shaft Wedding" in Vegas on episode.  Complete <BR>
with a cameo by Issac Hayes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:34:49 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Generation Gaps (long)<BR>
<BR>
Peter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com> originally said<BR>
> >> intro to the TV show<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Shows how much I know, Shaft was a /movie/, not a TV show.<BR>
<BR>
It was both, if 7 episodes count.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> commented<BR>
> >    Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
> >OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?  And, was<BR>
> >Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
<BR>
Uh, preview screening?  When I was plugged into the preview<BR>
screening scene, sometimes I'd see movies as early as 6 months<BR>
prior to release, though it was rare.  One month was about the<BR>
standard lead time.  Of course, some never saw theatrical<BR>
release at all.<BR>
<BR>
> Obtrav :  What sort of generation gaps do you get in Traveller when the TL<BR>
> advances are so slow and political change so infrequent?<BR>
<BR>
Can I answer with song lyrics?<BR>
<BR>
"Same as it ever was.<BR>
 Same as it ever was<BR>
Same as it.  Ever was."<BR>
<BR>
"Fashion.  Turn to the Right.<BR>
Fashion.  Turn to the Left.<BR>
Ooooooooooo, Fashion."<BR>
<BR>
When you have the whole vast imperium in mind,<BR>
it is pretty slow.  But, its HUGE!  And communications<BR>
are slow.  Imperial citizens with the 'big picture'<BR>
are pretty rare.  So for nearly everyone, life muddles<BR>
on. Rebellious youth turns into conservative elder.<BR>
<BR>
At the beginning the "Gen X" media hype several years<BR>
ago, a fairly interesting book on the subject came out<BR>
called "13th Gen", for the 13th generation of Americans.<BR>
Although it suffers a bit from an attempt to be 'hip' and<BR>
'jazzed' up, featuring sidebars, cartoons, boxed quotes,<BR>
etc., it was actually based on credible sociological<BR>
research (IIRC, the authors are sociology profs).<BR>
<BR>
Anyhoo, it demystified a lot of the Gen X hype and<BR>
came to the conclusion that the 13th generation (those<BR>
born between 1961 and 1981) was not unique, and<BR>
was actually very similar to the Lost Generation<BR>
(born between 1883 and 1900), and several others<BR>
as well:<BR>
<BR>
The Gilded Generation (1822-1842)  Twain, Rockefeller<BR>
The Liberty Generation (1724-1741) Washington, Henry, Arnold<BR>
The Cavalier Cavalier (1615-1647) Nathanial Bacon, William Kidd<BR>
<BR>
They then anaylze the phases these generations go through<BR>
overtime, identifying conflict with the generations that<BR>
preceded and then succeed them.  The point being that<BR>
its cyclical.  So there's always something.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, that's just America.  The UK might be a better<BR>
source of Traveller parallels.  Especially in the latter half of<BR>
the 19th century.  Or you could fall back on the old crutch,<BR>
Imperial Rome.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:14:28 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: Mecha vs Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi> wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
>Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Now, all of this is just hand-waving to some degree, but it is<BR>
> > sufficiently convincing (IMO) to allow play in a mech universe without<BR>
> > snapping my suspension of disbelief.  This is especially the case with<BR>
> > smaller mechs (a la Heavy Gear*). The really big monsters (a la Battle<BR>
> > Tech) I don't really like.<BR>
<BR>
>        I tried to design mechs with TNE/FF&S1, and the results were not<BR>
>        very impressive. There were problems with large surface areas<BR>
>        (too heavy armor), huge ground pressures and massive suspension/<BR>
>        locomotion systems. Eventually I found very little reason for<BR>
>        building a huge mech when a small tank would be much better<BR>
>        vehicle in most situations.<BR>
<BR>
>        However, a small-scale mech which can walk inside a building<BR>
>        might be convenient in some situations. The "exo-suits" in<BR>
>        "Jovian Chronicles" are nice examples, and similar vehicles can<BR>
>        be build with FF&S1.<BR>
<BR>
I used the walker rules in FFS1 to make the TL-11 Avenger Battle Armor. I<BR>
figured that between battle dress and full sized mechs/tanks there was a role<BR>
for small mechs.  They would have much more firepower than the average trooper,<BR>
but not as much as a full sized tank.  I think it came out okay, but it<BR>
definetly is a niche player, rather than a universally useful vehicle.  <BR>
<BR>
The URL is http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/vera/vera4004.html<BR>
<BR>
The problems with the suit are that it is only moderatly armored (27) and it can<BR>
only move at 27kph.  A TL-15 fusion power plant would help alot, but at TL-15<BR>
walkers are not as efficient as grav propulsion.  Then you are better off with<BR>
battle eggs.   (These were proposed years ago on the TML, basically a small<BR>
heavily armored egg with lots of weapons, contragrav and a fusion power plant.)<BR>
<BR>
As Dave Nilsen said, FFS lets you try a design and you can figure out why they<BR>
don't build them.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:24:20 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Jun 2000, at 9:55, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 1. How much fleet combat have you done?<BR>
<BR>
Some, using small fleets, and a couple of TCS actions<BR>
<BR>
> 2. When was your first (estimated) fleet combat?<BR>
sometime in the spring of 81 or 82<BR>
<BR>
1<BR>
> 3. When was your last (est) fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
fall of last year<BR>
<BR>
> 4. Which milieux were your fleet combats in?<BR>
<BR>
High Guard<BR>
> 5. To the best of your knowledge, what were the<BR>
>    rough compositions of your fleets?<BR>
Imperial Convoy and escorts, Vargr corsair raiding force<BR>
the Imperial force included a Q-Ship<BR>
<BR>
> 6. How satsfying were the fleet combat sessions?<BR>
<BR>
not bad, could have been better<BR>
<BR>
> 7. What do you like about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
It's a fun way to test your ship designs. Its also gives a good reason<BR>
to use the larger designs that the PC's never really use. and I like <BR>
big ships.<BR>
<BR>
> 8. What do you dislike about fleet combat?<BR>
<BR>
not enough detail, at least in the Traveller versions.<BR>
this situation is rectified somewhat with GURPS Traveller/GURPS <BR>
Space. I am also working on some additional tables.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2539<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:17:03 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:16:36 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA82441;<BR>
	Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:15:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:15:43 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA82400<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:15:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:15:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006012115.RAA82400@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2539<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2540</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/1/00 5:33:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2540<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
Re: Cultural icon etc. OT<BR>
mil ranks again<BR>
crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
re:  Religon: Word of God <BR>
Re: Living Expenses<BR>
Vs: Living Expenses<BR>
Charismatic vs. Bureaucratic Governments<BR>
RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Living Expenses<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: <BR>
Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:24:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Justice Hypercleats wrote:<BR>
>On list, however, the main 'ideas' I have heard have <BR>
>been simply to stop with this and leave well enough <BR>
>alone, so I will. <BR>
<BR>
Well...<BR>
<BR>
I think you'd need to think through your alternatives<BR>
to artificial gravity a bit more.  Taking AG out of<BR>
a TU creates complications in setting, gameplay,<BR>
feel, and roleplaying (IMO), so take an effort to<BR>
see that your alternative to it suits your<BR>
purposes.<BR>
<BR>
As someone said about protomatter, you need to be<BR>
very careful with your pseudoscience.  The pseudo-<BR>
science of artificial gravity has been hashed out<BR>
quite a bit, so a Traveller GM has some warnings<BR>
about the holes that will bite him.  Alternatives<BR>
to it (like cyber-implants, pressurized fluids, etc)<BR>
are new territory - be sure why you want to go there<BR>
before you leave, because there's little warning<BR>
what will bite you.  Leonard showed you some of the<BR>
more apparent "bites" from the alternatives you<BR>
were thinking of, there are certainly more.<BR>
<BR>
>(Off list, interestingly, I've received very positive <BR>
>responses on the whole, from people who do think about <BR>
>minutiae such as this...) It seems that the Traveller <BR>
>Universe is big enough for a variety of ideas.<BR>
<BR>
I truly hope that's not the first time you've been<BR>
exposed to how big the Traveller tent is.  I'm a<BR>
heretic on several subjects myself. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:26:24 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
While developing Prilissa I have been thinking about some of the<BR>
consequences of tidelocking. Here's a few thoughts and questions; feel<BR>
free to make corrections or add more.<BR>
<BR>
1. There is no real equator; the only (meteorologically) significant<BR>
great circle is the twilight belt. However, the plane of orbit will pass<BR>
through the bright and dark "poles" and cartographers can use the<BR>
leading line as the prime meridian.<BR>
<BR>
What names can I use for the directions? I could just say that North is<BR>
towards the bright pole and go from there but would rather use something<BR>
less arbitrary. Brightward/Darkward is fine; what about an East-<BR>
equivalent and a West-equivalent?<BR>
<BR>
2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit. Highport can<BR>
pick an orbit that will take it above most of the important downports.<BR>
<BR>
What satellite-based technologies on Earth today require geostationary<BR>
orbit? Will this have any other effect on traffic patterns?<BR>
<BR>
3. There is no coriolis force, so fluids will not have a tendency to<BR>
circle in any particular direction. Bathwater will go straight down the<BR>
plughole, winds and currents will be very different from Earth's.<BR>
<BR>
Will there be hurricanes? What will weather be like on various parts of<BR>
Prilissa? Here's an ASCII map for those of you who can't see the map at<BR>
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Prilissa.html:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
         BRIGHT FACE    ___<BR>
                       /   \<--Circle Sea<BR>
     ___             __\   /________<BR>
        \           |   . . .<BR>
         \           \. o ISLANDS<BR>
         |  LAND    _/<BR>
          \        /<BR>
          |       |   SEA<BR>
           \      /<BR>
            \    /<BR>
             \__/<BR>
          DARK FACE<BR>
<BR>
I'm particularly interested in conditions on and around the Circle Sea.<BR>
<BR>
Any more thoughts welcome.<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:39:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/1/00 7:41 AM, SmithW@hartwick.edu issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Now, where he *really* laid in on me was in my examples of various solutions<BR>
> to the problems posed to humans in high-G -- this part I fully admit was<BR>
> fuzzy anyway. I was putting thoughts out there in an effort to (if I was<BR>
> lucky) hear other's ideas on the issue. On list, however, the main 'ideas' I<BR>
> have heard have been simply to stop with this and leave well enough alone,<BR>
> so I will. <BR>
<BR>
Actually, while your pressurized units are way over the top, simple<BR>
acceleration tanks could allow much higher accelerations than we<BR>
currently use in Traveller. Especially in "fighters". <BR>
<BR>
Alas, I don't think you can design a viable fighter that can *maintain*<BR>
that sort of acceleration long enough to be useful. :-(<BR>
<BR>
> (Off list, interestingly, I've received very positive responses on the<BR>
> whole, from people who do think about minutiae such as this...) It seems<BR>
> that the Traveller Universe is big enough for a variety of ideas.<BR>
<BR>
Yep!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:50:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Also, for a six or more legged vehicle, you can *always* have at least<BR>
>> three legs on the ground forming a stable tripod. With 8 legs, you even<BR>
>> have two spares. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> The big problem is ground pressure. Even with large pads on the end,<BR>
>> those legs will sink *deep* into ordinary ground.<BR>
><BR>
> Assuming tank-level mass, sure.  Assuming HMMWV mass, it isn't so bad.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that the "machinery" to make those legs work is a lot more<BR>
massive than what's required for wheels. And that there are going to be<BR>
situations where most or all of the vehicles weight is resting on one<BR>
leg of a "tripod" with the other two legs merely keeping it from<BR>
falling over.<BR>
<BR>
One thouth that's occured to me is that the ends of the legs not only<BR>
need "load plates", but the plates, need conical shrouds, to keep them<BR>
from getting stuck in soft earth or snagging on heavy brush.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:56:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Time Travel (Was Re: Protomatter?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Examples on the web.  Maybe you could point me to a few of those and I got<BR>
> wrench my own thoughts from them.  Thios sounds like an interesting plotline<BR>
> for my player.<BR>
<BR>
Do a search on "relativity". Or ask on rec.arts.sf.science. <BR>
I don't have site info handy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
>    Ah, but was a body found?  I don't think so.  You know<BR>
<BR>
>with Epic Hero's unless a body is found, they are not<BR>
dead.<BR>
<BR>
His body was never lost.  It fell right there where the<BR>
dragon got him, and his assistant went to look at the loot<BR>
and came back and told Beowulf about it.  It's been a long<BR>
time (over 20 years) since I read the story, but it seems<BR>
to me that Beowulf's funeral is the last part.  Maybe I can<BR>
pull it off the shelf and reread it tonight (in Old English<BR>
- -- and by the last part of the book, my Old English was<BR>
good enough that I wasn't keeping any translation notes, so<BR>
I'll have to retranslate at least some of it).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:49:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
<BR>
>Shows how much I know, Shaft was a /movie/, not a TV show.<BR>
<BR>
It was also a TV show, but the movies came first.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:52:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
><cue thumping techno soundtrack> Agamemnon took his woman.<BR>
<BR>
>Paris thought he took his life, but now, Achilles is back <BR>
>as you've never seen him before... and he's bringing the <BR>
[deletion]<BR>
>I:2! <obligatory stupid tagline: Achilles is such a heel.><BR>
<BR>
ROTFL, as the saying is.  You know, considering how well<BR>
Gladiator is doing at the box office, you might want to try<BR>
packaging this concept a little more and going to Hollywood<BR>
with it.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:02:28 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:16:00 -0700<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
><BR>
>Coming late this year in December...<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.scifi.com/dune/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well it certainly looks purty.<BR>
But then again so did the movie. (which was ok as long<BR>
as you weren't looking for a movie that had anything to do<BR>
with the book.)<BR>
<BR>
I'm increasingly of the opinion that since all of the<BR>
significant action in the book hapens as internal dialog<BR>
that Dune is in fact not filmable.<BR>
<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
  I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
  Icame in here for the special offer<BR>
  Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:17:04 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural icon etc. OT<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:12:21 -0400<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
>Subject: Cultural icon was Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
><BR>
>"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> puts out in the ether<BR>
>From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>> >>  Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it<BR>
tonight.<BR>
>> >>  OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?<BR>
>> >>  And, was Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
>> >>Ahem.<BR>
>> >Shaft came out in 1975 or thereabouts.<BR>
>>    Considering the fact that I was about 5 at the time, it would make<BR>
sense<BR>
>>that I do not know anything about the movie.<BR>
><BR>
>Shaft is a pop culture icon.  Will Smith made obvious references to him on<BR>
>his "FPoBA" show.<BR>
><BR>
>He even signed up for the "Shaft Wedding" in Vegas on episode.  Complete<BR>
>with a cameo by Issac Hayes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And the Simpsons episode where Bart and Lisa sing the Theme From Shaft<BR>
at a talent show. Shaft used to run on late night tv (allong with all sorts<BR>
of other<BR>
cool movies) all the time untill the advent of the infomercial. If you're<BR>
looking<BR>
for the cause of the decline of western civilization I say look no further<BR>
than<BR>
Ron Popeil and the Thigh Master.<BR>
<BR>
But enough OT ranting.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
  I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
  I came in here for the special offer<BR>
  Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:08:37 +1000<BR>
From: Cory Davis <c.davis@uws.edu.au><BR>
Subject: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
Hi all<BR>
<BR>
I'll just take a punt at this rank thing, something I would like to see is <BR>
O9 Navy as Flag Admiral so you would have an Admiral of the Red, Admiral of <BR>
the Yellow and so on (there's a list of colours representing the sectors <BR>
somewhere isn't there? )<BR>
<BR>
I disagree about the Marshal being for exclusive use of the Marines. Being <BR>
made a Marshall should be a big deal being awarded your Baton and <BR>
receiving  some noble title (being your first or otherwise)<BR>
<BR>
  I think the Ranks for Army and Marines should be the same from O6 and above<BR>
<BR>
Colonel<BR>
Brigadier<BR>
General<BR>
Marshall<BR>
Grand Marshall of Army/Marines<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
PS I agree with the RSM idea too<BR>
<BR>
just my 2c (but being in Australian currency now worth just over 1c)<BR>
<BR>
Cheers<BR>
<BR>
Cory<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:13:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
<BR>
>What sort of uniform would a crack squad of zen buddhists <BR>
>wear?<BR>
<BR>
Thank you for sharing this koan!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:21:15 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
>    Didn't Flash remove Ming from the rullership of Mongo <BR>
>a while back?<BR>
<BR>
Not in my Traveller universe -- or at least not as of the<BR>
beginning of the Fifth Frontier War, which is where all of<BR>
this Ming the Merciless stuff got started.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Religon: Word of God <BR>
<BR>
>From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
<BR>
>The doctrine was the hardest part of the article to<BR>
>write.  I didn't anything really wacky, I had written up<BR>
>some of the more wacky religions for Luhtala in<BR>
[deletion]<BR>
>They shouldn't lie, cheat, or steal.  I am kind of at a <BR>
>loss for more details.<BR>
>If you have any ideas for this please suggest them.<BR>
<BR>
I guess all of those religion courses I took in college<BR>
come in handy occasionally.  Of course I'm going to give<BR>
you questions and not answers.  These questions may help<BR>
you in formulating doctrine.<BR>
<BR>
What is the nature of God? personal/impersonal;<BR>
loving/aloof; vindictive/caring; direct communication<BR>
possible? <BR>
<BR>
Which is more important in general, belief or practice?  <BR>
<BR>
Which of those is more important in defining a person as a<BR>
member of the religion? Is there a ritual associated this<BR>
(like confirmation, bar mitzvah, baptism, etc.)? <BR>
<BR>
Salvation, redemption, sin:  are these important concepts?<BR>
in what ways?  what constitutes sin?  what is the nature of<BR>
salvation?<BR>
<BR>
How do ethics work? what are the roles of guilt and shame,<BR>
if any?<BR>
<BR>
Mythological elements:  other divine figures: competing<BR>
gods? demigods, angels, devils, monsters, etc? what do they<BR>
do? how do they communicate with us, if at all?  is there a<BR>
war between factions? how are we involved, if at all?  <BR>
<BR>
Mythological geography: paradise? hell? someplace between<BR>
(besides the shopping mall)? what are they called? how do<BR>
you get into them? can you go from one to the other? under<BR>
what circumstances?<BR>
<BR>
That is by no means an exhaustive list of issues in<BR>
creating a religious doctrine, but it may be a start.  I<BR>
hope that it helps.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:38:00 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Living Expenses<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:41:44 +0100<BR>
> From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
> Subject: Living Expenses<BR>
> <BR>
> Does anyone know what the general range of living costs<BR>
> are in GURPS: TRAVELLER.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm talking, food, housing, accomodation, public<BR>
> transport on a heavily populated<BR>
> GTL12 world.<BR>
> <BR>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction.<BR>
<BR>
General cost of living is a function of Status in GURPS; there is a table<BR>
on p. GT83 that lists monthly cost of living, from Cr100 for a Status -2<BR>
beggar to Cr50,000+ for a Status 7 Archduke (the Emperor doesn't have to<BR>
worry about such things).<BR>
<BR>
More detailed expenses can be approximated by US$1 = Cr1 (actually a<BR>
little less, since GURPS theoretically uses constant 1991 dollars). That<BR>
is, estimate the cost for an equivalent item or service in pounds, then<BR>
convert to dollars at the current exchange rate.<BR>
<BR>
There is also a good table on p. 51 of GURPS Space 3d ed. that can be used<BR>
pretty much as-is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:48:00 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Living Expenses<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Ben Aaronovitch <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 4:41 PM<BR>
Subject: Living Expenses<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Does anyone know what the general range of living costs<BR>
> are in GURPS: TRAVELLER.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm talking, food, housing, accomodation, public<BR>
> transport on a heavily populated<BR>
> GTL12 world.<BR>
> <BR>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction.<BR>
> <BR>
In GURPS: Space 1st ed. on page 37 there is a table of living costs:<BR>
<BR>
Status    $/month<BR>
- -1          200<BR>
0            500<BR>
1            1000<BR>
2            2000<BR>
3            4000<BR>
4            8000<BR>
5            15000<BR>
6            30000    <BR>
7            50000<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:55:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Charismatic vs. Bureaucratic Governments<BR>
<BR>
Hi, my second article on governments, "Empire of the Paper Pushers," was<BR>
published in last week's JTAS. The amount of feedback, though, suggests that<BR>
this article is a bit less popular than April's "Charismatic governments."<BR>
(That article got 52 votes, while "Empire of the Paper Pushers"<BR>
has been up for three days and has only received 17 so far.)<BR>
<BR>
I thought I'd ask for your direct feedback before I start working on a third<BR>
installment. Did any of you read both articles? If so, did you like one more<BR>
than<BR>
the other? What elements would you like to see more, and which would you<BR>
prefer to less of?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks a lot in advance,<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:00:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin the language master wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>to me that Beowulf's funeral is the last part.  Maybe I can<BR>
>pull it off the shelf and reread it tonight (in Old English<BR>
>-- and by the last part of the book, my Old English was<BR>
>good enough that I wasn't keeping any translation notes, so<BR>
>I'll have to retranslate at least some of it).<BR>
<BR>
I'm impressed. All I can remember of Old English is "se, thaes, thaem, ..."<BR>
When I was taking the class, I didn't remember much more.<BR>
<BR>
I think that an even better epic is the story of Beocat:<BR>
<BR>
"Brave Beocat, brood-kit of Ecgthmeow,<BR>
Hearth-pet of Hrothgar in whose high halls<BR>
He mauled without mercy many fat mice,<BR>
Night did not find napping nor snack-feasting..."<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that I should save the stories of Sanskrit class for when the OT<BR>
discussion moves in that direction.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:10:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Living Expenses<BR>
<BR>
Christopher Thrash writes:<BR>
<BR>
> General cost of living is a function of Status in GURPS; there is a table<BR>
> on p. GT83 that lists monthly cost of living, from Cr100 for a Status -2<BR>
> beggar to Cr50,000+ for a Status 7 Archduke (the Emperor doesn't have to<BR>
> worry about such things).<BR>
<BR>
Note that by and large, these costs should be in _local_ currency, not imperial credits.  This has no real relevance for GTL-12 worlds.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:02:49 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Rationalization of titles is well and good, but don't forget one<BR>
thing:  "Captain"  has a dual meaning in the Navy; a Captain may<BR>
either be a serviceman of rank O6 (equivalent to Army Colonel),<BR>
or the officer in command of a ship - and smaller ships may well<BR>
be commanded by lower-ranked officers.<BR>
<BR>
My gut says to retain the ship's master connotation of "Captain",<BR>
and drop it as a rank.  I'd also say that if you're going to<BR>
rationalize rank titles, drop the various modified versions;<BR>
i.e., have "Lieutenants", but not "Second Lieutenants",<BR>
"Lieutenants Junior Grade", and the like.  For flag officers,<BR>
using the modifier alone might be viable for some ranks, e.g.,<BR>
"Brigadier" (not "Brigadier General") for the one-star rank.<BR>
<BR>
Also, I'd say to feel free to mix and match from different<BR>
organizations; for example, as has been mentioned, the British<BR>
(used to) use "subaltern" for (IIRC) Lieutenant; most European<BR>
armed forces use Marshal for the five-star rank (and the U.S.<BR>
doesn't solely because the first recipient of the rank refused to<BR>
be called "Marshal Marshall").  The U.S. Navy and Coast Guard<BR>
rank titles seem to differ significantly from the other U.S.<BR>
services; use them if necessary or desirable to fill in gaps.<BR>
Other paramilitary or pseudomilitary organizations may change the<BR>
rank titles as well; borrow where appropriate (e.g., NY police<BR>
use "Inspector" for the Colonel-equivalent rank, and "Chief"<BR>
suitably modified for the General-equivalent ranks - but note<BR>
that "Chief" in police may be like "Captain" in the Navy; that<BR>
is, a small-town force, headed up by someone of rank Captain, may<BR>
still call Captain Smith "Chief Smith".  The old Roman titles<BR>
(Centurion, for example), or titles derived from the Roman<BR>
organizational units (Legion, Cohort, etc.) may also be useful -<BR>
plus semantic equivalents from the Vilani, as has already been<BR>
mentioned, or the Syleans (since it was the Syleans that were the<BR>
driving force behind the Third Imperium).<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:20:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
>And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
>  "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
>   shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
>   gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
>   die."<BR>
<BR>
Is this from the movie, "Blade Runner" ? -- An outstanding movie.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:30:22 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
DaveShayne wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:57:16 +1000<BR>
> >From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
> >Subject: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I was rebuilding my mail files the other night and came across a post I<BR>
> >had made...part of it below...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 'The problem,' said the Doctor, 'is that you are astonishingly bad at<BR>
> >utilising this diversity. Faced with an agrarian culture with a<BR>
> >non-linear temporal perception, do you send in crack squad of Zen<BR>
> >Buddhists?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The question that sprang to mind was: What sort of uniform would a crack<BR>
> >squad of zen buddhists wear?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Other Rob<BR>
><BR>
> The question I have is, "What is the explosive yield of one atom fusing?"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Fish.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:31:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
Many Zen Buddhist monks wear dark gray, which seems quite<BR>
appropriate to covert/special ops.  Remember that many<BR>
samurai were Zen Buddhists, too, so this subject isn't<BR>
quite as quirky as it seems.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:33:56 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
><BR>
> >>     Even badder than Shaft, but not as bad as Hawk.  I do believe that<BR>
> Hawk<BR>
> >> could kick the snot out of 2 Kzin in Hand to Hand combat while unarmed,<BR>
> with<BR>
> >> one hand tied behind his back & drunk.<BR>
><BR>
> >And we all know what happened to Hawk...he got his own space station and<BR>
> beat up<BR>
> >on a para-cosmic entity with god like powers...<BR>
><BR>
>     You forgot about one thing, Other Rob, you forgot about one thing, & as<BR>
> I am a king gentlebeing, I will tell you what it is, but I will also give<BR>
> some spoiler space so the people who do not want to know, will not have to<BR>
> know.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Sisko is a Demi-God, or as close to a Demi-God as you can get, his<BR>
> father was human, his mother though was one of the Bajoran Prophits.  *weg*<BR>
> So he could punch Q because he was Q's equal.<BR>
<BR>
Which season does this information become available? we only just finished<BR>
season 5 here.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2540<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:33:57 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:33:18 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA90952;<BR>
	Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:32:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:32:06 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA90899<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:32:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:32:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006020032.UAA90899@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2540<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2541</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/1/00 10:15:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 2 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2541<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
plug for gearheads<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Charismatic vs. Bureaucratic Governments<BR>
Re: Living Expenses<BR>
Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re : Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Re: plug for gearheads<BR>
Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Cultural icon etc. OT<BR>
Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:36:45 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Mecha vs. Grav Tanks<BR>
<BR>
Antti Lahtinen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  > Now, all of this is just hand-waving to some degree, but it is<BR>
>  > sufficiently convincing (IMO) to allow play in a mech universe without<BR>
>  > snapping my suspension of disbelief.  This is especially the case with<BR>
>  > smaller mechs (a la Heavy Gear*). The really big monsters (a la Battle<BR>
>  > Tech) I don't really like.<BR>
><BR>
>         I tried to design mechs with TNE/FF&S1, and the results were not<BR>
>         very impressive. There were problems with large surface areas<BR>
>         (too heavy armor), huge ground pressures and massive suspension/<BR>
>         locomotion systems. Eventually I found very little reason for<BR>
>         building a huge mech when a small tank would be much better<BR>
>         vehicle in most situations.<BR>
><BR>
>         However, a small-scale mech which can walk inside a building<BR>
>         might be convenient in some situations. The "exo-suits" in<BR>
>         "Jovian Chronicles" are nice examples, and similar vehicles can<BR>
>         be build with FF&S1.<BR>
<BR>
 This is the scale I was really after...exo-suits and exo-armours not the 10m<BR>
and taller mechs/meks/whatevers...I started out in Mekton Zeta because the<BR>
mech design is easy...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:38:47 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead question...Mecha vs Gravtanks<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >    The reason I ask is, my Trinity campaign world was initally built in<BR>
> >Mekton Z... with Mecha a large part of life...powersuits needed on the<BR>
> >surface for survival...roadstriker scale for PC combat and the 30 ft<BR>
> >giants being the 'big stick' for the game...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >    Would a G:T/G:Mecha crossover work?<BR>
><BR>
> I reckon it would work well.<BR>
><BR>
> Traveller 2300 had mechs, and Trav 2300 is not too disimilar from CT in<BR>
> feel.<BR>
><BR>
> I have done a Jovian Chronicles game that morphed into a Trav2300 game<BR>
> when the Jovians went interstellar.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Friend of mine is thinking of the same...using JC rules and Vernor Vinge's "A<BR>
Deepness in the Sky" for a setting...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:02:51 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
John Wood wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> While developing Prilissa I have been thinking about some of the<BR>
> consequences of tidelocking. Here's a few thoughts and questions; feel<BR>
> free to make corrections or add more.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. There is no real equator; the only (meteorologically) significant<BR>
> great circle is the twilight belt. However, the plane of orbit will pass<BR>
> through the bright and dark "poles" and cartographers can use the<BR>
> leading line as the prime meridian.<BR>
><BR>
> What names can I use for the directions? I could just say that North is<BR>
> towards the bright pole and go from there but would rather use something<BR>
> less arbitrary. Brightward/Darkward is fine; what about an East-<BR>
> equivalent and a West-equivalent?<BR>
><BR>
> 2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
> year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit. Highport can<BR>
> pick an orbit that will take it above most of the important downports.<BR>
><BR>
> What satellite-based technologies on Earth today require geostationary<BR>
> orbit? Will this have any other effect on traffic patterns?<BR>
><BR>
> 3. There is no coriolis force, so fluids will not have a tendency to<BR>
> circle in any particular direction. Bathwater will go straight down the<BR>
> plughole, winds and currents will be very different from Earth's.<BR>
><BR>
> Will there be hurricanes? What will weather be like on various parts of<BR>
> Prilissa? Here's an ASCII map for those of you who can't see the map at<BR>
> http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Prilissa.html:<BR>
><BR>
>          BRIGHT FACE    ___<BR>
>                        /   \<--Circle Sea<BR>
>      ___             __\   /________<BR>
>         \           |   . . .<BR>
>          \           \. o ISLANDS<BR>
>          |  LAND    _/<BR>
>           \        /<BR>
>           |       |   SEA<BR>
>            \      /<BR>
>             \    /<BR>
>              \__/<BR>
>           DARK FACE<BR>
><BR>
> I'm particularly interested in conditions on and around the Circle Sea.<BR>
><BR>
> Any more thoughts welcome.<BR>
<BR>
There will be constant air flow  lightside to darkside at high altitude and<BR>
the reverse at low altitude...simple physics. The heat of the sun at the<BR>
north pole causes the air to rise this causes an inflow of air...drawn<BR>
eventually from the darkface...the high altitude airflow eventually reaces<BR>
the darkside...cools and sinks...and cycles through again...this is probably<BR>
why the north pole is dry...<BR>
<BR>
I am not a meteorologist so YMMV<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 21:12:02 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: plug for gearheads<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller Gearhead webring is up to 36 members.  Stop by and see if <BR>
there is any nifty gear for you to use.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=travgearhead;home<BR>
<BR>
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=travgearhead;list<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free<BR>
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be<BR>
infringed.  -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:03:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/31/00 9:50 PM, legate@futureone.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
> OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?  And, was<BR>
> Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
<BR>
That one is a a remake, and it was from a passing comment by Sam on the<BR>
Rosie show (no, I don't /watch/ it, was just passing by) that clued me in it<BR>
was origionally a movie, not a TV show. Of course he'll be good, is Mr.<BR>
Jackson not a superb actor? ;) BTW, the origional Shaft actor will be in the<BR>
movie as "Shaft", Sam is playing his nephew.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:06:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
At 09:08 AM 6/2/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I disagree about the Marshal being for exclusive use of the Marines. Being <BR>
>made a Marshall should be a big deal being awarded your Baton and <BR>
>receiving  some noble title (being your first or otherwise)<BR>
<BR>
In GF, Marshal is the commander of a subsector army, as well as a seldom<BR>
seen Marine rank.<BR>
<BR>
>  I think the Ranks for Army and Marines should be the same from O6 and above<BR>
<BR>
If I had done that, I would be accused of Yank in Spaceism.  The rank<BR>
tabvles diverge slightly.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:09:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
At 05:20 PM 6/1/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
>>  "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off <BR>
>>  the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the <BR>
>>  Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in <BR>
>>  rain. Time to die."<BR>
><BR>
>Is this from the movie, "Blade Runner" ? -- An outstanding movie.<BR>
<BR>
Roy's final words, as he and Decker lie wounded and exhausted on the roof.<BR>
<BR>
*plug* This Sunday, Sci-Fi channel will be running Blade Runner in wide<BR>
screen.  If you never have seen this film, make plans to watch it.  I<BR>
always saw the film's Los Angeles as what Efate's capital city would look<BR>
like.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:14:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Charismatic vs. Bureaucratic Governments<BR>
<BR>
At 07:55 PM 6/1/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I thought I'd ask for your direct feedback before I start working on a third<BR>
>installment. Did any of you read both articles?<BR>
<BR>
I've read both, and enjoyed them.  Can't really say what to improve on,<BR>
just remember that JTAS has a small reader base that will actually bother<BR>
to rate each article.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 03:10:52 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Living Expenses<BR>
<BR>
> > Can anyone point me in the right direction.<BR>
><BR>
> General cost of living is a function of Status in<BR>
GURPS; there is a table<BR>
> on p. GT83 that lists monthly cost of living, from<BR>
Cr100 for a Status -2<BR>
> beggar to Cr50,000+ for a Status 7 Archduke (the<BR>
Emperor doesn't have to<BR>
> worry about such things).<BR>
><BR>
> More detailed expenses can be approximated by US$1 =<BR>
Cr1 (actually a<BR>
> little less, since GURPS theoretically uses constant<BR>
1991 dollars). That<BR>
> is, estimate the cost for an equivalent item or<BR>
service in pounds, then<BR>
> convert to dollars at the current exchange rate.<BR>
><BR>
> There is also a good table on p. 51 of GURPS Space 3d<BR>
ed. that can be used<BR>
> pretty much as-is.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
G:S 3e is on order.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:01:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:16:00 -0700<BR>
>>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>>Subject: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Coming late this year in December...<BR>
>><BR>
>>http://www.scifi.com/dune/<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Well it certainly looks purty.<BR>
> But then again so did the movie. (which was ok as long<BR>
> as you weren't looking for a movie that had anything to do<BR>
> with the book.)<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth, Frank Herbert was involved with making the movie<BR>
and *liked* it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:14:32 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Here's my Cr 0.02.<BR>
Justice Hypercleats wrote :-<BR>
> Now, where he *really* laid in on me was in my examples of various solutions<BR>
> to the problems posed to humans in high-G -- this part I fully admit was<BR>
> fuzzy anyway.<BR>
<BR>
'Womb tanks' are the only way to go if we postulate any sort of decent<BR>
sustained acceleration (4+G's for a number of hours, 18+G's the 'muscle<BR>
control' limit, 80+G's for a second or so).*<BR>
<BR>
Leonard's already discussed the structural problems with having<BR>
fully overpressurised ship hulls or flexible suits.<BR>
<BR>
As he has also touched on, there are physiological problems<BR>
associated with overpressurisation. <BR>
Most notably, the high-pressure nervous syndrome (HPNS) occurs with<BR>
ambient pressures of above 3-4 atmospheres absolute (ATA).<BR>
<BR>
It is characterised by tremors and drowsiness and is due to pressure<BR>
alone, not gas mix. Beyond this, intoxication, confusion, general<BR>
anaesthesia and death presumably ensue over the next few ATA increase<BR>
in pressure.<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to investigate the physiological adaptations of deep-dwelling<BR>
fish and invertebrates to get around this problem.<BR>
<BR>
The pressurisation levels described in Haldeman's 'Forever War' are<BR>
impossible, as are the speed of the (de)compression cycles (30 minutes<BR>
to ~500 ATA and back ; Ch. 2 of the 'Sergeant Mandella' part of<BR>
the story). <BR>
<BR>
Liquid ventilation (LV) has been possible for nearly 30 years. The<BR>
perflurocarbon liquids used can contain enough dissolved oxygen to meet<BR>
the needs of rats and mice. LV also been used experimentally in<BR>
Intensive Care to ventilate patients with adult respiratory distress<BR>
syndrome. You basically pour the stuff into someone's endotracheal<BR>
tube until you can see a fluid level.<BR>
<BR>
Work of breathing isn't increased very much because of the change in<BR>
elastic properties of the lung when it's full of fluid.<BR>
<BR>
The problems are with removing carbon dioxide, circulating the fluid,<BR>
and the uncertain long-term effects on lung function with chronic use.<BR>
<BR>
The transition from liquid to air breathing can be prolonged and messy.<BR>
<BR>
I think gravitics makes things a lot easier, and agree with Walt Smith.<BR>
However, I think that there should be overdrive inertial compensation<BR>
e.g. for crash protection. Protect the occupants of a vehicle from<BR>
the deceleration of a collision, slag the compensators.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
* based on an article that appeared in Analog in Feb/March 1998,<BR>
quoted by Leonard Erickson on 5 March 1998 in TravTech digest #107.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:24:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
John Wood wrote :-<BR>
> What names can I use for the directions? I could just say that North is<BR>
> towards the bright pole and go from there but would rather use something<BR>
> less arbitrary. Brightward/Darkward is fine; what about an East-<BR>
> equivalent and a West-equivalent?<BR>
<BR>
In the direction of some constellation? (there should be a local<BR>
zodiac).<BR>
Or impose an arbitrary meridian (through the chief settlement a la<BR>
Greenwich?) - plus time, minus time?<BR>
<BR>
> Will there be hurricanes? What will weather be like on various parts of<BR>
> Prilissa? <BR>
How cold does it get on the dark side?<BR>
If not too cold (liquid oxygen?), how is the temperature maintained<BR>
The average surface temperature is 296K on the bright face.<BR>
Is the situation unstable (all the warm air circulates to the dark side<BR>
and precipiates out?) Or what?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:31:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: plug for gearheads<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/1/00 6:12 PM, urbin@bigfoot.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The Traveller Gearhead webring is up to 36 members.<BR>
<BR>
I saw a link to a page by "Moosepuppy", but it seems the link is dead. I was<BR>
/so/ looking forward to seeing what kind of ships a "Moosepuppy" would<BR>
build.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:58:32 -0500<BR>
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
> The term "Gunnery Sergeant" is a uniquely Marine rank and I would use it<BR>
> much like the navy uses Petty Officer.<BR>
<BR>
Also don't overlook the navy's rank of Commandore as a one star admiral.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:16:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin the language master wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>to me that Beowulf's funeral is the last part.  Maybe I can<BR>
>>pull it off the shelf and reread it tonight (in Old English<BR>
>>-- and by the last part of the book, my Old English was<BR>
>>good enough that I wasn't keeping any translation notes, so<BR>
>>I'll have to retranslate at least some of it).<BR>
><BR>
> I'm impressed. All I can remember of Old English is "se, thaes, thaem, ..."<BR>
> When I was taking the class, I didn't remember much more.<BR>
><BR>
> I think that an even better epic is the story of Beocat:<BR>
><BR>
> "Brave Beocat, brood-kit of Ecgthmeow,<BR>
> Hearth-pet of Hrothgar in whose high halls<BR>
> He mauled without mercy many fat mice,<BR>
> Night did not find napping nor snack-feasting..."<BR>
<BR>
I picked up a copy of Beowabbit at a charity auction at a con last<BR>
year. It even has a copy of the first page of the original manuscript.<BR>
Alas, many of the characters are non-ASCII, so you'll have to settle<BR>
for the translation:<BR>
<BR>
WHAT?		WE QUARTERSTAFS?	WE BE NOT<BR>
We be men 	of tribe Boxjutes<BR>
who with Wealaf		wiped wide Wundorcwen<BR>
tribe unmanly	and not nice,<BR>
who with Facenstafas,	noble north tribe<BR>
ganged up on Ganots	much great tribute<BR>
from them took		oft at spearpoint.<BR>
<BR>
<and it goes on for *pages*><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:28:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural icon etc. OT<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> And the Simpsons episode where Bart and Lisa sing the Theme From<BR>
> Shaft at a talent show. Shaft used to run on late night tv (allong<BR>
> with all sorts of other cool movies) all the time untill the advent<BR>
> of the infomercial. If you're looking for the cause of the decline of<BR>
> western civilization I say look no further than Ron Popeil and the<BR>
> Thigh Master.<BR>
<BR>
> But enough OT ranting.<BR>
<BR>
Ah! But who says it's off topic?<BR>
<BR>
Just consider. In any given system, you can keep selling something like<BR>
Thighmaster(tm) for a few months. But be then, you've shipped<BR>
commercials and units to neighboring systems (or licensed them for<BR>
production there). <BR>
<BR>
So there will be *waves* of such "junk products" spreading slowly<BR>
across the Imperium, as each medium to high TL world gets the "craze"<BR>
(or falls for the junk).<BR>
<BR>
It'll provide steady income for *generations* if handled right.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:32:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> While developing Prilissa I have been thinking about some of the<BR>
> consequences of tidelocking. Here's a few thoughts and questions; feel<BR>
> free to make corrections or add more.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. There is no real equator; the only (meteorologically) significant<BR>
> great circle is the twilight belt. However, the plane of orbit will pass<BR>
> through the bright and dark "poles" and cartographers can use the<BR>
> leading line as the prime meridian.<BR>
<BR>
There's *still* an equator. The planet is still rotating with respect<BR>
to the *stars*.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, unless the orbit is perfectly circular, the terminator *will*<BR>
move slightly. You see, the planet moves faster during the part of the<BR>
orbit where it's closer to the sun, and slower during the part where it<BR>
is farther away. But the planet's *rotation* is more constant.<BR>
<BR>
So, from the center of brightside, the sun creeps a bit closer to one<BR>
horizon during fast part of the orbit (I *think* it'll be closer to the<BR>
ne in the direction of the planet's rotation) and creep back to the<BR>
center and then a bit the *other* way during the slower part of the<BR>
orbit. <BR>
<BR>
Likewise, the terminator shifts equally. <BR>
<BR>
> What names can I use for the directions? I could just say that North is<BR>
> towards the bright pole and go from there but would rather use something<BR>
> less arbitrary. Brightward/Darkward is fine; what about an East-<BR>
> equivalent and a West-equivalent?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, since the terminator *does* shift, that gives you a north and<BR>
south pole where it *doesn't* shift. The equator is obvious.<BR>
Personally, I'd put the prime meridian thru the center of dayside. So<BR>
east & west go from there. And meet in the center of backside, an area<BR>
of little interest to anybody but astronomers.<BR>
<BR>
They might *also* speak of a measurement based on stellar altitude (ie<BR>
how far above the horizon the star is). No idea what they'd call that. <BR>
<BR>
> 2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
> year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit. Highport can<BR>
> pick an orbit that will take it above most of the important downports.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there are ways to get a stationary platform using solar<BR>
sails. Dr. Forward has a patent on such "statites". They do tend to be<BR>
pretty far out. For example, one above one of Earth's poles would be<BR>
something like 150 diameters out.<BR>
<BR>
It's also possible to place them between the planet and the star. (No,<BR>
I don't have formulas, you'll have to work it out yourself from the<BR>
solar sail tables someone on the list has). <BR>
<BR>
> What satellite-based technologies on Earth today require geostationary<BR>
> orbit? Will this have any other effect on traffic patterns?<BR>
<BR>
Sattellite TV, some weather sats. Satellite based relays that aren't<BR>
stationary require antennas that can track them. that requires<BR>
precision motors. Not *high* precision, but likely more precise than<BR>
the motor in an analog clock. And much bigger.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 21:08:23 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
This is for "Rim of Fire".<BR>
<BR>
Are there any other canon pictures of specific Solomani ships aside from<BR>
those that are in "Rats & Cats"?<BR>
<BR>
Also, if some kind soul could send me RoF playtest file I'd appreciate it.<BR>
I'd thought I'd grabbed it from Pyramid already, but apparently didn't and<BR>
they're pulled the files (which means I need to get my ass MOVIN'!!!!)  I'd<BR>
asked Phil & Loren to send it to me today, but didn't hear back from them so<BR>
I'm useing the backup plan :)<BR>
<BR>
Thx!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:37:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Shaft has not come out yet.  I mean, I JUST saw the ad for it tonight.<BR>
>>OK.  Come one, how did you get to see Shaft before everyone else?  And,<BR>
was<BR>
>>Sam Jackson good in it?<BR>
><BR>
>the *original* movie came out in 1971.  The new one is a sort of sequel<BR>
>with Jackson as Shaft's nephew.<BR>
><BR>
>http://us.imdb.com/Title?0067741<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Doug,<BR>
<BR>
    This looks like a cool movie.  I think I am going to have to look for it<BR>
on video.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:38:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
<BR>
>That one is a a remake, and it was from a passing comment by Sam on the<BR>
>Rosie show (no, I don't /watch/ it, was just passing by) that clued me in<BR>
it<BR>
>was origionally a movie, not a TV show. Of course he'll be good, is Mr.<BR>
>Jackson not a superb actor? ;) BTW, the origional Shaft actor will be in<BR>
the<BR>
>movie as "Shaft", Sam is playing his nephew.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Cool, but how many of you would rather see Avery Brooks in a good movie?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:56:08 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
Cory Davis wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all<BR>
><BR>
> I'll just take a punt at this rank thing, something I would like to see is<BR>
> O9 Navy as Flag Admiral so you would have an Admiral of the Red, Admiral of<BR>
> the Yellow and so on (there's a list of colours representing the sectors<BR>
> somewhere isn't there? )<BR>
<BR>
Colored starbursts designate different services.<BR>
Emperor: Gold<BR>
Navy: Yellow<BR>
Marines: Maroon<BR>
Army: Black<BR>
Scouts: Red<BR>
<BR>
So that would be confusing.  Plust, "Admiral of the Red"<BR>
just sounds dumb to me.  Unless I'm "Admiral of the Bloo." :-)<BR>
No offense to color admirals that exist.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I disagree about the Marshal being for exclusive use of the Marines. Being<BR>
> made a Marshall should be a big deal being awarded your Baton and<BR>
> receiving  some noble title (being your first or otherwise)<BR>
<BR>
That's fine.  This is strictly IMTU, but I welcome input<BR>
from all.<BR>
<BR>
What's the deal with a Baton?  For leading the parade?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:05:35 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rationalization of titles is well and good, but don't forget one<BR>
> thing:  "Captain"  has a dual meaning in the Navy;.<BR>
<BR>
Of course.<BR>
<BR>
> My gut says to retain the ship's master connotation of "Captain",<BR>
> and drop it as a rank.<BR>
<BR>
Thought about that but I don't want to create new ranks<BR>
that I don't have to.  And since every service has a Captain<BR>
rank title, it would be a very big deal to change it.<BR>
<BR>
>  I'd also say that if you're going to<BR>
> rationalize rank titles, drop the various modified versions;<BR>
> i.e., have "Lieutenants", but not "Second Lieutenants",<BR>
> "Lieutenants Junior Grade", and the like.<BR>
<BR>
Done.<BR>
<BR>
> For flag officers, using the modifier alone might be viable for some<BR>
> ranks, e.g.,<BR>
> "Brigadier" (not "Brigadier General") for the one-star rank.<BR>
<BR>
In daily conversation, sure.  I think I'll just remove "Brigadier"<BR>
altogether, and have just "General", though "Brigadier General"<BR>
can be used to distinguish a regular Army O7 from a COACC<BR>
O7 Air General and a Wet Navy Fleet General.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, I'd say to feel free to mix and match from different<BR>
> organizations; for example, as has been mentioned, the British<BR>
> (used to) use "subaltern" for (IIRC) Lieutenant;<BR>
<BR>
I'm against all "Sub-" titles.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Have you seen my page yet?<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/milranks.htm<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:49:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 'Womb tanks' are the only way to go if we postulate any sort of decent<BR>
> sustained acceleration (4+G's for a number of hours, 18+G's the 'muscle<BR>
> control' limit, 80+G's for a second or so).*<BR>
<BR>
And I'm still waiting for someone to design a fighter that *uses* that<BR>
"hours at 4 g" limit. And has an 18g "emergency jink" capability if<BR>
sensors detect a shot that's going to be too close. And maybe an 80 g<BR>
"oh shit!" one-time burst capability (ejection seats use this limit<BR>
currently). <BR>
<BR>
I'd also expect that like we do now, think'll select for pilots with<BR>
better than average g-tolerance. That might give you 5 or 6 gs.<BR>
<BR>
And remember, these accelerations are *above and beyond* what the<BR>
g-comps can handle. <BR>
<BR>
A 10-g to 12 g fighter is a *far* different threat than a 6-g fighter.<BR>
Especially if they "hold back" until they get into what *should be*<BR>
"certain kill" range for your point defense systems.<BR>
<BR>
> The pressurisation levels described in Haldeman's 'Forever War' are<BR>
> impossible, as are the speed of the (de)compression cycles (30 minutes<BR>
> to ~500 ATA and back ; Ch. 2 of the 'Sergeant Mandella' part of<BR>
> the story). <BR>
<BR>
I think the current "extreme limit" for any sort of "pressurized to<BR>
ambient" diving is less that 2000 feet. That's less than 60 atm. <BR>
<BR>
> Liquid ventilation (LV) has been possible for nearly 30 years. The<BR>
> perflurocarbon liquids used can contain enough dissolved oxygen to meet<BR>
> the needs of rats and mice. LV also been used experimentally in<BR>
> Intensive Care to ventilate patients with adult respiratory distress<BR>
> syndrome.<BR>
<BR>
I thought I saw something about using it, with some sort of additive on<BR>
patients with "slightly scorched" lungs? (forgiven the non-medical<BR>
description!) <BR>
<BR>
> You basically pour the stuff into someone's endotracheal tube until<BR>
> you can see a fluid level.<BR>
<BR>
Ugh!<BR>
<BR>
> Work of breathing isn't increased very much because of the change in<BR>
> elastic properties of the lung when it's full of fluid.<BR>
><BR>
> The problems are with removing carbon dioxide, circulating the fluid,<BR>
> and the uncertain long-term effects on lung function with chronic use.<BR>
><BR>
> The transition from liquid to air breathing can be prolonged and messy.<BR>
<BR>
Gasping, choking, coughing up fluid... yeah, I'd consider that messy.<BR>
And having had *prolonged* coughing fits from far more minor<BR>
irritations when I was a child, I don't even want to *think* about this<BR>
too hard. (I coughed so bad I was having trouble finding time to<BR>
*inhale* between spasms)<BR>
 <BR>
> I think gravitics makes things a lot easier, and agree with Walt Smith.<BR>
> However, I think that there should be overdrive inertial compensation<BR>
> e.g. for crash protection. Protect the occupants of a vehicle from<BR>
> the deceleration of a collision, slag the compensators.<BR>
<BR>
Good thought. A *lot* of stuff could use info on what the limits are in<BR>
"I don't *care* if it burns out in 10 seconds!" situations are.<BR>
<BR>
> * based on an article that appeared in Analog in Feb/March 1998,<BR>
> quoted by Leonard Erickson on 5 March 1998 in TravTech digest #107.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2541<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:15:30 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:14:56 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id BAA01724;<BR>
	Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:08:42 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:08:37 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id BAA01694<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:08:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:08:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006020508.BAA01694@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2541<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2542</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/2/00 6:52:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 2 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2542<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
Re: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
Re: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
RE: mil ranks again<BR>
RE: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
Re: Cultural Icon Now with a New & Improved ObTrav<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
Re: Dune miniseries<BR>
Seeking advice on old CT books<BR>
Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
Freefall<BR>
Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:10:13 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In GF, Marshal is the commander of a subsector army, as well as a seldom<BR>
> seen Marine rank.<BR>
<BR>
You changed it from the playtest material?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:13:59 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
Alex Ingram wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > The term "Gunnery Sergeant" is a uniquely Marine rank and I would use it<BR>
> > much like the navy uses Petty Officer.<BR>
<BR>
Not sure who the original poster of that is, but thanks.<BR>
I can adjust my material to incorporate that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Also don't overlook the navy's rank of Commandore as a one star admiral.<BR>
<BR>
I hadn't thought about that, but I think it works.  Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:34:36 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
At 2:08 AM -0400 5/25/00, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  > Isn't Vilia/Garda-Vilis a multi system polity?<BR>
><BR>
>Depends on who you ask.  Vilis would say so.<BR>
>The Imperium would disagree for the moment,<BR>
>since it is and Imperium Protectorate (at least<BR>
>mostly).  The Tanoosians would say "Hell No!<BR>
>Here, hold this pineapple, I'll be right back."<BR>
>"Hey, this isn't a KA-BOOOM!<BR>
<BR>
In Broadsword it is state that the ruling council<BR>
for the world is composed of military officiers<BR>
from Vilis.  If Vilis government institutions rule<BR>
it and it isn't a multisystem polity, what is the<BR>
defination of the term?<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:12:46 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> All "Chiefs" are E7, all "Masters" are E8, no "Firsts"<BR>
> <BR>
> Better?<BR>
> <BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
It certainly makes it more consistent across the services, and therefore<BR>
easier for the cadets and recruits to sh** bricks when they run into one :-)<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:41:30 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
Have you checked the Solomani Alien Module ? <BR>
<BR>
There might be a SolSec adventures in the early Challenges in the 36-38<BR>
range IIRC, but I think that the ship pictures are just generic.<BR>
<BR>
There is always the Solomani ships from TNE, the Vitrix springs to mind,<BR>
wasn't this a Solomani design ?<BR>
<BR>
I don't have my collection with me, so I'm going from memory, but I hope<BR>
this helps.<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This is for "Rim of Fire".<BR>
> <BR>
> Are there any other canon pictures of specific Solomani ships aside from<BR>
> those that are in "Rats & Cats"?<BR>
><BR>
> Thx!<BR>
> Jesse<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:50:46 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
And I almost forgot Earth in the 57th century, Travellers Digest 13 (?).<BR>
<BR>
I can't remember if there are ship pics in it, but it's worth checking out.<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:48:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Cory Davis<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, 1 June 2000 3:09 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
> Subject: mil ranks again<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Hi all<BR>
><BR>
> I'll just take a punt at this rank thing, something I would like<BR>
> to see is<BR>
> O9 Navy as Flag Admiral so you would have an Admiral of the Red,<BR>
> Admiral of<BR>
> the Yellow and so on (there's a list of colours representing the sectors<BR>
> somewhere isn't there? )<BR>
><BR>
> I disagree about the Marshal being for exclusive use of the<BR>
> Marines. Being<BR>
> made a Marshall should be a big deal being awarded your Baton and<BR>
> receiving  some noble title (being your first or otherwise)<BR>
><BR>
>   I think the Ranks for Army and Marines should be the same from<BR>
> O6 and above<BR>
><BR>
> Colonel<BR>
> Brigadier<BR>
> General<BR>
> Marshall<BR>
> Grand Marshall of Army/Marines<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> PS I agree with the RSM idea too<BR>
><BR>
> just my 2c (but being in Australian currency now worth just over 1c)<BR>
><BR>
> Cheers<BR>
><BR>
> Cory<BR>
><BR>
> And in any case totally unavailable since the 2c coin was abolished in<BR>
Australia some years ago. The smallest coin in now the 5c piece which is<BR>
worth about 2c<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:48:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Alex Ingram<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, 1 June 2000 7:59 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > The term "Gunnery Sergeant" is a uniquely Marine rank and I would use it<BR>
> > much like the navy uses Petty Officer.<BR>
><BR>
> Also don't overlook the navy's rank of Commandore as a one star admiral.<BR>
><BR>
And don't forget the Skymarshal who has to command both a regiment of mobile<BR>
infantry and a capital ship before he/she can achieve this exalted rank.<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:48:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jesse<BR>
> DeGraff<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, 1 June 2000 8:08 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> This is for "Rim of Fire".<BR>
><BR>
> Are there any other canon pictures of specific Solomani ships aside from<BR>
> those that are in "Rats & Cats"?<BR>
><BR>
> Also, if some kind soul could send me RoF playtest file I'd appreciate it.<BR>
> I'd thought I'd grabbed it from Pyramid already, but apparently didn't and<BR>
> they're pulled the files (which means I need to get my ass<BR>
> MOVIN'!!!!)  I'd<BR>
> asked Phil & Loren to send it to me today, but didn't hear back<BR>
> from them so<BR>
> I'm useing the backup plan :)<BR>
><BR>
> Thx!<BR>
> Jesse<BR>
><BR>
> There was a picture of the Solomani Endeavour class patrol ship on the box<BR>
art of one of FASAs old Adventure class ships boxed sets. I was so impressed<BR>
I did a TNE version with a spinal PA.<BR>
I don't know what the status of the copyright of these designs and art work<BR>
in these FASA products is, especially as some of the designs were High Guard<BR>
versions of standard designs.<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:50:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ewan Quibell<BR>
> Sent: Friday, 2 June 2000 12:42 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Have you checked the Solomani Alien Module ?<BR>
><BR>
> There might be a SolSec adventures in the early Challenges in the 36-38<BR>
> range IIRC, but I think that the ship pictures are just generic.<BR>
><BR>
> There is always the Solomani ships from TNE, the Vitrix springs to mind,<BR>
> wasn't this a Solomani design ?<BR>
><BR>
> I don't have my collection with me, so I'm going from memory, but I hope<BR>
> this helps.<BR>
><BR>
> Ewan<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > This is for "Rim of Fire".<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Are there any other canon pictures of specific Solomani ships aside from<BR>
> > those that are in "Rats & Cats"?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Thx!<BR>
> > Jesse<BR>
><BR>
Just thought of another one, the Cobra class raider in one of the challenge<BR>
magazines.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:16:14 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural Icon Now with a New & Improved ObTrav<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:28:12 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Cultural icon etc. OT<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> And the Simpsons episode where Bart and Lisa sing the Theme From<BR>
>> Shaft at a talent show. Shaft used to run on late night tv (allong<BR>
>> with all sorts of other cool movies) all the time untill the advent<BR>
>> of the infomercial. If you're looking for the cause of the decline of<BR>
>> western civilization I say look no further than Ron Popeil and the<BR>
>> Thigh Master.<BR>
><BR>
>> But enough OT ranting.<BR>
><BR>
>Ah! But who says it's off topic?<BR>
><BR>
>Just consider. In any given system, you can keep selling something like<BR>
>Thighmaster(tm) for a few months. But be then, you've shipped<BR>
>commercials and units to neighboring systems (or licensed them for<BR>
>production there).<BR>
><BR>
>So there will be *waves* of such "junk products" spreading slowly<BR>
>across the Imperium, as each medium to high TL world gets the "craze"<BR>
>(or falls for the junk).<BR>
><BR>
>It'll provide steady income for *generations* if handled right.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Or closer to my original point. A world attempts to ban the long form Tri-D<BR>
Infoholos used to advertise these products on the basis that it cuts into<BR>
the<BR>
air time needed for the transmission of local epic historical fiction<BR>
operetas. Imperial bureaucrats (perhaps in the pay of RayCo) feel this is an<BR>
ilegal<BR>
infringement upon commerce.<BR>
<BR>
Much fun ensues when the Marines (currently suffering from a misguided<BR>
attempt to "rationalize" their rank structure) are sent in to enforce the<BR>
Imperial position.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 05:38:06 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In Broadsword it is state that the ruling council<BR>
> for the world is composed of military officiers from Vilis.<BR>
<BR>
Crap!  Now you tell me.  Flush 3 pages of Garda-Vilis<BR>
writeup.  Oh well, That can fit.<BR>
<BR>
> If Vilis government institutions rule<BR>
> it and it isn't a multisystem polity, what is the<BR>
> defination of the term?<BR>
<BR>
GV is a special case.  An Imperial military ruling<BR>
council comprised of officers from Vilis is still<BR>
an *Imperial* ruling council, albeit a presumably<BR>
pro-Vilis one.  That's how I read it.  And if/when<BR>
the legendary Tanoosian sniper Erriibaa gets a<BR>
clear shot, there could be big trouble, right here<BR>
in River City, with a capital T, that rhymes with . . .<BR>
uh . . .T  . . . and stands for Tanoose.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:09:19 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
>>>Coming late this year in December...<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>http://www.scifi.com/dune/<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> Well it certainly looks purty.<BR>
>> But then again so did the movie. (which was ok as long<BR>
>> as you weren't looking for a movie that had anything to do<BR>
>> with the book.)<BR>
<BR>
>For what it's worth, Frank Herbert was involved with making the movie<BR>
>and *liked* it.<BR>
<BR>
The film 'Dune' got a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Right:-<BR>
<BR>
Design:- The film sets and costumes were spot on.<BR>
<BR>
Cast:- The majority of the castings were perfect, in particular - Jurgen<BR>
Prochnow, Patrick Stewart, Brad Dourif, the guy who played Duncan Idaho<BR>
(whose name escapes me).<BR>
<BR>
Shields - Whilst some of the effects were a bit ropey, the shields stand out<BR>
not only as great special effects (which stand up well today), but also as a<BR>
great idea.<BR>
<BR>
Wrong:-<BR>
<BR>
Story:- Like the cartoon version of Lord of the Rings, the story<BR>
concentrates too much on the beginning of the movie and glosses over<BR>
important parts of the story. I believe there is a much longer director's<BR>
cut lost out there somewhere which follows the book more closely.<BR>
<BR>
Characterisation:- There is not enough characterisation of some of the<BR>
central characters. Stilgar and Duncan Idaho play a much more active role in<BR>
the books.<BR>
<BR>
Feyd Ruatha:- Whoever cast Sting in this role should never be allowed to<BR>
cast another movie again.<BR>
<BR>
Paul Atreides Age:- In the books I always pictured Paul as a boy just going<BR>
through puberty. The first book was about his journey into adulthood. So,<BR>
why was Paul played by an actor who was obviously much older than this? The<BR>
Mini Series version of the film also appears to have this flaw.<BR>
<BR>
Weirding Modules:- This was a dumb idea and meant that the film lost a lot<BR>
of the spiritual element that was evident in the books. The only reason that<BR>
I could see for them putting it into the film was to create a reason for<BR>
Shaddam IV to be fearful of the Atreides.<BR>
<BR>
Taking all of the above into consideration the film 'Dune' is still one of<BR>
my all time favourite sci-fi movies and the closest film to a 'Traveller'<BR>
universe in look and feel.<BR>
<BR>
The mini series looks good, but looks little more than an updated version of<BR>
the film (i.e. fancy CGI). Hopefully they will rectify the deficiencies in<BR>
the plot.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:27:14 -1000<BR>
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@mauigateway.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
 Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Are there any other canon pictures of specific Solomani ships aside from<BR>
>those that are in "Rats & Cats"?<BR>
<BR>
Alien Module #6 Solomani has several pictures.  It gives pictures and stats for<BR>
5 ships, and several other pictures of unnamed ships. Two of the pictures are of<BR>
the Marathon Fleet Courier and the Sundowner Free Trader which are also pictured<BR>
in Rats and Cats.<BR>
<BR>
Lewis Roberts<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
A:Cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
lewis@mauigateway.net  <BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:12:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I picked up a copy of Beowabbit at a charity auction at a con last<BR>
> year. It even has a copy of the first page of the original manuscript.<BR>
> Alas, many of the characters are non-ASCII, so you'll have to settle<BR>
> for the translation:<BR>
> <BR>
> WHAT?		WE QUARTERSTAFS?	WE BE NOT<BR>
> We be men 	of tribe Boxjutes<BR>
> who with Wealaf		wiped wide Wundorcwen<BR>
> tribe unmanly	and not nice,<BR>
> who with Facenstafas,	noble north tribe<BR>
> ganged up on Ganots	much great tribute<BR>
> from them took		oft at spearpoint.<BR>
> <BR>
> <and it goes on for *pages*><BR>
> <BR>
I have heard more than one recitation of the entire work by the<BR>
culprit^Wtranslator, Bruce Blackstone aka Atli, first Warlord<BR>
of Markland.<BR>
<BR>
Truly a hoot!<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:48:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Jun 00, at 20:02, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Also, I'd say to feel free to mix and match from different<BR>
> organizations; for example, as has been mentioned, the British<BR>
> (used to) use "subaltern" for (IIRC) Lieutenant.<BR>
<BR>
A subaltern comes from the British Empire's Indian army, and these days <BR>
means an officer of Captian or lower rank in the Army, but used to <BR>
means a 2nd Lt (IIRC).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:44:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Dune miniseries<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>For what it's worth, Frank Herbert was involved with making the movie<BR>
>and *liked* it.<BR>
<BR>
Bah!  He was peripherally involved.  Besides, what are you supposed to do<BR>
after people have sunk 70 M$ into making your masterwork into a film?  I<BR>
could just see him taking a look at an early cut and saying "Hmm, David<BR>
(Lynch that is) this is an unmitigated peice of sh*t, a complete<BR>
excressence, a total cock-up.  What WERE you thinking?  Sonic weapons? <BR>
Where did that come from?  Sardakaur in radiation suits?  Excuse me?" <BR>
Just wouldn't happen.  No, he smiled, gritted his teeth and said "It's<BR>
wonderful!" so that at least he wouldn't hurt ticket sales and deny<BR>
himself some royalties*.  Stephen King did the same thing with "The<BR>
Shining".  Apparently he hated it (he was WRONG, but that was his opinion) <BR>
but kept his mouth shut for financial reasons.  The recent TV miniseries<BR>
(which sucked, IMO) was his attempt to redeem the book.  What a laugh! <BR>
IMHO, the Dune movie was the worst film rendition of a peice of SF ever<BR>
(with the possible exception of Asimov's "Nightfall", but at least they<BR>
had a low budget partially to blame). <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I'm hoping the miniseries is better, but given the track record<BR>
of the people involved, I'm not overly hopeful.  (Gee, I'm grumpy this<BR>
morning :-)<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
*On the other hand, he may have liked it because, like many authors, he<BR>
doesn't seem to really "get" his own works.  Every time I see William<BR>
Gibson in an interview I feel like shaking him and saying "Do you actually<BR>
READ your own books? Or any cyberpunk for that matter?" <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:44:15 EDT<BR>
From: TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Seeking advice on old CT books<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
I am requesting opinions.<BR>
I have three different LBB original modules. I was reading in the BFB (Big Floppy Book) that I bought recently that the first ten of each of the LBB modules printed were signed by Marc Miller. The ones I have listed as such on the cover, and are signed by him, and I really didn't know if these were considered more valuable by collectors or not. I was thinking about selling them on eBay, and I was curious for an opinion first.<BR>
<BR>
In order to spare list bandwidth, feel free to email me directly.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance,<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:07:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
    I agree that most of the supporting actors in Dune was very well cast.<BR>
The name of the actor who played Duncan Idaho was Richard Jordan, who<BR>
unfortunately passed away in 1993 from a brain tumor.<BR>
<BR>
    The movie was very "object oriented" in that they focused on weapons and<BR>
the development of Paul Atreidies rather than what was happing in the<BR>
political arena...Ultimately it is Duncan Idaho who becomes the anchor for<BR>
the rest of the series.<BR>
<BR>
    The whole series is more of a commentary on society and human nature<BR>
than a work of fiction.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 3:09 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >>>Coming late this year in December...<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>>http://www.scifi.com/dune/<BR>
> >><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Well it certainly looks purty.<BR>
> >> But then again so did the movie. (which was ok as long<BR>
> >> as you weren't looking for a movie that had anything to do<BR>
> >> with the book.)<BR>
><BR>
> >For what it's worth, Frank Herbert was involved with making the movie<BR>
> >and *liked* it.<BR>
><BR>
> The film 'Dune' got a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong.<BR>
><BR>
> Right:-<BR>
><BR>
> Design:- The film sets and costumes were spot on.<BR>
><BR>
> Cast:- The majority of the castings were perfect, in particular - Jurgen<BR>
> Prochnow, Patrick Stewart, Brad Dourif, the guy who played Duncan Idaho<BR>
> (whose name escapes me).<BR>
><BR>
> Shields - Whilst some of the effects were a bit ropey, the shields stand<BR>
out<BR>
> not only as great special effects (which stand up well today), but also as<BR>
a<BR>
> great idea.<BR>
><BR>
> Wrong:-<BR>
><BR>
> Story:- Like the cartoon version of Lord of the Rings, the story<BR>
> concentrates too much on the beginning of the movie and glosses over<BR>
> important parts of the story. I believe there is a much longer director's<BR>
> cut lost out there somewhere which follows the book more closely.<BR>
><BR>
> Characterisation:- There is not enough characterisation of some of the<BR>
> central characters. Stilgar and Duncan Idaho play a much more active role<BR>
in<BR>
> the books.<BR>
><BR>
> Feyd Ruatha:- Whoever cast Sting in this role should never be allowed to<BR>
> cast another movie again.<BR>
><BR>
> Paul Atreides Age:- In the books I always pictured Paul as a boy just<BR>
going<BR>
> through puberty. The first book was about his journey into adulthood. So,<BR>
> why was Paul played by an actor who was obviously much older than this?<BR>
The<BR>
> Mini Series version of the film also appears to have this flaw.<BR>
><BR>
> Weirding Modules:- This was a dumb idea and meant that the film lost a lot<BR>
> of the spiritual element that was evident in the books. The only reason<BR>
that<BR>
> I could see for them putting it into the film was to create a reason for<BR>
> Shaddam IV to be fearful of the Atreides.<BR>
><BR>
> Taking all of the above into consideration the film 'Dune' is still one of<BR>
> my all time favourite sci-fi movies and the closest film to a 'Traveller'<BR>
> universe in look and feel.<BR>
><BR>
> The mini series looks good, but looks little more than an updated version<BR>
of<BR>
> the film (i.e. fancy CGI). Hopefully they will rectify the deficiencies in<BR>
> the plot.<BR>
><BR>
> Stuart Ferris<BR>
> stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
> http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:21:06 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Freefall<BR>
<BR>
Spoken like a true PC...<BR>
<BR>
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:22:55 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
The trick to G tolerance is keeping the blood in your head so you can<BR>
maintain useful consciousness.  The F-16 is a really good example of human<BR>
factors engineering to enhance G tolerance.  The seat is reclined 60 degrees<BR>
back so they are basically laying down, with a HUD and a G suit on.  The G<BR>
suit is 2 fold in helping you, it squeezes your legs to keep the blood<BR>
pressure up and it pushes against your stomach to "remind" you to strain<BR>
your muscles (my first flight in one was a memorable experience, I was in<BR>
agony, but by the second flight you get used to them and hardly notice, you<BR>
push back automatically).  High G would still be a problem if you can't move<BR>
so they designed it so you don't have to much much.  Your arms are in an<BR>
armrest with the Stick at the end of the arm rest and it is very sensitive<BR>
to the touch and many of the buttons are literally at their fingertips.<BR>
They regularly perform right up to 9 G flight, although not sustained for<BR>
great periods of time (My old college roommate flies them) and 5 Gs are<BR>
tolerable for long periods(probably not hours, they rarely even fly for<BR>
hours but I think it is physically possible to endure, just very tiring).  I<BR>
don't think 18 G's would be doable unless you had some way to thicken the<BR>
blood but then you risk heart attack.  Having a person operate above 9 G for<BR>
any length of time without some way to keep the blood in the head is not<BR>
really feasible.  Keep in mind that all this is positive G.  Most people<BR>
can't tolerate more than maybe 2 Gs negatively.  Not sure why this is<BR>
exactly, but the body and brain is hard-wired for positive Gs.  In this case<BR>
orientation of the G axis on a spaceship would be critical since they would<BR>
want to be able to move in several degrees of motion.   A G couch of some<BR>
sort that could swivel with the direction of G might be a good way to<BR>
overcome this, but you would need one for every crewmember or you would have<BR>
a Whole lot of incapacitated and possibly dead or brain dead at the least<BR>
crewmembers.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:19 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> 'Womb tanks' are the only way to go if we postulate any sort of decent<BR>
>> sustained acceleration (4+G's for a number of hours, 18+G's the 'muscle<BR>
>> control' limit, 80+G's for a second or so).*<BR>
><BR>
>And I'm still waiting for someone to design a fighter that *uses* that<BR>
>"hours at 4 g" limit. And has an 18g "emergency jink" capability if<BR>
>sensors detect a shot that's going to be too close. And maybe an 80 g<BR>
>"oh shit!" one-time burst capability (ejection seats use this limit<BR>
>currently).<BR>
><BR>
>I'd also expect that like we do now, think'll select for pilots with<BR>
>better than average g-tolerance. That might give you 5 or 6 gs.<BR>
><BR>
>And remember, these accelerations are *above and beyond* what the<BR>
>g-comps can handle.<BR>
><BR>
>A 10-g to 12 g fighter is a *far* different threat than a 6-g fighter.<BR>
>Especially if they "hold back" until they get into what *should be*<BR>
>"certain kill" range for your point defense systems.<BR>
><BR>
>> The pressurisation levels described in Haldeman's 'Forever War' are<BR>
>> impossible, as are the speed of the (de)compression cycles (30 minutes<BR>
>> to ~500 ATA and back ; Ch. 2 of the 'Sergeant Mandella' part of<BR>
>> the story).<BR>
><BR>
>I think the current "extreme limit" for any sort of "pressurized to<BR>
>ambient" diving is less that 2000 feet. That's less than 60 atm.<BR>
><BR>
>> Liquid ventilation (LV) has been possible for nearly 30 years. The<BR>
>> perflurocarbon liquids used can contain enough dissolved oxygen to meet<BR>
>> the needs of rats and mice. LV also been used experimentally in<BR>
>> Intensive Care to ventilate patients with adult respiratory distress<BR>
>> syndrome.<BR>
><BR>
>I thought I saw something about using it, with some sort of additive on<BR>
>patients with "slightly scorched" lungs? (forgiven the non-medical<BR>
>description!)<BR>
><BR>
>> You basically pour the stuff into someone's endotracheal tube until<BR>
>> you can see a fluid level.<BR>
><BR>
>Ugh!<BR>
><BR>
>> Work of breathing isn't increased very much because of the change in<BR>
>> elastic properties of the lung when it's full of fluid.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The problems are with removing carbon dioxide, circulating the fluid,<BR>
>> and the uncertain long-term effects on lung function with chronic use.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The transition from liquid to air breathing can be prolonged and messy.<BR>
><BR>
>Gasping, choking, coughing up fluid... yeah, I'd consider that messy.<BR>
>And having had *prolonged* coughing fits from far more minor<BR>
>irritations when I was a child, I don't even want to *think* about this<BR>
>too hard. (I coughed so bad I was having trouble finding time to<BR>
>*inhale* between spasms)<BR>
><BR>
>> I think gravitics makes things a lot easier, and agree with Walt Smith.<BR>
>> However, I think that there should be overdrive inertial compensation<BR>
>> e.g. for crash protection. Protect the occupants of a vehicle from<BR>
>> the deceleration of a collision, slag the compensators.<BR>
><BR>
>Good thought. A *lot* of stuff could use info on what the limits are in<BR>
>"I don't *care* if it burns out in 10 seconds!" situations are.<BR>
><BR>
>> * based on an article that appeared in Analog in Feb/March 1998,<BR>
>> quoted by Leonard Erickson on 5 March 1998 in TravTech digest #107.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2542<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:52:21 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:51:57 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA20198;<BR>
	Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:50:40 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:50:25 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA20154<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006021350.JAA20154@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2542<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2543</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/2/00 3:55:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 2 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2543<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
RE: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
Re: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Cultural Icon Now with a New & Improved ObTrav<BR>
Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
Gearhead ring<BR>
Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
Re: Rank Titles<BR>
Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Re: Rank Titles<BR>
Re: Rank Titles<BR>
Panamax<BR>
Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
Minor Human Races<BR>
Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Rank Titles<BR>
Authors on their own works<BR>
Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
Re: Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
Re: Authors on their own works<BR>
Re: Minor Human Races<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:03:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
On 2 Jun 00, at 13:48, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> On 1 Jun 00, at 20:02, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Also, I'd say to feel free to mix and match from different<BR>
> > organizations; for example, as has been mentioned, the British<BR>
> > (used to) use "subaltern" for (IIRC) Lieutenant.<BR>
<BR>
> A subaltern comes from the British Empire's Indian army, and these days <BR>
> means an officer of Captian or lower rank in the Army, but used to <BR>
> means a 2nd Lt (IIRC).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, its officially an officer cadet. The cadets at Sandhurst and <BR>
Woolwich are Subalterns, though common usage seems to extend it to the <BR>
first few years of an officers commission.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:14:05 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
As neither my room mate or I have that one, I've got someone scanning the<BR>
relevant ship stuff for me.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have the other Journal, TD, or Challenge references.  My collection<BR>
if woefully lacking in several areas, periodicals being the largest gap :(<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Lewis<BR>
> Roberts<BR>
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 3:27 AM<BR>
> To: Traveller Mailing List<BR>
> Subject: RE: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>  Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Are there any other canon pictures of specific Solomani ships aside from<BR>
> >those that are in "Rats & Cats"?<BR>
><BR>
> Alien Module #6 Solomani has several pictures.  It gives pictures<BR>
> and stats for<BR>
> 5 ships, and several other pictures of unnamed ships. Two of the<BR>
> pictures are of<BR>
> the Marathon Fleet Courier and the Sundowner Free Trader which<BR>
> are also pictured<BR>
> in Rats and Cats.<BR>
><BR>
> Lewis Roberts<BR>
> -------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Q:What do prisoners use to call each other?<BR>
> A:Cell phones.<BR>
><BR>
> lewis@mauigateway.net<BR>
> -------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:45:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
At 01:10 AM 6/2/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In GF, Marshal is the commander of a subsector army, as well as a seldom<BR>
>> seen Marine rank.<BR>
><BR>
>You changed it from the playtest material?<BR>
<BR>
Slightly.  Marshal was always the title of the commander of the subsector<BR>
army, and Marshal of Marines was scaled back a little.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:51:35<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
At 12:56 AM 6/2/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What's the deal with a Baton?  For leading the parade?<BR>
<BR>
The Marshal's Baton is a symbol of rank, a left over from the days when the<BR>
leaders would have huge banners denoting their position.<BR>
<BR>
The German army in WWII used a slim wand.  At Stalingrad, Hitler had<BR>
General Paulus promoted to Field Marshal and flew the wand in, to remind<BR>
him that no German Field Marshal had ever sureendered his command.  Paulus<BR>
promptly surrendered the 6th Army to the Soviets.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:54:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Military Ranks Revised<BR>
<BR>
At 04:48 AM 6/2/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And don't forget the Skymarshal who has to command both a regiment of mobile<BR>
>infantry and a capital ship before he/she can achieve this exalted rank.<BR>
<BR>
No offense to the Grandmaster, but that was the *dumbest* idea he ever had.<BR>
 Commanding ground forces and warships are two entirely different career<BR>
paths, and getting to the point of commanding a regiment or captial ship<BR>
are both career long goals.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Penguin Boy,  Righter of wrongs, hero to millions, &<BR>
friend to Flash Gordon."   - Legate Legion on the TML<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:58:43 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Solomani ship info / pics request<BR>
<BR>
I don't have a scanner, so I can't help, sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> As neither my room mate or I have that one, I've got someone scanning the<BR>
> relevant ship stuff for me.<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't have the other Journal, TD, or Challenge references.  My collection<BR>
> if woefully lacking in several areas, periodicals being the largest gap :(<BR>
> <BR>
> Jesse<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:07:20 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > 'Womb tanks' are the only way to go if we postulate any sort of decent<BR>
> > sustained acceleration (4+G's for a number of hours, 18+G's the 'muscle<BR>
> > control' limit, 80+G's for a second or so).*<BR>
> <BR>
> And I'm still waiting for someone to design a fighter that *uses* that<BR>
> "hours at 4 g" limit. And has an 18g "emergency jink" capability if<BR>
> sensors detect a shot that's going to be too close. And maybe an 80 g<BR>
> "oh shit!" one-time burst capability (ejection seats use this limit<BR>
> currently).<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.  Sounds like a challenge....<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure whether I'll be able to manage the 80-g burst, but I'll try<BR>
to work in the 18-g jink.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:25:13 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural Icon Now with a New & Improved ObTrav<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne wrote:<BR>
> Or closer to my original point. A world attempts to ban the long form <BR>
> Tri-D Infoholos used to advertise these products on the basis that it <BR>
> cuts into the air time needed for the transmission of local epic <BR>
> historical fiction operetas. Imperial bureaucrats (perhaps in the pay <BR>
> of RayCo) feel this is an ilegal infringement upon commerce. <BR>
> Much fun ensues when the Marines (currently suffering from a misguided <BR>
>attempt to "rationalize" their rank structure) are sent in to enforce <BR>
> the Imperial position. <BR>
<BR>
And with only minor changes in sets and slang, the entertainment<BR>
company filming the above comedy series ("The Infomercialaries"?)<BR>
could probably sell it in hundreds of planetary markets Imperium-wide.<BR>
<BR>
How many American TV-shows are remakes of British ones?  Who Wants to<BR>
Be a Millionaire, the latest Bill Cosby vehicle (remade from One Foot in <BR>
the Grave, I hear)...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:29:28 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Michael Houghton wrote:<BR>
>>Leonard wrote: <BR>
>><BR>
>> I picked up a copy of Beowabbit at a charity auction at a con last <BR>
>> year. It even has a copy of the first page of the original manuscript. <BR>
>> Alas, many of the characters are non-ASCII, so you'll have to settle <BR>
>> for the translation: <BR>
>> <BR>
>> WHAT?         WE QUARTERSTAFS?        WE BE NOT <BR>
>> We be men     of tribe Boxjutes <BR>
>> who with Wealaf               wiped wide Wundorcwen <BR>
>> tribe unmanly and not nice, <BR>
>> who with Facenstafas, noble north tribe <BR>
>> ganged up on Ganots   much great tribute <BR>
>> from them took                oft at spearpoint. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> <and it goes on for *pages*> <BR>
>> <BR>
>I have heard more than one recitation of the entire work by the <BR>
>culprit^Wtranslator, Bruce Blackstone aka Atli, first Warlord <BR>
>of Markland. <BR>
><BR>
>Truly a hoot! <BR>
<BR>
The title (Beowabbit) made me read the above to the voice of<BR>
Elmer Fudd.<BR>
<BR>
"twibe unmawy, and not nice,<BR>
fwom them took, oft at speawpoint..."<BR>
<BR>
"...kill the wabbit, Kill the Wabbit, KILL the WABBIT..."<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:35:10 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> puts on the Ether:<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 6/1/00 6:12 PM, urbin@bigfoot.com issued forth:<BR>
> > The Traveller Gearhead webring is up to 36 members.<BR>
>I saw a link to a page by "Moosepuppy", but it seems the link is dead. I was<BR>
>/so/ looking forward to seeing what kind of ships a "Moosepuppy" would<BR>
>build<BR>
<BR>
Just where did you see this link?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Did you read what I read?  Write it right here in red.<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:44:13 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:12:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
> From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
> Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
...<BR>
> I have heard more than one recitation of the entire work by the<BR>
> culprit^Wtranslator, Bruce Blackstone aka Atli, first Warlord<BR>
> of Markland.<BR>
<BR>
Of all the weird topics I've seen mentioned on the TML, I never expected<BR>
to read the name "Markland". Now I'll have to migrate to another list to<BR>
avoid capture...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Jon Zeigler has introduced an "Authenticist" movement in the GT <BR>
Solomani Rim sourcebook. Maybe all those TL4- worlds are inhabited by the<BR>
rabid Recreationist fringe of the Authenticists. [Jon lives on Markland's<BR>
home turf -- perhaps this is no coincidence.]<BR>
<BR>
Hraefn Dhrysca<BR>
formerly Chief Wench of the Maryland Mediaeval Mercenary Militia<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: 2 Jun 2000 16:28:18 -0000<BR>
From: "Scott Sprague" <scott.sprague@russia.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Dear Sirs-<BR>
<BR>
This is my first post to this list, so please don't laugh TOO hard.  <BR>
<BR>
Regarding rank titles, has anyone considered combining a bit of Earth and Vilani history and culture?  This might sound silly, but bear with me.<BR>
<BR>
In the late Medieval era the Turks fielded troops named Janissaries.  Their rank structure was based on their communal/barracks life; specifically, their food.  Each soldier's most important posession was his mess kit.  Leaders were "Cooks," higher officers were "Chefs," soldiers were "Diners."  A squad was a "table," a company a "mess hall."  To an extent these titles were strictly honorific, but what rank titles aren't?<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps this can be combined with the Vilani social construct of status for cooks who can prepare food made from the relatively unedible ingredients available to them on their homeworld.  I am not proposing this rank structure for all Vilani soldiers, but it might be an interesting bit of chrome when applied to a group of soldiers whose function is largely formalized.  Perhaps a Duke's honor guard? <BR>
<BR>
Okay, stop laughing...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:45:36 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Many Zen Buddhist monks wear dark gray, which seems quite<BR>
> appropriate to covert/special ops.  Remember that many<BR>
> samurai were Zen Buddhists, too, so this subject isn't<BR>
> quite as quirky as it seems.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, too, that in feudal Japan, 'Zen Monastery' was often merely<BR>
cover for 'building a big army', and even today there are 'Buddhists'<BR>
who don't quite fit the typical 'peaceful, contemplative' stereotype,<BR>
witness that bunch over in South Korea a year or so ago who were<BR>
fighting with each other using molotov cocktails.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:37:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
At 04:28 PM 6/2/2000 -0000, you wrote:<BR>
>Dear Sirs-<BR>
><BR>
>This is my first post to this list, so please don't laugh TOO hard.  <BR>
<BR>
welcome, and I'll restrict myself to mild giggles.<BR>
><BR>
>Regarding rank titles, has anyone considered combining a bit of Earth and<BR>
Vilani history and culture?  This might sound silly, but bear with me.<BR>
<BR>
This was something I looked at for Ground Forces.. several things stopped<BR>
me.  First of all, the Third Imperium has an intense Solomani background.<BR>
Canonically, the Solomani dominated for the first six centuries of the 3I's<BR>
history.  The ranks were based on the old Rule of Man ranks that had been<BR>
passed down through the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, Vilani is hard to pronounce!  From a gaming standpoint, mixing<BR>
Vilani and Galangic ranks would be confusing.  Also, previous editions of<BR>
the rules have shown that the ranks are the familiar US-based Private,<BR>
Captain, etc., and making those changes would really go to far.<BR>
<BR>
There have been changes in the Marine ranks, and there are several Vilani<BR>
references in vehicle names and flavor text.  One of the sample characters<BR>
is a tanker (based on my wife. BTW) who swears in Old High Vilani.  The<BR>
spell checker just *loved* her quotes...<BR>
<BR>
>In the late Medieval era the Turks fielded troops named Janissaries.<BR>
Their rank structure was based on their communal/barracks life;<BR>
specifically, their food.  Each soldier's most important possession was his<BR>
mess kit.  Leaders were "Cooks," higher officers were "Chefs," soldiers<BR>
were "Diners."  A squad was a "table," a company a "mess hall."  To an<BR>
extent these titles were strictly honorific, but what rank titles aren't?<BR>
<BR>
In a military structure, rank is often tied with absolute responsibility<BR>
and privilege.  A good example is the division between Corporal and<BR>
Specialist in the US Army.  Both ranks are E-4, but the Corporal is a NCO,<BR>
able to legally give orders and deserving of all the respect due a NCO.<BR>
The Specialist is a "super-Private," still just an enlisted soldier.<BR>
<BR>
You'll find any number of odd rank structures in both reality and fiction.<BR>
One of my favorite gaming sources is the House books for FASA's Battletech<BR>
series.  If you look at the uniform I was wearing at the BayCon party, the<BR>
rank on my collars are Japanese WWII Senior Private tabs.  <BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps this can be combined with the Vilani social construct of status<BR>
for cooks who can prepare food made from the relatively unedible<BR>
ingredients available to them on their homeworld.  I am not proposing this<BR>
rank structure for all Vilani soldiers, but it might be an interesting bit<BR>
of chrome when applied to a group of soldiers whose function is largely<BR>
formalized.  Perhaps a Duke's honor guard? <BR>
<BR>
My chef roommate has pointed out that the term 8is related to "chief," as<BR>
in Chief Petty Officer.<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, stop laughing...<BR>
<BR>
Can I keep singing along to "Bohemian Rhapsody"?<BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:45:24 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Scott Sprague wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Dear Sirs-<BR>
><BR>
> This is my first post to this list, so please don't laugh TOO hard.<BR>
><BR>
> Regarding rank titles, has anyone considered combining a bit of Earth and Vilani history and culture?  This might sound silly, but bear with me.<BR>
><BR>
> In the late Medieval era the Turks fielded troops named Janissaries.  Their rank structure was based on their communal/barracks life; specifically, their food.  Each soldier's most important posession was his mess kit.  Leaders were "Cooks," higher officers were "Chefs," soldiers were "Diners."  A squad was a "table," a company a "mess hall."  To an extent these titles were strictly honorific, but what rank titles aren't?<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  Given the Vilani penchant for cannibalism, shouldn't<BR>
the soldiers be "Dinners"?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Translated Vilani Military Communications Intercept<BR>
from the Interstellar Wars:<BR>
"We're going to need another messhall, tell the Cook.<BR>
We've having company for dinner."<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:56:23 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Panamax<BR>
<BR>
Hy folks,<BR>
<BR>
  does anybody know the exact 'Panamax' size :<BR>
<BR>
  So far I have found on the web :<BR>
<BR>
    305m length, 33.5m wide, 19m depth.<BR>
<BR>
  Could anybody confirm those values.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
    Many Solomani ships still have Panamax size, as Panamax is the<BR>
    most common size for repair docks in shipyards and starports.<BR>
<BR>
    So displacement maximum for unstreamlined box shaped bulk carriers<BR>
    is 13.000 tons, while most Panamax are of wedge configuration around<BR>
    10.000 tons.<BR>
 <BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:08:49 EDT<BR>
From: LB2NOLA@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
I know I saw it on the Traveller Web-ring.....the problem I had was, I got to <BR>
the main page, and there were no others.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:30:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Minor Human Races<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know how widely distributed the Minor Human Races are?<BR>
I'm in the process of developing a sector out on the Rimward edge of <BR>
Charted Space (beyond the Solomani Confederation), and was wondering<BR>
whether or not to plant a couple of Minor Human Races out there.<BR>
<BR>
                                                        - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:46:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/2/00 8:35 AM, urbin@bigfoot.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Just where did you see this link?<BR>
<BR>
On the index of Gearhead Webring sites. I /know/ I have never been to a<BR>
Traveller page by a "Moosepuppy", that is a name I am sure I would remember.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 19:50:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Original message From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
>><BR>
>>  "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off<BR>
the<BR>
>>   shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the<BR>
Tannhauser<BR>
>>   gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time<BR>
to<BR>
>>   die."<BR>
<BR>
>Is this from the movie, "Blade Runner" ? -- An outstanding movie.<BR>
<BR>
All except the first line "And life is harsh and rarely fair." which is from<BR>
my IMTU code.  On of the all time best Sci-Fi movies and in my top 20 films<BR>
of all time (both versions).  I didn't credit the quote as I figured<BR>
everyone on the list would recognise it.  Possibly not now that I am getting<BR>
older (see the mix-ups with Shaft).<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:52:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/2/00 9:28 AM, scott.sprague@russia.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Okay, stop laughing...<BR>
<BR>
Well, it /is/ funny, but curiously it sounds like a reasonable model for<BR>
Vilani to me, at least early in their history. It makes me wonder though,<BR>
did the Vilani have internal conflicts in their society strong enough to<BR>
result in war previous to becoming an intersteller community?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:47:29 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Authors on their own works<BR>
<BR>
>*On the other hand, he may have liked it because, like many authors, he<BR>
>doesn't seem to really "get" his own works.  Every time I see William<BR>
>Gibson in an interview I feel like shaking him and saying "Do you actually<BR>
>READ your own books? Or any cyberpunk for that matter?"<BR>
<BR>
Remember that Gibson wrote Neuromancer on a typewriter.  He was a complete <BR>
Computer Cherry.<BR>
He wrote Count Zero on an Apple IIc someone setup for him.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Did you read what I read?  Write it right here in red.<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:58:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/2/00 11:08 AM, LB2NOLA@aol.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I know I saw it on the Traveller Web-ring.....the problem I had was, I got to<BR>
> the main page, and there were no others.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like a "Work-In-Progress". I got "File not found.", so stuff is<BR>
probably being moved around or something. Did the page you got to have an<BR>
e-mail link? Somebody should invite Moosepuppy to the list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:23:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
Confirmed...I saw Moosepuppy's page, but have not visited it since I last<BR>
surfed the Ring...about 4 months ago...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 11:58 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/2/00 11:08 AM, LB2NOLA@aol.com issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > I know I saw it on the Traveller Web-ring.....the problem I had was, I<BR>
got to<BR>
> > the main page, and there were no others.<BR>
><BR>
> Sounds like a "Work-In-Progress". I got "File not found.", so stuff is<BR>
> probably being moved around or something. Did the page you got to have an<BR>
> e-mail link? Somebody should invite Moosepuppy to the list.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:19:42 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Christopher Thrash wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:12:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
> > From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
> > Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
> ...<BR>
> > I have heard more than one recitation of the entire work by the<BR>
> > culprit^Wtranslator, Bruce Blackstone aka Atli, first Warlord<BR>
> > of Markland.<BR>
> <BR>
> Of all the weird topics I've seen mentioned on the TML, I never expected<BR>
> to read the name "Markland". Now I'll have to migrate to another list to<BR>
> avoid capture...<BR>
> <BR>
Oh, the memories!<BR>
<BR>
Elvanna Kantelasse of Kalenith, aka Kiri Morgan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:38:24 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Authors on their own works<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> >*On the other hand, he may have liked it because, like many authors, he<BR>
> >doesn't seem to really "get" his own works.  Every time I see William<BR>
> >Gibson in an interview I feel like shaking him and saying "Do you actually<BR>
> >READ your own books? Or any cyberpunk for that matter?"<BR>
> <BR>
> Remember that Gibson wrote Neuromancer on a typewriter.  He was a complete <BR>
> Computer Cherry.<BR>
> He wrote Count Zero on an Apple IIc someone setup for him.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Though I enjoy Gibson's writings (I own all his major works)  I think <BR>
Cyper Punk is more then just the technology, but Gibson;s own <BR>
vision of what an 80's writer in the North West Pacific would see <BR>
the society.  He like many people believed that Asian (Japanese) <BR>
culture would dominate the world as the New Dragons economies <BR>
where.  <BR>
<BR>
However as history has shown this is not the case, at least not <BR>
yet.  When we talk about Gibson being out of touch with his own <BR>
works I think we should say that he is out of touch with the <BR>
present.  This is a major hazard of a futurist.<BR>
<BR>
Again I enjoy his work, I just think he got it wrong.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:46:22 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Minor Human Races<BR>
<BR>
At 02:30 PM 6/2/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Does anyone know how widely distributed the Minor Human Races are?<BR>
>I'm in the process of developing a sector out on the Rimward edge of<BR>
>Charted Space (beyond the Solomani Confederation), and was wondering<BR>
>whether or not to plant a couple of Minor Human Races out there.<BR>
><BR>
>                                                         - J. Raynor<BR>
I believe that somewhere in "canon" it is stated that there are 41 human <BR>
races out there (I can't remember if this does or does not include the <BR>
major races, but I believe this is the count of minor races).  I did a <BR>
count at one time and came up with about 35 minor human races, including <BR>
the "lost" Dynchia, and the Azhanti High Lightning mentioned races.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2543<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 18:55:14 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 18:54:44 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA41804;<BR>
	Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:53:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:53:10 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA41761<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:53:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:53:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006022253.SAA41761@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2543<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2544</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/2/00 9:50:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2544<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
Re: Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
Races in Traveller<BR>
Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
Re: Rank Titles<BR>
Re: mil ranks again<BR>
Re : acceleration tolerances (was : Shipboard Gravitics)<BR>
Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
Vilani for Dinner (was Rank Titles)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:05:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The trick to G tolerance is keeping the blood in your head so you can<BR>
> maintain useful consciousness.  The F-16 is a really good example of human<BR>
> factors engineering to enhance G tolerance.  The seat is reclined 60 degrees<BR>
> back so they are basically laying down, with a HUD and a G suit on.  The G<BR>
> suit is 2 fold in helping you, it squeezes your legs to keep the blood<BR>
> pressure up and it pushes against your stomach to "remind" you to strain<BR>
> your muscles (my first flight in one was a memorable experience, I was in<BR>
> agony, but by the second flight you get used to them and hardly notice, you<BR>
> push back automatically).  High G would still be a problem if you can't move<BR>
> so they designed it so you don't have to much much.  Your arms are in an<BR>
> armrest with the Stick at the end of the arm rest and it is very sensitive<BR>
> to the touch and many of the buttons are literally at their fingertips.<BR>
> They regularly perform right up to 9 G flight, although not sustained for<BR>
> great periods of time (My old college roommate flies them) and 5 Gs are<BR>
> tolerable for long periods(probably not hours, they rarely even fly for<BR>
> hours but I think it is physically possible to endure, just very tiring).  I<BR>
> don't think 18 G's would be doable unless you had some way to thicken the<BR>
> blood but then you risk heart attack.  Having a person operate above 9 G for<BR>
> any length of time without some way to keep the blood in the head is not<BR>
> really feasible.  Keep in mind that all this is positive G.  Most people<BR>
> can't tolerate more than maybe 2 Gs negatively.  Not sure why this is<BR>
> exactly, but the body and brain is hard-wired for positive Gs.  In this case<BR>
> orientation of the G axis on a spaceship would be critical since they would<BR>
> want to be able to move in several degrees of motion. <BR>
<BR>
Ok, you are suffering from a common misconception. In a *atmospheric*<BR>
fighter, the g-load is at right angles to the flight path. That's<BR>
because the G load is due to using aerodynamic forces to turn. <BR>
<BR>
In a *space* fighter all g loads are in the direction the engine is<BR>
pointing. That's because the main drive is the only thing that'll<BR>
change your course noticiably. Steering thrusters merely change the<BR>
*orientation* of the ship with respect to the direction of travel. <BR>
<BR>
When you turn, the forces are pointing radially outward (ie down is<BR>
"out" from the center of the curve), just like in a jet.  But *unlike*<BR>
a jet, to *make* that turn, your main drive has to be pointed in the<BR>
*same* direction (ie the nose of the fighter points towards the center<BR>
of the turn).<BR>
<BR>
This means that all g-loads in a space fighter are taken with the pilot<BR>
lying *flat on his back*. This is what makes the g-load limits so<BR>
different. They are *tranverse* gees. That is, from the front of the<BR>
body to the back. <BR>
<BR>
And for *that* direction, the loads are as given. Your head is at the<BR>
same level as the rest of your body, and your heart only has to pump<BR>
blood over a "height" difference of less than a foot. <BR>
<BR>
> A G couch of some<BR>
> sort that could swivel with the direction of G might be a good way to<BR>
> overcome this, but you would need one for every crewmember or you would have<BR>
> a Whole lot of incapacitated and possibly dead or brain dead at the least<BR>
> crewmembers.<BR>
<BR>
Fighters are the only ships likely to use huge accelerations. Normal<BR>
ships don't benefit enough from them to jusitify the power and fuel<BR>
requirements except in emergencies.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is laid out with decks at right angles to the thrust axis,<BR>
then passengers just get into their beds, which double as acceleration<BR>
couches. The crew positions will fold back to become couches and have<BR>
critical controls where they can be reached under acceleration. And<BR>
modern display technology allows displays to be "in front of" people<BR>
without the need to have anything physically above them, where it might<BR>
break loose. <BR>
<BR>
If a ship is laid out with decks *parallel* to the thrust axis, then<BR>
you need to make sure there are couches mounted against the bulkheads<BR>
that will be "down" under acceleration, and that there's nothing on the<BR>
opposite bulkhead that could "fall" and injure anyone. <BR>
<BR>
Any "chairs" on the control deck that *aren't* really close the the<BR>
appropriate bulkhead will be impossible to reach under "afterburner",<BR>
and had best be *well* anchored to the deck.<BR>
<BR>
One nice thing about the front of the ship being "up" combined with<BR>
"lying down" pilot positions is that visibility will be *excellent*. <BR>
<BR>
ps. rather than the long, thin designs we see in Star Wars and<BR>
Battlestar Galactica, a proper space fighter will be as *compact* as<BR>
possible, because you want to reduce the moment of inertia, so it can<BR>
spin about any axis quickly. Spherical, with steering thrusters on<BR>
outriggers to increase the torque they can exert, is a near optimum<BR>
design. <BR>
<BR>
Gee, just like the fighters Babylon 5 carried!<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, while they didn't make a big deal of it, the way the *earth*<BR>
fighters manuevered is proper Newtonian physics, *and* fairly good<BR>
examples of how to use such a fighter, except for the ridicilously<BR>
slow speeds, and being able to *see* the ships you were shooting at.<BR>
<BR>
The manuevers were good, the ranges and speeds were way too small.<BR>
<BR>
But I wanted to shout "Yes!" when I saw one of those figthers<BR>
accelerate towards a target, firing all the while, and pivot about the<BR>
yaw axis, while still firing at it AND STILL MOVING IN THE ORIGINAL<BR>
DIRECTION and then, while *still firing (until out of range) fire the<BR>
main engines to *decelerate* and accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
<BR>
So what if the scale was wrong? they were manuevering like real<BR>
spacecraft! At last a producer had tried to get it *right*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:33:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> 'Womb tanks' are the only way to go if we postulate any sort of decent<BR>
>>> sustained acceleration (4+G's for a number of hours, 18+G's the 'muscle<BR>
>>> control' limit, 80+G's for a second or so).*<BR>
>> <BR>
>> And I'm still waiting for someone to design a fighter that *uses* that<BR>
>> "hours at 4 g" limit. And has an 18g "emergency jink" capability if<BR>
>> sensors detect a shot that's going to be too close. And maybe an 80 g<BR>
>> "oh shit!" one-time burst capability (ejection seats use this limit<BR>
>> currently).<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm.  Sounds like a challenge....<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not sure whether I'll be able to manage the 80-g burst, but I'll try<BR>
> to work in the 18-g jink.<BR>
<BR>
The 80-g burst should be a "dump emergency overload into the engine"<BR>
bit. And likely leave the drive as so much *junk*. Useful to dodge that<BR>
missile at the last second, and then leave you drifting. <BR>
<BR>
Anybody seeing that on sensors won't waste any shots on you because you<BR>
aren't a threat anymore. At least as long as you aren't drifting<BR>
towards them, or pointing at them (after all, your weapons might still<BR>
work).<BR>
<BR>
Like I said, the rules don't really allow for that sort of "burn it<BR>
out" situation.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:40:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Military Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Rationalization of titles is well and good, but don't forget one<BR>
>> thing:  "Captain"  has a dual meaning in the Navy;.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course.<BR>
><BR>
>> My gut says to retain the ship's master connotation of "Captain",<BR>
>> and drop it as a rank.<BR>
><BR>
> Thought about that but I don't want to create new ranks<BR>
> that I don't have to.  And since every service has a Captain<BR>
> rank title, it would be a very big deal to change it.<BR>
<BR>
Here's a thought, have a new title for the "ship's master". <BR>
<BR>
A few suggestions:<BR>
<BR>
Master	(hey, it fits inm with all that noble stuff)<BR>
Skipper	(or some corruption of it, it wouldn't be the first time that<BR>
         an "informal" title evolved into a formal one!)<BR>
<BR>
Or pick the equivalent words from some other language.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:44:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:56 AM 6/2/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>What's the deal with a Baton?  For leading the parade?<BR>
><BR>
> The Marshal's Baton is a symbol of rank, a left over from the days when the<BR>
> leaders would have huge banners denoting their position.<BR>
<BR>
I wonder if it's related to the "baton" (rather more ornate) that the<BR>
Romans used to give to victorious commanders. I *know* I know more<BR>
details than this, I just can't get them to surface!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:49:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Paul Atreides Age:- In the books I always pictured Paul as a boy just going<BR>
> through puberty. The first book was about his journey into adulthood. So,<BR>
> why was Paul played by an actor who was obviously much older than this? The<BR>
> Mini Series version of the film also appears to have this flaw.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, if you dig into the book a bit, I'm pretty sure you'll find<BR>
that you are *correct* about Paul's age. I'd say 12 or 13.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:01:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:12:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
>> From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
>> Subject: Re: How did the Beowulf get its name, anyway?<BR>
> ...<BR>
>> I have heard more than one recitation of the entire work by the<BR>
>> culprit^Wtranslator, Bruce Blackstone aka Atli, first Warlord<BR>
>> of Markland.<BR>
><BR>
> Of all the weird topics I've seen mentioned on the TML, I never expected<BR>
> to read the name "Markland". Now I'll have to migrate to another list to<BR>
> avoid capture...<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Jon Zeigler has introduced an "Authenticist" movement in the GT <BR>
> Solomani Rim sourcebook. Maybe all those TL4- worlds are inhabited by the<BR>
> rabid Recreationist fringe of the Authenticists. [Jon lives on Markland's<BR>
> home turf -- perhaps this is no coincidence.]<BR>
<BR>
Well, there are *lots* of other "historical re-creation" groups for<BR>
various periods. Some local SCA folks are also members of a group that<BR>
does Roman Legion stuff. <BR>
<BR>
And for that matter, a few of us who've read Jean Auel's stuff for the<BR>
*background* rather than the *plot*, think that a "neolithic<BR>
re-anactment" group could be fun...<BR>
<BR>
> Hraefn Dhrysca<BR>
> formerly Chief Wench of the Maryland Mediaeval Mercenary Militia<BR>
<BR>
How does a "Cristopher" get to be "Chief Wench"? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:03:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I was trying to think of the inspiration for the various major races in Traveller.  Do these make <BR>
sense ?   Are there better analogs ?<BR>
<BR>
Aslan       -  Kzinti from Larry Niven's Known Space series                    <BR>
Droyne     -  the typical inhabitants of the flying saucers (Roswell, etc)<BR>
Hiver        -  The "Bugs" from Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers<BR>
K'Kree      -  ???<BR>
Solomani -  Orwell's book, "1984"; the movie/book, "Fahrenheit 451";  other totalitarian <BR>
                  goverments (Hitler's Third Reich, the cold war USSR, etc.)<BR>
Vargre     - Dogs in Space ??  Reminds me somewhat of the Muppets, "Pigs in Space".<BR>
Vilani      -  The Roman Empire (or British Empire)<BR>
Zhodani   -   ???<BR>
<BR>
Are there any races (major/minor) that are basically there for comedic value ?<BR>
<BR>
Since we have cats & dogs, bugs & horses, and humans, what about fish & birds and even <BR>
dinosaurs (reptiles) ?  Would a civilization of fish, birds, or dinosaurs be possible ?<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:16:48 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
Continuing the fine tradition of the Imperium's most innovative company,<BR>
Famile Spofulam yesterday revealed their latest model. Defined as a<BR>
"forklift" for legal and tariff reasons, it is capable of a top speed of 404<BR>
km per hour, accelerates to 100 kmh in 10.4 seconds and does a quarter mile<BR>
from a dead stop start in 17.3 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
And it's streamlined, wedge-shaped hull is proof against most small arms<BR>
from X-tek.<BR>
<BR>
Priced at only KCr150, it is manufactured to TL8 standards and fits into a<BR>
standard 2 dton vehicle transport unit.<BR>
<BR>
200 liters of space is left for an optional stereo system, computer, fire<BR>
extinguisher or light anti-armour weapon.<BR>
<BR>
***********************************************************<BR>
<BR>
1 dton fast subsonic streamlined wedge (0.28 m3 ; 7.54m long, 5.17m wide,<BR>
2.15m high ; stressed to 9 gees; 0.008t, KCr 1)<BR>
<BR>
0.5 cm Comp Lam hull (0.22 m3, 1.7t, KCr 1 ; AF 4)<BR>
<BR>
3 MW Advanced IC unit (3.9 m3, 3.9t, KCr 50.7)<BR>
<BR>
1800 liters HCD fuel (1.8m3, 1.62t ; sufficient for 3 hours)<BR>
<BR>
2.9 MW wheeled suspension (2.9 m3, 2.9t, KCr 75 ; 14.5 m2 area)<BR>
<BR>
Advanced electronic crewstation/adequate seat (3.5 m3, 0.22t, KCr 0.85)<BR>
<BR>
Image enhancement viewer+Light Intensifier scope (KCr 4)<BR>
<BR>
500 kg lifting gear (0.5 m3, 0.5t, KCr 2.5 ; lifts 4 tons)<BR>
<BR>
Total mass 10.85 tons<BR>
<BR>
Acceleration is 0.267 gees (2.67 ms^-2). Top speed 404 kmh^-1<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:21:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
on 6/2/00 4:03 PM, Robert Snyder at robert_snyder@prontomail.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Are there any races (major/minor) that are basically there for comedic value ?<BR>
> <BR>
> Since we have cats & dogs, bugs & horses, and humans, what about fish & birds<BR>
> and even <BR>
> dinosaurs (reptiles) ?  Would a civilization of fish, birds, or dinosaurs be<BR>
> possible ?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
See http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
I've posted a few 'House' races.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:19:15 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> puts on the ether:<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 6/2/00 8:35 AM, urbin@bigfoot.com issued forth:<BR>
> > Just where did you see this link?<BR>
>On the index of Gearhead Webring sites. I /know/ I have never been to a<BR>
>Traveller page by a "Moosepuppy", that is a name I am sure I would remember.<BR>
<BR>
I just scanned the webring produced list pages for all 36 sites.  No <BR>
"Moosepuppy."<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure I would have remembered that when I admitted the site.<BR>
<BR>
No mention of 'moosepuppy' on the ring homepage either.  Perhaps on one of <BR>
the site pages.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend<BR>
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,<BR>
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY<BR>
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.<BR>
               http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 18:26:41<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
At 03:44 PM 6/2/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> The Marshal's Baton is a symbol of rank, a left over from the days when <BR>
>> the leaders would have huge banners denoting their position.<BR>
><BR>
>I wonder if it's related to the "baton" (rather more ornate) that the<BR>
>Romans used to give to victorious commanders. I *know* I know more<BR>
>details than this, I just can't get them to surface!<BR>
<BR>
A direct decendant.  <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 18:36:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 04:03 PM 6/2/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I was trying to think of the inspiration for the various major races in <BR>
>Traveller.  Do these make sense ?   Are there better analogs ?<BR>
><BR>
>Aslan       -  Kzinti from Larry Niven's Known Space series<BR>
<BR>
Or the Chanur from C.J. Cherryh.  Much better match actually, since the<BR>
Chanur are traders, with very smart females.<BR>
                    <BR>
>Droyne     -  the typical inhabitants of the flying saucers (Roswell, etc)<BR>
<BR>
The Droyne are fairly original.<BR>
<BR>
>Hiver        -  The "Bugs" from Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers<BR>
<BR>
Nowhere near close.  The Hivers are not insects, are not communal mind<BR>
critters, and are not warlike.<BR>
<BR>
>K'Kree      -  ???<BR>
<BR>
well, the classic Centaurs of Greco-Roman myth, of course.<BR>
<BR>
>Solomani -  Orwell's book, "1984"; the movie/book, "Fahrenheit 451";  other<BR>
>totalitarian goverments (Hitler's Third Reich, the cold war USSR, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Vargre     - Dogs in Space ??  Reminds me somewhat of the Muppets, "Pigs<BR>
in Space".<BR>
<BR>
There have been dozens of dog-like aliens, but I think that the idea of the<BR>
Vargr (no e) as genetically uplifted and transported wolves was new.<BR>
<BR>
>Vilani      -  The Roman Empire (or British Empire)<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani were more Chinese than anything.  Very strict caste structure,<BR>
very little social or intellectual mobility, seemingly eternal until that<BR>
little band of barbarians showed up...<BR>
<BR>
>Zhodani   -   ???<BR>
<BR>
The Han from Buck Rodgers.<BR>
><BR>
>Are there any races (major/minor) that are basically there for comedic<BR>
value ?<BR>
<BR>
Thankfully, no.  Each race has been presented in a serious manner.<BR>
<BR>
>Since we have cats & dogs, bugs & horses, and humans, what about fish & <BR>
>birds and even dinosaurs (reptiles) ?  Would a civilization of fish, birds, <BR>
>or dinosaurs be possible ?<BR>
<BR>
We have the Githsanko, an octopoid race; and the Ael Yael, an avian species.<BR>
<BR>
Since a civilization of apes is possible, anything is possible.  In<BR>
Traveller, there are intelligent gas giant creatures.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Alle preisen den Pinguinherrscher!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 13:38:45 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jun 00, at 9:16, Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Continuing the fine tradition of the Imperium's most innovative company,<BR>
> Famile Spofulam yesterday revealed their latest model. Defined as a<BR>
> "forklift" for legal and tariff reasons, it is capable of a top speed of 404<BR>
> km per hour, accelerates to 100 kmh in 10.4 seconds and does a quarter mile<BR>
> from a dead stop start in 17.3 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
Dear Hengbar<BR>
	What are the colour options, is it available in pink?<BR>
<BR>
Yours etc.<BR>
	Isobella DeMarin<BR>
	Supreme Ruler for Life, Light of the Universe, Beloved of the People<BR>
	Montecolli/Diapora<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:41:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
This is the trouble with quick throwaway lines<BR>
they sometimes bounce back.<BR>
<BR>
A crack squad of zen buddhists wear blue windcheaters<BR>
with<BR>
a patch on the back with Bhoddivista (sp) in dayglo<BR>
orange.<BR>
<BR>
I know this cos I wrote it.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:00:45 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
Baron David Coulsworth will take the opportunity to address the <BR>
insults aimed at the fine arms merchant combine of "Maximus/X-<BR>
Tek"<BR>
<BR>
"Famile Spofulam has obviously let its reality addled brains <BR>
concoct this publicity statement, anything under 10 megajoules is <BR>
still a small arm in our catalog"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:22:48 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > In the late Medieval era the Turks fielded troops named Janissaries.  Their rank structure was based on their communal/barracks life; specifically, their food.  Each soldier's most important posession was his mess kit.  Leaders were "Cooks," higher officers were "Chefs," soldiers were "Diners."  A squad was a "table," a company a "mess hall."  To an extent these titles were strictly honorific, but what rank titles aren't?<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm.  Given the Vilani penchant for cannibalism, shouldn't<BR>
> the soldiers be "Dinners"?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Ok... I will admit some culpability in this topic...<BR>
<BR>
Here is just a little odd Bit.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani equivalent to Ensign... => Is Junior officer in charge of the condiments.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:24:23 -0500<BR>
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net><BR>
Subject: Re: mil ranks again<BR>
<BR>
I use Colors Sergeant. And don't under estimate the use of First Sergeant as a<BR>
company senior sergeant. He can still have a pay rank of Master Sergeant but the<BR>
designation of Top Kick or First Sergeant is a traditional one in many armies.<BR>
It's much like "Captain" refers to the commander of a ship.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:07:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : acceleration tolerances (was : Shipboard Gravitics)<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody wrote :-<BR>
<good description of F16 cockpit ergonomics snipped><BR>
>  I don't think 18 G's would be doable unless you had some way to thicken the<BR>
> blood but then you risk heart attack.<BR>
> Having a person operate above 9 G for any length of time without some way to keep the blood in the head is not<BR>
> really feasible.<BR>
The 18G figure comes from USAF work back in the 50's and 60's in<BR>
preparation for manned spaceflight. This sort of acceleration can be<BR>
tolerated for a few minutes.<BR>
<BR>
The best way to orient the pilot/crew would be so that the acceleration<BR>
vector runs along an anteroposterior axis (i.e. from front to back<BR>
rather than head to foot, e.g. all manned space missions).<BR>
<BR>
Pooling blood in the head is counterproductive ; see below. The goal is<BR>
to maintain circulation, and thus delivery of oxygen to the brain.<BR>
<BR>
> Most people can't tolerate more than maybe 2 Gs negatively.  Not sure why this is<BR>
> exactly, but the body and brain is hard-wired for positive Gs.<BR>
You had part of the answer in the earlier part of your post. The<BR>
acceleration causes blood to pool in the upper body, hence the<BR>
phenomenon of 'red-out' from engorgement of the vasculature of the eye.<BR>
Unconsciousness will generally ensue from cerebral hypoxia within one to<BR>
two minutes.<BR>
<BR>
The cardiovascular and nervous systems are indeed 'hard-wired' for +ve<BR>
acceleration i.e. one gravity's worth directed from head to foot.<BR>
'Blackout' is caused by the opposite problem to 'red-out' - pooling of<BR>
blood in the lower body and cerebral hypoxia, when the usual reflexes<BR>
can't compensate in time or amount.<BR>
<BR>
> A G couch of some<BR>
> sort that could swivel with the direction of G might be a good way to<BR>
> overcome this, but you would need one for every crewmember or you would have<BR>
> a Whole lot of incapacitated and possibly dead or brain dead at the least<BR>
> crewmembers.<BR>
Remember that acceleration is a vector quantity, so the couches might<BR>
not need to move very much.<BR>
<BR>
Brain death is defined as the 'irreversible cessation of brain function'<BR>
and is the current medical and legal definition of 'death' in most<BR>
jurisdictions.<BR>
<BR>
Cardiac and respiratory standstill can often be reversed and is probably<BR>
better referred to as 'cardiac/respiratory arrest' rather than death per<BR>
se, even though the outcome is lethal at least 50% of the time.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:24:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/2/00 6:19 PM, urbin@bigfoot.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I just scanned the webring produced list pages for all 36 sites.  No<BR>
> "Moosepuppy."<BR>
<BR>
My mistake, it was on the deckplans webring index (third down). Still get a<BR>
"File not found." though. I copied the link, perhaps there is a typo in it.<BR>
It is some sort of script though, so I think you need to click it on the<BR>
index page:<BR>
<BR>
Deckplans Index:<BR>
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=deckring;index<BR>
<BR>
Moosepuppy's Page:<BR>
http://go.webring.org/go?ring=deckring;id=17;go<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:53:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Baron David Coulsworth will take the opportunity to address the <BR>
> insults aimed at the fine arms merchant combine of "Maximus/X-<BR>
> Tek"<BR>
><BR>
> "Famile Spofulam has obviously let its reality addled brains <BR>
> concoct this publicity statement, anything under 10 megajoules is <BR>
> still a small arm in our catalog"<BR>
<BR>
Hey, they did say "most". If I was you, I'd just offer a list of the<BR>
weapons it *isn't* immune to, and hold a sale. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:50:55 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Vilani for Dinner (was Rank Titles)<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> Okay, stop laughing...<BR>
<BR>
>Well, it /is/ funny, but curiously it sounds like a reasonable model for<BR>
>Vilani to me, at least early in their history. It makes me wonder though,<BR>
>did the Vilani have internal conflicts in their society strong enough to<BR>
>result in war previous to becoming an intersteller community?<BR>
<BR>
Probably at some point, once they had licked the food problem enough to<BR>
support an expanding population. They must have had *some* impetus to go out<BR>
to the stars...<BR>
<BR>
I never read Vilani & Vargr, but from what I've seen on the list, the Vilani<BR>
didn't have surrender customs like Terrans (at least, Western world Terrans)<BR>
have. This probably came from the wars on prehistoric Vland: if you were<BR>
captured, you had to *hope* the winning side had a labor shortage...<BR>
<BR>
Did the Vilani have a custom in their prehistory similar to the one the<BR>
Eskimos are supposed to have (I don't know if this is actually true) of<BR>
getting rid of their elderly (except they use a cooking pot, not an ice<BR>
floe..)<BR>
<BR>
On Vland, "Logan's Run" and "Soylent Green" would be the same movie.<BR>
<BR>
And they'd both be "historical fiction."<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2544<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:50:11 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:49:41 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA55090;<BR>
	Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:47:31 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:47:23 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id AAA55050<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:47:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:47:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006030447.AAA55050@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2544<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2545</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/3/00 11:46:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2545<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Vilani for Dinner (was Rank Titles)<BR>
RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2543<BR>
Re: Minor human races [Mild spoiler for Sky Raiders trilogy]<BR>
Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
Cargo Containers/Round Ships<BR>
Diamond King class Mining Factory Ship<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
Re: Authenticists<BR>
RE: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Roc: Beowulf's Name<BR>
RE: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
Re:Landgrab Forine<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 03:26:01 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for Dinner (was Rank Titles)<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Did the Vilani have a custom in their prehistory similar to the one the<BR>
> Eskimos are supposed to have (I don't know if this is actually true) of<BR>
> getting rid of their elderly (except they use a cooking pot, not an ice<BR>
> floe..)<BR>
><BR>
> On Vland, "Logan's Run" and "Soylent Green" would be the same movie.<BR>
><BR>
> And they'd both be "historical fiction."<BR>
<BR>
Well, Vilani live so long that it isn't an issue.<BR>
V&V says a pure blood will average 130 with<BR>
150 not uncommon.  Emperor Martin II lived<BR>
to be 189.  Add in millenia of Solomani medicine,<BR>
and I could easily see some living 200+, assuming<BR>
you could still find a pureblood.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you apply Traveller aging rules (which<BR>
I have a big problem with for characters born on<BR>
TL10+ worlds and/or living their lives in those<BR>
systems), the likely stats of any pureblood Vilani<BR>
over 100 would be 1111-- (Edu and Soc uneffected<BR>
by age), so don't breathe on them.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 03:19:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Droyne     -  the typical inhabitants of the flying saucers (Roswell, etc)<BR>
<BR>
Maybe, in an extremely general sense, in the sense that Yaskodray came to<BR>
earth and abducted people. The "typical" inhabitants are a relatively new<BR>
creation. When it comes to encounter and abduction stories before about the<BR>
very late 70s and early 80s the inhabitants of flying saucers were anything<BR>
but "typical". There were tall aliens, short aliens, freakish aliens,<BR>
blonde-haired, blue-eyed pretty boy aliens. The list goes on and on.<BR>
<BR>
The droyne were created at such a time when there were no "typical"<BR>
Roswellian aliens.<BR>
<BR>
>Hiver        -  The "Bugs" from Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers<BR>
<BR>
I don't see it.<BR>
<BR>
>K'Kree      -  ???<BR>
<BR>
In a broad sense these guys are the single-minded and uncomprimising alien<BR>
menaces which haunted the covers of pulp magazines and comic books.<BR>
<BR>
>Vilani      -  The Roman Empire (or British Empire)<BR>
<BR>
Coming up with what the inspiration for the Vilani might have been is tough<BR>
to do. There was little written about the Vilani specifically until the days<BR>
of MegaTraveller.<BR>
<BR>
>Zhodani   -   ???<BR>
<BR>
Bad guy aliens with strange mental powers and turbans. These guys are the<BR>
stuff of old school serial sci-fi in the tradition of Buck Rogers and that<BR>
two-bit ripoff Flash Gordon.<BR>
<BR>
>Are there any races (major/minor) that are basically there for comedic<BR>
value ?<BR>
<BR>
Not to the best of my knowledge, although some might argue that Dave<BR>
Nilsen's take on the Ithklur was intended that way. I don't agree with that<BR>
sentiment, but I have heard people voice such a complaint.<BR>
<BR>
>Since we have cats & dogs, bugs & horses, and humans, what about fish &<BR>
birds and even<BR>
>dinosaurs (reptiles) ?  Would a civilization of fish, birds, or dinosaurs<BR>
be possible ?<BR>
<BR>
There is a hint in one of the TNE books (I think "Aliens of the Rim: Hivers<BR>
& Ithklur") that the Ithklur *might* be descended from dinosaurs (or<BR>
possibly creatures like them).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 01:15:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
From: Robert Snyder <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I was trying to think of the inspiration for the various major races in<BR>
Traveller.  Do these make<BR>
>sense ?   Are there better analogs ?<BR>
<BR>
>Vargre     - Dogs in Space ??  Reminds me somewhat of the Muppets, "Pigs in<BR>
Space".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    1) Is Vargr.<BR>
    2) Have you ever seen the movie with Don Johnson, "A Boy & His Dog"?<BR>
You might want to see it, as it does talk about uplifted dogs.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 06:09:54 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2543<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:56:23 +0200<BR>
> From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
> Subject: Panamax<BR>
> <BR>
>   does anybody know the exact 'Panamax' size :<BR>
> <BR>
>   So far I have found on the web :<BR>
> <BR>
>     305m length, 33.5m wide, 19m depth.<BR>
> <BR>
>   Could anybody confirm those values.<BR>
<BR>
My source (Schiffe und Schiffahrt von morgen, 1983) says 32.2m beam, 13.7m<BR>
draft, and about 60,000-80,000 dwt.<BR>
<BR>
The available draft may have been increased by dredging, but I suspect<BR>
your figure is the width of the canal locks themselves and not that of a<BR>
ship built to fit them.<BR>
<BR>
>   ObTrav:<BR>
>     Many Solomani ships still have Panamax size, as Panamax is the<BR>
>     most common size for repair docks in shipyards and starports.<BR>
<BR>
Extremely doubtful: it will be centuries before spacecraft are powerful<BR>
and versatile enough to use the same facilities as surface vessels. In the<BR>
meantime, other standards more pertinent to spacecraft operations will<BR>
evolve.<BR>
<BR>
Example: Perhaps a standard 10-ton cargo container is a cylinder 4.5m in<BR>
diamter and 9m long -- sized to fit two in a shuttle cargo bay, even<BR>
though the shuttle is long gone and forgotten. Certainly there are a<BR>
number of canonical small craft with a 4.5m cross-section: 20-ton launch,<BR>
30-ton ship's boat, 40-ton pinnace (all Supp 7, p. 40); the /Azhanti High<BR>
Lightning/-class cruiser carries a 4.5m docking ring (Supp 5, p. 38).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 13:20:50 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Minor human races [Mild spoiler for Sky Raiders trilogy]<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I believe that somewhere in "canon" it is stated that there are 41 human <BR>
>races out there (I can't remember if this does or does not include the <BR>
>major races, but I believe this is the count of minor races).  <BR>
<BR>
The correct number is 47 minor and 3 major human races known by the people<BR>
of the Imperium to have survived till 1120 (though some reference works<BR>
would say 46 minors, since the news of the survival of the Loeskalth [Sky<BR>
Raider Trilogy] would take its time getting through to the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Note the wiggle room: Somewhere in areas little known to the Imperium and<BR>
its neighbors there may be more.<BR>
<BR>
>I did a count at one time and came up with about 35 minor human races,<BR>
>including the "lost" Dynchia, and the Azhanti High Lightning mentioned<BR>
>races.<BR>
 <BR>
Yeah, there aren't many slots left. Traveller authors seem unable to resist<BR>
the temptation to introduce new minor human races at the drop of a hat. BtC<BR>
had TWO new ones in two throw-away references. I really, really hope those<BR>
will be removed again.<BR>
<BR>
As for the Dynchia, they are not lost, they are just non-canonical. Peter<BR>
was so unlucky that he chose to put them in an area that had already been<BR>
detailed, so they were in conflict with previously published material.<BR>
Perhaps Marc or Loren will approve of moving them to some suitable new<BR>
location.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 06:37:38 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:01:07 PST<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > ObTrav: Jon Zeigler has introduced an "Authenticist" movement in the GT <BR>
> > Solomani Rim sourcebook. Maybe all those TL4- worlds are inhabited by the<BR>
> > rabid Recreationist fringe of the Authenticists. [Jon lives on Markland's<BR>
> > home turf -- perhaps this is no coincidence.]<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, there are *lots* of other "historical re-creation" groups for<BR>
> various periods. Some local SCA folks are also members of a group that<BR>
> does Roman Legion stuff. <BR>
> <BR>
> And for that matter, a few of us who've read Jean Auel's stuff for the<BR>
> *background* rather than the *plot*, think that a "neolithic<BR>
> re-anactment" group could be fun...<BR>
<BR>
That's why I specified TL4-, rather than something lower. I can imagine a<BR>
technological civilization falling to TL5, but anything lower pretty much<BR>
has to be deliberate. Either they never had higher tech (interdicted<BR>
world, like Victoria) or they turned their backs on it.<BR>
<BR>
I was picturing American Civil War-type recreationists, or Victoriana<BR>
fans (steamships, dirigibles, and Babbage engines, oh, my!).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, after the founding generation (and their enthusiasm) dies off,<BR>
their descendents are left to muddle through with a horrific trade<BR>
imbalance and no hope of offworld investment.<BR>
<BR>
> > Hraefn Dhrysca<BR>
> > formerly Chief Wench of the Maryland Mediaeval Mercenary Militia<BR>
> <BR>
> How does a "Cristopher" get to be "Chief Wench"? :-)<BR>
<BR>
[... making a slick dive back On Topic ...]<BR>
<BR>
That was the title that came with the job. It would have been called<BR>
"secretary," in any more conventional (or more PC) organization.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:25:18 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Cargo Containers/Round Ships<BR>
<BR>
At 6:09 AM -0500 6/3/00, Christopher Thrash wrote:<BR>
>Example: Perhaps a standard 10-ton cargo container is a cylinder 4.5m in<BR>
>diamter and 9m long -- sized to fit two in a shuttle cargo bay, even<BR>
>though the shuttle is long gone and forgotten. Certainly there are a<BR>
>number of canonical small craft with a 4.5m cross-section: 20-ton launch,<BR>
>30-ton ship's boat, 40-ton pinnace (all Supp 7, p. 40); the /Azhanti High<BR>
>Lightning/-class cruiser carries a 4.5m docking ring (Supp 5, p. 38).<BR>
<BR>
I know this was a hypothetical, but keep in mind that any cargo container<BR>
will be a rectangular prism so that it can be stacked.  Even a cylindrical<BR>
pressure vessel will have a square frame around it.<BR>
<BR>
I know it's canon, but cylindrical spaceships don't make much sense<BR>
with artificial gravity, especially small ones where the curvature is<BR>
high relative to the decks and the crew.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:10:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Diamond King class Mining Factory Ship<BR>
<BR>
Maximus Interstellar announces the newest class of ship in its <BR>
commercial line. <BR>
<BR>
"The Diamond King is designed to act as a base ship, similar to <BR>
the terran fishery factory ship. it carries 4 Seekers, and 4 <BR>
Clementine class mining cutters. They carry 2 complete ore <BR>
processing units, and can process 100kg of ore a second.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller Ship Data Sheet:<BR>
<BR>
Class Name: Diamond King<BR>
Type: Mining Tender<BR>
<BR>
TL: 12<BR>
Tonnage: 5,000 USL<BR>
Cost: 1,189.62 MCR<BR>
Mass: 17,295.28 Tons<BR>
DR: 212<BR>
Hit Points: <BR>
Crew: 86<BR>
<BR>
Engineering:<BR>
Jump: 2<BR>
Maneuver: 2<BR>
<BR>
Offensive Systems:<BR>
<BR>
Defensive Systems:<BR>
5 Triple Quadpulse PDL Clusters<BR>
5 Triple Sandcasters<BR>
<BR>
Sensors:<BR>
Enhanced Sensors<BR>
Deep Scan PESA Array<BR>
Probe Module<BR>
<BR>
Small Craft:<BR>
4 Seekers<BR>
4 Mining Cutters<BR>
<BR>
Other Features:<BR>
Hardened Basic Bridge<BR>
Enhanced Communications<BR>
Backup Engineering Module<BR>
2 Large Ore Processing Modules[100kg minute]<BR>
5 Logistics Modules<BR>
2 Military Sick Bays<BR>
Theatre, Gymnasium<BR>
4 Labs[2 Geology, Robotics, metalurgy]<BR>
60 Staterooms<BR>
32 Low Berths<BR>
5 Barracks<BR>
1,937 Tons Cargo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
NOTES:<BR>
Designed as a base camp for a mining away team, <BR>
self sufficient with<BR>
Logistics and support equipment carried onboard<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:10:21 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
good point, and we can always buy a few of them for gunnery <BR>
practice drones. you can never have enough variety.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:16:56 EDT<BR>
From: LB2NOLA@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead ring<BR>
<BR>
I know he has a guest-list...and you are right, he should be invited to the <BR>
list....I mean, the name alone......<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:24:20 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
Per Your Request, mon ami<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:54 AM<BR>
Subject: Imperial Survey: Your fleet combat sessions<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Bureau of Imperial Interstellar Affairs <BR>
> Fleet Combat Questionnaire<BR>
> <BR>
> INSTRUCTIONS<BR>
> <BR>
> This survey has been downloaded into your pocket computer<BR>
> via the Starport Authority of this installation.  Please<BR>
> answer the following questions using your standard glyph<BR>
> system, and the SA computers will collate and translate<BR>
> for the B.I.I.A.  Thank you.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you've never done any fleet combat, thank you and<BR>
> have a nice day.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. How much fleet combat have you done?<BR>
A bit, from small unit actions of 1-2 per side up to large<BR>
fleet actions of 10 per battle group.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2. When was your first (estimated) fleet combat?<BR>
When the LLB's first came out<BR>
> <BR>
> 3. When was your last (est) fleet combat?<BR>
April 2000<BR>
<BR>
> 4. Which milieux were your fleet combats in?<BR>
CT/MT  & variants<BR>
> 5. To the bst of your knowledge, what were the<BR>
>    rough compositions of your fleets?<BR>
Of the most recent session or what.<BR>
I'll be happy to provide OB's if requested<BR>
> <BR>
> 6. How satsfying were the fleet combat sessions?<BR>
It depends on the side and the comeplexity<BR>
In general though, I beleive that my gaming groups<BR>
enjoyed their combat sessions.<BR>
<BR>
> 7. What do you like about fleet combat?<BR>
Sillly question, Guns, Missiles, Flashing fighters all about. etc<BR>
Wait a moment, I'm getting misty eyeed here<BR>
> <BR>
> 8. What do you dislike about fleet combat?<BR>
> <BR>
> 9. Do you have any additional comments?<BR>
> Yes, of late our group has converted to using<BR>
a modified Full Thrust variant for mosty small ship<BR>
to medium ship actions.<BR>
(all thanks to the great and power Travlist for assistance in this)<BR>
<BR>
We still use CT/MT for really large group actions, however<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 17:33:21 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Authenticists<BR>
<BR>
Moin Christopher Thrash,<BR>
<BR>
> That's why I specified TL4-, rather than something lower. I can imagine a<BR>
> technological civilization falling to TL5, but anything lower pretty much<BR>
> has to be deliberate. Either they never had higher tech (interdicted<BR>
> world, like Victoria) or they turned their backs on it.<BR>
<BR>
  speaking about Traveller TL (not GURPS TL) I see a relation between<BR>
  population level and Techlevel, in so far that<BR>
<BR>
    Techlevel-MaintenanceModifier<=PopulationLevel+TradeModifier<BR>
<BR>
  I call this formular : Sustaining techlevel.<BR>
<BR>
  Its imho likely that a group of around 100-900 people who wont have<BR>
  trade for generations, will fall back to techlevel 2, because they<BR>
  can not sustain the higher techlevel they had.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 17:35:21 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
Answers - those I can work out - follow the questions in the body of<BR>
the text.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> John Wood<BR>
> Sent: 01 June 2000 22:26<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> 1. There is no real equator; the only (meteorologically) significant<BR>
> great circle is the twilight belt. However, the plane of orbit will<BR>
pass<BR>
> through the bright and dark "poles" and cartographers can use the<BR>
> leading line as the prime meridian.<BR>
><BR>
> What names can I use for the directions? I could just say<BR>
><BR>
There still is an equator IF there is any precession (wobble) of the<BR>
planet as it orbits the sun, or any magnetic pole. Even if there are<BR>
none of these, there is still an effective equator either in the plane<BR>
of the orbit or in the circumference of greatest distance if there is<BR>
any oblation ('squashing' of the spherical shape) of the planet (and<BR>
there always should be).<BR>
<BR>
So, you can always place an equator, which means you can always place<BR>
north and south poles. If all life is in the terminator region, you<BR>
can also have dayward and nightward while if life is in the day or<BR>
night sides of the planet you can have eastward and westward.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
> year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit.<BR>
><BR>
Yes there will - geostationary just means it stays in the same<BR>
relative position to the surface and that depends on both the rotation<BR>
speed of the planet and the gravity. Together, they determine the<BR>
distance of the geostationary orbit from the surface. On a tide-locked<BR>
planet, it would just be further away than the 23,000 miles it is<BR>
around Earth.<BR>
><BR>
> What satellite-based technologies on Earth today require<BR>
> geostationary orbit? Will this have any other effect on<BR>
> traffic patterns?<BR>
><BR>
Communications, particularly broadcast ones. The only effect would be<BR>
that you would need more satellites (than one) to cover a particular<BR>
broadcast area and would simply switch from satellite to satellite as<BR>
needed. Your dish would have to be a tracking one. Or, of course, they<BR>
could go for the distant geostationary orbit and need more broadcast<BR>
power.<BR>
><BR>
> 3. There is no coriolis force, so fluids will not have a tendency to<BR>
> circle in any particular direction. Bathwater will go straight down<BR>
the<BR>
> plughole, winds and currents will be very different from Earth's.<BR>
><BR>
> Will there be hurricanes? What will weather be like on<BR>
> various parts of Prilissa?<BR>
><BR>
There may be no coriolis force, but that is not the major determinant<BR>
of climate - that's down to convection currents to distribute the heat<BR>
evenly, and on a tide-locked planet will be massive. Huge cold winds<BR>
coming in from the darkside seas and higher, hot winds going from the<BR>
dayside landmasses to the darkside ones. I'd predict massive coastal<BR>
cyclones all around the terminator and going both ways - hurricanes<BR>
certainly.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:44:32 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 04:03 PM 6/2/00 -0700, Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Are there any races (major/minor) that are basically there for comedic value ?<BR>
><BR>
>Since we have cats & dogs, bugs & horses, and humans, what about fish & <BR>
>birds and even<BR>
>dinosaurs (reptiles) ?  Would a civilization of fish, birds, or dinosaurs <BR>
>be possible ?<BR>
<BR>
For saurians, what about the Hhkar from Challenge 52.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
       nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
"You can get more with a kind word<BR>
      and a 2 x 4,<BR>
than you can with just a kind word."<BR>
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:35:23 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Beowulf's Name<BR>
<BR>
Can you smell what The Roc has written?:<BR>
<BR>
> I had a case-load of such stuff.  Equipment named after statesmen,<BR>
>  scientists, military men/women, etc. of the 1I and 2I, of Vargr heroes,<BR>
>  worlds, conflicts, of Aslan battles, families, and so forth, you name it, I<BR>
>  may have had it... Alas, these were all type and handwritten notes and have<BR>
>  since been irreplaceable lost to water damage.  But, it can be done and my<BR>
>  players certainly enjoyed hearing names other than "Enterprise" or "John<BR>
>  Henry" or "Sherman" or whatever.  Oh, I did endeavour to make most names<BR>
>  pronounceable where I could :^)<BR>
<BR>
It may sound stupid, but the best place I've found for finding pronouncable <BR>
"non-standard" names is my local whitepages phone number directory. It's <BR>
amazing the incredible variety of names that can be found (no, I'm not trying <BR>
to be humorous), many with definite science-fiction flavour to them.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:40:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
Pinkerdoo Design Group would like to make you aware of the Rapier class HiG<BR>
Interceptor (design specs at<BR>
http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo/Designs/Rapier.htm). This design was<BR>
submitted to the Imperial Navy at Mora 14 years ago as a possible 'scout'<BR>
fighter. Sadly it was not received well. IN sources quoted light weapons,<BR>
armor and the inability of the pilot sustain 6 G's of felt acceleration over<BR>
several hours.<BR>
<BR>
Tributis Arms has licensed the design to several extra-Imperial concerns<BR>
where it enjoys some success in the Varger Extents. While not capable of 18<BR>
G maneuvers, it has a sustained 12 G capability that is not seen in any<BR>
other fighter of it's class.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your interest in Pinkerdoo Design Group!<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 4:33 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Shipboard Gravitics<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> 'Womb tanks' are the only way to go if we postulate any sort of decent<BR>
>>> sustained acceleration (4+G's for a number of hours, 18+G's the 'muscle<BR>
>>> control' limit, 80+G's for a second or so).*<BR>
>><BR>
>> And I'm still waiting for someone to design a fighter that *uses* that<BR>
>> "hours at 4 g" limit. And has an 18g "emergency jink" capability if<BR>
>> sensors detect a shot that's going to be too close. And maybe an 80 g<BR>
>> "oh shit!" one-time burst capability (ejection seats use this limit<BR>
>> currently).<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm.  Sounds like a challenge....<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not sure whether I'll be able to manage the 80-g burst, but I'll try<BR>
> to work in the 18-g jink.<BR>
<BR>
The 80-g burst should be a "dump emergency overload into the engine"<BR>
bit. And likely leave the drive as so much *junk*. Useful to dodge that<BR>
missile at the last second, and then leave you drifting.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody seeing that on sensors won't waste any shots on you because you<BR>
aren't a threat anymore. At least as long as you aren't drifting<BR>
towards them, or pointing at them (after all, your weapons might still<BR>
work).<BR>
<BR>
Like I said, the rules don't really allow for that sort of "burn it<BR>
out" situation.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:16:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:01:07 PST<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> Subject: Re: Oh, that's just great (was Re: Beowabbit)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> ObTrav: Jon Zeigler has introduced an "Authenticist" movement in the GT <BR>
>>> Solomani Rim sourcebook. Maybe all those TL4- worlds are inhabited by the<BR>
>>> rabid Recreationist fringe of the Authenticists. [Jon lives on Markland's<BR>
>>> home turf -- perhaps this is no coincidence.]<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Well, there are *lots* of other "historical re-creation" groups for<BR>
>> various periods. Some local SCA folks are also members of a group that<BR>
>> does Roman Legion stuff. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> And for that matter, a few of us who've read Jean Auel's stuff for the<BR>
>> *background* rather than the *plot*, think that a "neolithic<BR>
>> re-anactment" group could be fun...<BR>
><BR>
> That's why I specified TL4-, rather than something lower. I can imagine a<BR>
> technological civilization falling to TL5, but anything lower pretty much<BR>
> has to be deliberate. Either they never had higher tech (interdicted<BR>
> world, like Victoria) or they turned their backs on it.<BR>
><BR>
> I was picturing American Civil War-type recreationists, or Victoriana<BR>
> fans (steamships, dirigibles, and Babbage engines, oh, my!).<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, after the founding generation (and their enthusiasm) dies off,<BR>
> their descendents are left to muddle through with a horrific trade<BR>
> imbalance and no hope of offworld investment.<BR>
<BR>
Depends. The world could be one big "Ren Faire" and live off tourists. <BR>
<BR>
And hand crafted stuff of any sort of quality sells quite well in<BR>
higher TL societies. <BR>
<BR>
I'd also expect the TL of such planets to be "stretched" to the limit.<BR>
They'd likely have some stuff that's supportable at that TL, even<BR>
though it wasn't invented/discovered until many TLs later on earth. A<BR>
lot of medical stuff would be that way, as well as a lot of<BR>
engineering (Romans could have built *huge* Geodesic domes, for<BR>
example). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 13:51:06 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re:Landgrab Forine<BR>
<BR>
Hi All<BR>
<BR>
I have finished the first part of my Landgrab project for Forine<BR>
<BR>
Go to <BR>
<BR>
http://www.premier.net/~tim/landgrab/introduc.htm<BR>
<BR>
and take a look at the site.<BR>
<BR>
Also dont forget <BR>
<BR>
http://www.premier.net/~tim/zimiinmain/zimiinmain.htm<BR>
<BR>
for the rest of my Traveller stuff.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2545<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:46:55 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:46:23 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA87215;<BR>
	Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:45:21 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:43:52 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id OAA86896<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:43:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:43:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006031843.OAA86896@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2545<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2546</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/3/00 5:02:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2546<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Re: Cargo Containers/Round Ships<BR>
Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
Re: Minor Human Races<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
RE: Authors on their own works<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Vs: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re: Minor Human Races<BR>
Vote for Your Favorite Classic Traveller Adventure<BR>
Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:33:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> 1. There is no real equator; the only (meteorologically) significant<BR>
>> great circle is the twilight belt. However, the plane of orbit will<BR>
> pass<BR>
>> through the bright and dark "poles" and cartographers can use the<BR>
>> leading line as the prime meridian.<BR>
>><BR>
>> What names can I use for the directions? I could just say<BR>
>><BR>
> There still is an equator IF there is any precession (wobble) of the<BR>
> planet as it orbits the sun, or any magnetic pole. Even if there are<BR>
> none of these, there is still an effective equator either in the plane<BR>
> of the orbit or in the circumference of greatest distance if there is<BR>
> any oblation ('squashing' of the spherical shape) of the planet (and<BR>
> there always should be).<BR>
<BR>
There's an equator. Period.<BR>
<BR>
After all, the planet *does* rotate. A planet that *didn't* rotate<BR>
would have a day the same length as its year.<BR>
<BR>
>> 2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
>> year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit.<BR>
>><BR>
> Yes there will - geostationary just means it stays in the same<BR>
> relative position to the surface and that depends on both the rotation<BR>
> speed of the planet and the gravity. Together, they determine the<BR>
> distance of the geostationary orbit from the surface. On a tide-locked<BR>
> planet, it would just be further away than the 23,000 miles it is<BR>
> around Earth.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, such a position will be impossible to keep an orbiting<BR>
satellite in. It'll be far enough out that the star's gravity is<BR>
stronger than the planet's. So it'd orbit the star *instead*.<BR>
<BR>
>> 3. There is no coriolis force, so fluids will not have a tendency to<BR>
>> circle in any particular direction. Bathwater will go straight down<BR>
> the<BR>
>> plughole, winds and currents will be very different from Earth's.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Will there be hurricanes? What will weather be like on<BR>
>> various parts of Prilissa?<BR>
>><BR>
> There may be no coriolis force, but that is not the major determinant<BR>
> of climate - that's down to convection currents to distribute the heat<BR>
> evenly, and on a tide-locked planet will be massive. Huge cold winds<BR>
> coming in from the darkside seas and higher, hot winds going from the<BR>
> dayside landmasses to the darkside ones. I'd predict massive coastal<BR>
> cyclones all around the terminator and going both ways - hurricanes<BR>
> certainly.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but cyclones *require* coriolis forces. That's what drives the<BR>
initial rotation. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, since the prevailing wind pattern will be high<BR>
altitude flows towards dayside and low altitude flows towards<BR>
nightside, any thunderstorm that spans the boundary region will be<BR>
virtually *certain* to get a rotation about a horizontal axis induced<BR>
in the rising and falling air. <BR>
<BR>
That's the sort of thing that spawns tornadoes. <BR>
<BR>
So maybe tornadoes accompany *most* storms above a certain size on this<BR>
world?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:10:54 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers/Round Ships<BR>
<BR>
On 06/03/00 at 08:25 AM,  Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Example: Perhaps a standard 10-ton cargo container is a cylinder 4.5m in<BR>
>>diamter and 9m long -- sized to fit two in a shuttle cargo bay, even<BR>
>>though the shuttle is long gone and forgotten. Certainly there are a<BR>
>>number of canonical small craft with a 4.5m cross-section: 20-ton launch,<BR>
>>30-ton ship's boat, 40-ton pinnace (all Supp 7, p. 40); the /Azhanti High<BR>
>>Lightning/-class cruiser carries a 4.5m docking ring (Supp 5, p. 38).<BR>
<BR>
>I know this was a hypothetical, but keep in mind that any cargo container<BR>
>will be a rectangular prism so that it can be stacked.  Even a<BR>
>cylindrical pressure vessel will have a square frame around it.<BR>
<BR>
>I know it's canon, but cylindrical spaceships don't make much sense with<BR>
>artificial gravity, especially small ones where the curvature is high<BR>
>relative to the decks and the crew.<BR>
<BR>
Others may differ, but I agree with you.  <BR>
<BR>
For MTU most of the ships I design are based on an internal box<BR>
frame.  Outside that frame there might be a curved, streamlined<BR>
shell, but the usable space is in the box.  What I tend to do is<BR>
put a lot of the "waste space" and fuel storage in the space between<BR>
the box frame and the other shell.  I also use standard 3.5 m deck<BR>
heights (2.5 m floor to overhead with a 1 m crawl space between<BR>
decks) so a 1x1x3.5 m block represents a quarter dton.  I can move a<BR>
lot of equipment, piping, wiring, and so on up into the crawl spaces,<BR>
plus it gives plenty of hiding spaces.  <g><BR>
<BR>
IMTU, there are several standards for cargo containers.  One of the<BR>
most common is 6 m long x 4 m wide x 3 m high (5 dtons of internal<BR>
storage space after you take the container's structure, packing and<BR>
controls into account).  This allows the containers to slide through<BR>
cargo doors, fit in single deck bays, and be stacked neatly in<BR>
"multi-deck" bays.  IMO, the shape and size is for all kinds of<BR>
modules. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:14:39 -0400<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Answers - those I can work out - follow the questions in the body of<BR>
> the text.<BR>
<BR>
And a minor comment here on one of your answers....<BR>
<BR>
> > 2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
> > year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit.<BR>
> ><BR>
> Yes there will - geostationary just means it stays in the same<BR>
> relative position to the surface and that depends on both the rotation<BR>
> speed of the planet and the gravity. Together, they determine the<BR>
> distance of the geostationary orbit from the surface. On a tide-locked<BR>
> planet, it would just be further away than the 23,000 miles it is<BR>
> around Earth.<BR>
<BR>
	Well, this one isn't right. A geostationary orbit is one where the<BR>
satellite is always directly above the same point (this is why all<BR>
geostationary orbits are also equatorial - otherwise the satellite<BR>
changes its longitudinal position and isn't truly stationary). Now, the<BR>
whole point of a tide-locked planet is that the sun is always above the<BR>
same point. Therefore, the geostationary orbit of a tide-locked body is<BR>
at the same distance as its primary. Best of luck putting up any useful<BR>
satellites at that distance....<BR>
	I worked this out when I was designing a tide-locked planet earlier<BR>
(and I came to some different conclusions, and it was a different place<BR>
anyway, but I'm still very interested in how this one gets put<BR>
together). Anyway, I gave the planet two geostationary moons (I figured<BR>
that I might be able to give it a permanent eclipse on its day side),<BR>
and then figured out where the moons were...and it turned out to be at<BR>
the centre of the sun...not an optimal location. Then I checked to see<BR>
if that was the general solution, and it was. Oh well, so much for<BR>
geostationary orbits....<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:29:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/3/00 11:51 AM, tim@premier.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I have finished the first part of my Landgrab project for Forine<BR>
<BR>
Cool deal, looks very nice. There is an image file that is missing though, I<BR>
believe it is the Landgrab Gif. And on the "Forine" page a reference to<BR>
impact creators on Uber you might have meant "craters". I think the named<BR>
character "&ndash" only applies to IE, Netscape user see the name not the<BR>
intended rendering. This element shows up on the history page and perhaps<BR>
elsewhere. On the Culture page you have a few "cant"s that should be<BR>
"can't". The same page has the named entity "&rsquos" that is in the same<BR>
boat as "&ndash". The customs page has an extra "of" in it nestled tight to<BR>
the word "customs" on the first sentence. I hope I am not being too picky<BR>
for you, just trying to help "fine tune". There may be more proof-reading I<BR>
could do, but I'll let you do some fixy-fixy first.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:55:06 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the criticism, I ll take it well for the most part : )<BR>
> <BR>
> > I have finished the first part of my Landgrab project for Forine.<BR>
As most of you have probably noticed by now English is not my <BR>
best skill.  As far as the IE problem goes I thought I got most of <BR>
those out with a find replace, which also explains a few " insteed of '<BR>
And the image problem I have had for awhile, thats why there are no<BR>
H&E maps up.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
 I hope I am not being too picky for you, just trying to help "fine tune". There may be more proof-reading I<BR>
> could do, but I'll let you do some fixy-fixy first.<BR>
> <BR>
> Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
> E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 16:22:47 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, in "Rim of Fire" I do have one world which was settled by Terran<BR>
anachronists.  They found themselves having to fall back on their ancient<BR>
skills and social structures when the Long Night cut them off from the rest<BR>
of the galaxy.<BR>
<BR>
This worked fine until the Solomani Movement brought in high-tech<BR>
colonists. . .<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:29:27 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Minor Human Races<BR>
<BR>
Quoting from T4 page 7 under social science...."Three distinct groups of<BR>
humans(the Vilani, the Solomani, and the Zhodani) have each governed empires<BR>
that span thousands of stars and trillions of citizens. In addition, more<BR>
than a hundred additional human societies are scattered among the stars,<BR>
each is, in its own way, a commentary on the strengths and the particular<BR>
weaknesses of the human condition."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 6:00 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Minor Human Races<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 02:30 PM 6/2/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Does anyone know how widely distributed the Minor Human Races are?<BR>
>>I'm in the process of developing a sector out on the Rimward edge of<BR>
>>Charted Space (beyond the Solomani Confederation), and was wondering<BR>
>>whether or not to plant a couple of Minor Human Races out there.<BR>
>><BR>
>>                                                         - J. Raynor<BR>
>I believe that somewhere in "canon" it is stated that there are 41 human<BR>
>races out there (I can't remember if this does or does not include the<BR>
>major races, but I believe this is the count of minor races).  I did a<BR>
>count at one time and came up with about 35 minor human races, including<BR>
>the "lost" Dynchia, and the Azhanti High Lightning mentioned races.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Jimmy Simpson<BR>
> nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
>"Cannot say.<BR>
>  Saying, I would know.<BR>
>  Do not know.<BR>
>  So cannot say."<BR>
> -Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:27:32 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
> >Are there any races (major/minor) that are basically there for comedic<BR>
value ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I've always thought that the K'kree were there for comic relief.<BR>
Religiously fanitical, militant, vegetariens that might be good while serven<BR>
in a red wine sauce.  I created an arch-enemy for the K'kree, a race of meat<BR>
eating plants that wanted to destroy all plant eaters in the universe.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 16:59:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Authors on their own works<BR>
<BR>
>Though I enjoy Gibson's writings (I own all his major works)  I think<BR>
>Cyper Punk is more then just the technology, but Gibson;s own<BR>
>vision of what an 80's writer in the North West Pacific would see<BR>
>the society.  He like many people believed that Asian (Japanese)<BR>
>culture would dominate the world as the New Dragons economies<BR>
>where.<BR>
><BR>
>However as history has shown this is not the case, at least not<BR>
>yet.  When we talk about Gibson being out of touch with his own<BR>
>works I think we should say that he is out of touch with the<BR>
>present.  This is a major hazard of a futurist.<BR>
><BR>
>Again I enjoy his work, I just think he got it wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps getting the future right was never his intent in the first place.<BR>
Gibson was not, and is not a futurist. He was, and is, a science-fiction<BR>
author. Although from time to time science-fiction authors don "futurist"<BR>
hats (such as Bruce Sterling's recent "Viridian Green" industrial-design and<BR>
fashion movement) a science-fiction author's primary job is to write<BR>
entertaining fiction, thought-provoking fiction or some combination of the<BR>
two. A science-fiction author's job is not that of a "Magic 8-Ball".<BR>
<BR>
A futurist's job is to extrapolate a future based on current trends and to<BR>
advise whoever their audience might be what a useful course of action might<BR>
be. You get people who say things like, "well, this year, China's GNP shot<BR>
up a whopping 1,000,000%. If this trend continues for the next 50 years, and<BR>
America's children keep downloading internet pornography and playing violent<BR>
videogames, America's grandchildren will be making shoes for the Chinese in<BR>
orbital colonies."<BR>
<BR>
A science-fiction author's job is merely to create a future in which an<BR>
interesting story may take place. The story may be interesting because it's<BR>
entertaining, it may be interesting because it's thought provoking, maybe<BR>
it's just aesthetically pleasing or innovative. A sci-fi author doesn't have<BR>
to extrapolate the future beyond what might be required for a plausible<BR>
setting. Science-fiction authors very rarely "get it right" with respect to<BR>
the big picture (but may get it right with respect to individual issues).<BR>
<BR>
In short, if you're expecting your sci-fi authors to be futurists, I suspect<BR>
that you'll be sadly disappointed by the reality of the situation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:43:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 03:27 PM 6/3/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I've always thought that the K'kree were there for comic relief.<BR>
>Religiously fanitical, militant, vegetariens that might be good while serven<BR>
>in a red wine sauce.  I created an arch-enemy for the K'kree, a race of meat<BR>
>eating plants that wanted to destroy all plant eaters in the universe.<BR>
<BR>
Run a campaign in Gateway, and you'll stop laughing.  The K'kree are a very<BR>
serious potential foe.  Sure they might taste good (proabably be a bit<BR>
tough and gamy though) that can be said of *any* animal-based alien.  I've<BR>
eaten dog, so I guess the Vargr are comic-relief puppies that taste *great*<BR>
as part of a Thai dinner.<BR>
<BR>
The thing to rember about the K'kree are that if you are a meat-eater they<BR>
not only see you as a threat, but as the manifestation of their ultimate<BR>
nightmare: a G'naak.  <BR>
<BR>
GDW had a good record of creating alien races with actual motivations and<BR>
cuiltures beyond the sterotypical good alien/bad alien roles.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:30:24 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:46 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Oh -- here's another way to approach the nokkonen/nettles<BR>
> > connection, if there is one.  What's the scientific name<BR>
> > for nokkonen?  I don't know what it is for nettles, but<BR>
> > I'll bet someone else on the list does.<BR>
> <BR>
> I *think* nettles are <something> urtica.<BR>
> <BR>
If I remember correctly we had pollen of nokkonen on our palynology course, and they were urtica, therefore if we both remember correctly  nokkonen=nettles.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:46:11 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Minor Human Races<BR>
<BR>
Talon wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Quoting from T4 page 7 under social science...."Three distinct groups of<BR>
> humans(the Vilani, the Solomani, and the Zhodani) have each governed empires<BR>
> that span thousands of stars and trillions of citizens. In addition, more<BR>
> than a hundred additional human societies are scattered among the stars,<BR>
> each is, in its own way, a commentary on the strengths and the particular<BR>
> weaknesses of the human condition."<BR>
<BR>
Note, however, that the above quote specifically refers to human<BR>
_societies_, rather than races.  For instance, Sword Worlders, while of<BR>
Solomani stock, are certainly members of a different society than their<BR>
Solomani brethren in the Confederation.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:05:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Vote for Your Favorite Classic Traveller Adventure<BR>
<BR>
If you enjoyed any of the original Classic Traveller Adventures, be sure to stop by and vote for your favorite!<BR>
<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
The results of the polling will help us to determine the order in which we will release the electronic reprints of these adventures for use with GRIP. Currently, Twighlight's Peak leads the voting, with Secret of the Ancients following in 2nd place, and the double adventure Annic Nova/Shadows running third. All of the original CT adventures are listed, including the double adventure books. You will only be allowed to vote once.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:19:03 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships OT:<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote,<BR>
>This is possible but unlikely. Moreover unless casualty ratios<BR>
were _extremely_ lopsided than Japan would still have run out<BR>
of materials first.<<BR>
<BR>
That would have been the kicker of course.<BR>
<BR>
>> But why wouldn't Japan have been well fed?<BR>
<BR>
Already answered by others.<<BR>
<BR>
After a week I am second guessing myself, but I believe my intent was that<BR>
without the intelligence gap the Japanese would have been less vulnerable to<BR>
submarine warfare as well allowing them to be much better fed and to have<BR>
sufficient materials for a longer period of time.<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover I am not discussing how much victory would have cost the<BR>
US I am only asserting that, given the relative productivity's<BR>
of the two countries the Americans would (barring a Vietnam type<BR>
scenario) have eventually won.<<BR>
<BR>
it would also have concentrated the fleet and made Japanese interdiction<BR>
much easier. With the island hopping, the Japanese had to protect everything<BR>
and lost it all when they couldn't.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, the Japanese would have secured all the oil reserves of the Dutch<BR>
East Indes without any significant resistance from anyone(one oftheir<BR>
primary objectives in the Pacific).<<BR>
<BR>
I agree with Bruce Johnson.<BR>
<BR>
>However, it could have been a short war.  <<BR>
<BR>
I agree with Robert Snyder.<BR>
<BR>
>Yes, I've gathered that. I just don't agree that sticking to that policy<BR>
was worth the deaths of hundred of thousands of civilians. <<BR>
<BR>
I agree with Hans Rancke.<BR>
<BR>
>I agree, Japan and Germany were effectively isolated by the Allied presence<BR>
in India and North Africa / Middle East. It would take a whole heap of other<BR>
what-if's to explain Japanese Oil shipments to Germany.<<BR>
<BR>
Especially with the other points, I agree with Matthew Bond.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:19:22 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote,<BR>
>Like...? Perhaps I am without imagination at the moment, but I can't<BR>
think of situaion were creativity is _that_ important in a combat<BR>
situation. <<BR>
<BR>
Ambush and infiltration to begin with.<BR>
<BR>
>In a addition, how would creativity help out the defenders in this case?<BR>
And why do you assume that it requires non-robotic creativity to launch<BR>
a sneak attack?<<BR>
<BR>
I would generally assume that most sophonts but especially humans can<BR>
innovate at a faster pace than robots.<BR>
<BR>
>Right, and that is why I put them in the second line, in armoured<BR>
vehicles. Or perhaps even in orbit. <<BR>
<BR>
And now we have communications lag. That could be even better than relying<BR>
on programmed responses.<BR>
<BR>
>Secure area, so to speak. <<BR>
<BR>
Unless you have a truly massive tech superiority, there is no such thing.<BR>
<BR>
>I am not a military historian, but AFAIK, both used some kind of phalanx<BR>
(though the Romans didn't call it that way), which is, lines of soldiers<BR>
with polearms and shields, heavily armoured (for the time). They<BR>
approached in a row of several lines, men from the back lines replacing<BR>
losses in the first and second lines.<<BR>
<BR>
Not exactly. The main differences were the Roman use of Pila and (thrusting)<BR>
Gladius.<BR>
<BR>
>And also AFAIK (still I am no expert in land warfare history), the<BR>
Greeks were not an easy match for the Romans. I may be wrong or<BR>
confusing things here, though. <<BR>
<BR>
Except for Pyrrhus, the Romans rolled over the Greeks quite easily.<BR>
<BR>
>From what I know about Solomani history :-), creativity was mostly<BR>
needed when a new weapon was used by either side, such as Elephants<BR>
against Rome... or tanks in WWI, when they all didn't see the potential,<BR>
initially.<<BR>
<BR>
Not always. Sometimes it was merely a new tactic that required heavy<BR>
adaptation. Look at chess.<BR>
<BR>
>:-) I hoped those canon references would go more into detail. <<BR>
<BR>
Me too. :)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:19:34 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote,<BR>
>Don't forget the immense body of Supreme Court decisions<BR>
that interpret it.  Read a few of those and you won't wonder<BR>
why lawyers charge so much.  But then again, if you're going<BR>
to take the trouble to actually read a bunch of those, you<BR>
might as well go to law school so you can get paid for it<BR>
eventually.<<BR>
<BR>
Yes, those can be fun too. Especially the ones later overturned.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:19:29 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>True you'll run out *eventually*. But check the current issue of<BR>
Scientific American. But don't eat first. It has an article about the<BR>
use of children as young as *5* in not just rebel forces but in<BR>
government backed groups as well. <<BR>
<BR>
I am aware of that. But how far is it from there to genocide becoming the<BR>
"default" strategy in waging war?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:19:41 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long<BR>
<BR>
After a week without email due to a server glitch and tech support<BR>
silliness, I am back.<BR>
Let the games begin!<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds wrote,<BR>
>First both sides used tactical air support on the battlefield, but what I<BR>
think Sam might be looking at is the idea of a Grand tactical bombing.  He<BR>
left this stage out so he has missed it in his arguments.  <<BR>
<BR>
That is an acceptable use of level flying bombers.<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote,<BR>
>I believe that the evidence before D-Day suggests that the 4 engine<BR>
bombers were completely unsuitable for tactical bombing - they just<BR>
couldn't find the targets with their bombs.<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, I don't recall a lot of success from large bombers attacking<BR>
ships in the Pacific.<<BR>
<BR>
A few were marginally useful. I need to go digging for my references first.<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith wrote,<BR>
>2. Getting aircraft into service isn't just, or even<BR>
primarily, a matter of money spent.  This isn't a wargame<BR>
where you decide this turn whether to spend your<BR>
resource points on Lancasters (heavy bombers) or<BR>
Mosquitos (fighter-bombers).  Its a matter of designs<BR>
tested, resources directed, factories tooled, workmen<BR>
trained, crews familiarized.  Do you realize how few of<BR>
the aircraft used during WW2 were even *designed*<BR>
during the war?  <<BR>
<BR>
That doesn't mean you have to expedite production of all your early designs<BR>
just to please industrialists.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote,<BR>
>The problem was not so much of planes, but of pilots.<BR>
The attrition among the airforces of all countries was<BR>
horrific.  Pre D-Day, 60% of USAAF bomber crews<BR>
died before they could complete a 25 mission tour<BR>
(I'm amazed that some completed two or more such<BR>
tours).  Good bombadiers were hard to find, hard to<BR>
train, and difficult to keep alive.<<BR>
<BR>
Which nicely supports my argument against strategic bombing as doing more<BR>
harm to your own people and their morale than the enemies.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:58:44 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
<BR>
Moin Tim,<BR>
<BR>
> > > I have finished the first part of my Landgrab project for Forine.<BR>
> As most of you have probably noticed by now English is not my <BR>
> best skill.<BR>
<BR>
  I like the drawing - I'm a "Kraut" and I always enjoy inviting a lector<BR>
  from this list. I'm used to cite them as 'vilani lector' to be ObTrav ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:05:48 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote,<BR>
> >Don't forget the immense body of Supreme Court decisions<BR>
> that interpret it.  Read a few of those and you won't wonder<BR>
> why lawyers charge so much.  But then again, if you're going<BR>
> to take the trouble to actually read a bunch of those, you<BR>
> might as well go to law school so you can get paid for it<BR>
> eventually.<<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, those can be fun too. Especially the ones later overturned.<BR>
<BR>
Rare as they are.  What is really interesting in the lengths<BR>
they go to so that that avoid actually overturning previous<BR>
cases.  Its all in how you define the dicta.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2546<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (rly-yb03.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.3]) by air-yb03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:02:55 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:02:31 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA99312;<BR>
	Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:01:00 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:00:46 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA99270<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:00:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:00:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006040000.UAA99270@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2546<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2547</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/4/00 4:56:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 4 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2547<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
Re: Vote for Your Favorite Classic Traveller Adventure<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
Re: Rank Titles<BR>
Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
new to the list and found something rather interesting for everyone<BR>
Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Traveller Reprints<BR>
Unsubscribe<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2546<BR>
Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Clothes in the 3I<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:10:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/3/00 12:55 PM, tim@premier.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> And the image problem I have had for awhile, thats why there are no<BR>
> H&E maps up.<BR>
<BR>
Do you mean it isn't just misplaced or misnamed? You are having difficulty<BR>
with images in general? E-mail me privately if you continue having<BR>
difficulties, I /may/ be able to help with a pointer or two. The H&E maps<BR>
would round it out nicely, and doesn't H&E also create orbital digrams?<BR>
<BR>
I think your Landgrab image reference may be to the one on your own hard<BR>
drive rather than the copy on the server.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:30:01 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Vote for Your Favorite Classic Traveller Adventure<BR>
<BR>
Cool beans!  But why aren't more people voting for 'Nomads of the World<BR>
Ocean' or 'Chamax Plague/Horde'.  NotWO is like a contrast-reversed<BR>
version of 'Dune' and CP/H was probably the inspiration for Aliens! :-)<BR>
<BR>
Mind you, I don't mind seeing Twilight's Peak as the next GRIP<BR>
adventure...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:14:26 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote,<BR>
>Rare as they are.  What is really interesting in the lengths<BR>
they go to so that that avoid actually overturning previous<BR>
cases.  Its all in how you define the dicta.<<BR>
<BR>
What really gets to me is some of the nonsense they spew at times. NYC's<BR>
charter had to revised a ways back because (among other things) the Board of<BR>
Estimates had 1 member from each borough. This was judged contrary to the<BR>
principal of "one-man-one-vote"  and so "Un-Constitutional" despite the fact<BR>
that the U.S. Senate operates on a similar principle.<BR>
I am NOT a fan of the Supreme Court.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:17:37 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank Titles<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:22:48 -0700<BR>
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Here is just a little odd Bit.<BR>
><BR>
>The Vilani equivalent to Ensign... => Is Junior officer in charge of the<BR>
condiments.<BR>
<BR>
And hence the proudest moment in a young officer's career when<BR>
passing out of the naval academy standing smartly to attention as<BR>
the academy comandant pins on your bars of position and is the first<BR>
person to address you by your well deserved title of rank...<BR>
<BR>
    Junior Relish Tray Attendant.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:09:49 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dune: the mini series...<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:49:14 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> Paul Atreides Age:- In the books I always pictured Paul as a boy just<BR>
going<BR>
>> through puberty. The first book was about his journey into adulthood. So,<BR>
>> why was Paul played by an actor who was obviously much older than this?<BR>
The<BR>
>> Mini Series version of the film also appears to have this flaw.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, if you dig into the book a bit, I'm pretty sure you'll find<BR>
>that you are *correct* about Paul's age. I'd say 12 or 13.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
from the book Dune by Frank Herbert (page 3)<BR>
<BR>
   "Is he not small for his age, Jessica?" the old woman asked. Her<BR>
  voice wheezed and twanged like an untuned baliset.<BR>
   Paul's mother answered in her soft contralto: "The Atreides are<BR>
  known to start late getting their growth, Your Reverence."<BR>
   "So I've heard, so I've heard," wheezed the old woman. "Yet<BR>
  he's already fifteen."<BR>
<BR>
The ObTrav (assuming Dune isn't defacto on topic) is tangential<BR>
What types of musical instrument exist in the 57th century?<BR>
Balisets, ajitars, others? And would their sounds be distinctive<BR>
enough to serve as descriptors for the voices of NPC's?<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 00:10:07 EDT<BR>
From: XXOmenXXX@aol.com<BR>
Subject: new to the list and found something rather interesting for everyone<BR>
<BR>
SCIENTISTS claim they have broken the ultimate speed barrier: the speed of <BR>
light. <BR>
In research carried out in the United States, particle physicists have shown <BR>
that light pulses can be accelerated to up to 300 times their normal velocity <BR>
of 186,000 miles per second. <BR>
<BR>
The implications, like the speed, are mind-boggling. On one interpretation it <BR>
means that light will arrive at its destination almost before it has started <BR>
its journey. In effect, it is leaping forward in time. <BR>
<BR>
Exact details of the findings remain confidential because they have been <BR>
submitted to Nature, the international scientific journal, for review prior <BR>
to possible publication. <BR>
<BR>
The work was carried out by Dr Lijun Wang, of the NEC research institute in <BR>
Princeton, who transmitted a pulse of light towards a chamber filled with <BR>
specially treated caesium gas. <BR>
<BR>
Before the pulse had fully entered the chamber it had gone right through it <BR>
and travelled a further 60ft across the laboratory. In effect it existed in <BR>
two places at once, a phenomenon that Wang explains by saying it travelled <BR>
300 times faster than light. <BR>
<BR>
The research is already causing controversy among physicists. What bothers <BR>
them is that if light could travel forward in time it could carry <BR>
information. This would breach one of the basic principles in physics - <BR>
causality, which says that a cause must come before an effect. It would also <BR>
shatter Einstein's theory of relativity since it depends in part on the speed <BR>
of light being unbreachable. <BR>
<BR>
This weekend Wang said he could not give details but confirmed: "Our light <BR>
pulses did indeed travel faster than the accepted speed of light. I hope it <BR>
will give us a much better understanding of the nature of light and how it <BR>
behaves." <BR>
<BR>
Dr Raymond Chiao, professor of physics at the University of California at <BR>
Berkeley, who is familiar with Wang's work, said he was impressedby the <BR>
findings. "This is a fascinating experiment," he said. <BR>
<BR>
In Italy, another group of physicists has also succeeded in breaking the <BR>
light speed barrier. In a newly published paper, physicists at the Italian <BR>
National Research Council described how they propagated microwaves at 25% <BR>
above normal light speed. The group speculates that it could be possible to <BR>
transmit information faster than light. <BR>
<BR>
Dr Guenter Nimtz, of Cologne University, an expert in the field, agrees. He <BR>
believes that information can be sent faster than light and last week gave a <BR>
paper describing how it could be done to a conference in Edinburgh. He <BR>
believes, however, that this will not breach the principle of causality <BR>
because the time taken to interpret the signal would fritter away all the <BR>
savings. <BR>
<BR>
"The most likely application for this is not in time travel but in speeding <BR>
up the way signals move through computer circuits," he said. <BR>
<BR>
Wang's experiment is the latest and possibly the most important evidence that <BR>
the physical world may not operate according to any of the accepted <BR>
conventions. <BR>
<BR>
In the new world that modern science is beginning to perceive, sub-atomic <BR>
particles can apparently exist in two places at the same time - making no <BR>
distinction between space and time. <BR>
<BR>
Separate experiments carried out by Chiao illustrate this. He showed that in <BR>
certain circumstances photons - the particles of which light is made - could <BR>
apparently jump between two points separated by a barrier in what appears to <BR>
be zero time. The process, known as tunnelling, has been used to make some of <BR>
the most sensitive electron microscopes. <BR>
<BR>
The implications of Wang's experiments will arouse fierce debate. Many will <BR>
question whether his work can be interpreted as proving that light can exceed <BR>
its normal speed - suggesting that another mechanism may be at work. <BR>
<BR>
Neil Turok, professor of mathematical physics at Cambridge University, said <BR>
he awaited the details with interest, but added: "I doubt this will change <BR>
our view of the fundamental laws of physics." <BR>
<BR>
Wang emphasises that his experiments are relevant only to light and may not <BR>
apply to other physical entities. But scientists are beginning to accept that <BR>
man may eventually exploit some of these characteristics for inter-stellar <BR>
space travel. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:21:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Authenticists (was Re: Oh, that's just great)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, in "Rim of Fire" I do have one world which was settled by Terran<BR>
> anachronists.  They found themselves having to fall back on their ancient<BR>
> skills and social structures when the Long Night cut them off from the rest<BR>
> of the galaxy.<BR>
><BR>
> This worked fine until the Solomani Movement brought in high-tech<BR>
> colonists. . .<BR>
<BR>
I'd be tempted to have them having faithfully kept records of any<BR>
"higher tech" stuff they knew how to make, but didn't have the<BR>
*ability* to make.<BR>
<BR>
In which case, the "low tech" natives may be able to do a lot of<BR>
surprising things with the "harmless" high tech imports they are<BR>
allowed. <BR>
<BR>
And low tech stuff combined with just a *bit* of high tech stuff can<BR>
drive occupying forces *nuts*. <BR>
<BR>
For example, bows, crossbows, and a number of easily built (and<BR>
*abandonable*!) seige weapons can all deliver grenades or large<BR>
imflammable or explosive payloads *without* the loud noises or high IR<BR>
signatures of more modern weapons. <BR>
<BR>
Not *quite* as bad as in Poul Anderson's "The High Crusade", but bad<BR>
enough. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:19:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
ok, for those folks who believe in nice subtle starship designs<BR>
and truth in advertising, the good folks at Maximus Interstellar <BR>
unveil the Lady Sally McGee class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller Ship Data Sheet:<BR>
<BR>
Class Name: Lady Sally McGee<BR>
Type: Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
TL: 12<BR>
Tonnage: 2,000 USL<BR>
Cost: 452.9 MCR<BR>
Mass: 3,494.7 Tons<BR>
DR: 103<BR>
Hit Points: <BR>
Crew: 78+200 passengers<BR>
<BR>
Engineering:<BR>
Jump: 2<BR>
Maneuver: 2.15<BR>
<BR>
Offensive Systems:<BR>
None fitted<BR>
<BR>
Defensive Systems:<BR>
5 Triple Quadpulse PDL Clusters<BR>
5 Triple Sandcasters<BR>
<BR>
Sensors:<BR>
<BR>
Small Craft:<BR>
Shuttle<BR>
Pinnace<BR>
25 short duration Life Boats<BR>
<BR>
Other Features:<BR>
Hardened Basic Bridge<BR>
Backup Engineering Module<BR>
Swimming Pool<BR>
3 Casinos<BR>
5 Bars<BR>
Theatre<BR>
Gymmasium<BR>
25 Function Rooms<BR>
100 Luxury Staterooms<BR>
65 Staterooms<BR>
3 Sick Bays<BR>
119 Tons Cargo<BR>
<BR>
NOTES:<BR>
Designed for House Callahan as the first in a <BR>
fleet of special Luxury Liners<BR>
These ships travel between the stars, providing <BR>
the finest in decadent entertainment for <BR>
discriminating tastes. These ships are popular <BR>
stops for <BR>
Many nobles and media stars, but the liners <BR>
never reveal their guest lists<BR>
And pride themselves on anonymity. <BR>
<BR>
Design Notes:<BR>
Based on a long cylndrical hull with a boxy <BR>
drive section aft, and a bulbous bridge at the <BR>
slightly upcurved nose. <BR>
The Function rooms are used for various fantasy <BR>
settings and or physical recreation of the users <BR>
choice.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:30:31 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Forine<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>   I like the drawing - I'm a "Kraut" and I always enjoy inviting a lector<BR>
>   from this list. I'm used to cite them as 'vilani lector' to be ObTrav ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
I am very glade you liked it and seem not to be to offended by it.  <BR>
While doing it I was thinking about the Wiemar Rep, just as the <BR>
Nazis took over.  Trying to capture the feeling of Romantic Liberals <BR>
vrs militaristic conservatives, that I have seen in alot  writings about <BR>
Germany.  Its also a pre WWI Germany as well.  <BR>
<BR>
Anyways thanks for the good review.  I am still finding those pesky <BR>
IE symbols.  Never copy and past something from Word to Front <BR>
Page...eeekkks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:12:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
<BR>
Heads up for all UK travellers, Outland with Sean Connery is on Channel 5 at<BR>
9pm tonight (Sunday).  If you haven't seen it yet this is a good Traveller<BR>
film, with some excellent setting ideas, an ok plot and some good ideas for<BR>
details on life on a company world.  Enjoy<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:22:52 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
_____Original message_____<BR>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:27:32 -0500<BR>
>From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
<BR>
> >Are there any races (major/minor) that are basically there for comedic<BR>
>>value ?<BR>
<BR>
>I've always thought that the K'kree were there for comic relief.<BR>
>Religiously fanatical, militant, vegetarians that might be good while<BR>
served<BR>
>in a red wine sauce.<BR>
<BR>
I never thought the K'kree were comic relief, just nice to have an ultimate<BR>
enemy, and a well developed and unfamiliar society. I always liked the fact<BR>
that you had a herbivore High Tech society.  They (and the Hivers) are<BR>
excellent examples of getting out of the stereotyped carnivores developed<BR>
technology and spread through desire to conquer more land.  Add in their<BR>
ethical attitudes (destroy planets if necessary etc) and you get a really<BR>
different race.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:31:31 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
Anyone have any idea when the next big floppy book of traveller reprints is<BR>
due out, I've reread the first and really, REALLY can't wait for the second.<BR>
I checked Marc's site this morning and no sign of a date, anyone got any<BR>
ideas??<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 02:26:23 -0600<BR>
From: Dale Gyles <gyles@mtn-webtech.com><BR>
Subject: Unsubscribe<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
I will be going offline for a while, due to a hospital stay.  Nothing<BR>
serious.  I hope to be back soon.<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Dale Gyles<BR>
Black Eagle, MT<BR>
gyles@mtn-webtech.com<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 02:20:54 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
>"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  > In Broadsword it is state that the ruling council<BR>
>  > for the world is composed of military officiers from Vilis.<BR>
><BR>
>Crap!  Now you tell me.  Flush 3 pages of Garda-Vilis<BR>
>writeup.  Oh well, That can fit.<BR>
><BR>
>  > If Vilis government institutions rule<BR>
>  > it and it isn't a multisystem polity, what is the<BR>
>  > defination of the term?<BR>
><BR>
>GV is a special case.  An Imperial military ruling<BR>
>council comprised of officers from Vilis is still<BR>
>an *Imperial* ruling council, albeit a presumably<BR>
>pro-Vilis one.  That's how I read it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't say anything about an _Imperial_ ruling council or<BR>
anything about it local rule by the Imperium.  It does say that<BR>
in -121, "the colony was taken over by the government of Vilis<BR>
to prevent its extinction" and that the only industries on the<BR>
planet are own by the government of Vilis to keep the system<BR>
economically dependant.  It is also the Vilis military that<BR>
is supressing the rebellion with troops on the planet.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperial protectorate<BR>
didn't occur until after the Zhodani and Sword Worlders were<BR>
able to capitalize on the situation during the Fifth Frontier<BR>
War.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 11:42:47 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark S Peace" <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2546<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:14:39 -0400<BR>
>From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
>Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
><BR>
>Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Answers - those I can work out - follow the questions in the body of<BR>
>> the text.<BR>
><BR>
>And a minor comment here on one of your answers....<BR>
><BR>
>> > 2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
>> > year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> Yes there will - geostationary just means it stays in the same<BR>
>> relative position to the surface and that depends on both the rotation<BR>
>> speed of the planet and the gravity. Together, they determine the<BR>
>> distance of the geostationary orbit from the surface. On a tide-locked<BR>
>> planet, it would just be further away than the 23,000 miles it is<BR>
>> around Earth.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, this one isn't right. A geostationary orbit is one where the<BR>
>satellite is always directly above the same point (this is why all<BR>
>geostationary orbits are also equatorial - otherwise the satellite<BR>
>changes its longitudinal position and isn't truly stationary). Now, the<BR>
>whole point of a tide-locked planet is that the sun is always above the<BR>
>same point. Therefore, the geostationary orbit of a tide-locked body is<BR>
>at the same distance as its primary. Best of luck putting up any useful<BR>
>satellites at that distance....<BR>
> I worked this out when I was designing a tide-locked planet earlier<BR>
>(and I came to some different conclusions, and it was a different place<BR>
>anyway, but I'm still very interested in how this one gets put<BR>
>together). Anyway, I gave the planet two geostationary moons (I figured<BR>
>that I might be able to give it a permanent eclipse on its day side),<BR>
>and then figured out where the moons were...and it turned out to be at<BR>
>the centre of the sun...not an optimal location. Then I checked to see<BR>
>if that was the general solution, and it was. Oh well, so much for<BR>
>geostationary orbits....<BR>
><BR>
>- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
The only geostationary points will be the Lagrange points.  L4 and L5 may be<BR>
too far out to be useful but there is one between the planet and star and<BR>
another further out from the star but in line with the planet which could be<BR>
used.  (Can't remeber which are L1, L2 or L3.)  The exact position will<BR>
depend on the relative masses of the star and planet.<BR>
<BR>
L1, L2 and L3 aren't as stable as L4 and L5 would be so your satellite would<BR>
have to make constant adjustments.<BR>
<BR>
Mark.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 11:45:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark S Peace" <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:14:39 -0400<BR>
>From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
>Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
><BR>
>Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Answers - those I can work out - follow the questions in the body of<BR>
>> the text.<BR>
><BR>
>And a minor comment here on one of your answers....<BR>
><BR>
>> > 2. With no rotation (I know, I know, technically one revolution per<BR>
>> > year) there will be no such thing as a geostationary orbit.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> Yes there will - geostationary just means it stays in the same<BR>
>> relative position to the surface and that depends on both the rotation<BR>
>> speed of the planet and the gravity. Together, they determine the<BR>
>> distance of the geostationary orbit from the surface. On a tide-locked<BR>
>> planet, it would just be further away than the 23,000 miles it is<BR>
>> around Earth.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, this one isn't right. A geostationary orbit is one where the<BR>
>satellite is always directly above the same point (this is why all<BR>
>geostationary orbits are also equatorial - otherwise the satellite<BR>
>changes its longitudinal position and isn't truly stationary). Now, the<BR>
>whole point of a tide-locked planet is that the sun is always above the<BR>
>same point. Therefore, the geostationary orbit of a tide-locked body is<BR>
>at the same distance as its primary. Best of luck putting up any useful<BR>
>satellites at that distance....<BR>
> I worked this out when I was designing a tide-locked planet earlier<BR>
>(and I came to some different conclusions, and it was a different place<BR>
>anyway, but I'm still very interested in how this one gets put<BR>
>together). Anyway, I gave the planet two geostationary moons (I figured<BR>
>that I might be able to give it a permanent eclipse on its day side),<BR>
>and then figured out where the moons were...and it turned out to be at<BR>
>the centre of the sun...not an optimal location. Then I checked to see<BR>
>if that was the general solution, and it was. Oh well, so much for<BR>
>geostationary orbits....<BR>
><BR>
>- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
The only geostationary points will be the Lagrange points.  L4 and L5 may be<BR>
<BR>
too far out to be useful but there is one between the planet and star and<BR>
another further out from the star but in line with the planet which could be<BR>
used.  (Can't remeber which are L1, L2 or L3.)  The exact position will<BR>
depend on the relative masses of the star and planet.<BR>
<BR>
L1, L2 and L3 aren't as stable as L4 and L5 would be so your satellite would<BR>
have to make constant adjustments.<BR>
<BR>
Mark.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:04:09 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
Clothing/fashion designers...<BR>
    who are the big names in fashion in the Trav universe/s? This came<BR>
to me watching M:I2...is Armarni the shortend version of a Vilani name?<BR>
<BR>
    'they shot my Armani....<load grenade launcher...blam><BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 07:32:10 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
>Tim Reynolds wrote,<BR>
>>First both sides used tactical air support on the battlefield, but what I<BR>
>>think Sam might be looking at is the idea of a Grand tactical bombing.  He<BR>
>>left this stage out so he has missed it in his arguments.  <<BR>
><BR>
>That is an acceptable use of level flying bombers.<BR>
<BR>
And in the West, by the time ground forces were ready for amphibious invasion,<BR>
the allies had sufficient quantities of *fighter bombers* on hand.  They were<BR>
building them, it just took time to adjust the production pipelines, modify existing <BR>
craft, train the pilots and develop the tactics.<BR>
<BR>
Level bombers can be used for grand tactical bombing, but the collateral damage<BR>
is amazing.  Fighter bombers, if you have enough of them, can give you similar<BR>
results with more precision*.  Remember, the allies were (during Normandy and<BR>
the breakout) liberating allied countries full of civilians.<BR>
<BR>
*Mosquitos were famous for this.  An SS intelligence headquarters between<BR>
a church and a school was one famous bombing target.  Another was a<BR>
prison full of captured French resistance fighters - the Mosquitos hit the <BR>
guard towers and blew out a section of the prison wall, allowing a massive<BR>
prison break.<BR>
<BR>
>>Similarly, I don't recall a lot of success from large bombers attacking<BR>
>>ships in the Pacific.<BR>
><BR>
>A few were marginally useful. I need to go digging for my references first.<BR>
<BR>
They were almost totally useless in this role.  Fighters performing strafing<BR>
attacks did a better job.<BR>
<BR>
The early-model B-17's employed in the Pacific were very good at blowing up<BR>
harbor facilities and airfields, though.<BR>
<BR>
>>Walt Smith:<BR>
>>2. Getting aircraft into service isn't just, or even<BR>
>>primarily, a matter of money spent.  This isn't a wargame<BR>
>>where you decide this turn whether to spend your<BR>
>>resource points on Lancasters (heavy bombers) or<BR>
>>Mosquitos (fighter-bombers).<snip><BR>
><BR>
>That doesn't mean you have to expedite production of all your early designs<BR>
>just to please industrialists.<BR>
<BR>
I think we keep talking past each other here.<BR>
<BR>
The US, compared to almost every other country in the war, had nearly<BR>
limitless resources.  The major limitation on production was *efficiency*.<BR>
Keeping every factory running night and day.<BR>
<BR>
Compare time taken to retool a factory and retrain it's workers with time<BR>
taken to build *another* factory* and train new workers.  It would take marginally<BR>
less time to retool - but if you build new and train new, you get the full<BR>
production of the old factory while prepping the new one, *and you get to <BR>
keep getting the output of the old factory*!!<BR>
<BR>
*Remember, the US was never under serious attack during this war.  While<BR>
some effort was made to conceal locations of critical factories, there was<BR>
no need to put these factories in sturdy, or even durable buildings.  A tin-roofed<BR>
wood-frame building with plywood siding could house a factory just as well<BR>
as a cement or brick building could, and could be built in a matter of days.<BR>
<BR>
Wartime economics and production are a very special case of normal<BR>
economics and production, with some very special rules.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:00:31 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The Imperial protectorate<BR>
> didn't occur until after the Zhodani and Sword Worlders were<BR>
> able to capitalize on the situation during the Fifth Frontier<BR>
> War.<BR>
<BR>
Then what period is Broadsword referring to?  Before or<BR>
after the 5FW?  If after, it seems to be in conflict with other<BR>
canon.  If before, then it is merely out of date.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2547<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 07:56:43 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 07:56:26 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id HAA25502;<BR>
	Sun, 4 Jun 2000 07:55:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 4 Jun 2000 07:55:32 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id HAA25470<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 07:55:32 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 07:55:32 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006041155.HAA25470@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2547<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2548</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/4/00 1:01:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 4 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2548<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Forine<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
The Speed Of Light(was: new to the list and ...)<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: The Speed Of Light(was: new to the list and ...)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Strategic economics<BR>
Really fast fighters<BR>
Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
Email address change<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Forine<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Screamera(wasRe: Milibots)<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:59:10 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Forine<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I have finished the first part of my Landgrab project for Forine<BR>
> <BR>
>Go to <BR>
> <BR>
>http://www.premier.net/~tim/landgrab/introduc.htm<BR>
> <BR>
>and take a look at the site.<BR>
 <BR>
Since I'm working on a writeup of Forine for submission to JTAS Online, I<BR>
think I'd better wait until I've finished that to go have a look.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their<BR>
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"<BR>
                                (after Tom Lehrer)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:24:27 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@gno.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Hi Sam! <BR>
<BR>
samwise1 schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote,<BR>
> >Like...? Perhaps I am without imagination at the moment, but I can't<BR>
> think of situaion were creativity is _that_ important in a combat<BR>
> situation. <<BR>
> <BR>
> Ambush and infiltration to begin with.<BR>
<BR>
Infiltration, okay. But I don't accept ambush. Those are standard<BR>
tactics. And infiltration is not _that_ common in wartime. A soldier<BR>
that can't infiltrate (and thus are most of them) is far from being<BR>
worthless.<BR>
 <BR>
> >In a addition, how would creativity help out the defenders in this case?<BR>
> And why do you assume that it requires non-robotic creativity to launch<BR>
> a sneak attack?<<BR>
> <BR>
> I would generally assume that most sophonts but especially humans can<BR>
> innovate at a faster pace than robots.<BR>
<BR>
Well. robots probably ca't innovate at all. What I mean is: I don't tink<BR>
that innovation is that necessary for the average trooper. Of course,<BR>
tactical and strategic command positions would still have to be filled<BR>
with either sophonts or special neural-net brain robots (which would<BR>
admittedly be not as useful, speaking of Traveller tech).<BR>
 <BR>
> >Right, and that is why I put them in the second line, in armoured<BR>
> vehicles. Or perhaps even in orbit. <<BR>
> <BR>
> And now we have communications lag. That could be even better than relying<BR>
> on programmed responses.<BR>
<BR>
The comm lag of a distance of 300 km is negligible, I'd say.<BR>
 <BR>
> >Secure area, so to speak. <<BR>
> <BR>
> Unless you have a truly massive tech superiority, there is no such thing.<BR>
<BR>
:-) That's why I wrote "so to speak".<BR>
 <BR>
> Not exactly. The main differences were the Roman use of Pila and (thrusting)<BR>
> Gladius.<BR>
<BR>
So it was new technology ? ;-)<BR>
 <BR>
> >From what I know about Solomani history :-), creativity was mostly<BR>
> needed when a new weapon was used by either side, such as Elephants<BR>
> against Rome... or tanks in WWI, when they all didn't see the potential,<BR>
> initially.<<BR>
> <BR>
> Not always. Sometimes it was merely a new tactic that required heavy<BR>
> adaptation. Look at chess.<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes. Okay, but as a rule, a robot could have done the job of an<BR>
average foot soldier, AFAIK.<BR>
 <BR>
> >:-) I hoped those canon references would go more into detail. <<BR>
> <BR>
> Me too. :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:24:49 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@gno.de><BR>
Subject: The Speed Of Light(was: new to the list and ...)<BR>
<BR>
XXOmenXXX@aol.com schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> SCIENTISTS claim they have broken the ultimate speed barrier: the speed of<BR>
> light.<BR>
<BR>
I have never understood why Einstein thought it was an absolute barrier.<BR>
<BR>
> Wang emphasises that his experiments are relevant only to light and may not<BR>
> apply to other physical entities. But scientists are beginning to accept that<BR>
> man may eventually exploit some of these characteristics for inter-stellar<BR>
> space travel.<BR>
<BR>
So what comes next? Warp drive?<BR>
<BR>
Oh, no... I see Traveller dying...<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:21:46 -0000<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for quoting the whole message here but it all falls into place for my<BR>
point. I would like to recommend a movie called "Screamers" to see an<BR>
example of robotic infiltration. I got some excellent ideas from the movie<BR>
and have watched it 4 or 5 times. I always enjoy it! I won't give away the<BR>
details but I assure it is worth the rental fee. I just ordered it on DVD as<BR>
a matter of fact. It isn't an exact match to our scenario below but it is<BR>
excellent in an SF fun sorta way.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Ingo.Heinscher@gno.de><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 1:24 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hi Sam!<BR>
><BR>
> samwise1 schrieb:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ingo Heinscher wrote,<BR>
> > >Like...? Perhaps I am without imagination at the moment, but I can't<BR>
> > think of situaion were creativity is _that_ important in a combat<BR>
> > situation. <<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ambush and infiltration to begin with.<BR>
><BR>
> Infiltration, okay. But I don't accept ambush. Those are standard<BR>
> tactics. And infiltration is not _that_ common in wartime. A soldier<BR>
> that can't infiltrate (and thus are most of them) is far from being<BR>
> worthless.<BR>
><BR>
> > >In a addition, how would creativity help out the defenders in this<BR>
case?<BR>
> > And why do you assume that it requires non-robotic creativity to launch<BR>
> > a sneak attack?<<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I would generally assume that most sophonts but especially humans can<BR>
> > innovate at a faster pace than robots.<BR>
><BR>
> Well. robots probably ca't innovate at all. What I mean is: I don't tink<BR>
> that innovation is that necessary for the average trooper. Of course,<BR>
> tactical and strategic command positions would still have to be filled<BR>
> with either sophonts or special neural-net brain robots (which would<BR>
> admittedly be not as useful, speaking of Traveller tech).<BR>
><BR>
> > >Right, and that is why I put them in the second line, in armoured<BR>
> > vehicles. Or perhaps even in orbit. <<BR>
> ><BR>
> > And now we have communications lag. That could be even better than<BR>
relying<BR>
> > on programmed responses.<BR>
><BR>
> The comm lag of a distance of 300 km is negligible, I'd say.<BR>
><BR>
> > >Secure area, so to speak. <<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Unless you have a truly massive tech superiority, there is no such<BR>
thing.<BR>
><BR>
> :-) That's why I wrote "so to speak".<BR>
><BR>
> > Not exactly. The main differences were the Roman use of Pila and<BR>
(thrusting)<BR>
> > Gladius.<BR>
><BR>
> So it was new technology ? ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> > >From what I know about Solomani history :-), creativity was mostly<BR>
> > needed when a new weapon was used by either side, such as Elephants<BR>
> > against Rome... or tanks in WWI, when they all didn't see the potential,<BR>
> > initially.<<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Not always. Sometimes it was merely a new tactic that required heavy<BR>
> > adaptation. Look at chess.<BR>
><BR>
> Sometimes. Okay, but as a rule, a robot could have done the job of an<BR>
> average foot soldier, AFAIK.<BR>
><BR>
> > >:-) I hoped those canon references would go more into detail. <<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Me too. :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Sam<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> CU,<BR>
> Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 10:04:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Speed Of Light(was: new to the list and ...)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@gno.de><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:34 AM<BR>
Subject: The Speed Of Light(was: new to the list and ...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>XXOmenXXX@aol.com schrieb:<BR>
>><BR>
>> SCIENTISTS claim they have broken the ultimate speed barrier: the speed<BR>
of<BR>
>> light.<BR>
><BR>
>I have never understood why Einstein thought it was an absolute barrier.<BR>
><BR>
>> Wang emphasises that his experiments are relevant only to light and may<BR>
not<BR>
>> apply to other physical entities. But scientists are beginning to accept<BR>
that<BR>
>> man may eventually exploit some of these characteristics for<BR>
inter-stellar<BR>
>> space travel.<BR>
><BR>
>So what comes next? Warp drive?<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, no... I see Traveller dying...<BR>
>:-)<BR>
><BR>
>CU,<BR>
>Ingo<BR>
<BR>
This sounds more like Jump Drive technology to me, with the "tunneling"<BR>
effect.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:52:57 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>*Mosquitos were famous for this.  An SS intelligence headquarters between<BR>
>a church and a school was one famous bombing target. <BR>
<BR>
  IIRC, they did level the school (dozens dead) - but they did get the <BR>
files in the target facility, too.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: in the 3I, the media aren't the enemy, as time lag has largely<BR>
negated their impact on distant political centers (and where the _real_<BR>
decisions can be made independent of mass opinion). In any case, tools<BR>
such as dis-information, suppression, and fakery remain highly viable.<BR>
<BR>
  Or at least they assume the above...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:52:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
At 01:19 AM 6/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>ok, for those folks who believe in nice subtle starship designs<BR>
>and truth in advertising, the good folks at Maximus Interstellar <BR>
>unveil the Lady Sally McGee class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
Oh, my...   Just imagine a fight between this ship and one owned by Louisa<BR>
Dem-Five of the Velvet Fist (Buck Godot).<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to write so new rules to cover the boarding action in ACQ.<BR>
Gosh-darn, that means I'll have to do some more research. :P<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Penguin Boy,  Righter of wrongs, hero to millions, &<BR>
friend to Flash Gordon."   - Legate Legion on the TML<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 09:06:09<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:24 PM 6/4/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Infiltration, okay. But I don't accept ambush. Those are standard<BR>
>tactics. And infiltration is not _that_ common in wartime. A soldier<BR>
>that can't infiltrate (and thus are most of them) is far from being<BR>
>worthless.<BR>
<BR>
Ambushes are all the same, except for the fact that each one os different. :)<BR>
<BR>
The soldier in charge of the ambush has to judge each potential target in<BR>
the kill zone.  How many? How well armed?  Are they a worthwhile target?<BR>
Is there another group outside the kill zone that could respond quickly?<BR>
How do the targets look?  Are they alert and ready, or half-asleep?  Have<BR>
you been sent to target a specific group, and is this that group?<BR>
<BR>
Once the ambush starts, you have to work very hard to manage it.  How is<BR>
the enemy reacting?  Are they doing what you expected, or are they<BR>
manuvering against your positions? Is somebody trying to be a hero by<BR>
leading a charge?<BR>
<BR>
Infiltration is the same thing.. thousands of decisions points that require<BR>
intuition not logic.<BR>
<BR>
>Well. robots probably ca't innovate at all. What I mean is: I don't tink<BR>
>that innovation is that necessary for the average trooper. Of course,<BR>
>tactical and strategic command positions would still have to be filled<BR>
>with either sophonts or special neural-net brain robots (which would<BR>
>admittedly be not as useful, speaking of Traveller tech).<BR>
<BR>
Each and every soldier on the battlefield has to think.  Not only do you<BR>
have to respond to orders, you have to be aware of the fire team's LMG, the<BR>
other team's movements, your own targets, and pick out covered and<BR>
concealed positions no more than five seconds from your current position.<BR>
Nobody can tell you where to go each and everytime you move.  You might get<BR>
a yelled "Berry, Greene; get over to that fence and pin them down!"  But<BR>
getting to that fence requires that the individual soldiers have the skill<BR>
and intuition to do it without getting killed.<BR>
<BR>
>Sometimes. Okay, but as a rule, a robot could have done the job of an<BR>
>average foot soldier, AFAIK.<BR>
<BR>
Not past 1918.  <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 11:45:49 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 11:25 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Well. robots probably ca't innovate at all. What I mean is: I don't tink<BR>
>>that innovation is that necessary for the average trooper. Of course,<BR>
>>tactical and strategic command positions would still have to be filled<BR>
>>with either sophonts or special neural-net brain robots (which would<BR>
>>admittedly be not as useful, speaking of Traveller tech).<BR>
><BR>
>Each and every soldier on the battlefield has to think.  Not only do you<BR>
>have to respond to orders, you have to be aware of the fire team's LMG, the<BR>
>other team's movements, your own targets, and pick out covered and<BR>
>concealed positions no more than five seconds from your current position.<BR>
>Nobody can tell you where to go each and everytime you move.  You might get<BR>
>a yelled "Berry, Greene; get over to that fence and pin them down!"  But<BR>
>getting to that fence requires that the individual soldiers have the skill<BR>
>and intuition to do it without getting killed.<BR>
><BR>
>>Sometimes. Okay, but as a rule, a robot could have done the job of an<BR>
>>average foot soldier, AFAIK.<BR>
><BR>
>Not past 1918.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
IMHO robots will be able to have some pretty sophisticated AI subroutines by<BR>
then, that's just from  extrapolating out the AI that are being developed<BR>
now for some of the first person shooters and RT strategy games, they are<BR>
getting better and more realistic all the time.  I think they would be able<BR>
to asses situations and determine the best course of action, especially with<BR>
detailed goals.  They may not be very creative but certainly effective.<BR>
<BR>
Just my Cr5 worth.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
BTW my ICQ is 75261608<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 09:54:16 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>>>2. Getting aircraft into service isn't just, or even<BR>
>>>primarily, a matter of money spent.  This isn't a wargame<BR>
>>>where you decide this turn whether to spend your<BR>
>>>resource points on Lancasters (heavy bombers) or<BR>
>>>Mosquitos (fighter-bombers).<snip><BR>
>><BR>
>>That doesn't mean you have to expedite production of all your early designs<BR>
>>just to please industrialists.<BR>
...<BR>
>The US, compared to almost every other country in the war, had nearly<BR>
>limitless resources.  The major limitation on production was *efficiency*.<BR>
>Keeping every factory running night and day.<BR>
<BR>
  There was an interesting article on WW2 aircraft economics a couple<BR>
years ago in JMH; ISTR the point being made that while the US policy <BR>
maximized quantity production, it would have been a much less useful<BR>
approach if the specialty units (and this applies to tanks, too) had<BR>
not been being designed and produced elsewhere. There's a good case<BR>
to be made that the UK's production of lots of different designs (and<BR>
many of them also high-end, rather than "just" specialized) was really<BR>
an expression of the strengths of the industry created by the policies<BR>
of defense purchasing in the `30's - smallish orders from multiple<BR>
vendors with lots of design expertise.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: the 3I is usually seen as being both the biggest _and_ brightest<BR>
society around (although the latter could just be the Hivers letting them<BR>
get complacent :> ), but the evidence isn't clear. It can also be more<BR>
interesting to simply not have the beliefs be strictly accurate :)<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:43:34 CEST<BR>
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Really fast fighters<BR>
<BR>
>Leonard Erickson wrote<BR>
>And I'm still waiting for someone to design a fighter that *uses* that<BR>
>"hours at 4 g"<BR>
<BR>
My THUDDD 12 (built with FF&S2) entry uses 10 G fighters, that I designed a <BR>
year or so ago, for reconnaissance. This was the highest accelleration I <BR>
felt I could justify at the time with G-tanks and 6 Gs of G-comp. 3 Gs on <BR>
your back should be doable but the G-tanks probably should compensate for <BR>
more than just one G.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.csd.uu.se/~it97pah/trav/frames.html<BR>
<BR>
or for a direct link<BR>
<BR>
http://www.csd.uu.se/~it97pah/trav/ships/9dt_recon.html<BR>
<BR>
Patrik Holmstrm<BR>
Head designer for Dimashq Starships<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:55:02 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
Oops, I forgot to mention two of the "Function Rooms" are outfitted <BR>
as fully functional brigs..<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:18:31 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 4 Jun 2000 07:55:32 -0400 (EDT), "samwise1"<BR>
<samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Steve Daniels wrote,<BR>
>>Rare as they are.  What is really interesting in the lengths<BR>
>they go to so that that avoid actually overturning previous<BR>
>cases.  Its all in how you define the dicta.<<BR>
<BR>
>What really gets to me is some of the nonsense they spew at times. NYC's<BR>
>charter had to revised a ways back because (among other things) the Board of<BR>
>Estimates had 1 member from each borough. This was judged contrary to the<BR>
>principal of "one-man-one-vote"  and so "Un-Constitutional" despite the fact<BR>
>that the U.S. Senate operates on a similar principle.<BR>
>I am NOT a fan of the Supreme Court.<BR>
<BR>
The difference is that there was no second legislative body in<BR>
NYC that was weighted by population - no equivalent to the House<BR>
of Representatives, IOW.  The net result was a strong bias in the<BR>
BoE toward Manhattan and Staten Island, with the rest of the city<BR>
often getting shafted.  There has been a lot more outer-boroughs<BR>
development since the revision than there was for quite some time<BR>
before it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:57:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Email address change<BR>
<BR>
Please note that my BT internet address will be closed on Wednesday next<BR>
week, i will be using just my Freeserve address (details in sig file).<BR>
Sorry for waste of bandwidth, but I've suffered major problems previously<BR>
from Email address changes.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
The conquest of space is facing two major problems: gravity and red tape.<BR>
We could have managed gravity<BR>
        Werner von Braun<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 14:16:03 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Forine<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> >I have finished the first part of my Landgrab project for Forine<BR>
> > <BR>
> Since I'm working on a writeup of Forine for submission to JTAS <BR>
>Online, I<BR>
> think I'd better wait until I've finished that to go have a look.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Can we say opps.  I hope you like it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:08:33 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@gno.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry schrieb:<BR>
 <BR>
> Infiltration is the same thing.. thousands of decisions points that require<BR>
> intuition not logic.<BR>
<BR>
Ahm... IMHO what you mean is luck. "Intuition" IMHO is merely<BR>
sub-conscious thinking, and based on processes of the human brain that<BR>
developed in our evolutionary history.  If this subconsious thinking is<BR>
succesful, the survivor remembers it as "I just knew where to go". If<BR>
not, there is no survivor who can tell that his "intuition" told him to<BR>
run into that direction. As usual, YMMV.<BR>
 <BR>
Anyway, all the questions that you mentioned that a soldier has to<BR>
answer while doing his/her/its job can be answered based on logic. If<BR>
the milibot has the AI that Traveller permits, it can judge a situation,<BR>
and act accordingly as long as it has not to make up new ideas (and<BR>
ambushing a bunch of soldiers asleep or not asleep would be one of the<BR>
myriads of standard situations programmed in, IMHO). The point is that<BR>
non-standard situations are fairly rare on the battlefield, except when<BR>
new technology is involved. That is why experience is much more valued<BR>
by modern military than talent.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> Each and every soldier on the battlefield has to think.  <BR>
<BR>
No doubt, but very few of them have to be creative masterminds, don't<BR>
you aggree? I mean, we call it Artificial Intelligence, because some<BR>
thinking takes place.<BR>
<BR>
> Not only do you<BR>
> have to respond to orders, you have to be aware of the fire team's LMG, the<BR>
> other team's movements, your own targets, and pick out covered and<BR>
> concealed positions no more than five seconds from your current position.<BR>
> Nobody can tell you where to go each and everytime you move.  You might get<BR>
> a yelled "Berry, Greene; get over to that fence and pin them down!"  But<BR>
> getting to that fence requires that the individual soldiers have the skill<BR>
> and intuition to do it without getting killed.<BR>
<BR>
Skill is a program in the milibot's brain. On intuition, see above.<BR>
 <BR>
> >Sometimes. Okay, but as a rule, a robot could have done the job of an<BR>
> >average foot soldier, AFAIK.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not past 1918.<BR>
<BR>
Especially since 1918. Modern weapons make creative thinking<BR>
increasingly unneccesary (for the troopers, that is. Command personnel,<BR>
technicians and the like are a different thing.). Having the right<BR>
equipment becomes increasingly vital in modern warfare, thus others<BR>
factors cease in relative importance.<BR>
<BR>
But this is all far too abstract to be useful, so let's take an example:<BR>
<BR>
Scenario:<BR>
<BR>
Tropical rain forest area, flat land(no hills). <BR>
<BR>
Side A:<BR>
30 Human soldiers plus 1 command position (say, an experienced NCO).<BR>
IR vision equipment, radio comm equipment, 5.56 mm assault rifles, 240<BR>
shots of ammo per soldier. Light armour for certain vital organs<BR>
(helmets, especially). Enough food for an time, since it's an organic<BR>
environment.<BR>
Mission: Patrol. Destroy all encountered enemy units. No air support or<BR>
artillery available. Return when losses make continuing the operation<BR>
too difficult (NCO's decision).<BR>
<BR>
Side B:<BR>
30 Daimler-Chrysler 205a Milibots(Imagine a four-legged metal bug with<BR>
the rifle mounted on the back. No, this is not an real world design...<BR>
yet.:-)) plus 1 command position (again, let it be an experienced NCO). <BR>
IR vision equipment, radio comm equipment, 5.56 mm assault rilfe, 240<BR>
shots of ammo per unit. Light armour for certain vital parts of the<BR>
units.(Comparable to a helmet). Robots have enough juice for 48 hours of<BR>
operation.<BR>
Mission: Patrol. Destroy all encountered enemy units. No air support or<BR>
artillery available. Return after 36 hours.<BR>
<BR>
Situation:<BR>
Side A and Side B detect each other at 1300 hours somewhere in the<BR>
forest at a distance of 200 meters. (600 ft./185.2 yards). No benefits<BR>
of surprise for any side. <BR>
<BR>
What will happen?<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, they will start to shoot at each other, perhaps trying to<BR>
circumvent (exp?) each other or use other standard tactics.<BR>
<BR>
The main problem for the side B commander would be giving orders to his<BR>
"subordinates", using predefined keywords(or perhaps an arm-mounted<BR>
mini-PDA with a touchscreen to show intended maneuvers). <BR>
<BR>
The milibots won't have any problem to figure out the enemy's position<BR>
(they could even triangulate it), and using trees as sight cover or<BR>
perhaps as fire cover isn't that innovative. It computes down on who<BR>
shoots better. The effects of damage are radically different, though.<BR>
While side A will suffer a slight decrease in morale with every minor<BR>
wound, they won't even hear when they hit the enemy. (No screams, no<BR>
crying.)<BR>
<BR>
I can't see at all where creative thinking is required here. Thinking,<BR>
yes, but if carried out fast enough (for which computer brains are<BR>
known), deterministic thinking can do anything that is necessary for an<BR>
average milibot or trooper in the above situation.<BR>
<BR>
Or is there anyone with combat experience out there on the list who can<BR>
show me the "creative" part?<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:10:19 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@gno.de><BR>
Subject: Screamera(wasRe: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris schrieb:<BR>
 <BR>
> Sorry for quoting the whole message here but it all falls into place for my<BR>
> point. I would like to recommend a movie called "Screamers" to see an<BR>
> example of robotic infiltration. I got some excellent ideas from the movie<BR>
> and have watched it 4 or 5 times. I always enjoy it! I won't give away the<BR>
> details but I assure it is worth the rental fee. I just ordered it on DVD as<BR>
> a matter of fact. It isn't an exact match to our scenario below but it is<BR>
> excellent in an SF fun sorta way.<BR>
<BR>
I know that movie, too, but the AI presented there is IMHO far beyond<BR>
the ability of Traveller robotics. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:59:24 -500<BR>
From: jeffb@ebtech.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
Why would they go to Barnard's Star when there are more likely <BR>
stars in the other direction.  Remember its a red dwarf that is <BR>
unlikely to have habitable planets competing with the Alpha <BR>
Centauri group.  Its likely Barnard's was left until there were <BR>
resources available to make what was mainly a scientific trip.  <BR>
Look how long it took to get to the north and south poles vs how <BR>
long it took to get to China after trans oceanic seafaring took off as <BR>
a technology.<BR>
<BR>
> > 	From our prior discussions, it seems pretty clear that you<BR>
> > *can* jump from a system to empty space and from empty space to<BR>
> > another system provided you have sufficient fuel.  Given that,<BR>
> > why did it take 43 years for the TERRANS to reach Barnard's star<BR>
> > after they discovered Jump drive?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2548<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:01:01 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:00:20 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA43737;<BR>
	Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:59:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:58:43 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA43676<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:58:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:58:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006041958.PAA43676@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2548<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2549</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/4/00 3:18:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 4 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2549<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
Re: The Speed Of Light(was: new to the list and ...)<BR>
Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Military Robots<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:39:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> IMHO robots will be able to have some pretty sophisticated AI subroutines by<BR>
> then, that's just from  extrapolating out the AI that are being developed<BR>
> now for some of the first person shooters and RT strategy games, they are<BR>
> getting better and more realistic all the time.  I think they would be able<BR>
> to asses situations and determine the best course of action, especially with<BR>
> detailed goals.  They may not be very creative but certainly effective.<BR>
<BR>
If they aren't creative, then I can buy a unit (or otherwise acquire<BR>
its programming) and run some tests. Then I'll *know* what its<BR>
"brothers" will do in a given combat situation.<BR>
<BR>
That'd be *real* bad for anybody using them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:41:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well. robots probably ca't innovate at all. What I mean is: I don't tink<BR>
> that innovation is that necessary for the average trooper. Of course,<BR>
> tactical and strategic command positions would still have to be filled<BR>
> with either sophonts or special neural-net brain robots (which would<BR>
> admittedly be not as useful, speaking of Traveller tech).<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that the very flexibility of neural nets is why they<BR>
*aren't* used for many things. Because except for very simple ones, you<BR>
can't be *certain* what they'll do in situations that haven't been<BR>
tested. Even *varaitions* on tested situations can produce unexpected<BR>
results. <BR>
<BR>
Considering that at least as much training of *soldiers* is related to<BR>
getting them to obey orders consistently as to teaching them new<BR>
things, I suspect that neural net processors are a bit too "wildcard"<BR>
for battlefield use. <BR>
<BR>
Remember, they won't have had evolution and predation wiping out the<BR>
truly *stupid* responses that can lie hidden in the recesses of a<BR>
neural net. There's no "common sense" as a override for impulses.<BR>
<BR>
>> >Right, and that is why I put them in the second line, in armoured<BR>
>> vehicles. Or perhaps even in orbit. <<BR>
>> <BR>
>> And now we have communications lag. That could be even better than relying<BR>
>> on programmed responses.<BR>
><BR>
> The comm lag of a distance of 300 km is negligible, I'd say.<BR>
<BR>
You are at 300 km for a very short period during any given orbit. And<BR>
much of the time you won't even be above the horizon. And there will be<BR>
many orbits where you don't even have line of sight on the area (unless<BR>
you are in an equatorial orbit and the area isn't far from the equator,<BR>
too far north or south and the angle is too steep for such a low orbit). <BR>
<BR>
Using relays in the same orbit makes the max distance for Earth around<BR>
20,000 km. Using geosynch orbit makes the distance 37,000 km. <BR>
<BR>
Now keep in mind that lag is *double* the distance, because pictures or<BR>
sensor reading have to go from the ground up to you, and then the<BR>
orders for the response come back down, thus *two* trips.<BR>
<BR>
Lightspeed is roughly 300,000 km/sec. So we are talking about lags of<BR>
over 1/10th of a second! That's enough to make any sort of "direct"<BR>
control in combat pretty useless. All you can do is give general<BR>
directives. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:02:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ok, for those folks who believe in nice subtle starship designs<BR>
> and truth in advertising, the good folks at Maximus Interstellar <BR>
> unveil the Lady Sally McGee class Pleasure Liner<BR>
><BR>
> GURPS Traveller Ship Data Sheet:<BR>
><BR>
> Class Name: Lady Sally McGee<BR>
> Type: Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
> Offensive Systems:<BR>
> None fitted<BR>
<BR>
I bet the folks on the more "straight-laced" worlds would find *many*<BR>
of the systems on the ship "offensive". :-)<BR>
<BR>
> 3 Casinos<BR>
> 5 Bars<BR>
> Theatre<BR>
> 25 Function Rooms<BR>
<BR>
See!<BR>
<BR>
(For those who don't understand how a "Function Room" can be<BR>
objectionable, read "Callahan's Lady" and "Lady Slings the Booze". Pay<BR>
special attention to Mistress Cynthia's "function room" :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Design Notes:<BR>
> Based on a long cylndrical hull with a boxy <BR>
> drive section aft, and a bulbous bridge at the <BR>
> slightly upcurved nose. <BR>
<BR>
What? I'm ammazed that the drive section isn't a pair of spherical<BR>
subhulls... :-)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, you've *got* to post this on alt.callahans. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:08:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Oops, I forgot to mention two of the "Function Rooms" are outfitted <BR>
> as fully functional brigs..<BR>
<BR>
Another place you might want to send the design is to Spider...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:11:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Heads up for all UK travellers, Outland with Sean Connery is on Channel 5 at<BR>
> 9pm tonight (Sunday).  If you haven't seen it yet this is a good Traveller<BR>
> film, with some excellent setting ideas, an ok plot and some good ideas for<BR>
> details on life on a company world.  Enjoy<BR>
<BR>
Just ignore the gory "vacuum exposure" shots, as they are pure BS.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:22:33 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/4/00 3:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jeffb@ebtech.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Why would they go to Barnard's Star when there are more likely <BR>
>  stars in the other direction.  Remember its a red dwarf that is <BR>
>  unlikely to have habitable planets competing with the Alpha <BR>
>  Centauri group.  Its likely Barnard's was left until there were <BR>
>  resources available to make what was mainly a scientific trip.  <BR>
>  Look how long it took to get to the north and south poles vs how <BR>
>  long it took to get to China after trans oceanic seafaring took off as <BR>
>  a technology.<BR>
<BR>
In "Rim of Fire" we established a possible reason for the Barnard's<BR>
Star trip.  Alpha Centauri had already been the target for one of the<BR>
European STL colonization probes.  At the time of the first FTL<BR>
expedition news was expected from the new colony at any time.  As<BR>
a matter of national pride, the Americans planning the expedition<BR>
didn't want to just play messenger for the Prometheus colonists. . .<BR>
<BR>
(Another possible reason: deep-space telescopes may have revealed<BR>
the "jump flashes" of starships entering and leaving the Barnard's Star<BR>
system. Once Terrans had the jump drive it would have been natural<BR>
to look for such things in nearby star systems.  Maybe the US knew<BR>
ahead of time that it would find something astonishing at Barnard's<BR>
Star.)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:43:53 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
At 7:51 -0400 26/5/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<Origination: Wirral, Terra/Solomani Rim Jump Lag 1 week><BR>
<BR>
>  FWIW, the 7th Sea _game_ appears (IMHO: YMMV) to be both over-priced<BR>
>and under-designed; it's perhaps unfortunate that the background isn't<BR>
>available separately.<BR>
<BR>
Overpriced I'd agree with - I suspect that they had enough material <BR>
for about 375 pages (1 and a half books of the size they had printed) <BR>
and didn't know how to cut it to a single volume. In the UK it's 20 <BR>
GBP for a single book (unless you cut a deal with your local FLGS <BR>
which I did). It is steep, but I liked the system, especially when <BR>
they actually put a probability table in the GM guide. It's pretty <BR>
much Lot5R, which is a pretty fun system.<BR>
<BR>
The presentation of it *is* superb though, and T5's publishers should <BR>
look at this, and material like Delta Green as a standard I'd like to <BR>
see, rather than T4's. Of course, I'd like a feel like MT in layout <BR>
with a hint of GT: Starports...<BR>
<BR>
>For people who really want the higher-tech stuff<BR>
>go for either Castle Falken-whatever or your favourite flavour of GURPS -<BR>
>low-fantasy or low-tech people should consider either "Gemini", or<BR>
>Hogshead Publishings WFRP - both of which are substantially cheaper, as<BR>
>all game info (including world background!) is in a single largish book.<BR>
<BR>
Fair point, but the WFRP system is IMO worse than 7th Sea by a long way.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:46:27 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
At 7:51 -0400 26/5/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<Response Origination: Wirral, Terra/Solomani Rim - Jump Lag 1 week><BR>
<BR>
> >Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than<BR>
> >just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do<BR>
> >mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
><BR>
>  IIRC, it's written by someone with what might be described as, uhm,<BR>
>"interesting" ideas about conspiracies targetting his computers?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Go on, then, or are you going to leave it hanging?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:01:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
At 04:22 PM 6/4/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>(Another possible reason: deep-space telescopes may have revealed<BR>
>the "jump flashes" of starships entering and leaving the Barnard's Star<BR>
>system. Once Terrans had the jump drive it would have been natural<BR>
>to look for such things in nearby star systems.  Maybe the US knew<BR>
>ahead of time that it would find something astonishing at Barnard's<BR>
>Star.)<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps somebody noticed the unshielded radio transmissions from Barnards?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:29:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:08 PM 6/4/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
>Ahm... IMHO what you mean is luck. "Intuition" IMHO is merely<BR>
>sub-conscious thinking, and based on processes of the human brain that<BR>
>developed in our evolutionary history.  If this subconsious thinking is<BR>
>succesful, the survivor remembers it as "I just knew where to go". If<BR>
>not, there is no survivor who can tell that his "intuition" told him to<BR>
>run into that direction. As usual, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
no, I meant training, experience, and human intuition.<BR>
 <BR>
>Anyway, all the questions that you mentioned that a soldier has to<BR>
>answer while doing his/her/its job can be answered based on logic. If<BR>
>the milibot has the AI that Traveller permits, it can judge a situation,<BR>
>and act accordingly as long as it has not to make up new ideas (and<BR>
>ambushing a bunch of soldiers asleep or not asleep would be one of the<BR>
>myriads of standard situations programmed in, IMHO). The point is that<BR>
>non-standard situations are fairly rare on the battlefield, except when<BR>
>new technology is involved. That is why experience is much more valued<BR>
>by modern military than talent.<BR>
<BR>
OK, seven people are on the ground screaming.  Which ones are just<BR>
terrified, which ones are acknowledging orders, and which is the one<BR>
*giving* orders?<BR>
<BR>
>> Each and every soldier on the battlefield has to think.  <BR>
><BR>
>No doubt, but very few of them have to be creative masterminds, don't<BR>
>you aggree?<BR>
<BR>
No they don't.  After all, somebody has to make Graves Registration feel<BR>
busy...<BR>
<BR>
>> a yelled "Berry, Greene; get over to that fence and pin them down!"  But<BR>
>> getting to that fence requires that the individual soldiers have the skill<BR>
>> and intuition to do it without getting killed.<BR>
><BR>
>Skill is a program in the milibot's brain. On intuition, see above.<BR>
<BR>
But if that program isn't equipped to handle the next trick up Captain<BR>
Murphy's sleeve?<BR>
<BR>
I've been through this argument before, and the point is always that on a<BR>
battlefield, dumb infantry are *dead.*  Unless your battle robot is fully<BR>
sentient, it will not be able to act as well as a well-trained infantryman<BR>
in the same situation.<BR>
<BR>
>Especially since 1918. Modern weapons make creative thinking<BR>
>increasingly unneccesary (for the troopers, that is. Command personnel,<BR>
>technicians and the like are a different thing.). Having the right<BR>
>equipment becomes increasingly vital in modern warfare, thus others<BR>
>factors cease in relative importance.<BR>
<BR>
ROTFLMAO!!  You have never tried to use a M-47 Dragon ATGM, have you?<BR>
<BR>
Here's a hint.  Sergeant York would not have any trouble using the<BR>
equipment I carried as an infantryman.<BR>
<BR>
>Tropical rain forest area, flat land(no hills). <BR>
><BR>
>Side A:<BR>
>30 Human soldiers plus 1 command position (say, an experienced NCO).<BR>
>IR vision equipment, radio comm equipment, 5.56 mm assault rifles, 240<BR>
>shots of ammo per soldier. Light armour for certain vital organs<BR>
>(helmets, especially). Enough food for an time, since it's an organic<BR>
>environment.<BR>
<BR>
I hope your hospital is ready to deal with lots of dysentery, and that you<BR>
have enough reserves to handle all the non-combat casualties.<BR>
 <BR>
>Mission: Patrol. Destroy all encountered enemy units. No air support or<BR>
>artillery available. Return when losses make continuing the operation<BR>
>too difficult (NCO's decision).<BR>
<BR>
Like *hell* is any soldier walking out on a patrol that has a "patrol until<BR>
dead" order!  Shit, I's come back after the first guy twisted his ankle!<BR>
<BR>
>Side B:<BR>
>30 Daimler-Chrysler 205a Milibots(Imagine a four-legged metal bug with<BR>
>the rifle mounted on the back. No, this is not an real world design...<BR>
>yet.:-)) plus 1 command position (again, let it be an experienced NCO). <BR>
>IR vision equipment, radio comm equipment, 5.56 mm assault rilfe, 240<BR>
>shots of ammo per unit. Light armour for certain vital parts of the<BR>
>units.(Comparable to a helmet). Robots have enough juice for 48 hours of<BR>
>operation.<BR>
>Mission: Patrol. Destroy all encountered enemy units. No air support or<BR>
>artillery available. Return after 36 hours.<BR>
<BR>
The robots, until contact, will act in a predictable manner. Watch them.<BR>
Decoy them. Watch them shoot up dummies radiating a 98 degrees.<BR>
><BR>
>Situation:<BR>
>Side A and Side B detect each other at 1300 hours somewhere in the<BR>
>forest at a distance of 200 meters. (600 ft./185.2 yards). No benefits<BR>
>of surprise for any side. <BR>
><BR>
>What will happen?<BR>
><BR>
>IMHO, they will start to shoot at each other, perhaps trying to<BR>
>circumvent (exp?) each other or use other standard tactics.<BR>
<BR>
At 200 meters?  I order my troops into covered and concealed positions.<BR>
Let them come to me.  <BR>
<BR>
200 meters is way to far to engage.  Since my mission is too destroy the<BR>
enemy, I can use my brain to decide that a stand-up fight is not smart.<BR>
I'll let them come unto me, and receive their reward!<BR>
><BR>
>The main problem for the side B commander would be giving orders to his<BR>
>"subordinates", using predefined keywords(or perhaps an arm-mounted<BR>
>mini-PDA with a touchscreen to show intended maneuvers). <BR>
<BR>
So I have to kill *one guy* and the entire enemy force is disabled?  Cool!<BR>
20 troops are detailed to engage the bots in a fighting withdrawal.  Ten<BR>
picked troops stay behind in deep cover, waiting for the 'bot herder.<BR>
><BR>
>The milibots won't have any problem to figure out the enemy's position<BR>
>(they could even triangulate it), and using trees as sight cover or<BR>
>perhaps as fire cover isn't that innovative. It computes down on who<BR>
>shoots better. The effects of damage are radically different, though.<BR>
>While side A will suffer a slight decrease in morale with every minor<BR>
>wound, they won't even hear when they hit the enemy. (No screams, no<BR>
>crying.)<BR>
<BR>
No, it comes down to who uses tactics better.  Also, don't bet on damage<BR>
reducing morale.  Read up on what happened during Soviet human wave attacks<BR>
on the Eastern Front.  Properly motivated, people can do anything.<BR>
<BR>
Well trained troops will not break simply because of wounds.. they're an<BR>
expected part of combat.  Also, if I'm in two man positions, each soldier<BR>
has a comrade there to help him and bolster morale.<BR>
<BR>
>I can't see at all where creative thinking is required here. Thinking,<BR>
>yes, but if carried out fast enough (for which computer brains are<BR>
>known), deterministic thinking can do anything that is necessary for an<BR>
>average milibot or trooper in the above situation.<BR>
<BR>
You seem to think that infantry engagements are all about shooting.  They<BR>
aren't.  They are about maneuver and fire discipline.<BR>
<BR>
In the scenario you quote, I can think of several problems side B is going<BR>
to have.<BR>
<BR>
1. All control is in one person.  Kill him, and there isn't anybody to take<BR>
over.<BR>
<BR>
2. The 'bots cannot handle any scenario for which they have not been<BR>
programmed.  What if I suddenly have anti-armor missiles?  Unless you've<BR>
anticipated that, the bots will just keep attacking, despite the fact that<BR>
they are horribly out-gunned.<BR>
<BR>
3. Side A has almost an 8:1 force superiority.  This give A the ability to<BR>
spread out and lure the robots into fire trap after fire trap.  If the<BR>
robots programming says attack any enemy encountered, they will do just<BR>
that, without question.  A human soldier can look at a situation and<BR>
evaluate it.<BR>
<BR>
>Or is there anyone with combat experience out there on the list who can<BR>
>show me the "creative" part?<BR>
<BR>
I just did.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:32:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:11 PM 6/4/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Just ignore the gory "vacuum exposure" shots, as they are pure BS.<BR>
<BR>
Just like the "lights *inside* the faceplate bit."<BR>
<BR>
For those of us with the Sci-Fi Channel, they are showing Blade Runner<BR>
tonight in widescreen.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/<BR>
               --|--<BR>
There's only us.  There's only this.<BR>
    No other way.  No other path.<BR>
          No day but today.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:13:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Speed Of Light(was: new to the list and ...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> XXOmenXXX@aol.com schrieb:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> SCIENTISTS claim they have broken the ultimate speed barrier: the speed of<BR>
>> light.<BR>
><BR>
> I have never understood why Einstein thought it was an absolute barrier.<BR>
<BR>
It's not a matter of what he *thought*. It's a matter of being a<BR>
consequence of the geometry of space-time that follows from the fact of<BR>
lightspeed being a constant in all frames of reference. <BR>
<BR>
And it's not so much that it's an absolute limit as that if you can<BR>
send information FTL, you can send it into the past. Ditto from FTL<BR>
travel, and travel into the past. <BR>
<BR>
It's not some esoteric rule in the theory, it's a consequence of the<BR>
fact that space and time are related according to a simple geometrical<BR>
rule. No stranger than saying:<BR>
	d=sqrt( (x1-x2)^2 + (y1-y2)^2 + (z1-z2)^2 )<BR>
except the rule is more like:<BR>
	i=sqrt( (x1-x2)^2 + (y1-y2)^2 + (z1-z2)^2 - (t1-t2)^2 )<BR>
<BR>
Where "i" is the "interval" between the spacetime co-ordinates of a<BR>
pair of events, and is a *constant* regardless of your frame of<BR>
reference. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:30:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of Tide-locking<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, this one isn't right. A geostationary orbit is one where the<BR>
>>satellite is always directly above the same point (this is why all<BR>
>>geostationary orbits are also equatorial - otherwise the satellite<BR>
>>changes its longitudinal position and isn't truly stationary). Now, the<BR>
>>whole point of a tide-locked planet is that the sun is always above the<BR>
>>same point. Therefore, the geostationary orbit of a tide-locked body is<BR>
>>at the same distance as its primary. Best of luck putting up any useful<BR>
>>satellites at that distance....<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, wrong answer.<BR>
<BR>
>> I worked this out when I was designing a tide-locked planet earlier<BR>
>>(and I came to some different conclusions, and it was a different place<BR>
>>anyway, but I'm still very interested in how this one gets put<BR>
>>together). Anyway, I gave the planet two geostationary moons (I figured<BR>
>>that I might be able to give it a permanent eclipse on its day side),<BR>
>>and then figured out where the moons were...and it turned out to be at<BR>
>>the centre of the sun...not an optimal location. Then I checked to see<BR>
>>if that was the general solution, and it was. Oh well, so much for<BR>
>>geostationary orbits....<BR>
<BR>
>>- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
You made a *critical* error *somewhere*. <BR>
<BR>
The planet is in a 1 "year" orbit about the star. And is at the proper<BR>
distance for an orbit of that period about a body of the mass of that<BR>
star. <BR>
<BR>
The planet has a *much* lower mass than the star. Therefore, for a<BR>
given orbital period, the radius of the orbit will mbe much *larger*<BR>
than for the star.<BR>
<BR>
So a geostationary orbit would actually have to be much *larger* than<BR>
the distance to the primary. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> The only geostationary points will be the Lagrange points.  L4 and L5 may be<BR>
> too far out to be useful but there is one between the planet and star and<BR>
> another further out from the star but in line with the planet which could be<BR>
> used.  (Can't remeber which are L1, L2 or L3.)  The exact position will<BR>
> depend on the relative masses of the star and planet.<BR>
><BR>
> L1, L2 and L3 aren't as stable as L4 and L5 would be so your satellite would<BR>
> have to make constant adjustments.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, they aren't all that bad on *human* timescales. We've got a<BR>
solar probe "orbiting" around the L1 point (the one between earth<BR>
andthe sun). Apparently, this is more stable than trying to have it sit<BR>
right at the point.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 17:01:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
couple of notes about the design<BR>
the function rooms include<BR>
2 torture rooms<BR>
teens bedroom[1 each male and female]<BR>
Lockerooms[again male and female]<BR>
Doctors office<BR>
Executives office<BR>
<BR>
the rest is left up to imagination of the GM and players<BR>
<BR>
this design was part of my second pyramid article which was <BR>
rejected for some strange reason<BR>
<BR>
they said they were going to publish part two, which included this <BR>
and 2 other more mainstream designs. but never got around to it <BR>
apparently.<BR>
<BR>
as far as the hull design, its desigend to look like the rocket ship <BR>
from the SF classic Flesh Gordon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:15:47 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snips discussion of infantry-on-gruntbot encounter>><BR>
> <BR>
> In the scenario you quote, I can think of several problems side B is going<BR>
> to have.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. All control is in one person.  Kill him, and there isn't anybody to take<BR>
> over.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2. The 'bots cannot handle any scenario for which they have not been<BR>
> programmed.  What if I suddenly have anti-armor missiles?  Unless you've<BR>
> anticipated that, the bots will just keep attacking, despite the fact that<BR>
> they are horribly out-gunned.<BR>
> <BR>
> 3. Side A has almost an 8:1 force superiority.  This give A the ability to<BR>
> spread out and lure the robots into fire trap after fire trap.  If the<BR>
> robots programming says attack any enemy encountered, they will do just<BR>
> that, without question.  A human soldier can look at a situation and<BR>
> evaluate it.<BR>
> <BR>
> >Or is there anyone with combat experience out there on the list who can<BR>
> >show me the "creative" part?<BR>
> <BR>
> I just did.<BR>
<BR>
Plus, if my 98G colleagues are anywhere nearby, the gruntbots' comm<BR>
links will be:<BR>
a) well and truly jammed (or, if possible, spoofed), or<BR>
b) found via direction-finding and either evaded or targeted for<BR>
indirect fire assets.  (I know the original scenario claimed that<BR>
indirect fire assets were unavailable; however, any modern army that<BR>
would commit ground forces without any fire support at all is criminally<BR>
negligent.)<BR>
<BR>
Infantrymen can operate effectively in a heavy ECM environment (it being<BR>
difficult to jam eyes and ears), while gruntbots would need to rely to<BR>
_some_ extent on external comms.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 17:16:34 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Robots<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:08:33 +0200<BR>
> From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@gno.de><BR>
> Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
...<BR>
> The point is that<BR>
> non-standard situations are fairly rare on the battlefield, except when<BR>
> new technology is involved. That is why experience is much more valued<BR>
> by modern military than talent.<BR>
<BR>
There are *no* "standard situations" on the battlefield. Experience is<BR>
rewarded more reliably by a peacetime military because it is much easier<BR>
for bureaucracies to measure (and accept) than talent. <BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
> Or is there anyone with combat experience out there on the list who can<BR>
> show me the "creative" part?<BR>
<BR>
Sure, you said it yourself:<BR>
<BR>
> What will happen?<BR>
><BR>
> IMHO, they will start to shoot at each other, perhaps trying to<BR>
> circumvent (exp?) each other or use other standard tactics.<BR>
<BR>
Just because you can't come up with more options, doesn't mean that the<BR>
troops can't. They can and will, and there are 30 of them to your one NCO.<BR>
<BR>
First of all, you have cooked your example to make it "fair" to both sides<BR>
- -- it's not. Any patrol that would sit still and trade shots with a<BR>
platoon of mobile automatic weapons deserves what they get. In this<BR>
position (assuming I'd accept a blanket "search and destroy" mission<BR>
at all with these things in the AO), I'd break contact and try something<BR>
else.<BR>
<BR>
A German general officer once observed that war is chaos, and that the<BR>
reason the American army does so well in combat is that they practice<BR>
chaos on a daily basis. In more formal parlance, this is called<BR>
"initiative" -- each soldier is *expected* to take action to further the<BR>
unit's mission, in the absence of _or_even_contrary_to_ orders.<BR>
<BR>
"War -- successful war -- is filled with improvisation. You should start<BR>
to learn how to improvise now, in your training. Leaders should value this<BR>
innovative thinking. Moreover, they should expect it from their<BR>
subordinates because it offers new opportunities."<BR>
<BR>
Fleet Marine Field Manual 1-3, Tactics. Note that this manual is<BR>
specifically aimed at every Marine, from Recruit to Commandant.<BR>
<BR>
When robots can be counted on to do this effectively, they have become<BR>
just another kind of sophont soldier, no more different than some alien<BR>
species. This is clearly beyond the current state of the art in the OTU,<BR>
however: "Low Artificial Intelligence" is TL17.<BR>
<BR>
Military robots will certainly have their uses -- Richard Simpkin makes a<BR>
good case for autonomic defenses as an adjuct to mobile forces, in his<BR>
_Race to the Swift_ -- but don't let that blind you to their limitations.<BR>
<BR>
Christopher Thrash<BR>
Major, U.S. Cavalry<BR>
<BR>
formerly <BR>
Commander, C Troop, 1st Squadron, 10th U.S. Cavalry<BR>
Mogadishu, Somalia<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2549<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) by air-yd05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 18:18:16 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 18:17:43 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA50101;<BR>
	Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:16:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:16:38 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA50058<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:16:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:16:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006042216.SAA50058@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2549<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2550</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/4/00 8:04:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 4 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2550<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Another [GT] Quibble<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Military Robots<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
re: Milibots<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
non-SF Games<BR>
Re: Military Robots<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:17:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
Ingo wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry schrieb:<BR>
><BR>
>> Infiltration is the same thing.. thousands of decisions points that<BR>
require<BR>
>> intuition not logic.<BR>
<BR>
>Ahm... IMHO what you mean is luck. "Intuition" IMHO is merely<BR>
>sub-conscious thinking, and based on processes of the human brain that<BR>
>developed in our evolutionary history.  If this subconsious thinking is<BR>
>succesful, the survivor remembers it as "I just knew where to go". If<BR>
>not, there is no survivor who can tell that his "intuition" told him to<BR>
>run into that direction. As usual, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, that's not what intuition is. Intuition is the ability to act<BR>
without apparent knowledge of the situation, or when information cannot be<BR>
"weighed" effectively through the use of rational thought. The example that<BR>
you've given is extremely narrow. It assumes a "death or life" situation in<BR>
which only those whose intuition turns out to be correct will survive.<BR>
That's not the way intuition works.<BR>
<BR>
How do the robots act when they don't know anything at all? How do the<BR>
robots act when all of their options look equally "good", or equally "bad"?<BR>
Will the robots be able to make quick and decisive decisions in such<BR>
situations?<BR>
<BR>
To assume that all situations can be handled by logic is to assume that all<BR>
possible situations in which a robot may find itself will be assigned a<BR>
"weight" in advance. This could be due to prior programming, which is to say<BR>
that all possible situations are programmed in, but since a robot may find<BR>
itself in an infinite number of situations this is simply an impossibility.<BR>
On the other hand, a reasonable assumption would be that all of the<BR>
components of a potential situation may be assigned a "weight" on the same<BR>
"scale". The first flaw is that the components of a potential situation are<BR>
infinite. The second flaw is that it would be extremely difficult to<BR>
generate a scale in which all components in a potential situation can be<BR>
measured with respect to each other.<BR>
<BR>
Even if either method turned out to actually be possible (which would<BR>
require infinite storage space and infinite processing), one captured unit<BR>
could very well give up the secrets of the entire army. It would be a<BR>
relatively simple matter for an opposing army to poke and prod a captured<BR>
warbot to see how it would react in various situations. It would be slightly<BR>
more complicated, but still well within the realm of possibility, for an<BR>
opposing army to crack open the warbot's brain and see all of various<BR>
responses to external and internal stimuli.<BR>
<BR>
In either case, these intuitionless robots would become pretty much useless.<BR>
<BR>
Even if you were willing to take the chance of your army being rendered<BR>
useless, processing information takes time. A vast, but not infinite,<BR>
library of standardized responses might allow robots to respond effectively.<BR>
However, a vast library of standardized responses could, and almost<BR>
certainly would, slow reaction time significantly. This is where intuition<BR>
(and creativity) comes in.<BR>
<BR>
I think that this points to exactly what Doug and others have been saying<BR>
from the beginning. Warbots without creativity cannot be expected to act in<BR>
the same fashion as human soldiers in the same situations. Intuition can be<BR>
seen as a form of creativity. Intuition, in this sense at least, is the<BR>
ability to generate a plan of action without any knowledge or from<BR>
information which cannot be "weighed" in a rational sense. Creativity covers<BR>
a lot more ground than that.<BR>
<BR>
Imagination, creativity and resourcefulness are all very closely linked<BR>
words and are all extremely useful, and are probably required, in a combat<BR>
situation. Imagination, as the name suggests, is the ability to build a<BR>
mental "image" of something which does not exist. This is why imagination is<BR>
a quality so important to artists. This can be simulated by both logic and<BR>
experience but I have no reason to believe that either can function as a<BR>
substitute for imagination. Logic, in such a situation, would require<BR>
processing time. There is precious little time to spare during battles.<BR>
Creativity, at least in the broad sense here, is the ability to convert the<BR>
result of imagination into reality. An author or painter is said to possess<BR>
creativity because he is able to convert what is imagined into tangible<BR>
form. Resourcefulness is the ability to apply creativity to more "practical"<BR>
situations.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I would venture to add flexibility as a required trait but<BR>
that's just me. Flexibility being defined here as the ability to give up on<BR>
a course of action which seems perfectly rational and logical but is<BR>
obviously not working out.<BR>
<BR>
I think that the problem here is evidenced in the example you close your<BR>
message with: battles are not simply two groups of combatants becoming aware<BR>
of each other and shooting until the other side is dead. Battles are complex<BR>
combinations of smaller individual "parts": ambushes (that is to say<BR>
prepared traps for the enemy, not merely "sneak attacks"), creation of<BR>
fortifications and the placement of support weapons, etc. None of these<BR>
things are "standard" because battles on different types of terrain, in<BR>
different weather conditions and seen as parts of larger campaigns make each<BR>
individual battle completely different and will require different tactics.<BR>
<BR>
The type of battle you describe is not the "bread and butter" of warfare.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 17:31:27 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Another [GT] Quibble<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:59:24 -500<BR>
> From: jeffb@ebtech.net<BR>
> Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
> <BR>
> Why would they go to Barnard's Star when there are more likely <BR>
> stars in the other direction.<BR>
<BR>
<conspiracy><BR>
<BR>
Because certain Terrain governments had evidence (telescopic observations<BR>
of jump flares, perhaps) that they would find something there more<BR>
interesting than merely habitable worlds?<BR>
<BR>
</conspiracy><BR>
<BR>
Because there was a sublight mission which had already arrived at A Cen.<BR>
(but the report was still enroute back to Sol system), and they didn't<BR>
want to be upstaged?<BR>
<BR>
[This is not a GT problem, by the bye -- it exists as far back as the<BR>
Imperium board game.]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:31:59 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/04/00 at 02:29 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>The main problem for the side B commander would be giving orders to his<BR>
>>"subordinates", using predefined keywords(or perhaps an arm-mounted<BR>
>>mini-PDA with a touchscreen to show intended maneuvers). <BR>
<BR>
>So I have to kill *one guy* and the entire enemy force is disabled? <BR>
>Cool! 20 troops are detailed to engage the bots in a fighting withdrawal. <BR>
>Ten picked troops stay behind in deep cover, waiting for the 'bot herder.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, don't be surprised if he comes back with B's commander is<BR>
operating from a nice safe CCC 1,000 km away.  It doesn't matter if<BR>
he's 10 m or 10,000 m away, he's going to have to use radio<BR>
communication to control his milbots in that jungle environment.<BR>
So, why should the human be nearby?<BR>
<BR>
Of course, *now* you can jam communications...<g>...and so the<BR>
argument continues!<BR>
<BR>
IMO, you're right.  Milbots are going to be too inflexible and hard<BR>
to control to be independent "troopers" unless they are sentient,<BR>
and sentient bots have their own problems and concerns.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:40:41 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Military Robots<BR>
<BR>
On 06/04/00 at 05:16 PM,  Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>> IMHO, they will start to shoot at each other, perhaps trying to<BR>
>> circumvent (exp?) each other or use other standard tactics.<BR>
<BR>
>Just because you can't come up with more options, doesn't mean that the<BR>
>troops can't. They can and will, and there are 30 of them to your one<BR>
>NCO.<BR>
<BR>
It occurs to me that we all have evidence of this.  In every<BR>
roleplaying game I've ever played in or run the PC's have managed to<BR>
surprise the GM by trying something he hadn't thought of. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:37:29 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
At 18:16 -0400 4/6/00, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>In "Rim of Fire" we established a possible reason for the Barnard's<BR>
>Star trip.  Alpha Centauri had already been the target for one of the<BR>
>European STL colonization probes.  At the time of the first FTL<BR>
>expedition news was expected from the new colony at any time.  As<BR>
>a matter of national pride, the Americans planning the expedition<BR>
>didn't want to just play messenger for the Prometheus colonists. . .<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, _Imperium_ has an initial set up in 2113 AD with both Alpha <BR>
Centauri A & B as 'worlds' and Barnard and Junction only as <BR>
'outposts'. The map in Imperium is pretty similar to Traveller's <BR>
Solomani Rim (although looking from below rather than above). Now, if <BR>
your colonisation programme was aimed at worlds then the nearest ones <BR>
are Nusku (two systems on from Barnard, and likely to be occupied by <BR>
the Vilani at the start) and Mirabilis (3 jumps from Junction). <BR>
Everything else needs deep space tankers to cross through the Sirius <BR>
System, something the Terrans can't achieve until 2115 AD at the <BR>
earliest.<BR>
<BR>
The natural route for Terran expansion is into the less than perfect <BR>
systems out from Alpha Centauri, Promixia Centauri and Junction, away <BR>
from the Vilani. Expanding towards Nusku prompts war very quickly, <BR>
and Mirabilis presents extended supply lines which can be hit from <BR>
Tau Ceti etc from the start. Those systems with worlds <BR>
(Mirabilis/Nusku) both also require to be held for 10 continuous <BR>
years *in peace time* to be upgraded to a 'world' from an outpost. <BR>
Other systems would have to be terraformed which requires a lot of <BR>
resources (3 resource units every two years (Terra starts with 26/ <BR>
two years) for a hundred years).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this is all based around Imperium so may vary slightly <BR>
from the Traveller background.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:41:21 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 18:16 -0400 4/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>In the scenario you quote, I can think of several problems side B is going<BR>
>to have.<BR>
<BR>
<snip of good reasons><BR>
<BR>
4. Define 'enemy'.<BR>
<BR>
5. Does the combat mode permit the robots to be drawn out of their <BR>
area of operations...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:02:18 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Consider a minefield.<BR>
<BR>
It's dumb, and works a *lot* better if it has supervision - command detonation<BR>
mines, fire support to whack enemy units trying to ease their way through the<BR>
field, etc.  It works very well to channel the enemy or for area denial.<BR>
<BR>
Think of military robots in a similar fashion.  It would be unwise to use them<BR>
on their own, but as a support weapon and force multiplier they may make<BR>
outstanding weapons.<BR>
<BR>
I've developed a Plasma Bot for a CT TL 12 military, designed as a self-mobile,<BR>
semi-autonomous squad support weapon.  You'd never send the poor thing<BR>
out to play on it's own, any more than a K-9 Police Officer would send his<BR>
police dog out on solo patrol.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:41:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
So, if "The Bugs" from Starship Troopers is not a good analog for the Hivers, then what served <BR>
as their inspiration.  Or, are they completely original?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:50:43 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote,<BR>
>Wartime economics and production are a very special case of normal<BR>
economics and production, with some very special rules.<<BR>
<with other things><BR>
<BR>
So then the question becomes, even if you have built something, do you have<BR>
to use it? Just because X number of level bombers were built, is there some<BR>
rule they had to be used that I am not aware of? Did the crews have to be<BR>
sent on missions with pathetic survival rates and of (at best) dubious<BR>
morality?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Why did the Imperium stop making Kinunirs before the scheduled<BR>
production run was finished? Why do they keep mothballing the AHL's?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:05:02 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (Now chock full of OT: Constitutional Content)<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote,<BR>
>The difference is that there was no second legislative body in<BR>
NYC that was weighted by population - no equivalent to the House<BR>
of Representatives, IOW.  The net result was a strong bias in the<BR>
BoE toward Manhattan and Staten Island, with the rest of the city<BR>
often getting shafted.  There has been a lot more outer-boroughs<BR>
development since the revision than there was for quite some time<BR>
before it.<<BR>
<BR>
Yes there was, we still had a City Council, it just had different duties.<BR>
Further, numerous bodies operate without weighted representation. Even the<BR>
U.S. Senate has several duties exclusive to it and not shared with the<BR>
House.<BR>
In short, Piffle on the Supreme Court and its long history of wacky<BR>
decisions.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:58:58 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>There was an interesting article on WW2 aircraft economics a couple<BR>
years ago in JMH; ISTR the point being made that while the US policy<BR>
maximized quantity production, it would have been a much less useful<BR>
approach if the specialty units (and this applies to tanks, too) had<BR>
not been being designed and produced elsewhere. There's a good case<BR>
to be made that the UK's production of lots of different designs (and<BR>
many of them also high-end, rather than "just" specialized) was really<BR>
an expression of the strengths of the industry created by the policies<BR>
of defense purchasing in the `30's - smallish orders from multiple<BR>
vendors with lots of design expertise.<<BR>
<BR>
But didn't the wide variety and lack of standardization wind up being part<BR>
of the downfall of the Wehrmacht at the same time? And didn't the extreme<BR>
specialization hurt a lot of British units at the beginning of the war.<BR>
("No, these are infantry tanks. They shoot at infantry and don't need AP<BR>
rounds. And these are cruiser tanks, they shoot at tanks and don't need HE<BR>
rounds.") This approach also caused trouble for the U.S. by the end of the<BR>
war with the insistence of the panners that TD's fight tanks and tanks shoot<BR>
at infantry and never crossover. Nice theory, lousy reality.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:33:25 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/4/00 6:45:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> FWIW, _Imperium_ has an initial set up in 2113 AD with both Alpha <BR>
>  Centauri A & B as 'worlds' and Barnard and Junction only as <BR>
>  'outposts'.<BR>
<BR>
Another reason why we decided on having one of the European STL<BR>
expeditions go to Alpha Centauri.  It explained not only the odd choice<BR>
of target for the first jump expedition, but also the fact that Alpha Centauri<BR>
was a "world" in the Imperium game as early as ISW-1.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:32:09 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote,<BR>
>Ambushes are all the same, except for the fact that each one os different.<BR>
:)<<BR>
and,<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Actually Douglas Berry said just about everything I would have said already<BR>
except for this one bit.<BR>
<BR>
>> Not exactly. The main differences were the Roman use of Pila and<BR>
(thrusting)<BR>
> Gladius.<BR>
<BR>
So it was new technology ? ;-)<<BR>
<BR>
Errr....not really. It was more a new way to use existing technology.<BR>
Anybody could have put an iron spear head on a wooden shaft and the short<BR>
thrusting sword was old hat in Spain by the time the Romans took it from<BR>
Carthage. It was putting both together and using a mass javelin volley<BR>
followed by teams of sword and shield armed soldiers, an innovative tactic,<BR>
that made the Romans masters of the Classical World.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody wrote,<BR>
>IMHO robots will be able to have some pretty sophisticated AI subroutines<BR>
by<BR>
then, that's just from  extrapolating out the AI that are being developed<BR>
now for some of the first person shooters and RT strategy games, they are<BR>
getting better and more realistic all the time.  I think they would be able<BR>
to asses situations and determine the best course of action, especially with<BR>
detailed goals.  They may not be very creative but certainly effective.<<BR>
<BR>
While an individual soldier may not survive long enough to do it, who here<BR>
can't beat even the best of games given several tries? Any program was<BR>
always be limited and can eventually be beaten. And if you get ahold of a<BR>
copy  of the program as Leonard Erickson pointed out ...<BR>
Granted, you could have the programmers constantly updating the programs so<BR>
that doesn't happen but soldiers already do that on there own. Also, after a<BR>
certain point in order to program your robots you need the experience of a<BR>
veteran soldier to begin with.<BR>
<BR>
Back to Ingo again,<BR>
>Or is there anyone with combat experience out there on the list who can<BR>
show me the "creative" part?<<BR>
<BR>
Again, Douglas Berry said just about everything I could. All I would add is<BR>
on intuition.<BR>
Don't downplay intuition, be it "luck" or otherwise. I have heard it said<BR>
that the greatest fighter in the world doesn't fear the second best but the<BR>
worst. He knows what the #2 guy will do in a fight, but someone "just off<BR>
the street" could do any crazy thing so he wouldn't know what to expect.<BR>
While nowhere near the greatest fighter, I have firsthand experience with<BR>
this phenomenon lower down the scale. With someone who is "that good" I know<BR>
what they will be doing. I might not be able to do anything about it, but I<BR>
know quite well what they are going to do. People still doing whatever crazy<BR>
thing they come up with surprise you constantly. And all too often, crazy<BR>
works.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:46:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/4/00 4:41 PM, robert_snyder@prontomail.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> So, if "The Bugs" from Starship Troopers is not a good analog for the Hivers,<BR>
> then what served <BR>
> as their inspiration.  Or, are they completely original?<BR>
<BR>
Quite original.Check out the TML archives from about a month or two ago, and<BR>
you'll find a moderate length thread concerning them. It started with<BR>
someone noting my pages ref to Hivers being /like/ the Puppeteers from<BR>
Nivens books, and also got into the differences. But I have never seen any<BR>
book that had an alien species identical (or even nearly so) to the Hivers.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:47:24<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 04:41 PM 6/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>So, if "The Bugs" from Starship Troopers is not a good analog for the <BR>
>Hivers, then what served as their inspiration.  Or, are they completely <BR>
>original?<BR>
<BR>
As far as I know, they were originals.  Not everything in Traveller has to<BR>
be derivative.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:10:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Consider a minefield.<BR>
><BR>
>It's dumb, and works a *lot* better if it has supervision - command<BR>
detonation<BR>
>mines, fire support to whack enemy units trying to ease their way through<BR>
the<BR>
>field, etc.  It works very well to channel the enemy or for area denial.<BR>
><BR>
>Think of military robots in a similar fashion.  It would be unwise to use<BR>
them<BR>
>on their own, but as a support weapon and force multiplier they may make<BR>
>outstanding weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Bingo! I think that Walt has hit the nail on the head here. There is space<BR>
for warbots in the Traveller universe, but I don't think that they would<BR>
necessarily replace the combat soldier. They would fill new niches, or<BR>
possibly take the place of other types of equipment, but unless they were<BR>
really spectacular, and sentient in their own right, they wouldn't be able<BR>
to take the place of sentient soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to work warbots into your campaigns, and you don't like the<BR>
notion of fully sentient AIs, you still do have a number of options if you<BR>
approach the problem correctly. Just think about what roles automated<BR>
systems might be useful for on the battlefield, and what their advantages<BR>
are. Keep an open mind about the possibilities and don't get stuck on<BR>
attempts to simulate and replace soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
Take cues from the natural world. From what I understand this way of<BR>
thinking is becoming quite common among people who are really thinking about<BR>
how to use robots to solve problems. For example, my parents were recently<BR>
in Mexico and in the course of their stay found themselves in the midst of a<BR>
massive crab migration over the mountain which they were staying on.<BR>
Thousands of crabs suddenly ascended upon the hotel they were staying. The<BR>
little beasts were everywhere and at its height the crab infestation was so<BR>
bad that it was extremely difficult to walk. Instead of cute little crabs<BR>
imagine tiny walking mines. Big swarms of them. Scary. Such robots could<BR>
also be used to swarm and harass fortified troops. Sure you can sweep them<BR>
with machineguns and flamethrowers, but their small and cheap nature allows<BR>
you to keep pumping them out. Such swarming robots could be built so that<BR>
they only attack personnel, or they could be robotic sappers intended to<BR>
weaken physical defenses. I suppose that they could even be decoys (or some<BR>
swarms might be cheaper and dumber decoys).<BR>
<BR>
Any way you look at it, such robots would have extremely simple programming,<BR>
probably not too far off of current "flocking" algorithms. Their cheap<BR>
nature would make them ridiculously expendable.<BR>
<BR>
Try to think about the advantages inherent in the very "form" of the robot.<BR>
Robots don't get bored, for example. Given enough power, robots can lie in<BR>
wait for days, months, maybe even years. This would make them really<BR>
effective "super smart mines". Sniper robots or anti-tank robots could well<BR>
remain dormant for long periods and then suddenly come out of hiding without<BR>
warning. This could tie up enemy forces who would have to seek out and<BR>
destroy them, or weaken interplanetary supply lines.<BR>
<BR>
Combinations of these sorts of robots, set up in waves, could make holding a<BR>
planet an unpleasant proposition. They might be immoral, and might be<BR>
uncommon in mercenary engagements within the Imperium, but they might be<BR>
used in "total war" situations.<BR>
<BR>
Just some ideas.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:11:22 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On 06/04/00 at 05:47 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 04:41 PM 6/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>So, if "The Bugs" from Starship Troopers is not a good analog for the <BR>
>>Hivers, then what served as their inspiration.  Or, are they completely <BR>
>>original?<BR>
<BR>
>As far as I know, they were originals.  Not everything in Traveller has<BR>
>to be derivative.<BR>
<BR>
Although, some people seem to think so. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:55:42 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>Subject: re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
...<BR>
>>For people who really want the higher-tech stuff<BR>
>>go for either Castle Falken-whatever or your favourite flavour of GURPS -<BR>
>>low-fantasy or low-tech people should consider either "Gemini", or<BR>
>>Hogshead Publishings WFRP - both of which are substantially cheaper, as<BR>
>>all game info (including world background!) is in a single largish book.<BR>
><BR>
>Fair point, but the WFRP system is IMO worse than 7th Sea by a long way.<BR>
<BR>
  WFRP certainly has got some flaws, of which I would suggest that the<BR>
worst is that their career-based advancement system (however neat and<BR>
supportive it is during char-gen) is profoundly screwed after you've<BR>
played a few major adventures - about 6-10 sessions?<BR>
<BR>
  The complaints I heard about 7th Sea (besides the poor value of the<BR>
package) is that the characters start out being truly exceptional, and<BR>
the major utility of the advancement system seems to be to allow them <BR>
to become god-like at everything else; note that the allegations that<BR>
the system is a fumble-free munchkins paradise comes from people who <BR>
like and play it, whereas I've merely talked to them and skimmed it.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: hey, do you think that a career-based char-gen system might<BR>
be of use in SF-RPG's?                                            :)<BR>
<BR>
        Steven<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:09:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Robots<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 5:21 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Military Robots<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<Lots of good commentary snipped><BR>
<BR>
>When robots can be counted on to do this effectively, they have become<BR>
>just another kind of sophont soldier, no more different than some alien<BR>
>species. This is clearly beyond the current state of the art in the OTU,<BR>
>however: "Low Artificial Intelligence" is TL17.<BR>
><BR>
>Military robots will certainly have their uses -- Richard Simpkin makes a<BR>
>good case for autonomic defenses as an adjuct to mobile forces, in his<BR>
>_Race to the Swift_ -- but don't let that blind you to their limitations.<BR>
><BR>
>Christopher Thrash<BR>
>Major, U.S. Cavalry<BR>
><BR>
>formerly<BR>
>Commander, C Troop, 1st Squadron, 10th U.S. Cavalry<BR>
>Mogadishu, Somalia<BR>
><BR>
I think you are right on the mark here but my question relates to what does<BR>
Low AI at TL 17 mean?  Does it mean low sentient or animal intelligence or<BR>
not even good AI?  I think Good AI can still be considered low AI as far as<BR>
thinking for itself.  The software we have now can make a low AI.   It can<BR>
approximate intelligence and even "seems" intelligent but has no ability to<BR>
learn or think for itself.  It would require intricate programming but I<BR>
would expect nothing less for military software used in combat robots.  Heck<BR>
they even take pains to do good AI for games.  It would obviously be much<BR>
improved AI at even TL10, and really really good at TL17.  I don't have the<BR>
robots book so I can't speak about canon.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:55:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
IMHO you are getting a bit over exotic in your battlefield ideas. Yes some<BR>
battles are more complex than others and the weather and terrain my be<BR>
different but we train our soldiers to react in different situations, why<BR>
cant a robot be trained in the same fashion so to speak.  Sure there might<BR>
be times when innovation may change the tide of battle but most are along<BR>
the lines of "take that hill soldier". Especially in the OTU with the "good"<BR>
wars in limited warfare.  The /majority/ of the combat is at the very least<BR>
similar and most /Human/ soldiers will react the same way in given<BR>
circumstances, not all, but most. They are not doing brain surgery on the<BR>
battlefield.  They are trained to react in certain ways, and a robot given<BR>
particular circumstances will be able to react more quickly than a trained<BR>
soldier, you won't need to calculate every single possible scenario for<BR>
every situation before reacting. Humans don't do that and given the same<BR>
situation a well programmed robot won't either.  In its simple form it is<BR>
like a chess match.  Yes Kasparov can beat a computer but that computer can<BR>
beat the majority of human opponents easily, even knowing that is knows<BR>
chess at an expert level and having a book in front of you you will still<BR>
probably loose.   I will also concede that a chess match has a finite number<BR>
of possibilities, although numerous.  I am not a programmer, but it is<BR>
programmed with the rules and different strategies, it tries to determine<BR>
what the opponent is doing and try to figure out the best way to win.  This<BR>
is just an example of a simple AI that we have at current TL.  Obviously it<BR>
would be much more intricate and sophisticated for a combat robot.<BR>
<BR>
Corollary to capturing a robot, you can capture a human soldier and<BR>
interrogate him all you want and you may discover the way he will react in<BR>
given circumstances but is that going to change the reality of the<BR>
battlefield?  Knowing how your enemy is going to react is a big help but may<BR>
still not be enough to counter balance sheer numbers of an overwhelming and<BR>
well trained force, robot or human.  And there are probably ways to<BR>
safeguard against enemy capture with self-destruct and other methods to<BR>
short the brain or whatever if it falls into the wrong hands.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 5:24 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Ingo wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Douglas E. Berry schrieb:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Infiltration is the same thing.. thousands of decisions points that<BR>
>require<BR>
>>> intuition not logic.<BR>
><BR>
>>Ahm... IMHO what you mean is luck. "Intuition" IMHO is merely<BR>
>>sub-conscious thinking, and based on processes of the human brain that<BR>
>>developed in our evolutionary history.  If this subconsious thinking is<BR>
>>succesful, the survivor remembers it as "I just knew where to go". If<BR>
>>not, there is no survivor who can tell that his "intuition" told him to<BR>
>>run into that direction. As usual, YMMV.<BR>
><BR>
>Unfortunately, that's not what intuition is. Intuition is the ability to<BR>
act<BR>
>without apparent knowledge of the situation, or when information cannot be<BR>
>"weighed" effectively through the use of rational thought. The example that<BR>
>you've given is extremely narrow. It assumes a "death or life" situation in<BR>
>which only those whose intuition turns out to be correct will survive.<BR>
>That's not the way intuition works.<BR>
><BR>
>How do the robots act when they don't know anything at all? How do the<BR>
>robots act when all of their options look equally "good", or equally "bad"?<BR>
>Will the robots be able to make quick and decisive decisions in such<BR>
>situations?<BR>
><BR>
>To assume that all situations can be handled by logic is to assume that all<BR>
>possible situations in which a robot may find itself will be assigned a<BR>
>"weight" in advance. This could be due to prior programming, which is to<BR>
say<BR>
>that all possible situations are programmed in, but since a robot may find<BR>
>itself in an infinite number of situations this is simply an impossibility.<BR>
>On the other hand, a reasonable assumption would be that all of the<BR>
>components of a potential situation may be assigned a "weight" on the same<BR>
>"scale". The first flaw is that the components of a potential situation are<BR>
>infinite. The second flaw is that it would be extremely difficult to<BR>
>generate a scale in which all components in a potential situation can be<BR>
>measured with respect to each other.<BR>
><BR>
>Even if either method turned out to actually be possible (which would<BR>
>require infinite storage space and infinite processing), one captured unit<BR>
>could very well give up the secrets of the entire army. It would be a<BR>
>relatively simple matter for an opposing army to poke and prod a captured<BR>
>warbot to see how it would react in various situations. It would be<BR>
slightly<BR>
>more complicated, but still well within the realm of possibility, for an<BR>
>opposing army to crack open the warbot's brain and see all of various<BR>
>responses to external and internal stimuli.<BR>
><BR>
>In either case, these intuitionless robots would become pretty much<BR>
useless.<BR>
><BR>
>Even if you were willing to take the chance of your army being rendered<BR>
>useless, processing information takes time. A vast, but not infinite,<BR>
>library of standardized responses might allow robots to respond<BR>
effectively.<BR>
>However, a vast library of standardized responses could, and almost<BR>
>certainly would, slow reaction time significantly. This is where intuition<BR>
>(and creativity) comes in.<BR>
><BR>
>I think that this points to exactly what Doug and others have been saying<BR>
>from the beginning. Warbots without creativity cannot be expected to act in<BR>
>the same fashion as human soldiers in the same situations. Intuition can be<BR>
>seen as a form of creativity. Intuition, in this sense at least, is the<BR>
>ability to generate a plan of action without any knowledge or from<BR>
>information which cannot be "weighed" in a rational sense. Creativity<BR>
covers<BR>
>a lot more ground than that.<BR>
><BR>
>Imagination, creativity and resourcefulness are all very closely linked<BR>
>words and are all extremely useful, and are probably required, in a combat<BR>
>situation. Imagination, as the name suggests, is the ability to build a<BR>
>mental "image" of something which does not exist. This is why imagination<BR>
is<BR>
>a quality so important to artists. This can be simulated by both logic and<BR>
>experience but I have no reason to believe that either can function as a<BR>
>substitute for imagination. Logic, in such a situation, would require<BR>
>processing time. There is precious little time to spare during battles.<BR>
>Creativity, at least in the broad sense here, is the ability to convert the<BR>
>result of imagination into reality. An author or painter is said to possess<BR>
>creativity because he is able to convert what is imagined into tangible<BR>
>form. Resourcefulness is the ability to apply creativity to more<BR>
"practical"<BR>
>situations.<BR>
><BR>
>Personally, I would venture to add flexibility as a required trait but<BR>
>that's just me. Flexibility being defined here as the ability to give up on<BR>
>a course of action which seems perfectly rational and logical but is<BR>
>obviously not working out.<BR>
><BR>
>I think that the problem here is evidenced in the example you close your<BR>
>message with: battles are not simply two groups of combatants becoming<BR>
aware<BR>
>of each other and shooting until the other side is dead. Battles are<BR>
complex<BR>
>combinations of smaller individual "parts": ambushes (that is to say<BR>
>prepared traps for the enemy, not merely "sneak attacks"), creation of<BR>
>fortifications and the placement of support weapons, etc. None of these<BR>
>things are "standard" because battles on different types of terrain, in<BR>
>different weather conditions and seen as parts of larger campaigns make<BR>
each<BR>
>individual battle completely different and will require different tactics.<BR>
><BR>
>The type of battle you describe is not the "bread and butter" of warfare.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2550<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 23:04:01 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 23:03:42 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id XAA61854;<BR>
	Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:02:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:02:14 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id XAA61812<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:02:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:02:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006050302.XAA61812@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2550<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2551</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/5/00 12:08:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 5 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2551<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: non-SF Games<BR>
Black Globes as Power Generators<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
re: leave it hanging?<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production <BR>
Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
Re: non-SF Games<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Forine<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
RE: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Skyport Authority<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:01:27 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
On 06/04/00 at 07:55 PM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>  ObTrav: hey, do you think that a career-based char-gen system might be<BR>
>of use in SF-RPG's?                                            :)<BR>
<BR>
What a unique idea!!! Why hasn't *anyone* every thought of that before? :-J<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:23:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: Black Globes as Power Generators<BR>
<BR>
    Okay, this might be a bit off the beaten path, but here is an<BR>
application of black globes to give power production that<BR>
approachesantimatter power plants (but at least 2 tech levels earlier).<BR>
<BR>
    The simplest application of a black globe power generator would be to<BR>
put it relatively close to a star.  Why close to a star? To present a larger<BR>
cross section to pick up stellar radiation.  The "ship" containing the black<BR>
globe generator would need to possess large scale capacitors and a laser<BR>
pointed at a receiver located near the mainworld of a system.  By setting<BR>
the black globe force field on flicker the laser can fire (using energy in<BR>
the capacitors) transferring energy/power to a harnessing space station.<BR>
Think of this as high efficiency solar power.<BR>
<BR>
    A second, and more drastic option is as follows:  bombard a black globe<BR>
force field with heated dust or plasma.  The key here is that matter is<BR>
hitting the globe.  Existing traveller literature doesn't seem to indicate<BR>
that the matter is turned into energy when it hits a black globe.  Rather,<BR>
"If an erected force field comes into contact with large quantities of<BR>
matter (a vehicle of 50 dtons or greater, etc.), the generator is<BR>
immediately overloaded and destroyed, and its HPG sink immediately suffers<BR>
catastrophic detonation... As the field attempts to drain all the kinetic<BR>
energy of the large mass, cooling it to absolute zero..."<BR>
<BR>
Just an idea or two...<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:35:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
Heck -<BR>
<BR>
IMHO a gun with grav that says (that's a bad guy, shoot it) is pretty darn<BR>
usefull.. I do not think that robots will start stragitizing and planning<BR>
tactics for a long long long time - it should just come down to a tree of<BR>
choices - give each hostile a threat rating (bigger gun = higher), range<BR>
rating (the shorter the range the higher) and softness rating (the easier to<BR>
kill the higher) - kill he who's threat+range+softness = highest first.<BR>
<BR>
Add to that a simple navagation system (go here, wait 3 min, go there), some<BR>
nice hardend armor, and a self defense software package (shoot and scoot -<BR>
go NOE - dodge dodge dodge) and you have a pretty effective, simple combat<BR>
system to assist the sophont troops on the ground.<BR>
<BR>
As long as it has very very very good IFF features, imagine dropping a few<BR>
thousand behind nme lines or into a battle. Let cry havoc and let slip the<BR>
Robots of War. :)<BR>
<BR>
Today ,we have 1/2 of the package - the Tomahawk is a great look at what is<BR>
to come IMHO.. just add the tree process, armor, IFF and gun, and watch out<BR>
world!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Talon<BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:55 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
IMHO you are getting a bit over exotic in your battlefield ideas. Yes some<BR>
battles are more complex than others and the weather and terrain my be<BR>
different but we train our soldiers to react in different situations, why<BR>
cant a robot be trained in the same fashion so to speak.  Sure there might<BR>
be times when innovation may change the tide of battle but most are along<BR>
the lines of "take that hill soldier". Especially in the OTU with the "good"<BR>
wars in limited warfare.  The /majority/ of the combat is at the very least<BR>
similar and most /Human/ soldiers will react the same way in given<BR>
circumstances, not all, but most. They are not doing brain surgery on the<BR>
battlefield.  They are trained to react in certain ways, and a robot given<BR>
particular circumstances will be able to react more quickly than a trained<BR>
soldier, you won't need to calculate every single possible scenario for<BR>
every situation before reacting. Humans don't do that and given the same<BR>
situation a well programmed robot won't either.  In its simple form it is<BR>
like a chess match.  Yes Kasparov can beat a computer but that computer can<BR>
beat the majority of human opponents easily, even knowing that is knows<BR>
chess at an expert level and having a book in front of you you will still<BR>
probably loose.   I will also concede that a chess match has a finite number<BR>
of possibilities, although numerous.  I am not a programmer, but it is<BR>
programmed with the rules and different strategies, it tries to determine<BR>
what the opponent is doing and try to figure out the best way to win.  This<BR>
is just an example of a simple AI that we have at current TL.  Obviously it<BR>
would be much more intricate and sophisticated for a combat robot.<BR>
<BR>
Corollary to capturing a robot, you can capture a human soldier and<BR>
interrogate him all you want and you may discover the way he will react in<BR>
given circumstances but is that going to change the reality of the<BR>
battlefield?  Knowing how your enemy is going to react is a big help but may<BR>
still not be enough to counter balance sheer numbers of an overwhelming and<BR>
well trained force, robot or human.  And there are probably ways to<BR>
safeguard against enemy capture with self-destruct and other methods to<BR>
short the brain or whatever if it falls into the wrong hands.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 5:24 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Ingo wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Douglas E. Berry schrieb:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Infiltration is the same thing.. thousands of decisions points that<BR>
>require<BR>
>>> intuition not logic.<BR>
><BR>
>>Ahm... IMHO what you mean is luck. "Intuition" IMHO is merely<BR>
>>sub-conscious thinking, and based on processes of the human brain that<BR>
>>developed in our evolutionary history.  If this subconsious thinking is<BR>
>>succesful, the survivor remembers it as "I just knew where to go". If<BR>
>>not, there is no survivor who can tell that his "intuition" told him to<BR>
>>run into that direction. As usual, YMMV.<BR>
><BR>
>Unfortunately, that's not what intuition is. Intuition is the ability to<BR>
act<BR>
>without apparent knowledge of the situation, or when information cannot be<BR>
>"weighed" effectively through the use of rational thought. The example that<BR>
>you've given is extremely narrow. It assumes a "death or life" situation in<BR>
>which only those whose intuition turns out to be correct will survive.<BR>
>That's not the way intuition works.<BR>
><BR>
>How do the robots act when they don't know anything at all? How do the<BR>
>robots act when all of their options look equally "good", or equally "bad"?<BR>
>Will the robots be able to make quick and decisive decisions in such<BR>
>situations?<BR>
><BR>
>To assume that all situations can be handled by logic is to assume that all<BR>
>possible situations in which a robot may find itself will be assigned a<BR>
>"weight" in advance. This could be due to prior programming, which is to<BR>
say<BR>
>that all possible situations are programmed in, but since a robot may find<BR>
>itself in an infinite number of situations this is simply an impossibility.<BR>
>On the other hand, a reasonable assumption would be that all of the<BR>
>components of a potential situation may be assigned a "weight" on the same<BR>
>"scale". The first flaw is that the components of a potential situation are<BR>
>infinite. The second flaw is that it would be extremely difficult to<BR>
>generate a scale in which all components in a potential situation can be<BR>
>measured with respect to each other.<BR>
><BR>
>Even if either method turned out to actually be possible (which would<BR>
>require infinite storage space and infinite processing), one captured unit<BR>
>could very well give up the secrets of the entire army. It would be a<BR>
>relatively simple matter for an opposing army to poke and prod a captured<BR>
>warbot to see how it would react in various situations. It would be<BR>
slightly<BR>
>more complicated, but still well within the realm of possibility, for an<BR>
>opposing army to crack open the warbot's brain and see all of various<BR>
>responses to external and internal stimuli.<BR>
><BR>
>In either case, these intuitionless robots would become pretty much<BR>
useless.<BR>
><BR>
>Even if you were willing to take the chance of your army being rendered<BR>
>useless, processing information takes time. A vast, but not infinite,<BR>
>library of standardized responses might allow robots to respond<BR>
effectively.<BR>
>However, a vast library of standardized responses could, and almost<BR>
>certainly would, slow reaction time significantly. This is where intuition<BR>
>(and creativity) comes in.<BR>
><BR>
>I think that this points to exactly what Doug and others have been saying<BR>
>from the beginning. Warbots without creativity cannot be expected to act in<BR>
>the same fashion as human soldiers in the same situations. Intuition can be<BR>
>seen as a form of creativity. Intuition, in this sense at least, is the<BR>
>ability to generate a plan of action without any knowledge or from<BR>
>information which cannot be "weighed" in a rational sense. Creativity<BR>
covers<BR>
>a lot more ground than that.<BR>
><BR>
>Imagination, creativity and resourcefulness are all very closely linked<BR>
>words and are all extremely useful, and are probably required, in a combat<BR>
>situation. Imagination, as the name suggests, is the ability to build a<BR>
>mental "image" of something which does not exist. This is why imagination<BR>
is<BR>
>a quality so important to artists. This can be simulated by both logic and<BR>
>experience but I have no reason to believe that either can function as a<BR>
>substitute for imagination. Logic, in such a situation, would require<BR>
>processing time. There is precious little time to spare during battles.<BR>
>Creativity, at least in the broad sense here, is the ability to convert the<BR>
>result of imagination into reality. An author or painter is said to possess<BR>
>creativity because he is able to convert what is imagined into tangible<BR>
>form. Resourcefulness is the ability to apply creativity to more<BR>
"practical"<BR>
>situations.<BR>
><BR>
>Personally, I would venture to add flexibility as a required trait but<BR>
>that's just me. Flexibility being defined here as the ability to give up on<BR>
>a course of action which seems perfectly rational and logical but is<BR>
>obviously not working out.<BR>
><BR>
>I think that the problem here is evidenced in the example you close your<BR>
>message with: battles are not simply two groups of combatants becoming<BR>
aware<BR>
>of each other and shooting until the other side is dead. Battles are<BR>
complex<BR>
>combinations of smaller individual "parts": ambushes (that is to say<BR>
>prepared traps for the enemy, not merely "sneak attacks"), creation of<BR>
>fortifications and the placement of support weapons, etc. None of these<BR>
>things are "standard" because battles on different types of terrain, in<BR>
>different weather conditions and seen as parts of larger campaigns make<BR>
each<BR>
>individual battle completely different and will require different tactics.<BR>
><BR>
>The type of battle you describe is not the "bread and butter" of warfare.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:18:23 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>bad that it was extremely difficult to walk. Instead of cute little crabs<BR>
>imagine tiny walking mines. Big swarms of them. Scary. Such robots could<BR>
>also be used to swarm and harass fortified troops. Sure you can sweep them<BR>
>with machineguns and flamethrowers, but their small and cheap nature allows<BR>
>you to keep pumping them out. Such swarming robots could be built so that<BR>
>they only attack personnel, or they could be robotic sappers intended to<BR>
>weaken physical defenses. I suppose that they could even be decoys (or some<BR>
>swarms might be cheaper and dumber decoys).<BR>
<BR>
  "The Mark VIII Mine-clearing-bot, "Stomper", has the dual advantages of<BR>
low-cost and ease of maintenance. The role of the big, thick feet are<BR>
obvious..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:18:57 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: re: leave it hanging?<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
><Response Origination: Wirral, Terra/Solomani Rim - Jump Lag 1 week><BR>
><BR>
>> at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than<BR>
>> >just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do<BR>
>> >mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
>><BR>
>>  IIRC, it's written by someone with what might be described as, uhm,<BR>
>>"interesting" ideas about conspiracies targetting his computers?<BR>
><BR>
>Go on, then, or are you going to leave it hanging?<BR>
<BR>
  Well, for the mass-illuminated there's:<BR>
        http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/article.cgi?1582<BR>
<BR>
  A few of the links lead to hilarious but supposedly serious "news"<BR>
items - it seems that the individual in question either has a need for<BR>
attention or is paranoid; some of the reports really do come across (to<BR>
me, YMMV) as either economical with the truth or very generous with <BR>
fictional additions.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:58:49 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production <BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing now very long (and pretty OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>ObTrav: Why did the Imperium stop making Kinunirs before the scheduled<BR>
>production run was finished? Why do they keep mothballing the AHL's?<BR>
<BR>
  Pack-rat-ism? Seriously, even though the AHL's possibly don't have<BR>
even war-time missions anymore, and their maintenance is unjustifiably<BR>
high w/o re-building, it's still cheap enough to keep them around just<BR>
in case. This wouldn't make sense if big changes in performance weren't<BR>
so slow to evolve as in the OTU (FWIW, the background wouldn't really<BR>
be playable and/or comprehensible over anything like the time-frame<BR>
presented if that weren't the case), but that is the situation we have.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:02:20 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:11:44 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Heads up for all UK travellers, Outland with Sean Connery is on Channel 5 at<BR>
> > 9pm tonight (Sunday).  If you haven't seen it yet this is a good Traveller<BR>
> > film, with some excellent setting ideas, an ok plot and some good ideas for<BR>
> > details on life on a company world.  Enjoy<BR>
> <BR>
> Just ignore the gory "vacuum exposure" shots, as they are pure BS.<BR>
<BR>
Oh come now.  Everyone knows that when you subject the human body to one<BR>
less atmosphere, it explodes-- just like all scuba divers that go down<BR>
below 30 feet *implode*.  The human body is very frail indeed :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Pay your electric bill in pennies.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 01:08:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>   ObTrav: hey, do you think that a career-based char-gen system might<BR>
> be of use in SF-RPG's?                                            :)<BR>
<BR>
Don't make my type up my Medieval Traveller chargen.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
boo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:35:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> So, if "The Bugs" from Starship Troopers is not a good analog for the<BR>
> Hivers, then what served as their inspiration.  Or, are they<BR>
> completely original?<BR>
<BR>
The Hivers appear to be original. The K'kree seem to be original (the<BR>
only race that even comes *close* are Niven's Puppeteers, and they<BR>
aren't agressive, nor militant about anything.<BR>
<BR>
Aslan have several possible large influences, notably C.J.Cherryh's<BR>
Hani, with maybe a *tiny* touch of Kzin.<BR>
<BR>
Vargr seem pretty original. <BR>
<BR>
And that pretty much covers the major non-human races. <BR>
<BR>
ps. I wish someone could get an Andre Norton SF sourcebook for GURPS,<BR>
I'd like to use Zacathans(reptile), Salariki(feline), T???? (bird-like<BR>
race), etc<BR>
<BR>
Salariki and Vargr would be a *real* interesting meeting. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:42:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Consider a minefield.<BR>
><BR>
> It's dumb, and works a *lot* better if it has supervision - command<BR>
> detonation mines, fire support to whack enemy units trying to ease<BR>
> their way through the field, etc.  It works very well to channel the<BR>
> enemy or for area denial.<BR>
<BR>
Just a note. It looks like mines (land and sea types) are going to wind<BR>
up about as "popular" as chemical weapons given the more recent<BR>
treaties. <BR>
<BR>
So they will be *available*, but use will be severely restricted, if<BR>
not politically impossible.<BR>
<BR>
> Think of military robots in a similar fashion.  It would be unwise to<BR>
> use them on their own, but as a support weapon and force multiplier<BR>
> they may make outstanding weapons.<BR>
><BR>
> I've developed a Plasma Bot for a CT TL 12 military, designed as a<BR>
> self-mobile, semi-autonomous squad support weapon.  You'd never send<BR>
> the poor thing out to play on it's own, any more than a K-9 Police<BR>
> Officer would send his police dog out on solo patrol.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, in *that* role, I can see robots. Especially if the combat zone is<BR>
"civilian free". <BR>
<BR>
I think the first models would be based on anti-sniper systems<BR>
currently under development. Their main mission would be returning fire<BR>
if the patrol came under fire. <BR>
<BR>
Firing rifle rounds from concealment, but having the robot return fire<BR>
with grenades aimed *very* accurately back along the trajectory of the<BR>
incoming rounds is going to seriously upset any attackers. :-)<BR>
<BR>
I'd say some sort of machinegun/gauss rifle, and a 40 mm grenade<BR>
launcher would be reasonable weapons to equip such a unit with. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 22:13:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ...<BR>
>>bad that it was extremely difficult to walk. Instead of cute little crabs<BR>
>>imagine tiny walking mines. Big swarms of them. Scary. Such robots could<BR>
>>also be used to swarm and harass fortified troops. Sure you can sweep them<BR>
>>with machineguns and flamethrowers, but their small and cheap nature allows<BR>
>>you to keep pumping them out. Such swarming robots could be built so that<BR>
>>they only attack personnel, or they could be robotic sappers intended to<BR>
>>weaken physical defenses. I suppose that they could even be decoys (or some<BR>
>>swarms might be cheaper and dumber decoys).<BR>
><BR>
>   "The Mark VIII Mine-clearing-bot, "Stomper", has the dual advantages of<BR>
> low-cost and ease of maintenance. The role of the big, thick feet are<BR>
> obvious..."<BR>
<BR>
The Mark IX anti-mine-clearing-bot-bot looks like a normal Mark VII<BR>
crab-mine. It's expolosive load is more more powerful and the "random<BR>
walk" process has an added "attractor" criteria for mine-clearing<BR>
robots. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:16:10 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Forine<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds writes: <BR>
<BR>
>Hans<BR>
><BR>
>>Since I'm working on a writeup of Forine for submission to JTAS Online,<BR>
>>I think I'd better wait until I've finished that to go have a look.<BR>
> <BR>
>Can we say opps.  I hope you like it.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
No, _I_ can say oops. I must have left my brains in my other suit yesterday.<BR>
It's ForNICE I'm doing a writeup on, not Forine. Sheesh...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
                "I am a jelly doughnut."<BR>
                        J.F. Kennedy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 01:25:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
>  "The Mark VIII Mine-clearing-bot, "Stomper", has the dual advantages of<BR>
>low-cost and ease of maintenance. The role of the big, thick feet are<BR>
>obvious..."<BR>
<BR>
Did I mention that these little guys are fast? :)<BR>
<BR>
Maybe the enemy threw in a couple of AT minecrabs, "just in case"? Maybe<BR>
they're all AT minecrabs? Then again, they might be decoys, intended to lure<BR>
your Stompers out into the open to be picked off, or simply intended to tie<BR>
up your Stompers while the real minecrabs are sent in from a different<BR>
direction.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 08:34:59 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
Sam,<BR>
<BR>
You must realize that by the end of the war daylight bombing was a<BR>
success.  Crew lost was down.  As the Allied forces kept destroying<BR>
vital war replacements there were fewer and fewer axis aircraft flying.<BR>
The Brits did not do daylight bombing and there losses were lower, but<BR>
so was their hit / destroyed ratios.<BR>
<BR>
I think you are mixing up stategic bombing with daylight bombing.<BR>
<BR>
Also, look at desert strom - strategic bombing was used there, but the<BR>
weapons were "smarter" and hit their targets more often.  I was watching<BR>
CNN when they showed a slide with the amount of bomb tonnage dropped to<BR>
destroy a target in WW2, vs Korea, vs Desert Storm.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Which nicely supports my argument against strategic bombing as doing<BR>
more<BR>
harm to your own people and their morale than the enemies.<BR>
<BR>
>Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 22:37:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Why would they go to Barnard's Star when there are more likely<BR>
> stars in the other direction.<BR>
<BR>
Even in a non-conspiracy-theory interpreation, you can imagine<BR>
answers. Modern thinking is that habitable worlds are unlikely to<BR>
exist around a binary star like Alpha C (I know it's technically a triple<BR>
but the third component doesn't count...); in the Traveller<BR>
universe this is wrong, but that might be due to Ancient terraforming.<BR>
Earth telescopes might have found evidence for planets in<BR>
Barnard's (that then turned out not to be habitable, of course.)<BR>
With a "literal" jump-1 drive both Barnards and Alpha C are two<BR>
jumps away; even on a Traveller hex map, you can imagine that<BR>
the prototype Terran jump drive was slightly less than pure<BR>
Jump-1, and had greater than normal fuel consumption, so<BR>
both system required staging.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, IMTU, the European Space Agency mounted the<BR>
expedition to Alpha C while the USSF went to Barnards;<BR>
the USSF were just slightly faster getting their staging area<BR>
set up, that's all.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:35:36 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
...<BR>
>>There was an interesting article on WW2 aircraft economics a couple<BR>
>>years ago in JMH; ISTR the point being made that while the US policy<BR>
>>maximized quantity production, it would have been a much less useful<BR>
>>approach if the specialty units (and this applies to tanks, too) had<BR>
>>not been being designed and produced elsewhere. There's a good case<BR>
>>to be made that the UK's production of lots of different designs (and<BR>
>>many of them also high-end, rather than "just" specialized) was really<BR>
>>an expression of the strengths of the industry created by the policies<BR>
>>of defense purchasing in the `30's - smallish orders from multiple<BR>
>>vendors with lots of design expertise.<BR>
><BR>
>But didn't the wide variety and lack of standardization wind up being part<BR>
>of the downfall of the Wehrmacht at the same time? And didn't the extreme<BR>
<BR>
  Largely a different situation - besides a seeming predeliction for all<BR>
sorts of neat designs being produced for their own sakes, the Germans<BR>
most certainly did need to keep factories churning out the current item<BR>
at maximum rates just to meet current needs, and thus the profusion of<BR>
different designs from different companies, complexes, or foreign pre-war<BR>
inventories. Provision of spares wasn't always possible.<BR>
<BR>
  But the availability of specialty air-craft hulls is a huge matter, and<BR>
it's not always the obvious ones that count. Sure, if your fighters are<BR>
far and away superior then you have to work to lose, but good enough and<BR>
not too expensive are workable slogans. But if your flying boats and<BR>
maritime patrollers don't have reach, or reliability, or survivability,<BR>
then you've got problems. And if your recon craft can't be intercepted<BR>
then deception in war-time becomes much easier - up to a/c attrition<BR>
rates (vs stock-piles) you can play mind-games by upping daylight photo-<BR>
recon to suspicion-creating levels _just because you want to_ :><BR>
<BR>
>specialization hurt a lot of British units at the beginning of the war.<BR>
>("No, these are infantry tanks. They shoot at infantry and don't need AP<BR>
>rounds. And these are cruiser tanks, they shoot at tanks and don't need HE<BR>
>rounds.") This approach also caused trouble for the U.S. by the end of the<BR>
>war with the insistence of the panners that TD's fight tanks and tanks shoot<BR>
>at infantry and never crossover. Nice theory, lousy reality.<BR>
<BR>
  Those are all examples of doctrine (/doctrinal failings), although<BR>
arguably some of them were caused by limitations on available hard-<BR>
ware. If, OTOH, the British army had accepted delivery of inappropriate<BR>
vehicles without input on what was to be delivered, then the result<BR>
would have been due to manufacturers over-specialization.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: I'll bet that the Rim War involved a _lot_ of unpleasant<BR>
learning experiences for the 3I - having to slog through their own<BR>
hinterlands to the "enemy" border likely wasn't much allowed for.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:30:30 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> At 7:51 -0400 26/5/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > >Eris, at the risk of heresy, have a look at 7th Sea. It's more than<BR>
> > >just the Swashbuckling game it makes out to be. It can do<BR>
> > >mercantile/intrigue/3 Musketeers as well...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  IIRC, it's written by someone with what might be described as, uhm,<BR>
> >"interesting" ideas about conspiracies targetting his computers?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Go on, then, or are you going to leave it hanging?<BR>
<BR>
It was written by John Wick who had an email virus wipe out some of his<BR>
files.<BR>
<BR>
He then made the claim that the virus had been targetted at him personally,<BR>
by some disgruntled person, specifically to destroy those files, which was<BR>
reported in Pyramid and in his own rant on his web-page.<BR>
<BR>
While it's theoretically possible that someone would write a virus designed<BR>
to take out an authors work, one has to note that it is the users fault if<BR>
they haven't secured their computer against email viruses, and it's not a<BR>
particularly likely scenario.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:34:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Skyport Authority<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone confirm who wrote the original article on the SPA and the <BR>
JTAS number in the old paper editions?<BR>
<BR>
ISTR that it was John Ford, but I can't remember or find my copy...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:34:38 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
At 8:00 AM -0400 6/4/00, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  > The Imperial protectorate<BR>
>  > didn't occur until after the Zhodani and Sword Worlders were<BR>
>  > able to capitalize on the situation during the Fifth Frontier<BR>
>  > War.<BR>
><BR>
>Then what period is Broadsword referring to?  Before or<BR>
>after the 5FW?  If after, it seems to be in conflict with other<BR>
>canon.  If before, then it is merely out of date.<BR>
<BR>
It is before, so it doesn't conflict with Behind the Claw....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, it does, on the original point, reperesent a multi system<BR>
polity whenever it occurs.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:04:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
>IMHO you are getting a bit over exotic in your battlefield ideas.<BR>
>Yes some battles are more complex than others and the weather and terrain<BR>
my be<BR>
>different but we train our soldiers to react in different situations, why<BR>
>cant a robot be trained in the same fashion so to speak.<BR>
<BR>
No, I'm not getting overly exotic in my "battlefield ideas". I just have an<BR>
appreciation for the complexity of the battlefield.<BR>
<BR>
We train our soldiers to react in very broad ways. Human imagination,<BR>
creativity and resourcefulness, the natural byproduct of millions of years<BR>
of evolution, all combine to do the rest. Think of an red ball. Right now<BR>
you have that red ball in your head. If I pressed you on it, you could<BR>
probably tell me what texture it has, what it feels like. You may not have<BR>
remembered any specific ball from your past, but you were able to imagine a<BR>
ball.<BR>
<BR>
The robots we are talking about can't do that. They can't imagine on the<BR>
spur of the moment like you just did. That's what it means to be<BR>
non-creative. Hopefully, you'll be able to see what the ramifications are.<BR>
Soldiers may learn how to handle certain situations, and then apply these<BR>
lessons on the battlefield in an effectively infinite variety of ways.<BR>
That's what imagination, creativity and resourcefulness allow you to do.<BR>
<BR>
Soldiers are trained by being given certain tools and certain exercises<BR>
which then form a core of knowledge. This works because soldiers are people.<BR>
They have the capacity to intuit, to imagine and to create. People are<BR>
naturally resourceful, to some degree. The type of robot brains we are<BR>
talking about are not, as has been said by Ingo himself.<BR>
<BR>
>Sure there might be times when innovation may change the tide of battle but<BR>
most are<BR>
>along the lines of "take that hill soldier".<BR>
<BR>
If you think that I was saying that innovation may change the tide of<BR>
battle, then I really think that you should reread my post. That's not what<BR>
I was saying at all. I was not saying that moments of extreme imagination or<BR>
creativity may cause breakthroughs. What I was saying was if you expect<BR>
warbots to be able to act in the same fashion as human soldiers, then they<BR>
have to have the ability to intuit, to imagine and to create. They have to<BR>
have the ability to be resourceful.<BR>
<BR>
We're apparently talking about two different things here.<BR>
<BR>
>Especially in the OTU with the "good" wars in limited warfare.  The<BR>
/majority/<BR>
>of the combat is at the very least similar and most /Human/ soldiers will<BR>
react<BR>
>the same way in given circumstances, not all, but most.<BR>
<BR>
Most human soldiers will only react the same way as a general rule in very<BR>
limited circumstances, usually when certain biological processes take over.<BR>
Even then I'm cagey about saying everyone will react the same. Beyond that,<BR>
what individual soldiers may do in a given situation is totally up for<BR>
grabs, unless those soldiers are trained to resort to something other than<BR>
their own creativity. This has happened from time to time in various real<BR>
world wars, usually with disastrous results.<BR>
<BR>
>They are not doing brain surgery on the battlefield.<BR>
<BR>
Nor did I say that soldiers are performing brain surgery, nor did I say that<BR>
what they do even requires conscious thought.<BR>
<BR>
>They are trained to react in certain ways, and a robot given<BR>
>particular circumstances will be able to react more quickly than a trained<BR>
>soldier, you won't need to calculate every single possible scenario for<BR>
>every situation before reacting.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the type of intelligence we're talking about would require the<BR>
robot to calculate every single possible scenario before reacting. That's<BR>
precisely why computers can be programmed to be good at chess. They can<BR>
think of every possible situation which may emerge from every one of its<BR>
moves and every potential move it might make after that.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that there are only so many variables to take into<BR>
consideration in each move of a chess game. The game of chess is structured<BR>
in such a way that a good deal of time can be spent on each move. There is<BR>
an infinite quantity of variables on a battlefied, and the structure of a<BR>
battle is not such that a good deal of time can be spent thinking about each<BR>
"move".<BR>
<BR>
>Humans don't do that<BR>
<BR>
Which was exactly my point.<BR>
<BR>
>and given the same situation a well programmed robot won't either.<BR>
<BR>
If it's programmed to rule out potential solutions to a problem, then it's<BR>
going to be incredibly predictable. So predictable, in fact, that such a<BR>
robot's value in combat will be extremely limited.<BR>
<BR>
>In its simple form it is like a chess match. Yes Kasparov can beat a<BR>
computer but that<BR>
>computer can beat the majority of human opponents easily, even knowing that<BR>
is knows<BR>
>chess at an expert level and having a book in front of you you will still<BR>
>probably loose.<BR>
<BR>
No. A battlefield is not like a chess match. Chess does not have an infinite<BR>
number of variables and the rules of the game can be easily broken down into<BR>
simple logical rules which can be "weighed" against each other.<BR>
<BR>
>I will also concede that a chess match has a finite number of<BR>
possibilities,<BR>
>although numerous.<BR>
<BR>
The difference between numerous and infinite is absolutely mind boggling.<BR>
You can program a<BR>
<BR>
>I am not a programmer, but it is programmed with the rules and different<BR>
>strategies, it tries to determine what the opponent is doing and try to<BR>
figure<BR>
>out the best way to win.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and chess (for a programmer) has a lot of advantages over a<BR>
battlefield. There are four big ones I can think of without straining my own<BR>
brain:<BR>
<BR>
1.) A person playing chess may reasonably expected to do only two things:<BR>
try to put his opponent's king into checkmate, and try to keep his own king<BR>
from being put into checkmate. These objectives may be quantified.<BR>
<BR>
2.) The possible moves which can be made at any given time, in any given<BR>
situation are finite. The number of responses which can be made to specific<BR>
moves are not only finite, but relatively small. The value of these moves in<BR>
relation to each other can be easily quantified.<BR>
<BR>
3.) Certain broad patterns of moves in combination exist, are well defined,<BR>
and their strengths and weaknesses in relation to each other are well known<BR>
and can be quantified.<BR>
<BR>
4.) In a chess game, time constraints are relatively loose. A fair amount of<BR>
time can be given to individual moves.<BR>
<BR>
The battlefield, unfortunately, is not such a simple and limited place.<BR>
<BR>
1.) In a battlefield situation, the objectives may change drastically from<BR>
battle to battle. That's not exotic or bizarre, that's the very nature of<BR>
warfare. In one battle, the robots may be required to take a hill. A week<BR>
later, the same robots may be required to harass enemy units in order to<BR>
slow their advance to another battle. Two days later, the same robots may be<BR>
required to engage in house to house fighting. Five days later, the same<BR>
robots may be called upon to destroy enemy supply trucks in a caravan. Two<BR>
days later the same robots may be called upon to flush entrenched partisans<BR>
out of hiding. The possible number of objectives is effectively infinite.<BR>
Even a very limited set would be difficult, if not impossible, to quantify.<BR>
<BR>
2.) The number of possible movements which can be made at any given time is<BR>
effectively infinite. Even if narrowed down, the number of movements which<BR>
can be made is astonishingly large. This is further complicated by the<BR>
notion that the objectives in individual battles are also infinitely<BR>
variable, so different moves may be required. Any limitations you place on<BR>
the number of possible moves may come back to haunt you. You may not want<BR>
your robots to retreat, for example. What happens when your cargo vessel<BR>
gets destroyed in orbit and you only have the robots you happen to have on<BR>
the surface to complete your mission? Again, possible movements would be<BR>
difficult to quantify with respect to each other. After all, if the<BR>
objectives are completely different, individual moves would have to be<BR>
weighted differently depending on the situation.<BR>
<BR>
3.) Certain broad patterns of combinations of movements exist, but a battle<BR>
doesn't follow the structure of a game of chess. A certain broad pattern may<BR>
be employed in order to get the enemy to expose his position, allowing<BR>
precise targeting by orbital satellites. A certain broad pattern may be used<BR>
to lull the enemy into believing something which is untrue. A certain broad<BR>
pattern may be used to buy time, or to allow the placement of charges in a<BR>
city's factories. The possibilities are effectively limitless. Along these<BR>
lines, it would be difficult to assign values to all the possible<BR>
combinations, given the infinite number of possible objectives and<BR>
responses.<BR>
<BR>
4.) On the battlefield every second counts, which puts a maximum ceiling on<BR>
the amount of processing which can be done.<BR>
<BR>
So, let's keep the chess analogy alive here. Imagine that Deep Blue's<BR>
programmers have to program a computer which can not only beat Gary Kasparov<BR>
at chess, but:<BR>
<BR>
* Identify the various pieces in a mass produced chess set.<BR>
* Identify the various pieces in a handcarved marble chess set.<BR>
* Know when my cousin is in need of an emotional boost... and lose to him<BR>
convincingly in order to cheer him up.<BR>
* Play Go.<BR>
* Play Paper, Rock, Scissors.<BR>
* Play Tic Tac Toe.<BR>
* Play poker and bluff convincingly.<BR>
* Learn to play Axis & Allies without being programmed to do so.<BR>
* Walk across the room.<BR>
* Cook a hearty meal.<BR>
* To know when it is appropriate to do each of these things.<BR>
<BR>
...and an infinite number of other tasks. At that point, of course, you'd<BR>
have something approaching sentience, which nobody is claiming that these<BR>
robots have.<BR>
<BR>
>This is just an example of a simple AI that we have at current TL.<BR>
Obviously it<BR>
>would be much more intricate and sophisticated for a combat robot.<BR>
<BR>
The basic ideas, which are all we are talking about, wouldn't be much more<BR>
intricate and sophisticated than this. That's the whole point. Maybe an<BR>
Imperial computer could beat an Imperial chess master more quickly and more<BR>
efficiently. Maybe one of Ingo's warbots is really more accurate than an<BR>
Imperial marine. Unless the robot has a measure of creativity it's<BR>
predictable, which makes it considerably less useful.<BR>
<BR>
>Corollary to capturing a robot, you can capture a human soldier and<BR>
>interrogate him all you want and you may discover the way he will react in<BR>
>given circumstances but is that going to change the reality of the<BR>
>battlefield?<BR>
<BR>
No. Human beings have the capacity to act in an infinite variety of ways,<BR>
because they have creativity. Figuring out how one sentient creature may act<BR>
in a given situation is completely useless, because six other sentient<BR>
creatures may react in totally different ways. Figuring out how carbon copy<BR>
robots (with limited capabilities) may act in a given situation renders the<BR>
robots considerably less useful.<BR>
<BR>
>Knowing how your enemy is going to react is a big help but may<BR>
>still not be enough to counter balance sheer numbers of an overwhelming and<BR>
>well trained force, robot or human.<BR>
<BR>
Knowing *precisely* how your enemy will react to a given situation could<BR>
very well be enough to counterbalance an overwhelming and competent force.<BR>
After all, if you know that your robotic enemies will always do the exact<BR>
same thing in a given situation then you can stack the deck in your favor<BR>
and cause that situation to occur as much, or as little, as you like. That's<BR>
pretty simple.<BR>
<BR>
Before you respond to this segment of my post, keep in mind that you've<BR>
already limited the capabilities of Ingo's robots, and as a result have just<BR>
made them considerably less useful. At this point, you're saying that Ingo's<BR>
robots are only useful if they have the advantage of sheer numbers. Even<BR>
that is debatable, because if I understand precisely how they will react, I<BR>
can lead them into any number of death traps and ambushes.<BR>
<BR>
Still, I will certainly concede that sometimes vast quantities of<BR>
non-creative robots will be enough to sway the outcome of a battle in a<BR>
desired direction. That's not what I'm arguing against. I am arguing against<BR>
the notion that an effective warbot force intended to take the place of<BR>
human soldiers on the battlefield is utterly impossible without the ability<BR>
to give these robots intuition, imagination and creativity.<BR>
<BR>
I do believe that warbots without creativity would prove to be extremely<BR>
useful on the battlefield. I do believe that such devices would fill<BR>
specific niches and they simply could not serve as a replacement for<BR>
creative sentient creatures.<BR>
<BR>
>And there are probably ways to safeguard against enemy capture with<BR>
self-destruct<BR>
>and other methods to short the brain or whatever if it falls into the wrong<BR>
hands.<BR>
<BR>
Anything which can fail will fail eventually. There are a lot of things<BR>
which can happen to a warbot. Some of these may cause such defenses to fail.<BR>
It will happen eventually.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2551<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (rly-yc01.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.33]) by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:08:17 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:08:01 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA71300;<BR>
	Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:07:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:07:02 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id DAA71257<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:07:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:07:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006050707.DAA71257@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2551<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2552</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/5/00 8:07:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 5 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2552<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
Re: non-SF Games<BR>
Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
Warbots<BR>
Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
THUDDD 12<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:06:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The Mark IX anti-mine-clearing-bot-bot looks like a normal Mark VII<BR>
>crab-mine. It's expolosive load is more more powerful and the "random<BR>
>walk" process has an added "attractor" criteria for mine-clearing<BR>
>robots. <BR>
<BR>
Good answer, Leonard, good answer! :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 23:31:31 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote<BR>
<BR>
> shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
> >ObTrav: hey, do you think that a career-based char-gen system might be<BR>
> >of use in SF-RPG's?                                            :)<BR>
<BR>
> What a unique idea!!! Why hasn't *anyone* every thought of that before? :-J<BR>
<BR>
Because the very idea of characterizing people by what they<BR>
do for a living is so obviously a bad idea. Think of all the<BR>
work it would be generating descriptions of all those different<BR>
'classes' of people. Moreover this sort of idea presupposes<BR>
limited mobility between 'classes'. As such it would only work<BR>
well in a socially stratified society, possibly a feudal system<BR>
with nobility or some other sort of caste assignments.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously such an archaic system of government could never exist <BR>
in the future because, as we all know, supreme executive power<BR>
is derived from a mandate from the masses. Even if it did no one <BR>
would want to play in such a dumb setting. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:52:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
From: Shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Oops, I forgot to mention two of the "Function Rooms" are outfitted <BR>
>as fully functional brigs..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Does this include torture equipment?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 22:36:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Outland on TV (UK)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:11:44 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > Heads up for all UK travellers, Outland with Sean Connery is on Channel <BR>
> 5 at<BR>
>> > 9pm tonight (Sunday).  If you haven't seen it yet this is a good <BR>
> Traveller<BR>
>> > film, with some excellent setting ideas, an ok plot and some good ideas <BR>
> for<BR>
>> > details on life on a company world.  Enjoy<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Just ignore the gory "vacuum exposure" shots, as they are pure BS.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh come now.  Everyone knows that when you subject the human body to one<BR>
> less atmosphere, it explodes-- just like all scuba divers that go down<BR>
> below 30 feet *implode*.  The human body is very frail indeed :)<BR>
<BR>
More to the point, look at the way divers explode of if ascend too<BR>
quickly from 30 feet down (actually 34 feet, but who's counting).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:23:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
A couple of good points have been raised.<BR>
<BR>
Firstly, the 'moving minefield' theory of warbots is probably valid, but<BR>
there are a couple of social objections to this.<BR>
<BR>
Number one is that armed robots have been a no-no for the Imperium since the<BR>
very early days (?the Shudasham Concords?). The analogy to the international<BR>
pressure against landmines is well made - warbots may be bad at telling<BR>
civilians from troops, and that is a recepie for winning the war but losing<BR>
the peace due to third-party pressure.<BR>
<BR>
Number two is that the Imperium is strongly against total war. War has<BR>
rules, and one of the big Imperial rules is against long term social and<BR>
economic damage. A couple of programming glitches and you could have a<BR>
number of massacres on your hands - and you can't arrest, try and then hang<BR>
a robot.<BR>
<BR>
A corrolary to this is that minefields themselves are probably strongly<BR>
discouraged in the Imperium. If you are looking for a good definition of<BR>
'long term social and economic damage', then widespread minefields are<BR>
probably it (editorial note : other people can talk for their own countries,<BR>
but I feel Australia's moves against the banning of land mines to be a<BR>
disgrace. We dont need them for any military reason, and the availability of<BR>
mines means they will be used in uncontrolled civil wars. Farmers will be<BR>
having their legs blown off in Bosnia for the next fifty years. Forgive my<BR>
French, but c'est mal, et c'nest pas la guerre).<BR>
<BR>
These pressures against warbots could lead to them being outside the 'box'<BR>
of Imperial military thought. This could be another reason with the Imperial<BR>
unease with the Zhodani - their use of warbots is another thing (along with<BR>
psionics) that makes them 'not us'.<BR>
<BR>
Thus thought on warbots could be theoretical - they are one of the things<BR>
that just 'arent done'.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 13:38:58 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Clothing/fashion designers...<BR>
>     who are the big names in fashion in the Trav universe/s? This came<BR>
> to me watching M:I2...is Armarni the shortend version of a Vilani name?<BR>
> <BR>
>     'they shot my Armani....<load grenade launcher...blam><BR>
<BR>
I wrote up the Turiikill School of Fashion and Textiles, but my<BR>
assumption was that the Mega Corporations were the kings of fashion. I<BR>
can't see Vilani fashion changing much over the years. I expect it would<BR>
take centuries for there to be any radical change in the cloths of the<BR>
Vilani, which would mean fashion houses would have to be well known and<BR>
long standing, otherwise no Vilani would buy fashionable clothes from you.<BR>
<BR>
Just MHO but YMMV,<BR>
<BR>
Ewan<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 06:42:27 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
on 6/5/00 5:23 AM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au wrote:<BR>
> A corrolary to this is that minefields themselves are probably strongly<BR>
> discouraged in the Imperium. If you are looking for a good definition of<BR>
> 'long term social and economic damage', then widespread minefields are<BR>
> probably it (editorial note : other people can talk for their own countries,<BR>
> but I feel Australia's moves against the banning of land mines to be a<BR>
> disgrace. We dont need them for any military reason, and the availability of<BR>
> mines means they will be used in uncontrolled civil wars. Farmers will be<BR>
> having their legs blown off in Bosnia for the next fifty years. Forgive my<BR>
> French, but c'est mal, et c'nest pas la guerre).<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Not to argue in favor of land mines, but the above discounts the fact that<BR>
modern mines often have a limited life span by design, and are rendered<BR>
inert after a certain period of time has elapsed, thus negating the argument<BR>
that they are a hazard far into the future.<BR>
<BR>
The issue really is that mines are so terribly useful, both for area denial<BR>
and as a force multiplier.  The US employment of mines in Korea is a good<BR>
example.  They provide a highly cost effective deterrent to any southward<BR>
movement by North Korean forces.<BR>
<BR>
In the Imperium, one can imagine the use of non-persistant mine fields for<BR>
tactical operations.  These would be composed of simple mines who's<BR>
explosive component breaks down and becomes inert after a certain period of<BR>
time (a week, month, whatever).  The Imperium would certainly have an<BR>
interest in limiting the active life of such mines to perhaps 30 days, but<BR>
other than that, there is no reason to limit their use.  Is having a leg<BR>
blown off by a mine really any more horrific than losing the same leg to an<BR>
artillery shell?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 06:50:47 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
on 6/5/00 5:38 AM, Ewan Quibell at E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I wrote up the Turiikill School of Fashion and Textiles, but my<BR>
> assumption was that the Mega Corporations were the kings of fashion. I<BR>
> can't see Vilani fashion changing much over the years. I expect it would<BR>
> take centuries for there to be any radical change in the cloths of the<BR>
> Vilani, which would mean fashion houses would have to be well known and<BR>
> long standing, otherwise no Vilani would buy fashionable clothes from you.<BR>
<BR>
True, but the Solomani? One would imagine that buying what the megacorps<BR>
produce is the ultimate in 'buying off the rack'. Social suicide.  Nothing<BR>
expresses ones social status so well as the clothes one wears.  The upper<BR>
echelons will, no doubt continue to seek out the rare and expensive.  And<BR>
mass produced clothing, must of necessity by designed for some mythical<BR>
'average' person. How can this compare to the fit of a ensemble tailored<BR>
specifically to hide the faults and accentuate the features of the well<BR>
dressed bon vivant.<BR>
<BR>
Billions of Vilani marching in lockstep, all buying from the same vendors,<BR>
ewww!  Imagine if all people were forced to wear only clothing from Sears...<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:52:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
I think that this whole milbot thing is off in the wrong direction. The idea<BR>
shouldn't be to use milbots as one for one replacements for sophont<BR>
soldiers. The idea should be to make individual milbots more effective than<BR>
individual soldiers. Don't play the intuitive and creativity game because<BR>
only a sophont robot can win that. Instead if you're fielding milbots make<BR>
the enemy play to your strengths. Which are...?<BR>
<BR>
1. Mobility-if you're talking grav technology higher speed. With sonar or<BR>
radar or ladar a robot should be able to move NOE much faster than an<BR>
unaugmented human. And the robot should be able to carry a higher load. And<BR>
there is no need to sleep, carry food, etc. Endurance is a factor of the<BR>
kind of power source. Fusion last forever as far as this kind of use goes.<BR>
Energy cells mean that your robot has a definite mission duration limit,<BR>
which may be extended with solar augmentation or other recharge options.<BR>
<BR>
2. Firepower - the higher load carrying capacity of the robot should be used<BR>
to field heavier weapons. The no artillery support should be superfluous. A<BR>
milrobot should be its own artillery support. So you don't let a squad of<BR>
sophonts sucker you into trading shots. You locate them and hit them with<BR>
heavy weapons from outside their weapon range.<BR>
<BR>
3. Tactics - You limit the option needed for the mission. If the mission is<BR>
find the enemy and kill it, what's the problem? You send a bird size flying<BR>
eye through the jungle in the example. When it sees the enemy the full size<BR>
milbots carpet bomb the area with anti-personnel weapons and it's over. Why<BR>
would anyone want to build an expensive warbot and then arm it with the<BR>
weapons a living soldier would carry? Use specialized models for recon,<BR>
assault, support. Remember the idea isn't to have a fair fight. It's to win.<BR>
<BR>
4. Armor - It goes without saying that these things should be heavily<BR>
armored. Small arms should be no threat. If the enemy troops have anti-armor<BR>
weapons then you'll lose some robots, but they'd only be vulnerable if the<BR>
living soldiers saw them first. If the robots see the fire team first they<BR>
just make sure everything in the target area dies.<BR>
<BR>
Don't think The Phantom Menace here, think Terminator.<BR>
<BR>
Remember both the Hivers and the Zho use warbots. Both still have sophont<BR>
soldiers. So obviously there's a place for both in your battle plan.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 06:57:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Also, not to argue for or agenst Landmines -<BR>
<BR>
There is a very intresting article in this months SciAm. It points out that<BR>
assult rifles (small arms) cause many many more civilian casulitiys then<BR>
land mines - during and after the conflicts today - one of the articles is<BR>
at http://www.sciam.com/2000/0600issue/0600boutwell.html . There are several<BR>
others on this topic in the off-line version of the magazine.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:42 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 6/5/00 5:23 AM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au wrote:<BR>
> A corrolary to this is that minefields themselves are probably strongly<BR>
> discouraged in the Imperium. If you are looking for a good definition of<BR>
> 'long term social and economic damage', then widespread minefields are<BR>
> probably it (editorial note : other people can talk for their own<BR>
countries,<BR>
> but I feel Australia's moves against the banning of land mines to be a<BR>
> disgrace. We dont need them for any military reason, and the availability<BR>
of<BR>
> mines means they will be used in uncontrolled civil wars. Farmers will be<BR>
> having their legs blown off in Bosnia for the next fifty years. Forgive my<BR>
> French, but c'est mal, et c'nest pas la guerre).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Not to argue in favor of land mines, but the above discounts the fact that<BR>
modern mines often have a limited life span by design, and are rendered<BR>
inert after a certain period of time has elapsed, thus negating the argument<BR>
that they are a hazard far into the future.<BR>
<BR>
The issue really is that mines are so terribly useful, both for area denial<BR>
and as a force multiplier.  The US employment of mines in Korea is a good<BR>
example.  They provide a highly cost effective deterrent to any southward<BR>
movement by North Korean forces.<BR>
<BR>
In the Imperium, one can imagine the use of non-persistant mine fields for<BR>
tactical operations.  These would be composed of simple mines who's<BR>
explosive component breaks down and becomes inert after a certain period of<BR>
time (a week, month, whatever).  The Imperium would certainly have an<BR>
interest in limiting the active life of such mines to perhaps 30 days, but<BR>
other than that, there is no reason to limit their use.  Is having a leg<BR>
blown off by a mine really any more horrific than losing the same leg to an<BR>
artillery shell?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:04:04 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:52:06<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Lady Sally McGee Class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
>At 01:19 AM 6/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>ok, for those folks who believe in nice subtle starship designs<BR>
>>and truth in advertising, the good folks at Maximus Interstellar <BR>
>>unveil the Lady Sally McGee class Pleasure Liner<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, my...   Just imagine a fight between this ship and one owned by<BR>
Louisa<BR>
>Dem-Five of the Velvet Fist (Buck Godot).<BR>
<BR>
>I'll have to write so new rules to cover the boarding action in ACQ.<BR>
>Gosh-darn, that means I'll have to do some more research. :P<BR>
>- -- <BR>
<BR>
>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
>"Penguin Boy,  Righter of wrongs, hero to millions, &<BR>
>friend to Flash Gordon."   - Legate Legion on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Why did I just have this disturbing vision of 100's of penguins greeting<BR>
hapless victims to the Starship Anthrax? (Other than my twisted, sick<BR>
sense of humor? <G>)<BR>
<BR>
"Welcome to the Starship Anthrax!  I am Zoot. Waaak!(noise penguins make)"<BR>
<BR>
SPLUUUUUUUUUTTTTTT!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Aw man!  A self fragged keyboard!<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:56:03 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 2:12 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snipped>><BR>
>I do believe that warbots without creativity would prove to be extremely<BR>
>useful on the battlefield. I do believe that such devices would fill<BR>
>specific niches and they simply could not serve as a replacement for<BR>
>creative sentient creatures.<BR>
><BR>
>>And there are probably ways to safeguard against enemy capture with<BR>
>self-destruct<BR>
>>and other methods to short the brain or whatever if it falls into the<BR>
wrong<BR>
>hands.<BR>
><BR>
>Anything which can fail will fail eventually. There are a lot of things<BR>
>which can happen to a warbot. Some of these may cause such defenses to<BR>
fail.<BR>
>It will happen eventually.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
My previous post wasn't aimed specifically at you Chris, but it was easier<BR>
to clip some of your thread to focus my response, no disrespect intended.  I<BR>
don't think they should or could "replace" the organic soldier but augment<BR>
them.  They will be useful tools to add to the squad.  We are just arguing<BR>
over how smart is the robot.  We can agree to disagree on how "intelligent"<BR>
they will be at higher tech levels.  I am not the one degrading the ability<BR>
of the Robots, that is canon limiting the AI, if anything I think they<BR>
should be less limited.  There have been lots of movies about the renegade<BR>
newly sentient cyborg or robot and we can all agree I think that the<BR>
potential for a free thinking warbot can have some serious ramifications.<BR>
My whole point was that the OTU disregarded Moore's Law and the tech<BR>
advances of computing and AI.  I think that computers and robots in the<BR>
future will have much greater abilities and will be very simple to use.  We<BR>
are still taking baby steps with regard to AI.  I am not sure if you want to<BR>
incorporate a positronic brain into your TU, but the idea is that it will be<BR>
a very close approximation of the sentient mind, at least the human mind.<BR>
You might not be able to distinguish between true intelligence and just<BR>
really good programming at high tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:10:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
>Plus, if my 98G colleagues are anywhere nearby, the gruntbots' comm<BR>
>links will be:<BR>
>a) well and truly jammed (or, if possible, spoofed), or<BR>
>b) found via direction-finding and either evaded or targeted for<BR>
>indirect fire assets.  (I know the original scenario claimed that<BR>
>indirect fire assets were unavailable; however, any modern army that<BR>
>would commit ground forces without any fire support at all is criminally<BR>
>negligent.)<BR>
<BR>
Question: Can meson communicators be jammed? Can they be traced with<BR>
direction finding equipment? If not I see them as the premier warbot<BR>
controlling conduits.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:37:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> Consider a minefield.<BR>
>><BR>
>> It's dumb, and works a *lot* better if it has supervision - command<BR>
>> detonation mines, fire support to whack enemy units trying to ease<BR>
>> their way through the field, etc.  It works very well to channel the<BR>
>> enemy or for area denial.<BR>
><BR>
>Just a note. It looks like mines (land and sea types) are going to wind<BR>
>up about as "popular" as chemical weapons given the more recent<BR>
>treaties.<BR>
><BR>
>So they will be *available*, but use will be severely restricted, if<BR>
>not politically impossible.<BR>
><BR>
>> Think of military robots in a similar fashion.  It would be unwise to<BR>
>> use them on their own, but as a support weapon and force multiplier<BR>
>> they may make outstanding weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting analogy. I believe that we need to define the parameters of our<BR>
discussion. Under the Imperial Rules of War (which only apply for armed<BR>
conflicts ***between*** Imperial member worlds any kind of milrobot would be<BR>
prohibited. Armed robots are simply not allowed within the Imperium (OTU),<BR>
very much like mines might be prohibited in the near future.<BR>
<BR>
That said, just as a prohibition on mines won't prevent outlaw countries<BR>
from using them, a Megacorp, or backwater Imperial world might field<BR>
milrobots anyway, if they think they can get away with it. Of course this<BR>
does not apply to either the Hivers or the Zho, neither of who gives a rats<BR>
you-know-what about the Imperial Rules of War.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>> I've developed a Plasma Bot for a CT TL 12 military, designed as a<BR>
>> self-mobile, semi-autonomous squad support weapon.  You'd never send<BR>
>> the poor thing out to play on it's own, any more than a K-9 Police<BR>
>> Officer would send his police dog out on solo patrol.<BR>
><BR>
>Ok, in *that* role, I can see robots. Especially if the combat zone is<BR>
>"civilian free".<BR>
<BR>
This may not be applicable. I don't see the Joes sending war robots in to a<BR>
zone with civilians to mass slaughter. The Hivers might be a different<BR>
story. (And I certainly hope that the K'kree never get their hands on<BR>
milrobots capable of mass destruction.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:42:09 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:52 AM 06/05/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Don't think The Phantom Menace here, think Terminator.<BR>
<BR>
Or Ogre or Bolo...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 15:43:36 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12<BR>
<BR>
Alright, what's happened? I turn my back for a month to have exams, and<BR>
an entire design competition disappears off the face of the planet. <BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
- -- <BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Nick Bradbeer, Hatfield College, Durham, England<BR>
  nickb@ndirect.co.uk<BR>
  www.nickb.ndirect.co.uk<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
     You have dialled an imaginary number - please<BR>
 rotate your phone through ninety degrees and try again.<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 07:48:05 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
on 6/5/00 6:57 AM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Also, not to argue for or agenst Landmines -<BR>
> <BR>
> There is a very intresting article in this months SciAm. It points out that<BR>
> assult rifles (small arms) cause many many more civilian casulitiys then<BR>
> land mines - during and after the conflicts today - one of the articles is<BR>
> at http://www.sciam.com/2000/0600issue/0600boutwell.html . There are several<BR>
> others on this topic in the off-line version of the magazine.<BR>
<BR>
This presupposes that only one side has arms, and that more destructive<BR>
weapons are not employed.  If the only arms are assault rifles, it follows<BR>
that assault rifles cause the most casualties.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 07:51:14 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/5/00 6:56 AM, Talon at talon@skyenet.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> My previous post wasn't aimed specifically at you Chris, but it was easier<BR>
> to clip some of your thread to focus my response, no disrespect intended.  I<BR>
> don't think they should or could "replace" the organic soldier but augment<BR>
> them.  They will be useful tools to add to the squad.  We are just arguing<BR>
> over how smart is the robot.  We can agree to disagree on how "intelligent"<BR>
> they will be at higher tech levels.  I am not the one degrading the ability<BR>
> of the Robots, that is canon limiting the AI, if anything I think they<BR>
> should be less limited.  There have been lots of movies about the renegade<BR>
> newly sentient cyborg or robot and we can all agree I think that the<BR>
> potential for a free thinking warbot can have some serious ramifications.<BR>
> My whole point was that the OTU disregarded Moore's Law and the tech<BR>
> advances of computing and AI.  I think that computers and robots in the<BR>
> future will have much greater abilities and will be very simple to use.  We<BR>
> are still taking baby steps with regard to AI.  I am not sure if you want to<BR>
> incorporate a positronic brain into your TU, but the idea is that it will be<BR>
> a very close approximation of the sentient mind, at least the human mind.<BR>
> You might not be able to distinguish between true intelligence and just<BR>
> really good programming at high tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Why men versus milbots?  Given a society where human life is viewed as<BR>
expendable, flesh and blood soldiers are very cost effective.  To quote NASA<BR>
"man is the cheapest 150 lbs computer that can be produced by unskilled<BR>
labor".<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:55:10 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Steve Hudson wrote:<BR>
>"The Mark VIII Mine-clearing-bot, "Stomper", has the dual advantages of <BR>
>low-cost and ease of maintenance. The role of the big, thick feet are <BR>
>obvious..." <BR>
<BR>
Why do Mark VIII MCB's have big, flat feet?<BR>
<BR>
To stamp out minefields.<BR>
<BR>
Why do Mark IX's have big, flat feet?<BR>
<BR>
To stamp out flaming Mark VIII's...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
(Original:<BR>
<BR>
Why do ducks have big, flat feet?<BR>
<BR>
To stamp out forest fires.<BR>
<BR>
Why do elephants have big, flat feet?<BR>
<BR>
To stamp out flaming ducks.)<BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 07:55:33<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
At 10:10 AM 6/5/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Question: Can meson communicators be jammed? Can they be traced with<BR>
>direction finding equipment? If not I see them as the premier warbot<BR>
>controlling conduits.<BR>
<BR>
Meson communicators are big, expensive power-hogs.  Your battlebots are now<BR>
becoming *very* attractive targets. Given an equal budget I can afford to<BR>
field even more troops, each armed with a light anti-armor weapon.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:04:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:53:54 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Baron David Coulsworth will take the opportunity to address the <BR>
>> insults aimed at the fine arms merchant combine of "Maximus/X-<BR>
>> Tek"<BR>
>><BR>
>> "Famile Spofulam has obviously let its reality addled brains <BR>
>> concoct this publicity statement, anything under 10 megajoules is <BR>
>> still a small arm in our catalog"<BR>
<BR>
>Hey, they did say "most". If I was you, I'd just offer a list of the<BR>
>weapons it *isn't* immune to, and hold a sale. :-)<BR>
<BR>
>- -- <BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
The Legal Department of X-TEK has investigated the situation and believes<BR>
the problem lies in the different standard nomenclatures of each<BR>
repsective company.<BR>
<BR>
In an attempt to alieviate the confusion, X-TEK Legal has released the<BR>
following facts:<BR>
<BR>
A 'small arm' as perceived by X-TEK also includes the many small weapon<BR>
systems as used by ship based systems.  By this definition, even the<BR>
infamous QuadPulse(TM) PD Laser and our Rapid Fire Fusion systems are<BR>
small arms.  This may be what the Baron was refering to.<BR>
<BR>
Of course it is well known that most FS small arms are in fact judged by<BR>
how weildy it is by Ditzhammer Spofulam, Chief weapons designer of FS.  If<BR>
she can wield it effectively, then it is a small arm.<BR>
<BR>
A 'small arm' as perceived by the common populace is in fact a sidearm, a<BR>
pistol, or other small personal weapon.  This could be the terminology<BR>
that FS Marketing my have shot for.  If so then no slander is warented and<BR>
FS is within their rights of advertising.  Indeed the hull and armour of<BR>
the Forklift may well deflect most X-TEK personal weapons fire including<BR>
the S/99 "Special" and M/1100 "Millenium" Gauss pistols.  It is not yet<BR>
been determined if the "Cricket" class of fusion pistol, hyperdense sabot<BR>
pistol, or fusion SMG can penetrate the FS Forklift but tests are underway<BR>
and are likely to reveil positive results.<BR>
<BR>
Relations between Famille Spofulam and X-TEK/MIDI remain to be stable.<BR>
The corporate treaty of Deneb does say that in the event of a FS/TEK trade<BR>
war, as there was durring the civil war, the Imperium will get directly<BR>
involved as such a tradewar could inevitably destroy the Imperium if left<BR>
unchecked. The involvement would include infiltrating both companies with<BR>
assault penguins and crack Zen commandoes both supplied by Gridlore<BR>
Technologies in an attempt to make both companies contemplate fair<BR>
business practices.  It is this threat of MADASS (Mutualy Assured<BR>
Destruction of Assets and Stablization of Sanity) that has kept the<BR>
friendly competition between X-TEK and FS for so long.<BR>
<BR>
This concludes this message from X-TEK Legal division.<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2552<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:07:03 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:06:35 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA89644;<BR>
	Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:04:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:04:16 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA89585<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:04:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:04:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006051504.LAA89585@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2552<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2553</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/5/00 11:18:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 5 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2553<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Dumb Milibots<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production <BR>
Re: Black Globes as Power Generators<BR>
DGP WBH<BR>
Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
re: meson communicators<BR>
re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
Lost Secrets<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
RE:  Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 08:11:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Dumb Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Why do milbots need to be sophisticated?  And if the Imperium bans warbots,<BR>
why use them.  Instead, we have the 'semi-autonomous fire support vehicle'.<BR>
Build a small, armed robot with limited self direction and plenty of<BR>
firepower.  Assign one to each squad as a high-tech 'squad automatic weapon'<BR>
with a specialist to operate it (MOS 11 Zulu, squad support weapon<BR>
operator). With programming for specific evens, it can operate autonomously.<BR>
If it needs direction, it can query its operator.<BR>
<BR>
For example, it can be programmed to automatically respond to sniper fire or<BR>
ambush (e.g. return fire immediately and request instructions).<BR>
<BR>
It might even function as the squad's APC.<BR>
<BR>
And it is not a milbot.  Just a very sophisticated SP gun.<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought.  I think I'll sit down with Robots and see how the cost<BR>
breaks out.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 08:25:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/4/00 7:55 PM, talon@skyenet.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Corollary to capturing a robot, you can capture a human soldier and<BR>
> interrogate him all you want and you may discover the way he will react in<BR>
> given circumstances but is that going to change the reality of the<BR>
> battlefield?<BR>
<BR>
Is he a clone? Even then, he is likely to have different experiences from<BR>
his companions, even if you attempted to keep all their training identicle.<BR>
<BR>
Query: Is there any subtle distinction between sentient and sapient?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 08:46:16 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
...<BR>
>>There was an interesting article on WW2 aircraft economics a couple<BR>
>>years ago in JMH; ISTR the point being made that while the US policy<BR>
>>maximized quantity production, it would have been a much less useful<BR>
>>approach if the specialty units (and this applies to tanks, too) had<BR>
>>not been being designed and produced elsewhere. There's a good case<BR>
>>to be made that the UK's production of lots of different designs (and<BR>
>>many of them also high-end, rather than "just" specialized) was really<BR>
>>an expression of the strengths of the industry created by the policies<BR>
>>of defense purchasing in the `30's - smallish orders from multiple<BR>
>>vendors with lots of design expertise.<BR>
><BR>
>But didn't the wide variety and lack of standardization wind up being part<BR>
>of the downfall of the Wehrmacht at the same time? And didn't the extreme<BR>
<BR>
  Largely a different situation - besides a seeming predeliction for all<BR>
sorts of neat designs being produced for their own sakes, the Germans<BR>
most certainly did need to keep factories churning out the current item<BR>
at maximum rates just to meet current needs, and thus the profusion of<BR>
different designs from different companies, complexes, or foreign pre-war<BR>
inventories. Provision of spares wasn't always possible.<BR>
<BR>
  But the availability of specialty air-craft hulls is a huge matter, and<BR>
it's not always the obvious ones that count. Sure, if your fighters are<BR>
far and away superior then you have to work to lose, but good enough and<BR>
not too expensive are workable slogans. But if your flying boats and<BR>
maritime patrollers don't have reach, or reliability, or survivability,<BR>
then you've got problems. And if your recon craft can't be intercepted<BR>
then deception in war-time becomes much easier - up to a/c attrition<BR>
rates (vs stock-piles) you can play mind-games by upping daylight photo-<BR>
recon to suspicion-creating levels _just because you want to_ :><BR>
<BR>
>specialization hurt a lot of British units at the beginning of the war.<BR>
>("No, these are infantry tanks. They shoot at infantry and don't need AP<BR>
>rounds. And these are cruiser tanks, they shoot at tanks and don't need HE<BR>
>rounds.") This approach also caused trouble for the U.S. by the end of the<BR>
>war with the insistence of the panners that TD's fight tanks and tanks shoot<BR>
>at infantry and never crossover. Nice theory, lousy reality.<BR>
<BR>
  Those are all examples of doctrine (/doctrinal failings), although<BR>
arguably some of them were caused by limitations on available hard-<BR>
ware. If, OTOH, the British army had accepted delivery of inappropriate<BR>
vehicles without input on what was to be delivered, then the result<BR>
would have been due to manufacturers over-specialization.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: I'll bet that the Rim War involved a _lot_ of unpleasant<BR>
learning experiences for the 3I - having to slog through their own<BR>
hinterlands to the "enemy" border likely wasn't much allowed for.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:13:04 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>Largely a different situation - besides a seeming predeliction for all<BR>
sorts of neat designs being produced for their own sakes, the Germans<BR>
most certainly did need to keep factories churning out the current item<BR>
at maximum rates just to meet current needs, and thus the profusion of<BR>
different designs from different companies, complexes, or foreign pre-war<BR>
inventories. Provision of spares wasn't always possible.<<BR>
<BR>
Actually German factory production was below maximum for until Barbarossa<BR>
hit its second year. They took a lackadaisical approach to production<BR>
because they thought they would win in months. Further I thought if they<BR>
wanted production to stay high they wouldn't have kept coming up with new<BR>
vehicles and just stayed with the old ones.<BR>
<BR>
>But the availability of specialty air-craft hulls is a huge matter, and<BR>
it's not always the obvious ones that count. Sure, if your fighters are<BR>
far and away superior then you have to work to lose, but good enough and<BR>
not too expensive are workable slogans. But if your flying boats and<BR>
maritime patrollers don't have reach, or reliability, or survivability,<BR>
then you've got problems. And if your recon craft can't be intercepted<BR>
then deception in war-time becomes much easier - up to a/c attrition<BR>
rates (vs stock-piles) you can play mind-games by upping daylight photo-<BR>
recon to suspicion-creating levels _just because you want to_ :><<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, some designs do need upgrading. German (and later American and<BR>
British) tanks needing bigger guns is the obvious example. But you don't<BR>
always need a totally different vehicle or 5 different varieties of the same<BR>
vehicle class to do so. Right now the U.S. is building one MBT (with a few<BR>
minor upgrade variants still around) and doesn't need to think of another<BR>
kind of tank to deploy with the M-1 series. But note, the M60A2 was a flop<BR>
and they stopped making them. Likewise the Sgt. York was finally and plainly<BR>
dumped before mass procurement.<BR>
<BR>
>Those are all examples of doctrine (/doctrinal failings), although<BR>
arguably some of them were caused by limitations on available hard-<BR>
ware. If, OTOH, the British army had accepted delivery of inappropriate<BR>
vehicles without input on what was to be delivered, then the result<BR>
would have been due to manufacturers over-specialization.<<BR>
<BR>
Which is one of the core arguments I keep making against strategic bombers<BR>
and bombing. A lousy doctrine and poor early designs should have resulted in<BR>
no late war 4-engines bombers. Instead of accepting it wasn't working, they<BR>
just kept on going.<BR>
Oh, and the strategic bombing campaign cost more American lives than just<BR>
those of the bomb crews. Iwo Jima was "important" so it could be turned into<BR>
a forward airbase.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: I'll bet that the Rim War involved a _lot_ of unpleasant<BR>
learning experiences for the 3I - having to slog through their own<BR>
hinterlands to the "enemy" border likely wasn't much allowed for.<<BR>
<BR>
I agree. The history states that the liberation of the Vegan district and<BR>
the securing of an industrial base close to the fighting was key incident in<BR>
the war.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:13:26 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
Ken Kazinski wrote,<BR>
>You must realize that by the end of the war daylight bombing was a<BR>
success.  Crew lost was down.  As the Allied forces kept destroying<BR>
vital war replacements there were fewer and fewer axis aircraft flying.<BR>
The Brits did not do daylight bombing and there losses were lower, but<BR>
so was their hit / destroyed ratios.<<BR>
<BR>
Right, but the end of the war. Meanwhile several thousand men got to die on<BR>
near suicide missions. Lets go over the top again too while we are at it.<BR>
<BR>
>I think you are mixing up stategic bombing with daylight bombing.<<BR>
<BR>
Not in the least. Again as you say crew lost was down, not gone. The<BR>
missions were still overly dangerous for he returns. Not just in men<BR>
invested but material as well.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, look at desert strom - strategic bombing was used there, but the<BR>
weapons were "smarter" and hit their targets more often.  I was watching<BR>
CNN when they showed a slide with the amount of bomb tonnage dropped to<BR>
destroy a target in WW2, vs Korea, vs Desert Storm.<<BR>
<BR>
With the corollaries being;<BR>
1. Kuwait wasn't liberated until ground troops went in.<BR>
2. Hussein is still in power as Baghdad was never occupied.<BR>
So much for the success of strategic bombing.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:14:13 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production <BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>Pack-rat-ism? Seriously, even though the AHL's possibly don't have<BR>
even war-time missions anymore, and their maintenance is unjustifiably<BR>
high w/o re-building, it's still cheap enough to keep them around just<BR>
in case. This wouldn't make sense if big changes in performance weren't<BR>
so slow to evolve as in the OTU (FWIW, the background wouldn't really<BR>
be playable and/or comprehensible over anything like the time-frame<BR>
presented if that weren't the case), but that is the situation we have.<<BR>
<BR>
Whoops. Missed making my point there.<BR>
I was not asking why mothballing was used, I agree with being a pack-rat.<BR>
(Just look at my apt. some time. :-P) I was pointing out that the ships just<BR>
can't cut it on the front lines. And while they may indeed be yanked out<BR>
every now and then just to have something to put in the way, if they survive<BR>
it is back to storage for the clunkers.<BR>
Likewise, keeping a bunch of junky or obsolete) aircraft around is fine<BR>
(there are still F-4s flying) but actually using them except in emergencies<BR>
is ridiculous and using them on ridiculous missions is worse.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:38:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Black Globes as Power Generators<BR>
<BR>
Joe Lachance writes:<BR>
>     Okay, this might be a bit off the beaten path, but here is an<BR>
> application of black globes to give power production that<BR>
> approachesantimatter power plants (but at least 2 tech levels earlier).<BR>
> <BR>
>     The simplest application of a black globe power generator would be to<BR>
> put it relatively close to a star.  Why close to a star? To present a<BR>
> larger cross section to pick up stellar radiation.  The "ship" containing<BR>
> the black globe generator would need to possess large scale capacitors and a<BR>
> laser pointed at a receiver located near the mainworld of a system.  By<BR>
> setting the black globe force field on flicker the laser can fire (using<BR>
> energy in the capacitors) transferring energy/power to a harnessing space<BR>
> station. Think of this as high efficiency solar power.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, think of it as pretty close to standard efficiency solar power.  TL15 solar power is probably 80-90% conversion anyway.<BR>
> <BR>
>     A second, and more drastic option is as follows:  bombard a black globe<BR>
> force field with heated dust or plasma.  The key here is that matter is<BR>
> hitting the globe.  Existing traveller literature doesn't seem to indicate<BR>
> that the matter is turned into energy when it hits a black globe.  Rather,<BR>
> "If an erected force field comes into contact with large quantities of<BR>
> matter (a vehicle of 50 dtons or greater, etc.), the generator is<BR>
> immediately overloaded and destroyed, and its HPG sink immediately suffers<BR>
> catastrophic detonation... As the field attempts to drain all the kinetic<BR>
> energy of the large mass, cooling it to absolute zero..."<BR>
<BR>
That pretty clearly indicates that the matter doesn't get turned to energy, since it refers to 'kinetic energy'.  Rest mass isn't kinetic energy.<BR>
<BR>
The big nasty thing about black globe generators is that they violate the second law of thermodynamics, so you can use them as perfect heat sinks.  The consequences on detection of vehicles are fairly severe.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:38:13 +0100 <BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: DGP WBH<BR>
<BR>
I've just got back from lunch, during which I paid a visit to my FLGS<BR>
[Travelling Man, Leeds] where I just picked up a slightly water-damaged<BR>
copy of WBH for UKP 3.99 (~$6!!!). Whoo-Hoo!!!<BR>
<BR>
The cover shows most damage, being faded and discoloured in the top inch<BR>
or so, but internally the book is in very useable condition, all the<BR>
text is present and readable, the water damage being limited to a faint<BR>
yellowing of the top inch or less of each page, with a slightly more<BR>
visible line indicating the fullest extent of the saturation.<BR>
<BR>
I am a very happy gunbunny^H^H^H bunny!<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:31:28 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
I think it's high time we re-enumerate the various corporate<BR>
entities represented here by members of the TML.  X-Tek,<BR>
Famile Spofalum, Auritech, Gridlore... there are many more<BR>
out there, too.<BR>
<BR>
And, if I may say so, there are some TMLers who don't have<BR>
a corp backing them that SHOULD have one... and so a new<BR>
twist: these guys should either invent ones, or be 'hired' <BR>
by the existing ones.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, this is a good way to test and refine the Universal <BR>
Corporate Profile (UCP), which is located at<BR>
<BR>
   http://members.home.net/eaglestone/UCP.html<BR>
<BR>
So line up, ladies and gentlemen.  Who wants to go first?<BR>
<BR>
Here's an example.  I'll use my long-dormant corporation:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gilgaameshu Yards (1011 Arden) 4-D44-5?? SS Mine Cons Manu 538 Ar<BR>
<BR>
Name:         Gilgaameshu Yards, LIC<BR>
HQ:           1011 Arden/Spinward Marches<BR>
Employees:    4 (30,000)<BR>
Range:        D (multi-subsector or sector)<BR>
Influence:    4 (low)<BR>
Public Image: 4 (good)<BR>
R&D:          5 (%)<BR>
Turnover(Cr): Unknown<BR>
Profit(Cr):   Unknown<BR>
Nature:       SS (State-Sponsored)<BR>
Areas:        Mine (Mining), <BR>
              Cons (Construction), <BR>
              Manu (Manufacturing)<BR>
Tradition:    5 (traditional)<BR>
Corp Politics:3 (lots)<BR>
Paranoia:     8 (pretty paranoid)<BR>
Nationality:  Ar (Arden)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:45:46 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: re: meson communicators<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Question: Can meson communicators be jammed? Can they be traced with<BR>
>direction finding equipment? If not I see them as the premier warbot<BR>
>controlling conduits.<BR>
<BR>
  No, no, and no :>  i.e., re: cost/mass/etc: <koff-gasp-hack-wheeze><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:43:13 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
>Oh, and the strategic bombing campaign cost more American lives than <BR>
>just those of the bomb crews. Iwo Jima was "important" so it could be <BR>
>turned into a forward airbase. <BR>
<BR>
Whew.<BR>
<BR>
We've been talking Europe.  Strategic bombing in the Pacific was<BR>
different, but I think you're painting it with the same brush.<BR>
<BR>
We've been at an impasse of duelling opinions for some time now,<BR>
with no progress either way.  I do not think you are giving the<BR>
military commanders of the day enough credit for the situation they<BR>
were in, the equipment they had available, and the fact that they were <BR>
taking part in a long-term experiment with a new tactic.  I believe<BR>
that your position is that the heavy losses, combined with the<BR>
knowledge that German production increased during the assault, should <BR>
have dissuaded the Allied air commanders from continuing the experiment.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, wait...that's right...the Allies ***DIDN'T KNOW*** that German<BR>
production was increasing...not until after the war, that is.<BR>
<BR>
OK, then, the WW2 experience should have taught us that strategic<BR>
bombing doesn't work, so no more strategic bombers should be built...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, wait...that's right...the end of WW2 gave us bombs that could<BR>
eradicate an entire industrial center with one shot.  Now the <BR>
equation changes again.<BR>
<BR>
20/20 hindsight is nice.  It lets you watch other people walk into walls<BR>
and laugh, right before you back into a pit.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:52:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I think that this whole milbot thing is off in the wrong direction. The idea<BR>
> shouldn't be to use milbots as one for one replacements for sophont<BR>
> soldiers. The idea should be to make individual milbots more effective than<BR>
> individual soldiers. Don't play the intuitive and creativity game because<BR>
> only a sophont robot can win that. Instead if you're fielding milbots make<BR>
> the enemy play to your strengths. Which are...?<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Mobility-if you're talking grav technology higher speed. With sonar or<BR>
> radar or ladar a robot should be able to move NOE much faster than an<BR>
> unaugmented human. And the robot should be able to carry a higher load. And<BR>
> there is no need to sleep, carry food, etc. Endurance is a factor of the<BR>
> kind of power source. Fusion last forever as far as this kind of use goes.<BR>
> Energy cells mean that your robot has a definite mission duration limit,<BR>
> which may be extended with solar augmentation or other recharge options.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's likely that you *don't* want to use grav technology for<BR>
anything smaller than a grav tank, simply because CG units have a<BR>
sensor signature that's as bad as jet engines or rockets on an IR<BR>
sensor. Probably *worse*.<BR>
<BR>
In other words, a big, fat "shoot me" sign. This tends to annoy the<BR>
troops that have to work with them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> 2. Firepower - the higher load carrying capacity of the robot should be used<BR>
> to field heavier weapons. The no artillery support should be superfluous. A<BR>
> milrobot should be its own artillery support. So you don't let a squad of<BR>
> sophonts sucker you into trading shots. You locate them and hit them with<BR>
> heavy weapons from outside their weapon range.<BR>
<BR>
Unless the robot is a small tank, the only weapon it's apt to carry<BR>
that'll outrange the enemy is a mortar. And it'll have limited rounds<BR>
for that.<BR>
<BR>
> 4. Armor - It goes without saying that these things should be heavily<BR>
> armored. Small arms should be no threat. If the enemy troops have anti-armor<BR>
> weapons then you'll lose some robots, but they'd only be vulnerable if the<BR>
> living soldiers saw them first. If the robots see the fire team first they<BR>
> just make sure everything in the target area dies.<BR>
><BR>
> Don't think The Phantom Menace here, think Terminator.<BR>
<BR>
Terminator ain't gonna happen. You *can't* make a human sized robot<BR>
that tough from any materials likely to be developed. Certainly not<BR>
with what's avialable in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:07:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Billions of Vilani marching in lockstep, all buying from the same vendors,<BR>
> ewww!  Imagine if all people were forced to wear only clothing from Sears...<BR>
<BR>
Then either Sears would have to greatly expand their size range, or I<BR>
and a number of folks I know would have to run around naked....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:19:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Clothes in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Billions of Vilani marching in lockstep, all buying from the same vendors,<BR>
> > ewww!  Imagine if all people were forced to wear only clothing from Sears...<BR>
> <BR>
> Then either Sears would have to greatly expand their size range, or I<BR>
> and a number of folks I know would have to run around naked....<BR>
> <BR>
how odd.  The Sears in Oakland has one of the better selections of non<BR>
matronly clothing for larger *women* that I've been able to find.<BR>
<BR>
(If you are a club chyk and you weigh 200+, shopping is a matter of Great<BR>
Importance.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri =)<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 13:28:49 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
Some real world lapses that suggest possible adventure seeds, bits snipped<BR>
from<BR>
<BR>
	http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/2000/06/04/mifiles<BR>
<BR>
"The British government said Saturday that a thief stole a laptop computer<BR>
from the cabinet minister in charge of the country's nuclear policy."<BR>
<BR>
"In early March, a laptop computer containing details about the way spies<BR>
are trained was<BR>
lost by an MI-6 agent.  Later that month, a laptop computer with classified<BR>
information about Northern Ireland was taken from a security officer, who<BR>
set it down at a train station to buy a ticket."<BR>
<BR>
"In May, a British naval officer lost his computer and luggage while<BR>
getting on a train."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
GM: "You notice a computer chit laying on the floor in the starport<BR>
corridor..."<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:28:13<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
At 11:31 AM 6/5/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I think it's high time we re-enumerate the various corporate<BR>
>entities represented here by members of the TML.  X-Tek,<BR>
>Famile Spofalum, Auritech, Gridlore... there are many more<BR>
>out there, too.<BR>
<BR>
>   http://members.home.net/eaglestone/UCP.html<BR>
><BR>
>So line up, ladies and gentlemen.  Who wants to go first?<BR>
<BR>
Name:         Gridlore Technologies, LIC<BR>
HQ:           Lunion/Lunion 2134 Spinward Marches<BR>
Employees:    5 (200,000)<BR>
Range:        D (multi-subsector or sector)<BR>
Influence:    C (local stellar area)<BR>
Public Image: 8 (neutral)<BR>
R&D:          15 (%)<BR>
Turnover(Cr): Unknown<BR>
Profit(Cr):   Unknown<BR>
Nature:       Fam (Family Owned)<BR>
Areas:        Whol 25% (Wholesale trade)<BR>
              Ret  15% (Retail trade)<BR>
              Cons 45% (Construction) <BR>
              Manu 10% (Manufacturing)<BR>
	      Non  05% (Non-classifiable)<BR>
Tradition:    A (open)<BR>
Corp Politics:3 (lots)<BR>
Paranoia:     5 (not very)<BR>
Nationality:  Im (Third Imperium)<BR>
<BR>
Stock ownership: Gridlore family: 53%, Horlatez et Cie: 10%,<BR>
Interstellarms: 7%, Noble families: 15%, Imperial household: 5%, Other<BR>
investors: 10%.<BR>
<BR>
The venerable firm, dating back to the Imperium's founding, continues<BR>
operations today from their orbital headquarters.  The company remains<BR>
firmly in the Gridlore family's hands, with elaborate rules covering<BR>
inheritances.<BR>
<BR>
Currently, Gridlore Technologies (Lunion Exchange Symbol: GridTech)<BR>
operates several sub-units, focusing on the company's traditional core<BR>
concerns: starships and trade.  Gridlore owns the Overce Shipyards in<BR>
Lunion orbit, and has a reputation for excellence in design of custom<BR>
vessels. Gridlore's weapons division, ACQ Defense systems, continues to be<BR>
an industry leader in personal arms.<BR>
<BR>
The Board of Directors is currently chaired by Kellier Ovari-Gridlore, 62.<BR>
Under Ovari-Gridlore, the firm has experienced a rebirth of purpose.  A<BR>
newly-formed division, OutRim Horizons, LIC, will begin explorations of the<BR>
OutRim Void within two standard years with the stated purpose of expanded<BR>
trade with the scattered Aslan and Human settlements in the reason.<BR>
<BR>
Herr Ovari-Gridlore stated that "there are those who claim that we have no<BR>
more frontiers. Ridiculous. Our information regarding an entire sector to<BR>
Rimward is pathetically lacking.  Since the IISS seems to have no desire to<BR>
remedy this sad state of affairs, it falls to us, as it did when our<BR>
founder, Baron Arameth Gridlore, set out from Core to explore the Spinward<BR>
Marches."<BR>
<BR>
- - "Corporate Profiles," Lunion Economic Review, 146-1117<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
 "Non possum existimare plus quemquem facini"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:48:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
>>Question: Can meson communicators be jammed? Can they be traced with<BR>
>>direction finding equipment? If not I see them as the premier warbot<BR>
>>controlling conduits.<BR>
><BR>
>Meson communicators are big, expensive power-hogs.  Your battlebots are now<BR>
>becoming *very* attractive targets. Given an equal budget I can afford to<BR>
>field even more troops, each armed with a light anti-armor weapon.<BR>
- - --<BR>
<BR>
This of course discounts the factor that the society might consider<BR>
intelligent life more valuable than the mere cost of how many credits it<BR>
takes to field and train a soldier. That, of course, is a question of the<BR>
values of the society. The U.S. has developed smart munitions and prefers to<BR>
use aircraft instead of ground troops because it's politically easier to<BR>
***not*** have to explain casualties. Why is that? I'd say it's because most<BR>
Americans don't consider it worth an ***American*** life to save African or<BR>
Central European lives. I'm not defending that position or even condemning<BR>
it. I'm just saying that it says something about a societies values if a<BR>
society decides to use living troops instead of equally effective robots<BR>
just on the basis of cost.<BR>
<BR>
If you're just going on the basis of cost use a neutron bomb or biological<BR>
weapons. Dollar for dollar they're a lot cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:37:58 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 23:02 -0400 4/6/00,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
>To assume that all situations can be handled by logic is to assume that all<BR>
>possible situations in which a robot may find itself will be assigned a<BR>
>"weight" in advance. This could be due to prior programming, which is to say<BR>
>that all possible situations are programmed in, but since a robot may find<BR>
>itself in an infinite number of situations this is simply an impossibility.<BR>
>On the other hand, a reasonable assumption would be that all of the<BR>
>components of a potential situation may be assigned a "weight" on the same<BR>
>"scale". The first flaw is that the components of a potential situation are<BR>
>infinite. The second flaw is that it would be extremely difficult to<BR>
>generate a scale in which all components in a potential situation can be<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't this one of the plot devices used in the _Buck Rogers in the <BR>
25th Century_ TV series? ISTR that the human (?) fighters used to get <BR>
blown up a lot because they evaded with an auto program.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:41:26 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
At 23:02 -0400 4/6/00, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>Another reason why we decided on having one of the European STL<BR>
>expeditions go to Alpha Centauri.  It explained not only the odd choice<BR>
>of target for the first jump expedition, but also the fact that Alpha Centauri<BR>
>was a "world" in the Imperium game as early as ISW-1.<BR>
<BR>
Pre-ISW1 ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I'm looking forward to 'Rim Of Fire', and no, I'm not thinking about <BR>
Curry or Chilli ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 12:56:59 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I was pointing out that the ships just<BR>
> can't cut it on the front lines. And while they may indeed be yanked out<BR>
> every now and then just to have something to put in the way, if they survive<BR>
> it is back to storage for the clunkers.<BR>
> Likewise, keeping a bunch of junky or obsolete) aircraft around is fine<BR>
> (there are still F-4s flying) but actually using them except in emergencies<BR>
> is ridiculous and using them on ridiculous missions is worse.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
A fellow Traveller pointed out to me that the AHL ships<BR>
show signs of being designed using High Guard version 1,<BR>
under which it must have kicked butt.  The differences <BR>
between V1 and V2 of High Guard apparently were enough <BR>
to do in the AHL.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:16:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE:  Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
<BR>
I think you're over-simplifying.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2553<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 14:18:24 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 14:17:58 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA97637;<BR>
	Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:16:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:16:45 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id OAA97607<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:16:45 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:16:45 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006051816.OAA97607@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2553<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2554</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/5/00 2:03:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 5 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2554<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
RE: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
Fighters and Missiles<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
Re: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
RE:  Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Hyperdense cutlass?<BR>
RE: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
re: Lost Secrets<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:26:14 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>The "typical" inhabitants are a relatively new creation. <BR>
>When it comes to encounter and abduction stories before <BR>
>about the very late 70s and early 80s the inhabitants of <BR>
>flying  saucers were anything but "typical". There were <BR>
>tall aliens, short aliens, freakish aliens, blonde-haired,<BR>
<BR>
>blue-eyed pretty boy aliens. The list goes on and on.]]<BR>
<BR>
It reminds me of something Kojak said, to the effect of,<BR>
"yeah, great, get the eyewitness statements.  You know how<BR>
eyewitness statements go -- you end up looking for a fat,<BR>
skinny red-headed bald guy, with one eye blue, one eye<BR>
brown, and the third eye gray."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:49:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>   ObTrav: hey, do you think that a career-based<BR>
char-gen system might<BR>
>> be of use in SF-RPG's?                             <BR>
              :)<BR>
><BR>
>Don't make my type up my Medieval Traveller chargen.<BR>
><BR>
>;-)<BR>
><BR>
>boo<BR>
<BR>
As crazy as it sounds, I'd actually like to see this.<BR>
It would be really useful for rolling up characters on<BR>
low-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
(Call me heretic if you like, but I really think that<BR>
there's room for a Traveller sourcebook about running<BR>
adventures on 1 planet only. The PCs could be the<BR>
heads of the local government. They'd have to deal<BR>
with running the colony, keeping the peace,<BR>
suppressing revolt, and dealing with those annoying<BR>
spacers and their violent mercenary buddies...)<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:51:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
>From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>(Another possible reason: deep-space telescopes may have <BR>
>revealed the "jump flashes" of starships entering and <BR>
>leaving the Barnard's Star system. Once Terrans had the <BR>
>jump drive it would have been natural to look for such <BR>
>things in nearby star systems.  Maybe the US knew ahead of<BR>
<BR>
>time that it would find something astonishing at <BR>
>Barnard's Star.)<BR>
<BR>
I still subscribe to the theory that the Greys told the US<BR>
shadow government to go to Barnard's Star.  But then I do<BR>
watch too much X-Files.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:58:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Plus, if my 98G colleagues are anywhere nearby, the gruntbots' comm<BR>
>>links will be:<BR>
>>a) well and truly jammed (or, if possible, spoofed), or<BR>
>>b) found via direction-finding and either evaded or targeted for<BR>
>>indirect fire assets.  (I know the original scenario claimed that<BR>
>>indirect fire assets were unavailable; however, any modern army that<BR>
>>would commit ground forces without any fire support at all is criminally<BR>
>>negligent.)<BR>
><BR>
> Question: Can meson communicators be jammed? Can they be traced with<BR>
> direction finding equipment? If not I see them as the premier warbot<BR>
> controlling conduits.<BR>
<BR>
Meson comms may be way too *large* for this application except at<BR>
extreme TLs. <BR>
<BR>
And in any case, they have a *major* disadvantage that almost certainly<BR>
prevents their use on the battlefield...<BR>
<BR>
To send a message, you have to know the distance and direction of the<BR>
receiver to a high degree of accuracy. So unless the robots use a relay<BR>
at a fixed location *and* have very good inertial tracking systems,<BR>
they can't know where the controller or the rest of their "group" are. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:03:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> My whole point was that the OTU disregarded Moore's Law and the tech<BR>
> advances of computing and AI.<BR>
<BR>
Moore's law is going to run into severe trouble in less than 10 years. <BR>
Until and unless "molecular computing" becomes viable, or "quantum<BR>
chps" do, there's going to be a large wall as we hit the *physical*<BR>
limits for stuff like size and speed.<BR>
<BR>
There's a hard limit below which a transistor is too small to work.<BR>
Likewise, clock speeds will hit the wall at the point (not all that far<BR>
off!) where lightspeed limits on signal propogation prevent getting<BR>
responses from RAM without added wait cycles.<BR>
<BR>
> I think that computers and robots in the<BR>
> future will have much greater abilities and will be very simple to use.  We<BR>
> are still taking baby steps with regard to AI. <BR>
<BR>
AI is *worse* than fusion as far as "we'll have the problems solved in<BR>
10 years". *Both* have been saying that since the mid 50s. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:08:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/5/00 6:57 AM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Also, not to argue for or agenst Landmines -<BR>
>> <BR>
>> There is a very intresting article in this months SciAm. It points out that<BR>
>> assult rifles (small arms) cause many many more civilian casulitiys then<BR>
>> land mines - during and after the conflicts today - one of the articles is<BR>
>> at http://www.sciam.com/2000/0600issue/0600boutwell.html . There are <BR>
> several<BR>
>> others on this topic in the off-line version of the magazine.<BR>
><BR>
> This presupposes that only one side has arms, and that more destructive<BR>
> weapons are not employed.  If the only arms are assault rifles, it follows<BR>
> that assault rifles cause the most casualties.<BR>
<BR>
Read the article(s) *before* responding.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is "small arms", with assualt rifles merely being the most<BR>
common type. <BR>
<BR>
And it does *not* depend on only one side having weapons. It's mostly a<BR>
case of the people with the weapons not giving a damn whether the folks<BR>
they shoot are enemy forces or enemy civilians. <BR>
<BR>
These folks don't know about the Geneva Conventions, and many wouldn't<BR>
care about them if they did.<BR>
<BR>
Also, far too many of them are kids. I don't meen teenagers, I mean<BR>
*children* down to age *5* in some cases.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:15:47 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff wrote:<BR>
> boo wote:<BR>
> > Don't make my type up my Medieval Traveller chargen.<BR>
> <BR>
> As crazy as it sounds, I'd actually like to see this.<BR>
> It would be really useful for rolling up characters on<BR>
> low-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Ditto.  Please post.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:28:01 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
agreed<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 2:15 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Arthur Boff wrote:<BR>
> > boo wote:<BR>
> > > Don't make my type up my Medieval Traveller chargen.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > As crazy as it sounds, I'd actually like to see this.<BR>
> > It would be really useful for rolling up characters on<BR>
> > low-tech worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ditto.  Please post.<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:17:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Fighters and Missiles<BR>
<BR>
Some time ago someone had commented that with the Brilliant Lances rules capital ship <BR>
spinal mount weapons were not nearly as effective as waves of missiles, so I decided to <BR>
design some fighters and missiles.  The rules were FFSv2.  The Fighter is basically a missile <BR>
launch platform.  While I didn't design it the Fighter would have a laser-armed Fighter Escort <BR>
for defense against small craft.  Comments appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Specifications follow:<BR>
<BR>
Fighter:<BR>
  - 10 Td Sphere<BR>
  - manuever, 7 g  (6 g grav comp + 1 g-couch)<BR>
  - 9 g HEPlaR drive for emergency manuevering (total 16 G) with 30 minutes endurance<BR>
  - 12 hour endurance<BR>
  - 10 Missile Launch Canisters<BR>
  - 10 MCr<BR>
<BR>
Missile<BR>
  - HEPlaR, 48 g<BR>
  - 30 minutes endurance<BR>
  - 500 kT payload, long range laser det<BR>
  - 12 MCr (for the payload alone) <BR>
<BR>
Comments:<BR>
(1)  Travelling at 7 G for 6 hours will give the Fighter a range of 1089 hexes (32.7 million km) <BR>
and an ending velocity of 756 km/s.<BR>
(2)  The missiles launched will retain this velocity plus be accelerated by its own engines.  It <BR>
will have a range of 50 hexes (1.4 million km).  45 hexes are from the initial velocity with 5 <BR>
coming from the missile's engines.<BR>
(3)  Range:  Fighter + Missile + Bomb = 1089 + 50 + 1 = 1140 hexes<BR>
(4)  Damage Value:  113 per bomb.  Using this DV we can compute the energy needed for <BR>
other comparable weapons: PAW - 250 MJ, Meson - 500 MJ, Laser - 1000 MJ (limited to <BR>
750).  Basically, "The Bomb" is powerful.<BR>
(5)  At a launching range of 1.4 million km, fighters will be out of range of most weapons.<BR>
(6)  Given the dispersed nature of fighters versus ships I think missile armed fighters would be <BR>
superior to missile armed ships.<BR>
<BR>
Questions:<BR>
(1)  How effective is missile defense ?  <BR>
          <BR>
Analysis:<BR>
If missile defense is effective then huge numbers of missiles would be needed to penetrate.  <BR>
Given the high cost of missiles it may be cost-prohibitive to take out a capital ship with <BR>
missiles.  One might send in laser-armed fighter escorts to neutralize the anti-missile laser <BR>
batteries, but my gut tells me this is not feasable.<BR>
<BR>
If missile defense is less than effective then naval battles will become carrier battles.  This <BR>
outcome will also be the case if it is possible to neutralize anti-missile laser batteries.<BR>
<BR>
Has this issue been addressed before ?<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
 <BR>
> Moore's law is going to run into severe trouble in less than 10 years. <BR>
> Until and unless "molecular computing" becomes viable, or "quantum<BR>
> chps" do, there's going to be a large wall as we hit the *physical*<BR>
> limits for stuff like size and speed.<BR>
<BR>
From the various numbers and research stuff I've heard, more like 15-20 years.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 12:46:49 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
Why did the A-Team theme ring up immediately in my head??? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Continuing the fine tradition of the Imperium's most innovative company,<BR>
> Famile Spofulam yesterday revealed their latest model. Defined as a<BR>
> "forklift" for legal and tariff reasons, it is capable of a top speed of 404<BR>
> km per hour, accelerates to 100 kmh in 10.4 seconds and does a quarter mile<BR>
> from a dead stop start in 17.3 seconds.<BR>
> <BR>
> And it's streamlined, wedge-shaped hull is proof against most small arms<BR>
> from X-tek.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:55:21 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
> I have this film on  DVD  (mail-ordered  from  the  US)  and  VHS<BR>
> (purchased in UK store).  The *UK* version has a  different  line<BR>
> for some reason:<BR>
> <BR>
> [After shooting Bad Ash]<BR>
> Ash: [to Bad Ash] I ain't *that* good!<BR>
> <BR>
> I have no idea why this should be different.<BR>
<BR>
I have seen both these versions. I have also seen two different endings<BR>
for the movie. One ending (the most common, it would seem) is in the<BR>
supermarket. The final line of the other ending is "Oh no! I slept too<BR>
long!" (Ash wakes up to find that civilzation has collapsed).<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:54:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE:  Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
>Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
From your web site:<BR>
<BR>
"Util        Transpiration"<BR>
<BR>
Isn't transpiration some function of botanical organisms?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:16:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The Legal Department of X-TEK has investigated the situation and believes<BR>
> the problem lies in the different standard nomenclatures of each<BR>
> repsective company.<BR>
><BR>
> In an attempt to alieviate the confusion, X-TEK Legal has released the<BR>
> following facts:<BR>
><BR>
> A 'small arm' as perceived by X-TEK also includes the many small weapon<BR>
> systems as used by ship based systems.  By this definition, even the<BR>
> infamous QuadPulse(TM) PD Laser and our Rapid Fire Fusion systems are<BR>
> small arms.  This may be what the Baron was refering to.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course it is well known that most FS small arms are in fact judged by<BR>
> how weildy it is by Ditzhammer Spofulam, Chief weapons designer of FS.  If<BR>
> she can wield it effectively, then it is a small arm.<BR>
><BR>
> A 'small arm' as perceived by the common populace is in fact a sidearm, a<BR>
> pistol, or other small personal weapon.  This could be the terminology<BR>
> that FS Marketing my have shot for.  If so then no slander is warented and<BR>
> FS is within their rights of advertising.  Indeed the hull and armour of<BR>
> the Forklift may well deflect most X-TEK personal weapons fire including<BR>
> the S/99 "Special" and M/1100 "Millenium" Gauss pistols.  It is not yet<BR>
> been determined if the "Cricket" class of fusion pistol, hyperdense sabot<BR>
> pistol, or fusion SMG can penetrate the FS Forklift but tests are underway<BR>
> and are likely to reveil positive results.<BR>
<BR>
Hate to tell you this, but FS is right and X-Tek is wrong as far as the<BR>
definition of "small arms" is concerned. It's both a military term<BR>
*and* a term in International law!<BR>
<BR>
The breakdown in the article I'm looking at goes like this:<BR>
<BR>
Small arms:	pistols, revolvers, rifles and carbines<BR>
Light weapons:	machine guns, small mortars, and other weapons that can<BR>
		be carried by one or two people<BR>
<BR>
I assume there's a third category of "heavy weapons" which are any "man<BR>
portable" (milspeak for "it's got handles and the test group *was* able<BR>
to move it more than its own length before collapsing" :-) units.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:24:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Also, look at desert strom - strategic bombing was used there, but the<BR>
> weapons were "smarter" and hit their targets more often.  I was watching<BR>
> CNN when they showed a slide with the amount of bomb tonnage dropped to<BR>
> destroy a target in WW2, vs Korea, vs Desert Storm.<<BR>
><BR>
> With the corollaries being;<BR>
> 1. Kuwait wasn't liberated until ground troops went in.<BR>
> 2. Hussein is still in power as Baghdad was never occupied.<BR>
> So much for the success of strategic bombing.<BR>
<BR>
Deposing Saddam Hussein was never a goal. Much as we dislike him, have<BR>
*you* taken a look at the likely *replacements*? Keep in mind that<BR>
*occupying* Iraq is out of the question politically. The Arab world<BR>
wouldn't stand for it.<BR>
<BR>
Given that, leaving him in power but *trying* to get him to moderate<BR>
his actions *is* the only real choice, like it or not.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:11:15 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Moin Katharine Whitchurch,<BR>
<BR>
> Number one is that armed robots have been a no-no for the Imperium since the<BR>
> very early days (?the Shudasham Concords?).<BR>
<BR>
  The Shudusham concord had been -110 and does not claim armed bots illegal,<BR>
  but claims that the owner of a bot is responsible for the action of a bot.<BR>
  This wont cause production and use of armed bots for war. But many worlds<BR>
  add to the Shudusham Concord, that if the owner of the bot could not be<BR>
  trialed, the next legal claims can be made to the importer or manufacturer.<BR>
<BR>
  This cause that any main manufacturer in the imperium does not produce<BR>
  armed bots - so armed bots are something you'll have to obtain from the<BR>
  black marked. On the other hand side the PR-317 widely available in the<BR>
  late 3I. The company producing this police robot, does not sell armed<BR>
  variants to private people, only to government organisation imperial<BR>
  companies and the like.<BR>
<BR>
> These pressures against warbots could lead to them being outside the 'box'<BR>
> of Imperial military thought. This could be another reason with the Imperial<BR>
> unease with the Zhodani - their use of warbots is another thing (along with<BR>
> psionics) that makes them 'not us'.<BR>
<BR>
  Hivers and Zhos are known to use milibots. Both socialities think that<BR>
  intelligent soldiers should be used for intelligent jobs, while the<BR>
  wetwork can be done by robots.<BR>
<BR>
> Thus thought on warbots could be theoretical - they are one of the things<BR>
> that just 'arent done'.<BR>
<BR>
  I think that an 'intelligent' moving minefield could be done at TL:8.<BR>
  This minefield would be able to scout, move, hide and fire at any moving<BR>
  thing that does not send the right transponder. So it is not able to<BR>
  distinguis between horses, civilians, cars, ... but only between friends<BR>
  (moving targets that transpond right) and foes (moving targets to kill).<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:09:26 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
>From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
<BR>
I like your corporate profile, and have adapted it to a<BR>
wholly-owned subsidiary situation:<BR>
<BR>
************<BR>
<BR>
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, LIC, a wholly-owned subsidiary<BR>
of GsBAG, LIC<BR>
HQ:   Terra/Sol/Solomani Rim<BR>
employees:  2 (about 150)<BR>
range/influence:  C (Sol Subsector)<BR>
public image: 9 (good corporate citizen)<BR>
R&D: 35% (a primary function)<BR>
turnover:  5%<BR>
nature: WOS (wholly-owned subsidiary)<BR>
area of operations: util (designs various drives, primarily<BR>
for use in starships; does no large scale manufacturing)<BR>
tradition:  3<BR>
corporate politics:  5<BR>
paranoia:  4<BR>
nationality: Im<BR>
date of this profile:  001-1110<BR>
<BR>
This corporation is known to the TML, if at all, as the<BR>
employer of Glenn MacRae Goffin, Esquire, Honorary Consul<BR>
to Terra of the Government of the Planet Mongo and Its Most<BR>
Protuberant and Munificent Ruler, Ming the Merciless.  Mr.<BR>
Goffin is general counsel to Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems.<BR>
<BR>
GsBAG purchased Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems from the<BR>
bankruptcy trustee after John Bigbooty's disappearance in<BR>
about -2300.<BR>
<BR>
************<BR>
<BR>
One area not well developed in the corporate profile is<BR>
ownership.  "Nature" touches on that, but I would want to<BR>
know who owns how much.  (In this case, e.g., GsBAG owns<BR>
100%.) <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 13:11:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Hyperdense cutlass?<BR>
<BR>
We had a discussion about the hyper-dense cutlass awhile back.  Well, The<BR>
Powers that Be want it in GF.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody still have the stats lying around?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:15:23 -0500 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm [mailto:jenry023@student.liu.se]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, 05 June 2000 14:55<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: [OT] Amry of Darkness a Traveller Movie?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> "Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
> > I have this film on  DVD  (mail-ordered  from  the  US)  and  VHS<BR>
> > (purchased in UK store).  The *UK* version has a  different  line<BR>
> > for some reason:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > [After shooting Bad Ash]<BR>
> > Ash: [to Bad Ash] I ain't *that* good!<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I have no idea why this should be different.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have seen both these versions. I have also seen two <BR>
> different endings<BR>
> for the movie. One ending (the most common, it would seem) is in the<BR>
> supermarket. The final line of the other ending is "Oh no! I slept too<BR>
> long!" (Ash wakes up to find that civilzation has collapsed).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are *at least* three different versions of the movie 'Army of Darkness.'<BR>
<BR>
1. Original theatrical release - this is the version shown in the US cinema.  It has the "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun' line and the S-Mart ending.<BR>
<BR>
2. Expanded version - this version is often shown on TV (especially the Skiffy channel).  It has an expanded 'windmill' scene and various other small additions, but a few things are cut so as not to offend the delicate TV audience.<BR>
<BR>
3. Original Directors Cut - this is the version of the film Sam Raimi gave to the studio.  The studio then proceeded to cut apx 15 minutes out of the film before release (thus creating the original theatrical release - no 1 above).  It has the "I ain't that good' line.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I've got 1 and 3 on DVD, and 2 on tape.<BR>
<BR>
Yep.  I'm and Evil Dead Head. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:19:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Some real world lapses that suggest possible adventure<BR>
>seeds, bits snipped from<BR>
<BR>
I note that these are lapses by British intelligence.  Do<BR>
other countries' spies keep better track of their laptops,<BR>
or is the UK the only country to admit the losses?  <BR>
<BR>
"Ah, come in 007.  This is a ticklish situation.  Do try<BR>
not to leave to many bodies in your wake this time.  The<BR>
problem boils down to this.  We are missing a 'notebook<BR>
computer' -- about which Q will give you details -- that<BR>
was apparently left at Charing Cross Station.  The clerk<BR>
who forgot it on the bench while commuting home from work<BR>
last night will be sacked when she comes in this morning. <BR>
You will follow her and find out who she's working for,<BR>
then report back to us."<BR>
<BR>
oh, sorry, wrong game.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:56:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
At 3:07 -0400 5/6/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>The Mark IX anti-mine-clearing-bot-bot looks like a normal Mark VII<BR>
>crab-mine. It's expolosive load is more more powerful and the "random<BR>
>walk" process has an added "attractor" criteria for mine-clearing<BR>
>robots.<BR>
<BR>
I prefer the MkV Ogre as a mine clearing robot ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:05:07 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam Light Export Forklift<BR>
<BR>
At 11:04 -0400 5/6/00, William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net> wrote:<BR>
>Relations between Famille Spofulam and X-TEK/MIDI remain to be stable.<BR>
>The corporate treaty of Deneb does say that in the event of a FS/TEK trade<BR>
>war, as there was durring the civil war, the Imperium will get directly<BR>
>involved as such a tradewar could inevitably destroy the Imperium if left<BR>
>unchecked. The involvement would include infiltrating both companies with<BR>
>assault penguins and crack Zen commandoes both supplied by Gridlore<BR>
>Technologies in an attempt to make both companies contemplate fair<BR>
>business practices.  It is this threat of MADASS (Mutualy Assured<BR>
>Destruction of Assets and Stablization of Sanity) that has kept the<BR>
>friendly competition between X-TEK and FS for so long.<BR>
<BR>
Sob.<BR>
<BR>
You've made me start to pine for the halcyon days of T4 back in 96/97 <BR>
when IG was new, and Traveller had wonderful THUDDDs and the <BR>
flamewars were at least about fighters vs lasers and pirates with <BR>
logic and fun...<BR>
<BR>
Dom :-/<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:57:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
>My previous post wasn't aimed specifically at you Chris, but it was easier<BR>
>to clip some of your thread to focus my response, no disrespect intended.<BR>
<BR>
None taken.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't think they should or could "replace" the organic soldier but<BR>
augment<BR>
>them.<BR>
<BR>
Then that's a completely different argument. I think that it's silly to<BR>
believe that automated weapons systems will not be used by soldiers in the<BR>
future. I think that this is inevitable. This is not where the discussion<BR>
was when you popped in.<BR>
<BR>
>They will be useful tools to add to the squad.  We are just arguing<BR>
>over how smart is the robot.  We can agree to disagree on how "intelligent"<BR>
>they will be at higher tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
From about the 1950s on, sci-fi authors and sci-fi fans thought that<BR>
sentient computers were "right around the corner". A lot of this had to do<BR>
with the widely held notion that computers and human brains were very<BR>
similar. Both were seen simply as "file cabinets" which worked on the same<BR>
rules. In recent years we've made great advances in our understanding of the<BR>
human brain and our understanding of computer theory. We've learned that<BR>
human brains don't work the way we initially thought that they did and that<BR>
there would be big problems in making computers which will simulate the<BR>
human brain convincingly.<BR>
<BR>
It's proving to be a lot harder than many people think. The human brain is<BR>
weird, I mean really extremely bizarre.<BR>
<BR>
>I am not the one degrading the ability<BR>
>of the Robots, that is canon limiting the AI, if anything I think they<BR>
>should be less limited.<BR>
<BR>
I said that you were limiting the usefulness of the robots because you were<BR>
setting up conditions which must be met by robotic soldiers in order for<BR>
them to win against human soldiers. This means that they are less useful<BR>
than human soldiers. Specifically, you were saying that they would require a<BR>
quantifiable and overwhelming superiority over creative defenders. This has<BR>
nothing to do with the intelligence of the robots.<BR>
<BR>
>There have been lots of movies about the renegade<BR>
>newly sentient cyborg or robot and we can all agree I think that the<BR>
>potential for a free thinking warbot can have some serious ramifications.<BR>
<BR>
Ach! That's not what I've been saying at all. Not too long ago, I was on a<BR>
webpage and I read something to the effect of, "If there was a sci-fi movie<BR>
made about industrial robots before industrial robots were actually made,<BR>
the robot would go insane. The robot would cause property damage, probably<BR>
take a few lives, and then everybody in the movie would agree in the<BR>
sensibility of human workers." I laughed, because it's true.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not basing my position on movies which show us the dark possibilities of<BR>
allowing computers to think. I'm basing my position on the notion that it's<BR>
impossible to create a versatile robot without creative artificial<BR>
intelligence.<BR>
<BR>
>My whole point was that the OTU disregarded Moore's Law and the tech<BR>
>advances of computing and AI.<BR>
<BR>
Then it would have been helpful if you had said that in the first place. :)<BR>
<BR>
Still, there's is no evidence that the people who created the official<BR>
Traveller universe even knew about Moore's Law, which would be necessary for<BR>
them to disregard it. Please keep in mind that Moore's law isn't a law in<BR>
the sense that the laws of physics are laws. The boom that Moore's Law<BR>
predicted has run into problems in the past. Moore's original "law" said<BR>
that there would be a yearly increase, Moore's revised "law" says that the<BR>
increase comes every eighteen months. If my understanding of the future of<BR>
Moore's Law is correct a physical wall will be hit sometime in about the<BR>
first quarter of the 21st century.<BR>
<BR>
That doesn't mean that better processors won't be built, but it does mean<BR>
that some new way to manufacture them must be discovered.<BR>
<BR>
>I think that computers and robots in the<BR>
>future will have much greater abilities and will be very simple to use.<BR>
<BR>
There is no doubt that computers and robots in the future will have much<BR>
greater abilities and that they will be very simple to use. That does not<BR>
mean that computers and robots in the future will be able to be as versatile<BR>
as human soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
Graphical User Interfaces, for example, make computers much easier to use.<BR>
Graphical User Interfaces do not make a computer imaginative. Perhaps in<BR>
twenty years we'll all have wearable computers which are obnoxiously easy to<BR>
use. This doesn't mean that the wearable computers will suddenly become<BR>
creative. Perhaps these wearable computers may contain expert systems which<BR>
are simple to interface with. This doesn't mean that they will suddenly have<BR>
resourcefulness.<BR>
<BR>
In the future, computers will have capabilities which computers today don't<BR>
have. Unless there is a really big breakthrough in theory and practice,<BR>
which is probably possible but which isn't right on the horizon, computers<BR>
will continue to work like computers.<BR>
<BR>
>We are still taking baby steps with regard to AI.  I am not sure if you<BR>
want to<BR>
>incorporate a positronic brain into your TU, but the idea is that it will<BR>
be<BR>
>a very close approximation of the sentient mind, at least the human mind.<BR>
<BR>
Positronic brains aren't real, and it is unlikely that they ever will be<BR>
real. At the time that Asimov coined the terms, positrons were "new". He<BR>
didn't use the term "positronic" because positrons would allow a very close<BR>
approximation of the sentient mind. He used the term "positronic" because it<BR>
sounded sufficiently futuristic. Any time you see positronic brains appear<BR>
in other works of sci-fi it's not because positronic brains are plausible,<BR>
but because other sci-fi authors are paying homage to Isaac Asimov.<BR>
<BR>
>You might not be able to distinguish between true intelligence and just<BR>
>really good programming at high tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
Then again, you would, if you know the system's weaknesses and what it has<BR>
trouble with.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2554<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:03:02 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:02:31 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA05283;<BR>
	Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:01:25 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:00:22 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA05187<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:00:22 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:00:22 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006052100.RAA05187@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2554<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2555</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/5/00 4:24:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 5 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2555<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Meat Machines (was: Milibots)<BR>
RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Fighters and Missiles (Equation Corrections)<BR>
RE: Fighters and Missiles (Equation Corrections)<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
Re: non-SF Games<BR>
Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
re: Lost Secrets<BR>
re: Lost Secrets<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:59:12 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith wrote,<BR>
>We've been talking Europe.  Strategic bombing in the Pacific was<BR>
different, but I think you're painting it with the same brush.<<BR>
<BR>
Right, in the Pacific it escalated to the level of mass murder much more<BR>
quickly. And resulted in mass suicide orders for longer as well.<BR>
<BR>
>We've been at an impasse of duelling opinions for some time now,<BR>
with no progress either way.  I do not think you are giving the<BR>
military commanders of the day enough credit for the situation they<BR>
were in, the equipment they had available, and the fact that they were<BR>
taking part in a long-term experiment with a new tactic.  I believe<BR>
that your position is that the heavy losses, combined with the<BR>
knowledge that German production increased during the assault, should<BR>
have dissuaded the Allied air commanders from continuing the experiment.<<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't.<BR>
One of my positions is that the heavy losses the Germans suffered trying to<BR>
bomb England into submission, combined with the knowledge of how England<BR>
survived it and the losses suffered on the early raids should have dissuaded<BR>
the Allied high command from believing the unproven (and close to absolutely<BR>
disproves) assertions of the strategic air theorists.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, wait...that's right...the Allies ***DIDN'T KNOW*** that German<BR>
production was increasing...not until after the war, that is.<<BR>
<BR>
Well actually the number of vehicles they kept encountering at the front<BR>
should have told them that, never mind intelligence reports from inside<BR>
Germany. Or is that too much to expect from the intelligence and analyses<BR>
people?<BR>
<BR>
>OK, then, the WW2 experience should have taught us that strategic<BR>
bombing doesn't work, so no more strategic bombers should be built...<<BR>
<BR>
Or it teaches us that people who put too much into a failed policy will do<BR>
anything to cover themselves afterwards.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, wait...that's right...the end of WW2 gave us bombs that could<BR>
eradicate an entire industrial center with one shot.  Now the<BR>
equation changes again.<<BR>
<BR>
And a new method of delivering them, or will that be ignored too?<BR>
Or does this mean you want to take a Pro position supporting MAD now? Yes,<BR>
mutual genocide makes so much sense as a valid strategic plan not to mention<BR>
moral position.<BR>
<BR>
>20/20 hindsight is nice.  It lets you watch other people walk into walls<BR>
and laugh, right before you back into a pit.<<BR>
<BR>
Which is why I keep basing my primary argument on the evidence they had at<BR>
the time. The Luftwaffe proved it wouldn't work during the battle of<BR>
Britain. They proved that it wouldn't break the spirit of the people bombed.<BR>
They proved it was better for terror bombing than for destruction of<BR>
strategic assets.  The secondary argument of its immorality merely enhances<BR>
it.<BR>
Now if someone else wishes to engage in 20/20 whitewashing and say the air<BR>
commanders were utter morons and couldn't have realized this, feel free. Or<BR>
assert that the political leaders had their heads firmly mislocated to<BR>
insist this policy continue, again feel free. I guess expecting competence<BR>
and a modicum of responsibility in leadership, especially during wartime, is<BR>
too much. How idealistically stupid of me.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:59:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> It reminds me of something Kojak said, to the effect of,<BR>
> "yeah, great, get the eyewitness statements.  You know how<BR>
> eyewitness statements go -- you end up looking for a fat,<BR>
> skinny red-headed bald guy, with one eye blue, one eye<BR>
> brown, and the third eye gray."<BR>
<BR>
The suspect description from hell:<BR>
<BR>
Average height, average weight, brown hair, wearing jeans, sneakers and<BR>
a T-shirt. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:27:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Meat Machines (was: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> them to disregard it. Please keep in mind that Moore's law isn't a law in<BR>
> the sense that the laws of physics are laws. The boom that Moore's Law<BR>
> predicted has run into problems in the past. Moore's original "law" said<BR>
> that there would be a yearly increase, Moore's revised "law" says that the<BR>
> increase comes every eighteen months. If my understanding of the future of<BR>
> Moore's Law is correct a physical wall will be hit sometime in about the<BR>
> first quarter of the 21st century.<BR>
><BR>
> That doesn't mean that better processors won't be built, but it does mean<BR>
> that some new way to manufacture them must be discovered.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This assumes that the 'faster' processor isn't discarded as having reached<BR>
it full potential, to be replaced by something like massively parallel<BR>
computers, or perhaps biological/electronic hybrids.  Meat machines anyone?<BR>
Perhaps AI is only awaiting some organic computer that sophont sentience<BR>
though replication of structure.  A tailored organic computer that doesn't<BR>
need to regular autonomic functions (like breathing), manipulate limbs and<BR>
al the myriad 'housekeeping' details that a normal sophon brain must do.<BR>
<BR>
One an imagine some grotesque, hyperlobic blob of super-brain quivering in<BR>
it's nutrient vat, its organic structures linked to advanced electronic<BR>
sensors and remote devices, a kind of idiot savant biologically engineered<BR>
and 'programmed' for it's specific purpose. Devoid of unnecessary regions,<BR>
with others being hypertrophied.<BR>
<BR>
And being organic, subject to all that entails.<BR>
<BR>
"Sir, our strategic computer has contracted meningitis (syphilis, rabies,<BR>
etc)"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:20:17 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>It reminds me of something Kojak said, to the effect of,<BR>
>"yeah, great, get the eyewitness statements.  You know how<BR>
>eyewitness statements go -- you end up looking for a fat,<BR>
>skinny red-headed bald guy, with one eye blue, one eye<BR>
>brown, and the third eye gray."<BR>
<BR>
Kojak is indeed wise. Who else could say, "Wax your skis, let's get outta<BR>
here?" and make it sound cynical? Kojak is indeed wise.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:30:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>> The suspect description from hell:<BR>
><BR>
> Average height, average weight, brown hair, wearing jeans, sneakers and<BR>
> a T-shirt.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I just heard on NPR that the FBI is still looking for the 'Average Bank<BR>
Robber'.  Apparently, he's just so average that they haven't been able to<BR>
get a good description.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:20:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fighters and Missiles (Equation Corrections)<BR>
<BR>
Note, I had made some errors with the equations.  Basically, distance travelled should be <BR>
halved and velocity should be doubled.  I don't think this changes the basic conclusions <BR>
however.<BR>
<BR>
Right Equations:<BR>
distance = 0.5 X acceleration X time squared<BR>
velocity = acceleration X time<BR>
<BR>
The equations I had used were:<BR>
distance = acceleration X time squared<BR>
velocity = 0.5 X  acceleration X time<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:39:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fighters and Missiles (Equation Corrections)<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Right Equations:<BR>
> distance = 0.5 X acceleration X time squared<BR>
> velocity = acceleration X time<BR>
> <BR>
> The equations I had used were:<BR>
> distance = acceleration X time squared<BR>
> velocity = 0.5 X  acceleration X time<BR>
<BR>
Just to be picky:<BR>
<BR>
velocity = velocity(initial) + acceleration X time<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:42:30 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12<BR>
<BR>
"N.I.C.Bradbeer" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Alright, what's happened? I turn my back for a month to have exams, and<BR>
> an entire design competition disappears off the face of the planet.<BR>
<BR>
I extended the deadline to 1 June 2000, due to National Guard annual<BR>
training and BayCon attendance.  I'm currently compiling the HTML to<BR>
post the THUDDD 12 entries for voting.  I expect to have it up by this<BR>
weekend.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 13:42:40 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
"The [Shudasham] concords have _no_ legal force in the<BR>
Third Imperium, but they have served as a model for many <BR>
high-tech world's documents governing the manufacture<BR>
and use of robots."<BR>
<BR>
"The Concords contain seven articles:<BR>
Article 4: Gives guidelines for when and where weapons<BR>
are allowed or prohibited."<BR>
<BR>
CT BK. 8 Robots p 6<BR>
<BR>
Thus we see that some Imperial Worlds or Mega Corporations<BR>
may indeed make armed robots quite legally. Their planet<BR>
may not follow the Concords or their robots may be armed in<BR>
accordance with the Concord. [1]<BR>
<BR>
Another possibility is that non built in weapons may<BR>
be legal under the Concord in circumstances where built<BR>
in ones are not. Thus a built in rifle might be illegal<BR>
while issuing a robot a regular (designed for humans)<BR>
rifle might be allowed.<BR>
<BR>
Combat effectiveness is not the sole criteria worlds<BR>
use in fielding troops. A rich or high tech world might <BR>
consider some conflicts worth sending in a robotic army<BR>
but not worth the risk of the loss of life of human troops<BR>
(example: the US in the Balkans, where great pains were<BR>
taken to avoid US casualties). Even if the robots are in fact <BR>
less effective than human soldiers the loss of robots may<BR>
have lower political consequences than the loss of human troops.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Such a corporation, a trade Federation if you will,<BR>
might well send its robotic army out to conquer a small out<BR>
of the way planet. Such robots might well conquer the planet<BR>
unless the planets young Marquis received the aid of<BR>
powerful warriors with psionic powers....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:55:02 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
At 17:00 -0400 5/6/00, Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>(Call me heretic if you like, but I really think that<BR>
>there's room for a Traveller sourcebook about running<BR>
adventures on 1 planet only.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the world of Tarsus... or the Bowman Belt (Beltstrike) <BR>
which are single system modules for Traveller...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:55:35 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:07:02 -0400 (EDT), Steve Daniels<BR>
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>   ObTrav: hey, do you think that a career-based char-gen system might<BR>
>> be of use in SF-RPG's?                                            :)<BR>
<BR>
>Don't make my type up my Medieval Traveller chargen.<BR>
<BR>
I dare you! I double-dare you! And I triple-dare you to give me<BR>
permission to post it to Freelance Traveller!<BR>
<BR>
(Gee, why didn't I think of this method to get new good stuff<BR>
before?) :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:59:03 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:00:22 -0400 (EDT), Arthur Boff<BR>
<ajboff@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Don't make my type up my Medieval Traveller chargen.<BR>
<BR>
>As crazy as it sounds, I'd actually like to see this.<BR>
>It would be really useful for rolling up characters on<BR>
>low-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Very true - A lot of people forget that just because Traveller is<BR>
SF, doesn't mean that you'll always have access to grav vehicles<BR>
and lasers.<BR>
<BR>
>(Call me heretic if you like, but I really think that<BR>
>there's room for a Traveller sourcebook about running<BR>
>adventures on 1 planet only. The PCs could be the<BR>
>heads of the local government. They'd have to deal<BR>
>with running the colony, keeping the peace,<BR>
>suppressing revolt, and dealing with those annoying<BR>
>spacers and their violent mercenary buddies...)<BR>
<BR>
... and if you do an article about running single-planet<BR>
Traveller campaigns (and/or low-tech Traveller campaigns), I'll<BR>
guarantee space for it at Freelance Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:06:24 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
Actually, both the pentagon and the state department also recently reported losing laptops with sensitive information.  I still have the articles somewhere.  They were both lost the same way, somebody left them lying about untended.  Whoops!<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:04:16 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:00:22 -0400 (EDT), Glenn Goffin<BR>
<gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>>Some real world lapses that suggest possible adventure<BR>
>>seeds, bits snipped from<BR>
<BR>
>I note that these are lapses by British intelligence.  Do<BR>
>other countries' spies keep better track of their laptops,<BR>
>or is the UK the only country to admit the losses?  <BR>
<BR>
Well, it wasn't specifically our intelligence agencies, but there<BR>
was a couple of recents in the news here about laptops with<BR>
secret info going missing at State... (for those few of you who<BR>
might not understand American, our State Department is what most<BR>
other countries would call the Foreign Ministry.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:17:47 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Ian wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>A couple of good points have been raised.<BR>
><BR>
>Firstly, the 'moving minefield' theory of warbots is probably valid, but<BR>
>there are a couple of social objections to this.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that there would likely be social objections. As I noted in a recent<BR>
post, I've been moving away from the notion of the 20th century notion of<BR>
total war toward a 19th century notion of "gentleman's wars". Quite a few<BR>
things change on that paradigm.<BR>
<BR>
>Number one is that armed robots have been a no-no for the Imperium since<BR>
the<BR>
>very early days (?the Shudasham Concords?). The analogy to the<BR>
international<BR>
>pressure against landmines is well made - warbots may be bad at telling<BR>
>civilians from troops, and that is a recepie for winning the war but losing<BR>
>the peace due to third-party pressure.<BR>
<BR>
The Shudusham Concord has become something of a handwave, at least in the<BR>
time that I've been here on the list. Armed robots exist within the<BR>
Imperium, and armed robots can be built within the framework of the<BR>
Shudusham Concord. Take a look at "Book 8: Robots". It's across the room<BR>
from me right now and sheer laziness keeps me from getting it and offering a<BR>
quote. In the section on Shudusham an outline of the document is given. The<BR>
fourth section, if my memory serves me, covers what kind of armaments are<BR>
allowed. The fifth section, if my memory serves me, covers how robots may be<BR>
programmed to use these armaments. I don't believe that there are any<BR>
guidelines given on exactly what is contained in these two sections, but it<BR>
clearly indicates that even within the framework of Shudusham Concord armed<BR>
robots are possible.<BR>
<BR>
The Shudusham Concord is not a legal document in the Imperium, and it has no<BR>
real force behind it. I am unclear on the reasons why megacorps even feel<BR>
the need to follow the Shudusham Concord.<BR>
<BR>
>Number two is that the Imperium is strongly against total war. War has<BR>
>rules, and one of the big Imperial rules is against long term social and<BR>
>economic damage. A couple of programming glitches and you could have a<BR>
>number of massacres on your hands - and you can't arrest, try and then hang<BR>
>a robot.<BR>
<BR>
Of course you can't arrest, try and hang a robot. You can arrest, try and<BR>
hang a robot's owner, of course, which is part of the reason given for why<BR>
the Shudusham Concord came into existence at all.<BR>
<BR>
Still, the Imperial rules of war have been blown out of proportion in the<BR>
last few (real)years. They went from an unwritten set of guidelines which<BR>
mercenary units followed to a hard and fast set of clearly defined rules.<BR>
Personally, I really think that this is a big step in the wrong direction. I<BR>
do think that the whole point of the Imperial rules of war is that<BR>
individual mercenary groups follow these rules out of some notion of honor,<BR>
not out of the fear of being whacked by a big stick.<BR>
<BR>
Mercenaries honor repatriation bonds because they would want an opposing<BR>
force to honor their repatriation bonds. They don't use weapons of mass<BR>
destruction because they wouldn't want an opposing force to use weapons of<BR>
mass destruction against them. Along these lines, they may not use various<BR>
types of "warbots" because they wouldn't want these "warbots" to be used<BR>
against them.<BR>
<BR>
Of course the Imperial rules of war, whatever their nature and origins might<BR>
be, do not apply outside of the Imperium. This is where the "good war / bad<BR>
war" dichotomy comes from. Wars within the Imperium are relatively safe.<BR>
Wars outside of the Imperium are really dangerous. There are a lot of little<BR>
polities on the edges of the Imperium, and not all of these little polities<BR>
play "fair". There are also some big civilizations on the edges of the<BR>
Imperium, and canonically, some of these guys don't play "fair". The Zhodani<BR>
and Hivers are both known to design warbots.<BR>
<BR>
Lurking behind this, there's still another question which I haven't seen<BR>
people address with respect to the third Imperium. When does a conventional<BR>
weapon, given some degree of autonomy, become a "robot"? The minecrabs which<BR>
I made up on the spur of the moment are little more than warheads which move<BR>
unconventionally. Practically, they're not a whole hell of a lot different<BR>
than ordinary weapons. You point them at your enemy and they go off and blow<BR>
themselves up. In a sense, they are simply missiles with legs.<BR>
<BR>
What's the point at which a missile becomes a robot?<BR>
<BR>
<snipped the bit about conventional minefields as I don't have a thing to<BR>
say about them one way or another><BR>
<BR>
>These pressures against warbots could lead to them being outside the 'box'<BR>
>of Imperial military thought. This could be another reason with the<BR>
Imperial<BR>
>unease with the Zhodani - their use of warbots is another thing (along with<BR>
>psionics) that makes them 'not us'.<BR>
><BR>
>Thus thought on warbots could be theoretical - they are one of the things<BR>
>that just 'arent done'.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose anything's possible, but I don't see this as a likely scenario.<BR>
Whether warbots are used in the Imperium or not is a different question from<BR>
whether or not warbots might be used by the Imperium, or whether or not<BR>
warbots might be designed by megacorps traditionally associated with the<BR>
Imperium. Warbots of various sorts do indeed exist in the Official Traveller<BR>
Universe. The Zhodani use them, the Hivers use them and they also export<BR>
them. It's not like these things exist only in the realm of theory. They do<BR>
exist and their utility would certainly be known to the Imperium. Indeed,<BR>
"Book 8: Robots" informs us that Hiver warbots are of such quality that<BR>
their import into the Imperium is illegal.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:27:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I think that this whole milbot thing is off in the wrong direction. The<BR>
idea<BR>
>> shouldn't be to use milbots as one for one replacements for sophont<BR>
>> soldiers. The idea should be to make individual milbots more effective<BR>
than<BR>
>> individual soldiers. Don't play the intuitive and creativity game because<BR>
>> only a sophont robot can win that. Instead if you're fielding milbots<BR>
make<BR>
>> the enemy play to your strengths. Which are...?<BR>
>><BR>
>> 1. Mobility-if you're talking grav technology higher speed. With sonar or<BR>
>> radar or ladar a robot should be able to move NOE much faster than an<BR>
>> unaugmented human. And the robot should be able to carry a higher load.<BR>
And<BR>
>> there is no need to sleep, carry food, etc. Endurance is a factor of the<BR>
>> kind of power source. Fusion last forever as far as this kind of use<BR>
goes.<BR>
>> Energy cells mean that your robot has a definite mission duration limit,<BR>
>> which may be extended with solar augmentation or other recharge options.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, it's likely that you *don't* want to use grav technology for<BR>
>anything smaller than a grav tank, simply because CG units have a<BR>
>sensor signature that's as bad as jet engines or rockets on an IR<BR>
>sensor. Probably *worse*.<BR>
<BR>
>In other words, a big, fat "shoot me" sign. This tends to annoy the<BR>
>troops that have to work with them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Kind of like all those CG equipped PGMP-11's and FGMP-12's used in GT(p110)?<BR>
<BR>
>> 2. Firepower - the higher load carrying capacity of the robot should be<BR>
used<BR>
>> to field heavier weapons. The no artillery support should be superfluous.<BR>
A<BR>
>> milrobot should be its own artillery support. So you don't let a squad of<BR>
>> sophonts sucker you into trading shots. You locate them and hit them with<BR>
>> heavy weapons from outside their weapon range.<BR>
<BR>
>Unless the robot is a small tank, the only weapon it's apt to carry<BR>
>that'll outrange the enemy is a mortar. And it'll have limited rounds<BR>
>for that.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect a VRFGG-10 would have a much higher mobility and probably greater<BR>
hit ratio mounted on a robot than fired from a tripod. And the 20m ETC chain<BR>
gun, normally used on a light vehicle and the various Fusion and Plasma<BR>
weapons that require battledress to use would certainly be mountable on a<BR>
robot. Against soldiers in CES armed with lasers or Gauss rifles I'd bet on<BR>
the robots.<BR>
<BR>
>> 4. Armor - It goes without saying that these things should be heavily<BR>
>> armored. Small arms should be no threat. If the enemy troops have<BR>
anti-armor<BR>
>> weapons then you'll lose some robots, but they'd only be vulnerable if<BR>
the<BR>
>> living soldiers saw them first. If the robots see the fire team first<BR>
they<BR>
>> just make sure everything in the target area dies.<BR>
><BR>
>> Don't think The Phantom Menace here, think Terminator.<BR>
<BR>
>Terminator ain't gonna happen. You *can't* make a human sized robot<BR>
>that tough from any materials likely to be developed. Certainly not<BR>
>with what's avialable in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't thinking human sized. I was talking about the weapon platform types<BR>
that were shown during the future surface combat sequences. Maybe I should<BR>
have said, "Think Bailey's" instead of "Think Terminator."<BR>
<BR>
Under GURPS Ultra-Tech rules as modified for Traveller a Meson Communicator<BR>
weighs 300 lbs, but a meson receiver only adds 5 lbs to a short or medium<BR>
range communicator. At GTL8 a medium range communicator is good for 200<BR>
miles and weighs 1 lb so a meson receiver is 6 lbs at GTL10. At GTL12 a<BR>
meson communicator is 75 lbs and a receiver  is 1.5 lbs.  Location has to be<BR>
known within 20 yards.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:54:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Thanks leonard - saved me the trouble :)<BR>
<BR>
That article did bring to light for me some of what it would be like in some<BR>
non-imperial areas (Varger Extents etc..).. I think that it is good<BR>
background reading for _why_ the Imperial Rules of War exist and are<BR>
enforced *(I know that they are not written down, but just use a nuke on a<BR>
high pop planet, and watch the Imperial Marines come streaming in FGMP's<BR>
ready)*<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:09 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/5/00 6:57 AM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Also, not to argue for or agenst Landmines -<BR>
>><BR>
>> There is a very intresting article in this months SciAm. It points out<BR>
that<BR>
>> assult rifles (small arms) cause many many more civilian casulitiys then<BR>
>> land mines - during and after the conflicts today - one of the articles<BR>
is<BR>
>> at http://www.sciam.com/2000/0600issue/0600boutwell.html . There are<BR>
> several<BR>
>> others on this topic in the off-line version of the magazine.<BR>
><BR>
> This presupposes that only one side has arms, and that more destructive<BR>
> weapons are not employed.  If the only arms are assault rifles, it follows<BR>
> that assault rifles cause the most casualties.<BR>
<BR>
Read the article(s) *before* responding.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is "small arms", with assualt rifles merely being the most<BR>
common type.<BR>
<BR>
And it does *not* depend on only one side having weapons. It's mostly a<BR>
case of the people with the weapons not giving a damn whether the folks<BR>
they shoot are enemy forces or enemy civilians.<BR>
<BR>
These folks don't know about the Geneva Conventions, and many wouldn't<BR>
care about them if they did.<BR>
<BR>
Also, far too many of them are kids. I don't meen teenagers, I mean<BR>
*children* down to age *5* in some cases.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:09:41 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
Worse, the ones in the state Department we left unattended in people's<BR>
offices...the big problem isn't that laptops containing classified<BR>
information are missing, it was that people apparently could walk in off<BR>
the street and wander about unchallenged in the State department; on top<BR>
of the recent soviet bugging of a conference room a few doors down from<BR>
the secretary of state's office, it points out our security there was a<BR>
mite bit porous.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: GM's, send the PC's off on a 'swipe the datadisk' mission into a<BR>
supposedly guarded building. Let them waltz in, take it and leave.<BR>
<BR>
Watch PC's go absolutely batshit trying to figure out the 'trap'...<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, both the pentagon and the state department also recently reported losing laptops with sensitive information.  I still have the articles somewhere.  They were both lost the same way, somebody left them lying about untended.  Whoops!<BR>
> <BR>
> Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:11:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Here we go..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Pinkerdoo Design Group (1910 Regina) 1-D25-90?? WOS Non F99 Im<BR>
<BR>
Name:         Pinkerdoo Design Group<BR>
HQ:           1910 / Regina / Regina / Spinward Marches<BR>
Employees:    1 (92)<BR>
Range:        D (multi-subsector or sector)<BR>
Influence:    2 (low)<BR>
Public Image: 5 (good)<BR>
R&D:          90 (%)<BR>
Turnover(Cr): Unknown<BR>
Profit(Cr):   Unknown<BR>
Nature:       WOS (Wholly-Owned Subsidiary)<BR>
Areas:        Non (Nonclassifiable)<BR>
Tradition:    F (Nontraditional)<BR>
Corp Politics:9 (Little)<BR>
Paranoia:     9 (Little)<BR>
Nationality:  Im (Imperial)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:22:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/5/00 12:54 PM, gmgoffin@yahoo.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Isn't transpiration some function of botanical organisms?<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Transpiration:the act or process or an instance of transpiring; especially :<BR>
the passage of watery vapor from a living body through a membrane or pores<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2555<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (rly-yg03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.3]) by air-yg02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 19:24:23 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 19:24:03 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA11363;<BR>
	Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:22:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:22:40 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA11304<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:22:40 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:22:40 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006052322.TAA11304@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2555<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2556</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/5/00 7:24:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 5 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2556<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Dirtside Traveller<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
HELP<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: HELP<BR>
RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
RE: Lost Secrets<BR>
Re: Dirtside Traveller<BR>
Re: HELP<BR>
MilBots<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
MT/T4 help needed<BR>
Re: Fighters and Missiles (Equation Corrections)<BR>
Re: Milibots and AI<BR>
Re: Skyport Authority<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:22:36 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dirtside Traveller<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:49:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
> From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
> <BR>
> (Call me heretic if you like, but I really think that<BR>
> there's room for a Traveller sourcebook about running<BR>
> adventures on 1 planet only. The PCs could be the<BR>
> heads of the local government. They'd have to deal<BR>
> with running the colony, keeping the peace,<BR>
> suppressing revolt, and dealing with those annoying<BR>
> spacers and their violent mercenary buddies...)<BR>
<BR>
It's called _World Tamer's Handbook_ (not to be confused with _World<BR>
Builder's Handbook_). It's out of print, but you may still be able to find<BR>
a copy through the likes of Downport (http://www.downport.com).<BR>
<BR>
You heretic. ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:58:40 +0930<BR>
From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
On 20000605.122459, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Deposing Saddam Hussein was never a goal.<BR>
<BR>
Aww, c'mon.  30 minutes after satellite images show a likely SH entourage <BR>
entering a building, a sea-launched cruise goes in through the front door <BR>
and takes it out.  Coincidence?<BR>
<BR>
"Deposing Saddam Hussein was never a goal" - what a crock.  About the <BR>
only way you could maintain that stance is if you consider there to be no <BR>
ties between that and liquidation of the target.  Sheesh.<BR>
<BR>
The yanks tried _real_hard_ to terminate SH.  Hell, the CIA even financed <BR>
and engineered at least one coup attempt (that has leaked so far - we'll <BR>
probably hear about others down the track).  Of course, that failed, just <BR>
like the USMIL's other "non-attempts" at blowing him to pieces with <BR>
cruise missiles.<BR>
<BR>
Having failed (again) at acheiving a primary objective, the US <BR>
administration turns to CNN and the media to begin the long-term process <BR>
of brainwashing the public and covering up their failures and mistakes.<BR>
<BR>
"No, it was never our intention to target Saddam directly.  We do not <BR>
condone assassination."<BR>
<BR>
"No, the Patriot system didn't fail at all, the barracks were actually <BR>
blown up by a suicide bomber."<BR>
<BR>
"No, there is no problem with our target identification systems.  Those <BR>
soldiers who you see scrambling out of the APC that one of our Apache's <BR>
just fired at are _not_ British."<BR>
<BR>
Ahhh, the USA - 280,000,000 lemmings, and a force to be reckoned with.<BR>
<BR>
Henry.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:35:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: HELP<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I hate to admit it, but I can't find the URL for ordering the<BR>
Reprints.<BR>
Anyone want to help me out?<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
- ------------------------<BR>
"Never apologize, never explain."<BR>
                           Hunter S. Thompson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:36:58 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Very interesting!  Not a lot of published information <BR>
available publicly for Pinkerdoo.  Kind of makes me<BR>
uneasy; I wonder what their game is?<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps Pinkerdoo was behind the political forces<BR>
which moved the Sector capitol from Regnia to Mora,<BR>
mmmm?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Pinkerdoo Design Group (1910 Regina) 1-D25-90?? WOS Non F99 Im<BR>
<BR>
> R&D:          90 (%)<BR>
> Turnover(Cr): Unknown<BR>
> Profit(Cr):   Unknown<BR>
> Areas:        Non (Nonclassifiable)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:55:21 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: HELP<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Vickers wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, I hate to admit it, but I can't find the URL for ordering the<BR>
> Reprints.<BR>
> Anyone want to help me out?<BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
will piint you in the right direction.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:58:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
You never know... there _are_ just a few of them :)<BR>
<BR>
More information can be found at http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rob<BR>
Eaglestone<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:37 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Very interesting!  Not a lot of published information <BR>
available publicly for Pinkerdoo.  Kind of makes me<BR>
uneasy; I wonder what their game is?<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps Pinkerdoo was behind the political forces<BR>
which moved the Sector capitol from Regnia to Mora,<BR>
mmmm?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Pinkerdoo Design Group (1910 Regina) 1-D25-90?? WOS Non F99 Im<BR>
<BR>
> R&D:          90 (%)<BR>
> Turnover(Cr): Unknown<BR>
> Profit(Cr):   Unknown<BR>
> Areas:        Non (Nonclassifiable)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:00:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
Uhh.... no.. one was 'lost' from the US state department a few weeks ago..<BR>
or, accually, several were 'lost'.. Have not heard much about it since tho..<BR>
<BR>
hey..<BR>
<BR>
who are you?<BR>
<BR>
Eeeeek<thwap><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi, this is tsykoduk. Please disregard any drivel I was posting about the<BR>
United States of America. I was under the influence of to much caffeine.<BR>
Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:19 PM<BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list<BR>
Subject: re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Some real world lapses that suggest possible adventure<BR>
>seeds, bits snipped from<BR>
<BR>
I note that these are lapses by British intelligence.  Do<BR>
other countries' spies keep better track of their laptops,<BR>
or is the UK the only country to admit the losses?<BR>
<BR>
"Ah, come in 007.  This is a ticklish situation.  Do try<BR>
not to leave to many bodies in your wake this time.  The<BR>
problem boils down to this.  We are missing a 'notebook<BR>
computer' -- about which Q will give you details -- that<BR>
was apparently left at Charing Cross Station.  The clerk<BR>
who forgot it on the bench while commuting home from work<BR>
last night will be sacked when she comes in this morning.<BR>
You will follow her and find out who she's working for,<BR>
then report back to us."<BR>
<BR>
oh, sorry, wrong game.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:52:37 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dirtside Traveller<BR>
<BR>
My campaign spent a couple of sessions on the ground,<BR>
a couple years ago.<BR>
<BR>
The group trekked from Regina to Vilis, searching for<BR>
the ever-elusive Secrets of a Long Lost Empire.  They<BR>
found a key to their map but lost their ship to Arkesh <BR>
Spacers.  They finally had to hitchhike their way to<BR>
the target world, and were dumped there and left to rot.<BR>
The world was pre-industrial, a rough land of arid<BR>
waste, harsh seas, and wooded areas thick with <BR>
predators.<BR>
<BR>
The group made their way to the coast, where they<BR>
found an ex-Imperial Navy captain, who had made a <BR>
life for himself by building up a small fleet of<BR>
wooden ships piloted by men and Aslan alike.  The<BR>
group thus started a great search for the exact spot<BR>
of land their Map pointed to... which of course led<BR>
them all over the surface of the world, from cities<BR>
to ruins to towns, seeking out palaces, advisors, <BR>
trade magnates, village elders and witchdoctors,<BR>
ending finally on a forgotten island.  And then the <BR>
spectacular happened.  (The ref waved his hands and<BR>
a very old but amazingly functional matter portal<BR>
shunted them to a world in the Reidain subsector).<BR>
<BR>
But back to the point.  If I and the group were<BR>
otherwise inclined, we could have expanded the<BR>
whole thing to be a ground-based campaign, with<BR>
the characters setting up a petty kingdom in a<BR>
grab for global power.  Who knows how that would<BR>
have turned out... they could have split into <BR>
factions and eventually run great campaigns against<BR>
each other.  Or they could have taken to the high<BR>
seas, building up massive trade empires or pirate<BR>
operations.  Or they could have put the world "on<BR>
the map" so to speak, and made it a lucrative place<BR>
to stop at.<BR>
<BR>
...or they could have bought the rights to the <BR>
island and started a small, very quiet, very<BR>
profitable business.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:04:48 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: HELP<BR>
<BR>
Here is the URL for the order form<BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller/T401-01.html<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********<BR>
<BR>
On 6/5/2000 at 6:35 PM Thomas Vickers wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, I hate to admit it, but I can't find the URL for ordering the<BR>
>Reprints.<BR>
>Anyone want to help me out?<BR>
><BR>
>TV<BR>
>------------------------<BR>
>"Never apologize, never explain."<BR>
>                           Hunter S. Thompson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:14:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: MilBots<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCF11.81F76110<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
Pinkerdoo is proud to announce the Imperium wide release of the Mark 15b<BR>
Squad Support Weapon. This fully autonomous fire support platform has had<BR>
Rave Reviews in the extra-Imperial market. It's main gun can easily<BR>
penetrate 30 inches of hard steel at a range of 5,100m, with unverifiable<BR>
results of up to twice that!. It's Antipersonnel weapon can defeat all<BR>
personal armors (armor up to  3 inches of hard steel at a range of 900m). It<BR>
has armor equal to to 7.5 inches of hard steel, can travel at up to 2,700<BR>
mph on it's internal gravatics with 0 to 60 accelerations in the sub 3<BR>
second range. Internal batteries allow an on station period of over 30<BR>
hours. Triple redundancy and fiber optics in the logic center allow this SAW<BR>
to out perform most LAV's. As Built prices are in the 2.9 mega credit range,<BR>
with retail prices in the Extra-Imperial market topping 3.5 mega credits.<BR>
Have your purchasing agent contact Pinkerdoo (pinkerdoo@home.com) for<BR>
licensing details!<BR>
<BR>
Remember - Odd Designs for Odd Jobs!<BR>
Pinkerdoo Design Group<BR>
http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCF11.81F76110<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =<BR>
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3017.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D571280100-06062000>Pinkerdoo is proud=20<BR>
to announce the Imperium wide release of the Mark 15b Squad Support =<BR>
Weapon. This=20<BR>
fully autonomous fire support platform has had Rave Reviews in the=20<BR>
extra-Imperial market. It's main gun can easily penetrate 30 inches of =<BR>
hard=20<BR>
steel at a range of 5,100m, with unverifiable results of up to twice =<BR>
that!. It's=20<BR>
Antipersonnel weapon can defeat all personal armors (armor up to  3 =<BR>
inches of=20<BR>
hard steel at a range of 900m). It has armor equal to to 7.5 inches of =<BR>
hard=20<BR>
steel, can travel at up to 2,700 mph on it's internal gravatics with 0 =<BR>
to 60=20<BR>
accelerations in the sub&nbsp;3 second range. Internal batteries allow =<BR>
an on=20<BR>
station period of over 30 hours. Triple redundancy and fiber optics in =<BR>
the logic=20<BR>
center allow this SAW to out perform most LAV's. As Built prices are in =<BR>
the 2.9=20<BR>
mega credit range, with retail prices in the Extra-Imperial market =<BR>
topping 3.5=20<BR>
mega credits. Have your purchasing agent contact Pinkerdoo (<A=20<BR>
href=3D"mailto:pinkerdoo@home.com">pinkerdoo@home.com) for licensing =<BR>
<BR>
details!</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D571280100-06062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D571280100-06062000>Remember - Odd=20<BR>
Designs for Odd Jobs!</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D571280100-06062000>Pinkerdoo Design=20<BR>
Group</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D571280100-06062000><A=20<BR>
href=3D"http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo">http://members.home.net/pinker=<BR>
doo</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCF11.81F76110--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:13:36 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, wait...that's right...the end of WW2 gave us bombs that could<BR>
>eradicate an entire industrial center with one shot.  Now the<BR>
>equation changes again.<<BR>
><BR>
>And a new method of delivering them, or will that be ignored too?<BR>
>Or does this mean you want to take a Pro position supporting MAD now? Yes,<BR>
>mutual genocide makes so much sense as a valid strategic plan not to<BR>
mention<BR>
>moral position.<BR>
><BR>
I just can't resist moving into this morass.<BR>
Quite apart from the moral position of MAD realistically SAC bombers never<BR>
made sense. The so called Strategic Triad was never more than a political<BR>
excuse to keep pouring money into the Air Force. Both land based and<BR>
aircraft delivery systems were never really viable. Land based were<BR>
vulnerable to first strike and by the time aircraft based assets came into<BR>
play their targets would have already been taken out by missiles from<BR>
SSBN's.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:18:53 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 7:30:am<BR>
Subject: RE: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I just heard on NPR that the FBI is still looking for the 'Average Bank<BR>
> Robber'.  Apparently, he's just so average that they haven't been able to<BR>
> get a good description.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I recall as a teenager, an issue of one of those pulp-comics (Tales from the<BR>
Crypt, Horror, etc.) had a story of just such a man that had mad a deal with<BR>
whomever/whatever to be so average that he could rob banks and the like and<BR>
no-one could ever describe him to the police... of course, it had it's down<BR>
side...<BR>
<BR>
Wonder if it's him?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:18:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
>[1] Such a corporation, a trade Federation if you will,<BR>
>might well send its robotic army out to conquer a small out<BR>
>of the way planet. Such robots might well conquer the planet<BR>
>unless the planets young Marquis received the aid of<BR>
>powerful warriors with psionic powers....<BR>
<BR>
Good Comment.  :)  <BR>
Sounds like an adventure seed here--even heroic movielike.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 03:46:31 +0200<BR>
From: "anunnaki" <anunnaki@wanadoo.fr><BR>
Subject: MT/T4 help needed<BR>
<BR>
Hello fellow Travellers,<BR>
<BR>
 - Could any of you gentlemen point me to any web resource pointing out<BR>
erratas for MegaTraveller and the T4 line? (at least the main book/box)<BR>
<BR>
I wanna make sure I have the "latest" version of the rules, so to speak.<BR>
<BR>
 - Also, where can I find a discussion of what was considered broken about<BR>
MT and T4? (rules-wise)<BR>
I'm planning on running campaigns using those systems, and I'd like to work<BR>
out the remaining bugs (I've never used those rules to play Traveller<BR>
before, just toyed with the systems,  hence my ignorance).<BR>
<BR>
 - One technical question for MT grognards: How do you resolve damage to<BR>
starships from heavy weapons? How can this be used jointly with the ship<BR>
combat rules? I'm thinking of a ship damaged in space combat, landing on a<BR>
world, and coming under fire from grav tanks later on: How can I translate<BR>
ship combat damage to unit-scale damage and vice versa?<BR>
<BR>
 - The MT screen from DGP says that vehicle hit points are X10 when used<BR>
with the regular combat rules. Is that official? It seems to avoid the "22LR<BR>
shooting down a jet fighter" syndrome, but also means that a grenade<BR>
probably won't scratch the paint of a ground car...what gives ? :)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks !!<BR>
<BR>
Anunnaki<BR>
IMTU:<BR>
tc tm+ tne- t4 tg+ tt to+ ru ge+ 3i+(++) c+ jt au+ st ls+ pi (-) ta (-) he+<BR>
kk hi+ as++ va- dr++ so (+) zh+ vi da+ sy+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:55:49 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Fighters and Missiles (Equation Corrections)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 10:39 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Fighters and Missiles (Equation Corrections)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Right Equations:<BR>
> > distance = 0.5 X acceleration X time squared<BR>
> > velocity = acceleration X time<BR>
> > <BR>
> > The equations I had used were:<BR>
> > distance = acceleration X time squared<BR>
> > velocity = 0.5 X  acceleration X time<BR>
> <BR>
> Just to be picky:<BR>
> <BR>
> velocity = velocity(initial) + acceleration X time<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
<BR>
And even pickier:<BR>
<BR>
distance = (velocity(initial) X time) + (0.5 X acceleration X time squared)<BR>
<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 03:37:51 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots and AI<BR>
<BR>
Moin Chris Seamans,<BR>
<BR>
> In the future, computers will have capabilities which computers today don't<BR>
> have. Unless there is a really big breakthrough in theory and practice,<BR>
> which is probably possible but which isn't right on the horizon, computers<BR>
> will continue to work like computers.<BR>
<BR>
  I had an argument with Weizenbaum in 1993 - I've implemented 10k neurons<BR>
  in i86 assemble to run 20 times per second on a 4DX33. 10k neurons at<BR>
  a maximum rate of fire of 20 times per second is comparable to an 'ant'<BR>
<BR>
  The question now was if massive neurons are sufficient to implement<BR>
  real intelligence.  Human as about 10 terra neurons, so Moors law would<BR>
  mean that we would be able to implement a human sized neural network<BR>
  within the next 20 years.<BR>
<BR>
  But sheer number of neurons are not enough - our neurons are not grouped<BR>
  at random, nor are those of an ant. Any network larger than a 16x16x5<BR>
  Kohonen network, becomes difficult to train. The larger the network,<BR>
  the longer the training. Our extremly large network is not only trained<BR>
  by environment (learning) but also initialised with predefined starting<BR>
  values based on million years of evolution.<BR>
<BR>
  My experiment showed (me) that this 10k neuronal network was impossible<BR>
  to train for even the easiest things. So as long as we wont invest massive<BR>
  sums into a network implementing an artificial environment, to play<BR>
  evolution to the AI network, real AI wont come even with larger computers.<BR>
<BR>
  Back to the MiliBots thingy:<BR>
<BR>
  A 16x16x5 Kohonen network is sufficent to identify moving objects.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: what about the following advertisment :<BR>
<BR>
  Dover Gabe MiliBots:<BR>
	  Our artifical intelligence is able to beat natural stupidity.<BR>
	  Do not wast your intelligent assets on stupid courier jobs.<BR>
  Ask Dover Gabe now for price: call 0800-dovergabe<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:16:28 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Skyport Authority<BR>
<BR>
At 07:34 AM 6/5/00 +0100, Dom wrote:<BR>
>Can anyone confirm who wrote the original article on the SPA and the JTAS <BR>
>number in the old paper editions?<BR>
><BR>
>ISTR that it was John Ford, but I can't remember or find my copy...<BR>
<BR>
It was John Ford in JTAS 19.<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:16:19 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 4:39 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<Snipped><BR>
<BR>
>>I don't think they should or could "replace" the organic soldier but<BR>
>augment<BR>
>>them.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>I said that you were limiting the usefulness of the robots because you were<BR>
>setting up conditions which must be met by robotic soldiers in order for<BR>
>them to win against human soldiers. This means that they are less useful<BR>
>than human soldiers. Specifically, you were saying that they would require<BR>
a<BR>
>quantifiable and overwhelming superiority over creative defenders. This has<BR>
>nothing to do with the intelligence of the robots.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Actually that sounds more like your argument than mine.<BR>
><BR>
>>There have been lots of movies about the renegade<BR>
>>newly sentient cyborg or robot and we can all agree I think that the<BR>
>>potential for a free thinking warbot can have some serious ramifications.<BR>
><BR>
>Ach! That's not what I've been saying at all. Not too long ago, I was on a<BR>
>webpage and I read something to the effect of, "If there was a sci-fi movie<BR>
>made about industrial robots before industrial robots were actually made,<BR>
>the robot would go insane. The robot would cause property damage, probably<BR>
>take a few lives, and then everybody in the movie would agree in the<BR>
>sensibility of human workers." I laughed, because it's true.<BR>
<BR>
I did not make any inference that you made that claim, I stated it as an<BR>
obvious<BR>
fact because it would be problematic, and the movies are just a simple, if<BR>
not<BR>
bad example, of how people are concerned about such things.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm not basing my position on movies which show us the dark possibilities<BR>
of<BR>
>allowing computers to think. I'm basing my position on the notion that it's<BR>
>impossible to create a versatile robot without creative artificial<BR>
>intelligence.<BR>
><BR>
>>My whole point was that the OTU disregarded Moore's Law and the tech<BR>
>>advances of computing and AI.<BR>
><BR>
>Then it would have been helpful if you had said that in the first place. :)<BR>
><BR>
>Still, there's is no evidence that the people who created the official<BR>
>Traveller universe even knew about Moore's Law, which would be necessary<BR>
for<BR>
>them to disregard it. Please keep in mind that Moore's law isn't a law in<BR>
>the sense that the laws of physics are laws. The boom that Moore's Law<BR>
>predicted has run into problems in the past. Moore's original "law" said<BR>
>that there would be a yearly increase, Moore's revised "law" says that the<BR>
>increase comes every eighteen months. If my understanding of the future of<BR>
>Moore's Law is correct a physical wall will be hit sometime in about the<BR>
>first quarter of the 21st century.<BR>
<BR>
This is my point exactly.  Excuse me for not being specific enough in my<BR>
terminology.  They did not give speed of rising computer tech level enough<BR>
credence. It amounts to the same thing.  Actually Moore predicted it would<BR>
double about every 2 years and then in the last 10 years has revised it to<BR>
more like 18 months.  Its getting faster not slower. To answer both you and<BR>
Leonard Erickson, if you read the article I sent to the TML about the last<BR>
issue of the MIT Tech Review it talks about the "wall" that Moore's Law is<BR>
facing in great detail.  The techies are aware of the wall that is ahead and<BR>
are working hard to develop alternative technologies(molecular, quantum,<BR>
biological and DNA specifically).<BR>
><BR>
>That doesn't mean that better processors won't be built, but it does mean<BR>
>that some new way to manufacture them must be discovered.<BR>
><BR>
>>I think that computers and robots in the<BR>
>>future will have much greater abilities and will be very simple to use.<BR>
><BR>
>There is no doubt that computers and robots in the future will have much<BR>
>greater abilities and that they will be very simple to use. That does not<BR>
>mean that computers and robots in the future will be able to be as<BR>
versatile<BR>
>as human soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This is the root of our disagreement.  IMHO robots don't need to be *equal*<BR>
with sentient soldiers to be effective.  I think they have every chance of<BR>
being good combatants without being sentient.  I don't think they will ever<BR>
be as good as sentient soldiers, but as someone else posted earlier they are<BR>
certainly more expendable to most human civilizations(not all perhaps),<BR>
especially in an all out war.  I also think Mercenary units would prefer to<BR>
use them than put themselves into the really hairy situations.  My argument<BR>
is that robots will be effective, perhaps 60 to 70 percent effective in<BR>
comparison to a human soldier, but perhaps many units will choose to opt for<BR>
less efficiency and a lower body count in certain scenarios. I don't<BR>
advocate an all robot force as a matter of course but there might be times<BR>
when it would be warranted; like recon and perhaps, as someone else<BR>
suggested, as a quick strike force of robotic mini-jets.  Perhaps were are<BR>
stuck in the paradigm of making them too much like a human soldier. They are<BR>
certainly no panacea for every battle and every contingency but I think they<BR>
have their place.<BR>
><BR>
>Graphical User Interfaces, for example, make computers much easier to use.<BR>
>Graphical User Interfaces do not make a computer imaginative. Perhaps in<BR>
>twenty years we'll all have wearable computers which are obnoxiously easy<BR>
to<BR>
>use. This doesn't mean that the wearable computers will suddenly become<BR>
>creative. Perhaps these wearable computers may contain expert systems which<BR>
>are simple to interface with. This doesn't mean that they will suddenly<BR>
have<BR>
>resourcefulness.<BR>
<BR>
I think we agree that resourcefulness and sentience go hand in hand. No<BR>
argument from me there.  I just don't disregard robots because they can't be<BR>
creative.<BR>
><BR>
>In the future, computers will have capabilities which computers today don't<BR>
>have. Unless there is a really big breakthrough in theory and practice,<BR>
>which is probably possible but which isn't right on the horizon, computers<BR>
>will continue to work like computers.<BR>
<BR>
Again see the articles on the future of computers in the MIT Tech Review as<BR>
it might be closer than you think. www.techreview.com<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>We are still taking baby steps with regard to AI.  I am not sure if you<BR>
>want to<BR>
>>incorporate a positronic brain into your TU, but the idea is that it will<BR>
>be<BR>
>>a very close approximation of the sentient mind, at least the human mind.<BR>
><BR>
>Positronic brains aren't real, and it is unlikely that they ever will be<BR>
>real. At the time that Asimov coined the terms, positrons were "new". He<BR>
>didn't use the term "positronic" because positrons would allow a very close<BR>
>approximation of the sentient mind. He used the term "positronic" because<BR>
it<BR>
>sounded sufficiently futuristic. Any time you see positronic brains appear<BR>
>in other works of sci-fi it's not because positronic brains are plausible,<BR>
>but because other sci-fi authors are paying homage to Isaac Asimov.<BR>
<BR>
As I was doing(paying homage).  It was a useful reference for a computer<BR>
brain, call it what you want.  I am not this is the answer either and it is<BR>
certainly not canon.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2556<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (rly-yg03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.3]) by air-yg03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:24:03 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:23:20 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA18746;<BR>
	Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:22:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:21:52 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA18704<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:21:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:21:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006060221.WAA18704@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2556<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2557</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/5/00 9:42:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2557<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
You say heavy weapon, we say small arm, lets call the whole thing off...<BR>
Re: non-SF Games<BR>
The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
RE: MT/T4 help needed<BR>
Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Meson communicators<BR>
O'Malley class Merchant War Cruiser<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production <BR>
Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 19:24:29 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:19:03 -0700 (PDT), Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
> <BR>
> >Some real world lapses that suggest possible adventure<BR>
> >seeds, bits snipped from<BR>
> <BR>
> I note that these are lapses by British intelligence.  Do<BR>
> other countries' spies keep better track of their laptops,<BR>
> or is the UK the only country to admit the losses?  <BR>
<BR>
Guilty.  Not me, but Canada anyway.  And yes, we do have state secrets :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Borg? Where? I don't se*(#$#..NO CARRIER<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:40:53 -0400<BR>
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: You say heavy weapon, we say small arm, lets call the whole thing off...<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) doth uttered:<BR>
<BR>
> > A 'small arm' as perceived by the common populace is in fact a sidearm, a<BR>
> > pistol, or other small personal weapon.  This could be the terminology<BR>
> > that FS Marketing my have shot for.  If so then no slander is warented and<BR>
> > FS is within their rights of advertising.  Indeed the hull and armour of<BR>
> > the Forklift may well deflect most X-TEK personal weapons fire including<BR>
> > the S/99 "Special" and M/1100 "Millenium" Gauss pistols.  It is not yet<BR>
> > been determined if the "Cricket" class of fusion pistol, hyperdense sabot<BR>
> > pistol, or fusion SMG can penetrate the FS Forklift but tests are underway<BR>
> > and are likely to reveil positive results.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hate to tell you this, but FS is right and X-Tek is wrong as far as the<BR>
> definition of "small arms" is concerned. It's both a military term<BR>
> *and* a term in International law!<BR>
<BR>
I beleive that is what X-TEK Legal was trying to say, and were therefore<BR>
covering the corporate behind so to speak. FNORD! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 01:36:35 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
I remember playing En Garde (pre-Traveller) from which<BR>
I suspect<BR>
the Traveller character generation system was derived.<BR>
Can anyone<BR>
confirm that - I'm just curious.<BR>
<BR>
It also taught me the meaning of the word phyrric.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:08 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >   ObTrav: hey, do you think that a career-based<BR>
char-gen system might<BR>
> > be of use in SF-RPG's?<BR>
:)<BR>
><BR>
> Don't make my type up my Medieval Traveller chargen.<BR>
><BR>
> ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> boo<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 23:15:23 -0400<BR>
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> doth uttered:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Sob.<BR>
> <BR>
> You've made me start to pine for the halcyon days of T4 back in 96/97 <BR>
> when IG was new, and Traveller had wonderful THUDDDs and the <BR>
> flamewars were at least about fighters vs lasers and pirates with <BR>
> logic and fun...<BR>
<BR>
Those were the days, eh?<BR>
<BR>
I remember when this whole corporate entity thing began. Like you said<BR>
it was back in the early days of IG and T4.  I think someone at IG<BR>
needed a design for a recontact scout.  I figured what the heck and sent<BR>
a "letter of intent" full of pomp and circumstance addressed to "His<BR>
Imperial Majesty".  Others got on the bandwagon and soon THUDDD Zero (as<BR>
I like to call it) began.  I didn't win the bid (my design was a bit too<BR>
small for their needs) but it did start a trend on the TML.  Soon the<BR>
ISBA (Imperial Ship Building Association) was born and these fictitious<BR>
companies popped up like mushrooms.  I'm not saying I personally started<BR>
this, it was the gear heads and the many Traveller diehards out there<BR>
who made THUDDD and ISBA and yes, even little Ditzie.<BR>
<BR>
I got involved with so many names in the game and eventually my dream of<BR>
actually having freelance work became a reality.  It was one of the best<BR>
days in my life to see my name in a book.  You will remember that I even<BR>
did some write ups for 101 Religions.  I was having more fun online than<BR>
I was in FTF gaming! That was very satisfying, but...<BR>
<BR>
IG was showing signs of death throes.  Non-payment to authors, sloppy<BR>
editing, you heard the stories here many times, I not bore you with<BR>
details. I can say I was VERY upset with how my work was sloppily pasted<BR>
on a page in Emperor's Vehicles.  Needless to say I was considering<BR>
dropping at least T4 and going back to CT/MT.  Hey I was disillusioned<BR>
after thinking I got my 15 minutes of fame already.<BR>
<BR>
So I slacked off on T4, it shows on my web site!  Then GURPS started<BR>
doing its line. It was a tough gearshift for me to get into the GURPS<BR>
gearhead stuff, but found it quite simple.  I saw how successful this<BR>
was becoming and decided to get back into some freelance work as I did<BR>
with T4.  I may not have the time I had back in 95/96 but dangit I am<BR>
having my fun again! I love seeing Spofulam, X-TEK and Gridlore<BR>
mentioned in the artwork. We have survived and returned!<BR>
<BR>
I always believed that Traveller is all about the spirit of the game. <BR>
Systems come and go, but the spirit of the game lives on in every<BR>
player.  It's up to us to keep that spirit alive.  "Keep the Flame" is<BR>
more than just a Regency slogan to me! :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:22:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: MT/T4 help needed<BR>
<BR>
Use Gurps Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Naaa - I accually ran a Metric Ton of MT back in the day..<BR>
<BR>
Ahem. Anyways, I would recommend getting your grubby little hands on Hard<BR>
Times - that expansion did wonders for the ship to ship/ship building<BR>
system.<BR>
<BR>
As far as T4 - I bought it, but refused to run it. I accually ran a<BR>
TNE -gasp of horror- instead. Best advise at this time is GT - the system is<BR>
what I wanted MT to be, or just run CT using the Striker I combat rules like<BR>
I did b4 MT came out ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of anunnaki<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:47 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: MT/T4 help needed<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hello fellow Travellers,<BR>
<BR>
 - Could any of you gentlemen point me to any web resource pointing out<BR>
erratas for MegaTraveller and the T4 line? (at least the main book/box)<BR>
<BR>
I wanna make sure I have the "latest" version of the rules, so to speak.<BR>
<BR>
 - Also, where can I find a discussion of what was considered broken about<BR>
MT and T4? (rules-wise)<BR>
I'm planning on running campaigns using those systems, and I'd like to work<BR>
out the remaining bugs (I've never used those rules to play Traveller<BR>
before, just toyed with the systems,  hence my ignorance).<BR>
<BR>
 - One technical question for MT grognards: How do you resolve damage to<BR>
starships from heavy weapons? How can this be used jointly with the ship<BR>
combat rules? I'm thinking of a ship damaged in space combat, landing on a<BR>
world, and coming under fire from grav tanks later on: How can I translate<BR>
ship combat damage to unit-scale damage and vice versa?<BR>
<BR>
 - The MT screen from DGP says that vehicle hit points are X10 when used<BR>
with the regular combat rules. Is that official? It seems to avoid the "22LR<BR>
shooting down a jet fighter" syndrome, but also means that a grenade<BR>
probably won't scratch the paint of a ground car...what gives ? :)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks !!<BR>
<BR>
Anunnaki<BR>
IMTU:<BR>
tc tm+ tne- t4 tg+ tt to+ ru ge+ 3i+(++) c+ jt au+ st ls+ pi (-) ta (-) he+<BR>
kk hi+ as++ va- dr++ so (+) zh+ vi da+ sy+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 23:39:46 -0400<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
At 11:15 PM 06/05/2000 -0400, Commander X wrote:<BR>
><SNIP><BR>
>I always believed that Traveller is all about the spirit of the game.<BR>
>Systems come and go, but the spirit of the game lives on in every<BR>
>player.  It's up to us to keep that spirit alive.  "Keep the Flame" is<BR>
>more than just a Regency slogan to me! :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hear, hear!!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:48:11 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
Cmdr X brings up the past<BR>
> > <BR>
> Those were the days, eh?<BR>
> <BR>
> I remember when this whole corporate entity thing began. Like you said<BR>
> it was back in the early days of IG and T4.  I think someone at IG<BR>
> needed a design for a recontact scout.  I figured what the heck and sent<BR>
> a "letter of intent" full of pomp and circumstance addressed to "His<BR>
> Imperial Majesty".  Others got on the bandwagon and soon THUDDD Zero (as<BR>
> I like to call it) began.  I didn't win the bid (my design was a bit too<BR>
> small for their needs) but it did start a trend on the TML.  Soon the<BR>
> ISBA (Imperial Ship Building Association) was born and these fictitious<BR>
> companies popped up like mushrooms.  I'm not saying I personally started<BR>
> this, it was the gear heads and the many Traveller diehards out there<BR>
> who made THUDDD and ISBA and yes, even little Ditzie.<BR>
<BR>
Yes the ISBA days  ah CmdrX remember our dreams of creating <BR>
the ISBA to give ships and companies more background snd how it <BR>
just faded away.<BR>
<BR>
I never got my 15 mins of fame though..Hmm well the future holds <BR>
many things.  Godds has it been 4 years already.   <BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:54:50 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
Here Here!<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 10:16 PM<BR>
Subject: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> doth uttered:<BR>
><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sob.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> You've made me start to pine for the halcyon days of T4 back in 96/97 <BR>
>> when IG was new, and Traveller had wonderful THUDDDs and the <BR>
>> flamewars were at least about fighters vs lasers and pirates with <BR>
>> logic and fun...<BR>
><BR>
>Those were the days, eh?<BR>
><BR>
>I remember when this whole corporate entity thing began. Like you said<BR>
>it was back in the early days of IG and T4.  I think someone at IG<BR>
>needed a design for a recontact scout.  I figured what the heck and sent<BR>
>a "letter of intent" full of pomp and circumstance addressed to "His<BR>
>Imperial Majesty".  Others got on the bandwagon and soon THUDDD Zero (as<BR>
>I like to call it) began.  I didn't win the bid (my design was a bit too<BR>
>small for their needs) but it did start a trend on the TML.  Soon the<BR>
>ISBA (Imperial Ship Building Association) was born and these fictitious<BR>
>companies popped up like mushrooms.  I'm not saying I personally started<BR>
>this, it was the gear heads and the many Traveller diehards out there<BR>
>who made THUDDD and ISBA and yes, even little Ditzie.<BR>
><BR>
>I got involved with so many names in the game and eventually my dream of<BR>
>actually having freelance work became a reality.  It was one of the best<BR>
>days in my life to see my name in a book.  You will remember that I even<BR>
>did some write ups for 101 Religions.  I was having more fun online than<BR>
>I was in FTF gaming! That was very satisfying, but...<BR>
><BR>
>IG was showing signs of death throes.  Non-payment to authors, sloppy<BR>
>editing, you heard the stories here many times, I not bore you with<BR>
>details. I can say I was VERY upset with how my work was sloppily pasted<BR>
>on a page in Emperor's Vehicles.  Needless to say I was considering<BR>
>dropping at least T4 and going back to CT/MT.  Hey I was disillusioned<BR>
>after thinking I got my 15 minutes of fame already.<BR>
><BR>
>So I slacked off on T4, it shows on my web site!  Then GURPS started<BR>
>doing its line. It was a tough gearshift for me to get into the GURPS<BR>
>gearhead stuff, but found it quite simple.  I saw how successful this<BR>
>was becoming and decided to get back into some freelance work as I did<BR>
>with T4.  I may not have the time I had back in 95/96 but dangit I am<BR>
>having my fun again! I love seeing Spofulam, X-TEK and Gridlore<BR>
>mentioned in the artwork. We have survived and returned!<BR>
><BR>
>I always believed that Traveller is all about the spirit of the game. <BR>
>Systems come and go, but the spirit of the game lives on in every<BR>
>player.  It's up to us to keep that spirit alive.  "Keep the Flame" is<BR>
>more than just a Regency slogan to me! :)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 23:07:17 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Another GT Quibble<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:41:26 +0100, SD Mooney<BR>
<dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 23:02 -0400 4/6/00, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>>Another reason why we decided on having one of the European STL<BR>
>>expeditions go to Alpha Centauri.  It explained not only the odd choice<BR>
>>of target for the first jump expedition, but also the fact that Alpha Centauri<BR>
>>was a "world" in the Imperium game as early as ISW-1.<BR>
><BR>
>Pre-ISW1 ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>I'm looking forward to 'Rim Of Fire', and no, I'm not thinking about <BR>
>Curry or Chilli ;-)<BR>
<BR>
What about Johnny Cash and Wall of Voodoo?<BR>
<BR>
Oh, you said '*Rim* of Fire' not '*Ring* of Fire'!   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:08:39 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
...<BR>
>With the corollaries being;<BR>
>1. Kuwait wasn't liberated until ground troops went in.<BR>
>2. Hussein is still in power as Baghdad was never occupied.<BR>
>So much for the success of strategic bombing.<BR>
<BR>
  But #1 was the expected military course, and would only have been<BR>
avoidable if a political alternative intervened. #2 was never really<BR>
on the menu, as it would constitute a strategic loss for the US  :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:09:29 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Meson communicators<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
...<BR>
>>Meson communicators are big, expensive power-hogs.  Your battlebots are now<BR>
>>becoming *very* attractive targets. Given an equal budget I can afford to<BR>
>>field even more troops, each armed with a light anti-armor weapon.<BR>
>- - --<BR>
><BR>
>This of course discounts the factor that the society might consider<BR>
>intelligent life more valuable than the mere cost of how many credits it<BR>
>takes to field and train a soldier.<BR>
<BR>
  Under CT rules (Striker, and yes, CT _does_ rule :> ) your smallest<BR>
unit (TL: F) is 500 kg, 500L, and Cr 1,000,000. Your mil-bot is now an <BR>
OGRE Mk. I or thereabouts...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:20:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: O'Malley class Merchant War Cruiser<BR>
<BR>
OK, while I'm on this posting spree<BR>
<BR>
Heres my version of a modular clipper type ship<BR>
but on a much bigger scale<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller Ship Data Sheet:<BR>
<BR>
Class Name: OMalley<BR>
Type: Merchant Cruiser<BR>
<BR>
TL: 12<BR>
Tonnage: 30,000 USL<BR>
Cost: 8,251.245 MCR<BR>
Mass: 144,458 Tons<BR>
DR: 1,072 w/Heavy Compartmentalization<BR>
Hit Points: 699,000<BR>
Crew: 183<BR>
<BR>
Engineering:<BR>
Jump: 4 w/Fuel for Jump 1 normally carried<BR>
Maneuver: 2.55<BR>
<BR>
Offensive Systems:<BR>
100 Ton Missile Bay<BR>
4 50 Ton PAW Bays<BR>
60 Triple Beam Lasers<BR>
10 ton Capacitor Bank<BR>
<BR>
Defensive Systems:<BR>
20 Quadpulse PD Laser Clusters<BR>
20 Triple Sandcasters<BR>
Nuclear Damper[20 Mile]<BR>
Basic EMM<BR>
Basic Stealth<BR>
EW Module<BR>
<BR>
Sensors:<BR>
Active: AESA/300<BR>
Passive: PESA/300<BR>
<BR>
Small Craft:<BR>
General Purpose Lighter<BR>
Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
Other Features:<BR>
Hardened Command Bridge<BR>
Hardened Basic Bridge<BR>
Advanced Computer System<BR>
Enhanced Communications<BR>
Enhanced Sensors<BR>
2 Labs<BR>
Backup Engineering Module<BR>
100 Staterooms<BR>
2 Military Sick Bays<BR>
2 Logistics Modules<BR>
20,000 tons Cargo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
NOTES:<BR>
Merchant War Cruiser design followup. Instead of <BR>
weapons bay modules, these are fitted with hard <BR>
mounted bays. The cargo hold is divided into 20 <BR>
1,000 ton bays<BR>
Which can be reconfigured to other sizes. The <BR>
huge drive through cargo bays have enabled them <BR>
to transport huge cargoes that wouldn't fit <BR>
easily in other ships wtihout transporting in <BR>
several pieces. Her main cargo deck can be <BR>
entered from the front or back of the ship, and <BR>
has a total length of 115 meters. <BR>
<BR>
Design NOTES:<BR>
Built on a long boxy frame looking a lot like an <BR>
arrow if viewed from the type, although the <BR>
bridge portion has a blunted nose. Extra Fuel is <BR>
carried in dismountable tanks in the cargo hold <BR>
if needed. Reasonably well armed and defended, <BR>
these ships can hold their own against most <BR>
smaller escorts and the usual pirate and <BR>
commerce raider vessels. These ships have been <BR>
used as fleet tankers during wartime, as their <BR>
immense cargo hold can easily hold fuel <BR>
bladders. These ships have also been hired out <BR>
to serve as colony ships <BR>
And mining base stations. <BR>
<BR>
Cargo Modules:<BR>
3,000 ton Fuel Bladder: 25tons, 250 tons mass, <BR>
10 MCR.<BR>
Note: ship limited to 1.5g acceleration while <BR>
tanks are full.<BR>
<BR>
Fuel Refinery Module: capable of processing <BR>
1,000 tons of fuel<BR>
Per hour. 125 tons, 137.5 tons mass, 106.25 MCR.<BR>
<BR>
Barracks Module: 40 Barracks Modules, 10 <BR>
Staterooms, Theatre<BR>
2 military sick bays. Quarters for 500 troops. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ships in Class:<BR>
<BR>
MC-1500 Class<BR>
OMalley<BR>
Vagabond<BR>
Wayfarer<BR>
Troubadour<BR>
Wayfaring Stranger<BR>
Star Rover<BR>
Solar Sailor<BR>
Ramblin Rover<BR>
Viking Queen<BR>
Golden Vanity<BR>
Starry Road<BR>
Marrakesh Express<BR>
City of New Orleans<BR>
Orient Express<BR>
Tradewinds<BR>
Delta Queen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:26:16 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>excuse to keep pouring money into the Air Force. Both land based and<BR>
>aircraft delivery systems were never really viable. Land based were<BR>
>vulnerable to first strike and by the time aircraft based assets came into<BR>
>play their targets would have already been taken out by missiles from SSBN's.<BR>
<BR>
  Oh, and the flyers were going to have the budget off-loaded to an<BR>
inflexible, over-specialized naval system? And kill most of their<BR>
career prospects into the bargain? :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:27:54 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production <BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production <BR>
...<BR>
>>Pack-rat-ism? Seriously, even though the AHL's possibly don't have<BR>
>even war-time missions anymore, and their maintenance is unjustifiably<BR>
>high w/o re-building, it's still cheap enough to keep them around just<BR>
>in case. <BR>
...<BR>
>(Just look at my apt. some time. :-P) I was pointing out that the ships just<BR>
>can't cut it on the front lines. And while they may indeed be yanked out<BR>
>every now and then just to have something to put in the way, if they survive<BR>
>it is back to storage for the clunkers.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, the AHL's do some things pretty well - they can do all sorts of<BR>
peace-time missions perfectly well, plus both commerce-raiding, deep<BR>
penetration _and_ counters to these in war-time. And a TL F CA _can't_<BR>
do these as well _if J5 capability is mission critical_! But yes, a TL F<BR>
hull would be _much_ more efficient & effective - presumably the 3I did<BR>
not choose to invest in them during the limited time-frame from recovering<BR>
from the SRW to the 4FW. Post-5FW entirely different hulls are chosen...<BR>
<BR>
>Likewise, keeping a bunch of junky or obsolete) aircraft around is fine<BR>
>(there are still F-4s flying) but actually using them except in emergencies<BR>
>is ridiculous and using them on ridiculous missions is worse.<BR>
<BR>
  Yes, but TL E units are capable of many things in the IN, although in the<BR>
long-term they're not desirable as on-going full-strength assets. So 3I IN<BR>
policy does seem to conform, at least within the (game) "realities" stated<BR>
in the rules.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 23:27:56 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Races in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:59:08 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> It reminds me of something Kojak said, to the effect of,<BR>
>> "yeah, great, get the eyewitness statements.  You know how<BR>
>> eyewitness statements go -- you end up looking for a fat,<BR>
>> skinny red-headed bald guy, with one eye blue, one eye<BR>
>> brown, and the third eye gray."<BR>
><BR>
>The suspect description from hell:<BR>
><BR>
>Average height, average weight, brown hair, wearing jeans, sneakers and<BR>
>a T-shirt. <BR>
<BR>
<Looking in mirror><BR>
<BR>
Uh oh!<BR>
<BR>
</Looking in mirror><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:40:59 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
>From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
...<BR>
>A fellow Traveller pointed out to me that the AHL ships<BR>
>show signs of being designed using High Guard version 1,<BR>
>under which it must have kicked butt.  The differences <BR>
>between V1 and V2 of High Guard apparently were enough <BR>
>to do in the AHL.<BR>
<BR>
  It still wouldn't be a cost-effective ship for fleet actions;<BR>
the problem under HG2 is that the payload % is rapidly dropping <BR>
towards zero courtesy of the %=Jn(11)+1 issue, and then the x2<BR>
power plant modifier really rips it to heck...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:41:04 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:52:00 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
...<BR>
>Actually, it's likely that you *don't* want to use grav technology for<BR>
>anything smaller than a grav tank, simply because CG units have a<BR>
>sensor signature that's as bad as jet engines or rockets on an IR<BR>
>sensor. Probably *worse*.<BR>
<BR>
  Note that in CT there is no such signature. So all of you heretics<BR>
(MT, TNE, T4, GT - did I miss any?) can just forget about it :><BR>
<BR>
>In other words, a big, fat "shoot me" sign. This tends to annoy the<BR>
>troops that have to work with them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
  Wouldn't this apply to nGMP's, too?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:39:03 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<snipped a bunch of stuff which isn't really relevant anymore><BR>
<BR>
>This is my point exactly.  Excuse me for not being specific enough in my<BR>
>terminology.  They did not give speed of rising computer tech level enough<BR>
>credence. It amounts to the same thing.<BR>
<BR>
In that case, what I said was not exactly your point. What I said was that<BR>
Moore's law was not a law, but an observation and if the physical limits of<BR>
the current technology are reached and no new breakthrough materializes then<BR>
Moore's law really won't factor into the Traveller universe. So, it wouldn't<BR>
matter whether they ignored Moore's law or paid attention to it.<BR>
<BR>
All I've been saying is that throwing more processing power at the task of<BR>
trying to make a computer think like a human is not necessarily the way to<BR>
make a computer think like a human. That's all.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually Moore predicted it would double about every 2 years and then in<BR>
the<BR>
>last 10 years has revised it to more like 18 months.  Its getting faster<BR>
not<BR>
>slower.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, no, he didn't.<BR>
<BR>
From a "Scientific American" interview with Gordon Moore himself (at<BR>
http://www.sciam.com/interview/moore/092297moore2.html ):<BR>
<BR>
"I happened to plot the increase in complexity and saw that it was doubling<BR>
every year..."<BR>
<BR>
and later in the interview,<BR>
<BR>
"At the end of that time I dug back into it and what had happened, and in<BR>
1975 I gave a paper updating the thing, and there I tried to be more precise<BR>
as to what had contributed to the progress we had made. I predicted we were<BR>
going to change from doubling every year to doubling every two years, which<BR>
is kind of where we are now. I never said 18 months, in spite of that being<BR>
quoted in literature quite often!"<BR>
<BR>
So, although I got the number of years he changed it to wrong, I got the<BR>
direction right. So, it would appear it's getting slower, not faster.<BR>
Incidentally, the article on "Moore's Law" in the MIT Tech Review which you<BR>
pointed me to says the same exact thing.<BR>
<BR>
>To answer both you and Leonard Erickson, if you read the article I sent to<BR>
the<BR>
>TML about the last issue of the MIT Tech Review it talks about the "wall"<BR>
that<BR>
>Moore's Law is facing in great detail.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. This "wall" is not new to me, and judging from Leonard's posting<BR>
history, that "wall" isn't new to him either. This is something that people<BR>
have known about for quite some time.<BR>
<BR>
>The techies are aware of the wall that is ahead and are working hard to<BR>
develop<BR>
>alternative technologies(molecular, quantum, biological and DNA<BR>
specifically).<BR>
<BR>
Great for them. I hope that they succeed. At the moment, as every single<BR>
article in the MIT tech review cautions, all of this research is in the very<BR>
early stages and practical uses may not pan out. Even if some of these<BR>
projects do pan out, they may not be useful for replacing traditional<BR>
computers but may have highly specific functions which they are good at.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>suggested, as a quick strike force of robotic mini-jets.  Perhaps were are<BR>
>stuck in the paradigm of making them too much like a human soldier. They<BR>
are<BR>
>certainly no panacea for every battle and every contingency but I think<BR>
they<BR>
>have their place.<BR>
<BR>
As I've been saying over the last two days I believe that robots will have a<BR>
place on the battlefield.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>I think we agree that resourcefulness and sentience go hand in hand. No<BR>
>argument from me there.  I just don't disregard robots because they can't<BR>
be<BR>
>creative.<BR>
<BR>
Nor do I.<BR>
<BR>
>>In the future, computers will have capabilities which computers today<BR>
don't<BR>
>>have. Unless there is a really big breakthrough in theory and practice,<BR>
>>which is probably possible but which isn't right on the horizon, computers<BR>
>>will continue to work like computers.<BR>
><BR>
>Again see the articles on the future of computers in the MIT Tech Review as<BR>
>it might be closer than you think. www.techreview.com<BR>
<BR>
Okay. I took a look, and read the articles. The theoretical molecular<BR>
computers will, if they pan out, work just like computers. They will be<BR>
quite small, and they will be constructed differently, but as far as I can<BR>
tell they will be fundamentally the same. The biological computers mentioned<BR>
in another article seem to work on the same principles as computers. Again,<BR>
they will be quite small and constructed differently, but as far as I can<BR>
tell they will work the same way. The DNA computers are a little crazier,<BR>
but if I understand the article it seems like the most useful experiment<BR>
that one team is planning boils down to binary addition.<BR>
<BR>
Quantum computers sure look interesting. The qubit is pretty interesting. If<BR>
quantum computers turn out to be practical and useful then that might be the<BR>
big change I was talking about. However, quantum computers are still in the<BR>
embryonic stage. Whether they will pan out or not is certainly still up in<BR>
the air. I was skeptical about quantum computers a few months back, and I<BR>
will continue to be skeptical until something a little more convincing<BR>
materializes.<BR>
<BR>
So, I stand by what I said, "Unless there is a big breakthrough in theory<BR>
and practice, which is probably possible but which isn't on the horizon,<BR>
computers will continue to work like computers."<BR>
<BR>
>As I was doing(paying homage).  It was a useful reference for a computer<BR>
>brain, call it what you want.  I am not this is the answer either and it is<BR>
>certainly not canon.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, if you think it's a useful reference, more power to you.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2557<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (rly-ye02.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.199]) by air-ye01.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:42:34 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:42:01 2000<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA24387;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:41:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:40:59 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id AAA24347<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:40:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:40:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006060440.AAA24347@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2557<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2558</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 6:16:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2558<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: Strategic economics (AIR)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
OT: Bragging<BR>
Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
Moore's Law (was Milibots)<BR>
Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
Neural Nets (was Milibots)<BR>
Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:57:46 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>Deposing Saddam Hussein was never a goal. Much as we dislike him, have<BR>
*you* taken a look at the likely *replacements*? Keep in mind that<BR>
*occupying* Iraq is out of the question politically. The Arab world<BR>
wouldn't stand for it.<<BR>
<BR>
Sure it was, it was just retconned away when it didn't happen.<BR>
As for likely replacements, they could be have been dealt with similarly.<BR>
And as for politically... well that is another rant but essentially if we<BR>
are good enough to save them from Saddam we are by damn good enough to<BR>
decide who replaces him and if they don't like it next time they can deal<BR>
with him themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>But #1 was the expected military course, and would only have been<BR>
avoidable if a political alternative intervened. #2 was never really<BR>
on the menu, as it would constitute a strategic loss for the US  :)<<BR>
<BR>
#1 is what I heard all the analysts arguing about during the Kosovo bombing<BR>
campaign so I think the strategic bombing proponents are trying to retcon to<BR>
cover themselves yet again on that.<BR>
As for #2, I disagree. But that's another totally OT subject as well.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, and the flyers were going to have the budget off-loaded to an<BR>
inflexible, over-specialized naval system? And kill most of their<BR>
career prospects into the bargain? :><<BR>
<BR>
Bah, let them go be fighter jocks like they all wanted to be in the first<BR>
place. Or transport crews if they were planning on a civilian aeronautics<BR>
career. As for the Air Force Pentagon brass...I won't even try posting a<BR>
clean version for what they can do in public.<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 01:08:04 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone wrote,<BR>
>A fellow Traveller pointed out to me that the AHL ships<BR>
show signs of being designed using High Guard version 1,<BR>
under which it must have kicked butt.  The differences<BR>
between V1 and V2 of High Guard apparently were enough<BR>
to do in the AHL.<<BR>
<BR>
That sounds just like a military reorganization plan where heavy tanks<BR>
become light tanks overnight. (Or close to it.) How realistic can you get!<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>FWIW, the AHL's do some things pretty well - they can do all sorts of<BR>
peace-time missions perfectly well, plus both commerce-raiding, deep<BR>
penetration _and_ counters to these in war-time. And a TL F CA _can't_<BR>
do these as well _if J5 capability is mission critical_! But yes, a TL F<BR>
hull would be _much_ more efficient & effective - presumably the 3I did<BR>
not choose to invest in them during the limited time-frame from recovering<BR>
from the SRW to the 4FW. Post-5FW entirely different hulls are chosen...<<BR>
<BR>
So we can agree on what to do with a ship with a limited war time use and<BR>
highly specialized peacetime uses. Now it just goes back to what to do with<BR>
ships poorly designed from the get go with a lousy strategic plan.<BR>
ObTrav now becomes battle riders. They at least had their strategic<BR>
deployment changed to take into account their tactical failures under the<BR>
old plan<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:17:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
IIRC that there is not one in MT or GT either - that started with the cursed<BR>
TNE and it's insistence that we had to use HELPAR for motive thrust for<BR>
everything, rather then clean, efficient thruster plates. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steven<BR>
Hudson<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 9:41 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:52:00 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
...<BR>
>Actually, it's likely that you *don't* want to use grav technology for<BR>
>anything smaller than a grav tank, simply because CG units have a<BR>
>sensor signature that's as bad as jet engines or rockets on an IR<BR>
>sensor. Probably *worse*.<BR>
<BR>
  Note that in CT there is no such signature. So all of you heretics<BR>
(MT, TNE, T4, GT - did I miss any?) can just forget about it :><BR>
<BR>
>In other words, a big, fat "shoot me" sign. This tends to annoy the<BR>
>troops that have to work with them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
  Wouldn't this apply to nGMP's, too?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:26:07 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
Sam,<BR>
<BR>
Yes you are mixing up the difference between daylight bombing and<BR>
strategic bombing.<BR>
<BR>
The brits did strategic bombing at the same time as the americans, only<BR>
they did their bombings at night.  The goal was the same - destroy the<BR>
enemies ability to make war - THIS is was strategic bombing is all<BR>
about, and it worked!  When you can no longer make ball bearings you can<BR>
no longer make war machines!  The allies targeted industrial complexes<BR>
that made war materials, not just the end item.<BR>
<BR>
You have been discussing crew losses  - british crew loss was lower than<BR>
the americans, but so was their probablity of a kill.  The american<BR>
docterine - daylight bombing - was effective because you killed the<BR>
target factory the first time not after multiple missions.  The USAF has<BR>
a number of good articles on how daylight bombing was effective.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Also, look at desert strom - strategic bombing was used there, but the<BR>
weapons were "smarter" and hit their targets more often.  I was watching<BR>
<BR>
CNN when they showed a slide with the amount of bomb tonnage dropped to<BR>
destroy a target in WW2, vs Korea, vs Desert Storm.<<BR>
<BR>
>With the corollaries being;<BR>
>1. Kuwait wasn't liberated until ground troops went in.<BR>
>2. Hussein is still in power as Baghdad was never occupied.<BR>
>So much for the success of strategic bombing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
As in any war until the infantry take and stand on the ground - it is<BR>
no-mans-land.<BR>
<BR>
As for Hussein being in power still that is a disscussion I would not<BR>
even attemp here, but getting rid of a countries leader when you don't<BR>
know who will step into the power vaccume is not always in your best<BR>
interest.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:40:24 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/5/00 4:28 PM, Henry Penninkilampi at htp@metropolis.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> The yanks tried _real_hard_ to terminate SH.  Hell, the CIA even financed<BR>
> and engineered at least one coup attempt (that has leaked so far - we'll<BR>
> probably hear about others down the track).  Of course, that failed, just<BR>
> like the USMIL's other "non-attempts" at blowing him to pieces with<BR>
> cruise missiles.<BR>
> <BR>
> Having failed (again) at acheiving a primary objective, the US<BR>
> administration turns to CNN and the media to begin the long-term process<BR>
> of brainwashing the public and covering up their failures and mistakes.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
What! a whole week without yank bashing?  Thanks, Henry, I was beginning to<BR>
feel like you foreigners had forgotten about us :)<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> "No, there is no problem with our target identification systems.  Those<BR>
> soldiers who you see scrambling out of the APC that one of our Apache's<BR>
> just fired at are _not_ British."<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
A small mistake.  The gunner thought they were Australian.<BR>
<BR>
> Ahhh, the USA - 280,000,000 lemmings, and a force to be reckoned with.<BR>
<BR>
More like 250,000,00 lemmings, 20,000,00 wackos, psychos and freaks, and<BR>
about 10,000,000 hard motherf**ckers with lots of guns, knives, bombs and<BR>
attitude.  Down in Florida, they shoot tourists for sport.  Here in the<BR>
west, we just stockpile our arms and prepare for the day when some<BR>
needle-dick foreigner in a blue beret tries to tell us how it's going to be.<BR>
<BR>
So the US is not great at the slimy stuff.  Big deal.  Your scummy spooks<BR>
are better than our scummy spooks. We really prefer a stand up, mano-a-mano,<BR>
John Wayne kinda fight.  At least we shared desert storm with all those<BR>
third rate European, so that they could feel like their military was<BR>
actually worth something.<BR>
<BR>
Pardon me for venting, but please...enough of the US bashing crap.  I don't<BR>
piss on your country, please respect mine.  If you feel you need to flame<BR>
someone, take it off the list.<BR>
<BR>
My god, for a while most of the stuff on the TML actually related to<BR>
Traveller!!<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:45:51 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics (AIR)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
...<BR>
>>Those are all examples of doctrine (/doctrinal failings), although<BR>
>arguably some of them were caused by limitations on available hard-<BR>
>ware. If, OTOH, the British army had accepted delivery of inappropriate<BR>
>vehicles without input on what was to be delivered, then the result<BR>
>would have been due to manufacturers over-specialization.<<BR>
><BR>
>Which is one of the core arguments I keep making against strategic bombers<BR>
>and bombing. A lousy doctrine and poor early designs should have resulted in<BR>
>no late war 4-engines bombers. Instead of accepting it wasn't working, they<BR>
>just kept on going.<BR>
<BR>
  4E heavies could do real damage to military targets by daylight if unopposed,<BR>
and the threat of same tied down vital resources - the same "fleet-(ship)-in-<BR>
being" principle that made Tirpitz the most popular carnival milk bottle of<BR>
WW2, and that makes the first AHL-type to be produced the most "valuable".<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, it seems quite possible that such a/c could have made a real contri-<BR>
bution in North Africa, if their basing had been practical while the issue <BR>
still seemed to be in the balance - German/Italian port capacity would have <BR>
been even more challenged if the less-dangerous (outside DAF range) ports<BR>
were still subject to occasional rains of smallish GP bombs.<BR>
<BR>
  Note that I'm not suggesting that 4E bombers were decisive (this seems<BR>
strongly counter-factual, IMHO), merely that roughly efficient roles did<BR>
exist, and that they offered some effect before the Normandy landings<BR>
when the alternatives would not have drastically improved things - the<BR>
requirement of basing most units in the UK dictated that.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, and the strategic bombing campaign cost more American lives than just<BR>
>those of the bomb crews. Iwo Jima was "important" so it could be turned into<BR>
>a forward airbase.<BR>
<BR>
  But heavy bomber interdiction of Japanese rear areas was going to be <BR>
crucial to the initial landing program. Making those flyers into more<BR>
ground-pounders (and where the extra sea-lift/amphib capacity was going<BR>
to come from is a mystery...) was simply going to mean more bodies to<BR>
heap up on the beaches. Not only could those heavies reach Japanese<BR>
ports and their contents, but smaller aircraft very likely couldn't<BR>
have done so :(<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:47:03 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>>We've been talking Europe.  Strategic bombing in the Pacific was<BR>
>different, but I think you're painting it with the same brush.<<BR>
><BR>
>Right, in the Pacific it escalated to the level of mass murder much more<BR>
>quickly. And resulted in mass suicide orders for longer as well.<BR>
<BR>
  I'm not sure that USAAF casualties in bombing Japan were very high,<BR>
and certainly not by ETO standards; navigational errors were more of<BR>
a risk than Japanese defences by mid-`45, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
  Trying to burn out Japanese cities as an easier approach than trying<BR>
to hit small targets with sufficient HE was of highly dubious morality,<BR>
although militarily it seems to have been a good guess.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>One of my positions is that the heavy losses the Germans suffered trying to<BR>
>bomb England into submission, combined with the knowledge of how England<BR>
>survived it and the losses suffered on the early raids should have dissuaded<BR>
>the Allied high command from believing the unproven (and close to absolutely<BR>
>disproves) assertions of the strategic air theorists.<BR>
<BR>
  It's worth considering that the RAF could reasonably conclude that i)<BR>
that's how the Germans want to play, fine, and ii) we've got the weapons<BR>
to do it _right_. Barring unlikely precision (if daylight low-level raids<BR>
by Mosquito's were common, then they'd quickly become suicide...) the<BR>
issue - even in daylight bombing - is one of bomb-load, and the British<BR>
aviation industry was well-suited to putting up craft that would carry<BR>
impressive loads to any target in Greater Germany.<BR>
<BR>
  After some early attacks with _really_ disturbing loss rates it became<BR>
obvious that if acceptable loss rates were to be maintained (and the Berlin<BR>
series failed even that test - but those high-velocity guns weren't back-<BR>
stopping the Ostfront) then inland Germany could only be attacked at night.<BR>
<BR>
  Whether the final decision to use night area-bombing of civilians was<BR>
necessary is unclear, and sadly the highly dubious (IMHO) morality of<BR>
the policy that required those attacks did not prevent them.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: the 3I never* seriously considered splattering Terra's surface<BR>
except in support of tactical ops (and attacks against hard military<BR>
targets). People who insist on "use-everything-just-becuz" are more<BR>
likely to be 40K players than firmly rooted in reality, but they're<BR>
most certainly not giving much consideration to the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
  * well, maybe, but those documents won't be released until ~1500, <BR>
and then only about 50 words will remain uncensored :><BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 23:21:25 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
><BR>
>>Largely a different situation - besides a seeming predeliction for all<BR>
>sorts of neat designs being produced for their own sakes, the Germans<BR>
>most certainly did need to keep factories churning out the current item<BR>
>at maximum rates just to meet current needs, and thus the profusion of<BR>
>different designs from different companies, complexes, or foreign pre-war<BR>
>inventories. Provision of spares wasn't always possible.<<BR>
><BR>
>Actually German factory production was below maximum for until Barbarossa<BR>
>hit its second year. They took a lackadaisical approach to production<BR>
>because they thought they would win in months. Further I thought if they<BR>
<BR>
  Well, excepting the sheer unreality of their policy while they waited<BR>
for their enemies to accept the new order in Europe (UK, later US) or<BR>
simply keel over (USSR)...<BR>
<BR>
>wanted production to stay high they wouldn't have kept coming up with new<BR>
>vehicles and just stayed with the old ones.<BR>
<BR>
  They had to keep producing what the current complexes (e.g., Skoda)<BR>
were producing, and run any captured machines into the ground to keep<BR>
front-line strength up. And when a new role was detected an improvised<BR>
reponse often got slapped onto a chassis in a timely if not wholly<BR>
efficient fashion (alternative: Div has the TD's, and we're SOL...)<BR>
<BR>
  While rationalization of varieties was a big part of Speers reforms,<BR>
expansion of production was the main contributor to increased output.<BR>
And the Germans were entirely correct in realizing that the earlier<BR>
chassis were almost wholly unsuited to main-stream demands by even<BR>
late `43 (i.e., II's become scout/spotter hulls, and III automotives<BR>
become bases for SP superstructures, rather than <giggle> "MBT's").<BR>
Luckily, they were mistaken in thinking that this would still give <BR>
them much of a chance...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:34:12 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone ever tried using a version of Niven's ringworld in <BR>
Traveller?  I'm not talking about one like the unfinished ringworld in <BR>
the Hinterworld's Sector, I mean a version of Niven's, with all the <BR>
human variants.  <BR>
<BR>
Instead of being made by Protectors, it could be made by the <BR>
Ancients, the human variants could all be evolved from the early <BR>
humans which were brought there 300,000 years ago (likely with <BR>
some help from Ancient genetic engineers).  Instead of Kzin you <BR>
could have Vargr and maybe even a few Aslan.  A few other minor <BR>
modifications would need to be made to fit in with Traveller, but I <BR>
think you could even fit in the City-Builder ramships and such-like<BR>
(although you might want to drop the whole destabilized ringworld <BR>
sub-plot).  <BR>
<BR>
I think the fit for Traveller would be *very* close.  So, has anyone <BR>
else ever done this or will I perhaps be the first.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:43:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
Completely off-topic, but you lot are probably the best people to understand<BR>
how this feels.<BR>
<BR>
I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science Fiction<BR>
convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in the<BR>
short story competition.<BR>
<BR>
I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
<BR>
For those that are interested, I also got to prop up the bar with Sean<BR>
McMullen (an Aussie writer) and Tad Wiliams ( "Tailchaser's Song", "Memory,<BR>
Sorrow & Thorn"; & "OtherLand").<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:53:15 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
> Completely off-topic, but you lot are probably the best people to understand<BR>
> how this feels.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, it's about SF, so it's more on topic than many rants around here <BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
> I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science Fiction<BR>
> convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in the<BR>
> short story competition.<BR>
> <BR>
> I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
<BR>
*applause*<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations!<BR>
<BR>
> For those that are interested, I also got to prop up the bar with Sean<BR>
> McMullen (an Aussie writer) and Tad Wiliams ( "Tailchaser's Song", "Memory,<BR>
> Sorrow & Thorn"; & "OtherLand").<BR>
<BR>
Haven't heard of McMullen, but a friend is trying to force me to read<BR>
OtherLand in my (lack of) spare time. He says it's great. Must be nice<BR>
to be put in the same context as that author.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:02:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Under GURPS Ultra-Tech rules as modified for Traveller a Meson Communicator<BR>
> weighs 300 lbs, but a meson receiver only adds 5 lbs to a short or medium<BR>
> range communicator. At GTL8 a medium range communicator is good for 200<BR>
> miles and weighs 1 lb so a meson receiver is 6 lbs at GTL10. At GTL12 a<BR>
> meson communicator is 75 lbs and a receiver  is 1.5 lbs.  Location has to be<BR>
> known within 20 yards.<BR>
<BR>
The robots have to have *transmitters*, not just receivers. One-way<BR>
datalinks *don't* work. No way to request resends of garbled data.<BR>
<BR>
And the proper instructions for a robot require it being able to report<BR>
the circumstances it is in.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:52:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: GM's, send the PC's off on a 'swipe the datadisk' mission into a<BR>
> supposedly guarded building. Let them waltz in, take it and leave.<BR>
><BR>
> Watch PC's go absolutely batshit trying to figure out the 'trap'...<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget to take notes of all the traps they come up with. You can<BR>
always use them later...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:52:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
> Query: Is there any subtle distinction between sentient and sapient?<BR>
<BR>
Technically, yes. "Sentient" just means "self-aware", most mammals are<BR>
sentient, they know they exist as an entity.<BR>
<BR>
Sapient, from "sapiens" (wise) implies that the creature is not only self<BR>
aware but similar in performance to Homo Sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 06:06:08 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:34:12 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Has anyone ever tried using a version of Niven's ringworld in <BR>
>Traveller?  I'm not talking about one like the unfinished ringworld in <BR>
>the Hinterworld's Sector, I mean a version of Niven's, with all the <BR>
>human variants.  <BR>
><BR>
>Instead of being made by Protectors, it could be made by the <BR>
>Ancients, the human variants could all be evolved from the early <BR>
>humans which were brought there 300,000 years ago (likely with <BR>
>some help from Ancient genetic engineers).  Instead of Kzin you <BR>
>could have Vargr and maybe even a few Aslan.  A few other minor <BR>
>modifications would need to be made to fit in with Traveller, but I <BR>
>think you could even fit in the City-Builder ramships and such-like<BR>
>(although you might want to drop the whole destabilized ringworld <BR>
>sub-plot).  <BR>
><BR>
>I think the fit for Traveller would be *very* close.  So, has anyone <BR>
>else ever done this or will I perhaps be the first.<BR>
<BR>
A good location for it would in a rift. If it was more than 9 parsecs<BR>
away from anything it would be quite difficult to get to. Or the space<BR>
around it has only stars but they have no planets or belts. Ol' Daddy<BR>
Yas used them for materials.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:25:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Moore's Law (was Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
<Todd><BR>
Actually Moore predicted it would double about every 2 years and then in<BR>
the last 10 years has revised it to more like 18 months.  Its getting<BR>
faster not slower. <BR>
</Todd><BR>
<BR>
Just to be picky, according to the MIT article, Moore originally placed<BR>
the doubling time at 1 year and later revised it to 2 years.  People<BR>
generally "split the difference" and say 1.5 years.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:46:37 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots (long)<BR>
<BR>
<snipped a lot, very embarrassing stuff><BR>
<BR>
Open mouth insert foot.  You are right Chris.  I was to lazy to open the<BR>
magazine that was sitting on my desk to reference Moore's Law stuff.<BR>
<BR>
But I stand firmly behind whatever else I said!    8^P<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:43:48 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Neural Nets (was Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
<Michael><BR>
  The question now was if massive neurons are sufficient to implement<BR>
  real intelligence.  Human as about 10 terra neurons, so Moors law would<BR>
  mean that we would be able to implement a human sized neural network<BR>
  within the next 20 years.<BR>
<BR>
  But sheer number of neurons are not enough - our neurons are not grouped<BR>
  at random, nor are those of an ant. Any network larger than a 16x16x5<BR>
  Kohonen network, becomes difficult to train. The larger the network,<BR>
  the longer the training. Our extremly large network is not only trained<BR>
  by environment (learning) but also initialised with predefined starting<BR>
  values based on million years of evolution.<BR>
</Michael><BR>
<BR>
I wonder if we could construct a model of neural connections by taking a<BR>
human brain, freezing it, slicing it thinly and then imaging the slices?<BR>
A 3D reconstruction from that shouldn't be too difficult.  Granted there<BR>
would be some "noise" in the data, but the overall structure should be<BR>
sufficient for basic functioning, especially with some training.  It would<BR>
not be easy, for sure, maybe even something on the order of the human<BR>
genome project, but it seems doable.<BR>
<BR>
As for Moore's law, if processing keeps increasing at the present rate<BR>
(yes, yes, I know that's not necessarily the case) we should be able to<BR>
simulate a whole small town's worth of neurons in the next 30 to 40 years.<BR>
That will be interesting!  Assuming we can shape these masses of neurons<BR>
into something useful, it will be a paradigm shift for the social<BR>
sciences, allowing "virtual experiments" with much greater control of<BR>
"subjects" and parameters. Of course, this raises a whole host of ethical<BR>
concerns...<BR>
<BR>
As for Kohonen networks (whatever those are, I'm no neural networker!),<BR>
would it be possible to modularize them into a larger system?  You say a<BR>
network is trainable to identify moving objects.  Could another such<BR>
network be trained to choose appropriate actions from a large set, based<BR>
on the output of the object identifier?  Could one build up a "pyramid" of<BR>
such small networks to accomplish much more complex tasks?<BR>
<BR>
Just wondering...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:59:57 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
>Yes the ISBA days  ah CmdrX remember our dreams of creating <BR>
>the ISBA to give ships and companies more background snd how it <BR>
>just faded away.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, I remember.  I even remember Cleon (Marc) giving it his blessings.<BR>
This new Corporate Profile thing may bring at least some of it back.<BR>
<BR>
Not everyone faded away, alot of the "comapnies" still exist and there is<BR>
still a THUDDD.  I think after the fall of T4 many went their separate<BR>
ways, using the system of their choice.  For example, I went GURPS ;-)  I<BR>
OT this by saying ISBA was broke up by the Imperial Civil War of the<BR>
600's.<BR>
<BR>
>I never got my 15 mins of fame though..Hmm well the future holds <BR>
>many things.  Godds has it been 4 years already.   <BR>
>Tim Reynolds<BR>
>tim@premier.net <BR>
>225-334-5063<BR>
>www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
<BR>
I'd say I have about 10 minites owed to me.  IG, CORE, and BITS only gave<BR>
me 5 so far.<BR>
GURPS has given me a couple of seconds worth, with the release of the<BR>
Naval Design Rules on JTAS.<BR>
The rest of that minute should come when GT:Starships comes out. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Patiently awaiting the release of GT: Starships, Imperial Navy, Ground<BR>
Forces(All Hail Penguin Boy!) and seeing what T5 has to offer.<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:11:49 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
>I just can't resist moving into this morass. <BR>
<BR>
You knew what you were getting into...<G><BR>
<BR>
>Quite apart from the moral position of MAD realistically SAC bombers <BR>
>never made sense. The so called Strategic Triad was never more than a <BR>
>political excuse to keep pouring money into the Air Force. Both land <BR>
>based and aircraft delivery systems were never really viable. Land based <BR>
>were vulnerable to first strike and by the time aircraft based assets <BR>
>came into play their targets would have already been taken out by <BR>
>missiles from SSBN's. <BR>
<BR>
I'm terribly sorry, but you are mistaken.<BR>
<BR>
The B-36 Peacemaker went into service, with the ability to fly from<BR>
any place on Earth and drop atomic bombs on any place on Earth,<BR>
before any atomic missile weapons were developed by *anyone*.<BR>
That includes SSBN's.  That deals with *never*.  In it's time, the<BR>
B-36 was the *only* intercontinental delivery system for atomic<BR>
weapons.  <BR>
<BR>
Later on, as Soviet (and American) air defense capabilities became<BR>
more sophisticated, the capability of newer generations of bombers<BR>
to penetrate and make their targets became questionable, of course.<BR>
Thus the alteration of so many existing B-52's to carry large<BR>
conventional payloads for use in conventional warfare situations.<BR>
(We had them.  It was cheaper to modify an existing airframe for<BR>
a new role than to make new specialist airframes.  The B-52 is<BR>
already the longest active-duty airframe on the planet, and it <BR>
should be around for another decade or two.)<BR>
<BR>
As for land-based assets being vulnerable, do your homework.  Remember<BR>
the DEW line radar stations?  The Soviets and their allies had similar<BR>
stations.  Sure, nuclear missiles could hit missile silos.  Would any <BR>
missiles be there by then?<BR>
<BR>
That's why the praries of the American midwest were so popular for<BR>
putting up missile silos.  With the advent of the missile submarine<BR>
threat, our retaliatory strike capability needed to be as far from the<BR>
nearest ocean as possible.<BR>
<BR>
Now, as for sub launched...the US Navy has labels for Soviet boomers.<BR>
They call them targets.<BR>
<BR>
"The Soviet Navy has copied our advanced, quieter prop technology and<BR>
is using it on their submarines now.  The improvement is quite<BR>
noticeable...now, instead of each sub being as noisy as a brass band<BR>
marching on cobblestones with hobnailed boots, it's as if the brass<BR>
band were wearing tennis shoes." - related to me by my brother...he's<BR>
biased, of course, being an American submariner. <G><BR>
<BR>
The cold war was insane.  The stupidest thing we Americans could<BR>
have possibly taken part in.  The only thing more stupid would have<BR>
been for us not to take part.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2558<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (rly-zb03.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.3]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:16:40 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:16:16 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA42600;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:15:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:14:53 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA42527<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:14:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:14:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006061314.JAA42527@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2558<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2559</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 9:33:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2559<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
RE: non-SF Games<BR>
First Survey<BR>
Re: Meson communicators/Warbots<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Subject: Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
ON Topic: Bragging<BR>
re: OT: Bragging<BR>
RE: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
Vs: Milibots<BR>
RE: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
Re: First Survey<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
Re: Brief Rant<BR>
Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:34:00 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Here it goes, hope I got the numbers right...<BR>
<BR>
Universal Corporate Profile<BR>
<BR>
X-TEK (1623 Vincennes/Deneb)   9-ED(B)6-2CC Pub Cons3 Manu2 Ret2 Min Fin<BR>
Svc 33A Imp <BR>
<BR>
Company Name: X-TEK of Deneb, LIC<BR>
Domain of Deneb Stock Excahnge(DDSE) Code: XTK<BR>
<BR>
HQ: HRD (1623 Vincennes/Deneb)<BR>
Branch HQ: Mora (3124 Mora/Marches); Depot Corridor (1511 Strand/Corridor)<BR>
<BR>
#Employees: 9 (Billions, employed across 6 Sectors)<BR>
<BR>
Range: E (Multi-sector, Domain of Deneb plus Corridor sector)<BR>
<BR>
Influence: Domain Wide: D  Imperium Wide: B<BR>
X-TEK has a strong influence within the Domain of Deneb and Corridor,<BR>
based on its relationship with Imperial Navy and Domain Nobility.  In the<BR>
Imperal Core that influence is lessened, mostly due to the Megacorporate<BR>
interests dominating therein and the Vilani distaste for X-TEK's inovative<BR>
research practices.<BR>
<BR>
Public Image: 6 (Slightly above average opinion)<BR>
X-TEK is seen in the general populace as a rather average corporation.<BR>
Attacks towards the company tend to come from rival corporations engaging<BR>
in marketing schemes, corporate politics and even the occasional case of<BR>
corporate espionage.  Such acts tend to be transparent toward the average<BR>
citizen however.  There is also that pesky Vilani market who finds X-TEK a<BR>
bit too inovative and even dangerous.  (If the Vilani think X-TEK is<BR>
dangerous, do they outright boycott Spofulam? <G>)<BR>
<BR>
Research and Development: 2 (20%)<BR>
Nearly a fifth of the Corporate budget is put into X-TEK R&D who's main<BR>
office is on Vincennes (1122 Vincennes/Deneb)<BR>
Research is involved in weapons technology, Black Globe research, and<BR>
advanced propulsion systems.  Most of this research is partialy funded by<BR>
the Imperial Navy and classified (FNORD).<BR>
<BR>
Turnover: C (Estimated in the Trillions of Credits per year)<BR>
Profit:  C (Estimated in the Trillions of Credits per year)<BR>
<BR>
Nature: Publicly Listed Company with some Private Contracting (Imperial<BR>
Navy)<BR>
<BR>
Areas: <BR>
Const3 (30% in Starship/Starport Construction)<BR>
Manu2 (20% in starship component manufacturing)<BR>
Ret2 (20% in retail trade of X-TEK susidiary merchandise)<BR>
Min (5% in resource mining subsidiaries)<BR>
Fin (3% in Starship Financing)<BR>
Srv (2% in information services, technical support of products, and<BR>
vocational eduaction)<BR>
RnD2 (20% in R&D, see above)<BR>
<BR>
Tradition: 3 (Strong)<BR>
Corporate Structure is based on Imperial Naval doctrines.  The CEO is<BR>
tradtionaly refered to as "The Commander", a practice that dates back to<BR>
the early imperium when X-TEK was a sole propriatorship of  "Commander X".<BR>
Corporate structure has only changed a few times since its inception as a<BR>
Limited Imperial Corporation (LIC).  Changes include incorporating a<BR>
slightly more decentralised structure and diversification of interests.<BR>
<BR>
Politics: 3 (Strong)<BR>
Politics are strong in the corportation and limmited to the upper echelons<BR>
of the executive officers and CEO.<BR>
The Commander (CEO) is the ultimate abiter of company decision making,<BR>
with the Subcommanders (Executive officers and Branch CEO's) making up the<BR>
Board of Commanders.  Nearly all the executive staff are either ex-Navy or<BR>
Imperial Nobles from the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
<BR>
Paranoia: A (High)<BR>
Due to the sensitive nature of X-TEK R&D, where most is classified by the<BR>
Imperial Navy, X-TEK keeps a record of every employee in its massive<BR>
personell files.  Background checks are mandantory before employment is<BR>
even considered, and periodic checks are common.  Although invasive, X-TEK<BR>
is not as tyranical as SolSec (Paranoia F).  This level of protection is<BR>
accepted because not only corporate, but Imperial security is at stake.<BR>
X-TEK keeps a division of corporate agents, many who have worked for Naval<BR>
Intellegence, the MoJ, and even S3 operatives as a corporate<BR>
anti-espionage and anti-sabotage team.  This team is known officialy as<BR>
the BuerauX and unofficaly as the MIB, due to their flat black uniforms.  <BR>
<BR>
Nationality: Imperial (Domain of Deneb)<BR>
<BR>
Ownership:<BR>
X-TEK: 55%<BR>
Imperial Navy: 15%<BR>
Domain Nobility: 7%<BR>
Imperial Family: 5%<BR>
Other Corporations: 13%<BR>
Individual Private Stock Owners: 5%<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:51:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
What a great game - I even still play it.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ben<BR>
> Aaronovitch<BR>
> Sent: 06 June 2000 01:37<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I remember playing En Garde (pre-Traveller) from which...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: 6 Jun 2000 06:57:54 -0700<BR>
From: James Pearson <jdpearson@jvlnet.com><BR>
Subject: First Survey<BR>
<BR>
Hi all - I've been gone from this list for quite some time, but I'm back for a while.  It's good to see it going so strongly still!<BR>
<BR>
I'm starting a new campaign, set in Milieu 0.  So I've been doing some digging and background research.  I'm looking at the First Survey data (from various sources - Milieu 0 Campaign book - Galactic - Astrogator ) and I noticed in the TML FAQ that First survey is beleived to be "Fundamentally Flawed".  Why?  If someone could shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it.<BR>
<BR>
Is there one particular source that should be better than another?  Any other printed, canon that I should look at besides M:0 ?  Thanks for all the help.<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heavan and earth, Horatio, <BR>
than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
Hamlet - Act 1, Scene 5<BR>
http://www.jvlnet.com/~jdpearson<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/jdpearson<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now!<BR>
Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:45:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Meson communicators/Warbots<BR>
<BR>
> From: Steven Hudson<BR>
>   Under CT rules (Striker, and yes, CT _does_ rule :> ) your smallest<BR>
> unit (TL: F) is 500 kg, 500L, and Cr 1,000,000. Your mil-bot is now an <BR>
> OGRE Mk. I or thereabouts...<BR>
<BR>
I guess the thing to look at is how would you go about building a decent<BR>
drone missile, or a remotely piloted reconnaisance drone.  These are the<BR>
kind of warbots the Imperium uses.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to go for "proper" warbots, then you take the warhead off your<BR>
drone missile, and stick on some cheapo weapons.  The drone becomes a<BR>
reusable weapons platform.  It might even be expendable.<BR>
<BR>
These things aren't replacements for sentient troops, but they are useful<BR>
support weapons.  <BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:14:41 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Thus we see that some Imperial Worlds or Mega Corporations<BR>
>may indeed make armed robots quite legally. Their planet<BR>
>may not follow the Concords or their robots may be armed in<BR>
>accordance with the Concord. [1]<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Could this be tied (generally) to law level?  At what<BR>
	law level would one expect armed robots to be illegal?<BR>
	Would it differ depending on whether or not the<BR>
	weapon(s) are integral to the robot?  Perhaps it is<BR>
	illegal to give a robot a weapon at LL7+, or to<BR>
	build in a weapon at LL6+.  Presumably, local armed<BR>
	forces would be exempt.  Another approach would be to<BR>
	increase LL by 1 for robots, by 2 for integral<BR>
	weapons on robots.  Any ideas out there?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:27:43 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Samwise wrote:<BR>
>Or does this mean you want to take a Pro position supporting MAD now? <BR>
>Yes, mutual genocide makes so much sense as a valid strategic plan not <BR>
>to mention moral position<BR>
<BR>
He couldn't win his argument on the facts, so he's rewrapping his<BR>
argument in morality.<BR>
<BR>
Good night, samwise1.  <BR>
<BR>
To the rest of the TML, I apologize for this thread, and thank those<BR>
who found good ObTravs from it. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:56:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Lost Secrets<BR>
<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> ObTrav: GM's, send the PC's off on a 'swipe the datadisk' mission into<BR>
a<BR>
>> supposedly guarded building. Let them waltz in, take it and leave.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Watch PC's go absolutely batshit trying to figure out the 'trap'...<BR>
<BR>
>Don't forget to take notes of all the traps they come up with. You can<BR>
>always use them later...<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like a lot of my games.  And yes I DO remeber what the PC's thought<BR>
I did to use it against them next time.<BR>
<BR>
Ever upgrade Grimtooth's Traps to TL10+ ?  Fusion Guns make excellent<BR>
Fireballs ;-><BR>
<BR>
And yes the best trap is the "Pit of Paranoia", aka the "Zen Trap".  That<BR>
trap that does not exist, except in the mind...<BR>
<BR>
Great Ghu I love being Evil! (Pinky to lip)<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:58:19 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: ON Topic: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
Well done to Frank Pitt!  Congrats on getting published, and on<BR>
your honorable mention.  What would Traveller be without Science<BR>
Fiction writers, and Science Fiction needs new voices.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:28:03 +0100<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: re: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
>"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Completely off-topic, but you lot are probably the best people to<BR>
understand<BR>
>how this feels.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Indeed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science Fiction<BR>
>convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in<BR>
the<BR>
>short story competition.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Are we going to be allowed to know what it was (or have a run down on the<BR>
plot) in the absence of being able to get hold of the whole thing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
<BR>
>For those that are interested, I also got to prop up the bar with Sean<BR>
>McMullen (an Aussie writer) and Tad Wiliams ( "Tailchaser's Song",<BR>
"Memory,<BR>
>Sorrow & Thorn"; & "OtherLand").<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
We're not worthy!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, well done.  I hope this is just the first of many...<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:28:56 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: non-SF games (and dirtside Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
> >As crazy as it sounds, I'd actually like to see this.<BR>
> >It would be really useful for rolling up characters on<BR>
> >low-tech worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
> Very true - A lot of people forget that just because Traveller is<BR>
> SF, doesn't mean that you'll always have access to grav vehicles<BR>
> and lasers.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone remember Theives World?  It  was  a  multi-system  fantasy<BR>
world ... including Traveller, and had some notes by Marc  Miller<BR>
on handling magic.  IIRC there  were  a  couple  of  articles  in<BR>
Challenge magazine, too, on low-tech weapons and armor (using  MT<BR>
rules).<BR>
<BR>
I've once used it in my campaign:  The PCs mis-jumped and crashed<BR>
on the planet.  They were stuck there for several sessions.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:32:00 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 8:42 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I'd say some sort of machinegun/gauss rifle, and a 40 mm grenade<BR>
> launcher would be reasonable weapons to equip such a unit with. <BR>
> <BR>
This reminds me of the 'bots we used in our alternative history GURPS:War against the Cthorr-campaign. The 'bots were mainly miniature 4-track tanks with either an automatic 40mm GL or a minigun. They had enough brains and sensors to follow simple orders and shoot worms. Their main function was to provide close fire-support to our human team, none of whom was strong enough to carry that heavy weaponry. (My character's main weapon was a H&K machine gun with underbarrel GL and an a machete + cattle prod as bayonets..) As our characters are jet to discover the effectines of incendiary weapons vs. the worms, were forced to use grenades and high-rate autofire. The 'bots are at GTL 8, and we've already found out that it's not a good idea to leave them alone on the red zone. At least at that TL tey are just too dumb and unflexible to manage alone (and too expensive to just leave there when they get stuck...)<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:04:20 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Haven't tried putting a real ring world in, but someplace I've old notes on<BR>
a Well World. The PCs moving from High Tech to no tech to low tech hexes was<BR>
really entertaining.<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
If you hold a Unix shell up to your ear, can you hear the C?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 4:34 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Has anyone ever tried using a version of Niven's ringworld in<BR>
> Traveller?  I'm not talking about one like the unfinished ringworld in<BR>
> the Hinterworld's Sector, I mean a version of Niven's, with all the<BR>
> human variants.<BR>
><BR>
> Instead of being made by Protectors, it could be made by the<BR>
> Ancients, the human variants could all be evolved from the early<BR>
> humans which were brought there 300,000 years ago (likely with<BR>
> some help from Ancient genetic engineers).  Instead of Kzin you<BR>
> could have Vargr and maybe even a few Aslan.  A few other minor<BR>
> modifications would need to be made to fit in with Traveller, but I<BR>
> think you could even fit in the City-Builder ramships and such-like<BR>
> (although you might want to drop the whole destabilized ringworld<BR>
> sub-plot).<BR>
><BR>
> I think the fit for Traveller would be *very* close.  So, has anyone<BR>
> else ever done this or will I perhaps be the first.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>      Could this be tied (generally) to law level?  At what<BR>
>      law level would one expect armed robots to be illegal?<BR>
Generally speaking, warbots would be restricted military hardware, and illegal<BR>
for civilians to own at law levels above 0-2, depending on capabilities.  There<BR>
is no obvious reason for law level to affect warbots used by military forces.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>      Could this be tied (generally) to law level?  At what<BR>
>      law level would one expect armed robots to be illegal?<BR>
Generally speaking, warbots would be restricted military hardware, and illegal<BR>
for civilians to own at law levels above 0-2, depending on capabilities.  There<BR>
is no obvious reason for law level to affect warbots used by military forces.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:19:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: First Survey<BR>
<BR>
At 06:57 AM 6/6/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm starting a new campaign, set in Milieu 0.  So I've been doing some<BR>
digging and background research.  I'm looking at the First Survey data<BR>
(from various sources - Milieu 0 Campaign book - Galactic - Astrogator )<BR>
and I noticed in the TML FAQ that First survey is beleived to be<BR>
"Fundamentally Flawed".  Why?  If someone could shed some light on this,<BR>
I'd appreciate it.<BR>
<BR>
All the worlds have identical law levels and government numbers.  Big<BR>
computer glitch.<BR>
<BR>
Vland is listed as having a very low population, 3 if I remember correctly.<BR>
<BR>
Numerous places have a higher TL than Sylea, even though the new Third<BR>
Imperium is supposed to be the big kid on the block.<BR>
<BR>
Astrography doesn't agree with the history written in Milieu:0<BR>
<BR>
The M:0 Core sector data in Galatic 2.4 has been corrected.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/<BR>
               --|--<BR>
There's only us.  There's only this.<BR>
    No other way.  No other path.<BR>
          No day but today.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:19:05 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Ken J. Kazinski wrote,<BR>
>Yes you are mixing up the difference between daylight bombing and<BR>
strategic bombing.<BR>
<BR>
The brits did strategic bombing at the same time as the americans, only<BR>
they did their bombings at night.  The goal was the same - destroy the<BR>
enemies ability to make war - THIS is was strategic bombing is all<BR>
about, and it worked!<<BR>
<BR>
The I am not mixing them up, you are trying to separate them based on a<BR>
different tactical employment.<BR>
<BR>
> When you can no longer make ball bearings you can<BR>
no longer make war machines!  The allies targeted industrial complexes<BR>
that made war materials, not just the end item.<<BR>
<BR>
And when did German production stop? not slow, stop totally because of the<BR>
bombings? And how much was used up to stop how much production with slow<BR>
downs? If more was put into the effort, or less was gained for the effort<BR>
than other strategic plans, then the campaign was  failure.<BR>
Or don't loss rations matter in this analysis?<BR>
<BR>
>You have been discussing crew losses  - british crew loss was lower than<BR>
the americans, but so was their probablity of a kill.  The american<BR>
docterine - daylight bombing - was effective because you killed the<BR>
target factory the first time not after multiple missions.  The USAF has<BR>
a number of good articles on how daylight bombing was effective.<<BR>
<BR>
Which means what? Everything I have been saying!.<BR>
You do it at night you can only kill civilians effectively.<BR>
You do it during the day you can only kill your own bomber crews<BR>
effectively.<BR>
You put enough resources into it you eventually achieve your goals provided<BR>
you don't care about the collateral damage on either side. (Their civilians,<BR>
your crews.)<BR>
<BR>
>As in any war until the infantry take and stand on the ground - it is<BR>
no-mans-land.<<BR>
<BR>
Again supporting my point that instead of wasting time, money and men on a<BR>
strategic bombing campaign you should support tactical operations.<BR>
Hear is another good one, the Air Force never wanted to buy or use the A-10.<BR>
They weren't "glamorous" enough. Fortunately it was forced upon them and<BR>
their effectiveness more than proved.<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>4E heavies could do real damage to military targets by daylight if<BR>
unopposed,<BR>
and the threat of same tied down vital resources - the same<BR>
"fleet-(ship)-in-<BR>
being" principle that made Tirpitz the most popular carnival milk bottle of<BR>
WW2, and that makes the first AHL-type to be produced the most "valuable".<<BR>
<BR>
"Unopposed" and "force-in-being" being the two critical factors here. Since<BR>
they were employed in neither capacity I thank you for again supporting my<BR>
position.<BR>
<BR>
>Note that I'm not suggesting that 4E bombers were decisive (this seems<BR>
strongly counter-factual, IMHO), merely that roughly efficient roles did<BR>
exist, and that they offered some effect before the Normandy landings<BR>
when the alternatives would not have drastically improved things - the<BR>
requirement of basing most units in the UK dictated that.<<BR>
<BR>
I tried suggesting they could have been used in other roles as well but was<BR>
shot down on it.<BR>
<BR>
>But heavy bomber interdiction of Japanese rear areas was going to be<BR>
crucial to the initial landing program. Making those flyers into more<BR>
ground-pounders (and where the extra sea-lift/amphib capacity was going<BR>
to come from is a mystery...) was simply going to mean more bodies to<BR>
heap up on the beaches. Not only could those heavies reach Japanese<BR>
ports and their contents, but smaller aircraft very likely couldn't<BR>
have done so :(<<BR>
<BR>
But flying from carriers they could reach anywhere in Japan.<BR>
And lets get back to Japan starving from a total interdiction. Why invade if<BR>
a blockade would take out 75% of the population in 2 years anyway? It is not<BR>
like there was anyone else left to fight.<BR>
That's right, no glory in winning a siege. Silly me, I thought war was about<BR>
more than glory.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure that USAAF casualties in bombing Japan were very high,<BR>
and certainly not by ETO standards; navigational errors were more of<BR>
a risk than Japanese defences by mid-`45, IIRC.<<BR>
<BR>
I meant the men thrown away taking a piece of junk island like Iwo Jima, not<BR>
the bomber crews.<BR>
<BR>
>Trying to burn out Japanese cities as an easier approach than trying<BR>
to hit small targets with sufficient HE was of highly dubious morality,<BR>
although militarily it seems to have been a good guess.<<BR>
<BR>
But they didn't surrender because of the firebombing so it wasn't really a<BR>
good guess. That leaves only the dubious morality.<BR>
<BR>
> Whether the final decision to use night area-bombing of civilians was<BR>
necessary is unclear, and sadly the highly dubious (IMHO) morality of<BR>
the policy that required those attacks did not prevent them.<<BR>
<BR>
As I keep trying to point out. Further, since there were heavy casualties<BR>
they obviously didn't have the right weapons for the jobs.<BR>
I will concede that not having a few divisions of FlaK 88s was useful, but<BR>
how useful compared to the dead bomber crews?<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: the 3I never* seriously considered splattering Terra's surface<BR>
except in support of tactical ops (and attacks against hard military<BR>
targets). People who insist on "use-everything-just-becuz" are more<BR>
likely to be 40K players than firmly rooted in reality, but they're<BR>
most certainly not giving much consideration to the OTU.<<BR>
<BR>
Reminds me of a comment H. Beam Piper once made about the disregard for<BR>
casualties most non-military men wargamers have.<BR>
<BR>
>While rationalization of varieties was a big part of Speers reforms,<BR>
expansion of production was the main contributor to increased output.<BR>
And the Germans were entirely correct in realizing that the earlier<BR>
chassis were almost wholly unsuited to main-stream demands by even<BR>
late `43 (i.e., II's become scout/spotter hulls, and III automotives<BR>
become bases for SP superstructures, rather than <giggle> "MBT's").<BR>
Luckily, they were mistaken in thinking that this would still give<BR>
them much of a chance...<<BR>
<BR>
Oh I'm not complaining about their stupidity, just pointing out it shouldn't<BR>
be used as a cover for other problems.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote,<BR>
>The cold war was insane.  The stupidest thing we Americans could<BR>
have possibly taken part in.  The only thing more stupid would have<BR>
been for us not to take part.<<BR>
<BR>
And the smarter thing would have been to fight it another way.<BR>
But missile defense systems are evil because they might protect us, right?<BR>
<BR>
>He couldn't win his argument on the facts, so he's rewrapping his<BR>
argument in morality.<<BR>
<BR>
Actually you couldn't win your on facts so you kept trying to come up with<BR>
new and creative excuses. Further, since this started with morality its<BR>
obvious you meant to concede from the beginning. So I will just repeat what<BR>
I said at the beginning for your sake.<BR>
It doesn't help to win the war if you lose your humanity.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:The Fteirle understand that. The K'kree understand that. I'd say the<BR>
Zhodani, Vilani and Hivers understand that. Do the Vargr, Solomani and<BR>
Imperium understand it? Lucan didn't and Dulinor started forgetting it in<BR>
MT. Even Strephon forgot for a short time before remembering.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:26:57 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
...<BR>
>>FWIW, the AHL's do some things pretty well - they can do all sorts of<BR>
>>peace-time missions perfectly well, plus both commerce-raiding, deep<BR>
>>penetration _and_ counters to these in war-time. And a TL F CA _can't_<BR>
>>do these as well _if J5 capability is mission critical_! <BR>
...<BR>
>So we can agree on what to do with a ship with a limited war time use and<BR>
>highly specialized peacetime uses. Now it just goes back to what to do with<BR>
>ships poorly designed from the get go with a lousy strategic plan.<BR>
<BR>
  Gazelles! :><BR>
<BR>
  Crew them with undesirables, but don't explain _why_?<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav now becomes battle riders. They at least had their strategic<BR>
>deployment changed to take into account their tactical failures under the<BR>
>old plan<BR>
<BR>
  We still haven't heard from anyone play-testing the idea to death (isn't<BR>
there a Bay Area group doing Trav wargames? :> ), but the principle is<BR>
clear enough that we know that it sucks if it's not used carefully. The<BR>
point is that it can be superior if used carefully, if bad luck doesn't<BR>
interfere, and if the enemy doesn't have overwhelming local strength (if<BR>
the tenders get over-run then the riders are all out of the main war, where<BR>
conventional BB's would mostly Jump out and have good chances of re-grouping<BR>
in a month or so).<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:28:14 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
...<BR>
>> Having failed (again) at acheiving a primary objective, the US<BR>
>> administration turns to CNN and the media to begin the long-term process<BR>
>> of brainwashing the public and covering up their failures and mistakes.<BR>
><BR>
>What! a whole week without yank bashing?  Thanks, Henry, I was beginning to<BR>
>feel like you foreigners had forgotten about us :)<BR>
<BR>
  Whoa - he specified _the US administration_, bashing of whom is a Yank<BR>
job anyway; it's hardly his fault if you guys are slacking.<BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, maybe this ties in with the target ID'ing problems? :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:31:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
<John Snead><BR>
Has anyone ever tried using a version of Niven's ringworld in<BR>
Traveller?  I'm not talking about one like the unfinished ringworld in<BR>
the Hinterworld's Sector, I mean a version of Niven's, with all the<BR>
human variants.<BR>
<BR>
Instead of being made by Protectors, it could be made by the<BR>
Ancients, the human variants could all be evolved from the early<BR>
humans which were brought there 300,000 years ago (likely with<BR>
some help from Ancient genetic engineers).  Instead of Kzin you<BR>
could have Vargr and maybe even a few Aslan.  A few other minor<BR>
modifications would need to be made to fit in with Traveller, but I<BR>
think you could even fit in the City-Builder ramships and such-like<BR>
(although you might want to drop the whole destabilized ringworld<BR>
sub-plot).<BR>
</John Snead><BR>
<BR>
	I have an extensive write-up for an idea that sounds pretty<BR>
similar. In my version, the ring was built by the Ancients and had 200<BR>
walled-off "habitats" each containing a different intelligent species in a<BR>
simulation of its home world.  I developed the idea for a Year 0 campaign,<BR>
with the (decidedly non-canonical) notion that it had been discovered long<BR>
before by the Vilani and interdicted to prevent the social disruption<BR>
which might arise from too much contact with the ringdwellers. During the<BR>
Long Night, a group of Solomani colonized the ring and claimed dominion<BR>
over it (although 99% of the ringdwellers, being TL 3-, aren't even aware<BR>
of their existence).  The PCs are sent to the ring to investigate it as<BR>
part of Sylean expedition.<BR>
<BR>
Features of the ring include: <BR>
<BR>
Grav plates to vary the amount of gravity in each "habitat".  About .5 g<BR>
is generated by the rotation of the ring itself (the rotation is really<BR>
just a back-up to keep an area that temporarily loses its grav plates from<BR>
being in zero-g). <BR>
<BR>
A variable-filter shadow ring that lets through different radiation<BR>
spectra, giving each habitat effectively a different sun.  The sections of<BR>
the shadow ring also vary to create diurnal and seasonal changes.<BR>
<BR>
A teleportation-based defence against impacts or other dangers. Since the<BR>
Ancients clearly had this tech, I figured it would be better than just<BR>
trying to shoot asteroids or resist them.  <BR>
<BR>
The ringworld is built around a white-dwarf, so it's a lot smaller than<BR>
Niven's.  Of course, the shadow-ring has to filter out quite a bit of<BR>
radiation, but then it's Ancients "magitech", so that's okay. <BR>
<BR>
That's all I can think of right now.  Most of the races on the ring, as<BR>
mentioned earlier, are quite primitive, just like on Niven's Ringworld.<BR>
Like I said, I have a really long doc on this.  If you want, I'll try to<BR>
dig it out, but it's in a different city right now.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2559<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (rly-yh03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.35]) by air-yh01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:33:25 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:32:53 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA50062;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:31:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:31:02 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA49991<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:31:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:31:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006061631.MAA49991@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2559<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2560</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 10:23:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2560<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: First Survey<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: First Survey<BR>
Re: MT/T4 help needed<BR>
Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Fighters and missiles<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Fwd: Re: TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:31:01 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: First Survey<BR>
<BR>
> The M:0 Core sector data in Galatic 2.4 has been corrected.<BR>
<BR>
A revised version of the Massilia data, approved by Marc, is at<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772/gos/geom0.html<BR>
<BR>
Carlos<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:34:48 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:19 PM 06/06/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:The Fteirle understand that. The K'kree understand that. I'd say the<BR>
>Zhodani, Vilani and Hivers understand that. Do the Vargr, Solomani and<BR>
>Imperium understand it? Lucan didn't and Dulinor started forgetting it in<BR>
>MT. Even Strephon forgot for a short time before remembering.<BR>
<BR>
Lords and Martyrs!  There really was something ObTrav in all that noise.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:32:31 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
Steve Hudson wrote,<BR>
>Gazelles! :><BR>
<BR>
  Crew them with undesirables, but don't explain _why_?<<BR>
<BR>
ROFL<BR>
So the Imperium does use Convict "Battalions" of a sort?<BR>
Who are the officers then? Lieutenant's gone bad who want a chance at a<BR>
comeback?<BR>
<BR>
>We still haven't heard from anyone play-testing the idea to death (isn't<BR>
there a Bay Area group doing Trav wargames? :> ), but the principle is<BR>
clear enough that we know that it sucks if it's not used carefully. The<BR>
point is that it can be superior if used carefully, if bad luck doesn't<BR>
interfere, and if the enemy doesn't have overwhelming local strength (if<BR>
the tenders get over-run then the riders are all out of the main war, where<BR>
conventional BB's would mostly Jump out and have good chances of re-grouping<BR>
in a month or so).<<BR>
<BR>
I was referring to the OTU references to battle riders getting toasted<BR>
during the 4FW because they were on the front lines and couldn't run so they<BR>
were shifted to the reserve forces for the 5FW and were much more effective.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:29:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
<BR>
>>excuse to keep pouring money into the Air Force. Both land based and<BR>
>>aircraft delivery systems were never really viable. Land based were<BR>
>>vulnerable to first strike and by the time aircraft based assets came into<BR>
>>play their targets would have already been taken out by missiles from SSBN's.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, and the flyers were going to have the budget off-loaded to an<BR>
>inflexible, over-specialized naval system? And kill most of their<BR>
>career prospects into the bargain? :><BR>
<BR>
With most of my professional life in the ICBM and missile defense community I just could not <BR>
resist jumping in.<BR>
<BR>
First remember that land-based ICBMs were developed in the '60s and that sub-based ICBMs <BR>
are not as accurate as land-based.  From the start of the Cold War in 1945 till the deployment <BR>
of the Minuteman missile, Bombers were the ONLY delivery vehicle.  While the concept of a <BR>
strategic triad was a political decision to explain why we have three different delivery systems, <BR>
it was a concept that worked (we had the three elements before we had a strategy).<BR>
<BR>
Regarding a first strike I have heard contradictory strategies: (1)  To prevent an accidental <BR>
nuclear war only launch when damage has been observed on the ground (ie, we will absorb a <BR>
nuclear strike before retaliating), (2)  Launch on detection, (3)  Its the president's decision.<BR>
<BR>
It should be noted that an accidental nuclear war is a very real threat.  A few years ago a <BR>
Scandinavian country launched a missile.  The Russians were notified of the launch weeks <BR>
before it happened, but somehow it did not get to the right person/organization.  So, when the <BR>
missile was launched the Russians thought it was a sub-launched ICBM and they only had a <BR>
few minutes to decide to launch before being hit.  They decided not to launch.<BR>
<BR>
With the Cold War over ICBMs are pretty much useless and in fact they are dangerous.  The <BR>
US DoD is in the midst of a major drawdown.  The AF ICBM component (land-based) has <BR>
been halved and the supporting organizations have undergone an enormous drawdown greater <BR>
than the DoD in general.  It's the new world order.  <BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:42:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/6/00 9:04 AM, djdees@mm.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Haven't tried putting a real ring world in, but someplace I've old notes on<BR>
> a Well World.<BR>
<BR>
What is a Well World?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:44:11 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>>But #1 was the expected military course, and would only have been<BR>
>avoidable if a political alternative intervened. #2 was never really<BR>
>on the menu, as it would constitute a strategic loss for the US  :)<<BR>
><BR>
>#1 is what I heard all the analysts arguing about during the Kosovo bombing<BR>
>campaign so I think the strategic bombing proponents are trying to retcon to<BR>
>cover themselves yet again on that.<BR>
<BR>
  Sure, talking heads and press releases were all saying that a ground war<BR>
wasn't on the agenda, back when genuine debate on that subject might have<BR>
frustrated the admins policy. But how many people with a clue really did<BR>
believe that? (I don't recall too many Army-types having an epiphany and<BR>
suggesting that their budgets be transferred to the All-Mighty Air Force :> )<BR>
<BR>
  It wouldn't be too cynical to suggest that the handling of the media<BR>
there might be a great model for those who aren't really into the Shiny<BR>
Happy Third Imperium schtick.<BR>
<BR>
>As for #2, I disagree. But that's another totally OT subject as well.<BR>
<BR>
  I might too, but that appeared to be the formula determined by Bush and<BR>
his advisors - getting stuck in in Iraq affected none of Kuwait's freedom,<BR>
US oil, or his chances of re-election (in no particular order of priority).<BR>
<BR>
>>Oh, and the flyers were going to have the budget off-loaded to an<BR>
>inflexible, over-specialized naval system? And kill most of their<BR>
>career prospects into the bargain? :><<BR>
><BR>
>Bah, let them go be fighter jocks like they all wanted to be in the first<BR>
>place. Or transport crews if they were planning on a civilian aeronautics<BR>
>career. As for the Air Force Pentagon brass...I won't even try posting a<BR>
>clean version for what they can do in public.<BR>
<BR>
  Luckily the Far Future (tm) won't have inter-service rivalries. Right?<BR>
After all, everyone _knows_ that only the Navy matters, and that if any<BR>
other _real_ services existed they'd only be necessary for policing...<BR>
                [this message brought to you by unwitting stooges of INI]<BR>
***<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: 6 Jun 2000 09:44:40 -0700<BR>
From: James Pearson <jdpearson@jvlnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: First Survey<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 06 June 2000, "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The M:0 Core sector data in Galatic 2.4 has been corrected.<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Beautiful!  That's what I've been leaning towards anyway!  <BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heavan and earth, Horatio, <BR>
than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
Hamlet - Act 1, Scene 5<BR>
http://www.jvlnet.com/~jdpearson<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/jdpearson<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now!<BR>
Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:34:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT/T4 help needed<BR>
<BR>
At 03:46 AM 6/6/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Hello fellow Travellers,<BR>
><BR>
> - Could any of you gentlemen point me to any web resource pointing out<BR>
>erratas for MegaTraveller and the T4 line? (at least the main book/box)<BR>
<BR>
Main rules and CSC errata are at:<BR>
<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/t4.html<BR>
<BR>
> - Also, where can I find a discussion of what was considered broken about<BR>
>MT and T4? (rules-wise)<BR>
<BR>
well, the T4 combat rules were very weak, which is why James Lindsay and I<BR>
wrote At Close Quarters.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:36:38<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
At 09:43 PM 6/6/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science Fiction<BR>
>convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in the<BR>
>short story competition.<BR>
<BR>
Woo-Hoo!<BR>
<BR>
>I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
<BR>
Isn't that a great feeling?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Alle preisen den Pinguinherrscher!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:42:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:57 AM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sure it was, it was just retconned away when it didn't happen.<BR>
<BR>
No it WASN'T.  I will pay you $50,000 if you can produce *one* piece of<BR>
evidence where our leadership or the UN made the removal of the sitting<BR>
Iraqi government part of the military mission objectives.<BR>
<BR>
We would have liked to see him get overthrown, but it was never, I say<BR>
again NEVER part of the mission object for Central Command.<BR>
<BR>
>As for likely replacements, they could be have been dealt with similarly.<BR>
<BR>
And when the Iraqis shoot George Bush?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:39:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Fighters and missiles<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
> Subject: Fighters and Missiles<BR>
><BR>
> Some time ago someone had commented that with the Brilliant Lances rules<BR>
capital ship<BR>
> spinal mount weapons were not nearly as effective as waves of missiles, so<BR>
I decided to<BR>
> design some fighters and missiles.  The rules were FFSv2.  The Fighter is<BR>
basically a missile<BR>
> launch platform.  While I didn't design it the Fighter would have a<BR>
laser-armed Fighter Escort<BR>
> for defense against small craft.  Comments appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
What TL ? Does it use the incredibly broken and abusive thing - The<BR>
Abomination Known As Fusion Plus (aka "Lets completely break the Traveller<BR>
economic system")<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Specifications follow:<BR>
><BR>
> Fighter:<BR>
>   - 10 Td Sphere<BR>
>   - manuever, 7 g  (6 g grav comp + 1 g-couch)<BR>
>   - 9 g HEPlaR drive for emergency manuevering (total 16 G) with 30<BR>
minutes endurance<BR>
>   - 12 hour endurance<BR>
>   - 10 Missile Launch Canisters<BR>
>   - 10 MCr<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
No secondary weapons ? At all ? Not even a 250 MJ laser ? What about sensors<BR>
? What armour ?<BR>
<BR>
I really would build the accompanying escort fighter.<BR>
<BR>
> Missile<BR>
>   - HEPlaR, 48 g<BR>
>   - 30 minutes endurance<BR>
>   - 500 kT payload, long range laser det<BR>
>   - 12 MCr (for the payload alone)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Whats the armour on the missile ? What is it using to target the enemy ships<BR>
(remember, big ships are likely to have an EW advantage against active<BR>
sensors) ? Did you remember the fusion plant to prime the Heplar (OK, not<BR>
really an issue at TL15, but it's a big pain at TL13 and down).<BR>
<BR>
> Comments:<BR>
> (1)  Travelling at 7 G for 6 hours will give the Fighter a range of 1089<BR>
hexes (32.7 million km)<BR>
> and an ending velocity of 756 km/s.<BR>
<BR>
Given military sensors, we will detect you well outside that range, unless<BR>
you spend obscene amounts on stealthing and so on.<BR>
<BR>
It's also a suicide trip for your 12 hour duration fighter, becuase it will<BR>
need to spend 6 hours decelerating, putting you at or about the enemy fleet.<BR>
Bite the bullet and put in a type III life support system.<BR>
<BR>
> (2)  The missiles launched will retain this velocity plus be accelerated<BR>
by its own engines.  It<BR>
> will have a range of 50 hexes (1.4 million km).  45 hexes are from the<BR>
initial velocity with 5<BR>
> coming from the missile's engines.<BR>
> (3)  Range:  Fighter + Missile + Bomb = 1089 + 50 + 1 = 1140 hexes<BR>
> (4)  Damage Value:  113 per bomb.  Using this DV we can compute the energy<BR>
needed for<BR>
> other comparable weapons: PAW - 250 MJ, Meson - 500 MJ, Laser - 1000 MJ<BR>
(limited to<BR>
> 750).  Basically, "The Bomb" is powerful.<BR>
> (5)  At a launching range of 1.4 million km, fighters will be out of range<BR>
of most weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Well, no. Four light-seconds is about the range I build most weapons for.<BR>
But at 6 gees, your odds at being hit at three and a half light seconds are<BR>
pretty much nil (you have 7 seconds of acceleration to dodge, given speed of<BR>
light lag and all that. Even with only 2 gees dedicated to defense you'll<BR>
still be 490 meters away from your last known position).<BR>
<BR>
> (6)  Given the dispersed nature of fighters versus ships I think missile<BR>
armed fighters would be<BR>
> superior to missile armed ships.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Problem is my screening forces are going to be moving to engage your fighter<BR>
swarm at or about the 2 Mkm range. They will be armed with lasers, nuke<BR>
dampers and sand. Some of these screening forces may themselves be missiles<BR>
(especially if your fighters lack defensive weaponary).<BR>
<BR>
I dont believe that your 7 gee fighters will mount the armour to absorb<BR>
damage, and if they are using some of their acceleration to dodge fire, then<BR>
they arent using it to accelerate towards my fleet.<BR>
<BR>
If your main fleet is at or about 8 light seconds, to provide covering fire<BR>
for your fighters, then your fighters wont have the 'run up' time.<BR>
<BR>
My defending ships will be using a combination of counter-missiles (much,<BR>
much smaller and thus cheaper det-laser missiles, plus enough big nukes to<BR>
force your missiles to spread out), nuke dampers (which as an 'area effect'<BR>
weapon should be effective) and rapid fire lasers (FS builds a 250 MJ laser<BR>
that puts out a shot every 2.5 seconds).<BR>
<BR>
Very light fighters (a TL12 tub, costing less than MCr 10, pulling about<BR>
three gees and armed with a TL13 x-ray laser and a tech 12 AEMS) are also<BR>
effective at or about sixty kkm from the capital ship. Their role is purely<BR>
to absorb missile fire, whether by eating a shot from a MCr 12 missile, or<BR>
by shooting them up at such close range that even 48 gees becomes<BR>
ineffective.<BR>
<BR>
My main fleet may also be conducting a tactical withdrawl at 3 gees or so,<BR>
in order to maximise the time your fighters have to accelerate to chase us.<BR>
<BR>
> Questions:<BR>
> (1)  How effective is missile defense ?<BR>
><BR>
> Analysis:<BR>
> If missile defense is effective then huge numbers of missiles would be<BR>
needed to penetrate.<BR>
> Given the high cost of missiles it may be cost-prohibitive to take out a<BR>
capital ship with<BR>
> missiles.  One might send in laser-armed fighter escorts to neutralize the<BR>
anti-missile laser<BR>
> batteries, but my gut tells me this is not feasable.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The first problem is that our batteries are defended by enough armour to<BR>
block laser fire - by definition a 'real warship' has enough armour to stop<BR>
any laser of that TL. I'm not too proud to use laser bays for point defense<BR>
(FS' design philosophy is one very big gun for offense, and to support this<BR>
with smaller defensive weapons).<BR>
<BR>
The second problem is that the natural weapon to use against fighters is<BR>
missiles - very few fighters mount nuke dampers. Thus, if missiles are<BR>
effective, then missile-armed fighters will not be effective, because<BR>
missiles will kill them.<BR>
<BR>
The third problem is that once your fighters get within the range of our<BR>
laser batteries, it is d-a-y-e-d.<BR>
<BR>
On the general issue of missile defense, I think a layered defense is pretty<BR>
effective.<BR>
<BR>
> If missile defense is less than effective then naval battles will become<BR>
carrier battles.  This<BR>
> outcome will also be the case if it is possible to neutralize anti-missile<BR>
laser batteries.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Sure it's possible to neutralise the anti-missile laser batteries. Hit the<BR>
ship holding them with a big PAW.<BR>
<BR>
> Has this issue been addressed before ?<BR>
<BR>
I think we're on the third or fourth go around :)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:41:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
> Not to argue in favor of land mines, but the above discounts the fact that<BR>
> modern mines often have a limited life span by design, and are rendered<BR>
> inert after a certain period of time has elapsed, thus negating the<BR>
argument<BR>
> that they are a hazard far into the future.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Would you play a round of golf or five on a course that was seeded with '1<BR>
year mines' five years ago ? Would you let your kids play in a park that had<BR>
them seeded ten years ago ?<BR>
<BR>
> The issue really is that mines are so terribly useful, both for area<BR>
denial<BR>
> and as a force multiplier.  The US employment of mines in Korea is a good<BR>
> example.  They provide a highly cost effective deterrent to any southward<BR>
> movement by North Korean forces.<BR>
<BR>
So are poison gas, dum-dum bullets and so on (and, please, I dont want to<BR>
get into the "just following orders" weasels in the US DoD legal department<BR>
etc who argue that self-fragmenting bullets that have similar effects to<BR>
dum-dums are within the various conventions ...).<BR>
<BR>
> In the Imperium, one can imagine the use of non-persistant mine fields for<BR>
> tactical operations.  These would be composed of simple mines who's<BR>
> explosive component breaks down and becomes inert after a certain period<BR>
of<BR>
> time (a week, month, whatever).  The Imperium would certainly have an<BR>
> interest in limiting the active life of such mines to perhaps 30 days, but<BR>
> other than that, there is no reason to limit their use.  Is having a leg<BR>
> blown off by a mine really any more horrific than losing the same leg to<BR>
an<BR>
> artillery shell?<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that the artillery usually stops shooting at the end of the<BR>
war, and the mines are still there.<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Milibots (long)<BR>
><BR>
> I think that this whole milbot thing is off in the wrong direction. The<BR>
idea<BR>
> shouldn't be to use milbots as one for one replacements for sophont<BR>
> soldiers. The idea should be to make individual milbots more effective<BR>
than<BR>
> individual soldiers. Don't play the intuitive and creativity game because<BR>
> only a sophont robot can win that. Instead if you're fielding milbots make<BR>
> the enemy play to your strengths. Which are...?<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Mobility-if you're talking grav technology higher speed. With sonar or<BR>
> radar or ladar a robot should be able to move NOE much faster than an<BR>
> unaugmented human. And the robot should be able to carry a higher load.<BR>
And<BR>
> there is no need to sleep, carry food, etc. Endurance is a factor of the<BR>
> kind of power source. Fusion last forever as far as this kind of use goes.<BR>
> Energy cells mean that your robot has a definite mission duration limit,<BR>
> which may be extended with solar augmentation or other recharge options.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, it does need more maintainence, and fusion power plants<BR>
are expensive.<BR>
<BR>
> 2. Firepower - the higher load carrying capacity of the robot should be<BR>
used<BR>
> to field heavier weapons. The no artillery support should be superfluous.<BR>
A<BR>
> milrobot should be its own artillery support. So you don't let a squad of<BR>
> sophonts sucker you into trading shots. You locate them and hit them with<BR>
> heavy weapons from outside their weapon range.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Me, I'd argue that if you go down the Grav road, then the 'grav sled' to<BR>
carry the heavy weapons should help the PBI. And it has the advantage that<BR>
when not in use it can be powered down to reduce signature.<BR>
<BR>
> 3. Tactics - You limit the option needed for the mission. If the mission<BR>
is<BR>
> find the enemy and kill it, what's the problem? You send a bird size<BR>
flying<BR>
> eye through the jungle in the example. When it sees the enemy the full<BR>
size<BR>
> milbots carpet bomb the area with anti-personnel weapons and it's over.<BR>
Why<BR>
> would anyone want to build an expensive warbot and then arm it with the<BR>
> weapons a living soldier would carry? Use specialized models for recon,<BR>
> assault, support. Remember the idea isn't to have a fair fight. It's to<BR>
win.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
My suspicion is that with CE suits, combat armour and so on, the style of<BR>
warfare will change. I suspect that 'infantry' will either be lightly armed<BR>
Forward Observer types (contact the enemy, then call for help from the grav<BR>
tanks), or will have organic heavy weapons (the Rappoteur was an example<BR>
from FS - a man-portable 4 MJ emplaced plasma bazooka).<BR>
<BR>
The other trick is to dig in, and put thick armour sheeting over the<BR>
foxhole - thick enough to bounce cluster bomblets of that TL. You snipe the<BR>
bird with a laser, and then wait out the bombardment.<BR>
<BR>
Also remember that artillery fire reveals the position of the artillery,<BR>
which could then be vulnerable to counter-battery fire or assault by grav<BR>
tanks.<BR>
<BR>
> 4. Armor - It goes without saying that these things should be heavily<BR>
> armored. Small arms should be no threat. If the enemy troops have<BR>
anti-armor<BR>
> weapons then you'll lose some robots, but they'd only be vulnerable if the<BR>
> living soldiers saw them first. If the robots see the fire team first they<BR>
> just make sure everything in the target area dies.<BR>
><BR>
> Don't think The Phantom Menace here, think Terminator.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Build em under FFS2. Plug in some reasonable numbers for robot brains.<BR>
<BR>
Now see if they cost less than a tank. In fact, see if you can take that<BR>
hull and put a driver and a commander into it without too much loss of<BR>
efficiency (while taking up about 3.5 m3 each, people are light at about 300<BR>
kilos each, including workstation).<BR>
<BR>
They are also going to have one hell of a signature, and Gods Own Gift to<BR>
defenders (the AT weapon of whatever kind linked to a camera, with a wire to<BR>
the operator behind a hill) will cause your robot tankettes problems.<BR>
<BR>
> Remember both the Hivers and the Zho use warbots. Both still have sophont<BR>
> soldiers. So obviously there's a place for both in your battle plan.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
One of the issues is 'How much does infantry cost, anyway ?'.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that many lo-tech poor worlds will export reasonably cheap<BR>
soldiers, in a similar way to the Ghurkas and, I guess, Appalachian<BR>
Mountains and Deep South exported soldiers for so long.<BR>
<BR>
Needless to say, they will probably be equipped to higher-tech standards,<BR>
and quite possibly get their support and maintainence elements from<BR>
higher-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
My guess is that for a years salary down, plus transport, plus pay per month<BR>
will get you a soldier. Assuming long service professionals cost KCr 20 a<BR>
year, and you have to ship them twelve parsecs at Cr 500 per parsec<BR>
(travelling third class - a half dton bunk ; see GT FT cargo rates, not the<BR>
FUBAR traditional ones), and the world you are hiring them from has a<BR>
currency that trades for half the value of yours, then I'd guess that the<BR>
soldier costs you KCr 20/2 + 0.5*6, or KCr 13, plus KCr 10 per year.<BR>
<BR>
Given that kit should cost about KCr 50 (CE suit, ACR, laser comm, bunch of<BR>
RAM grenades, their share of a very cheap grav APC), then a theoretical<BR>
warbot has to cost about this amount.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:58:30 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>Sure, talking heads and press releases were all saying that a ground war<BR>
wasn't on the agenda, back when genuine debate on that subject might have<BR>
frustrated the admins policy. But how many people with a clue really did<BR>
believe that? (I don't recall too many Army-types having an epiphany and<BR>
suggesting that their budgets be transferred to the All-Mighty Air Force<BR>
:> )<<BR>
<BR>
True, but then it gets over to my comment on the A-10 which the airforce<BR>
never wanted and adds in the unused AH-64 which they didn't want the army to<BR>
ever get.<BR>
<BR>
>It wouldn't be too cynical to suggest that the handling of the media<BR>
there might be a great model for those who aren't really into the Shiny<BR>
Happy Third Imperium schtick.<<BR>
<BR>
Let's not see who can be more cynical. I don't think anyone would survive<BR>
that. :-P<BR>
(Which means I agree again.)<BR>
<BR>
>I might too, but that appeared to be the formula determined by Bush and<BR>
his advisors - getting stuck in in Iraq affected none of Kuwait's freedom,<BR>
US oil, or his chances of re-election (in no particular order of priority).<<BR>
I'd go with the third as most important. Which would have been interesting<BR>
had he won and had to deal with the fallout from his own bad policy. Clinton<BR>
just gets to point at Bush and blame him.<BR>
Major ObTrav: The Solomani Rim.<BR>
"Let the idiot admiral who will probably assassinate me or my son deal with<BR>
them."<BR>
"Wait, the Zhodani just invaded. My grandson can take care of it."<BR>
"Ummm...ummmm.....damn...."<BR>
<BR>
>Luckily the Far Future (tm) won't have inter-service rivalries. Right?<BR>
After all, everyone _knows_ that only the Navy matters, and that if any<BR>
other _real_ services existed they'd only be necessary for policing...<BR>
                [this message brought to you by unwitting stooges of INI]<<BR>
<BR>
*snicker*<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:19:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/6/00 5:41 AM, katts@globalfreeway.com.au issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> organic heavy weapons (the Rappoteur was an example<BR>
> from FS - a man-portable 4 MJ emplaced plasma bazooka).<BR>
<BR>
What is the term "organic" indicating here?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:21:39 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Fwd: Re: TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM <BR>
<BR>
TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM<BR>
<BR>
An electronic gun with no mechanical parts fires a million rounds per<BR>
minute<BR>
<BR>
by Dan Drollette in Canberra, Australia <BR>
<BR>
"When you first hear of a gun without any moving mechanical parts, you<BR>
tend to laugh. I know I had to withhold my giggles," recalls physicist<BR>
Adam Drobot of Science<BR>
Applications International Corporation (SAIC), a company based in San<BR>
Diego that evaluates new technologies. "But once you see the videotape<BR>
of this test-firing, the<BR>
giggle factor goes away."<BR>
<BR>
The gun in question is something that even its inventor says comes out<BR>
of left field. Termed Metal Storm, the weapon has no hammer, no<BR>
trigger, no breechblock and no<BR>
shell casings to eject. Equally unusual, a single barrel fires at a<BR>
rate equivalent to one million rounds per minute. In comparison, the<BR>
fastest conventional firearms (Gatling<BR>
guns) fire only 6,000 rounds per minute.<BR>
<BR>
Metal Storm's origins are unorthodox as well. It was invented by former<BR>
grocery wholesaler Mike O'Dwyer, a lone Australian tinkerer with no<BR>
formal education in ballistics or<BR>
engineering. His previous patents are for devices such as air-cooled<BR>
sneakers. ("They pump air through as you jog," he explains.)<BR>
<BR>
Yet after 15 years of trial and error in his tropical Queensland home,<BR>
O'Dwyer came up with a gun prototype that recently fired 180 rounds of<BR>
nine-millimeter bullets in 0.01<BR>
second during a demonstration before military officials in Adelaide.<BR>
Metal Storm's bullets leave its barrel so quickly that they are only<BR>
microseconds apart--when one bullet<BR>
is flying through the air, the next is just 10 centimeters (four<BR>
inches) behind. For current machine guns, the gap between bullets is 30<BR>
meters.<BR>
<BR>
"It could replace our existing technology on the battlefield," says<BR>
Maj. David Goyne, a weapons specialist at Australian Defense<BR>
Headquarters. The gun is ideal for close-in<BR>
situations, such as defending ships against incoming missiles. Goyne<BR>
comments that it could also eliminate land mines in open areas such as<BR>
Kuwait's deserts: a<BR>
helicopter using the gun could hover above the sands and clear a<BR>
minefield by spraying it from a distance, exploding mines harmlessly.<BR>
<BR>
The gun works through a combination of specially designed bullets and<BR>
an electronic firing mechanism, which O'Dwyer describes as "a barrel<BR>
tube with an electrical wire<BR>
attached." Jacketless bullets are lined up inside, nose to tail, and<BR>
are separated from one another by a layer of propellant. When an<BR>
electric current makes its way down<BR>
the strip, the bullets are set off one by one. To stop them from going<BR>
off simultaneously--a problem previously encountered when putting many<BR>
bullets in a single<BR>
barrel--O'Dwyer designed the bullets to work together. The high<BR>
pressure caused by the firing of the first projectile makes the nose of<BR>
the next one in line swell against the<BR>
walls, temporarily sealing off the rest of the barrel. (In ballistics<BR>
terms, the nose of the second bullet effectively acts as a breechblock<BR>
to prevent an uncontrolled<BR>
sympathetic ignition.) After the first bullet exits, the pressure<BR>
drops, and the nose of the second one loosens up, enabling the bullet<BR>
to be fired. This process continues for<BR>
each successive bullet.<BR>
<BR>
Other than the projectiles themselves, there are no moving parts. To<BR>
get even more firepower, several loaded barrels can be set up side by<BR>
side. Once a barrel is used up, it<BR>
can be discarded or sent back to the factory for reloading.<BR>
<BR>
Variations of electrically fired weapons have been tried before. For<BR>
instance, Sandia National Laboratories developed an electromagnetic<BR>
coil gun designed to hurl<BR>
100-kilogram (220-pound) satellites into orbit. But a number of<BR>
differences separate the two approaches, observes Vinod Puri, senior<BR>
research scientist with the Australian<BR>
Defense Science and Technology Organization: "The electromagnetic coil<BR>
gun demands lots of energy, achieves high velocities and sends large<BR>
objects great distances. In<BR>
contrast, Metal Storm requires less energy, works at lower velocities,<BR>
uses normal gun propellant and sends out more, smaller projectiles per<BR>
minute for shorter distances."<BR>
<BR>
O'Dwyer points out another feature of guns like Metal Storm: because<BR>
electronics are such an integral part of their makeup, they offer a<BR>
good opportunity for built-in<BR>
electronic safeguards, such as security keypads. If an unauthorized<BR>
user tried to bypass the gun's security system by disabling the<BR>
electronics, the gun simply couldn't<BR>
fire. The device has many nonmilitary uses, too, Drobot notes. A slower<BR>
version could replace the nail guns used by carpenters and roofers and<BR>
may find a use in riveting<BR>
and other industrial applications.<BR>
<BR>
Goyne remarks that the technology still needs fine-tuning--it fires<BR>
relatively small caliber bullets, for example. But physicists such as<BR>
Puri say its basic design is "very<BR>
solid." The Australian Trade Commission is promoting the weapon, which<BR>
has attracted attention in Australia and Britain.<BR>
<BR>
In the U.S., General Dynamics has tested it, and SAIC has been<BR>
contracted to help develop it further. A. Fenner Milton, previously in<BR>
charge of weapons acquisition for the<BR>
U.S. Army and now running the army's night-vision lab, attended a<BR>
test-firing of a Metal Storm prototype in Australia last year. "In my<BR>
opinion, Metal Storm represents a<BR>
truly innovative approach to lethality, that if further developed has<BR>
great potential for defensive weapon systems that can take advantage of<BR>
its extraordinarily high burst rate<BR>
of fire," an impressed Milton says.<BR>
<BR>
What seems to surprise most experts about the technology is its source.<BR>
"It sometimes takes someone who isn't very conventional to come up with<BR>
new ideas," Drobot<BR>
observes. "My amazement is at the process--O'Dwyer didn't blow up a<BR>
barrel or kill himself while making it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2560<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:23:49 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:23:26 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA52409;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:22:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:22:15 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA52367<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:22:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:22:15 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006061722.NAA52367@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2560<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2561</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 1:53:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2561<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Striker at Kristian Miller's starting 17 June 2000<BR>
It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
re: OT: Bragging<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:29:13 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
I am in the process of trying to do something foolish.  I am trying to<BR>
design a streamlined shuttle for a Tech Level 9 exploration vessel,<BR>
*without* using any of that convenient gravitic technology.  The exhaust<BR>
produced by the fusion rocket is prohibitively dirty, and since we're<BR>
talking about Tech Level 9, fusion reactors are far too bulky, and clean<BR>
HEPlaR drives haven't even been invented yet.  Am I correct in thinking<BR>
that I should design this shuttle with a hypersonic airframe hull, and a<BR>
"three-fold" propulsion system (air-breathing engines for flying at low<BR>
altitudes, "primitive" rockets for orbital insertion, and a nuclear<BR>
fission rocket for operating in space)?  Would it be *totally*<BR>
unreasonable to try to make it capable of vertical take-offs and landings,<BR>
too?  Long paved runways are few and far between, out where "no man has<BR>
gone before," after all.  I thought of trying to design it as a<BR>
*seaplane* (since convenient patches of open water aren't *that* rare),<BR>
but I suspect that by the time I finish cramming its hull with chunky,<BR>
clunky, Tech Level 9 hardware, it will end up sinking like a stone...<BR>
Any thoughts or suggestions?<BR>
                                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Striker at Kristian Miller's starting 17 June 2000<BR>
<BR>
We'll be playing Striker at Kristian Miller's starting on<BR>
Saturday 17 June 2000 at 1100.  <BR>
<BR>
If you are planning to play Striker with us, please send me<BR>
an inventory of your miniatures, so that I can prepare<BR>
tables of organization.  The inventory will also help us<BR>
develop scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
The inventory should include the following information:<BR>
<BR>
scale (preferably a ratio, like 1:72)<BR>
tech level<BR>
historical period, if applicable<BR>
numbers and types of vehicles<BR>
numbers and types of crew-served weapons<BR>
numbers and types of personnel<BR>
number of personnel per stand, as applicable<BR>
general information on appearance (color, camouflage<BR>
pattern, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
For example, I might bring the following:<BR>
<BR>
US Marines WWII Pacific<BR>
scale:  1:76 (HO)<BR>
tech level:  6<BR>
WWII<BR>
rubber rafts, 2<BR>
jeeps, 2 (1 driver each)<BR>
light machine gun, 1 (crew: 2)<BR>
bazooka, 1 (crew: 2)<BR>
mortar, 2 (crew: 3)<BR>
infantry, rifles, 30 (not on stands)<BR>
infantry, submachine guns, 4 (not on stands)<BR>
infantry, pistol, 2 (not on stands)<BR>
green/brown splotchy camouflage<BR>
<BR>
UK Special Air Service<BR>
scale: 1:32<BR>
tech level: 8<BR>
1980s<BR>
no vehicles<BR>
no crew served weapons<BR>
infantry, submachine guns, 20<BR>
infantry, grenade launchers, 2<BR>
infantry, assault rifles, 4<BR>
infantry, automatic pistols, 4<BR>
black/gray night/urban camouflage<BR>
<BR>
Grav vehicles<BR>
scale:  1:300<BR>
tech level:  9+<BR>
grav tanks, 8<BR>
grav carriers, 8<BR>
light grav vehicles, 2<BR>
gray splotchy camouflage<BR>
<BR>
We probably wouldn't use all three sets in one game, but<BR>
all are offered for use.  I would then see what other<BR>
people offer and try to set up a scenario with same scale<BR>
miniatures.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:52:44 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
>Walt Smith wrote, <BR>
>>The cold war was insane.  The stupidest thing we Americans could <BR>
>>have possibly taken part in.  The only thing more stupid would have <BR>
>>been for us not to take part.< <BR>
><BR>
>And the smarter thing would have been to fight it another way. <BR>
<BR>
You're the expert on (20/20 hindsight) strategic thinking.  How would<BR>
you have (assuming you would have) challenged the foriegn policies of<BR>
the post WW2 Soviet bloc and Communist China, if you were in charge of <BR>
American (and by extension, western) military and political operations?<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and you need to limit yourself to the knowledge available to the<BR>
US President and Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time.<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 again:<BR>
>Actually you couldn't win your on facts so you kept trying to come up <BR>
>with new and creative excuses. <BR>
<BR>
New and creative attempts to explain facts to you, each unable to<BR>
penetrate your protective shield of opinions.<BR>
<BR>
You condemn people making decisions based on information they had,<BR>
rather than information you read in a history book decades later.<BR>
You condemn them for using the tools they had, rather than the tools<BR>
you think they should have had.  Further, your ideas about how such<BR>
tools are chosen and obtained is more akin to a game of Axis & Allies<BR>
than anything in the real world.  You then call them fools for using<BR>
the tools and training they had in the way they best saw fit, rather<BR>
than using these tools for tasks you think they'd be better at, <BR>
regardless of your lack of knowledge in this regard.<BR>
<BR>
Morality is a personal thing, for the most part.  But with the above<BR>
evidence of your capabilities, do you see how reluctant I am to give<BR>
you credence in any subject, including insights on morality?<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 again:<BR>
>Further, since this started with morality its obvious you meant to <BR>
>concede from the beginning. <BR>
<BR>
See above.  I started in with effectiveness.  If morality is so much<BR>
your strong suit, I am *very* happy that you are not charged with <BR>
defending my life, home and children from an enemy.  People who want to <BR>
be moral shouldn't start wars in the first place, and have no standing<BR>
to beg the morality of those who finish them.<BR>
<BR>
I "concede" that we are in a match of opposing opinions.  Some people<BR>
have mined ObTravs from it, but IMO they've been few and far between<BR>
compared to the signal.  If you wish to continue this, my email address<BR>
is smithw@hartwick.edu.<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 again:<BR>
>It doesn't help to win the war if you lose your humanity. <BR>
<BR>
You have the luxury of saying that because your society has yet to<BR>
lose one*.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
*Lose.  As in, "cities burning, children slaughtered" lose...not<BR>
"gave up, went home" lose.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------<BR>
On this anniversary of the D-Day landings, I would like to thank<BR>
those who have risked all, and those who have given all, to keep<BR>
such disasters away from me and mine.  To all those who wish to<BR>
distill American military history down to Wounded Knee, Dresden, <BR>
My Lai, and Nogun-ri: There are recruitment centers nationwide, you<BR>
are welcome to join up and make the services better by your<BR>
participation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:11:25 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> organic heavy weapons (the Rappoteur was an example <BR>
>> from FS - a man-portable 4 MJ emplaced plasma bazooka). <BR>
><BR>
> What is the term "organic" indicating here? <BR>
<BR>
"Organic" means the weapon team is a usual part of the larger<BR>
unit it is serving with, rather than being temporarily added on<BR>
for a particular operation.  Organic units tend to be better<BR>
integrated into the battle plans and other operations of the larger<BR>
unit, since the larger unit commanders are used to having them around.<BR>
<BR>
The opposite of "organic" is "attached" - an attached unit is<BR>
working with a larger unit on a temporary basis.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:26:01 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote, <BR>
<BR>
"On this anniversary of the D-Day landings, I would like to thank those who have risked all, and those who have given all, to keep such disasters away from me and mine.  To all those who wish to distill American military history down to Wounded Knee, Dresden, My Lai, and Nogun-ri: There are recruitment centers nationwide, you are welcome to join up and make the services better by your participation."<BR>
<BR>
Well said, Walt.  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:14:28 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com> wrote,<BR>
>And, if I may say so, there are some TMLers who don't have<BR>
>a corp backing them that SHOULD have one... and so a new<BR>
>twist: these guys should either invent ones, or be 'hired' <BR>
>by the existing ones.<BR>
<BR>
We don't need no steenking corps! The One True Traveller Way is to be<BR>
stuck in some dingy startown bar, unemployed and looking to raise enough<BR>
funds to get offworld (or at least to buy another drink)... 8-P<BR>
<BR>
>Finally, this is a good way to test and refine the Universal <BR>
>Corporate Profile (UCP), which is located at<BR>
><BR>
>   http://members.home.net/eaglestone/UCP.html<BR>
<BR>
This is of particular interest to me since I have been writing _101<BR>
Corporations_ for BITS (and am continuing to do so, parenthood<BR>
notwithstanding). I will talk to Andy about the possibility of including<BR>
TML-generated corps (where would the book be without FS, Gridlore, X-Tek<BR>
et al?), but please don't send any yet - this isn't an "open" project<BR>
like _101 Religions_.<BR>
<BR>
I am currently using a variant of Rob's UCP (with Rob and Andrew's<BR>
permission). I was planning on accounting for the differences using the<BR>
following introductory text:<BR>
<BR>
"Developed by the Imperial Ship Builders Association (ISBA), the<BR>
Universal Corporate Profile is a method of describing companies and<BR>
other corporate entities. In its original form it comprised a string of<BR>
hexadecimal digits similar to the Universal World Profiles published by<BR>
the IISS; this has become the de facto standard for information transfer<BR>
between business directories across the Imperium. However, several<BR>
companies found a need to make the information directly available to<BR>
Imperial citizens and devised schemes to present the information in a<BR>
more legible fashion. The version used here was developed by Bank<BR>
Janus."<BR>
<BR>
However, if the list can reach some consensus I'm happy to declare the<BR>
human-readable version standardised!<BR>
<BR>
Some issues (a few of which I have discussed with Rob before):<BR>
<BR>
DICE ROLLS:<BR>
Several entries mention dice rolls but give few details. It makes a big<BR>
difference whether the rolls are 2D or 3D, for example! [Rob, which is<BR>
it?]<BR>
<BR>
RANGE:<BR>
Although Rob's scheme has a set of nice mathematical progressions (based<BR>
on three Solomani units of measurement) IMO it offers too much detail<BR>
between the global and stellar system levels and not enough further out.<BR>
It also doesn't match particularly well with Imperial astrography. I<BR>
propose the following modified scheme:<BR>
<BR>
        0. Village<BR>
        1. Town<BR>
        2. City<BR>
        3. Province<BR>
        4. Continental<BR>
        5. Global<BR>
        6. Orbital/Moons<BR>
        7. Neighbouring planets<BR>
        8. System-wide<BR>
        9. Multisystem / Cluster<BR>
        A. Single Subsector<BR>
        B. Multi Subsector<BR>
        C. Sector<BR>
        D. Multi Sector<BR>
        E. Imperial<BR>
        F. Trans-Imperial<BR>
<BR>
INFLUENCE:<BR>
Influence "uses the same table as the Range digit". This seems to be<BR>
meaningless and should be removed; if it isn't, it should be explained.<BR>
<BR>
PUBLIC IMAGE:<BR>
This says that it corresponds to Traveller's reaction roll, and that you<BR>
should "roll this number or less each week to have some kind of negative <BR>
publicity". Shouldn't this be "roll this number or less to *avoid*<BR>
negative publicity"? I also think per week is too frequent, as most<BR>
companies would have to be rated F - perhaps per month?<BR>
<BR>
R&D:<BR>
Maybe use percentage of turnover, since a company can be furiously<BR>
investing in R&D while making a loss. Also, R&D percentages can get<BR>
larger than 15%; how about a scale changing to 5% at A and continuing<BR>
above F:<BR>
<BR>
        0. 0%     1. 1%     2. 2%     3. 3%     4. 4%<BR>
        5. 5%     6. 6%     7. 7%     8. 8%     9. 9%<BR>
        A. 10%    B. 15%    C. 20%    D. 25%    E. 30%<BR>
        F. 35%    G. 40%    H. 45%    J. 50%    K. 55%<BR>
<BR>
NATURE:<BR>
Andrew's version broke down Publicly Listed Companies into three<BR>
categories based on the division of shares. I have adopted this since<BR>
this is a common type:<BR>
<BR>
        PubS  Publicly listed company (single dominant shareholder)<BR>
        PubL  Publicly listed company (limited shareholder base)<BR>
        PubW  Publicly listed company (wide shareholder base)<BR>
<BR>
[As an aside, Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
 >One area not well developed in the corporate profile is<BR>
 >ownership.  "Nature" touches on that, but I would want to<BR>
 >know who owns how much.<BR>
<BR>
 The above should help a bit with that. Andy has suggested that I<BR>
 include share information in the text description for each company<BR>
 (where applicable), but we haven't decided yet what to do about the<BR>
 fact that this information will be Milieu-specific...]<BR>
<BR>
Wholly Owned Subsidiary is new, isn't it? I like.<BR>
<BR>
TRADITION:<BR>
"This measures the degree of power needed (or the roll required) to<BR>
implement any changes whatsoever into the corporate style". Rolling<BR>
high, or low? See discussion under "Corporate Politics", below.<BR>
<BR>
CORPORATE POLITICS:<BR>
"This measures the degree of power necessary (or the roll required) to<BR>
make decisions which affect the company". Is this rolling high, or low?<BR>
From the description I would have guessed it meant "minimum roll<BR>
required", except that the example says a Politics score of 0<BR>
corresponds to power being entrenched at the top, implying a high power<BR>
requirement to make decisions that affect the company.<BR>
<BR>
NATIONALITY:<BR>
I added "This is the standard two letter allegiance code" at the front.<BR>
I'm unclear on when to use the race codes - presumably I use Im for any<BR>
Imperial corporation even if it is Vilani in origin?<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:57:15 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
>I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science Fiction<BR>
>convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in the<BR>
>short story competition.<BR>
>I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations! I still remember the buzz I got when I saw my name <BR>
on 101 Lifeforms.<BR>
<BR>
>For those that are interested, I also got to prop up the bar with Sean<BR>
>McMullen (an Aussie writer) and Tad Wiliams ( "Tailchaser's Song", "Memory,<BR>
>Sorrow & Thorn"; & "OtherLand").<BR>
<BR>
Shame you couldn't persuade Mr Williams to hurry up with the Third <BR>
book in the OtherLand sequence. I haven't been so annoyed in a long <BR>
time as when I got to the end of the first one and realised it was <BR>
part of a trilogy. A good book, none-the-less, I just have an inbuilt <BR>
dislike of trilogies.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:52:33 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
At 13:22 -0400 6/6/00, "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>Major ObTrav: The Solomani Rim.<BR>
>"Let the idiot admiral who will probably assassinate me or my son deal with<BR>
>them."<BR>
>"Wait, the Zhodani just invaded. My grandson can take care of it."<BR>
>"Ummm...ummmm.....damn...."<BR>
<BR>
Gosh, you mean the Zhodani have gone all the way through Deneb, Vland <BR>
and the Core, and hit the Rim from behind? Or did they fight their <BR>
way around Deneb, across the Rift and through the Hierate?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:41:23 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net> wrote:<BR>
>I'd say I have about 10 minites owed to me.  IG, CORE, and BITS only gave<BR>
>me 5 so far.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Well, I've had a thought. I have a backburner project working in <BR>
M0 for a subsector in Dag for BITS. Now, there will be library data <BR>
in that, so if people wanted to submit say a short paragraph on a <BR>
company like the old CT/MT writeups this could possibly go in the <BR>
data section, or alternatively into the sources for adventure ideas <BR>
there (eg a company sponsoring a mission).<BR>
<BR>
What do you think?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:26:45 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
>  While rationalization of varieties was a big part of Speers reforms,<BR>
>expansion of production was the main contributor to increased output.<BR>
<BR>
Speer was key in switching the economy to a war footing. If only I <BR>
could remember the name/title of the bio I read recently.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:24:19 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
>  It's worth considering that the RAF could reasonably conclude that i)<BR>
>that's how the Germans want to play, fine, and ii) we've got the weapons<BR>
>to do it _right_. Barring unlikely precision (if daylight low-level raids<BR>
>by Mosquito's were common, then they'd quickly become suicide...) the<BR>
>issue - even in daylight bombing - is one of bomb-load, and the British<BR>
>aviation industry was well-suited to putting up craft that would carry<BR>
>impressive loads to any target in Greater Germany.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR That the Mosquito carried as big a bomb load as the B17 Flying Fortress?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:21:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> > "No, there is no problem with our target identification systems.  Those<BR>
> > soldiers who you see scrambling out of the APC that one of our Apache's<BR>
> > just fired at are _not_ British."<BR>
>A small mistake.  The gunner thought they were Australian.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR that the two Warrior APCs were taken out by A10s?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:19:24 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>Bah, let them go be fighter jocks like they all wanted to be in the first<BR>
>place. Or transport crews if they were planning on a civilian aeronautics<BR>
>career. As for the Air Force Pentagon brass...I won't even try posting a<BR>
>clean version for what they can do in public.<BR>
>:)<BR>
<BR>
I've been away for over 10 days and you're still at this one?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:16:11 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: The Good ol' Days of the TML<BR>
<BR>
At 0:40 -0400 6/6/00, Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Those were the days, eh?<BR>
<BR>
Yup. Will we see their like again? <Maybe when T5 finally comes out><BR>
<BR>
>I got involved with so many names in the game and eventually my dream of<BR>
>actually having freelance work became a reality.  It was one of the best<BR>
>days in my life to see my name in a book.  You will remember that I even<BR>
>did some write ups for 101 Religions.  I was having more fun online than<BR>
>I was in FTF gaming! That was very satisfying, but...<BR>
<BR>
Yes... The name's in 101 Religions Cdr X..... Those were the days I <BR>
could post what I wanted without being the 'voice of BITS' ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>I may not have the time I had back in 95/96 but dangit I am<BR>
>having my fun again! I love seeing Spofulam, X-TEK and Gridlore<BR>
>mentioned in the artwork. We have survived and returned!<BR>
<BR>
So true - Gridlore and Spofulam made the pages of ACQ too...<BR>
<BR>
>I always believed that Traveller is all about the spirit of the game.<BR>
>Systems come and go, but the spirit of the game lives on in every<BR>
>player.  It's up to us to keep that spirit alive.  "Keep the Flame" is<BR>
>more than just a Regency slogan to me! :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes - the background counts more to me.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:59:57 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
At 19:22 -0400 5/6/00, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
>There are also some big civilizations on the edges of the<BR>
>Imperium, and canonically, some of these guys don't play "fair". The Zhodani<BR>
>and Hivers are both known to design warbots.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium uses laser armed robots for security in its research <BR>
stations. 'Programming instructs the the robot to choose the target <BR>
posing the greatest threat to itself and fire until that target is <BR>
destroyed'.<BR>
<BR>
'Research Station Gamma'<BR>
<BR>
>What's the point at which a missile becomes a robot?<BR>
<BR>
Iain Bank's Knife Missiles?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:35:10 -0500 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
>well, the T4 combat rules were very weak, which is why James Lindsay and I<BR>
>wrote At Close Quarters.<BR>
>http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of which...<BR>
	The UPS man visited me before I left for work and brought me my brand-spanking-new copy of ACQ.<BR>
<BR>
	My 10 minute browse impression was favorable.  Each chapter appears very well done with clear text and nice layout.  The prose is simple and to the point, with numerous examples punctuating each section.  (It does seem as if many TMLers were damage during these examples.  I hope everyone has healed from the playtesting).  there is an 8 page quick-reference pullout section with all the tables you need to play (can we have permission to photocopy these sheets for personal use during our ACQ games?)<BR>
<BR>
	With a longer read through, my opinion of ACQ just got better.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
An overview of each Chapter:<BR>
<BR>
	Introduction (2 pages)<BR>
		An into to the book, and an explanation of the BITS task system - the core of the ACQ rules.  All tasks are written using this task system.  this allows one to covert the rules to any version of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
	Overview (3 pages)<BR>
		Each combatant has a number of Action Points equal to his DEX+INT+Tactics skill level.  APs are spent to perform actions such as movement, aiming, attacks, etc.<BR>
		Also details the structure of the 6 second combat round and how to determine who acts first (the Combat Initiative Ladder).  Includes rules to handle Long Term Actions that take more than one round to complete.<BR>
<BR>
	Action vs Reaction (2 pages)<BR>
		How to interrupt the action of someone else to get the first strike in.  Similar to the 'Interrupt' in MT, but very well explained with great examples.<BR>
<BR>
	Movement (6 pages)<BR>
		A Snapshot or AHL like system for spending APs for movement distances.  Includes swimming and vehicle movement rules.<BR>
<BR>
	Melee Combat (2 pages)<BR>
		ACG models melee as opposed task rolls between the attacker and defender.  Both make task rolls (the defender can block or dodge), with the success or failure of each determining one of four results - miss, blocked or dodged, successful attack, or missed and defender counterattack.  A nice, clean system.  The use of extra APs to increase your chance to attack or defend is a nice touch that is carried through the system.<BR>
<BR>
	Ranged Combat (9 pages)<BR>
		Wow.  As a gun bunny, I *really* like this section.  Rules for Suppression Fire, simple Autofire rules, aimed and quick shots.  Note that there are die mods and difficulty level mods, but they are cleanly labeled (no '-1 die mod' or '-1 diff level' confusion here).  There are quite a number of mods, but each type of situation is well defined and self-contained, so for any one combatant, most of the mods do not apply.<BR>
<BR>
	Damage and its Effects (8 pages)<BR>
		The part of ACQ that is most useful outside of combat situations.  Rules for weapon damage, continuing damage, and rules for stabilizing wounds and recovery.  Damage is in the CT style (dice of damage taken off of stats) with descriptions of each would level (one characteristic at 0, two at 0, all three at 0) as well as rules for stun damage and blunt trauma for damage that doesn't penetrate your armour.  The recovery rules will be very useful to any campaign where the characters are likely to get hurt.<BR>
<BR>
	Other Consideration (7 pages)<BR>
		Little things not talked about in the main rules - such as Airlocks, Aliens (including Aslan dewclaw and Vargr kicking).  Also morale, NPCs, and movement and combat in Zero-G and more are explained.<BR>
<BR>
	Armoury (7 pages)<BR>
		A metric sh*tload of weapons and armour taken from the T4 rulebook, CSC, and EA.  More than enough to run a combat without referring to any other Traveller book - including *two* different types of penguins!<BR>
<BR>
	A self-contained close-combat game in one book that can be dropped into any Traveller campaign or played alone (ACQ:Space Hulk, anyone?).  If you liked Snapshot or AHL, this is a definite buy.<BR>
<BR>
5 out of 5 starbursts.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:47:57 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
> >  It's worth considering that the RAF could reasonably conclude that i)<BR>
> >that's how the Germans want to play, fine, and ii) we've got the weapons<BR>
> >to do it _right_. Barring unlikely precision (if daylight low-level raids<BR>
> >by Mosquito's were common, then they'd quickly become suicide...) the<BR>
> >issue - even in daylight bombing - is one of bomb-load, and the British<BR>
> >aviation industry was well-suited to putting up craft that would carry<BR>
> >impressive loads to any target in Greater Germany.<BR>
<BR>
And the German aviation industry was well-suited to knocking<BR>
down the slow, vulnerable, lightly armored and poorly armed<BR>
"Dicken Hunde" (Fat Dogs) even more impressively.<BR>
<BR>
The Mosquito bomber had NO guns on it.  Spitfires and<BR>
Hurricane's didn't have the fuel range to protect bombers<BR>
over Greater Germany.  The English bombers could<BR>
barely protect themselves.  There is a reason they<BR>
preferred flying at night.<BR>
<BR>
> ISTR That the Mosquito carried as big a bomb load as the B17 Flying Fortress?<BR>
<BR>
Not even close.<BR>
<BR>
Mossie:  2,000lbs. (4 x 500lb)  (A lot of US fighters could carry that much)<BR>
B25:  3,000lbs (6 x 500lb)<BR>
B17:  6,000lbs  (12x  500lb)<BR>
B24:  8,800lbs (didn't carry 500lbers, generally)<BR>
B29:  20,000lbs (40 x 500lb)<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps you're thinking of the Lancaster.  .<BR>
<BR>
The Lancaster:<BR>
Service ceiling:  24,671 ft<BR>
Max Speed: 286 mph<BR>
Range:  2,527 miles<BR>
Armament: 8 x .303 machine guns.<BR>
Bombload: 14,000lbs (8,000 in 1941 then up from there, eventually<BR>
to 22,000 in a modified plane)<BR>
<BR>
The B17 (Models F and G)<BR>
Service ceiling:  35,000 (G) -38,000 feet (F)<BR>
Max Speed: 300 (G) - 325 mph (F)<BR>
Range: 2,420 (F), 3,750 miles (G)<BR>
Armament:  8-11 x .50 cal. (F), 11/13 .50 cal (G); 1 x .30 cal (both)<BR>
Bombload:  6,000lbs.<BR>
<BR>
Given the performance of Me109s and 190s at high altitude,<BR>
I'll take the B17 every time.  Its goes higher, faster, farther<BR>
and its tougher.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I'm going back to ignoring this thread.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:48:58 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
>ISTR That the Mosquito carried as big a bomb load as the B17 Flying <BR>
>Fortress? <BR>
<BR>
You may be thinking of later planes like Vietnam war era<BR>
fighter-bombers like the F-4E Phantom II (about 7000kg). A deHaviland <BR>
Mosquito carried about 1000-1800kg of bombs, a Boeing B-17 had a maximum <BR>
load of about 8000kg.  The Mosquito's bomb load was comparable to other <BR>
Allied fighter-bombers, such as the P-38 Lightning (about 1400kg), and <BR>
even in the same range as the B-25J Mitchell medium bomber (about 1400kg <BR>
as well).<BR>
<BR>
The Mosquito's biggest advantage was it's speed.  No German<BR>
night-fighter of the war could catch it, and few daytime fighters<BR>
were fast enough to engage it either.  Even the fastest German<BR>
fighters seldom had enough time to get to intercept positions before<BR>
the Mosquito would be done with it's mission and on the way home.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: When designing those starships, pick something for them<BR>
to be really, really good at. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2561<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:53:58 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:53:38 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA60946;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:52:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:52:16 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA60903<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:52:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:52:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006062052.QAA60903@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2561<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2562</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 3:07:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2562<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
RE: Brief Rant<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
re:At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
[BITS] 101 Patrons and ACQ available now!<BR>
Mossie details (OT)<BR>
Striker at Kristian Miller's <BR>
OT: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was  Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
OT on the TML, with another apology<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:55:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> ISTR That the Mosquito carried as big a bomb load as the B17<BR>
> Flying Fortress?<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
The Mosquito typically carried a 2000 lbs bomb load, though a variation with<BR>
a bulged bomb bay was capable of carrying a 4000 lbs load.  B-17 utilized<BR>
over Europe typically carried a light bomb load for maximum range and<BR>
performance, about the same as the Mosquito.  However the B-17D model could<BR>
carry 4800 lbs, and the B-17G could carry a full 17,600lbs bomb load, all in<BR>
addition to no less than 13 .50 caliber machineguns.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:11:16 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>The Mosquito bomber had NO guns on it.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on the mission.  The Mosquito Fighters and Fighter-Bombers<BR>
had up to a quad machine gun *and* quad 20mm cannon in the nose.<BR>
Very handy for a night fighter that might only be able to keep <BR>
nose on target for a moment, or for a tactical aircraft trying to rip <BR>
apart something on the ground.<BR>
<BR>
The unarmed ones were unarmed for a reason...speed.  If you can't<BR>
catch it, you can't kill it.  Generally speaking, the Germans couldn't<BR>
catch them.  That was fine with the Mosquito crews, it wasn't their<BR>
job to stay and fight with the Luftwaffe.<BR>
<BR>
> Given the performance of Me109s and 190s at high altitude, <BR>
> I'll take the B17 every time.  Its goes higher, faster, farther <BR>
> and its tougher. <BR>
<BR>
23 enemy aircraft kills per thousand missions for B-17's, compared<BR>
to 11 average per thousand missions for all other bombers...of course,<BR>
part of that is the comparative number of "target-rich" environments<BR>
the B-17 gunners found themselves in.  <BR>
<BR>
ISTR that the Brits did some experiments with ultra-high-altitude<BR>
bombing early in the war.  Flew a few bombers so high that nothing could <BR>
hurt them, but operational range was too short and their bomb sights<BR>
were nowhere near accurate enough to make it worthwhile.<BR>
<BR>
I was very impressed by the British Dam Buster operations, and <BR>
surprised that the tactic wasn't repeated - if not against dams,<BR>
then against the hard-to-hurt U-Boat pens.  The mission had harsh<BR>
casualties, but it was a first use of the tactic.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:18:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brief Rant<BR>
<BR>
>   Whoa - he specified _the US administration_, bashing of whom is a Yank<BR>
> job anyway; it's hardly his fault if you guys are slacking.<BR>
><BR>
>   Hmm, maybe this ties in with the target ID'ing problems? :><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You must have missed the part about "America, 280,000,000 lemmings marching<BR>
in lockstep".<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:19:55 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
>From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>I am currently using a variant of Rob's UCP (with Rob and <BR>
>Andrew'spermission). I was planning on accounting for the <BR>
>differences using the following introductory text:<BR>
><BR>
>"Developed by the Imperial Ship Builders Association <BR>
>(ISBA), the Universal Corporate Profile is a method of <BR>
>describing companies and other corporate entities. In its <BR>
>original form it comprised a string of hexadecimal digits <BR>
>similar to the Universal World Profiles published by the<BR>
>IISS; this has become the de facto standard for <BR>
>information transfer between business directories across <BR>
>the Imperium. However, several companies found a need to <BR>
>make the information directly available to Imperial <BR>
>citizens and devised schemes to present the information in<BR>
<BR>
>a more legible fashion. The version used here was <BR>
>developed by BankJanus."<BR>
<BR>
In the United States, publicly held corporations must file<BR>
certain documents with the Securities Exchange Commission,<BR>
such as the Annual Report on Form 10-K.  The function of<BR>
these documents is to provide financial disclosure to<BR>
investors and potential investors about the company's<BR>
operations, results, and risks.  <BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller universe, the Imperium's Ministry of Trade<BR>
has a branch called the Imperial Securities Department<BR>
("ISD"), which administers the Imperial laws governing<BR>
interstellar investments (such as they are).  The corporate<BR>
profile could be an ISD form, derived from the ISBA's form<BR>
and now widely used throughout the Imperium, both for<BR>
publicly and closely held business organizations.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn <BR>
(formerly a securities litigator)<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:52:49 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote,<BR>
>Gosh, you mean the Zhodani have gone all the way through Deneb, Vland <BR>
and the Core, and hit the Rim from behind? Or did they fight their <BR>
way around Deneb, across the Rift and through the Hierate?<<BR>
<BR>
No, meaning a Frontier War delayed the Solomani Rim War.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:14:55 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote,<BR>
>I "concede" that we are in a match of opposing opinions.  Some people<BR>
have mined ObTravs from it, but IMO they've been few and far between<BR>
compared to the signal.  If you wish to continue this, my email address<BR>
is smithw@hartwick.edu.<<BR>
<BR>
How quaint. Insult me publicly then challenge me to a private duel.<BR>
Well, given your (lack of) morality what else should I expect.<BR>
You got it.<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry wrote,<BR>
>No it WASN'T.  I will pay you $50,000 if you can produce *one* piece of<BR>
evidence where our leadership or the UN made the removal of the sitting<BR>
Iraqi government part of the military mission objectives.<<BR>
<BR>
Do you want a private response to this as well?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:24:49 -0500 <BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Just a couple of observations from the peanut gallery...<BR>
<BR>
	Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:11:49 -0400 <BR>
	From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
	Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
	<snip><BR>
	>Quite apart from the moral position of MAD realistically SAC<BR>
bombers <BR>
	>never made sense. The so called Strategic Triad was never more than<BR>
a <BR>
	>political excuse to keep pouring money into the Air Force. Both<BR>
land <BR>
	>based and aircraft delivery systems were never really viable. Land<BR>
based <BR>
	>were vulnerable to first strike and by the time aircraft based<BR>
assets <BR>
	>came into play their targets would have already been taken out by <BR>
	>missiles from SSBN's. <BR>
<BR>
	I'm terribly sorry, but you are mistaken.<BR>
	<snip><BR>
<BR>
And don't forget the other justification that bombers, while more likely to<BR>
get caught on the ground due to their relatively long launch time (compared<BR>
to missiles), have one significant advantage leading to bipolar stability:<BR>
they can be recalled without loss. You aren't as likely to launch that<BR>
irrevocable strike on erroneous warnings.<BR>
Ultimately, it's the issue of warnings that made MAD a superior strategy to<BR>
Reagan's flexible response. Holding each other's populations hostage may not<BR>
be moral, but it keeps the damage potential in the unacceptible range.<BR>
Flexible response, focusing more on counter-force attacks, leads to more of<BR>
a "use it or lose it" mentality and greater risk of a launch based on<BR>
warnings that could be also be erroneous while also increasing the<BR>
impression that you could 'win' a nuclear war.<BR>
<BR>
	The cold war was insane.  The stupidest thing we Americans could<BR>
	have possibly taken part in.  The only thing more stupid would have<BR>
	been for us not to take part.<BR>
<BR>
This I don't agree with. The cold war was unnecessary even given the<BR>
information available to the US at the time. The Army intelligence groups<BR>
knew the Russians were pretty exhausted from their fight of the Germans, it<BR>
was the civilian, red-scare-happy intelligence services that whipped up the<BR>
threat (with the help of Nazis too... well, what would you expect with a<BR>
Dulles involved). The decision makers, unfortunately, went with the wrong<BR>
advice and a huge opportunity was lost. But no point crying about spilt<BR>
money.<BR>
Hmmm... maybe that's the roll of client states in the Marches. Sending<BR>
inflated intelligence reports about the Zhos to keep getting 3I defense aid<BR>
flowing in and increasing their own indispensibility.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn<BR>
bdunn@epicsystems.com<BR>
<BR>
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like<BR>
to pee a lot."   --Capital Brewery, Middleton, WI<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:27:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> <BR>
>At 19:22 -0400 5/6/00, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
>wrote:<BR>
>>What's the point at which a missile becomes a robot?<BR>
><BR>
>Iain Bank's Knife Missiles?<BR>
<BR>
or the grav dart floating behind the panel in Paul<BR>
Atreides' room<BR>
<BR>
I'm in the camp that thinks that Lynch got Herbert's vision<BR>
about right.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:19:35 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re:At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
<BR>
At 16:52 -0400 6/6/00, "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>there is an 8 page quick-reference pullout section with all the <BR>
>tables you need to play (can we have permission to photocopy these <BR>
>sheets for personal use during our ACQ games?)<BR>
<BR>
Consider permission granted to copy the pull out tables for personal <BR>
use. I recommend copying and laminating the two sheets.<BR>
<BR>
Permission is not granted to host the information electronically or <BR>
onwardly distribute it etc.<BR>
<BR>
And thanks for the review. I hope that everyone can appreciate Doug <BR>
and James' work as much as I do after 18+ months of development.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:25:09 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] 101 Patrons and ACQ available now!<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Dateline 6 June 2000<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani agents report that ACQ and 101 Patrons are now available at <BR>
Warehouse 23 - http://www.warehouse23.com/ for mail order. The other <BR>
BITS books have been restocked too.<BR>
<BR>
Solomani agents report that ACQ and 101 Patrons have been shipped to <BR>
Esdevium (the UK distributor) so UK and European FLGSs should be able <BR>
to obtain copies of them now.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:26:16 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Mossie details (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Walt and Bloo, thanks for the information on the Mosquito! Poor <BR>
memories on my part.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:28:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Striker at Kristian Miller's <BR>
<BR>
please email me off-list, by the way.  I hope that was<BR>
understood.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:28:33 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was  Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
<BR>
>How quaint. Insult me publicly then challenge me to a private duel.<BR>
<BR>
Pot, meet kettle.  Kettle, pot.<BR>
 <BR>
>Well, given your (lack of) morality what else should I expect. <BR>
>You got it. <BR>
<BR>
If you don't like having your opinions pummeled, you should keep<BR>
them in a nice, safe, private box instead of in a public forum.<BR>
It can be dangerous to one's opinions to share them with others.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:36:39 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn wrote:<BR>
>This I don't agree with. The cold war was unnecessary even given the <BR>
>information available to the US at the time. The Army intelligence <BR>
>groups knew the Russians were pretty exhausted from their fight of the <BR>
>Germans, it was the civilian, red-scare-happy intelligence services that <BR>
>whipped up the threat<BR>
<BR>
How long did the Russian exhaustion last?  <BR>
<BR>
There were excesses and paranoia during the cold war, certainly.<BR>
I don't know what level of response would have been as effective.  <BR>
Would the Soviet bloc have polarized so far from the western bloc if<BR>
the west had been less confrontational, or would the Soviets have<BR>
taken a cue from their old enemies (Nazi Germany) and taken all they<BR>
could get until the west stopped backing down?<BR>
<BR>
I'm glad I'm in a country that won the cold war.  The aftermath is<BR>
probably just as dangerous, but doesn't seem quite so nerve-wracking.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:29:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ringworld in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/6/00 9:04 AM, djdees@mm.com issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Haven't tried putting a real ring world in, but someplace I've old notes on<BR>
>> a Well World.<BR>
><BR>
> What is a Well World?<BR>
<BR>
It's from Jack Chalker's "Well World" series.<BR>
<BR>
It's kind hard to explain. But basicly, there's a planet built around a<BR>
computer. Said computer *runs* the Universe (that is, the rest of the<BR>
Universe is the equivalent of a VR simulation run on the computer. A<BR>
"holodeck" the size of the universe....<BR>
<BR>
The surface of the planet consists of a "cap" at each pole, and a belet<BR>
at the equator. With the rest of the planet consisting of a bunch of<BR>
habitats with differing conditions, each with hexagonal boundaries. In<BR>
one hemisphere, the hexes are more or less earth-like. In the other,<BR>
the environments are shall we say "rather more varied" :-)<BR>
<BR>
One of the things that varies between hexes is what technology works or<BR>
doesn't work. <BR>
<BR>
There's a *lot* more than this, but reading the books is the best way<BR>
to learn about the Well World.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:40:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There is also that pesky Vilani market who finds X-TEK a<BR>
> bit too inovative and even dangerous.  (If the Vilani think X-TEK is<BR>
> dangerous, do they outright boycott Spofulam? <G>)<BR>
<BR>
No, they just don't *see* FS. Sort of like <fnord>.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:46:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I am in the process of trying to do something foolish.  I am trying to<BR>
> design a streamlined shuttle for a Tech Level 9 exploration vessel,<BR>
> *without* using any of that convenient gravitic technology.  The exhaust<BR>
> produced by the fusion rocket is prohibitively dirty, and since we're<BR>
> talking about Tech Level 9, fusion reactors are far too bulky, and clean<BR>
> HEPlaR drives haven't even been invented yet.  Am I correct in thinking<BR>
> that I should design this shuttle with a hypersonic airframe hull, and a<BR>
> "three-fold" propulsion system (air-breathing engines for flying at low<BR>
> altitudes, "primitive" rockets for orbital insertion, and a nuclear<BR>
> fission rocket for operating in space)? <BR>
<BR>
Just use the nuclear fission rocket. The solid core types *don't*<BR>
produce a noticeably radioactive exhaust, and with clever design you<BR>
*could* rig on to use atmospheric gases and supplement them with<BR>
onboard propellant when they got too thin.<BR>
<BR>
So it'd gradually shift from "nuclear jet" to "nuclear rocket" as the<BR>
altitude increased.<BR>
<BR>
But just using it as a pure rocket is much simpler. And rockets can and<BR>
do land vertically, as the DC-X proved. The hydrogen that nuclear<BR>
rockets normall use is *far* more efficient than air anyway (molecular<BR>
weight of the exhaust has an effect on the efficiency of a rocket). <BR>
<BR>
Note that in emergency things like water, ammonia (NH3, not the<BR>
household cleanser!) or methane could be used as propellants. <BR>
<BR>
Ammonia is probably the best, as the molecular weight of the exhaust is<BR>
lower, and when the heat inside the reactor breaks it down, both<BR>
components are a gas, and neither will react strongly with graphite<BR>
(though the "tubes" the fuel passes thru are probably lined with<BR>
something even less reactive, they might have cracks). <BR>
<BR>
Water is less desirable, because the molecular weight is higher, and<BR>
the oxygen is going to react with the graphite moderator if there are<BR>
any cracks in the liners.<BR>
<BR>
Methane is the least desirable, even though it has the lowest molecular<BR>
weight. That's because when *it* breaks down you get hydrogen (the<BR>
normal propellant, so not a problem) and *carbon*. Carbon is *solid* at<BR>
the temperatures involved. And it *will* deposit on the liners and<BR>
exhaust nozzle...<BR>
<BR>
Yes, a rocket that needs carbon deposits removed! :-)<BR>
<BR>
Still in a pinch, you'd use methane anyway, just to get off the world<BR>
(probably a frozen iceball in the outer system) and worry about the<BR>
carbon later).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:48:50 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Please take this OT discussion and all related pissing contests elsewhere.<BR>
And do it now.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:55:40 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT on the TML, with another apology<BR>
<BR>
Ladies and gentlemen,<BR>
<BR>
I apologize for the wasted bandwidth, as I have already succumbed to<BR>
the "reply to" urge and sent a public reply (the "Pot, Kettle" one) to <BR>
samwise1.  I will not repeat this on the public list, and am embarrassed<BR>
to have continued so long - especially right after I said I would<BR>
take it off the list.<BR>
<BR>
Taken to private email...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
"...I have a windmill fetish.  Sancho, my armor!!"<BR>
               - quoted from alt.polyamory on usenet<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:02:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
> Would you play a round of golf or five on a course that was seeded with '1<BR>
> year mines' five years ago ? Would you let your kids play in a<BR>
> park that had<BR>
> them seeded ten years ago ?<BR>
><BR>
That would depend on how 'disposable' the mines are.  I am thinking in terms<BR>
the 3I.  Old mines can be identified by spots of lush vegetation as their<BR>
explosives break down into fertilizer.<BR>
With today's mines, probably not, but then I would want my children to play<BR>
in an area that had been bombed or hit by artillery fire.  As I recall, some<BR>
of the new limited lifespan mines are less hazardous than artillery beaten<BR>
zones in terms of unexploded munitions.  (I'll try to find the source for<BR>
this).<BR>
<BR>
> So are poison gas, dum-dum bullets and so on (and, please, I don't want to<BR>
> get into the "just following orders" weasels in the US DoD legal<BR>
> department<BR>
> etc who argue that self-fragmenting bullets that have similar effects to<BR>
> dum-dums are within the various conventions ...).<BR>
<BR>
Well, we can thank the British for dum-dums, and the Europeans for poison<BR>
gas.  BTW, US policy never ruled out the use of chemical weapons anyway,<BR>
just no first use. Not that I am advocating chemical warfare.  Having<BR>
enjoyed the pleasures of wearing MOPP4 gear while vacationing at government<BR>
expense at Ft. Benning, GA, I'll pass.  My point was, why are mines<BR>
(provided they are non-Persistent) more horrible than any other particular<BR>
weapon used in war (like artillery, bombs, or how about plasma guns--nice<BR>
burns, eh)?<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is that the artillery usually stops shooting at the end of the<BR>
> war, and the mines are still there.<BR>
<BR>
So are unexploded shells, which tend to become more dangerous over time.<BR>
Your point?<BR>
<BR>
[the following was a follow-up to another poster, but I'll respond anyway]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Also remember that artillery fire reveals the position of the artillery,<BR>
> which could then be vulnerable to counter-battery fire or assault by grav<BR>
> tanks.<BR>
<BR>
1st rule of artillery.  Shoot and scoot. Hence self-propelled guns.<BR>
Further, artillery can usually fire a lot farther than armor (whose main<BR>
guns are generally designed to kill other tanks).  Load that arty with<BR>
high-tech copperheads and start killing grav tanks from a long way off.<BR>
Those grav tanks will have to get right up on the arty, which is emplaced<BR>
for indirect fire and well behind the FEBA.  You'll have to get through the<BR>
enemy's defense in depth.  2nd rule of artillery.  Never deploy without<BR>
support.<BR>
<BR>
> Build em under FFS2. Plug in some reasonable numbers for robot brains.<BR>
><BR>
> Now see if they cost less than a tank. In fact, see if you can take that<BR>
> hull and put a driver and a commander into it without too much loss of<BR>
> efficiency (while taking up about 3.5 m3 each, people are light<BR>
> at about 300<BR>
> kilos each, including workstation).<BR>
><BR>
> They are also going to have one hell of a signature, and Gods Own Gift to<BR>
> defenders (the AT weapon of whatever kind linked to a camera,<BR>
> with a wire to<BR>
> the operator behind a hill) will cause your robot tankettes problems.<BR>
><BR>
> > Remember both the Hivers and the Zho use warbots. Both still<BR>
> have sophont<BR>
> > soldiers. So obviously there's a place for both in your battle plan.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The basic rule of modern warfare is combined arms.  Tanks without support<BR>
are targets, so are robots.  My infantryman with a Cr 25,000 tac missile<BR>
takes out your MCr 2.5 tank.  Guess who just won that exchange.  Same for<BR>
robots.  My relatively dumb, robot seeking missiles (say unmanned and<BR>
programmed to shoot at robots--a slightly more sophisticated Hellfire and Cr<BR>
50,000 ea) destroys even a stupid Cr 500,000 robot.  Good exchange.<BR>
Assuming equal economies, guess who goes broke first.<BR>
<BR>
The materials cost of modern war is a factor that few consider.  James<BR>
Dunnigan's "How to Make War" is informative in this regard. Large scale<BR>
modern wars must be short, or governments will go bankrupt.  Naturally, this<BR>
does not include wars of survival, which can be expected to be fought to the<BR>
bitter end.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I appreciate you opinions posted here.  While we may disagree, its<BR>
pleasant to do so in a relatively civil manner. Lots of this stuff finds its<BR>
way into my campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:57:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>>>Meson communicators are big, expensive power-hogs.  Your battlebots are<BR>
now<BR>
>>>becoming *very* attractive targets. Given an equal budget I can afford to<BR>
>>>field even more troops, each armed with a light anti-armor weapon.<BR>
>>- - --<BR>
>><BR>
>>This of course discounts the factor that the society might consider<BR>
>>intelligent life more valuable than the mere cost of how many credits it<BR>
>>takes to field and train a soldier.<BR>
><BR>
>  Under CT rules (Striker, and yes, CT _does_ rule :> ) your smallest<BR>
>unit (TL: F) is 500 kg, 500L, and Cr 1,000,000. Your mil-bot is now an<BR>
>OGRE Mk. I or thereabouts...<BR>
<BR>
Because I added a Cr 50,000 (under G:T) meson communicator? Heck the U.S.<BR>
navy pays more than that for a standard UHF transceiver. Actually you could<BR>
probably get by with a Cr 5000 meson receiver, for most of the units. And<BR>
lets look at the cost of the soldier. The U.S. pays a soldier ~$20,000 a<BR>
year (if he has a family.) That's a hundred grand in 5 years exclusive of<BR>
training cost. What do those come to? Add equipment, food, etc. Given that a<BR>
Cr isn't really equal to a dollar (Just check the income levels in G:T or<BR>
the CT LBB if you don't believe me. IN GT it sets a doctor's cost of living<BR>
at Cr 12,000 a year-p-l-e-a-s-e.) it might just be that your average soldier<BR>
makes Cr 8000 a year and you can field a couple of squads for  the price of<BR>
a robot. Lets run down a standard kit. Just for the sake of argument we'll<BR>
set up some GTL10 troops, not in battledress.<BR>
<BR>
We'll start with the Combat Environmental Suit (CES) @GTL 9 it costs Cr<BR>
4000. Under G:UT rules (which apply in this case) @ GTL10 it cost Cr 2000.<BR>
If the suit has IR Chameleon up it another Cr 750. For regular Chameleon<BR>
technology add Cr 1850 @ GTL10. Cr 3850. I believe the author of GT:GF added<BR>
a combat vest to this. He didn't give a price but I believe a monocrys vest<BR>
is Cr 800 @ GTL8 so @GTL10 it will cost a mere Cr 200 for a total of Cr<BR>
4050.<BR>
<BR>
According to GT the Combat Infantry Helmet @GTL8 is Cr240 so @GTL10 is Cr<BR>
60. Of course this helmet lacks the most basic enhancements, including only<BR>
a set of CBR filters. If we use the standard Infantry Combat Helmet from<BR>
G:UT we get a sensor visor w/HUD and low light/IR, short range communication<BR>
etc and increase the basic cost to Cr 2060. Let's include an IFF transponder<BR>
(which can be turned off of course) for Cr 25. That way we can cut down on<BR>
the friendly fire incidents. Naturally you only turn it on after the enemy<BR>
knows where you are. That puts our helmet @ 2085. If you expect to go<BR>
against the Joes add Cr 1250 for a psi shield upping it to CR 3335.<BR>
<BR>
If gauss rifles are our weapon of choice it will cost us Cr 2620. If we<BR>
decide to go with the ACR its Cr 1640. (I'm in a bit of a problem here. The<BR>
GT:SM and G:T2E numbers don't agree. I used the G:T2E numbers.) A selection<BR>
of ammo is at least another Cr 200 or so.<BR>
<BR>
Now there's all the plebian little things that a soldier needs:   survival<BR>
watch Cr 150, vapor canteen Cr 112, Combat Knife Cr 40  , the ubiquitous<BR>
pocket pack from G:FT page 69 which contains a penlight, Swiss army knife (I<BR>
call them Solomani pocket tools IMTU), tape, a marking pen, and a candy bar<BR>
Cr 10.  Flashlight Cr 25. Backpack to carry it ~Cr 100 if the soldier is<BR>
going to carry the full weight or twice that if it has CG built in so the<BR>
soldier can up his load. Then there's the tent; Cr 125 if the army wants to<BR>
use the same one for both normal and CBR/ hostile environments. Sleeping<BR>
bag, probably about Cr 80.  That's Cr 642 or Cr 742 with the CG option. Of<BR>
course you could make the soldier buy his own watch and give him a Cr 5<BR>
canteen and hope he doesn't catch some vile local bug.<BR>
<BR>
That gives us a total of ~Cr 11,000 using the Gauss Rifle and the CG<BR>
backpack.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't figure in the things like belts and socks and underwear. Of course<BR>
I also didn't figure in things like dress uniforms, and barracks uniforms<BR>
(you know the uniform the soldier wears when he's not in the field.) In the<BR>
U.S. right now in the army the field and barracks uniform is pretty much the<BR>
same, as long as you're not deploying to the desert. That's not true in the<BR>
USMC or the Navy where one uniform is worn in the field (or aboard ship) and<BR>
another is worn in barracks or when working in an office environment and<BR>
another is worn for dress/ceremonial occasions.<BR>
<BR>
It cost a Navy E-7 something like $2000 to buy a complete set of uniforms,<BR>
and he'll probably still get things like coveralls for use at sea and a foul<BR>
weather jacket issued on top of that. So I'd say we can safely add another<BR>
Cr 2000 for other uniforms to our total.<BR>
<BR>
That makes it Cr 13,000 for equipment. It will be a bit more if we expect<BR>
him to fight in space or on a vacuum world. And we still haven't paid to<BR>
train the poor sap. Or fed him. Or got him a place to live when he's not in<BR>
the field.<BR>
<BR>
(GT:GF will have a basic kit, if it follows the playtest. I don't know how<BR>
close my kit is to Doug's soon to be official kit, but I'd bet I'm in the<BR>
ballpark.)<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2562<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (rly-yh03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.35]) by air-yh01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:07:49 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:07:25 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA64595;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:06:26 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:03:10 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA64496<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:03:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:03:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006062203.SAA64496@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2562<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2563</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 5:37:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2563<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Re: TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM <BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
_Inside the Third Reich_ (was: Re: Strategic economics)<BR>
Re: UCP and John Woods' 101 Corporations...<BR>
RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Meson communicators/Warbots<BR>
RE: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
Re: TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM <BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Brief Rant (was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
Re: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
Imperial Ministry of Propaganda (i.e. Rant no more)<BR>
Border Wars (was Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
ACQ at Warehouse 23<BR>
Re: ACQ at Warehouse 23<BR>
Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:15:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re: TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM <BR>
<BR>
> TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM<BR>
><BR>
> An electronic gun with no mechanical parts fires a million rounds per<BR>
> minute<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This article first popped up about 6 months ago on CNN, among other places.<BR>
In reality, the concept is not so new.  An American inventor, last name<BR>
Holland IIRC, patented his "Roman Candle" gun in the mid 1960's.  It was a<BR>
shotgun, with succeeding loads placed one upon another in the barrels.  It<BR>
was fired by electrical current.  It did not fire all rounds in rapid<BR>
succession, however so credit goes to the Australian inventor there.<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, The Roman Candle gun was based on 19th century designs like<BR>
the Volcanic Arms (later Winchester) patents.  It's new and impressive on<BR>
TV, but you can get similar effects with canister or beehive loads.  Is it<BR>
accurate?  What is the barrels life.  How long to reload.  What about<BR>
collateral damage?  There is a mention of the electronics lending themselves<BR>
to security systems.  Why?  Are we going to issue this thing to the<BR>
Police--or civilians.<BR>
<BR>
And lastly, I can not help but be curious how the inventor managed to build<BR>
this this under the strict gun gun control laws of Oz.  It would probably be<BR>
unlawful to build it here in the US unless you had a Title II (Class 3)<BR>
manufacturers license.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:21:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
>I am in the process of trying to do something foolish.  I am trying to<BR>
>design a streamlined shuttle for a Tech Level 9 exploration vessel,<BR>
>*without* using any of that convenient gravitic technology.  The exhaust<BR>
>produced by the fusion rocket is prohibitively dirty, and since we're<BR>
>talking about Tech Level 9, fusion reactors are far too bulky, and clean<BR>
>HEPlaR drives haven't even been invented yet.  Am I correct in thinking<BR>
>that I should design this shuttle with a hypersonic airframe hull, and a<BR>
>"three-fold" propulsion system (air-breathing engines for flying at low<BR>
>altitudes, "primitive" rockets for orbital insertion, and a nuclear<BR>
>fission rocket for operating in space)?<BR>
<BR>
I have a couple of desgins for this. Are you using FFS1 or FFS2?<BR>
<BR>
My FFS1 design is a VTVL aircraft with AZHRAE (hybrid<BR>
airbreathing/rocket engines) - these are very nice in FFS1.<BR>
One version is even field-refuellable (hydrogen-burning rather than<BR>
HCD-burning.) The VTVL one could probably be rough-field<BR>
capable.<BR>
<BR>
The FFS2 design is a heavy cargo lifter. It's not an airframe hull - it<BR>
takes of and lands like a rocket. It's similar to the second two thirds<BR>
of what you describe - chemical rockets for initial liftoff, NTR for most<BR>
of the final boost. It was less clear to me if this was rough-field capable<BR>
(landing on dry grass with a rocket would be a mistake) but it could<BR>
probably land on sand or rock.<BR>
<BR>
>but I suspect that by the time I finish cramming its hull with chunky,<BR>
>clunky, Tech Level 9 hardware, it will end up sinking like a stone...<BR>
This may not actually be true. To be field-refuellable it'll have to be<BR>
hydrogen burning - LH rocket fuel is very, very light.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:24:28 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: _Inside the Third Reich_ (was: Re: Strategic economics)<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
> >  While rationalization of varieties was a big part of Speers reforms,<BR>
> >expansion of production was the main contributor to increased output.<BR>
> <BR>
> Speer was key in switching the economy to a war footing. If only I<BR>
> could remember the name/title of the bio I read recently.<BR>
<BR>
Was it Speer's memoirs, _Inside the Third Reich_?  A good read (though<BR>
obviously self-serving), and a useful source of information concerning<BR>
court cliques in a Charismatic Dictatorship.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:11:30 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: UCP and John Woods' 101 Corporations...<BR>
<BR>
Wow!  Using UCP?  Wow!<BR>
<BR>
Okay, here's my suggestion: change the whole stinking<BR>
thing to map the traits to the BITS task system, since<BR>
most of them are supposed to map to tasks anyhow.<BR>
Map them numerically (since it's more readable than<BR>
letters):<BR>
<BR>
 1 Easy<BR>
 2 Average<BR>
 3 Difficult<BR>
 4 Formidable<BR>
 5 Staggering<BR>
 6 Impossible<BR>
 7 Hopeless<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Originally, the numbers mapped to the T4 task<BR>
system.  But it needn't be so closely tied to<BR>
a rules system!  Map it to BITS!!<BR>
<BR>
That solves a couple of issues: "is high better<BR>
or low better"?  "is it 2 or 3 dice?"  etc.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Good suggestions for ranges and public image.<BR>
<BR>
Convert R&D to BITS task levels, and explain it as<BR>
"the chance that a qualified player can find useful<BR>
employment/information/lab resources/etc at this<BR>
company"... or, maybe, label it as a TL and explain <BR>
it as "the likelihood that the company has the technical <BR>
ability to discover principles up through the given <BR>
Tech Level in its areas of operations".  Or something <BR>
like that.  (Why not a percentage?  Because that info<BR>
might not be so useful from a gameplay point of view...<BR>
or it might be better left to the referee to worry<BR>
about... or maybe not.  Whatever.)<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to clone and own Andrew's PubS PubL PubW<BR>
categories...<BR>
<BR>
> NATIONALITY:<BR>
> I added "This is the standard two letter allegiance code" at the front.<BR>
> I'm unclear on when to use the race codes - presumably I use Im for any<BR>
> Imperial corporation even if it is Vilani in origin?<BR>
<BR>
I suppose a note explaining the roots of a company can<BR>
shed some light on its present attitudes, yes?  So, <BR>
perhaps cultural roots are important.<BR>
<BR>
And what if a company is registered in several empires?<BR>
<BR>
I suggest cultural info be enumerated in the text block,<BR>
but I'm really not sure of the best course to take.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:23:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
> The unarmed ones were unarmed for a reason...speed.  If you can't<BR>
> catch it, you can't kill it.  Generally speaking, the Germans couldn't<BR>
> catch them.  That was fine with the Mosquito crews, it wasn't their<BR>
> job to stay and fight with the Luftwaffe.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember reading about Mosquito pilots giving their plane a really<BR>
good way job before missions, just for the extra few miles per hour of<BR>
airspeed.<BR>
> ISTR that the Brits did some experiments with ultra-high-altitude<BR>
> bombing early in the war.  Flew a few bombers so high that nothing could<BR>
> hurt them, but operational range was too short and their bomb sights<BR>
> were nowhere near accurate enough to make it worthwhile.<BR>
<BR>
There is mention of this on Bob's B-17 page<BR>
http://www.fscwv.edu/users/rheffner/b17/Bob17.html<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:41:50 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Meson communicators/Warbots<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Meson communicators/Warbots<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Under CT rules (Striker, and yes, CT _does_ rule :> ) your smallest<BR>
>> unit (TL: F) is 500 kg, 500L, and Cr 1,000,000. Your mil-bot is now an <BR>
>> OGRE Mk. I or thereabouts...<BR>
><BR>
>I guess the thing to look at is how would you go about building a decent<BR>
>drone missile, or a remotely piloted reconnaisance drone.  These are the<BR>
>kind of warbots the Imperium uses.<BR>
<BR>
  Striker does all of those [incl. "drone missile(/vehicle) brains"], but<BR>
they rely on beam commo - mesons are being used in this thread to by-pass<BR>
the entire LOS/EW issue, but under CT at least such is not possible.<BR>
<BR>
>If you want to go for "proper" warbots, then you take the warhead off your<BR>
>drone missile, and stick on some cheapo weapons.  The drone becomes a<BR>
>reusable weapons platform.  It might even be expendable.<BR>
<BR>
 Agreed; I'm not sure if they've been written up for Trav, but the 2300 AD<BR>
idea of the drone "missile" that itself replaces a warhead with racks for<BR>
deploying dumber, short-ranged missiles can easily be manufactured using<BR>
the Striker design sequences as written (platform as vehicle with drone <BR>
brain added, and then tac-missiles as normal - all that's needed is some<BR>
work with Book: 8, or RC via meson comm, which is likely affordable for<BR>
a flying Ontos).<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:43:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
> Just use the nuclear fission rocket. The solid core types *don't*<BR>
> produce a noticeably radioactive exhaust, and with clever design you<BR>
> *could* rig on to use atmospheric gases and supplement them with<BR>
> onboard propellant when they got too thin.<BR>
> <BR>
> So it'd gradually shift from "nuclear jet" to "nuclear rocket" as the<BR>
> altitude increased.<BR>
<BR>
Didn't Steve Gallacci use a system like this in his "Albedo" RPG?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:46:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
> I seem to remember reading about Mosquito pilots giving their <BR>
> plane a really<BR>
> good way job before missions, just for the extra few miles per hour of<BR>
> airspeed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I can't spell today.  Make that 'wax' job.<BR>
<BR>
sheepishly, Tod <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:48:08 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote<BR>
"Douglas Berry wrote,<BR>
>No it WASN'T.  I will pay you $50,000 if you can produce *one* piece of<BR>
evidence where our leadership or the UN made the removal of the sitting<BR>
Iraqi government part of the military mission objectives.<<BR>
<BR>
Do you want a private response to this as well?"<BR>
<BR>
Please include me if that is a non-tml response.  I would like to see what proof that you will come up with.<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:28:32 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
...<BR>
>>Gazelles! :><BR>
><BR>
>  Crew them with undesirables, but don't explain _why_?<<BR>
><BR>
>ROFL<BR>
>So the Imperium does use Convict "Battalions" of a sort?<BR>
>Who are the officers then? Lieutenant's gone bad who want a chance at a<BR>
comeback?<BR>
<BR>
  Ah, there's undesirables and then there's _undesirables_ - you might <BR>
be thinking of out and out incorrigibles, and others might look to the <BR>
politically unreliable. I could do without the "too incompetent to have<BR>
around, doesn't know it, and nobody else will do anything about it". :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:29:29 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM <BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, not just last year, but now twice this week:<BR>
<BR>
>TAKING BALLISTICS BY STORM<BR>
...<BR>
>What might be needed here is a way of using exceptionally cheap and <BR>
>lightweight materials as the barrels and then a mechanism to switch <BR>
>barrels for each shot. Perhaps a return of the military revolver? It <BR>
>would seem this method, for personal weapons, would work best for <BR>
>handguns or carbines where the range requirements are limited and a <BR>
>short barrel can be used effectively to keep the reload mass low.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, the expanded write-ups of this (all of the initial shorts<BR>
mis-characterized it drastically) explain that the system is of a<BR>
nature that can be described as a very narrow directional mine with<BR>
real precision - thus the interest in PD apps.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:39:45 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
He he ...I was thinking a way job, as in "I think I'll be waaaay over<BR>
here" (points to, say, Australia on a map) "When the ME109's show up!"<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I seem to remember reading about Mosquito pilots giving their<BR>
> > plane a really<BR>
> > good way job before missions, just for the extra few miles per hour of<BR>
> > airspeed.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ok, I can't spell today.  Make that 'wax' job.<BR>
> <BR>
> sheepishly, Tod<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:19:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:35 PM 6/6/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>5 out of 5 starbursts.<BR>
<BR>
Your $50 is in the mail.. oops, did I send this to the list? :)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the kind words, but I have to ask, did we leave anything out<BR>
that you would have liked to see?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:21:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
At 08:21 PM 6/6/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>> > "No, there is no problem with our target identification systems.  Those<BR>
>> > soldiers who you see scrambling out of the APC that one of our Apache's<BR>
>> > just fired at are _not_ British."<BR>
>>A small mistake.  The gunner thought they were Australian.<BR>
><BR>
>ISTR that the two Warrior APCs were taken out by A10s?<BR>
<BR>
F-15E Strike Eagles, whose pilots asked five different times for<BR>
confirmation of the target, which they couldn't see.  The British Army HQ<BR>
had lost track of its units, and had the infantry unit in the wrong place.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:26:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
At 05:14 PM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas Berry wrote,<BR>
>>No it WASN'T.  I will pay you $50,000 if you can produce *one* piece of<BR>
>evidence where our leadership or the UN made the removal of the sitting<BR>
>Iraqi government part of the military mission objectives.<<BR>
><BR>
>Do you want a private response to this as well?<BR>
<BR>
No, out in public.  Give us a reference to any official communication,<BR>
briefing, Ops Order or any reference in a history of the Gulf War to the<BR>
United States directing, as policy that the US goal was to remove Saddam<BR>
Hussein from power.  <BR>
<BR>
Yopu won't find it, because it never hapened.  We went in with two goals.<BR>
Remove the Iraqis from Kuwait, and keep Israel from intervening.  We<BR>
succeeded on both measures. <BR>
<BR>
Look at the battle plan, it ends with the 3rd Army facing away from<BR>
Bagdhad!  The only thing screening that force was the 101st Air Assault and<BR>
good intentions.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:37:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
At 04:52 PM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>No, meaning a Frontier War delayed the Solomani Rim War.<BR>
<BR>
How?  The Third Frontier War lasted from 979-986.  Canonically, the Third<BR>
War wasn't that much, just commerce raiding and a few battles.  If<BR>
anything, the 3FW should have hastened the Solomani break, since Emperor<BR>
Stryx was forced to abidicate at the end of the conflict.<BR>
<BR>
Now, Even at Jump-4, the front lines of the Spinward Marches are at least<BR>
two to three *years* from the Solomani Sphere.  The Rim War began in 990..<BR>
only four years after the end of the 3FW.  How on Earth can you claim that<BR>
the Frontier Wars delayed the Solomani War of Liberation?<BR>
<BR>
Douglas    Berry gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:26:17 +0930<BR>
From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant (was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
On 20000606.2244, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The yanks tried _real_hard_ to terminate SH.  Hell, the CIA even financed<BR>
>> and engineered at least one coup attempt (that has leaked so far - we'll<BR>
>> probably hear about others down the track).  Of course, that failed, just<BR>
>> like the USMIL's other "non-attempts" at blowing him to pieces with<BR>
>> cruise missiles.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Having failed (again) at acheiving a primary objective, the US<BR>
>> administration turns to CNN and the media to begin the long-term process<BR>
>> of brainwashing the public and covering up their failures and mistakes.<BR>
><BR>
>What! a whole week without yank bashing?  Thanks, Henry, I was beginning to<BR>
>feel like you foreigners had forgotten about us :)<BR>
<BR>
Forget about you?  How could you ever let us forget about you?  And would <BR>
we ever want to?  America is the western world's biggest security blanket <BR>
and heat shield.  If it wasn't for you, _we_ would have to put up with <BR>
all the flak that you guys currently cop.  No thanks - you're serving <BR>
your role admirably, and I hope you do so for many decades to come.  <BR>
Let's us concentrate on long-term prosperity.<BR>
<BR>
And what makes you think that I'm yank bashing?  I was just illustrating <BR>
how governments use the media to engage in a domestic propaganda campaign <BR>
which effectively rewrites history.  It seems that certain members of <BR>
this list have succumbed.<BR>
<BR>
Any discussion of the success (or failure) of strategic objectives <BR>
(especially if they relate to an event which occurred many years ago) <BR>
needs to take into consideration the brainwashing affects that have been <BR>
perpetrated by the local government since that time.<BR>
<BR>
ALL governments do it.<BR>
<BR>
The next time we're talking about Australia and Vietnam or East Timor, <BR>
and some other lemming tows the party line, I'll make sure I even up the <BR>
score.  Happy?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> Ahhh, the USA - 280,000,000 lemmings, and a force to be reckoned with.<BR>
><BR>
>More like 250,000,00 lemmings, 20,000,00 wackos, psychos and freaks, and<BR>
>about 10,000,000 hard motherf**ckers with lots of guns, knives, bombs and<BR>
>attitude.<BR>
<BR>
:^)<BR>
<BR>
For reference, there are about 18,000,000 lemmings in Australia.<BR>
<BR>
Henry.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:52:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
<BR>
>With the Cold War over ICBMs are pretty much useless and in fact they are<BR>
>dangerous.  The US DoD is in the midst of a major drawdown.  The AF ICBM<BR>
component >(land-based) has been halved and the supporting organizations<BR>
have undergone an >enormous drawdown greater than the DoD in general.  It's<BR>
the new world order.<BR>
><BR>
The Navy's SSBN fleet has been similarly reduced. Total submarine strength<BR>
(Both SSN and SSBN) is half of what it was ten years ago.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:59:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
<BR>
Warning *SPOILERS* ahead for Chalker's excellent 5-book Well World series<BR>
and the less inspired (IMO) 3-book sequel series.  <BR>
<BR>
<Leonard><BR>
It's kind hard to explain. But basicly, there's a planet built around a<BR>
computer. Said computer *runs* the Universe (that is, the rest of the<BR>
Universe is the equivalent of a VR simulation run on the computer. A<BR>
"holodeck" the size of the universe....<BR>
</Leonard><BR>
<BR>
Also, people would end up there from all over the universe and be<BR>
"processed" into various different alien life-forms.  The Well World (The<BR>
"Well of Souls", aka) was also a kind of cosmic preserve area, with small<BR>
groups of each intelligent life form in the universe.  In that sense, the<BR>
ringworld I came up with for my Year 0 Trav campaign (see previous post)<BR>
was kinda like a cross between Niven's Ringworld and a Well World. <BR>
<BR>
<Leonard><BR>
at the equator. With the rest of the planet consisting of a bunch of<BR>
habitats with differing conditions, each with hexagonal boundaries. In<BR>
one hemisphere, the hexes are more or less earth-like. In the other,<BR>
the environments are shall we say "rather more varied" :-)<BR>
</Leonard><BR>
<BR>
The "more normal" half was for carbon-based intelligent life forms (one<BR>
per hex).  The other half was for all the different non-carbon types and<BR>
so had some pretty bizarre habitats, not to mention life-forms!  Chalker<BR>
was always great for coming up with really far-out aliens.  Not to mention<BR>
great titles:  "Midnight at the Well of Souls" was just too cool sounding<BR>
not to read.<BR>
<BR>
<Leonard><BR>
One of the things that varies between hexes is what technology works or<BR>
doesn't work.<BR>
</Leonard><BR>
<BR>
IIRC, there were three levels, roughly equivalent to Stone Age, Steam Age<BR>
and Electronic Age.<BR>
<BR>
<Leonard><BR>
There's a *lot* more than this, but reading the books is the best way<BR>
to learn about the Well World.<BR>
</Leonard><BR>
<BR>
Yup, but make it the original series of 5 if you can.  The recent sequel<BR>
trilogy was so-so.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
Charles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:04:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Imperial Ministry of Propaganda (i.e. Rant no more)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >> Ahhh, the USA - 280,000,000 lemmings, and a force to be reckoned with.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >More like 250,000,00 lemmings, 20,000,00 wackos, psychos and freaks, and<BR>
> >about 10,000,000 hard motherf**ckers with lots of guns, knives, bombs and<BR>
> >attitude.<BR>
><BR>
> :^)<BR>
><BR>
> For reference, there are about 18,000,000 lemmings in Australia.<BR>
><BR>
> Henry.<BR>
><BR>
Henry, If you ever make it out this way (Oregon, USA) remind me to buy you a<BR>
beer (good Micro Brew, no bathwater).  Anyway, how did you guys get really<BR>
good been in really huge cans, when all we got was weak p*ss-water in little<BR>
tiny bottles.  Some things are just not fair.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Does the Imperium have a propaganda machine? Does the Imperial<BR>
government take an active hand in manipulating the media.  Is there and<BR>
'Official Secrets Act', or is the press relatively free--free to criticize<BR>
the government and publish almost anything?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:06:39 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Border Wars (was Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
...<BR>
>>I might too, but that appeared to be the formula determined by Bush and<BR>
>>his advisors - getting stuck in in Iraq affected none of Kuwait's freedom,<BR>
>>US oil, or his chances of re-election (in no particular order of priority).<BR>
><BR>
>I'd go with the third as most important. Which would have been interesting<BR>
<BR>
  Didn't you say something about not being too cynical? :)<BR>
<BR>
>had he won and had to deal with the fallout from his own bad policy. Clinton<BR>
>just gets to point at Bush and blame him.<BR>
<BR>
  The SRW at least was pretty clear-cut, in that both sides wanted as<BR>
great a military advance as possible - just that the possible dropped<BR>
out from beneath them and left the border near Terra. One has to wonder<BR>
if either the 3I or the Zho conservatives are really prepared for their<BR>
own side to win an Nth FW.<BR>
<BR>
  And that train of thought would go a long way towards explaining the<BR>
stasis of the 3I/Aslan border - barring extermination or mass exodus,<BR>
there's no real solution to be had by conquering inhabited worlds that<BR>
belong to another species with a wholly alien culture (and we talk a<BR>
bit glibly about the very real problems of occupying remote corners of<BR>
Terra in the 1990's...!).<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:07:38 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
...<BR>
>>  While rationalization of varieties was a big part of Speers reforms,<BR>
>>expansion of production was the main contributor to increased output.<BR>
><BR>
>Speer was key in switching the economy to a war footing. If only I <BR>
>could remember the name/title of the bio I read recently.<BR>
<BR>
  Speer would have been pleased to know that he's virtually created a<BR>
small industry devoted to writing biographies of him, but then he did<BR>
a lot of writing in attempts to exonerate himself; it seems the height<BR>
of absurdity to suggest that he _didn't_ know where tens of millions of<BR>
man-years of labour were coming from, or where a significant amount of<BR>
rail capacity was being allocated (after all, individual vehicle programs<BR>
were reviewed and often canned under his office).<BR>
<BR>
  For the TNE people (and those others who use TNE's "history" as a<BR>
refs material snapshot of the pre-1116 3I), this sort of revisionism<BR>
or (re-)consideration is relevant in that the 3I does have to answer<BR>
for the (mis-)treatment of its inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:11:42 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: ACQ at Warehouse 23<BR>
<BR>
I just went to the sjgames website.  I see 101 Patrons, but search as I<BR>
might, I can't find ACQ anywhere...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:16:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ at Warehouse 23<BR>
<BR>
At 08:11 PM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I just went to the sjgames website.  I see 101 Patrons, but search as I<BR>
>might, I can't find ACQ anywhere...<BR>
<BR>
http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:33:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:40 AM<BR>
Subject: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/5/00 4:28 PM, Henry Penninkilampi at htp@metropolis.net.au wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > The yanks tried _real_hard_ to terminate SH.  Hell, the CIA even<BR>
financed<BR>
> > and engineered at least one coup attempt (that has leaked so far - we'll<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
> More like 250,000,00 lemmings, 20,000,00 wackos, psychos and freaks, and<BR>
> about 10,000,000 hard motherf**ckers with lots of guns, knives, bombs and<BR>
> attitude.  Down in Florida, they shoot tourists for sport.  Here in the<BR>
<BR>
<and again><BR>
<BR>
While I beleive that Tod may have been a bit too vindictive in his rant I<BR>
must add my voice to his in this. I've been on this list for a few years now<BR>
and in that time the only country I see to be constantly sniped at is the<BR>
US. THis is the second rely that I have made to that type of post, for the<BR>
most part I've tried to maintain an attitude that the people posting them<BR>
were just Trolls looking for a rise and treated them as such with the<BR>
Killfile button.<BR>
<BR>
This however is getting harder to do. I am the PROUD father of 2 US Marines,<BR>
both Sergants, one recently re-upped, the other is on a Med Tour. When my<BR>
son called for an unnamed European country, one of his first commenst was to<BR>
the effect that he and several of his buddys were ridiculed and spat on by<BR>
the locals. Breifed before hand and somewhat ready they returned to the<BR>
ship. His only question wasn't why he was there, as a Marine he goes where<BR>
the civilian govenment of this country sends him, his thoughts were, was it<BR>
worth it.<BR>
<BR>
The US is a country made from the emmigrants of EVREY other country in the<BR>
world. Hell, like Bill Murry said in Stripes "Our ancestors were kicked out<BR>
of the best countries...". I am as proud as anyone to trace my ancestory<BR>
back to England, Ireland, Poland and American Indian. I'm married to a pure<BR>
Irish lass who was was borne in this country, but whose father talks about<BR>
the boat ride here, with his father. Many, if not all of us still concider<BR>
"foreign" countries as realatives in some way. However, emails like Mr.<BR>
Penninkilampi's strains those thoughts severly.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe MY country has been a bit wrapped up in it's percieved role of<BR>
"policeman to the world" and has stepped on the toes of many other counties<BR>
in that role. I put a lot of that thinking down to the feelings of<BR>
relationship I mentioned above. For my part I TRUELY wish we in the US would<BR>
wake up and say to hell with everyone else! Then, at least I'd know my kid<BR>
would, if needed, die HERE, near his fiance and family, fighting for his<BR>
own, and where he is wanted,  not in a country where he's spat on. But I'm<BR>
only one voice. It's my bet that a number of countries, in the beginning<BR>
half of this century are glad that I am!<BR>
<BR>
In the meanwhile I agree with Tod... "enough of the US bashing crap.  I<BR>
don't piss on your country, please respect mine.  If you feel you need to<BR>
flame someone, take it off the list.". I'm proud of my country, your proud<BR>
of yours, why not live and let live, or at least keep you real thoughts to<BR>
yourself, and I'll keep mine.<BR>
<BR>
Replies to this off list will probably be killfiled, replies to the list<BR>
WILL DEFFINATELY be killfiled, so all-in-all why waste the bandwith, at<BR>
least if you send them to me there is a slight chance I'll read them.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Peters<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2563<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (rly-yg04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.4]) by air-yg01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:37:29 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:36:54 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA70854;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:35:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:33:02 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA70489<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:33:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:33:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006070033.UAA70489@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2563<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2564</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 7:32:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2564<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Mines vs UXB's<BR>
RE: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Brief Rant<BR>
Mosquito's<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
Re: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
Re: Border Wars (was Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:34:08 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>> >issue - even in daylight bombing - is one of bomb-load, and the British<BR>
>> >aviation industry was well-suited to putting up craft that would carry<BR>
>> >impressive loads to any target in Greater Germany.<BR>
><BR>
>And the German aviation industry was well-suited to knocking<BR>
>down the slow, vulnerable, lightly armored and poorly armed<BR>
>"Dicken Hunde" (Fat Dogs) even more impressively.<BR>
<BR>
  Most night-bomber kills were flak kills. Of course, that's a cop-out<BR>
of the first order, as ISTR reading that most a/c kills were due to<BR>
flak :>  But German night-fighters were a very expensive extra asset<BR>
that was less than stunningly successful during the war. Like almost<BR>
every other form of strategic warfare, they became simply another<BR>
arena in which attrition was endured at varying ratios of exchange;<BR>
the advantage was of course to the British as in almost all of the<BR>
high tech competitions with the Germans.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Given the performance of Me109s and 190s at high altitude,<BR>
>I'll take the B17 every time.  Its goes higher, faster, farther<BR>
>and its tougher.<BR>
<BR>
  As a daylight bomber, yes. For photo-recon or tactical support?<BR>
And they're _much_ (2-4x?) more logistically demanding/expensive.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:34:19 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
...<BR>
>> The problem is that the artillery usually stops shooting at the end of the<BR>
>> war, and the mines are still there.<BR>
><BR>
>So are unexploded shells, which tend to become more dangerous over time.<BR>
>Your point?<BR>
<BR>
  Unexploded shells tend to be less numerous, and _very_ easy to detect -<BR>
ooh, 15 kg of iron with, what, a 5 kg burster?<BR>
<BR>
  The mine issue that has become so popular in the last decade is the<BR>
very widespread use of cheap AP mines, which are harder to detect, and<BR>
also so widespread that many will claim victims before the locals own<BR>
assets can make much of a dent in them. <BR>
<BR>
  The numbers of French farmers killed by Great War left-overs is a<BR>
lot less than you might think (i.e., it doesn't make head-lines).<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>1st rule of artillery.  Shoot and scoot. Hence self-propelled guns.<BR>
>Further, artillery can usually fire a lot farther than armor (whose main<BR>
>guns are generally designed to kill other tanks).  Load that arty with<BR>
>high-tech copperheads and start killing grav tanks from a long way off.<BR>
>Those grav tanks will have to get right up on the arty, which is emplaced<BR>
>for indirect fire and well behind the FEBA.  You'll have to get through the<BR>
>enemy's defense in depth.  2nd rule of artillery.  Never deploy without<BR>
support.<BR>
<BR>
 i) laser tanks will range to the horizon at TL 9+.<BR>
 ii) PD can slaughter "high-tech copperheads" as fast as you can pump<BR>
them out.<BR>
 iii) artillery - especially that demanding close escort - is likely <BR>
going to be far less important in the big wars of the OTU than a lot<BR>
of us might prefer to believe; cost-benefit is going to be pretty<BR>
low, although a more than merely residual capability is going to be<BR>
useful just to keep the enemy honest, and to ensure that undefended<BR>
foes (poorly equipped, low-TL, or fragments separated from units)<BR>
can be neutralized at minimal cost.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:02:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> > Would you play a round of golf or five on a course that was seeded with<BR>
'1<BR>
> > year mines' five years ago ? Would you let your kids play in a<BR>
> > park that had<BR>
> > them seeded ten years ago ?<BR>
> ><BR>
> That would depend on how 'disposable' the mines are.  I am thinking in<BR>
terms<BR>
> the 3I.  Old mines can be identified by spots of lush vegetation as their<BR>
> explosives break down into fertilizer.<BR>
> With today's mines, probably not, but then I would want my children to<BR>
play<BR>
> in an area that had been bombed or hit by artillery fire.  As I recall,<BR>
some<BR>
> of the new limited lifespan mines are less hazardous than artillery beaten<BR>
> zones in terms of unexploded munitions.  (I'll try to find the source for<BR>
> this).<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> > The problem is that the artillery usually stops shooting at the end of<BR>
the<BR>
> > war, and the mines are still there.<BR>
><BR>
> So are unexploded shells, which tend to become more dangerous over time.<BR>
> Your point?<BR>
<BR>
The point is that unexploded bombs/shells tend to be much more deeply<BR>
embedded in the soil. Usually several feet, if not tens of feet, deep. They<BR>
don't have a sensitive trigger mechanism, designed to go off under<BR>
conditions readily achieved by everyday civilian activity. Usually,<BR>
unexploded bombs/shells are only uncovered by major construction or erosion<BR>
in coastal areas. Also, they tend to leave evidence of their presence at the<BR>
time of 'deployment'. eg a small but visible disturbance of the ground with<BR>
no evidence of an explosion.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the UXB's (UneXploded Bombs) in Britain were recorded shortly after<BR>
being dropped in WWII. Ones that were an obvious hazard were<BR>
removed/disabled/safely detonated at the time, the others (mainly in<BR>
countryside locations) were simply recorded and left. As the area they are<BR>
in is developed they are disabled.<BR>
<BR>
Compare that with minefields that are deliberately concealed, and shallowly<BR>
emplaced, with munitions in their thousands if not tens of thousands or<BR>
more. These are triggered by small children playing, farmers ploughing<BR>
fields, diving cars etc etc ad nauseum. You can drive a tractor over a field<BR>
containing UXB's with negligible chance of setting them of, even 60 years<BR>
after they were dropped.<BR>
<BR>
When was the last time you heard of a civilian casualty from a UXB? And the<BR>
last time from a mine? Now add up the civilians killed by accidentally<BR>
setting of UXB's worldwide each year. Now do the same for mines. I wouldn't<BR>
be surprised to find that mine casualties are a thousand times higher than<BR>
UXB casualties.<BR>
<BR>
Also, those statistics you mentioned for unexploding munitions (ie 'Duds')<BR>
may be comparing bombs that don't go off when dropped and mines that don't<BR>
go off when stepped on / driven over. I daresay that there *are* more dud<BR>
bombs than mines. But it isn't the dud mines that are killing civilians.<BR>
<BR>
And militarily, mines are of limited value. Ask Zhukov. His attitude to<BR>
minefields? Attack as if they weren't there. The casualties you suffer will<BR>
be no worse (and often much better...) than if that sector of the defenders<BR>
line was being more strongly held by regular defenses such as AT guns and<BR>
emplaced machine-guns etc.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:38:40 -0500 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> At 03:35 PM 6/6/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >5 out of 5 starbursts.<BR>
> <BR>
> Your $50 is in the mail.. oops, did I send this to the list? :)<BR>
<BR>
Neechevo.  We won't tell anyone...<BR>
<BR>
> Thanks for the kind words, but I have to ask, did we leave <BR>
> anything out<BR>
> that you would have liked to see?<BR>
<BR>
Don't know yet.  So far, I can't think of anything.  I plan to play at least one game (possibly two) this weekend.  After a very close reread and a couple of games, I'll be able to answer that question.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:09:42 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
...<BR>
>enemies ability to make war - THIS is was strategic bombing is all<BR>
>about, and it worked!  When you can no longer make ball bearings you can<BR>
>no longer make war machines!  The allies targeted industrial complexes<BR>
>that made war materials, not just the end item.<BR>
<BR>
  It's worth noting that while the German production lines couldn't<BR>
help but be discomfitted by rains of bombs, their losses were vastly<BR>
less than the cost to the Allies of causing them (even after allowing<BR>
for the vastly divergent sizes of the two sides economies, which is<BR>
still ignoring the point that some damage had to be done regardless<BR>
of cost - for both military & political reasons).<BR>
<BR>
  Production typically shut down a few hours before Allied ground <BR>
forces occupied the assembly halls :|<BR>
<BR>
>You have been discussing crew losses  - british crew loss was lower than<BR>
>the americans, but so was their probablity of a kill.  The american<BR>
>docterine - daylight bombing - was effective because you killed the<BR>
>target factory the first time not after multiple missions.  The USAF has<BR>
>a number of good articles on how daylight bombing was effective.<BR>
<BR>
  Said articles probably should be discussed on a science-fiction forum :)<BR>
The RAF/USAAF/USAF studies that claimed they won the war, etc., are at<BR>
best self-delusional or designed for budget debates; they have fairly<BR>
little credence amongst modern military historians, or so I understand.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: Fleet Intruders work! We need 500 AHL's on the Rim or we'll<BR>
have a war on our hands in ten years! Yeah, and another 300 facing the<BR>
Joes!! Could we hold off on a vote until after I contact my broker?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:09:51 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>>Subject: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
>...<BR>
>>> Having failed (again) at acheiving a primary objective, the US<BR>
>>> administration turns to CNN and the media to begin the long-term process<BR>
>>> of brainwashing the public and covering up their failures and mistakes.<BR>
>><BR>
>>What! a whole week without yank bashing?  Thanks, Henry, I was beginning to<BR>
>>feel like you foreigners had forgotten about us :)<BR>
<BR>
  280mega-lemmings, out of ~6 billion lemmings - so? If you're taking<BR>
issue with your fellow Americans characterization of the media treatment<BR>
of the "Gulf War" (gee, wasn't that the _`80's_?) as a brainwashing effort<BR>
(I'd be tempted to suggest white-wash, but the puns that might lead to...)<BR>
then you might want to choose better ground.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: the 3I is a government of principled men - they have no need<BR>
for mendacity or media manipulation. [NB - please see that this point<BR>
is expanded and made a mandatory part of all elementary education<BR>
programs in the Domain, and see if we can get it added to the Marine<BR>
indoctrination course; TJ, for DI].<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:20:53 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Mosquito's<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
><BR>
>He he ...I was thinking a way job, as in "I think I'll be waaaay over<BR>
>here" (points to, say, Australia on a map) "When the ME109's show up!"<BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, reminds of a book called "Terror in the Starboard Seat" - in <BR>
which he notes that the pilot's seat had some armour protection.<BR>
<BR>
  He was the navigator :)<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>> Ok, I can't spell today.  Make that 'wax' job.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> sheepishly, Tod<BR>
<BR>
  Oh gods, not the West Virginia thread _again_!  :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:22:20 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:37:30<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
...<BR>
>How?  The Third Frontier War lasted from 979-986.  Canonically, the Third<BR>
>War wasn't that much, just commerce raiding and a few battles.  If<BR>
>anything, the 3FW should have hastened the Solomani break, since Emperor<BR>
>Stryx was forced to abidicate at the end of the conflict.<BR>
><BR>
>Now, Even at Jump-4, the front lines of the Spinward Marches are at least<BR>
>two to three *years* from the Solomani Sphere.  The Rim War began in 990..<BR>
>only four years after the end of the 3FW.  How on Earth can you claim that<BR>
>the Frontier Wars delayed the Solomani War of Liberation?<BR>
<BR>
  It's worth discussing this in greater detail, but at first glance (OK,<BR>
it isn't...) it has merit. We know that both new (& expanded) production<BR>
as well as reserve draw-downs elsewhere would have been feeding the 3FW<BR>
front, _even if local command felt it needless_; given comm-lag, once a<BR>
war breaks out the necessary forces are going to be put in place, perhaps<BR>
especially once it's realized that the war start may have been premature<BR>
for the Zhos'.<BR>
<BR>
  Returning those reserves to their peace-time positions - and strengths -<BR>
is going to take at least 2-3 years from `86; allow time for absorbing<BR>
lessons and topping up logistics capabilities and `90 looks just about<BR>
right for closing down the rats-nest. Maybe :><BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:04:46 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
<BR>
on 6/6/00 5:02 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Compare that with minefields that are deliberately concealed, and shallowly<BR>
> emplaced, with munitions in their thousands if not tens of thousands or<BR>
<BR>
When I was in the service we were trained to map our minefields. You better<BR>
know where they are or they can come back to bite you in the rear.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> And militarily, mines are of limited value. Ask Zhukov. His attitude to<BR>
> minefields? Attack as if they weren't there. The casualties you suffer will<BR>
> be no worse (and often much better...) than if that sector of the defenders<BR>
> line was being more strongly held by regular defenses such as AT guns and<BR>
> emplaced machine-guns etc.<BR>
<BR>
One could probably do that in WWII.  Mines (and most other military weapons)<BR>
are much more destructive today, while the foot soldier hasn't changed at<BR>
all.  Interestingly, The Russians have been a huge producer of mines.  Why,<BR>
if they're not effective?<BR>
<BR>
As far as the danger of unexploded mines, I'll yield that one to you,<BR>
although I still think that given the technology available to the 3I, a time<BR>
limited render sage mine is possible.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:28:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The FFS2 design is a heavy cargo lifter. It's not an airframe hull - it<BR>
> takes of and lands like a rocket. It's similar to the second two thirds<BR>
> of what you describe - chemical rockets for initial liftoff, NTR for most<BR>
> of the final boost. It was less clear to me if this was rough-field capable<BR>
> (landing on dry grass with a rocket would be a mistake) but it could<BR>
> probably land on sand or rock.<BR>
<BR>
Not on sand. Unless the exhaust can *melt* the sand virtually<BR>
immediately, it'll sandblast the vicinity. <BR>
<BR>
>>but I suspect that by the time I finish cramming its hull with chunky,<BR>
>>clunky, Tech Level 9 hardware, it will end up sinking like a stone...<BR>
<BR>
> This may not actually be true. To be field-refuellable it'll have to be<BR>
> hydrogen burning - LH rocket fuel is very, very light.<BR>
<BR>
But very very *bulky*.<BR>
<BR>
Luckily, even the crude NERVA system Project Pluto built back in the<BR>
60s had twice the Isp of the best chemical rockets. And since mass<BR>
ratio is related to Isp by an *exponential* relationship, that means a<BR>
*huge* reduction.<BR>
<BR>
dV = Isp * 9.81 * ln(Mr)<BR>
dV / (Isp * 9.81) = ln(Mr)<BR>
Mr = e^(dV/(Isp*9.81)<BR>
<BR>
So that means that going from an Isp of 400+ to one of 800+ lowers your<BR>
mass ratio by a factor of 0.69. That means 30% more payload!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:39:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Just use the nuclear fission rocket. The solid core types *don't*<BR>
>> produce a noticeably radioactive exhaust, and with clever design you<BR>
>> *could* rig on to use atmospheric gases and supplement them with<BR>
>> onboard propellant when they got too thin.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> So it'd gradually shift from "nuclear jet" to "nuclear rocket" as the<BR>
>> altitude increased.<BR>
><BR>
> Didn't Steve Gallacci use a system like this in his "Albedo" RPG?<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall, my copy is rather buried.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:43:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>>Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
> ...<BR>
>>>Gazelles! :><BR>
>><BR>
>>  Crew them with undesirables, but don't explain _why_?<<BR>
>><BR>
>>ROFL<BR>
>>So the Imperium does use Convict "Battalions" of a sort?<BR>
>>Who are the officers then? Lieutenant's gone bad who want a chance at a<BR>
> comeback?<BR>
><BR>
>   Ah, there's undesirables and then there's _undesirables_ - you might <BR>
> be thinking of out and out incorrigibles, and others might look to the <BR>
> politically unreliable. I could do without the "too incompetent to have<BR>
> around, doesn't know it, and nobody else will do anything about it". :><BR>
<BR>
<whisper><BR>
<BR>
You mean Duke so-and-so's nephew?<BR>
<BR>
</whisper><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:46:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Warning *SPOILERS* ahead for Chalker's excellent 5-book Well World series<BR>
> and the less inspired (IMO) 3-book sequel series.  <BR>
><BR>
> <Leonard><BR>
> It's kind hard to explain. But basicly, there's a planet built around a<BR>
> computer. Said computer *runs* the Universe (that is, the rest of the<BR>
> Universe is the equivalent of a VR simulation run on the computer. A<BR>
> "holodeck" the size of the universe....<BR>
> </Leonard><BR>
><BR>
> Also, people would end up there from all over the universe and be<BR>
> "processed" into various different alien life-forms.  The Well World (The<BR>
> "Well of Souls", aka) was also a kind of cosmic preserve area, with small<BR>
> groups of each intelligent life form in the universe.  In that sense, the<BR>
> ringworld I came up with for my Year 0 Trav campaign (see previous post)<BR>
> was kinda like a cross between Niven's Ringworld and a Well World. <BR>
><BR>
> <Leonard><BR>
> at the equator. With the rest of the planet consisting of a bunch of<BR>
> habitats with differing conditions, each with hexagonal boundaries. In<BR>
> one hemisphere, the hexes are more or less earth-like. In the other,<BR>
> the environments are shall we say "rather more varied" :-)<BR>
> </Leonard><BR>
><BR>
> The "more normal" half was for carbon-based intelligent life forms (one<BR>
> per hex).  The other half was for all the different non-carbon types and<BR>
> so had some pretty bizarre habitats, not to mention life-forms!  Chalker<BR>
> was always great for coming up with really far-out aliens.  Not to mention<BR>
> great titles:  "Midnight at the Well of Souls" was just too cool sounding<BR>
> not to read.<BR>
><BR>
> <Leonard><BR>
> One of the things that varies between hexes is what technology works or<BR>
> doesn't work.<BR>
> </Leonard><BR>
><BR>
> IIRC, there were three levels, roughly equivalent to Stone Age, Steam Age<BR>
> and Electronic Age.<BR>
><BR>
> <Leonard><BR>
> There's a *lot* more than this, but reading the books is the best way<BR>
> to learn about the Well World.<BR>
> </Leonard><BR>
><BR>
> Yup, but make it the original series of 5 if you can.  The recent sequel<BR>
> trilogy was so-so.<BR>
<BR>
There's yet *another* set of Well World books. They're ok. They do *not*<BR>
have Nathan Brazil of Mavra Chang in them, though they are referred to<BR>
as the subject of "old legends".<BR>
<BR>
The first is "The Sea is Full of Stars". The second (which I'm reading)<BR>
is "Ghost of the Well of Souls". <BR>
<BR>
Be warned, the first doesn't resolve anything.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:28:26 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
>No, out in public.  Give us a reference to any official communication,<BR>
briefing, Ops Order or any reference in a history of the Gulf War to the<BR>
United States directing, as policy that the US goal was to remove Saddam<BR>
Hussein from power.  <<BR>
<BR>
Since when has every policy been announced publicly? Of course the<BR>
administration would deny it publicly, they aren't idiots. Does Hussein<BR>
publicly admit he was defeated during Desert Storm?<BR>
Given the depths to which you feel the U.S. has and is justified in sinking<BR>
I find it strains credulity that you would now claim assassination is too<BR>
low. I think it further strains credulity that you will claim it was never<BR>
discussed or sanctioned at the highest levels. So I challenge you to provide<BR>
proof in the form of JCoS and every Alphabet soup government intelligence<BR>
agency memos, minutes and other notes that it was never considered. You can<BR>
start with your bona fides for being a member of one or more of those groups<BR>
to start with. Since you can't, your belief of what they didn't do is no<BR>
more verifiable than my belief of what they did do behind closed doors.<BR>
<BR>
>Look at the battle plan, it ends with the 3rd Army facing away from<BR>
Baghdad!  The only thing screening that force was the 101st Air Assault and<BR>
good intentions.<<BR>
<BR>
Look at the number of missile strikes at Iraqi command centers and Hussein's<BR>
palaces. Remember the strike on Qaddafi's palace. Who is living in never<BR>
never land now?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:55:50 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (/AHL) production<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>Ah, there's undesirables and then there's _undesirables_ - you might<BR>
be thinking of out and out incorrigibles, and others might look to the<BR>
politically unreliable. I could do without the "too incompetent to have<BR>
around, doesn't know it, and nobody else will do anything about it". :><<BR>
<BR>
I got you now.<BR>
You have to be careful because you don't want to create a ready made pirate<BR>
crew, but just putting the schlemiels of the 57th century in them would<BR>
work.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:02:30 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
<BR>
>If you don't like having your opinions pummeled, you should keep<BR>
them in a nice, safe, private box instead of in a public forum.<BR>
It can be dangerous to one's opinions to share them with others.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<<BR>
<BR>
And if you don't like being exposed as an amoral idiot you should give up<BR>
your internet access. Not to mention your pathetic inability to stop begging<BR>
for more abuse in public.<BR>
Make up your mind.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:53:31 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars (was Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
> Didn't you say something about not being too cynical? :)<<BR>
<BR>
It keeps slipping out when I'm not watching.<BR>
Bad rampant cynicism, bad!<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
>The SRW at least was pretty clear-cut, in that both sides wanted as<BR>
great a military advance as possible - just that the possible dropped<BR>
out from beneath them and left the border near Terra. One has to wonder<BR>
if either the 3I or the Zho conservatives are really prepared for their<BR>
own side to win an Nth FW.<<BR>
<BR>
I doubt the Zho want to win at all. I think some people in the 3I know how<BR>
useless it is based on experiences with the reintegrated Solomani worlds in<BR>
the Rim. As for the rest, some people just don't learn.<BR>
<BR>
>And that train of thought would go a long way towards explaining the<BR>
stasis of the 3I/Aslan border - barring extermination or mass exodus,<BR>
there's no real solution to be had by conquering inhabited worlds that<BR>
belong to another species with a wholly alien culture (and we talk a<BR>
bit glibly about the very real problems of occupying remote corners of<BR>
Terra in the 1990's...!).<<BR>
<BR>
Very true.<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry wrote,<BR>
>How?  The Third Frontier War lasted from 979-986.  Canonically, the Third<BR>
War wasn't that much, just commerce raiding and a few battles.  If<BR>
anything, the 3FW should have hastened the Solomani break, since Emperor<BR>
Stryx was forced to abdicate at the end of the conflict.<<BR>
<BR>
Empress Margaret II revoked the charter in 940 and began reintegrating<BR>
worlds. (S11)<BR>
Emperor Styryx messed up the 3FW and abdicated.<BR>
Emperor Gavin inherited the Solomani Rim War, "already set in motion by his<BR>
father". (S8)<BR>
<BR>
Given the distances and strategic planning and time delay, I think it is<BR>
obvious CT canon has the SRW delayed by the 3FW. I'd need to check, but I<BR>
think that is amplified in the DGP Cats & Rats but I'd have to go digging<BR>
and I know that isn't universally accepted.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:30:35 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/6/00 5:34 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
> Unexploded shells tend to be less numerous, and _very_ easy to detect -<BR>
> ooh, 15 kg of iron with, what, a 5 kg burster?<BR>
> <BR>
> The mine issue that has become so popular in the last decade is the<BR>
> very widespread use of cheap AP mines, which are harder to detect, and<BR>
> also so widespread that many will claim victims before the locals own<BR>
> assets can make much of a dent in them.<BR>
> <BR>
> The numbers of French farmers killed by Great War left-overs is a<BR>
> lot less than you might think (i.e., it doesn't make head-lines).<BR>
<BR>
As I mentioned to another poster, I'll yield this one to you.  My point was<BR>
that given the technology available to the 3I, it should be possible to made<BR>
a short lived render safe mine.  This would be used as a force multiplier or<BR>
to fix or channelize enemy forces.  Mine fields are not effective against a<BR>
well prepared enemy, but they do slow him down.<BR>
> ...<BR>
>> 1st rule of artillery.  Shoot and scoot. Hence self-propelled guns.<BR>
>> Further, artillery can usually fire a lot farther than armor (whose main<BR>
>> guns are generally designed to kill other tanks).  Load that arty with<BR>
>> high-tech copperheads and start killing grav tanks from a long way off.<BR>
>> Those grav tanks will have to get right up on the arty, which is emplaced<BR>
>> for indirect fire and well behind the FEBA.  You'll have to get through the<BR>
>> enemy's defense in depth.  2nd rule of artillery.  Never deploy without<BR>
> support.<BR>
> <BR>
> i) laser tanks will range to the horizon at TL 9+.<BR>
<BR>
But not fire through terrain.  Hence the advantage of indirect fire.  I<BR>
would be a fool to place my guns in the open.  Instead, I would use terrain<BR>
masking, or prepare multiple dug in firing positions, and shuttle my guns<BR>
around.  I can also mask my positions (and false one) with prismatic<BR>
aerosol, it doesn't effect my guns.<BR>
<BR>
> ii) PD can slaughter "high-tech copperheads" as fast as you can pump<BR>
> them out.<BR>
<BR>
Pardon my ignorance, please explain PD.<BR>
<BR>
Assume my guns are of equivalent tech level.  Mass drivers, perhaps.  I can<BR>
pump out my high tech copperheads pretty fast.  And along the way I'm also<BR>
shooting lots of decoys and chaff.  My copperheads are stupid.  They ignore<BR>
anything smaller than a vehicle (like a decoy warhead), they just home in on<BR>
large metal objects, so they are cheap.  The decoys are even cheaper, nested<BR>
cones of metal, maybe 20 or 30 to a shell.  You don't know they are dummies<BR>
until the copperheads are released, they fall faster.  You've got an area<BR>
full of junk, some of which is very dangerous.  Which one do you target?<BR>
(hey, just for fun, lets throw in some prismatic aerosol with lots of WP for<BR>
smoke and to foul up those thermal imaging systems -- maybe some wild weasel<BR>
shells too).<BR>
<BR>
> iii) artillery - especially that demanding close escort - is likely<BR>
> going to be far less important in the big wars of the OTU than a lot<BR>
> of us might prefer to believe; cost-benefit is going to be pretty<BR>
> low, although a more than merely residual capability is going to be<BR>
<BR>
Cost benefit is what keeps artillery useful.  Shells are cheap.  With mass<BR>
drivers they are even cheaper.  Maybe I don't even need my copperheads.  I<BR>
use high angle fire and shells loaded with dozens of superdense penetrators.<BR>
Personally I like depleted uranium, hard, dense and pyrophoric. the rounds<BR>
are nice and cheap, so I buy lots of them (and I mean lots).  A bursting<BR>
charge opens the carrier at a preset altitude, and centripedal force<BR>
distributes them nicely.  Now it's raining lots and lots of VERY BAD THINGS.<BR>
Just hunks of metal, so electronic countermeasures are useless.<BR>
<BR>
Just so any infantry won't feel left out, we'll include some HE shells too.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, think I'll calculate this out. What system are you using to create<BR>
your laser tank?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, thanks for the comments.  This is interesting.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2564<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:32:19 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:31:45 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA75720;<BR>
	Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:30:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:30:37 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA75676<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:30:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:30:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006070230.WAA75676@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2564<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2565</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/6/00 10:13:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2565<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: non-SF Games<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
Re: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing <BR>
Re: Striker at Kristian Miller's starting 17 June 2000<BR>
Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
Re: geo-politics<BR>
Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
Re: UXB's<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:57:26 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
>>No, out in public.  Give us a reference to any official communication,<BR>
>briefing, Ops Order or any reference in a history of the Gulf War to the<BR>
>United States directing, as policy that the US goal was to remove Saddam<BR>
>Hussein from power.  <<BR>
><BR>
>Since when has every policy been announced publicly? Of course the<BR>
>administration would deny it publicly, they aren't idiots. Does Hussein<BR>
>publicly admit he was defeated during Desert Storm?<BR>
<BR>
In other words, you can not provide evidence to prove it, and we just have<BR>
to trust you on it.<BR>
<BR>
>Given the depths to which you feel the U.S. has and is justified in sinking<BR>
>I find it strains credulity that you would now claim assassination is too<BR>
>low. I think it further strains credulity that you will claim it was never<BR>
>discussed or sanctioned at the highest levels. So I challenge you to provide<BR>
>proof in the form of JCoS and every Alphabet soup government intelligence<BR>
>agency memos, minutes and other notes that it was never considered. You can<BR>
<BR>
In other words, you can not provide the evidence to prove it, and you want<BR>
to legitimatize yourself by calling on your critics to prove an opposite.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, does not work that way.<BR>
<BR>
>start with your bona fides for being a member of one or more of those groups<BR>
>to start with. Since you can't, your belief of what they didn't do is no<BR>
>more verifiable than my belief of what they did do behind closed doors.<BR>
><BR>
>>Look at the battle plan, it ends with the 3rd Army facing away from<BR>
>Baghdad!  The only thing screening that force was the 101st Air Assault and<BR>
>good intentions.<<BR>
><BR>
>Look at the number of missile strikes at Iraqi command centers and Hussein's<BR>
>palaces. Remember the strike on Qaddafi's palace. Who is living in never<BR>
>never land now?<BR>
<BR>
Command centers - legitimate target of war, due to use by the enemies' chain<BR>
of command, in this case, their military and internal security services.<BR>
Destruction of said installations will seriously impair the enemy<BR>
performance and efficiency to wage war..<BR>
<BR>
However, a campaign of destruction against enemy command centers does not<BR>
automatically lead to a campaign to kill the the leader of the nation state,<BR>
and given the fear of what the region would become if a power vacuum ensued<BR>
after the national leader was killed, it is clear the US never had as a goal<BR>
the killing of Saddam..<BR>
<BR>
The palaces could fall under annoyance and irritation of the national<BR>
leader.  IIRC, the US targeted Saddam's personal amusement park on that basis.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:02:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
Darth Sidious enters a large Sith Temple. He carries a large cage, Darth<BR>
Maul slumped inside. Behind the altar, is a middle-aged, plumpish man in a<BR>
Boba Fett T-Shirt.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : I wish to register a complaint.<BR>
<BR>
Jack Fanboy doesn't respond.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : Hello, ma'am?<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : What do you mean ma'am?<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : (Pause) I'm sorry, it's the Ysalamari. I wish to make a complaint.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : We're closing for lunch.<BR>
<BR>
Sidous : Never mind that, peasant. I wish to complain about this apprentice<BR>
I enlisted not 25 years ago at this very hidden Sith temple.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Oh yes, the, uh, the Zabrak Red... What's uh, what's wrong with it?<BR>
<BR>
Sidous : (Snarls) I'll tell you what's wrong with it. He's dead, that's<BR>
what's wrong with it.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : No, no, he's uh.. Resting.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : Look, servant, I know a dead apprentice when I see one, and I'm<BR>
looking at one right now.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : No, no, he's not dead, he's resting. Remarkable apprentice, the<BR>
Zabrak red, isn't he? Amazing tattoos!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : The tattoos don't enter into it. He's stone dead.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Nonononono! He's resting!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : All right then. If he's resting, then I'll wake him up.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : (Shouting at cage) Rise loyal servant! We must reveal ourselves to<BR>
the Jedi, at last we will have our..(Fanboy hits the cage)<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : There, he moved!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : No he didn't, that was you hitting the cage.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : I never!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : Yes you did!<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : I never, never did anything!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : (Yells, hits cage repeatedly) ARISE MAUL! Testing! Testing!<BR>
Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your Tatooine Noon wake up call!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : (Holds hands out, levitates Darth Maul out of cage slowly. Lifts<BR>
him into the air, and as soon as he ceases, the body falls into two parts,<BR>
collapsing onto the floor)<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : Now that's what I call a dead apprentice.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : No, no... No, he's just stunned!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : (Amazed) STUNNED?<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Yeah, you stunned him, just as he was waking up! Zabrak Reds stun<BR>
easily, milord.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : Now look, I've had enough of your insolence. That apprentice is<BR>
definitely deceased, and when I acquired him not 25 years hence, you assured<BR>
me that it's total lack of movement was due to it being exhausted after<BR>
slaying no less than thirty Jedi Knights.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Well, he's .. he's ah, probably pining for the Fjords.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : (enraged) PINING FOR THE FJORDS? Do you even know what that means?<BR>
Look, why did he fall into two pieces the moment a roughly trained flashy<BR>
Padawan with a fake accent took one swipe at him?<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : The Zabrak Red prefers fighting as a pair. Remarkable apprentice,<BR>
isn't it milord? Beautiful tattoos.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : I took the liberty of examining that apprentice when I got it<BR>
home, and I discovered the only reason it's torso was attached to it's waist<BR>
in the first place was that it had been STAPLED that way.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Well of course he was stapled together! If I hadn't stapled him<BR>
together, he would have threw aside his light sabre, cast aside his cloak,<BR>
split into a multitude, and VOOM!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : VOOM? This apprentice wouldn't "voom" if you focused the dying<BR>
screams of a whole planet through him! He's bleeding demised!<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Oh, no, he's pining!<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : He's not pining! He's passed on! This apprentice is no more! He<BR>
has ceased to be! He's become more powerful than we can possibly imagine!<BR>
He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peaces! If you hadn't stapled him<BR>
together, he'd have fallen down a power shaft! His mitichondriac processes<BR>
are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket! He's shuffled<BR>
off his mortal coil, run down the curtain, and joined Darth Bane in becoming<BR>
one with the dark side! THIS IS AN EX-APPRENTICE!<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Well, I'd better replace it then.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : (Takes quick peek behind the altar) Sorry milord, I've had a look<BR>
right around the back of the temple, and uh, we're right out of apprentices.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : (growling) What about you?<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Me, milord?<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : Yes you. I've not seen one with the audacity to attempt pulling<BR>
the wool over my eyes so blatantly. Tell me, do you ever give in to your<BR>
anger?<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : No. Yes. Yes, all the time.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : Is fear your ally?<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : Fear and surprise.<BR>
<BR>
Sidious : I see. (Turns, and begins to leave.) I'll be watching your career<BR>
with great interest. Great interest indeed.<BR>
<BR>
Fanboy : (Confused) Anytime milord.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 03:59:39 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
En Garde.<BR>
<BR>
I loved that game. It was particularly effective at<BR>
portraying the life of the<BR>
17th century swordsman. Come home from the campaigns,<BR>
fight some duels,<BR>
go fight a campaign, come home, fight some duels....<BR>
<BR>
How many games do you know where you can go from age 17<BR>
to retirement in<BR>
a single sitting.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:51 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: non-SF Games<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> What a great game - I even still play it.<BR>
><BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On<BR>
Behalf Of Ben<BR>
> > Aaronovitch<BR>
> > Sent: 06 June 2000 01:37<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: non-SF Games<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I remember playing En Garde (pre-Traveller) from<BR>
which...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:30:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>   Unexploded shells tend to be less numerous, and _very_ easy to detect -<BR>
> ooh, 15 kg of iron with, what, a 5 kg burster?<BR>
<BR>
I used to have a friend who had a 105 or 120mm shell minus the<BR>
explosive. It was *bronze*, not steel. And yes, I'm talking about the<BR>
part that goes out the barrel, *not* the part that gets ejected from<BR>
the breech after firing.<BR>
<BR>
So it's a *bit harder to find than a chunk of steel. <BR>
<BR>
And just *who* is going to walk all over those old battlefields with<BR>
metal detectors? Keeping in mind all the *junk* that will be causing<BR>
false alarms, as well as the *plastic* mines that may be lurking.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:35:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The point is that unexploded bombs/shells tend to be much more deeply<BR>
> embedded in the soil. Usually several feet, if not tens of feet, deep. They<BR>
> don't have a sensitive trigger mechanism, designed to go off under<BR>
> conditions readily achieved by everyday civilian activity. Usually,<BR>
> unexploded bombs/shells are only uncovered by major construction or erosion<BR>
> in coastal areas.<BR>
<BR>
Anyplace that has temps get below freezing at any depth will experience<BR>
the phenomenon of frost "uplifting" of buried objects. Including bombs<BR>
and shells. That's why farmers in many places have those stone walls<BR>
surrounding their fields. They hit a rock with the plow, carry it to<BR>
the edge of the field, and every year more rocks appear as deeper rocks<BR>
slowly work their way to the surface.<BR>
<BR>
> You can drive a tractor over a field<BR>
> containing UXB's with negligible chance of setting them of, even 60 years<BR>
> after they were dropped.<BR>
<BR>
*You* can. I'll watch from a safe distance. At least if youi are trying<BR>
to do so in the type of area I described above.<BR>
<BR>
> When was the last time you heard of a civilian casualty from a UXB?<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't make the US news. <BR>
<BR>
> And the last time from a mine?<BR>
<BR>
Only makes the news because there's the big campaign.<BR>
<BR>
> Now add up the civilians killed by accidentally<BR>
> setting of UXB's worldwide each year. Now do the same for mines. I wouldn't<BR>
> be surprised to find that mine casualties are a thousand times higher than<BR>
> UXB casualties.<BR>
<BR>
Of course. The mines are a thousand *or more* times as *common* as UXBs!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:41:34 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
<BR>
The Well World Series has to extra books :<BR>
<BR>
1.  Sea is full of Stars<BR>
2.  Ghost of the Well World<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 10:46 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Warning *SPOILERS* ahead for Chalker's excellent 5-book Well World<BR>
series<BR>
> > and the less inspired (IMO) 3-book sequel series.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <Leonard><BR>
> > It's kind hard to explain. But basicly, there's a planet built around a<BR>
> > computer. Said computer *runs* the Universe (that is, the rest of the<BR>
> > Universe is the equivalent of a VR simulation run on the computer. A<BR>
> > "holodeck" the size of the universe....<BR>
> > </Leonard><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Also, people would end up there from all over the universe and be<BR>
> > "processed" into various different alien life-forms.  The Well World<BR>
(The<BR>
> > "Well of Souls", aka) was also a kind of cosmic preserve area, with<BR>
small<BR>
> > groups of each intelligent life form in the universe.  In that sense,<BR>
the<BR>
> > ringworld I came up with for my Year 0 Trav campaign (see previous post)<BR>
> > was kinda like a cross between Niven's Ringworld and a Well World.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <Leonard><BR>
> > at the equator. With the rest of the planet consisting of a bunch of<BR>
> > habitats with differing conditions, each with hexagonal boundaries. In<BR>
> > one hemisphere, the hexes are more or less earth-like. In the other,<BR>
> > the environments are shall we say "rather more varied" :-)<BR>
> > </Leonard><BR>
> ><BR>
> > The "more normal" half was for carbon-based intelligent life forms (one<BR>
> > per hex).  The other half was for all the different non-carbon types and<BR>
> > so had some pretty bizarre habitats, not to mention life-forms!  Chalker<BR>
> > was always great for coming up with really far-out aliens.  Not to<BR>
mention<BR>
> > great titles:  "Midnight at the Well of Souls" was just too cool<BR>
sounding<BR>
> > not to read.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <Leonard><BR>
> > One of the things that varies between hexes is what technology works or<BR>
> > doesn't work.<BR>
> > </Leonard><BR>
> ><BR>
> > IIRC, there were three levels, roughly equivalent to Stone Age, Steam<BR>
Age<BR>
> > and Electronic Age.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <Leonard><BR>
> > There's a *lot* more than this, but reading the books is the best way<BR>
> > to learn about the Well World.<BR>
> > </Leonard><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Yup, but make it the original series of 5 if you can.  The recent sequel<BR>
> > trilogy was so-so.<BR>
><BR>
> There's yet *another* set of Well World books. They're ok. They do *not*<BR>
> have Nathan Brazil of Mavra Chang in them, though they are referred to<BR>
> as the subject of "old legends".<BR>
><BR>
> The first is "The Sea is Full of Stars". The second (which I'm reading)<BR>
> is "Ghost of the Well of Souls".<BR>
><BR>
> Be warned, the first doesn't resolve anything.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:48:03 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>I was very impressed by the British Dam Buster operations, and <BR>
>surprised that the tactic wasn't repeated - if not against dams,<BR>
>then against the hard-to-hurt U-Boat pens.  The mission had harsh<BR>
>casualties, but it was a first use of the tactic.<BR>
<BR>
  It's worth noting that pronging the mouth of a pen in a harbour<BR>
is a lot tougher under ideal conditions; the difference in flak<BR>
density (and early warning capability) would probably have been<BR>
decisive, too.<BR>
<BR>
  Ironically, there was a discussion recently of what would happen<BR>
if you put had a fish into a net over a pens mouth; the boat would<BR>
likely be kinda salvageable once it was back up and pumped dry :><BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:48:25 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker at Kristian Miller's starting 17 June 2000<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Striker at Kristian Miller's starting 17 June 2000<BR>
...<BR>
>If you are planning to play Striker with us, please send me<BR>
>an inventory of your miniatures, so that I can prepare<BR>
>tables of organization.  The inventory will also help us<BR>
>develop scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, I've got an embarrassingly large amount of spare micro-armour<BR>
lying around - if historical 1:300's are of any use to you as TL 6-8<BR>
units just tell me what you want and I'll ship some off to you?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:17:19 -0400<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
<BR>
At 07:04 PM 06/06/2000 -0700, Tod wrote:<BR>
><SNIP><BR>
>When I was in the service we were trained to map our minefields. You better<BR>
>know where they are or they can come back to bite you in the rear.<BR>
<BR>
Which, I understand, is the problem...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > And militarily, mines are of limited value. Ask Zhukov. His attitude to<BR>
> > minefields? Attack as if they weren't there. The casualties you suffer will<BR>
> > be no worse (and often much better...) than if that sector of the defenders<BR>
> > line was being more strongly held by regular defenses such as AT guns and<BR>
> > emplaced machine-guns etc.<BR>
><BR>
>One could probably do that in WWII.  Mines (and most other military weapons)<BR>
>are much more destructive today, while the foot soldier hasn't changed at<BR>
>all.  Interestingly, The Russians have been a huge producer of mines.  Why,<BR>
>if they're not effective?<BR>
<BR>
Zhukov was referring to the fact that the Germans didn't generally place <BR>
defensive minefields in unobserved locations. Unobserved minefields are <BR>
asking to be cleared and disarmed. The German defensive minefields were <BR>
almost always covered by MGs and artillery (OK - mortars, anyway) in kill <BR>
zones.<BR>
<BR>
Consider: the best shooting target you could possibly have is one who is on <BR>
tippy-toes, out in the open, clearing mines...<BR>
<BR>
Zhukov had a healthy respect for the things, as well as for his <BR>
troops.  His experience, though, was that if his troops took the time to <BR>
clear the mines, they'd be badly shot up by the covering German fire.  If <BR>
they had to cross minefields, the casualties they'd take simply crossing <BR>
and getting the heck out of the kill zone (mines + shooting) would <BR>
generally be lower than the casualties they would take due to German fire <BR>
alone (shooting only) if they stopped and cleared the mines.<BR>
<BR>
Why not go around the minefields instead?  Good plan, but defensive <BR>
minefields were generally placed to channel movement.  The mine-free zones <BR>
were even more heavily defended because that's where the Germans *hoped* <BR>
the Soviets would go...<BR>
<BR>
Certainly mines have become more lethal since WW II, but they were quite <BR>
enthusiastically lethal during WW II and for that matter, considering how <BR>
low-tech they were, during the Vietnam war!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:22:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
>On 6/6/2000 at 9:28 PM samwise1 wrote:<BR>
>Since when has every policy been announced publicly? Of course the<BR>
>administration would deny it publicly, they aren't idiots. Does Hussein<BR>
>publicly admit he was defeated during Desert Storm?<BR>
>Given the depths to which you feel the U.S. has and is justified in sinking<BR>
>I find it strains credulity that you would now claim assassination is too<BR>
>low. I think it further strains credulity that you will claim it was never<BR>
>discussed or sanctioned at the highest levels. So I challenge you to provide<BR>
>proof in the form of JCoS and every Alphabet soup government intelligence<BR>
>agency memos, minutes and other notes that it was never considered. You can<BR>
>start with your bona fides for being a member of one or more of those groups<BR>
>to start with. Since you can't, your belief of what they didn't do is no<BR>
>more verifiable than my belief of what they did do behind closed doors.<BR>
<BR>
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! <BR>
that was the funniest piece of nonsense I have ever seen as a response....it deserves no other commentary.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:37:44 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> >Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >> The problem is that the artillery usually stops shooting at the end of the<BR>
> >> war, and the mines are still there.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >So are unexploded shells, which tend to become more dangerous over time.<BR>
> >Your point?<BR>
><BR>
>   Unexploded shells tend to be less numerous, and _very_ easy to detect -<BR>
> ooh, 15 kg of iron with, what, a 5 kg burster?<BR>
><BR>
>   The mine issue that has become so popular in the last decade is the<BR>
> very widespread use of cheap AP mines, which are harder to detect, and<BR>
> also so widespread that many will claim victims before the locals own<BR>
> assets can make much of a dent in them.<BR>
><BR>
>   The numbers of French farmers killed by Great War left-overs is a<BR>
> lot less than you might think (i.e., it doesn't make head-lines).<BR>
><BR>
> ...<BR>
> >1st rule of artillery.  Shoot and scoot. Hence self-propelled guns.<BR>
> >Further, artillery can usually fire a lot farther than armor (whose main<BR>
> >guns are generally designed to kill other tanks).  Load that arty with<BR>
> >high-tech copperheads and start killing grav tanks from a long way off.<BR>
> >Those grav tanks will have to get right up on the arty, which is emplaced<BR>
> >for indirect fire and well behind the FEBA.  You'll have to get through the<BR>
> >enemy's defense in depth.  2nd rule of artillery.  Never deploy without<BR>
> support.<BR>
><BR>
>  i) laser tanks will range to the horizon at TL 9+.<BR>
>  ii) PD can slaughter "high-tech copperheads" as fast as you can pump<BR>
> them out.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
How does PD cope with cluster munitions? small bomblets designed to scrub off<BR>
sensors/pd/reactive armour systems?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:48:18 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
...<BR>
>>  Under CT rules (Striker, and yes, CT _does_ rule :> ) your smallest<BR>
>>unit (TL: F) is 500 kg, 500L, and Cr 1,000,000. Your mil-bot is now an<BR>
>>OGRE Mk. I or thereabouts...<BR>
><BR>
>Because I added a Cr 50,000 (under G:T) meson communicator? Heck the U.S.<BR>
<BR>
  Whoa! I get all of the G:T stuff for use as supplements, but that doesn't<BR>
mean that CT material isn't the Correct source for what's _supposed_ to be<BR>
possible in the OTU :)<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>That makes it Cr 13,000 for equipment. It will be a bit more if we expect<BR>
>him to fight in space or on a vacuum world. And we still haven't paid to<BR>
>train the poor sap. Or fed him. Or got him a place to live when he's not in<BR>
>the field.<BR>
<BR>
  And a Zho-bot (a pretty minimal unit, BTW) by 3I standards would run over<BR>
KCr 200, and that only for an Int of 6. And that Imp-bot still needs techs,<BR>
who need clothes, and training, and guards, etc.<BR>
<BR>
  At that point we start to ask whether the society of the 3I _wants_ Low<BR>
Autonomous, Full Command warbots with Intelligence scores of 9+; if not,<BR>
is what they're willing to accept genuinely worth having, allowing for the<BR>
availability of plenty of volunteers and sufficient dumb-bot "smart" weapons?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:48:23 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: geo-politics<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
><BR>
>Bill Dunn wrote:<BR>
>>This I don't agree with. The cold war was unnecessary even given the <BR>
>>information available to the US at the time. The Army intelligence <BR>
>>groups knew the Russians were pretty exhausted from their fight of the <BR>
>>Germans, it was the civilian, red-scare-happy intelligence services that <BR>
>>whipped up the threat<BR>
><BR>
>How long did the Russian exhaustion last?  <BR>
<BR>
  About fifty years so far :)<BR>
<BR>
>There were excesses and paranoia during the cold war, certainly.<BR>
>I don't know what level of response would have been as effective.  <BR>
>Would the Soviet bloc have polarized so far from the western bloc if<BR>
>the west had been less confrontational, or would the Soviets have<BR>
>taken a cue from their old enemies (Nazi Germany) and taken all they<BR>
>could get until the west stopped backing down?<BR>
<BR>
  It's worth pointing out that the Soviets (or Stalin, take your pick)<BR>
kept to the letter of their agreements - expecting them to allow the<BR>
installation of a hostile regime in Warsaw was a bit much. But they got<BR>
out of Austria, China, and the appropriate portions of the Balkans - in<BR>
those cases where they ensured that the successor regimes were friendly<BR>
they at least weren't shocking anyone familiar with realpolitik.<BR>
<BR>
  Mis-reading of others intentions certainly has interesting <BR>
results, which at least in a game is fairly innocent.<BR>
<BR>
  "Hmm, the Solomani Sphere seems somehow _larger_ than last year..."<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:12:27 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
...<BR>
>When was the last time you heard of a civilian casualty from a UXB? And the<BR>
>last time from a mine? Now add up the civilians killed by accidentally<BR>
>setting of UXB's worldwide each year. Now do the same for mines. I wouldn't<BR>
>be surprised to find that mine casualties are a thousand times higher than<BR>
>UXB casualties.<BR>
<BR>
  Probably worse than that, once you allow for war-time - people know <BR>
enough to stay away from dud mortar shells, but the mine is always<BR>
there. Of course, it's when people don't have a choice about being<BR>
near _live_ incoming mortar fire that things get sickening.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:12:32 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: UXB's<BR>
<BR>
>>  The numbers of French farmers killed by Great War left-overs is a<BR>
>>lot less than you might think (i.e., it doesn't make head-lines).<BR>
...<BR>
> You can drive a tractor over a field<BR>
>containing UXB's with negligible chance of setting them of, even 60 years<BR>
>after they were dropped.<BR>
<BR>
  It's the plow that makes the difference :|<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav?  Sooner or later, you can have the PC's run across <BR>
a defunct missile/warhead, and see what the fools get up to.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:12:39 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Border Wars (was Strategic Bombing)<BR>
...<BR>
>>The SRW at least was pretty clear-cut, in that both sides wanted as<BR>
>great a military advance as possible - just that the possible dropped<BR>
>out from beneath them and left the border near Terra. One has to wonder<BR>
>if either the 3I or the Zho conservatives are really prepared for their<BR>
>own side to win an Nth FW.<<BR>
><BR>
>I doubt the Zho want to win at all. I think some people in the 3I know how<BR>
>useless it is based on experiences with the reintegrated Solomani worlds in<BR>
<BR>
  That was my point - many Zho's would be horrified if the 3I _did_ fold<BR>
up and go home with their toys. OTOH, some Expansionists would take it as<BR>
a sign that they should push harder, although being Zho's they'd probably<BR>
spend a century or more consolidating - and learning that the Vargr were<BR>
now _their_ problem :><BR>
<BR>
>the Rim. As for the rest, some people just don't learn.<BR>
<BR>
  Can you repeat for me? :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2565<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (rly-ye03.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.200]) by air-ye04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:13:16 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:13:02 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id BAA82199;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:12:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:12:00 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id BAA82128<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:11:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:11:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006070511.BAA82128@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2565<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2566</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 2:58:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2566<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
Humour?<BR>
So much for jump drives...<BR>
Re: mines<BR>
Re: ground combat<BR>
Re: ground combat<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye OT: (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
RE: ON Topic: Bragging<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
Re: Warbots<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
RE: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:12:44 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Mines vs UXB's<BR>
><BR>
>on 6/6/00 5:02 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
...<BR>
>> Compare that with minefields that are deliberately concealed, and shallowly<BR>
>> emplaced, with munitions in their thousands if not tens of thousands or<BR>
><BR>
>When I was in the service we were trained to map our minefields. You better<BR>
>know where they are or they can come back to bite you in the rear.<BR>
<BR>
  Most Third World combatants don't have much of a clue what's where, <BR>
forget having maps useful for removal - another side-effect of "low-<BR>
intensity" conflicts. Needless to say it's lost on the activists that<BR>
properly marked minefields a la WW2 (or the DMZ in Korea) aren't much<BR>
of a threat to civilians - well, compared to a war going on, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:54:07 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Humour?<BR>
<BR>
> Does Hussein publicly admit he was defeated during Desert Storm?<BR>
<BR>
  _Hussein was defeated_??<BR>
<BR>
  (a la "Senator Brea is _dead_?")<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:54:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
Subject: So much for jump drives...<BR>
<BR>
http://www.theonion.com/<BR>
<BR>
See the first 'News in Brief' item.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html<BR>
 --*--  "You live in Los Angeles, and you are going to Reseda; we are<BR>
   |   all in some way or another going to Reseda someday, to die."<BR>
               - Soul Coughing<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:55:01 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: mines<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
...<BR>
>that given the technology available to the 3I, it should be possible to made<BR>
>a short lived render safe mine.  This would be used as a force multiplier or<BR>
>to fix or channelize enemy forces.  Mine fields are not effective against a<BR>
>well prepared enemy, but they do slow him down.<BR>
<BR>
  The bang for the buck would go down, but how about a mine whose charge<BR>
was binary liquid artillery propellant? - it mixes in its sealed interior<BR>
when deployed, and then outgasses slowly through the shell - if do-able<BR>
then it's lifespan could be a factor of how quickly the shell was meant<BR>
to "leak". And even if the fail-safe timer fuze decides to be patient, a<BR>
year on site might mean an empty main charge?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:34:26 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
...<BR>
>> i) laser tanks will range to the horizon at TL 9+.<BR>
><BR>
>But not fire through terrain.  Hence the advantage of indirect fire.  I<BR>
>would be a fool to place my guns in the open.  Instead, I would use terrain<BR>
>masking, or prepare multiple dug in firing positions, and shuttle my guns<BR>
>around.  I can also mask my positions (and false one) with prismatic<BR>
>aerosol, it doesn't effect my guns.<BR>
<BR>
  High energy (plasma/fusion) beams will do the same, although bigger<BR>
weapons will be needed against even decently armoured targets at the<BR>
longest ranges. And yes, terrain will block fire :)<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Assume my guns are of equivalent tech level.  Mass drivers, perhaps.  I can<BR>
<BR>
  At least under Striker (CT) MD's are best either for AT weapons (low ROF)<BR>
or for rapid-fire auto-mortars - possibly also low ROF howitzers against<BR>
undefended targets (great range and striking power); the power draw for a<BR>
combined high ROF and high mass projectile weapon are simply staggering.<BR>
<BR>
  A decent Point Defense system at (ForEx) TL C will score 10d6 (i.e., 10-60)<BR>
hits on indirect fire rounds per 30 second game turn - assuming that you've<BR>
hooked it up to a respectable weapon (a beam laser with a penetration around<BR>
24 = ~8.5cm/steel works for me - a main gun is legal, though...) then there's<BR>
no reason not to suppose that each hit isn't a kill.<BR>
<BR>
  So worst case, a single PD hull can put down almost 20 rounds from an <BR>
MLRS battery strike :(<BR>
<BR>
>pump out my high tech copperheads pretty fast.  And along the way I'm also<BR>
>shooting lots of decoys and chaff.  My copperheads are stupid.  They ignore<BR>
<BR>
  Your Copperheads are a lot smarter than the RL one, which were "only"<BR>
laser-guided, IIRC. Laser-guided shells are +Cr 200 by TL C, while your<BR>
Target Memory seekers are at least +Cr 6800 per round.<BR>
<BR>
>anything smaller than a vehicle (like a decoy warhead), they just home in on<BR>
>large metal objects, so they are cheap.  The decoys are even cheaper, nested<BR>
<BR>
  It's not clear that they'd be immune to the ECM/EW suite. Probably not.<BR>
<BR>
>cones of metal, maybe 20 or 30 to a shell.  You don't know they are dummies<BR>
>until the copperheads are released, they fall faster.  You've got an area<BR>
>full of junk, some of which is very dangerous.  Which one do you target?<BR>
<BR>
  In well under a second the Point Defense fire control - using radar or<BR>
electronic optics - will figure out which of the shapes are "empties" -<BR>
this sort of gadget was suggested early by the anti-SDI folks, and was<BR>
pretty quickly (i.e., instantly) disregarded as not workable.<BR>
<BR>
>(hey, just for fun, lets throw in some prismatic aerosol with lots of WP for<BR>
>smoke and to foul up those thermal imaging systems -- maybe some wild weasel<BR>
>shells too).<BR>
<BR>
  Will the weasels be powering hamster-wheel generators? :)<BR>
<BR>
  I don't think you're seriously suggesting that you can literally darken<BR>
the sky above the battlefield with obscurants? This isn't to say that the<BR>
target of choice can't be overwhelmed, but that doing so on a routine<BR>
basis will only occur if one side somehow has a truly massive materiel<BR>
advantage and wants to avoid any casualties.<BR>
<BR>
  Launching an EW drone with your scatter-pack^h^hwrong game - that's<BR>
gonna be a mighty expensive piece of hardware - and if not, then the<BR>
capabilities of the tanks suite are going to be amazing.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Cost benefit is what keeps artillery useful.  Shells are cheap.  With mass<BR>
>drivers they are even cheaper.  Maybe I don't even need my copperheads.  I<BR>
>use high angle fire and shells loaded with dozens of superdense penetrators.<BR>
>Personally I like depleted uranium, hard, dense and pyrophoric. the rounds<BR>
>are nice and cheap, so I buy lots of them (and I mean lots).  A bursting<BR>
>charge opens the carrier at a preset altitude, and centripedal force<BR>
>distributes them nicely.  Now it's raining lots and lots of VERY BAD THINGS.<BR>
>Just hunks of metal, so electronic countermeasures are useless.<BR>
<BR>
  Note that the velocity of such projectiles is pretty much guaranteed to<BR>
be uninspring, and that a _grav-tank_ will be able to scoot out of the<BR>
beaten zone fairly easily. Saturation with 15-30 second flight times starts<BR>
to become pretty scary for your logistics people. And your bankers :><BR>
<BR>
  Cluster bombs already necessitate thicker deck armours; depending on TL<BR>
capabilities we get grav-tanks ranging from 8" to 60" of steel plate <BR>
equivalent roofs (Striker).<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm, think I'll calculate this out. What system are you using to create<BR>
>your laser tank?<BR>
<BR>
  Striker (I; CT).<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:34:45 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
>From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
...<BR>
>How does PD cope with cluster munitions? small bomblets designed to scrub off<BR>
>sensors/pd/reactive armour systems?<BR>
<BR>
  Presumably by zapping the bus before deployment - all sorts of 0.5-<BR>
2kg bomblets are going to wander all over creation if dispersed at<BR>
3000 m or more.<BR>
<BR>
  And add deck armour, just in case :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:34:55 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
...<BR>
>And just *who* is going to walk all over those old battlefields with<BR>
>metal detectors? Keeping in mind all the *junk* that will be causing<BR>
>false alarms, as well as the *plastic* mines that may be lurking.<BR>
<BR>
  We've got this Duke's nephew who miraculously survived the crash<BR>
of his gunboat command...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:08:41 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>And when did German production stop? not slow, stop totally because of the<BR>
>bombings? And how much was used up to stop how much production with slow<BR>
>downs? If more was put into the effort, or less was gained for the effort<BR>
>than other strategic plans, then the campaign was  failure.<BR>
>Or don't loss rations matter in this analysis?<BR>
<BR>
  On the combined points of attrition and political necessity (i.e., sit<BR>
with thumbs up butts long enough and the Sovs make a separate peace?) it<BR>
was probably worthwhile. The air-enthusiasts were of course suggesting<BR>
that it was a good idea purely on its decisive military merits, but if<BR>
they were expected to be accurate and disinterested observers then human<BR>
nature has changed drastically in the last 50 years.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>You do it at night you can only kill civilians effectively.<BR>
>You do it during the day you can only kill your own bomber crews effectively.<BR>
<BR>
  Succinctly put :|  Sadly accurate too, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>>4E heavies could do real damage to military targets by daylight if unopposed,<BR>
>and the threat of same tied down vital resources - the same "fleet-(ship)-in-<BR>
>being" principle that made Tirpitz the most popular carnival milk bottle of<BR>
>WW2, and that makes the first AHL-type to be produced the most "valuable".<<BR>
><BR>
>"Unopposed" and "force-in-being" being the two critical factors here. Since<BR>
>they were employed in neither capacity I thank you for again supporting my<BR>
>position.<BR>
<BR>
  The night-bombing campaign forces fighter assets to be deplyed regardless,<BR>
as evidence of their lack can easily lead to day-time strikes before the<BR>
defences can be reinforced, and the Allied bomber forces maintained the <BR>
"force-in-being" threat throughout, except perhaps immediately after their<BR>
more spectacular failures like Berlin & Schweinfurt/Regensburg.<BR>
<BR>
>>But heavy bomber interdiction of Japanese rear areas was going to be<BR>
>crucial to the initial landing program. Making those flyers into more<BR>
...<BR>
>But flying from carriers they could reach anywhere in Japan.<BR>
<BR>
  Not in sufficient numbers with sufficient bomb-loads to deliver<BR>
the damage considered necessary - by LeMay. Yes, carrier strikes<BR>
in profusion would have gutted what was left of Japanese maritime<BR>
capabilities; they wouldn't have settled the war before late `46.<BR>
<BR>
>And lets get back to Japan starving from a total interdiction. Why invade if<BR>
>a blockade would take out 75% of the population in 2 years anyway? It is not<BR>
>like there was anyone else left to fight.<BR>
>That's right, no glory in winning a siege. Silly me, I thought war was about<BR>
>more than glory.<BR>
<BR>
  And Japanese civilians (and Allied POW's) starving to death in <BR>
their millions is a good thing in this context?<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm not sure that USAAF casualties in bombing Japan were very high,<BR>
>and certainly not by ETO standards; navigational errors were more of<BR>
>a risk than Japanese defences by mid-`45, IIRC.<<BR>
><BR>
>I meant the men thrown away taking a piece of junk island like Iwo Jima, not<BR>
>the bomber crews.<BR>
<BR>
  I suspect that the Marines that would have been scheduled for the<BR>
Kyushu beaches would have considered it a good deal if it meant that<BR>
Japanese responses to their beach-heads were going to be crippled by<BR>
bombers flying from those islands (incl. Okinawa).<BR>
<BR>
>>Trying to burn out Japanese cities as an easier approach than trying<BR>
>to hit small targets with sufficient HE was of highly dubious morality,<BR>
>although militarily it seems to have been a good guess.<<BR>
><BR>
>But they didn't surrender because of the firebombing so it wasn't really a<BR>
>good guess. That leaves only the dubious morality.<BR>
<BR>
  And the reduced production - that is unquestionable. The necessity<BR>
is unclear, but the USAAF had its own objectives by this time.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>As I keep trying to point out. Further, since there were heavy casualties<BR>
>they obviously didn't have the right weapons for the jobs.<BR>
>I will concede that not having a few divisions of FlaK 88s was useful, but<BR>
>how useful compared to the dead bomber crews?<BR>
<BR>
  Ask the Soviets, or the Western troops in Fortress Europe.<BR>
And the right weapons don't preclude heavy casualties - that <BR>
demands a near-prostrate opponent, which is asking a bit much.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Reminds me of a comment H. Beam Piper once made about the disregard for<BR>
>casualties most non-military men wargamers have.<BR>
<BR>
  The general in "Uller Uprising", IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:34:54 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye OT: (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Douglas Berry wrote,<BR>
> >>No it WASN'T.  I will pay you $50,000 if you can produce *one* piece of<BR>
> >evidence where our leadership or the UN made the removal of the sitting<BR>
> >Iraqi government part of the military mission objectives.<<BR>
<BR>
> >Do you want a private response to this as well?<BR>
> <BR>
> No, out in public.  Give us a reference to any official communication,<BR>
> briefing, Ops Order or any reference in a history of the Gulf War to the<BR>
> United States directing, as policy that the US goal was to remove Saddam<BR>
> Hussein from power.  <BR>
<BR>
Logically absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that it is unlikely that this was made part of the<BR>
military mission objectives. It seems to me that the fact that <BR>
this was not achieved is strong evidence that this was not a <BR>
military mission objective. I believe that if it had been a <BR>
military mission objective it would have been achieved.<BR>
<BR>
> Yopu won't find it, because it never hapened.  We went in with two goals.<BR>
> Remove the Iraqis from Kuwait, and keep Israel from intervening.  We<BR>
> succeeded on both measures. <BR>
<BR>
After these two objectives were achieved so handily another <BR>
objective could have been added but was not. It is my understanding <BR>
that the removal of Saddam Hussein from power was discussed by<BR>
the Bush White House but was not made a military mission<BR>
objective. As no Congressional Declaration of War exists it<BR>
is difficult to say what Congressional desires were.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:39:21 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
"Katharine [Ian] Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> One of the issues is 'How much does infantry cost, anyway ?'.<BR>
> I suspect that many lo-tech poor worlds will export reasonably cheap<BR>
> soldiers, in a similar way to the Ghurkas and, I guess, Appalachian<BR>
> Mountains and Deep South exported soldiers for so long.<BR>
> Needless to say, they will probably be equipped to higher-tech standards,<BR>
> and quite possibly get their support and maintainence elements from<BR>
> higher-tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
> My guess is that for a years salary down, plus transport, plus pay per month<BR>
> will get you a soldier. Assuming long service professionals cost KCr 20 a<BR>
> year, and you have to ship them twelve parsecs at Cr 500 per parsec<BR>
> (travelling third class - a half dton bunk ; see GT FT cargo rates, not the<BR>
> FUBAR traditional ones), and the world you are hiring them from has a<BR>
> currency that trades for half the value of yours, then I'd guess that the<BR>
> soldier costs you KCr 20/2 + 0.5*6, or KCr 13, plus KCr 10 per year.<BR>
> Given that kit should cost about KCr 50 (CE suit, ACR, laser comm, bunch of<BR>
> RAM grenades, their share of a very cheap grav APC), then a theoretical<BR>
> warbot has to cost about this amount.<BR>
<BR>
How much does it cost to train said soldiers? How much will you<BR>
spend per year maintaining that training readiness. What are<BR>
your medical costs of treating wounded soldiers and how do<BR>
these compare to costs of repairing or replacing damaged<BR>
robots? What are your other costs related to use of human<BR>
soldiers (recruiting, fringe benefits, pensions, etc)? How<BR>
many years will human soldiers stay in service so you can recoup<BR>
said costs and how does this compare to the operational<BR>
life span of a robot at the same TL? What are the political<BR>
consequences to your government if they choose to use sophont<BR>
troops?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:51:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> > Completely off-topic, but you lot are probably the best people<BR>
> > to understand how this feels.<BR>
><BR>
> Hey, it's about SF, so it's more on topic than many rants around here<BR>
> :-)<BR>
<BR>
Well, the convention was SF, the story is closer to fantasy <grin><BR>
<BR>
> > I got my first story published in the New Zealand National<BR>
> > Science Fiction convention book over the weekend , along<BR>
> > with an "Honourable Mention" in the short story competition.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
><BR>
> *applause*<BR>
><BR>
> Congratulations!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
> > For those that are interested, I also got to prop up the bar with Sean<BR>
> > McMullen (an Aussie writer) and Tad Wiliams ( "Tailchaser's<BR>
> > Song", "Memory, Sorrow & Thorn"; & "OtherLand").<BR>
><BR>
> Haven't heard of McMullen.<BR>
<BR>
McMullen has just released "Souls in the Great Machine" (Tor, ISBN<BR>
0-312-87055-8) which takes "steam-punk" to it's ultimate conclusion. Imagine<BR>
a computer in which all the components are humans with abaci, arranged and<BR>
organized to carry out masively parallel calculations.<BR>
<BR>
Wonderful passages, like when the comptroller takes out some "faulty"<BR>
components and has them shot for treason. Wouldn't you like to do that to<BR>
your computer sometimes ?<BR>
<BR>
> but a friend is trying to force me to read<BR>
> OtherLand in my (lack of) spare time. He says it's great.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't read it yet, but the reading he gave certainly made it sound worth<BR>
reading.<BR>
<BR>
> Must be nice to be put in the same context as that author.<BR>
<BR>
He's a nice guy, and we had a discussion about the idea of providing free<BR>
internet access as a basic right, and the "Digital Divide", something<BR>
touched on by OtherLand. He's been online since the mid-eighties, which is a<BR>
lot longer than most authors.<BR>
<BR>
And Sean is manager of a super-computing centre is Australia, so exchanging<BR>
"support call" stories was fun.<BR>
<BR>
The other fun thing was all the guys from Weta Studios who were at the con<BR>
(Weta is doing CGI for Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings). And one of the<BR>
founding Weta guys was talking to Tad about a project based on something of<BR>
his, but I probably shouldn't say too much about that just yet <grin>.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:01:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
tc wrote :<BR>
> >"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
> > I got my first story published in the New Zealand National<BR>
> > Science Fiction convention book over the weekend , along<BR>
> > with an "Honourable Mention" in the short story competition.<BR>
><BR>
> Congratulations!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks !<BR>
<BR>
> Are we going to be allowed to know what it was (or have a run down on the<BR>
> plot) in the absence of being able to get hold of the whole thing.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it's a very short story that, to enter the competition, had to start<BR>
with the words "It was a dark & stormy knight... "<BR>
<BR>
I basically just re-tell a very old joke, so there is no real plot as such.<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, it's not a work I'm hugely proud of, knocked it off in about three<BR>
or four hours, but it's still my first fiction in print, even if it is just<BR>
a fan publication.<BR>
<BR>
It is theoretically going up on the convention web site at some point , and<BR>
I'll post it on mine when I get round updating my site. I'll let you know.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> Seriously, well done.  I hope this is just the first of many...<BR>
<BR>
So do I !<BR>
Though I'll have to get writing for thast to happen !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:06:05 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney wrote:<BR>
> At 9:14 -0400 6/6/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
> > I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science<BR>
Fiction<BR>
> > convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in<BR>
the<BR>
> > short story competition.<BR>
> >I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
<BR>
>Congratulations!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
> I still remember the buzz I got when I saw my name on 101 Lifeforms.<BR>
><BR>
> >For those that are interested, I also got to prop up the bar with Sean<BR>
> >McMullen (an Aussie writer) and Tad Wiliams ( "Tailchaser's<BR>
> Song", "Memory,Sorrow & Thorn"; & "OtherLand").<BR>
<BR>
> Shame you couldn't persuade Mr Williams to hurry up with the Third<BR>
> book in the OtherLand sequence. I haven't been so annoyed in a long<BR>
> time as when I got to the end of the first one and realised it was<BR>
> part of a trilogy. A good book, none-the-less, I just have an inbuilt<BR>
> dislike of trilogies.<BR>
<BR>
"Otherland Vol. III : Mountain of Black Glass" came out in September 1999.<BR>
It's book IV that hasn't come out yet.<BR>
<BR>
Tad has relatively recently become a father, and as anyone with children<BR>
knows, this can seriously upset your routine, so volume IV may be aways off.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:10:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote :<BR>
><BR>
> > I got my first story published in the New Zealand<BR>
> > National Science Fiction convention book over the<BR>
> > weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in the<BR>
> > short story competition.<BR>
><BR>
> Woo-Hoo!<BR>
><BR>
> >I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
><BR>
> Isn't that a great feeling?<BR>
<BR>
I was really surprised when it happened, but yeah, it was certainly an ego<BR>
boost.<BR>
I think I'll always remember the name of the person who asked for it.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:46:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: ON Topic: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
> Well done to Frank Pitt!  Congrats on getting published, and on<BR>
> your honorable mention.  What would Traveller be without Science<BR>
> Fiction writers, and Science Fiction needs new voices.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Walt, though I have to admit this particular work was fantasy not SF.<BR>
<BR>
I do have a work in progress based on a planet of insect-like creatures that<BR>
communicate by scent, so when I have a better description of the concept, I<BR>
may throw it onto the list for you guys to pick apart.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:55:36 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote :<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/6/00 5:41 AM, katts@globalfreeway.com.au issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > organic heavy weapons (the Rappoteur was an example<BR>
> > from FS - a man-portable 4 MJ emplaced plasma bazooka).<BR>
><BR>
> What is the term "organic" indicating here?<BR>
<BR>
"Part of the organization"<BR>
<BR>
Standard term for weaponry and units that are normally part of a larger<BR>
unit's roster, as opposed to stuff which is attached for a particular<BR>
purpose or for a limited time.<BR>
<BR>
For instance the US Marines have "organic" air support in the form of their<BR>
own AV8B(?)Harriers, whereas most ground forces rely on the airforce for air<BR>
support.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:48:10 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
> >I got my first story published in the New Zealand<BR>
National Science Fiction<BR>
> >convention book over the weekend , along with an<BR>
"Honourable Mention" in the<BR>
> >short story competition.<BR>
><BR>
> Woo-Hoo!<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations. Now that is a great feeling.<BR>
<BR>
> >I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
><BR>
> Isn't that a great feeling?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know, it always made me feel so weird, as if<BR>
they'd mistaken me for someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
Occassional author.<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:56:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >What's the point at which a missile becomes a robot?<BR>
><BR>
> Iain Bank's Knife Missiles?<BR>
><BR>
That's the point at which a missile becomes a *person*.<BR>
<BR>
ObsSF - Dark Star<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:01:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote :<BR>
> >From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
> >At 19:22 -0400 5/6/00, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
> >>What's the point at which a missile becomes a robot?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Iain Bank's Knife Missiles?<BR>
><BR>
> or the grav dart floating behind the panel in Paul<BR>
> Atreides' room<BR>
><BR>
> I'm in the camp that thinks that Lynch got Herbert's vision<BR>
> about right.<BR>
<BR>
With regard to the dart and the shields he got them pefect.<BR>
<BR>
IMO he stuffed up with the Sardakaur and the whole silly "weirding module"<BR>
thing.<BR>
<BR>
One has to say, though, that the dart in Dune was remotely controlled by a<BR>
spy hidden in one of the walls, it was _not_ autonomous.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:53:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bruce<BR>
> Macintosh<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 June 2000 2:22 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >I am in the process of trying to do something foolish.  I am trying to<BR>
> >design a streamlined shuttle for a Tech Level 9 exploration vessel,<BR>
> >*without* using any of that convenient gravitic technology.  The exhaust<BR>
> >produced by the fusion rocket is prohibitively dirty, and since we're<BR>
> >talking about Tech Level 9, fusion reactors are far too bulky, and clean<BR>
> >HEPlaR drives haven't even been invented yet.  Am I correct in thinking<BR>
> >that I should design this shuttle with a hypersonic airframe hull, and a<BR>
> >"three-fold" propulsion system (air-breathing engines for flying at low<BR>
> >altitudes, "primitive" rockets for orbital insertion, and a nuclear<BR>
> >fission rocket for operating in space)?<BR>
><BR>
> I have a couple of desgins for this. Are you using FFS1 or FFS2?<BR>
><BR>
> My FFS1 design is a VTVL aircraft with AZHRAE (hybrid<BR>
> airbreathing/rocket engines) - these are very nice in FFS1.<BR>
> One version is even field-refuellable (hydrogen-burning rather than<BR>
> HCD-burning.) The VTVL one could probably be rough-field<BR>
> capable.<BR>
><BR>
>Have you posted the FFS1 design anywhere? I have a state in my TNE variant<BR>
which is predominately at TL9.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2566<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 05:58:59 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 05:58:32 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id FAA92898;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:57:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:57:19 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id FAA92857<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:57:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:57:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006070957.FAA92857@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2566<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2567</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 6:39:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2567<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: UXB's<BR>
Re: UXB's<BR>
RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Striker Questions<BR>
Re: ground combat<BR>
Re: Milbots<BR>
Ban request<BR>
Fw: Famile Spofulam Elephant Mounted PAW<BR>
Fw: Famile Spofulam Jet Bike<BR>
Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:44:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: UXB's<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>  The numbers of French farmers killed by Great War left-overs is a<BR>
>>>lot less than you might think (i.e., it doesn't make head-lines).<BR>
> ...<BR>
>> You can drive a tractor over a field<BR>
>>containing UXB's with negligible chance of setting them of, even 60 years<BR>
>>after they were dropped.<BR>
><BR>
>   It's the plow that makes the difference :|<BR>
><BR>
>   ObTrav?  Sooner or later, you can have the PC's run across <BR>
> a defunct missile/warhead, and see what the fools get up to.<BR>
<BR>
Better yet, have them find a fairly intact derelict from one of the<BR>
wars. One that ought to have lots of nice missiles and weapons to be<BR>
salvaged. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, who knows what battle damage may have done to the safeties<BR>
in the ready ammo stores... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:58:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: UXB's<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca><BR>
<BR>
>   ObTrav?  Sooner or later, you can have the PC's run<BR>
across<BR>
> a defunct missile/warhead, and see what the fools get<BR>
up to.<BR>
><BR>
Make that a defunct Ancient missile/warhead the size of<BR>
a small<BR>
bus and you have a winner of a scenario.<BR>
<BR>
Them players, one whif of ancient technology and<BR>
nothing is<BR>
too stupid...<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:51:59 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> In my Traveller universe, the Imperium's Ministry of Trade<BR>
> has a branch called the Imperial Securities Department<BR>
> ("ISD"), which administers the Imperial laws governing<BR>
> interstellar investments (such as they are).  The corporate<BR>
> profile could be an ISD form, derived from the ISBA's form<BR>
> and now widely used throughout the Imperium, both for<BR>
> publicly and closely held business organizations.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, how about a new BITS book: "101 Agencies"?<BR>
<BR>
We already have the IN, IISS, IGS, MoC, MoJ, JSB, INI, SPA, ...<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I have a Ministry of Transport which  (among  other  things)<BR>
issues  space-worthiness  certificates  on   starships   ...   an<BR>
annoying piece of paperwork for merchant prince wannabes to worry<BR>
about.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
(Yes I know the IGS is part of IISS, JSB is part of MoJ, and  INI<BR>
is part of IN.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:49:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
You have successfuly performed the old Sith mind trick of making others<BR>
forcefuly spew beverage from their mouth and nostrils ending in total<BR>
destruction of primative data input devices!<BR>
<BR>
Or in other terms, "Oh my God!  You killed my keyboard!  You Bastard!"<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:11:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>You have successfuly performed the old Sith mind trick of making others<BR>
>forcefuly spew beverage from their mouth and nostrils ending in total<BR>
>destruction of primative data input devices!<BR>
><BR>
>Or in other terms, "Oh my God!  You killed my keyboard!  You Bastard!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Grand Moff Tarken walks out & says, "This has become rather silly.  Now<BR>
for something completely different."<BR>
<BR>
    <Quick cut to Penguin Boy sitting at a piano wearing only a smile & his<BR>
utility belt.><BR>
<BR>
    (Sorry, Doug, but there is now way I can play a piano, naked or<BR>
otherwise.)<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 04:11:59 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >And just *who* is going to walk all over those old battlefields with<BR>
> >metal detectors? Keeping in mind all the *junk* that will be causing<BR>
> >false alarms, as well as the *plastic* mines that may be lurking.<BR>
<BR>
>   We've got this Duke's nephew who miraculously survived the crash<BR>
> of his gunboat command...<BR>
<BR>
This was the one who lost his gunboat due to borderline<BR>
incompetence but made it look as if he was a big hero in<BR>
his (ghostwritten) autobiography that family influence made<BR>
into an award winning best-seller right?<BR>
<BR>
I thought that he retired from the Navy to go into politics....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jun 00, at 11:31, Rob Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I think it's high time we re-enumerate the various corporate<BR>
> entities represented here by members of the TML.  X-Tek,<BR>
> Famile Spofalum, Auritech, Gridlore... there are many more<BR>
> out there, too.<BR>
<BR>
Name: Phoenix Enterprises LIC<BR>
Headquarters: (M0) Shudusham/Core 2209, (M1100) Serila/Old Expanses <BR>
1006<BR>
Number of Employees: (M0) 4, (M1100) 5<BR>
Range: (M0) C, (M1100) D<BR>
Influence: (M0) 9, (M1100) 6<BR>
Public Image: (M0) 5, (M1100) 8<BR>
R&D: (M0) F [15%], (M1100) 6 [6%]<BR>
Turnover: (M0) 8, (M1100) 9<BR>
Profit: (M0) 6, (M1100) 7<BR>
Nature of Corporation: (M0) Pub, (M1100) Pub<BR>
Areas of Operation: (M0) Manu 4 Ret 5 Svc 1, (M1100) Manu 8, Ret 1 Svc 1<BR>
Tradition: (M0) 4, (M1100) B<BR>
Corporate Politics: (M0) 9, (M1100) 6<BR>
Corporate Paranoia: (M0) 9, (M1100) 5<BR>
Nationality: Im (Imperial)<BR>
Ownership:<BR>
(M0) Noble Families 28%, Hortalez et Cie 23%, Zirunkariish 21%, GSbAG <BR>
6%, Other 23%<BR>
(M1100) Noble Families 14%, Hortalez et Cie 10%, GSbAG 19%, <BR>
Employee Trust 37%, Delago Trading 13%, Other 7%<BR>
<BR>
Founded in -372 as Phoenix Chandlers and Providors, Phoenix has <BR>
interests in many aspects of the aeronautics and astrospace industry. <BR>
Intially Phoenix concentrated on the provision of consumables for <BR>
commercial starship, but in -215 it purchased Matsui Electronics and won <BR>
a contract to supply the Sylean Navy with digital personal organisers. In -<BR>
127 Phoenix aquired a bankrupt shipyard (Jergen Craftwerke AG) and <BR>
moved into the luctrative ship maintainance and refit market. In -24 Phoenix <BR>
launched their first original design (the P-600AK, a 600Td merchant). Not <BR>
really a commercial success, Phoenix designs did not sell well until it <BR>
acquired the services of Capt. Sir Jerami Danjo (formerly of the Sylean <BR>
Navy Bureau of Construction and Repair) in -8. Sir Jerami had been widely <BR>
picked as a possible candidate for Director General of the BuConRep, <BR>
before his premature retirement after a scandal involving one of the future <BR>
Emperor Cleon I's (married) cousins. Under Sir Jerami's direction, <BR>
Phoenix's shipbuilding interests have moved from strength to strength and <BR>
now constitute the corporation's major focus. In -5 Sir Jerami was <BR>
appointed CEO of Phoenix. Under his direction, Phoenix invested heavily in <BR>
research and development and became one of the major suppliers to the <BR>
Scouts. Eventually concerns about Sir Jerami's focus on unproven and <BR>
controversial technologies lead to his retirement and the lavish R&D budget <BR>
was scaled back.<BR>
<BR>
Phoenix continued to concentrate on supplying small (under 1000T) ships <BR>
to the Scout Service until the Civil War. During the Civil War, Phoenix <BR>
produced escort warships for the many factions. However, the companies <BR>
CEO made the almost fatal mistake of backing Gustus against Arbellatra <BR>
and as a result, the company lost its lucrative Scout Service contracts in <BR>
the wake of Arbellatra's victory. In response to this crisis the new CEO <BR>
elected to relocate the company in 624. The company was able to <BR>
gradually recover and by the early 660s had reestablished itself as a viable <BR>
going concern in the Old Expanses.<BR>
<BR>
The company cautiously expanded until the outbreak of the Solomani Rim <BR>
War. During the Solomani offensive into the Old Expanses the company's <BR>
yards turned out hundreds of its P800-MF(g) missile frigates (the first <BR>
vessels the company had made for Imperial orders since the Civil War). <BR>
The resulting profits allowed Phoenix to expand and absorb several other <BR>
small shipbuilders. More importantly, it now found Imperial contracts again <BR>
open to it. Since the Rim War, Phoenix has returned primarily to the <BR>
construction of small merchants and scouts, but has been able to once <BR>
again win Imperial contracts.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:13:19 -0500<BR>
From: "nvdoyle" <nvdoyle@home.com><BR>
Subject: Striker Questions<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFD058.3D469AC0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
Having finally found a copy of Striker (CT), I'm thoroughly enjoying it, =<BR>
but a few questions have popped up...<BR>
<BR>
1)Book 3, page 19, Design sequence 6: Lasers, step K. 'Lasers have a =<BR>
positive DM when firing, as shown on the laser hit bonus table. THe same =<BR>
DM is used at all ranges.' Where is this table?<BR>
<BR>
2)It seems that atmosphere-capable PAWs (NPAW?) were left out, and the =<BR>
interaction of naval PAWs with the battlefield was glossed over. Book 2, =<BR>
page 42. 'Particle accelerators are devastating against planets with =<BR>
atmosphere types of trace or vacuum, but completely ineffective against =<BR>
other atmosphere types. If one side has a particle accelerator in orbit =<BR>
over a trace of vacuum atmosphere world, the other side should =<BR>
surrender.' Has anyone explored this more - specifically, are there =<BR>
design sequences and statistics for creation and use of these weapons?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Noah Doyle<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFD058.3D469AC0<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>Having finally found a copy of Striker (CT), I'm =<BR>
thoroughly=20<BR>
enjoying it, but a few questions have popped up...</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>1)Book 3, page 19, Design sequence 6: Lasers, step =<BR>
K. 'Lasers=20<BR>
have a positive DM when firing, as shown on the laser hit bonus table. =<BR>
THe same=20<BR>
DM is used at all ranges.' Where is this table?</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>2)It seems that atmosphere-capable PAWs (NPAW?) were =<BR>
left out,=20<BR>
and the interaction of naval PAWs with the battlefield was glossed over. =<BR>
Book 2,=20<BR>
page 42. 'Particle accelerators are devastating against planets with =<BR>
atmosphere=20<BR>
types of trace or vacuum, but completely ineffective against other =<BR>
atmosphere=20<BR>
types. If one side has a particle accelerator in orbit over a trace of =<BR>
vacuum=20<BR>
atmosphere world, the other side should surrender.' Has anyone explored =<BR>
this=20<BR>
more - specifically, are there design sequences and statistics for =<BR>
creation and=20<BR>
use of these weapons?</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Noah Doyle</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFD058.3D469AC0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 06:29:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
on 6/6/00 11:34 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Note that the velocity of such projectiles is pretty much guaranteed to<BR>
> be uninspring, and that a _grav-tank_ will be able to scoot out of the<BR>
> beaten zone fairly easily. Saturation with 15-30 second flight times starts<BR>
> to become pretty scary for your logistics people. And your bankers :><BR>
> <BR>
> Cluster bombs already necessitate thicker deck armours; depending on TL<BR>
> capabilities we get grav-tanks ranging from 8" to 60" of steel plate<BR>
> equivalent roofs (Striker).<BR>
> <BR>
>> Hmmm, think I'll calculate this out. What system are you using to create<BR>
>> your laser tank?<BR>
> <BR>
> Striker (I; CT).<BR>
> <BR>
> Steven Hudson<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Steve.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, It's been a while since I looked at Striker.  In fact my set<BR>
looks brand new, having not been touched in 10 years or more.  You have me<BR>
thinking about how to stop those darn grav tanks (short of using Ortillery).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:09:47 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Milbots<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
><BR>
> The basic rule of modern warfare is combined arms.  Tanks without support<BR>
> are targets, so are robots.  My infantryman with a Cr 25,000 tac missile<BR>
> takes out your MCr 2.5 tank.  Guess who just won that exchange.  Same for<BR>
> robots.  My relatively dumb, robot seeking missiles (say unmanned and<BR>
> programmed to shoot at robots--a slightly more sophisticated Hellfire and<BR>
Cr<BR>
> 50,000 ea) destroys even a stupid Cr 500,000 robot.  Good exchange.<BR>
> Assuming equal economies, guess who goes broke first.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well, my tanks tend not to cost MCr 2.5, and always have point defense (the<BR>
TL9-12 FS tank typically has a 20mm PD cannon, and a hull-mounted ,probably<BR>
battery-powered, main weapon. It is a choice to dedicate the turret to point<BR>
defense, but I am willing to accept the limitations). Once everything and<BR>
it's dog has point defense, I believe that artillery would be less<BR>
effective.<BR>
<BR>
I can build an effective grav tankette for KCr 500, so I'd hope your robots<BR>
are cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
And as I argued, you can probably get well-trained infantry for KCr 50 cash<BR>
down, so an 'infantry robot' should be cheaper than that.<BR>
<BR>
But I would like to see your warbots built under FFS2 ...<BR>
<BR>
> The materials cost of modern war is a factor that few consider.  James<BR>
> Dunnigan's "How to Make War" is informative in this regard. Large scale<BR>
> modern wars must be short, or governments will go bankrupt.  Naturally,<BR>
this<BR>
> does not include wars of survival, which can be expected to be fought to<BR>
the<BR>
> bitter end.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
My suspicion is that modern militaries have been structured for short wars,<BR>
rather than for long wars. I suspect that you could set up a production line<BR>
for a cheap, reasonably effective daylight fighter that would have them<BR>
rolling out at dozens a day (I am thinking of something like a modernised,<BR>
radar-free Tiger II - the F-xs can rule the night, but quantity has a<BR>
quality all of it's own). Similarly, I think you could mass-produce<BR>
M113s/BMPs without too much hassle, and I am still surprised that the<BR>
Western navies never built an escort carrier for convoy work (me, I call it<BR>
an escort carrier. You would call it a converted merchant ship carrying four<BR>
MD500 helos. I would call it a 'light escort frigate'. You would call it a<BR>
cod trawler with a towed sonar and an Ikara torpedo rocket launcher. Hmm, I<BR>
have to do more Harpoon II ...).<BR>
<BR>
The main driver for military theory in the West and the Soviet Union has<BR>
been the 'big show' in Europe. Soviet doctrine relied on a relatively short<BR>
4-6 week war, mostly becasue after about that point their supply lines curl<BR>
up and die, and thats what everyone planned around. But it was basically a<BR>
choice.<BR>
<BR>
An example of a 'long' modern war is the Americans in Vietnam, which lasted<BR>
from, what, 1965 to 1972 ? A second example is the Iran-Iraq war. A third<BR>
example is the Soviets in Afghanistan.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, I appreciate you opinions posted here.  While we may disagree, its<BR>
> pleasant to do so in a relatively civil manner. Lots of this stuff finds<BR>
its<BR>
> way into my campaigns.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Thanks. I get narky sometimes, but I try to be civil, and recognise that<BR>
other people have different but legitimnate views.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:13:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Ban request<BR>
<BR>
> From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
> And if you don't like being exposed as an amoral idiot you should give up<BR>
> your internet access. Not to mention your pathetic inability to stop<BR>
begging<BR>
> for more abuse in public.<BR>
> Make up your mind.<BR>
><BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
I'd like to request a one week ban on this person posting.<BR>
<BR>
He adds little except aggravation.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
PS It's time like these I wish Ditzie was here. You all know the pic on<BR>
Jesse's page ...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:28:56 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Fw: Famile Spofulam Elephant Mounted PAW<BR>
<BR>
The list has had too much crap on it recently.<BR>
<BR>
I'm reposting a bunch of old Famile Spofulam stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 9:45 PM<BR>
Subject: Famile Spofulam Elephant Mounted PAW<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Dear Uncie,<BR>
><BR>
> Weeee managed it.<BR>
><BR>
> The twick was to splittie-wittie the paaackages between multiple elfants.<BR>
><BR>
> Uncie, have I told you how much I like elfants ?<BR>
><BR>
> Well, the first elfant gets the beeeam pointer (for 290 kiiiilos), an an<BR>
an<BR>
> a thiiiirty-seven point fiiive connimeter diiiiameter circular<BR>
pawsie-wasie<BR>
> that is threeeeee meters long from the point of viiiiew of the<BR>
paaaaarticle<BR>
> (six hunnderd an siiiixty kiiilos) an an an a hunnderd sixty kiiiiilos of<BR>
> accumuloator.<BR>
><BR>
> This is wheresie where I have a pwooooblem, but but but I have two<BR>
> soluuutions.<BR>
><BR>
> If if if elfant mounted pawsie-wasies neeeeed a cawwiage, then then then<BR>
> that masses one point one one tons, an an an the first elfant gets to<BR>
cawwy<BR>
> two point two two tons, an an an each lap adds a hunnderd kiiiilojoules to<BR>
> the ouuuutput.<BR>
><BR>
> If it doesnt wusnt, then then then we add another four hunnder an an an<BR>
> eighty kiiilos of accumuuulator, which we'll deal with laaaaaaater.<BR>
><BR>
> Nummer twoooo through fiiiiive elfants get twoooo tons of<BR>
battery-watteries<BR>
> with a diiischarge time of thiiirty siiix seconds.<BR>
><BR>
> Now, the paaaaarticle is goanna goanna goaanna go around twenny five<BR>
> thousand six hunnder times, so so so it comes out the other endie-wend at<BR>
at<BR>
> at a paaace that with all it's fwends should should shouldiie should<BR>
> punchie-wunchie a cennimeter of super-duper dense qwiiiite nicely. I dont<BR>
> like people who hurt elfants.<BR>
><BR>
> If if iffie if we can have more acuuuumulator (like maybe six hunnder<BR>
forty<BR>
> kiiilos total) then then then each lappie-wappie will be for four hunnder<BR>
> kilojouuuules an an an that means that we only need to send it round<BR>
sixteen<BR>
> hunnerd times. This means we oooonly need elfant two for the battery<BR>
> paaaack.<BR>
><BR>
> So so so twenny five thousand six hunnder cycles at at at a hunnerd<BR>
> kilojoules a time is is is twenny five hunnderd an sixty meeegawatt<BR>
seconds.<BR>
> An an an four elfants each cawwying twoo tons of thiiirty siiix seconds<BR>
will<BR>
> pwoivde twenny eight eighty megawatts for for for thiiirty siiiix seconds.<BR>
><BR>
> That should get us at least oooone good shot at the people trying to hurt<BR>
> the elfants, if if if alll the caaaables are set up wight.<BR>
><BR>
> If if if if weeee dont need a cawwiage, then then then weeee only need six<BR>
> hunnderd an forty megawatt seconds. An an an that should give us one shot<BR>
> per elfant battewy.<BR>
><BR>
> Weee think that an elfant battewy pack costs costs costs six kiwocwedits,<BR>
an<BR>
> an an the basic elfant PAW costs thiiirty-six kilocweidts, plus four<BR>
> kilocwedits for eeeextra acccuuuumulator or two kiiilocwedits for the<BR>
> cawwiage.<BR>
><BR>
> The Pawsie-wasie has a theoretical effectif wange of ten point siiix<BR>
> kiwometers in a staaandard or deeense atmofere, an an an it has a<BR>
> diiischarge energy of siiixteen megawatts, which shouldie-shouldie should<BR>
> should puuunch a cennimeter of suuuperdense with some weeeet-bix left<BR>
over.<BR>
><BR>
> I think we should sell these to all planets with elfants. Togevver with<BR>
> sooome niiice rugs to put under the elfants so so so theiiir backs dont<BR>
gett<BR>
> tooo hot from the Pawsie-wasie fiiiring.<BR>
><BR>
> An an an get a sixth elfant with loooots of cold waaaaater to spray over<BR>
the<BR>
> number one elfant. They liiiiiike that.<BR>
><BR>
> Your loving cousin,<BR>
><BR>
> Ditzie<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> *******************************************<BR>
><BR>
> Damage value is 29. I'd like someone to rate this thing under Bruce<BR>
> Macintosh's MCS.<BR>
><BR>
> Ditzie loves elephants. Does TAS realise the scale of the risk they are<BR>
> taking, insuring all those big game hunters ?<BR>
><BR>
> Ian<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:29:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Fw: Famile Spofulam Jet Bike<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 8:53 PM<BR>
Subject: Famile Spofulam Jet Bike<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The Famile Spofulam Jet Bike.<BR>
><BR>
> Maximum speed of 1050 km per hour, accelerating to that speed with 87<BR>
> seconds of thrust. A total thrust-time of 172 seconds is provided. Fuelled<BR>
> by 100 kg of hypergolic fuel, this baby tests the pilot to the absolute<BR>
> limit.<BR>
><BR>
> Needless to say, this is a high performance, fly-by-2mm-steel-wire<BR>
aircraft<BR>
> for the discerning gentleman. Knowledge of computer assisted flying<BR>
programs<BR>
> is not a requirement. Prospective owners are advised to check with local<BR>
> authorities regarding environmental issues and flight control<BR>
requirements.<BR>
><BR>
> Pilots are strongly advised not to remove the safety interlocks, as doing<BR>
so<BR>
> may invalidate the warranty on the vehicle and thus subject the operator<BR>
to<BR>
> severe legal risks if the vehicle goes uncontrolled and damage to life or<BR>
> property occours.<BR>
><BR>
> The total unit masses 300 kg, and have a frame designed to support 400 kg.<BR>
> Intending operators of more than 100 kg mass are advised to contact your<BR>
> local Famile Spofulam representitives about custom models.<BR>
><BR>
> *********************************************************************<BR>
><BR>
> 1.7 kN thrust Hypergolic Liquid Rocket ; 0.013t, KCr 23. Consumes 2.074 m3<BR>
> fuel per hour<BR>
><BR>
> 100 kg of hypergolic fuel (hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide = "Ditzie's<BR>
> Favorite Gloop") will therefore last 172 seconds, and cost Cr 40.<BR>
><BR>
> 0.4 t Transonic airframe ; 0.04t, KCr<BR>
><BR>
> Basic Mechanical Crewstation ; 0.1 t, KCr 0.3<BR>
><BR>
> 100 kg pilot ; 0.1t, KCr Free<BR>
><BR>
> 35 kg Parachute ; 0.035t, KCr 1<BR>
><BR>
> Max speed 1100 km per hour. 5 maneuver points. 0.17 maintenence points.KCr<BR>
> 38.3 (TL6 credits, too). Accelerates at 3.325 m/s, or about 12 km per hour<BR>
> per second. Glide ratio of 10%.<BR>
><BR>
> NB If you leave the pedal on the metal, the airframe breaks up once it<BR>
goes<BR>
> over 1100 km per hour in a standard atmosphere. We cannot either confirm<BR>
or<BR>
> deny rumours of the release of a  racing model at this point in time.<BR>
><BR>
> Referees notes : I guess you should put "Jet Bike" into the Vehicle<BR>
cluster.<BR>
> This thing is suicide on a stick, in my opinion.<BR>
><BR>
> (c) Ian Whitchurch 2000. Not to be reprinted without permission, but<BR>
> personal use is OK.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:36:49 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
> > i) laser tanks will range to the horizon at TL 9+.<BR>
><BR>
> But not fire through terrain.  Hence the advantage of indirect fire.  I<BR>
> would be a fool to place my guns in the open.  Instead, I would use<BR>
terrain<BR>
> masking, or prepare multiple dug in firing positions, and shuttle my guns<BR>
> around.  I can also mask my positions (and false one) with prismatic<BR>
> aerosol, it doesn't effect my guns.<BR>
<BR>
One issue that I havent made up my mind on is the unit density of combat in<BR>
the Trav universe.<BR>
<BR>
Grav makes everything very mobile. I suspect that this would lead to a fluid<BR>
front and a much wider FEBA than currently true - possibly 500 km or so<BR>
(there would cease to be a FEBA if all of one side's forces are fusion<BR>
powered grav vehicles, who can range basically across the planet).<BR>
<BR>
This may limit the usefulness of artillery - if artillery has a 20km range,<BR>
than you need to basically take it with you in a 500km FEBA. Not that this<BR>
is impossible, of course - a squadron of SP guns hang 10 km back from your<BR>
main effort.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > ii) PD can slaughter "high-tech copperheads" as fast as you can pump<BR>
> > them out.<BR>
><BR>
> Pardon my ignorance, please explain PD.<BR>
<BR>
Point defense. One of the defining Trav technologies is point defense is<BR>
ship size at TL7 (Phalanx and equivalent) and vehicle size at TL9. I have<BR>
argued that it should be man-portable by TL12 or so (mostly to solve the<BR>
HEAP rifle grenade vs Battle Dress problem).<BR>
<BR>
Lasers are excellent for Area Defense (using PD systems to shoot up any<BR>
missiles or whatever out to line of sight).<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Assume my guns are of equivalent tech level.  Mass drivers, perhaps.  I<BR>
can<BR>
> pump out my high tech copperheads pretty fast.  And along the way I'm also<BR>
> shooting lots of decoys and chaff.  My copperheads are stupid.  They<BR>
ignore<BR>
> anything smaller than a vehicle (like a decoy warhead), they just home in<BR>
on<BR>
> large metal objects, so they are cheap.  The decoys are even cheaper,<BR>
nested<BR>
> cones of metal, maybe 20 or 30 to a shell.  You don't know they are<BR>
dummies<BR>
> until the copperheads are released, they fall faster.  You've got an area<BR>
> full of junk, some of which is very dangerous.  Which one do you target?<BR>
> (hey, just for fun, lets throw in some prismatic aerosol with lots of WP<BR>
for<BR>
> smoke and to foul up those thermal imaging systems -- maybe some wild<BR>
weasel<BR>
> shells too).<BR>
<BR>
Well, our sensors and computers will have to work fast, but basically we<BR>
will need to shoot anything that is going to fall onto us.<BR>
<BR>
You may be surprised by the cost of high-tech rapid fire artillery. I built<BR>
a TL10, maybe 11, biiig ugly mass driver artillery piece a while ago (I cant<BR>
even remember what I called it, but it was pretty damn gross. Something like<BR>
200mm at 5 km per second, and a rate of fire of 8 shots in 20 seconds ...<BR>
then an hour of recharging). Basically, mass drivers eat power like crazy.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > iii) artillery - especially that demanding close escort - is likely<BR>
> > going to be far less important in the big wars of the OTU than a lot<BR>
> > of us might prefer to believe; cost-benefit is going to be pretty<BR>
> > low, although a more than merely residual capability is going to be<BR>
><BR>
> Cost benefit is what keeps artillery useful.  Shells are cheap.  With mass<BR>
> drivers they are even cheaper.  Maybe I don't even need my copperheads.  I<BR>
> use high angle fire and shells loaded with dozens of superdense<BR>
penetrators.<BR>
> Personally I like depleted uranium, hard, dense and pyrophoric. the rounds<BR>
> are nice and cheap, so I buy lots of them (and I mean lots).  A bursting<BR>
> charge opens the carrier at a preset altitude, and centripedal force<BR>
> distributes them nicely.  Now it's raining lots and lots of VERY BAD<BR>
THINGS.<BR>
> Just hunks of metal, so electronic countermeasures are useless.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well, if you are doing high angle fire, then your shells are going to get<BR>
shot at by various PD lasers, and artillery shells arent that cheap when you<BR>
are throwing them out by the double handful.<BR>
<BR>
Design some of these, preferably under FFS2 :)<BR>
<BR>
I argue a lot 'x is not the dominant weapon', but I still think most<BR>
everything has a role somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
> Just so any infantry won't feel left out, we'll include some HE shells<BR>
too.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm, think I'll calculate this out. What system are you using to create<BR>
> your laser tank?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
FFS2. Shall we say TL 10 ?<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, thanks for the comments.  This is interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Beats abusing each other about WW2 (and, incidentally, I loved the crack on<BR>
'The gunner thought they were Australians"... remember who won the Battle of<BR>
Brisbane, you Seppo bastards ... and that includes Septic Tanks from south<BR>
of the Mason-Dixon line).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2567<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:39:51 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:39:29 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA00751;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:38:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:37:51 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA00707<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:37:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:37:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006071337.JAA00707@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2567<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2568</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 9:38:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2568<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: mines<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye OT: (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Dune<BR>
RE: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: Humour?<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Strategic economics<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Re: Ban request<BR>
Striker<BR>
Re: Milibots<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye OT: (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
Re: Striker Questions<BR>
RE: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 06:39:01 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: mines<BR>
<BR>
on 6/6/00 10:55 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
> ...<BR>
>> that given the technology available to the 3I, it should be possible to made<BR>
>> a short lived render safe mine.  This would be used as a force multiplier or<BR>
>> to fix or channelize enemy forces.  Mine fields are not effective against a<BR>
>> well prepared enemy, but they do slow him down.<BR>
> <BR>
> The bang for the buck would go down, but how about a mine whose charge<BR>
> was binary liquid artillery propellant? - it mixes in its sealed interior<BR>
> when deployed, and then outgasses slowly through the shell - if do-able<BR>
> then it's lifespan could be a factor of how quickly the shell was meant<BR>
> to "leak". And even if the fail-safe timer fuze decides to be patient, a<BR>
> year on site might mean an empty main charge?<BR>
> <BR>
> Steven Hudson<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Interesting.  I had in mind a device with solid explosive that breaks down<BR>
under environmental exposure (like a big solid fertilizer pellet).  This<BR>
might be a problem in certain climes (desert?), whereas you system would<BR>
seem to function well without regard to climate.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone out there know about 'Gravel' ap mines.  I remember reading about<BR>
this years ago.  An explosive is frozen in briquette sized chunks, then<BR>
dropped over the battlefield.  When it warms, it becomes contact sensitive,<BR>
making a dandy little minefield.<BR>
<BR>
Make sure the explosive matches the terrain, and sublimates after a few<BR>
days, and you have a nice, cheap area denial munition.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:41:38 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> Luckily, even the crude NERVA system Project Pluto built back in the<BR>
> 60s had twice the Isp of the best chemical rockets. And since mass<BR>
> ratio is related to Isp by an *exponential* relationship, that means a<BR>
> *huge* reduction.<BR>
<BR>
I thought about "Project Pluto" when I started trying to design this<BR>
peculiar vehicle, but I set the "atomic ramjet" idea aside for a couple of<BR>
reasons: (1) according to the "Scientific American" article I read a<BR>
several years ago, the "Project Pluto" engine was *incredibly* dirty, and<BR>
(2) there are no rules in the "T4 Edition" of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel"<BR>
for atomic ramjets.  <sigh> Granted, "Project Pluto" dated back to the<BR>
1950s, which would translate to the borderline between Tech Levels 6 and<BR>
7, so I guess that "clean" atomic ramjets should be possible by at Tech<BR>
Level 9, but the lack of rules for them remains a barrier, at least to me<BR>
(my grasp of physics and engineering isn't strong enough to enable me to<BR>
"wing it" with confidence).<BR>
                                                           - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:06:06 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye OT: (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> >Douglas Berry wrote,<BR>
>> >>No it WASN'T.  I will pay you $50,000 if you can produce *one* piece of<BR>
>> >evidence where our leadership or the UN made the removal of the sitting<BR>
>> >Iraqi government part of the military mission objectives.<<BR>
><BR>
>> >Do you want a private response to this as well?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> No, out in public.  Give us a reference to any official communication,<BR>
>> briefing, Ops Order or any reference in a history of the Gulf War to the<BR>
>> United States directing, as policy that the US goal was to remove Saddam<BR>
>> Hussein from power.  <BR>
><BR>
>Logically absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.<BR>
><BR>
>I agree that it is unlikely that this was made part of the<BR>
>military mission objectives. It seems to me that the fact that <BR>
>this was not achieved is strong evidence that this was not a <BR>
>military mission objective. I believe that if it had been a <BR>
>military mission objective it would have been achieved.<BR>
><BR>
>> Yopu won't find it, because it never hapened.  We went in with two goals.<BR>
>> Remove the Iraqis from Kuwait, and keep Israel from intervening.  We<BR>
>> succeeded on both measures. <BR>
><BR>
>After these two objectives were achieved so handily another <BR>
>objective could have been added but was not. It is my understanding <BR>
>that the removal of Saddam Hussein from power was discussed by<BR>
>the Bush White House but was not made a military mission<BR>
>objective. As no Congressional Declaration of War exists it<BR>
>is difficult to say what Congressional desires were.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Oh, I don't know about that.  A case could be made that since Saddam was<BR>
also a member of the UNIFORMED armed forces, he could be killed because he<BR>
was part of the military chain of command.  That's what you get when you<BR>
follow the fashion of tinpot dictators everywhere in wearing a uniform and<BR>
being a higher-up in the military.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, I think that fact the Turks would not have been happy if the<BR>
Kurds had gotten their own state, nobody wanted Iran to influence the<BR>
southern, Shiite-dominated South, the fellow Arab countries were against it,<BR>
few allies would support it, and there was no clear sucessor to Saddam might<BR>
all have more to deal with why killing Saddam was not a goal.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:49:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Dune<BR>
<BR>
<Frankie><BR>
With regard to the dart and the shields he got them pefect.<BR>
</Frankie><BR>
<BR>
The dart, maybe.  The shields are described in the book as looking like<BR>
nothing more than slight distortions in the air, like heat ripples.  Not<BR>
big crystaline things that don't allow you to see what the actors are<BR>
doing.<BR>
<BR>
<Frankie><BR>
IMO he stuffed up with the Sardakaur and the whole silly "weirding module"<BR>
thing.<BR>
</Frankie><BR>
<BR>
BIG time!<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:58:24 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Well Worlds *SPOILERS*<BR>
<BR>
Here's my original reply I cleverly sent to the wrong address. :|<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
____________________________________________________________________________<BR>
________<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
My recommendation would be to read the original series listed below. :)<BR>
<BR>
However, without trying to hit the characters or plots, here's a boiled down<BR>
version of the Well World.<BR>
<BR>
The Well World was a constructed world, built by the Markovians (i.e.<BR>
Ancients). A sphere with a large wall around the equator was constructed and<BR>
the surface divided into hexes (or half-hexes where the equatorial wall<BR>
interfered). No walls seperated the hexes, but each each contained a unique<BR>
biosphere and complete ecosystem. Most of which have intelligent life of one<BR>
form or another. North of the equator (IIRC), was non-carbon based, south<BR>
carbon based life-forms. Hexes could be land, or ocean. Weather patterns are<BR>
by hex, not global. An interesting feature is that differing hexes have been<BR>
designated at differing tech levels and if a higher tech device is brought<BR>
into a low tech hex, it doesn't work. So you may be shooting along in a high<BR>
tech hex on your anti-grav skimmer, cross into a low tech hex, and the<BR>
skimmer dies. The entire world is managed by a computer (of suitable tech<BR>
level) and it is capable of learning. In one instance a smuggled chemical<BR>
weapon worked once in a hex, but then the computer compensated for it and<BR>
that type of transfer wasn't allowed.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody travelling to the well world had to use a gateway planet, which<BR>
teleported them to a receiving center. If you had been there before or<BR>
orignated there, you passed through a portal and were returned to your home<BR>
hex. If it was your first visit, you passed through the portal, were<BR>
assigned to a home hex, and transformed into the native intelligence for<BR>
that hex.<BR>
<BR>
It's been ten years since I read them, so I might have bits off, but that<BR>
should be pretty correct.<BR>
<BR>
Original Series<BR>
	Midnight at the Well of Souls<BR>
	Exiles at the Well of Souls<BR>
	Quest for the Well of Souls<BR>
	The Return of Nathan Brazil<BR>
	Twilight at the Well of Souls<BR>
Second Series<BR>
	Echoes of the Well of Souls<BR>
	Shadow of the Well of Souls<BR>
	Gods of the Well of Souls<BR>
	The Watchers at the Well (The previous three combined)<BR>
<BR>
Also, the author has written two "non-canon" books set in the same universe,<BR>
"The Sea is full of stars and "Ghost of the Well", neither of which I've<BR>
read (yet).<BR>
<BR>
For those interested, the author maintains a decent web site<BR>
(http://www.jackchalker.com) and his bibliography page includes this:<BR>
<BR>
Role Playing (past): TAG Industries, which specializes in miniatures for war<BR>
games, has done a Well World role-playinggame, released in fall, 1985. I do<BR>
not play role-playing games for fun; I get paid to do that, so I don't even<BR>
understand the rules and I am not responsible for the descriptions of some<BR>
of the races used in the game. The game was available from game stores and<BR>
wholesalers; the box is a large reproduction of the cover of the U.S.<BR>
edition of Midnight. At least all of you who keep pleading for more Well<BR>
World books can act out your own script. I neither wrote nor did anything<BR>
more than license these and do not feel bound to honor their description of<BR>
some of the hex creatures. The game did O.K. but TAG suffered from<BR>
distribution problems, has changed owners, and the game is now a collector's<BR>
item. Too bad.<BR>
<BR>
CD ROM (future?): Legend software bought CD ROM interactive rights to the<BR>
Well World. They paid me well and quickly, asked for a renewal of rights in<BR>
1995, and we've been waiting ever since. This is a real mystery, but anybody<BR>
else interested in the CD rights should contact me; it's darn sure these<BR>
folks are defaulting.<BR>
<BR>
I remember seeing the game, but wasn't introduced to the books until after<BR>
the game effectively disappeared.<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
If you hold a Unix shell up to your ear, can you hear the C?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:34:19<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
At 06:22 PM 6/6/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Now, Even at Jump-4, the front lines of the Spinward Marches are at least<BR>
>>two to three *years* from the Solomani Sphere.  The Rim War began in 990..<BR>
>>only four years after the end of the 3FW.  How on Earth can you claim that<BR>
>>the Frontier Wars delayed the Solomani War of Liberation?<BR>
><BR>
>  It's worth discussing this in greater detail, but at first glance (OK,<BR>
>it isn't...) it has merit. We know that both new (& expanded) production<BR>
>as well as reserve draw-downs elsewhere would have been feeding the 3FW<BR>
>front, _even if local command felt it needless_; given comm-lag, once a<BR>
>war breaks out the necessary forces are going to be put in place, perhaps<BR>
>especially once it's realized that the war start may have been premature<BR>
>for the Zhos'.<BR>
<BR>
I severely doubt that an admittedly minor war in the SM would affect the<BR>
forces in and around the Solomani Rim.  That's why the Navy has Corridor<BR>
Fleet.<BR>
<BR>
If anything, the only Imperial response rimward would be a hightened level<BR>
of alertness; which might trigger the Rim War in of itself!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:39:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
At 08:33 PM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The US is a country made from the emmigrants of EVREY other country in the<BR>
>world. Hell, like Bill Murry said in Stripes "Our ancestors were kicked out<BR>
>of the best countries...". <BR>
<BR>
"We're Americans!  Our ancestors were kicked out of every civilized country<BR>
on Earth!  We're mongrels, <feels recruit's nose> see? His nose is cold!"<BR>
<BR>
Great movie.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:43:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Humour?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:54 PM 6/6/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> Does Hussein publicly admit he was defeated during Desert Storm?<BR>
><BR>
>  _Hussein was defeated_??<BR>
<BR>
He lost Kuwait, a good chunk of his army, and hasn't been able to rebuild.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:46:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
At 09:28 PM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>No, out in public.  Give us a reference to any official communication,<BR>
>briefing, Ops Order or any reference in a history of the Gulf War to the<BR>
>United States directing, as policy that the US goal was to remove Saddam<BR>
>Hussein from power.  <<BR>
><BR>
>Since when has every policy been announced publicly? Of course the<BR>
>administration would deny it publicly, they aren't idiots.<BR>
<BR>
>>Look at the battle plan, it ends with the 3rd Army facing away from<BR>
>Baghdad!  The only thing screening that force was the 101st Air Assault and<BR>
>good intentions.<<BR>
><BR>
>Look at the number of missile strikes at Iraqi command centers and Hussein's<BR>
>palaces. Remember the strike on Qaddafi's palace. Who is living in never<BR>
>never land now?<BR>
<BR>
ROTFLMAO!!  So you can't prove it, and just expect me to believe you.  Son,<BR>
I used to work with Spec War types.  I've read the ops orders for Desert<BR>
Storm, including the target list for the air-strikes.<BR>
<BR>
Killing Saddam would have been nice, but it was never a priority.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:13:15 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic economics<BR>
<BR>
Moin Steven Hudson,<BR>
<BR>
>   For the TNE people (and those others who use TNE's "history" as a<BR>
> refs material snapshot of the pre-1116 3I), this sort of revisionism<BR>
> or (re-)consideration is relevant in that the 3I does have to answer<BR>
> for the (mis-)treatment of its inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
  I think that comparision between the 3rd Imperium and the 3rd Reich<BR>
  are quite easy to read between the lines. e.g. it lasted over 1000<BR>
  years (1000 jaehriges reich), the disctinction between major/minor<BR>
  races (herren rassen/niedere rassen) or the fact that a large fractions<BR>
  of the worlds are classified as captative collonies.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:39:07 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Moin Trevor, Peter,<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm, how about a new BITS book: "101 Agencies"?<BR>
<BR>
  Entity: 		FTN - Free Traders Network<BR>
  Founder: 		xxxUnknownxxx <BR>
  Founded In: 		~100 BI<BR>
  Contact:		ftn@copyleft.de<BR>
  Main Office:		Kange<BR>
  Sectors:		2 step around Kange (year 14 AI)<BR>
  Summary:		Information/Marketing/Survey<BR>
  Product Line : 	FTN<BR>
<BR>
	The Free Traders Network is a union of free traders. Traders who<BR>
	own their starship founded the FTN at Kange 138 BI. Started<BR>
	with one mainframe and an office at Kange for storing marketing<BR>
	information and survey datafiles. Membership of FTN is for "free<BR>
	traders" only, where free trader is defined as a captain or<BR>
	representative from a ship owned by the crew or parts of the crew.<BR>
<BR>
	This restriction barly helps to exclude big companies and<BR>
	governments, because anybody owning a Yacht can claim to be a<BR>
	free trader. So many CEOs are personal members of the FTN.<BR>
	<BR>
	Most FTN offices on backwater starports are just a room with<BR>
	a mainframe.  FTN is a comparingly cheap service working only<BR>
	because free traders can not live without.<BR>
<BR>
	At Kange the tradional FTN office is still in the backroom of<BR>
	Kanges Starport Bar, so are the most.  FTN representatives are<BR>
	not payed, and have to bring at least one state of the art<BR>
	mainframe into the FTN.  Becoming an FTN repesentative is a<BR>
	typical retirement for a active free traders.<BR>
<BR>
	At 14 Imperial FTN had 173 offices storing FTN information at<BR>
	138 differnt worlds. A free trader who wants to access FTN has<BR>
	to pay 100Cr at FTN office and to carry FTN floodfeed to his<BR>
	next systems. Storage of unencrypted mail is free, while using<BR>
	the FTN floodfeed for private encrypted mail costs additional<BR>
	100Cr per year of storage.<BR>
<BR>
	FTN information has a high value, the surveys are most times<BR>
	more acurate that the Scout-Service surveys, because they are<BR>
	based on traders first hand knowledge, and not limited by<BR>
	diplomatic ideotism (govlevel=lawlevel at example) On the other<BR>
	hand side, FTN is big, a Tl10 mainframe can barly store actual<BR>
	FTN data, while you need a Tl11 mainframe to make easy searches<BR>
	and a Tl12 mainframe to make expert system searches. Viewing<BR>
	FTN without the aid of expert software for valuable information<BR>
	is a imposible task of computer/edu. Supported by an expert<BR>
	system this search becomes formidable. Search for a private<BR>
	mail adressed to the own ship is routine using the FTN mainframe.<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:00:52 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>On the combined points of attrition and political necessity (i.e., sit<BR>
with thumbs up butts long enough and the Sovs make a separate peace?) it<BR>
was probably worthwhile. The air-enthusiasts were of course suggesting<BR>
that it was a good idea purely on its decisive military merits, but if<BR>
they were expected to be accurate and disinterested observers then human<BR>
nature has changed drastically in the last 50 years.<<BR>
<BR>
The Soviets threat to surrender is relevant of course. Decisive enough? I am<BR>
not sure. Other political considerations then have to taken into account.<BR>
<BR>
>Not in sufficient numbers with sufficient bomb-loads to deliver<BR>
the damage considered necessary - by LeMay. Yes, carrier strikes<BR>
in profusion would have gutted what was left of Japanese maritime<BR>
capabilities; they wouldn't have settled the war before late `46.<<BR>
<BR>
Right - by LeMay. To anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
>And Japanese civilians (and Allied POW's) starving to death in<BR>
their millions is a good thing in this context?<<BR>
<BR>
And the American  POW camp by Hiroshima?<BR>
6 of one...<BR>
<BR>
>I suspect that the Marines that would have been scheduled for the<BR>
Kyushu beaches would have considered it a good deal if it meant that<BR>
Japanese responses to their beach-heads were going to be crippled by<BR>
bombers flying from those islands (incl. Okinawa).<<BR>
<BR>
But I would not have required an invasion so...<BR>
<BR>
>Ask the Soviets, or the Western troops in Fortress Europe.<BR>
And the right weapons don't preclude heavy casualties - that<BR>
demands a near-prostrate opponent, which is asking a bit much.<<BR>
<BR>
*shrug*<BR>
As for the Soviets, I am still a Nationalist. Better they die for our<BR>
freedom than our people.<BR>
<BR>
>The general in "Uller Uprising", IIRC.<<BR>
<BR>
Yep.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
"Also sprach Zarathustra - YEEK!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:00:57 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ban request<BR>
<BR>
I reply as I am I addressed. When the public personal attacks cease my<BR>
public responses will. If you find me aggravating because you disagree with<BR>
me, rest assured I find you just as aggravating. I will not be held to some<BR>
bizarre standard while people randomly insult my character and intelligence<BR>
with impunity no matter who they are.<BR>
When I see a ban request for those who began this I may take such as this<BR>
seriously. Until then, have a nice day.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:06:11 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Striker<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 06:29:43 -0700<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
...<BR>
>>> Hmmm, think I'll calculate this out. What system are you using to create<BR>
>>> your laser tank?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Striker (I; CT).<BR>
...<BR>
>Obviously, It's been a while since I looked at Striker.  In fact my set<BR>
>looks brand new, having not been touched in 10 years or more.  You have me<BR>
>thinking about how to stop those darn grav tanks (short of using Ortillery).<BR>
<BR>
  Don't forget that the Classic Reprints are going to include a book of<BR>
the wargames - including Striker!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:06:24 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
>Ian Whitchurch<BR>
...<BR>
>Also remember that artillery fire reveals the position of the artillery,<BR>
>which could then be vulnerable to counter-battery fire or assault by grav<BR>
>tanks.<BR>
<BR>
  For those amused by irony, one of the cuter responses to arty is to <BR>
deploy a smallish grav-drone packed with ATGM's. If they have an ammo<BR>
hauler nearby, you may only need to launch one round and *flee*.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>soldier costs you KCr 20/2 + 0.5*6, or KCr 13, plus KCr 10 per year.<BR>
><BR>
>Given that kit should cost about KCr 50 (CE suit, ACR, laser comm, bunch of<BR>
>RAM grenades, their share of a very cheap grav APC), then a theoretical<BR>
>warbot has to cost about this amount.<BR>
<BR>
  The standard Zho-bot at KCr 150 (I suspect that could be trimmed a bit)<BR>
is only Intel 3, although if they really cared they could get it up to<BR>
4 or 5 pretty easily, possibly even 6 if needed for scouting. But at 3,<BR>
and with minimal programming it's really more of a case of "hey, Kenny,<BR>
draw their fire for us, eh?"<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:04:40 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
>Killing Saddam would have been nice, but it was never a priority.<<BR>
<BR>
And you just proved I am right.<BR>
Thanks again.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:10:38 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   That was my point - many Zho's would be horrified if the 3I _did_ fold<BR>
> up and go home with their toys. OTOH, some Expansionists would take it as<BR>
> a sign that they should push harder, although being Zho's they'd probably<BR>
> spend a century or more consolidating - and learning that the Vargr were<BR>
> now _their_ problem :><BR>
<BR>
The vargr are already their problem.  The Zhodani shares a lot more border with the Vargr than they do with the Imperium.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:51:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye OT: (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
At 11:34 PM 6/6/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>After these two objectives were achieved so handily another <BR>
>objective could have been added but was not. It is my understanding <BR>
>that the removal of Saddam Hussein from power was discussed by<BR>
>the Bush White House but was not made a military mission<BR>
>objective. As no Congressional Declaration of War exists it<BR>
>is difficult to say what Congressional desires were.<BR>
<BR>
It would have been nearly impossible to unsnarl the 3rd Army from their<BR>
stop positions, and begin moving northwest without given the Iraqis time to<BR>
scream bloody murder in the UN.<BR>
<BR>
Also, sending US forces deep into Iraq negates our control over Saddams NBC<BR>
warfare capability.  Since he'd be defending his nation against an illegal<BR>
invasion, he'd open up with everything, and we'd be forced to either suck<BR>
up massive casualties, or respond in kind.<BR>
<BR>
There was the abortive, tenuous support for a popular uprising, but that<BR>
fizzled with Bush's poll numbers.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: The Imperial Army is stuck in numerous quagmires on internal<BR>
security missions and the like.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:57:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
<BR>
At 10:02 PM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And if you don't like being exposed as an amoral idiot you should give up<BR>
>your internet access. Not to mention your pathetic inability to stop begging<BR>
>for more abuse in public.<BR>
>Make up your mind.<BR>
<BR>
Can we please get a post ban on Samwise?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:22:27 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker Questions<BR>
<BR>
>From: "nvdoyle" <nvdoyle@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Striker Questions<BR>
...<BR>
>Having finally found a copy of Striker (CT), I'm thoroughly enjoying it, =<BR>
>but a few questions have popped up...<BR>
><BR>
>1)Book 3, page 19, Design sequence 6: Lasers, step K. 'Lasers have a =<BR>
>positive DM when firing, as shown on the laser hit bonus table. THe same =<BR>
>DM is used at all ranges.' Where is this table?<BR>
<BR>
  Page 10, Design Sequence Tables booklet.<BR>
<BR>
>2)It seems that atmosphere-capable PAWs (NPAW?) were left out, and the =<BR>
>interaction of naval PAWs with the battlefield was glossed over. Book 2, =<BR>
>page 42. 'Particle accelerators are devastating against planets with =<BR>
>atmosphere types of trace or vacuum, but completely ineffective against =<BR>
>other atmosphere types. If one side has a particle accelerator in orbit =<BR>
>over a trace of vacuum atmosphere world, the other side should =<BR>
>surrender.' Has anyone explored this more - specifically, are there =<BR>
>design sequences and statistics for creation and use of these weapons?<BR>
<BR>
  N-PAWS work in vaccuum but not atmospheres; C-PAWS basically the reverse.<BR>
You can add C-PAWS to Striker (CT) using FF&S, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:22:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >And if you don't like being exposed as an amoral idiot you should give up<BR>
> >your internet access. Not to mention your pathetic inability to<BR>
> stop begging<BR>
> >for more abuse in public.<BR>
> >Make up your mind.<BR>
><BR>
> Can we please get a post ban on Samwise?<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Doug, just grant him non-existence if he's bothering you.  That's what a<BR>
kill file is for.  It's just like the TV.  If you like the show that's on,<BR>
don't watch.  I notice that since people stopped rising to Legate Legions<BR>
bait, he got really quiet and even posted a few Trav messages.<BR>
<BR>
As for me, I just look at the first few lines of a post, and kill or read<BR>
based on that. I'd much rather read your interesting trav commentaries.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I myself wander OT sometimes.  But I'm trying to be better about it.<BR>
<BR>
(Sorry to all those out there who have been irritated by my occasional<BR>
rants)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:35:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone tell me where to get the Vilani font.  Is it available publicly?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2568<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:38:29 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:37:36 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA07994;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:35:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:35:39 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA07950<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:35:39 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:35:39 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006071635.MAA07950@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2568<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2569</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 10:56:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2569<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
Re: Milbots<BR>
Re: Ban request<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
RE: Striker<BR>
RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
ACQ at Warehouse 23<BR>
_Inside the Third Reich_ (was: Re: Strategic economics)<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Stripes  <BR>
<sigh><BR>
IN humour<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
Welcome to Real Life Traveller, Folks!<BR>
RE: Striker<BR>
RE: Vilani fonts<BR>
ADMIN: List ettiquite -- a reminder<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
RE: Welcome to Real Life Traveller, Folks!<BR>
Re: Striker<BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:38:38 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
<BR>
>>Killing Saddam would have been nice, but it was never a priority.<<BR>
><BR>
>And you just proved I am right.<BR>
>Thanks again.<BR>
<BR>
Ah...you DO know the difference between "The guy happens to be visiting the<BR>
bunker the day we bombed it, and we did not know it." and "We are determined<BR>
to see the guy DEAD, and we will put effort into doing that."<BR>
<BR>
Something tells me you do not see the difference.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:43:46 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milbots<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Milbots<BR>
...<BR>
>Well, my tanks tend not to cost MCr 2.5, and always have point defense (the<BR>
>TL9-12 FS tank typically has a 20mm PD cannon, and a hull-mounted ,probably<BR>
>battery-powered, main weapon. It is a choice to dedicate the turret to point<BR>
>defense, but I am willing to accept the limitations). Once everything and<BR>
>it's dog has point defense, I believe that artillery would be less effective.<BR>
<BR>
  You could always just have the PD-laser in a cupola/remote mount on <BR>
the main turret roof. The sickos would have some dedicated PD turret-<BR>
vehicles with a high-ROF anti-arty beside an AT laser - the latter being <BR>
for those grav-tanks that want to believe that "speed is armour!" :)<BR>
By installing a continuous power-supply for only one of the two you <BR>
save a fortune!<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Western navies never built an escort carrier for convoy work (me, I call it<BR>
>an escort carrier. You would call it a converted merchant ship carrying four<BR>
>MD500 helos. I would call it a 'light escort frigate'. You would call it a<BR>
>cod trawler with a towed sonar and an Ikara torpedo rocket launcher. Hmm, I<BR>
>have to do more Harpoon II ...).<BR>
<BR>
  This is actually a current discussion on SF-CONSIM (strangely, all<BR>
of the naval experts on the list seem to be incommunicado :| ), but<BR>
the amateurs and observers have hit on a few of the more obvious<BR>
down-sides to modular upgrades.<BR>
<BR>
  FYI:<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>> ... I don't know why ARAPAHO was <BR>
>> >"not found to be a particular success."<BR>
>> <BR>
>>   Which is probably worth looking into, given that modular weapons<BR>
>> systems are so much a staple of SF that they're almost a cliche by now.<BR>
>> <BR>
>Wow, that was a while ago...  <BR>
><BR>
>Among the reasons I remember:  <BR>
><BR>
>Growth of the weapon systems.  There might have been a power issue related<BR>
>to this.  <BR>
><BR>
>Lack of performance in the merchant hulls.  <BR>
><BR>
>Space limitations.  Remember we are talking about working on and around a<BR>
>few containers on the deck of a ship.  <BR>
><BR>
>There was one unrelated to the physical issues.  Adding Arapaho<BR>
>effectively made the merchant a warship, complicationg issues related to<BR>
>the crew, and the union.  <BR>
><BR>
>Finally, I think the program died simply because the need wasn't there.<BR>
>Even in Reagan's America people finally had to admit that the Soviet fleet<BR>
>wasn't a threat to convoys going to Europe and hence we didn't need the<BR>
>escorts.  Even if you don't accept that, there is the issue of<BR>
>decreasingly possibility of a war so why bother with marginal programs?  <BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:19:28<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ban request<BR>
<BR>
At 12:00 PM 6/7/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I reply as I am I addressed. When the public personal attacks cease my<BR>
>public responses will. If you find me aggravating because you disagree with<BR>
>me, rest assured I find you just as aggravating. I will not be held to some<BR>
>bizarre standard while people randomly insult my character and intelligence<BR>
>with impunity no matter who they are.<BR>
<BR>
You began the insults, and the off-topic [posts.<BR>
<BR>
I would insult your character, but you seem to lack any mesurable amount.<BR>
You make outrageous claims, then insult anyone who disgrees with you.<BR>
<BR>
Go away.<BR>
<BR>
>When I see a ban request for those who began this I may take such as this<BR>
>seriously. Until then, have a nice day.<BR>
<BR>
Rob Miracle's address is rwm@mpgn.com  contact him about a posting ban on<BR>
samewise.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:46:18 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I was very impressed by the British Dam Buster operations, and <BR>
>surprised that the tactic wasn't repeated - if not against dams,<BR>
>then against the hard-to-hurt U-Boat pens.  The mission had harsh<BR>
>casualties, but it was a first use of the tactic.<BR>
<BR>
It was. Sir Barnes Wallis designed the Tallboy and Grandslam<BR>
bombs for missions like that (and things like bridge destruction)<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, something like the Grandslam was originally the intended<BR>
bomb for use against the dams, but the bouncing bomb was designed<BR>
to take advantage of the unique circumstances to make targeting easier<BR>
<BR>
Essentially you don't have to design a bomb that can penetrate<BR>
20' of reinforced concrete or 50' of soil if you just have to get it<BR>
near the dam and then let it sink.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:51:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >Obviously, It's been a while since I looked at Striker.  In fact my set<BR>
> >looks brand new, having not been touched in 10 years or more.<BR>
> You have me<BR>
> >thinking about how to stop those darn grav tanks (short of using<BR>
> Ortillery).<BR>
><BR>
>   Don't forget that the Classic Reprints are going to include a book of<BR>
> the wargames - including Striker!<BR>
><BR>
How do Striker generated vehicle compare to FFS2?  I'm working on an<BR>
application to generate and evaluate weapon systems, and need to select a<BR>
system.  Suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
My area of expertise is really small arms.  I have designed many a gun using<BR>
the CT rules and my own expertise with small arms.  I recently acquired<BR>
FFS2, and am doing a study to see how weapons created in that system map<BR>
against actual and proposed weapon systems.<BR>
<BR>
When the MetalStorm post came up, someone suggested a small arm based on the<BR>
concept.  I started to work on this until I realized 'this thing is going to<BR>
have a hell of a recoil'.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain on Striker minutiae.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers, Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:57:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
> IIRC, something like the Grandslam was originally the intended<BR>
> bomb for use against the dams, but the bouncing bomb was designed<BR>
> to take advantage of the unique circumstances to make targeting easier<BR>
><BR>
> Essentially you don't have to design a bomb that can penetrate<BR>
> 20' of reinforced concrete or 50' of soil if you just have to get it<BR>
> near the dam and then let it sink.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Phil Kitching<BR>
> --<BR>
 One of the lovely traits of water that make dumbusters, depth charges and<BR>
sea mines so effective.  The water does an excellent job of 'shaping' the<BR>
blast.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:06 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@jvlnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
I don't know where they are these days, but I have one I <BR>
downloaded a long time ago.  If you still need it let me know off list <BR>
and I'll email you a copy  (Windows - True Type I assume.)<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jun 2000, at 9:35, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Can anyone tell me where to get the Vilani font.  Is it available<BR>
> publicly?<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:10:21 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
At 5:57 -0400 7/6/00,  "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
>"Otherland Vol. III : Mountain of Black Glass" came out in September 1999.<BR>
>It's book IV that hasn't come out yet.<BR>
<BR>
<Arghh!><BR>
<BR>
>Tad has relatively recently become a father, and as anyone with children<BR>
>knows, this can seriously upset your routine, so volume IV may be aways off.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Maybe this plan of delaying buying II, III (and now IV) until <BR>
they're all out is not a good one...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:54:32 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: ACQ at Warehouse 23<BR>
<BR>
At 20:33 -0400 6/6/00, Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
>I just went to the sjgames website.  I see 101 Patrons, but search as I<BR>
>might, I can't find ACQ anywhere...<BR>
<BR>
Search on BITS or on 'At Close Quarters'.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: _Inside the Third Reich_ (was: Re: Strategic economics)<BR>
<BR>
At 20:33 -0400 6/6/00, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
> > Speer was key in switching the economy to a war footing. If only I<BR>
> > could remember the name/title of the bio I read recently.<BR>
><BR>
>Was it Speer's memoirs, _Inside the Third Reich_?  A good read (though<BR>
>obviously self-serving), and a useful source of information concerning<BR>
>court cliques in a Charismatic Dictatorship.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, it was called something like 'Speer: His Battle with the Truth' <BR>
and was by Gita ??????<BR>
<BR>
Slightly more objective. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:46:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
At 18:03 -0400 6/6/00, Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Iain Bank's Knife Missiles?<BR>
>or the grav dart floating behind the panel in Paul<BR>
>Atreides' room<BR>
>I'm in the camp that thinks that Lynch got Herbert's vision<BR>
>about right.<BR>
<BR>
I'm in the camp that agrees (aside from the poor ending change) and <BR>
wishes that the 8 (?) hour version got shown over here...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:44:57 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 18:03 -0400 6/6/00, "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
>I was very impressed by the British Dam Buster operations, and<BR>
>surprised that the tactic wasn't repeated - if not against dams,<BR>
>then against the hard-to-hurt U-Boat pens.  The mission had harsh<BR>
>casualties, but it was a first use of the tactic.<BR>
<BR>
Didn't they switch to the Tall Boy and Grandslam bombs to try and use <BR>
shockwaves against the U-Boat Pens?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:19:40 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stripes  <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
...<BR>
>>world. Hell, like Bill Murry said in Stripes "Our ancestors were kicked out<BR>
>>of the best countries...". <BR>
><BR>
>"We're Americans!  Our ancestors were kicked out of every civilized country<BR>
>on Earth!  We're mongrels, <feels recruit's nose> see? His nose is cold!"<BR>
><BR>
>Great movie.<BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, the Killer Winnebago from Space Gamer was pretty accurate -<BR>
we could do a Striker conversion :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:20:33 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: <sigh><BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>>  _Hussein was defeated_??<BR>
><BR>
>He lost Kuwait, a good chunk of his army, and hasn't been able to rebuild.<BR>
<BR>
  Right, next time I'll quote the entire bloody sketch to make sure that<BR>
everyone gets it. Serves me right, colonials and British humour...    :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:20:58 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: IN humour<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: It's so hard to say goodbye OT: (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )<BR>
...<BR>
>ObTrav: The Imperial Army is stuck in numerous quagmires on internal<BR>
>security missions and the like.<BR>
<BR>
  And those things wouldn't happen if the tasking (& budget) were assigned<BR>
to the Navy and left to blockading! Numerous studies have proven that<BR>
economic sanctions enforced by numerous addtional promotion slots are<BR>
always effective - and if you don't like the studies we have, we'll just<BR>
write some more. [files, Navy Information Office]<BR>
<BR>
 {INI tag: we've just _got_ to do something about the 3-drink minimum<BR>
in the current Sector Navy Staff}<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:21:42 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing<BR>
...<BR>
>>On the combined points of attrition and political necessity (i.e., sit<BR>
>with thumbs up butts long enough and the Sovs make a separate peace?) it<BR>
...<BR>
>The Soviets threat to surrender is relevant of course. Decisive enough? I am<BR>
>not sure. Other political considerations then have to taken into account.<BR>
<BR>
  A separate peace, _not_ a surrender. The difference being that the<BR>
Allies end up being unable to liberate Western Europe (except by their<BR>
own peace settlement), let alone dictate the removal of Hitlers regime.  <BR>
<BR>
>>Not in sufficient numbers with sufficient bomb-loads to deliver<BR>
>the damage considered necessary - by LeMay. Yes, carrier strikes<BR>
...<BR>
>Right - by LeMay. To anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
  Nowadays, not a whole lot; it's kind of sad to say, but the main point<BR>
in favour of USAAF bombing of cities was the hopes of earning a permanent<BR>
separate USAF organization (/budge/officer pool).<BR>
<BR>
>>I suspect that the Marines that would have been scheduled for the<BR>
>Kyushu beaches would have considered it a good deal if it meant that<BR>
>Japanese responses to their beach-heads were going to be crippled by<BR>
>bombers flying from those islands (incl. Okinawa).<<BR>
><BR>
>But I would not have required an invasion so...<BR>
<BR>
  It is unfair (IMHO) to second-guess what everyone assumed was going<BR>
to be necessary to end the war; the Japanese were not going to give up<BR>
except perhaps after a couple years of famine - which was worth a try<BR>
for a negotiated settlement - they did, after all, steal Korea fair &<BR>
square, and were quite fond of Manchuria.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:22:06 -0500 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Welcome to Real Life Traveller, Folks!<BR>
<BR>
- -- quote --<BR>
Laser Shoots Down Rocket for First Time<BR>
<BR>
By Jim Wolf<BR>
<BR>
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A laser-based system has shot down<BR>
a rocket in a successful test of breakthrough technology<BR>
designed by TRW Corp. (NYSE:TRW - news), the U.S. Army said<BR>
Wednesday.<BR>
<BR>
The test was the first in a series before the high-energy<BR>
laser is handed over to Israel in the coming months to help<BR>
protect its northern border with Lebanon against short-range<BR>
rocket threats.<BR>
<BR>
"We've just turned science fiction into reality," Lt. Gen.<BR>
John Costello, head of the Army Space and Missile Defense<BR>
Command, said in a statement released by his headquarters in<BR>
Huntsville, Ala(bama)...<BR>
<BR>
- -- end quote --<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The full story is at:<BR>
<BR>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000607/tc/laser_dc_2.html<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  It's about time....<BR>
<BR>
David Smart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:25:48 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
All this talk of Striker gets me wondering:  How does Striker II compare<BR>
to the original?  I own it but haven't played it, and have never seen the<BR>
original.  I'm beginning to wonder if I'm sitting on a gem or just a pale<BR>
reflection of the original.  Opinions?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:31:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
Yes, Please.<BR>
<BR>
I can use windows and/or mac.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James<BR>
> Pearson<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:15 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I don't know where they are these days, but I have one I <BR>
> downloaded a long time ago.  If you still need it let me know off list <BR>
> and I'll email you a copy  (Windows - True Type I assume.)<BR>
> <BR>
> On 7 Jun 2000, at 9:35, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Can anyone tell me where to get the Vilani font.  Is it available<BR>
> > publicly?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Thanks<BR>
> > <BR>
> > --<BR>
> > Tod Glenn<BR>
> > webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> > http://www.travellercentral.com <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
> Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
> -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
> http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:35:58 -0400<BR>
From: Rob Miracle <rmiracle@iencentral.com><BR>
Subject: ADMIN: List ettiquite -- a reminder<BR>
<BR>
Mailing lists, including this one expect cordial behavior out of <BR>
everyone.  If you have a personal disagreement with someone that has to do <BR>
with their person or personality, please take it off list.  No one on here <BR>
should be hostile or harassing to anyone else.<BR>
<BR>
List is a very old and distinguished mailing list and overall is one of the <BR>
best behaved lists on the Internet.  It is a very good example of a self <BR>
maintaining list.  I rarely have to get involved in problems, so when I do, <BR>
I take all mis-behavior reports seriously and such reports will be <BR>
investigated.  I also believe in the three strikes rule.  You get a <BR>
warning, then a suspension, then a boot from the list.<BR>
<BR>
As serious as I take behavior, since it can be detrimental to list <BR>
function, so are off-topic posts.  Please refrain from making such <BR>
posts.  If you get the urge to post off toping and you put an OT: in the <BR>
subject to warn people its off topic, you should perhaps think twice before <BR>
continuing.   Examples of off topic posts are discussions of modern day <BR>
warfare, politics, religion, breaking news etc.  While we all want to talk <BR>
about them, ** IT AINT TRAVELLER **<BR>
and this is a Traveller list.<BR>
<BR>
I thank you and the hundreds of members of this list thank you for your <BR>
attention to these small rules.<BR>
<BR>
Rob Miracle<BR>
yer list Mom.<BR>
- --<BR>
Rob Miracle <rmiracle@iencentral.com><BR>
Director of Internet Development<BR>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious<BR>
http://www.iencentral.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:37:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Bruce Macintosh wrote:<BR>
> I have a couple of desgins for this. Are you using FFS1 or FFS2?<BR>
<BR>
For whatever it's worth, I'm using the "T4 edition" of "Fire, Fusion,<BR>
and Steel."<BR>
                                                          - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:41:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Welcome to Real Life Traveller, Folks!<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Smart, David<BR>
> J (David)<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:22 AM<BR>
> To: 'traveller@mpgn.com'<BR>
> Subject: Welcome to Real Life Traveller, Folks!<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> -- quote --<BR>
> Laser Shoots Down Rocket for First Time<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Check out TRW's web page for more detailed info and photos.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.trw.com/thel/> <BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:44:07 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler writes:<BR>
> All this talk of Striker gets me wondering:  How does Striker II compare<BR>
> to the original?  I own it but haven't played it, and have never seen the<BR>
> original.  I'm beginning to wonder if I'm sitting on a gem or just a pale<BR>
> reflection of the original.  Opinions?<BR>
<BR>
Pale reflection.  Not sure how the gameplay compares, but Striker was really<BR>
notable for having the first non-starship vehicle design system for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:51:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
At 05:11 AM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    <Quick cut to Penguin Boy sitting at a piano wearing only a smile & his<BR>
>utility belt.><BR>
><BR>
>    (Sorry, Doug, but there is now way I can play a piano, naked or<BR>
>otherwise.)<BR>
<BR>
Like I can?<BR>
<BR>
"They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out my<BR>
Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
					-- ad copy<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:43:53 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
...<BR>
>>as well as reserve draw-downs elsewhere would have been feeding the 3FW<BR>
>>front, _even if local command felt it needless_; given comm-lag, once a<BR>
>>war breaks out the necessary forces are going to be put in place, perhaps<BR>
>>especially once it's realized that the war start may have been premature<BR>
>>for the Zhos'.<BR>
><BR>
>I severely doubt that an admittedly minor war in the SM would affect the<BR>
>forces in and around the Solomani Rim.  That's why the Navy has Corridor<BR>
>Fleet.<BR>
<BR>
  Corridor Fleet is still only intended as a first wave of replacements -<BR>
in a major war fleets from elsewhere are going to be needed; these were<BR>
probably in motion before it began to be become apparent that this might<BR>
not be a Big War (which the SRW, OTOH,  most assuredly was).<BR>
<BR>
>If anything, the only Imperial response rimward would be a hightened level<BR>
>of alertness; which might trigger the Rim War in of itself!<BR>
<BR>
  Ooh, a Sollie apologist in our midst!!<BR>
<BR>
  Or merely more Templar dis-information?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:10:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steven<BR>
> Hudson<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 12:06 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Striker<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 06:29:43 -0700<BR>
> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> >Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >>> Hmmm, think I'll calculate this out. What system are you<BR>
> using to create<BR>
> >>> your laser tank?<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Striker (I; CT).<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >Obviously, It's been a while since I looked at Striker.  In fact my set<BR>
> >looks brand new, having not been touched in 10 years or more.<BR>
> You have me<BR>
> >thinking about how to stop those darn grav tanks (short of using<BR>
> Ortillery).<BR>
><BR>
>   Don't forget that the Classic Reprints are going to include a book of<BR>
> the wargames - including Striker!<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Now that IS good news!<BR>
<BR>
Gentalmen:<BR>
<BR>
While you are thinking about tank design, might I point out that a turret<BR>
can have a turrent on top of it.  A series of novels called Tankwar included<BR>
an advanced tank designed for comando style, behind the lines combat.  Part<BR>
of it's design was a downsized Phalanx system in a turret on top of the main<BR>
gun turret.  It served several purposes:  antimissle, antiaircraft,<BR>
antipersonel, and light antiarmor.<BR>
<BR>
The tank also includes vertically launched antiair/antiarmor missles and<BR>
reactive actor.  The tank carried a crew of 4.  Driver, main gun<BR>
loader/mechanic, main gun gunner/EW expert, and commander.  The main gun was<BR>
loaded by an automated carosel loader.  The loader job was to cue the rounds<BR>
based on expected need.  Rounds not in the loader took much longer to get<BR>
into the main gun.<BR>
<BR>
Interest series of books.  For a diferent take on SF tanks there is Hammer's<BR>
Slammers and Bolo.  Two other good series.  Do not tick off a model 30 Bolo!<BR>
There is a reason they call them 'Planetary seige units'.<BR>
<BR>
There is a good series on battlesuit comando operations.  The series is<BR>
titled CADS.<BR>
<BR>
There is also a good series on warbots as a primary military system and<BR>
there limitations.  Not surprisingly the series is called Warbots.  It<BR>
addresses a lot of the problems of armed robots as soldiers and combined<BR>
infantry robot operations.  Rather than wade into the various<BR>
discussions/arguements on these subjects I thought I'd suggest these series<BR>
as sources for information/amunition for those interested.<BR>
<BR>
I read entirely to much military SF (Grin!)<BR>
<BR>
Charles L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2569<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:56:23 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:55:45 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA11766;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:20 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA11740<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:20 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:20 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006071754.NAA11740@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2569<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2570</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 3:14:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2570<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Striker<BR>
TRW Laser<BR>
RE: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Weapons Wanted<BR>
Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
RE: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Re: IN humour<BR>
Re: Ban request<BR>
RE: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
RE: Vilani fonts<BR>
Re: IN humour<BR>
[OT] Sci-Fi Movie question<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Striker<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
RE: Striker<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:00:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
> can have a turrent on top of it.  A series of novels called <BR>
> Tankwar included<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Interest series of books.  For a diferent take on SF tanks there <BR>
> is Hammer's<BR>
> Slammers and Bolo.  Two other good series.  Do not tick off a <BR>
> model 30 Bolo!<BR>
> There is a reason they call them 'Planetary seige units'.<BR>
> <BR>
> There is a good series on battlesuit comando operations.  The series is<BR>
> titled CADS.<BR>
> <BR>
> There is also a good series on warbots as a primary military system and<BR>
> there limitations.  Not surprisingly the series is called Warbots.  It<BR>
> addresses a lot of the problems of armed robots as soldiers and combined<BR>
> infantry robot operations.  Rather than wade into the various<BR>
> discussions/arguements on these subjects I thought I'd suggest <BR>
> these series<BR>
> as sources for information/amunition for those interested.<BR>
> <BR>
> I read entirely to much military SF (Grin!)<BR>
> <BR>
> Charles L.<BR>
<BR>
But are these good reading.  I am always on the prowl for GOOD military SF.<BR>
Let me know, and it's heigh-ho, off to Amazon I go!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:18:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: TRW Laser<BR>
<BR>
Interesting photos of the laser device itself.  It looks like a variation of<BR>
the chemical laser the DoD had mounted in a Boeing 747, remarkable like the<BR>
old carbon-arc spot lights used in WWII.<BR>
"Hey look, old fashioned spot lights"<BR>
<BR>
ZAP<BR>
<BR>
"OK, maybe not"<BR>
<BR>
I see it's a chemical laser (deuterium fluoride).  There's a nice combo to<BR>
have sharing your laser tank with your crew.  Does Striker or FFS2 make<BR>
mention of chemical lasers? If battlefield lasers using chemical reactions<BR>
are required to get the required power, that's going to change things for<BR>
laser tanks (or man portable lasers).<BR>
<BR>
What flavor of laser is likely to find it's way into military service for<BR>
weapons use?  Canon laser weapons are usually described as requiring a power<BR>
feed, so are the using gas? I can remember building a CO2 laser back in my<BR>
high school days, but really haven't kept up with the technology, although I<BR>
seem to recall that x-ray lasers hadn't lived up to their theoretical<BR>
promise.<BR>
<BR>
OK gearheads, enlighten me<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:20:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
On Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:52 AM<BR>
Douglas E. Berry said,<BR>
<BR>
> "They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out my<BR>
> Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
<BR>
Pulled out of where???<BR>
<BR>
Did you see where he had that thing?  I hope it's self cleaning!  ;)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  I just love players that try and discreetly leave there ship and<BR>
proceed through the port facilities while carrying heavy ordinance.  Just<BR>
why do players think they can carry a full machine gun with grenade launcher<BR>
and a ton of ammo and not notice?  I had one guy try to walk off a ship with<BR>
an FGMP "hidden" under his jacket. *shrug*<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
================================== ]<BR>
"Yeah, it's a 50 calibre...  They used to use it to hunt buffalo with...  Up<BR>
close!  It's only legal in two states...  This isn't one of them." -Frank<BR>
Dooley, Armed and Dangerous<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:36:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Weapons Wanted<BR>
<BR>
The Mercenary's Guide to Weapons is soliciting submissions of your weapons<BR>
designs.  If you are a gearhead who likes to design guns, this is the place<BR>
to showcase them.  All traveller systems are welcome (CT, MT, TNE, T4 and<BR>
GT).<BR>
<BR>
This site focuses on small arms and infantry support weapons, not tanks<BR>
please (not yet, anyway).  We also have a section for manufacturers if you<BR>
would like to include your corporate write-up or UCP.<BR>
<BR>
See http://weapons.travellercentral.com for more info.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:47:16 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
<BR>
I was looking over the GDW CT Double Adventure "Marooned/Marooned Alone",<BR>
and came up with this question.<BR>
<BR>
Spoiler Space, if you haven't read the adventure and don't want details<BR>
in case a GM throws it at you.<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
||<BR>
|<BR>
|||<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
||<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
|<BR>
<BR>
Now then...<BR>
<BR>
The MacGuffin for the adventure is a small tube.  If you look through<BR>
it, you can see a picture of a young woman engaged in an erotic act.<BR>
The act is, by her current husband's worldview, considered quite<BR>
obscene* - even though the picture was recorded many years ago, if her<BR>
husband sees it her opinions will no longer have any effect on his<BR>
politics.  Yes, he holds an important political position.<BR>
<BR>
Prior to the start of the adventure, the picture had been somehow<BR>
obtained from a person who was using it to blackmailthe noblewoman.<BR>
The point of the adventure is to escape from pursuers with the picture,<BR>
handing it off to a trusted person who (it is supposed) will place<BR>
it in the noblewoman's hands.  Once she has it, proving to herself<BR>
that it is not in the blackmailer's hands any more, she will<BR>
probably destroy it**.<BR>
<BR>
My question: is it possible to create a picture that can be seen with<BR>
the naked eye, but cannot be copied?  <BR>
<BR>
This adventure seems to require that this picture be the only copy,<BR>
and that there cannot be any more copies.<BR>
<BR>
The human eye sees images by responding to light, so I don't know <BR>
of a way to make a visible image that a light-sensitive camera <BR>
wouldn't record (and make a copy of) as well.<BR>
<BR>
The only angle I can think of: verification.  It may be that some<BR>
quality of what the picture is printed on or contained in makes it<BR>
easy to prove that the picture has not been altered in any way.<BR>
A copy would not have this quality, and could thus be explained<BR>
away as a fraud.  It seems a little thin to me at this point, though.<BR>
<BR>
Any ideas?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
*No, the adventure doesn't tell us what she's doing in the picture.<BR>
We're just told that the picture is "pornographic" and that her<BR>
husband would consider the act depicted as very obscene.  Yes, I<BR>
knew some TMLers would ask.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
**She might keep it, if the picture represents something of<BR>
sentimental value to her.  She'll just have to keep it secret from<BR>
her husband, and (foolishly?) hope no one finds it.<BR>
Hmmm...what if the tube is originally hers, and what makes the <BR>
picture "obscene" is the idea that she would keep such a picture of <BR>
herself on her person?  If her original ownership of the picture tube <BR>
could be proven, *and* that it had not been tampered with...  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:37:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:43 AM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>>Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>>I severely doubt that an admittedly minor war in the SM would affect the<BR>
>>forces in and around the Solomani Rim.  That's why the Navy has Corridor<BR>
>>Fleet.<BR>
><BR>
>  Corridor Fleet is still only intended as a first wave of replacements -<BR>
>in a major war fleets from elsewhere are going to be needed; these were<BR>
>probably in motion before it began to be become apparent that this might<BR>
>not be a Big War (which the SRW, OTOH,  most assuredly was).<BR>
<BR>
Still, you have fleet avalible in Vland, Lishun.. you could send thousands<BR>
of ships to the Marches without ever touching the fleets in place in the<BR>
Rim.  Especially with a very tense political situation.<BR>
<BR>
>>If anything, the only Imperial response rimward would be a hightened level<BR>
>>of alertness; which might trigger the Rim War in of itself!<BR>
><BR>
>  Ooh, a Sollie apologist in our midst!!<BR>
><BR>
>  Or merely more Templar dis-information?<BR>
<BR>
fnord.<BR>
<BR>
If I were the commander of the Navy at that point, given the sporadic<BR>
nature of the 3FW war and the immense threat posed by the Solomani forces,<BR>
I'd bleed coreward sectors dry before I'd more one squadron away from the<BR>
old SAR. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:41:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
At 11:20 AM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>On Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:52 AM<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry said,<BR>
><BR>
>> "They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out my<BR>
>> Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
><BR>
>Pulled out of where???<BR>
<BR>
the piano of course.. where did you th. . .  You, sir, have a sick, sick<BR>
imagination and a poor grasp of body cavities.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  I just love players that try and discreetly leave there ship and<BR>
>proceed through the port facilities while carrying heavy ordinance.  Just<BR>
>why do players think they can carry a full machine gun with grenade launcher<BR>
>and a ton of ammo and not notice?  I had one guy try to walk off a ship with<BR>
>an FGMP "hidden" under his jacket. *shrug*<BR>
<BR>
I had a guy get on my van with a shotgun.  I didn't see it while I was<BR>
loading his luggage, but when I turned around to see what airline he was<BR>
on, he had this Remington on his knees!  Nearly ruined a good set of work<BR>
pants, but he wasn't a thief, just very, very dim.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Stupid passenger tricks?  Ever *really* regret being the only guy<BR>
on board with Steward-1?<BR>
><BR>
>G.D.D.<BR>
>Thing under the stairs,<BR>
>Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
>Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
>================================== ]<BR>
>"Yeah, it's a 50 calibre...  They used to use it to hunt buffalo with...  Up<BR>
>close!  It's only legal in two states...  This isn't one of them." -Frank<BR>
>Dooley, Armed and Dangerous<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:53:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: IN humour<BR>
<BR>
At 10:20 AM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>ObTrav: The Imperial Army is stuck in numerous quagmires on internal<BR>
>>security missions and the like.<BR>
><BR>
>  And those things wouldn't happen if the tasking (& budget) were assigned<BR>
>to the Navy and left to blockading! Numerous studies have proven that<BR>
>economic sanctions enforced by numerous addtional promotion slots are<BR>
>always effective - and if you don't like the studies we have, we'll just<BR>
>write some more. [files, Navy Information Office]<BR>
<BR>
Feh.  Nothing brings in the promotion points like *lots* of shiny campaign<BR>
medals.. sure it's an internal security mission, but if we say it's<BR>
counter-insurgency, whammo! medals and promotions all around!<BR>
<BR>
Plus, vacc-boy, we're down here on the ground with all the lovely locals.<BR>
Have fun with the plumbing hook-ups!<BR>
<BR>
> {INI tag: we've just _got_ to do something about the 3-drink minimum<BR>
>in the current Sector Navy Staff}<BR>
<BR>
Vacuum-suckers can't hold their booze!  The Regimental Mess has a<BR>
five-drink minimum! (Toasts to the Emperor, the Empress, the Marquis, the<BR>
Colonel and his wife, the Regimental banner, and fallen comrades.)  Then we<BR>
get to serious drinking!<BR>
<BR>
Major Douglas E. Berry.<BR>
HHC, 3rd Bn (Lift), 78th Efati Rifles (The Wolfhounds)<BR>
37th Tank Division (Grav), Unified Army of Regina<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:16:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ban request<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/7/00 9:00 AM, samwise1@email.msn.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I reply as I am I addressed. When the public personal attacks cease my<BR>
> public responses will. If you find me aggravating because you disagree with<BR>
> me, rest assured I find you just as aggravating. I will not be held to some<BR>
> bizarre standard while people randomly insult my character and intelligence<BR>
> with impunity no matter who they are.<BR>
> When I see a ban request for those who began this I may take such as this<BR>
> seriously. Until then, have a nice day.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
AFAICT, you were the one throwing insults and making personal attacks. While<BR>
I agree with much of what you say, the manner in which you say it is<BR>
offensive. I would never /ask/ for someone to be removed from the list, as I<BR>
am an extremely tolerant fellow, but in your case I will not object. I don't<BR>
even recall Legate calling anyone an "amoral idiot", and though you only did<BR>
so by inference, it was still quite over the line. I am not bothered by<BR>
this, but you must understand, you reap what you sow. Oh, and also judge not<BR>
lest ye be judged. Amoral? Dude, anothers morality is none of your business.<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' Ze'Abe Akella<BR>
Son of the Right Hand<BR>
The Ravenous Wolf<BR>
Patriarch of Clan Hendricks<BR>
Prince of the Undeclared<BR>
Warder of the Sacred Herb<BR>
Steward of the Garden Eternal<BR>
Lord of House Akella<BR>
High Epopt of the Brotherhood for the Abolition of Temporal/Spatial Reality<BR>
and the Unification of the Shekinah<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:33:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
On Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:42 AM<BR>
Douglas E. Berry said,<BR>
<BR>
> the piano of course.. where did you th. . .  You, sir, have a sick, sick<BR>
> imagination and a poor grasp of body cavities.<BR>
<BR>
On the first point, thank you.<BR>
And on the second:<BR>
I must confess that due to a lack of knowledge of the exact specifications<BR>
for this weapon, I was unaware of the dimensions, and I naturally assumed<BR>
that you had studied some ninja art allowing for the possibility. ;)<BR>
<BR>
> I had a guy get on my van with a shotgun.  I didn't see it while I was<BR>
> loading his luggage, but when I turned around to see what airline he was<BR>
> on, he had this Remington on his knees!  Nearly ruined a good set of work<BR>
> pants, but he wasn't a thief, just very, very dim.<BR>
<BR>
When I was working at a convenience store a while back I had a fellow clerk<BR>
walked in with a shotgun at night.  Apparently he was looking for something<BR>
to clean his gun with.  He came up behind me when I was trying to load the<BR>
lottery machine and I caught his reflection in the window. Due to my jumpy<BR>
reflexes and training I had spun around, taken it from him, and whacked him<BR>
upside the head with the stock before I realized what was going on.  The<BR>
next day the manager kept playing the security vid over and over again.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Stupid passenger tricks?  Ever *really* regret being the only guy<BR>
> on board with Steward-1?<BR>
<BR>
I always love the problem passenger scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
==================================<BR>
"The Army has carried the American ideal to its logical conclusion. Not only<BR>
do they prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race, creed and color, but<BR>
also on the grounds of ability." -Tom Lehrer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:16:27 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@jvlnet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
I'm at work now, but a little digging produced:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.wererat.net/fonts/future.htm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jun 2000, at 10:31, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, Please.<BR>
> <BR>
> I can use windows and/or mac.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
> <BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James<BR>
> > Pearson<BR>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:15 AM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > I don't know where they are these days, but I have one I <BR>
> > downloaded a long time ago.  If you still need it let me know off list <BR>
> > and I'll email you a copy  (Windows - True Type I assume.)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > On 7 Jun 2000, at 9:35, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Can anyone tell me where to get the Vilani font.  Is it available<BR>
> > > publicly?<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > > Thanks<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > > --<BR>
> > > Tod Glenn<BR>
> > > webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> > > http://www.travellercentral.com <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
> > Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
> > -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
> > http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:22:43 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: IN humour<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > {INI tag: we've just _got_ to do something about the 3-drink minimum<BR>
> >in the current Sector Navy Staff}<BR>
> <BR>
> Vacuum-suckers can't hold their booze!  The Regimental Mess has a<BR>
> five-drink minimum! (Toasts to the Emperor, the Empress, the Marquis, the<BR>
> Colonel and his wife, the Regimental banner, and fallen comrades.)  Then we<BR>
> get to serious drinking!<BR>
> <BR>
> Major Douglas E. Berry.<BR>
> HHC, 3rd Bn (Lift), 78th Efati Rifles (The Wolfhounds)<BR>
> 37th Tank Division (Grav), Unified Army of Regina<BR>
<BR>
Feh! Typical mil-spec grunts the both of ye! Drink minimums are for<BR>
those with no adventure left in their souls. <BR>
<BR>
Come aboard the "Flat Armadillo". Jerry's been whipping up a nice ol'<BR>
batch of Brew, we'll see who has what minimum...last one over the table<BR>
wins!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
Field (as if there were any other division!) <BR>
IISS.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:39:18 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: [OT] Sci-Fi Movie question<BR>
<BR>
Hi all<BR>
<BR>
  I have thsi movie in my mind, that I can't recall the name of.<BR>
If any of you could help but my mind to rest I would be eternally<BR>
grateful.<BR>
<BR>
The movie is about a post-acopalyptic world with some kind<BR>
of city sanctuaries. Our hero is to transport a prisoner<BR>
across the wasteland on board a bus. At the first<BR>
gas-stop they find the workers there killed .<BR>
<BR>
The movie is rather Mad Max like with a punk-gang on bikes<BR>
as the bad guys. It must be 10 years since I saw this movie<BR>
so it is not new.<BR>
  <BR>
Anyone have a clue?<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:06:16 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
We went into this a little bit in "Rim of Fire."  My take on it was that the<BR>
two wars didn't interact directly (e.g. by one war having an effect on the<BR>
balance of forces available for the other).  However, they affected one<BR>
another indirectly by affecting politics at the Imperial Court.<BR>
<BR>
Idea was that Margaret II began to push Imperial policy toward a<BR>
confrontation with the SAR, but died before that trend could reach its<BR>
natural conclusion.  Her grandson Styryx was a weak Emperor who<BR>
let the policy languish during the early part of his reign (incidentally<BR>
giving the SAR plenty of time to build up its resources and armament).<BR>
Late in his reign he matured somewhat and resumed his mother's<BR>
strategy toward the Solomani, but then the Third Frontier War led to<BR>
his abdication.  Notice that the Rim War began less than a year<BR>
after his son Gavin ascended the throne -- Gavin was apparently a<BR>
much more firm-handed individual than his father.<BR>
<BR>
I'd conclude that the Third Frontier War may have hastened the<BR>
onset of the Solomani Rim War -- by bringing a more militant and<BR>
determined Emperor to the throne earlier than he would otherwise<BR>
have reached it.  The Imperial defeat in the 3FW may also have<BR>
been a contributing factor to its *victory* in the SRW, since the<BR>
SAR was continuing to prepare its forces throughout the period.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:59:38 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> All this talk of Striker gets me wondering:  How does Striker II compare<BR>
> to the original?  I own it but haven't played it, and have never seen the<BR>
> original.  I'm beginning to wonder if I'm sitting on a gem or just a pale<BR>
> reflection of the original.  Opinions?<BR>
<BR>
Well, Striker II uses the same order-chit command-and-control system as<BR>
GDW's Command Decision miniatures rules.  Since I'm fond of the CD<BR>
system (my first micro-armor game system), I also like Striker II.<BR>
<BR>
Striker II also gives you the "putting heat back into plasma" design<BR>
sequence upgrade for TNE/FF&S.<BR>
<BR>
Although I once owned Striker, I never played it, so I really can't<BR>
compare it to Striker II.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:59:30 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> > ISTR That the Mosquito carried as big a bomb load as the B17 Flying Fortress?<BR>
> Not even close.<BR>
> Mossie:  2,000lbs. (4 x 500lb)  (A lot of US fighters could carry that much)<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure I remember cases of the Mosquito carrying a single 4,000 lbs<BR>
'Cookie' bomb. And I was under the impression the 'Highball' bouncing<BR>
bomb variant weighed over 2,000 lbs too.<BR>
<BR>
May be wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:22:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I read entirely to much military SF (Grin!)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Charles L.<BR>
><BR>
> But are these good reading.  I am always on the prowl for GOOD<BR>
> military SF.<BR>
> Let me know, and it's heigh-ho, off to Amazon I go!<BR>
<BR>
Everybody has there own tastes.  All I can say is that I enjoyed them enough<BR>
to read the entire series of each.  Try the first book in each and see what<BR>
you think.  Oddly Tankwar, CADS, and, Warbot either got better as the series<BR>
went on or sayed as good as the first book.  All three are 'dark future'<BR>
books set in earth's not so nice future.  None of them sugar coat war as a<BR>
subject.<BR>
<BR>
David Drake's (Hammer's Slammers) has sold well and won some awards IIRC.<BR>
He's the best writer of the titles I mentioned as far as name recognition is<BR>
concurned.  His stories vary their focus greatly from book to book.  In one<BR>
book a mechanic and his gung ho apprentice have to drive out one of the MBTs<BR>
and provide cover for a convoy of mostly unarmed support personell when they<BR>
are all traped on a world when the Slammer's merc ticket goes very sour.<BR>
The Slammers MBTs are fussion powered GEVs armed with a really big fussion<BR>
cannon.  They are running for the space port with a lot of unhappy locals in<BR>
persuit.  In another the main characters and the crew of an anti<BR>
aircraft/spacecraft/missle fussion gattling gun stuck definding a town.  In<BR>
another the main characters are military intel.<BR>
<BR>
I can't say enough good things about the Bolo books and short stories.  They<BR>
are one of my all time favorites but there are enough variations in the<BR>
storys that some people love some and hate others.<BR>
<BR>
They cover to many worlds and situations to fit everyones tastes.  "For the<BR>
Honor of the Regiment" would be a good one to understand the Bolos.  It's<BR>
also call "Field Test" in some collections.  The stories are about a series<BR>
of tanks that over a long period of time and many upgrades become sentient.<BR>
The first units are little more than automated M1A1s.  The later model get<BR>
much smarter.  They are built for many different funtions.  Their model<BR>
number mostly refers to their brain power.  The stories are also about those<BR>
men and women that serve with them.  For security reasons the higher models<BR>
are programed to obey only curtain persons and they are very loyal.  This<BR>
causes some interesting situations.  In one case an accident causes a real<BR>
big bolo to become the 'pet' of a ten year old girl on a colony world.  That<BR>
model tank can't fight without it's controler.  Bad guys show up...good<BR>
story follows.<BR>
<BR>
Note, some Bolos as space and/or jump capable.<BR>
<BR>
Charles L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:09:31 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Macintosh wrote:<BR>
> My FFS1 design is a VTVL aircraft with AZHRAE (hybrid<BR>
> airbreathing/rocket engines) - these are very nice in FFS1.<BR>
> One version is even field-refuellable (hydrogen-burning rather than<BR>
> HCD-burning.) The VTVL one could probably be rough-field<BR>
> capable.<BR>
<BR>
Oooh! Could you post the design? Does it carry much payload?<BR>
<BR>
I'm having incredible problems with a TL-9 trans-atmospheric capable<BR>
fighter (necessary for a TL-9 system with a bunch of offworld outposts<BR>
since their system defence warships cannot enter the atmospheres under<BR>
fusion rockets...)<BR>
<BR>
Mark I: The theory was that it manoevred in space with a 1G fusion<BR>
rocket, entered the atmosphere by aerobraking and deadstick gliding,<BR>
then lit up turbofans when it reached a low enough altitude & speed. In<BR>
order to return to orbit, it had to fly as high as possible under<BR>
turbofans, then fire off a one-shot solid rocket booster to attain<BR>
orbital velocity. Unfortunately the delta-vee required to leave the<BR>
atmosphere required a HUGE rocket, so that didn't work.<BR>
<BR>
Mark II: Replaced the turbofans and SRB with a combined AZHRAE drive.<BR>
Easier in principle since the engines burned the same fuel whether<BR>
operating as turbofans, ramjets or rockets, but I still couldn't carry<BR>
enough fuel to get back to orbit. (Well, not if I wanted to carry a 20mm<BR>
gauss gun and about 4000 kg of ordnance.)<BR>
<BR>
I'm still working on it...<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:45:05 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 3:30 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
>My point was<BR>
> that given the technology available to the 3I, it should be possible to<BR>
made<BR>
> a short lived render safe mine.  This would be used as a force multiplier<BR>
or<BR>
> to fix or channelize enemy forces.  Mine fields are not effective against<BR>
a<BR>
> well prepared enemy, but they do slow him down.<BR>
<BR>
At 3I TL's, it's hard to channel Grav Tanks or Grav APC's with ground<BR>
emplaced mines...<BR>
<BR>
> >> 1st rule of artillery.  Shoot and scoot. Hence self-propelled guns.<BR>
> >> Further, artillery can usually fire a lot farther than armor (whose<BR>
main<BR>
> >> guns are generally designed to kill other tanks).  Load that arty with<BR>
> >> high-tech copperheads and start killing grav tanks from a long way off.<BR>
> >> Those grav tanks will have to get right up on the arty, which is<BR>
emplaced<BR>
> >> for indirect fire and well behind the FEBA.  You'll have to get through<BR>
the<BR>
<BR>
So some of the Grav tanks form a 'high guard' and extend the range of their<BR>
lasers considerably, as well as acting as spotters outside conventional<BR>
weapon range. Aslso, they can move in pretty fast, that FEBA is a lot<BR>
further than you think. Also your shells are limited to speeds such that<BR>
they won't burn up due to atmospheric friction, so may be in flight for<BR>
several minutes if you really *are* hundreds of miles away. The lasers from<BR>
the 'high guard' tanks can hit you in milliseconds, even from a thousand<BR>
klicks away.<BR>
<BR>
> >> enemy's defense in depth.  2nd rule of artillery.  Never deploy without<BR>
> > support.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > i) laser tanks will range to the horizon at TL 9+.<BR>
><BR>
> But not fire through terrain.  Hence the advantage of indirect fire.  I<BR>
<BR>
Stick a Meson Gun on the tank... <g><BR>
<BR>
> would be a fool to place my guns in the open.  Instead, I would use<BR>
terrain<BR>
> masking, or prepare multiple dug in firing positions, and shuttle my guns<BR>
<BR>
But they're vulnerable while moving...<BR>
<BR>
> around.  I can also mask my positions (and false one) with prismatic<BR>
> aerosol, it doesn't effect my guns.<BR>
<BR>
Or Meson Guns... <g><BR>
<BR>
> > ii) PD can slaughter "high-tech copperheads" as fast as you can pump<BR>
> > them out.<BR>
><BR>
> Pardon my ignorance, please explain PD.<BR>
<BR>
"Point Defense". ie, his 'gatling' lasers will knock out your shells long<BR>
before they reach their targets.<BR>
<BR>
> Assume my guns are of equivalent tech level.  Mass drivers, perhaps.  I<BR>
can<BR>
> pump out my high tech copperheads pretty fast.  And along the way I'm also<BR>
> shooting lots of decoys and chaff.  My copperheads are stupid.  They<BR>
ignore<BR>
<BR>
ITYM "aren't stupid"<BR>
<BR>
> anything smaller than a vehicle (like a decoy warhead), they just home in<BR>
on<BR>
> large metal objects, so they are cheap.  The decoys are even cheaper,<BR>
nested<BR>
> cones of metal, maybe 20 or 30 to a shell.  You don't know they are<BR>
dummies<BR>
> until the copperheads are released, they fall faster.  You've got an area<BR>
<BR>
Why do the real shells fall faster? Does gravity affect them more, or are<BR>
your dummies deliberately not as aerodynamic?<BR>
<BR>
> full of junk, some of which is very dangerous.  Which one do you target?<BR>
<BR>
All of them, prior to the release of the submunitions.<BR>
<BR>
> (hey, just for fun, lets throw in some prismatic aerosol with lots of WP<BR>
for<BR>
> smoke and to foul up those thermal imaging systems -- maybe some wild<BR>
weasel<BR>
> shells too).<BR>
><BR>
> > iii) artillery - especially that demanding close escort - is likely<BR>
> > going to be far less important in the big wars of the OTU than a lot<BR>
> > of us might prefer to believe; cost-benefit is going to be pretty<BR>
> > low, although a more than merely residual capability is going to be<BR>
><BR>
> Cost benefit is what keeps artillery useful.  Shells are cheap.  With mass<BR>
> drivers they are even cheaper.  Maybe I don't even need my copperheads.  I<BR>
> use high angle fire and shells loaded with dozens of superdense<BR>
penetrators.<BR>
<BR>
High angle fire simply gives the targeting sensors of the PD longer to<BR>
acquire them...<BR>
<BR>
And means you are closer to the battlefield for reprisals.<BR>
<BR>
> Personally I like depleted uranium, hard, dense and pyrophoric. the rounds<BR>
> are nice and cheap, so I buy lots of them (and I mean lots).  A bursting<BR>
> charge opens the carrier at a preset altitude, and centripedal force<BR>
<BR>
So they explode on the way up? You'll find them widely scattered on the way<BR>
back down...<BR>
<BR>
> distributes them nicely.  Now it's raining lots and lots of VERY BAD<BR>
THINGS.<BR>
> Just hunks of metal, so electronic countermeasures are useless.<BR>
<BR>
Well lasers are just light. If I can see you I can hit you. No ECM.<BR>
<BR>
> Just so any infantry won't feel left out, we'll include some HE shells<BR>
too.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm, think I'll calculate this out. What system are you using to create<BR>
> your laser tank?<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, thanks for the comments.  This is interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it is. And at least it's on topic <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2570<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (rly-yh05.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.37]) by air-yh05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:13:59 2000<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:13:16 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA22596;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:12:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:11:35 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA22513<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:11:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:11:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006072211.SAA22513@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2570<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2571</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 5:37:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2571<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
A not so Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: Bragging<BR>
Call for Traveller lists<BR>
Re: ADMIN: List ettiquite -- a reminder<BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
Re: [OT] Sci-Fi Movie question<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: costs of troops (was: Milibots)<BR>
FS Light APC and FS D gun<BR>
Re: ADMIN: List ettiquite -- a reminder<BR>
A new picture request<BR>
Marooned Alone Whole message is a SPOILER <BR>
Re: ground combat<BR>
Re: Imperial Ministry of Propaganda<BR>
Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:11:56 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> The Navy's SSBN fleet has been similarly reduced. Total submarine strength<BR>
> (Both SSN and SSBN) is half of what it was ten years ago.<BR>
<BR>
(Regarding nuclear reductions in general.) Surely this can only be a<BR>
good thing, guys?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
War is bad.<BR>
Total war is really bad.<BR>
Nuclear war is a great card game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:19:15 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
"N.I.C.Bradbeer" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> > > ISTR That the Mosquito carried as big a bomb load as the B17 Flying Fortress?<BR>
> > Not even close.<BR>
> > Mossie:  2,000lbs. (4 x 500lb)  (A lot of US fighters could carry that much)<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm sure I remember cases of the Mosquito carrying a single 4,000 lbs<BR>
> 'Cookie' bomb. And I was under the impression the 'Highball' bouncing<BR>
> bomb variant weighed over 2,000 lbs too.<BR>
> <BR>
> May be wrong.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18.htm<BR>
<BR>
gives some specifications on the Mosquito, and supports the 4,000 lb<BR>
payload.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:28:38 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
<BR>
Spoiler space<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> My question: is it possible to create a picture that can be seen with<BR>
> the naked eye, but cannot be copied?<BR>
<BR>
Hologram, maybe?.  As long as you don't break it into pieces.<BR>
Not a Star Trek hologram.  Ones I saw in high school physics<BR>
were on a thick red film.  If you cut that in half, each half would<BR>
have the same image.  I'm sure there is some way to copy them,<BR>
but handwave some verfication stuff and you could have a<BR>
hologram plate that copying would damage/destroy.  If the plate<BR>
is still intact, you know it hasn't been separated and disseminated.<BR>
If the plate is small enough that a hand-held camera could<BR>
create the image in the first place, then it would be easily of a<BR>
good size for a viewing tube of the size needed.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:29:21 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: A not so Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
i'm looking at TL 12 drive systems in the FFS2 spreadsheet by Andy Akins<BR>
<BR>
What is the Npulse drive?  How is it different from the fusion rocket?<BR>
aren't they both pretty dirty?<BR>
<BR>
Also, at what tech level does HePLAR become available?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:27:35 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> "They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out my<BR>
> Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
<BR>
I don't wanna know what you pulled it out of. I'm hoping you pulled it<BR>
out of the piano, but it's probably better for my fragile little mind<BR>
not to know.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:14:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations!!<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 4:46 AM<BR>
Subject: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Completely off-topic, but you lot are probably the best people to<BR>
understand<BR>
>how this feels.<BR>
><BR>
>I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science Fiction<BR>
>convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in<BR>
the<BR>
>short story competition.<BR>
><BR>
>I even got asked to autograph it !<BR>
><BR>
>For those that are interested, I also got to prop up the bar with Sean<BR>
>McMullen (an Aussie writer) and Tad Wiliams ( "Tailchaser's Song", "Memory,<BR>
>Sorrow & Thorn"; & "OtherLand").<BR>
><BR>
>Frankie<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:18:28 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Call for Traveller lists<BR>
<BR>
As part of the effort to keep the information at Freelance<BR>
Traveller current with respect to other Traveller resources, I<BR>
would appreciate it if people would send me information on any<BR>
Traveller-related mailing lists they know of.  I need the<BR>
following information:<BR>
<BR>
(1) The name of the list.  This is not necessarily the list<BR>
address without the domain; for example, this list is the<BR>
Traveller Mailing List, and is found at traveller@mpgn.com - but<BR>
the original Traveller Language Development List wasn't<BR>
travellerlanguagedevelopment@wherever, but travlang@wherever.<BR>
<BR>
(2) A brief description of the list's purpose.<BR>
<BR>
(3) An approximate daily traffic level.  If it's very sporadic<BR>
traffic (i.e., several days of silence, followed by a day of very<BR>
heavy posting, so indicate).<BR>
<BR>
(4) Subscription instructions.  These are not necessary for lists<BR>
housed at ONEList/eGroups (or, as I have been calling them until<BR>
they get the post-merge bugs fixed, ONEGroups); all lists at that<BR>
service use the same instructions, varying only by the list name,<BR>
and I know those instructions already (from owning a list there).<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:34:32 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: List ettiquite -- a reminder<BR>
<BR>
Rob Miracle wrote:<BR>
> Examples of off topic posts are discussions of modern day<BR>
> warfare, politics, religion, breaking news etc.  While we all want to talk<BR>
> about them, ** IT AINT TRAVELLER **<BR>
> and this is a Traveller list.<BR>
<BR>
A question of policy:<BR>
<BR>
Are science fiction jokes (outside of Traveller, for example Star Wars)<BR>
considered acceptable? I would say yes.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:23:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    <Quick cut to Penguin Boy sitting at a piano wearing only a smile &<BR>
his<BR>
>>utility belt.><BR>
>><BR>
>>    (Sorry, Doug, but there is now way I can play a piano, naked or<BR>
>>otherwise.)<BR>
><BR>
>Like I can?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Better you than me.  At least you have the body for it, I look more like<BR>
Jesse DeGraf with more hair.<BR>
<BR>
>"They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out my<BR>
>Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
> -- ad copy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Uh, Doug, where did you pull the GT Penguin Cannon from?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:28:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>> "They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out<BR>
my<BR>
>>> Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
>><BR>
>>Pulled out of where???<BR>
><BR>
>the piano of course.. where did you th. . .  You, sir, have a sick, sick<BR>
>imagination and a poor grasp of body cavities.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    That answered that question, but now how big was the piano?<BR>
<BR>
>>ObTrav:  I just love players that try and discreetly leave there ship and<BR>
>>proceed through the port facilities while carrying heavy ordinance.  Just<BR>
>>why do players think they can carry a full machine gun with grenade<BR>
launcher<BR>
>>and a ton of ammo and not notice?  I had one guy try to walk off a ship<BR>
with<BR>
>>an FGMP "hidden" under his jacket. *shrug*<BR>
><BR>
>I had a guy get on my van with a shotgun.  I didn't see it while I was<BR>
>loading his luggage, but when I turned around to see what airline he was<BR>
>on, he had this Remington on his knees!  Nearly ruined a good set of work<BR>
>pants, but he wasn't a thief, just very, very dim.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Ye gods, how stupid can you be to try & sneak a shotgun through<BR>
security.  I know I have carried a firearm through, but then it was part of<BR>
my job, I was airport security, & that job lasted about 6 monthes, before I<BR>
quit.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Stupid passenger tricks?  Ever *really* regret being the only guy<BR>
>on board with Steward-1?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    No, because I either play Marines, Army, Navy, or Scouts.  But, my wife<BR>
enjoys playing the steward, of course this does bring up certain actions<BR>
that happen after the game is over.<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
>gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:33:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch. <BR>
<BR>
From: Thing <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  I just love players that try and discreetly leave there ship and<BR>
>proceed through the port facilities while carrying heavy ordinance.  Just<BR>
>why do players think they can carry a full machine gun with grenade<BR>
launcher<BR>
>and a ton of ammo and not notice?  I had one guy try to walk off a ship<BR>
with<BR>
>an FGMP "hidden" under his jacket. *shrug*<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Because they are PCs, & in some games PCs can get away with anything<BR>
they want.  Myself, I may allow them to get away with a pistol & a bladed<BR>
weapon, but they have to be smart about it.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:58:01 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Sci-Fi Movie question<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Tommy Grav wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hi all<BR>
><BR>
>  I have thsi movie in my mind, that I can't recall the name of.<BR>
>If any of you could help but my mind to rest I would be eternally<BR>
>grateful.<BR>
><BR>
>The movie is about a post-acopalyptic world with some kind<BR>
>of city sanctuaries. Our hero is to transport a prisoner<BR>
>across the wasteland on board a bus. At the first<BR>
>gas-stop they find the workers there killed .<BR>
><BR>
>The movie is rather Mad Max like with a punk-gang on bikes<BR>
>as the bad guys. It must be 10 years since I saw this movie<BR>
>so it is not new.<BR>
>  <BR>
>Anyone have a clue?<BR>
<BR>
I'll answer my own mail here. The movies name is "Neon City"<BR>
and was made in 1992.<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:47:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
From: N.I.C.Bradbeer <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
>> "They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out<BR>
my<BR>
>> Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
><BR>
>I don't wanna know what you pulled it out of. I'm hoping you pulled it<BR>
>out of the piano, but it's probably better for my fragile little mind<BR>
>not to know.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Two things, Nick.<BR>
    1) Knowing Doug, I hope it is from the piano, & most likely it is.<BR>
    2) Knowing myself & my wife as well as knowing a bit about Doug, we<BR>
would love to party with Doug.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:25:13 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: costs of troops (was: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Milibots<BR>
><BR>
> "Katharine [Ian] Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote<BR>
> How much does it cost to train said soldiers? How much will you<BR>
> spend per year maintaining that training readiness.<BR>
<BR>
You dont. Their homeworld does, in order to access the hard currency<BR>
salaries.<BR>
<BR>
When you need a battallion, you call them ... I am arguing for something<BR>
like Switzerland ("Those free men from the hills, who provide the watchdogs<BR>
of tyrrany" - you just dont get rhetoric like that these days ...).<BR>
<BR>
> What are<BR>
> your medical costs of treating wounded soldiers and how do<BR>
> these compare to costs of repairing or replacing damaged<BR>
> robots? What are your other costs related to use of human<BR>
> soldiers (recruiting, fringe benefits, pensions, etc)? How<BR>
> many years will human soldiers stay in service so you can recoup<BR>
> said costs and how does this compare to the operational<BR>
> life span of a robot at the same TL? What are the political<BR>
> consequences to your government if they choose to use sophont<BR>
> troops?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Last questions first ... I think it's a social decision as to use humans in<BR>
war. The trend of the last hundred years has been to smaller forces in<BR>
combat, and I can see that continuing, so I suspect that you wont need that<BR>
many volunteers.<BR>
<BR>
The sort of soldiers I am proposing would be in service for a long time -<BR>
but not neccessarily with us. I am proposing that soldiers get 2 sorts of<BR>
pay - "peace" pay (average wage on your TL8 world) and "war" pay (excellent<BR>
wage on your TL10 employers world). This war bonus pay would be split<BR>
between the soldiers and their employer (possibly a person, possibly a<BR>
state, possibly a corporation).<BR>
<BR>
Pensions are an iffy one. I suspect that we defer them ... as part of the<BR>
contract, we agree to pay a pension of Cr 10 per months service with us per<BR>
month once the soldier turns 55. This will delay it to, probably, 25 years<BR>
after the war, so as the employing state I'm goanna bury it deep in the<BR>
'accumulated liabilites' section of the accounts and ignore it for 20, maybe<BR>
25 years ...<BR>
<BR>
Medical costs vs repairs ... I dunno. Thinking about it, lets take<BR>
Australia. Lots of hospitals, lot of doctors offices with small surgeries<BR>
attached. Lets assume grav ambulances that go at 1100 kph (not too difficult<BR>
to build at TL9 under FFS2). What is the impact of using the speed of grav<BR>
ambulances to use for military purposes the large civilian medical<BR>
establishment ? This lets us bury the military costs in the civilian health<BR>
budget. It would 'bring the war home' though, which could be regarded as a<BR>
Bad Thing (but not neccessarily by the Imperium, which whilst it recognises<BR>
war, it also recognises the waste and other consequences of prolonged wars).<BR>
<BR>
I'm doing a lot of reading about the Spanish army in Flanders in the 16th<BR>
and 17th centuries, and it's showing ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:55:31 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: FS Light APC and FS D gun<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam TL10 Light APC<BR>
<BR>
A FS implementation of a standard design, the FS light APC has a number of<BR>
variants. The base model is exteremely cheap at KCr 121 and has a very basic<BR>
electronics fitout. It is armoured with 1 cm of crystaliron (AF11) and is<BR>
capable of NOE flight at 75 kph.<BR>
<BR>
Almost self-maintaining, it carries 10 troops at 3 tons of gear in<BR>
reasonable comfort, and has a combat range of 350 kilometers.<BR>
<BR>
It displaces 4 dtons, and thus takes up 8 dtons of space on a RO/RO<BR>
transport ship.<BR>
<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
4 dton long box (unstreamlined) ; 7.2m x 3.8m x 1.9m<BR>
<BR>
1m3 crystaliron armour ; 1 m3, 10t, KCr 9<BR>
<BR>
400 kN TL10 antigrav ; 0.8m3, 0.8t, KCr 6.4 (0.56 MW power demand)<BR>
<BR>
1 MW Advanced IC turbine ; 1.3m3, 1.3t, KCr 13 (produces 1 MW)<BR>
<BR>
2000 liters HCD fuel ; 2m3, 1.8 t (costs Cr 500)<BR>
<BR>
10x Adequate seats ; 35m3, 1.7t, KCr 1 (assumes 10 150 kg troops)<BR>
<BR>
2x TL10 CM 0.8/CP 1.25 computers ; 0.18m3, 0.04t, KCr 10<BR>
<BR>
50 km Vehicle Passive Sensor ; 0.01 m3, 0.01t, KCr 20<BR>
<BR>
TL10 Terrain Following Avionics pack ; 0.16 m3, 0.05t, KCr 42<BR>
<BR>
500 km Laser Communicator ; 0.01m3, 0.02t, KCr 11<BR>
<BR>
500 km radio ; 0.01 m3, 0.01t, KCr 5<BR>
<BR>
2x Dynalink Crewstations ; 7m3, 0.4t, KCr 4<BR>
<BR>
3 t gear ; 3m3, 3t<BR>
<BR>
Mass 20t. 1 maintainence point (20/5, then divide by 4 for the 2 real<BR>
computers)<BR>
<BR>
Effective thrust is 48 kN for 20t, so it pulls 0.24 gees, which translates<BR>
into a flying speed of 79 km per hour.<BR>
<BR>
*****************************************************<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam D gun<BR>
<BR>
The Great Equaliser of the modern battlefield, the Famile Spofulam D gun<BR>
will allow just about any vehicle to turn into an eggshell with hammer. At a<BR>
kilometer of range, a D gun will punch through virtually any armour.<BR>
<BR>
At a mere two hundred and seventy five kilocredits for a four-shot 5 ton<BR>
unit, how can you not put one on everything ?<BR>
<BR>
********<BR>
<BR>
100 megajoule Fusion gun ; DV 400, short range 1000 meters<BR>
<BR>
Firing unit : 800 kg, KCr 48<BR>
Support hardware : 800 kg, KCr 48<BR>
<BR>
TL8 stabiliser : 100 kg, KCr 50<BR>
Ballistic computer : 40 kg, KCr 20<BR>
Advanced rangefinder : 80 kg, KCr 20<BR>
<BR>
4 round box magazine for 480 kg rounds : 3040 kg, KCr 30<BR>
4 480 kg EPG rounds ; 1920 kg, KCr 40<BR>
<BR>
When they said box magazines "are typically used in man-portable weapons",<BR>
they obviously werent thinking about Famile Spofulam ... I guess you would<BR>
use a crane to remove the 3 ton box magazine, and to add the five ton filled<BR>
magazine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: List ettiquite -- a reminder<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>A question of policy:<BR>
><BR>
>Are science fiction jokes (outside of Traveller, for example Star Wars)<BR>
>considered acceptable? I would say yes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Thank you Jens.  When I put up my SW jokes, I did label them OT, so that<BR>
everyone knew that it was Off-Topic.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:40:36 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: A new picture request<BR>
<BR>
It's time for another picture request, not unlike the last one I did for<BR>
Starports.  If you've got a picture or pictures of yourself and / or friends<BR>
in a Travelleresque costume that would be suitable for G:T's "Ground<BR>
Forces", send 'em to and I might be able to "sneak" 'em in the book<BR>
somewhere.  Most useful would be soldiers (the more NOT U.S. geared, the<BR>
better) vehicle maintenance techs, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also looking for original photographs of demolition rubble to use in<BR>
compositing photos & renders of armored forces into.  No scans please due to<BR>
copyright issues.<BR>
<BR>
Many thanks,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:51:01 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Marooned Alone Whole message is a SPOILER <BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 07-06-00 5:14:00 PM EST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< My question: is it possible to create a picture that can be seen with<BR>
 the naked eye, but cannot be copied?  <BR>
 <BR>
 This adventure seems to require that this picture be the only copy,>><BR>
<BR>
 and that there cannot be any more copies. >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:56:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> You may be surprised by the cost of high-tech rapid fire artillery. I built<BR>
> a TL10, maybe 11, biiig ugly mass driver artillery piece a while ago (I cant<BR>
> even remember what I called it, but it was pretty damn gross. Something like<BR>
> 200mm at 5 km per second, and a rate of fire of 8 shots in 20 seconds ...<BR>
> then an hour of recharging). Basically, mass drivers eat power like crazy.<BR>
<BR>
Worse, at that velocity it can barely do "indirect fire". Why? Because<BR>
it's so close to orbital velocity that accuracy goes all to hell and<BR>
the time between firing a round at a high angle and impact will be<BR>
measured in *minutes*.<BR>
<BR>
Heck on world below size 6 or so you just put the projectile into<BR>
*orbit* (one that intersects the ground :-). On even smaller worlds,<BR>
it's moving above escape velocity and will *never* come down.<BR>
<BR>
There's actually a limit to *useful* velocities for indirect fire<BR>
weapons. Set by the factors above. And no matter *what* you do,<BR>
increasing velocity increases flight time for any given range (at least<BR>
with high angle fire).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:20:17 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Ministry of Propaganda<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav:  Does the Imperium have a propaganda machine? Does the Imperial<BR>
> government take an active hand in manipulating the media.  Is there and<BR>
> 'Official Secrets Act', or is the press relatively free--free to criticize<BR>
> the government and publish almost anything?<BR>
<BR>
IMTU<BR>
<BR>
Propoganda?  Holy High Guard, yes Sir!<BR>
<BR>
The press has all the colors of the rainbow... pro-government,<BR>
propaganda from the right, left, spinward, antispinward, you<BR>
name it.  I assume megacorps own some major publishing houses,<BR>
as does Sylea and the Imperial government... I can just <BR>
see the chaos of content-free data overload and spindoctored<BR>
tabloided articles... whew!<BR>
<BR>
With some exceptions.  Probably pro-Zhodani propoganda is<BR>
suppressed with extreme prejudice in the Fontier Wars era.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose pro- and anti- Sword Worlds, Darrian, Fed of Arden,<BR>
Aslan, Vargr, Droyne, Ancients, Ine Givar, Octagon Society,<BR>
what-have-you are alive and well in the Spinward Marches.<BR>
But don't wave the flag for the Zhos man.  Maybe like supporting<BR>
the Neo Nazis or worse.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:35:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 8:39 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:33 PM 6/6/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >The US is a country made from the emmigrants of<BR>
EVREY other country in the<BR>
> >world. Hell, like Bill Murry said in Stripes "Our<BR>
ancestors were kicked out<BR>
> >of the best countries...".<BR>
><BR>
> "We're Americans!  Our ancestors were kicked out of<BR>
every civilized country<BR>
> on Earth!  We're mongrels, <feels recruit's nose><BR>
see? His nose is cold!"<BR>
<BR>
Of course for some Americans the migration was<BR>
involountary.<BR>
<BR>
Which leads me to the ObsTrav bit. I recently read the<BR>
JTAS item about<BR>
involountary colonisation practiced by the evil<BR>
Solomani Federation. Can someone<BR>
give me a quick precis to last me until 'Rim of Fire'<BR>
(no curry jokes please) is<BR>
released.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2571<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (rly-zc02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.2]) by air-zc05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:37:22 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:36:39 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA28480;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:35:55 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:35:45 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA28438<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:35:44 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:35:44 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006080035.UAA28438@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2571<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2572</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 7:43:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 7 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2572<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Vilani fonts<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Judges Guild are back baby<BR>
PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
Re: Fw: Famile Spofulam Elephant Mounted PAW<BR>
Re: Imperial Ministry of Propaganda<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Judges Guild are back baby<BR>
Re: Welcome to Real Life Traveller, Folks!<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
re" Imperial Ministry of Propaganda <BR>
Re:Low-tech designs<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Re: TRW Laser<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Re: lasers<BR>
Re: A new picture request<BR>
Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
re: costs of troops<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
RE: A new picture request<BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:51:46 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
I've got it available at my site.<BR>
<BR>
http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/resources/<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:36 AM<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: Vilani fonts<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Can anyone tell me where to get the Vilani font.  Is it available <BR>
> publicly?<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:44:14 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler wrote,<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
So I wasn't too off for a tossed in comment.<BR>
Cool.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:06:33 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Judges Guild are back baby<BR>
<BR>
Okay - I haven't been following the list lately due to RL complications<BR>
(3,000 word assignment) but I had a dream last night about surfing the web<BR>
and finding that Judges Guild had reformed and were in business via the<BR>
internet.<BR>
<BR>
Well it's true. They are at www.judgesguild.com and they have old Trav stuff<BR>
for sale.<BR>
<BR>
Apologies if this is already known.<BR>
<BR>
Back to the assignment (its due at 4pm and I have written 81 words).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:59:13 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
>  i) laser tanks will range to the horizon at TL 9+.<BR>
>  ii) PD can slaughter "high-tech copperheads" as fast as you can pump<BR>
> them out.<BR>
>  iii) artillery - especially that demanding close escort - is likely<BR>
> going to be far less important in the big wars of the OTU than a lot<BR>
> of us might prefer to believe; cost-benefit is going to be pretty<BR>
> low, although a more than merely residual capability is going to be<BR>
> useful just to keep the enemy honest, and to ensure that undefended<BR>
> foes (poorly equipped, low-TL, or fragments separated from units)<BR>
> can be neutralized at minimal cost.<BR>
<BR>
I have a few problems with "PD Dominance," most stemming from the fact<BR>
that I *like* artillery. However, I do have some rational/logical type<BR>
arguments against it as well:<BR>
<BR>
1) PD can only defend out to line of sight. If the LOS is hampered<BR>
enough (mountainous terrain, urban environment, etc.) then the range at<BR>
which the incoming can be acquired and tracked is severely limited. This<BR>
of course is dependant on the PD software and the availability of remote<BR>
sensors to get a "first look" at incoming rounds which would be<BR>
otherwise be untrackable.<BR>
<BR>
2) PD effectiveness will be limited severely by the ability of the<BR>
system to maneuver the firing elements to intercept multiple targets. If<BR>
the rounds are all coming from a relatively narrow area of the horizon,<BR>
this should not present a problem. However, a nasty thing to do is to<BR>
engage the target from multiple vectors, each widely seperated. In<BR>
addition, a "perfect barrage" would include both high-angle attacks from<BR>
relatively close in and flatter trajectory rounds from farther out. The<BR>
PD systems would have to make several costly choices, each of which<BR>
takes enough time to make a difference.<BR>
<BR>
3) Use warheads that contain single shot plasma or fusion weapons, or<BR>
even CLC type lasers. This is basically a battlefield version of the<BR>
classic fission-pumped x-ray lasers of space combat fame. This forces<BR>
the PD system to intercept the shells very early on, as a sufficiently<BR>
advanced warhead can acquire a target and fire fairly soon after LOS is<BR>
acquired, especially if the target's location is well known. If a PD<BR>
system could be tricked into revealing itself through a barrage of solid<BR>
metal rounds, this data could be fed into the second wave's systems. A<BR>
second battery opens up, drawing the PD fire, then the first cuts loose<BR>
with the PD killer rounds. The PD system would have to give up on the<BR>
decoy volley (not likely, esp. since the warheads couldn't be known<BR>
until after they were hit) to intercept the new volley, and the narrow<BR>
intercept window makes it unlikely that it could catch the first few<BR>
rounds. Hopefully, that's all it would take to render the PD<BR>
inoperative.<BR>
<BR>
4) Use NOE terrain following munitions such as grav missles with SeFoP<BR>
warheads (or some other direct-fire warhead, as described above) to get<BR>
in close with the PD system, reducing the intercept window. LOS is great<BR>
except when you have no LOS until it's too late. This works great with<BR>
decoy volleys like in (3) above.<BR>
<BR>
5) For those nasty "High Guard" PD tanks: use light vehicles with<BR>
relatively heavy, low ROF lasers whose emitter is boom-mounted. These<BR>
can use terrain masking, extend the boom, fire their Big Gun and then<BR>
retract it, all while using natural cover and concealment. Combined with<BR>
some good ECM, this should encourage those PD tanks to reduce their<BR>
altitude considerably, which defeats their purpose admirably. The<BR>
vehicle doesn't even have to be grav in nature, and using an EPG with an<BR>
accumulator could decrease it's signature greatly. <BR>
<BR>
6) Anti-Grav Tank mines: Most vehicles neglect underside PD guns. After<BR>
all, who expects to be shot from underneath by a weapon that PD can<BR>
guard against? So, use pop-up type mines, preferable SeFoP for the good<BR>
ol' range benefit, with grav sensors. They detect a target, wait for it<BR>
to come into range and close enough under it to avoid it's PD, pop up,<BR>
and fire. Autonomous laser/plasma/fusion weapons could use this same<BR>
concept, especially since EPGs (PPCs, FPCs, and CLCs) have almost no EM<BR>
emissions until the moment of combustion. At which point it's too late<BR>
anyway. And, the sensors could be passive. Should the tanks be at too<BR>
high an altitude for the mines to engage, encourage them to use terrain<BR>
masking via (5) above. <BR>
<BR>
Essentially the PD vs. Arty war is won via mind games more than anything<BR>
else. Sufficient numbers of high-grade PD units in an area will be able<BR>
to render arty ineffective, regardless of the ammount of incoming<BR>
rounds. Some rounds will always get through, but not enough to make it<BR>
worthwhile. The trick is to isolate the dedicated PD units, hit 'em with<BR>
decoy volleys to fix their pos, then saturate it with a brief,<BR>
concentrated volley from multiple vectors and multiple trajectories<BR>
aimed at disabling the PD unit itself. Then that area is wide open to<BR>
arty engagement. I personnally think that it is suicide for anything to<BR>
be operating at altitudes much more than a few hundred feet given the<BR>
ease with which it is possible to hide high-energy LOS light speed<BR>
weapons with extremely low before-fire energy signatures. <BR>
<BR>
For me, I envision PD operating at a number of levels. First, small PD<BR>
units installed in grav tanks and the like to protect against missiles<BR>
and grenades. I would see about 3 of these per unit, to avoid multiple<BR>
angle saturation. They would be in small turrets on the front left,<BR>
front right and rear of the hull. For kinetic penetrators, I don't think<BR>
that PD guns would have to be very powerful to generate a miss (all you<BR>
need to do is deform the round sufficiently, and I think that the energy<BR>
transfer alone might do it), especially if the PD can engage at long<BR>
ranges. If it is plasma/fusion based, even better, since the energy<BR>
trasnfer is very energetic and explosive in it's own right. <BR>
<BR>
Theater scale and base defense type units would probably have a<BR>
different role. They would probably be relatively light and inexpensive<BR>
units, so that several could be fielded for mutual support. Their job<BR>
would be to take out artillery rounds and other high-angle weapons.<BR>
Smaller units would be fielded in a second ring, hopefully with an<BR>
extended horizon for earlier interception, to knock down NOE missiles<BR>
and flatter trajectory rounds. The inner set of weapons should have a<BR>
relatively short horizon, to avoid dircet fire weapons and flat<BR>
trajectory rounds. Initial target acquisition and firing solution would<BR>
come from remote sensors or the outter ring of PD batteries.<BR>
<BR>
Last there would be small units like those on the grav tanks mounted on<BR>
skimmers that would accompany infantry units. These would be there to<BR>
intercept mortar and arty rounds that weren't able to be engaged by<BR>
other PD systems. I doubt that they would be sufficient to stop even a<BR>
majority of the incoming rounds, but it sure would feel a lot better to<BR>
have SOMETHING at least.<BR>
<BR>
As always, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:01:53 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fw: Famile Spofulam Elephant Mounted PAW<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> The list has had too much crap on it recently.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm reposting a bunch of old Famile Spofulam stuff.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
Delicious, as always. Is all the FS stuff collected somewhere, other<BR>
than on the BITS site? I'd love to see the entirety of the products of<BR>
their... genius.<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves, CEO Risen Light Industries.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:10:57 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Ministry of Propaganda<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>ObTrav:  Does the Imperium have a propaganda machine? Does the Imperial<BR>
government take an active hand in manipulating the media.  Is there and<BR>
'Official Secrets Act', or is the press relatively free--free to criticize<BR>
the government and publish almost anything?<<BR>
<BR>
Given the wording of a bunch of the early TAS announcements in CT (1105-5FW)<BR>
I'd say the Imperium has a strong and active propaganda department.<BR>
Also based on those a lot of leeway in criticism is possible, but it may<BR>
prove dangerous. Depending on circumstances, criticizing a Megacorporation<BR>
may be more dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:03:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> Luckily, even the crude NERVA system Project Pluto built back in the<BR>
>> 60s had twice the Isp of the best chemical rockets. And since mass<BR>
>> ratio is related to Isp by an *exponential* relationship, that means a<BR>
>> *huge* reduction.<BR>
><BR>
> I thought about "Project Pluto" when I started trying to design this<BR>
> peculiar vehicle, but I set the "atomic ramjet" idea aside for a couple of<BR>
> reasons: (1) according to the "Scientific American" article I read a<BR>
> several years ago, the "Project Pluto" engine was *incredibly* dirty, and<BR>
<BR>
Ok, looks like I got my project names screwed up...<BR>
<BR>
Ok, looks like the program was called Project Rover. <BR>
<BR>
> (2) there are no rules in the "T4 Edition" of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel"<BR>
> for atomic ramjets.  <sigh> Granted, "Project Pluto" dated back to the<BR>
> 1950s, which would translate to the borderline between Tech Levels 6 and<BR>
> 7, so I guess that "clean" atomic ramjets should be possible by at Tech<BR>
> Level 9, but the lack of rules for them remains a barrier, at least to me<BR>
> (my grasp of physics and engineering isn't strong enough to enable me to<BR>
> "wing it" with confidence).<BR>
<BR>
Well, as I noted, you'd likely be better off with a NERVA anyway.<BR>
Hybrid systems tend to waste a lot of space and mass on stuff that only<BR>
gets used part of the time.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I note that the Kiwi-B test engine reached a power level of 1.1<BR>
*gigawatts* and would have produced 55,000 pounds of thrust in space.<BR>
(at around 30,000 pound weight for the engine, that's a not<BR>
insignificant acceleration, though obvious fuel and payload cut into<BR>
that) <BR>
<BR>
Ah! The final design was rated at 200,000 pounds of thrust, which is a<BR>
power output of more than 5 gigawatts. And this was done in 1966!<BR>
<BR>
I find a figure of 33 feet for the diameter of the flight configuration<BR>
of the engine (chosen so it could be used as an upper stage on a Saturn<BR>
V). I can't find a length figure.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:24:49 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
Ves wrote,<BR>
>I have a few problems with "PD Dominance," most stemming from the fact<BR>
that I *like* artillery. However, I do have some rational/logical type<BR>
arguments against it as well:<<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
This sounds like basic SAM suppression theory extended to artillery once it<BR>
becomes possible to intercept artillery rounds like aircraft. (PD<BR>
basically.)<BR>
 Is that incidental or intentional?<BR>
(This is not a criticism, I just want to be sure I understand your line of<BR>
thought. It looks like a logical extension of the concepts.)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:37:19 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
"N.I.C.Bradbeer" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> > > ISTR That the Mosquito carried as big a bomb load as the B17 Flying Fortress?<BR>
> > Not even close.<BR>
> > Mossie:  2,000lbs. (4 x 500lb)  (A lot of US fighters could carry that much)<BR>
><BR>
> I'm sure I remember cases of the Mosquito carrying a single 4,000 lbs<BR>
> 'Cookie' bomb. And I was under the impression the 'Highball' bouncing<BR>
> bomb variant weighed over 2,000 lbs too.<BR>
><BR>
> May be wrong.<BR>
<BR>
The numbers I have were for standard loadouts, which often<BR>
included maximum fuel.  By modifying a plane, such as occassionally<BR>
happened with the B17, the Lancaster when carrying the Grandslam,<BR>
the Dambuster bombs, etc., you can exceed those standard loads.<BR>
But that usually involved taking out all the guns, all the ammo,<BR>
lots of armor, no paint, etc., etc.  You get a big, slow, floating<BR>
duck.  Dead if an enemy fighter gets close.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:31:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Judges Guild are back baby<BR>
<BR>
>On 6/8/2000 at 11:06 PM Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>Well it's true. They are at www.judgesguild.com and they have old Trav stuff<BR>
>for sale.<BR>
<BR>
Judges Guild is quite alive! (I know, the site hasn't been updated in about a year, but it is alive, I spoke to Bob yesterday). Currently Bob Bledsaw, the Invincible Overlord himself, is using the sales of the older material to help finance the development and production new material, so if you want to see JG back in force, be sure to stop by http://www.judgesguild.com and order some of the old classics! There already has been a reprint of City State of the Invincible Overlord ($10.00), Pegasus Magazine #14 is out, and other material is coming down the pike, including *some* of the old Traveller stuff, and an electronic version of City State for use with our own GRIP Online Role-playing System. That I can say for certain *wink*.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:44:59 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Welcome to Real Life Traveller, Folks!<BR>
<BR>
Moin Tod Glenn,<BR>
<BR>
> Check out TRW's web page for more detailed info and photos.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.trw.com/thel/> <BR>
<BR>
  the photos are nice, but information on this page is low. The page<BR>
  tell's that they are using a "deuterium fluoride chemical laser"<BR>
  but they dont say anything about kilojoules, rate of fire and the<BR>
  diameter of the focal array.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:46:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
>That makes it Cr 13,000 for equipment. It will be a bit more if we expect<BR>
>>him to fight in space or on a vacuum world. And we still haven't paid to<BR>
>>train the poor sap. Or fed him. Or got him a place to live when he's not<BR>
in<BR>
>>the field.<BR>
><BR>
>  And a Zho-bot (a pretty minimal unit, BTW) by 3I standards would run over<BR>
>KCr 200, and that only for an Int of 6. And that Imp-bot still needs techs,<BR>
>who need clothes, and training, and guards, etc.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
My point was that given the relatively frozen tech level of Traveller how<BR>
long is the service lifetime of a milibot? Is a milibot expected to have the<BR>
service life of a WWII era aircraft or a late 20th century aircraft (like an<BR>
A-6 or an F-14)? The first probably had a service life of a few months to a<BR>
few years. The latter are expected to last 20 years or so (with constant<BR>
upgrades.)<BR>
<BR>
If a milbots normal service life is equivalent to a soldier's career (~20<BR>
years) then KCr 200 is a good deal. If the soldier or the milibot is only<BR>
expected to last to the middle of the first battle then it is obviously not<BR>
a good deal.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:50:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re" Imperial Ministry of Propaganda <BR>
<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  Does the Imperium have a propaganda machine? Does<BR>
<BR>
>the Imperial government take an active hand in<BR>
>manipulating the media.  <BR>
>Is there an 'Official Secrets Act', or is the press <BR>
>relatively free--free to criticize the government and<BR>
>publish almost anything<BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller universe, in Milieu 1100:<BR>
The Imperium has a propaganda machine, which is cranked up<BR>
or down as need is perceived.  Propaganda tends to be<BR>
fairly subtle and is usually "white" propaganda, that is,<BR>
clearly marked as official governmental pronouncements.  <BR>
<BR>
There is an Official Secrets Edict.  If something has been<BR>
classified as secret, any dissemination of that information<BR>
is an Imperial High Justice crime.<BR>
<BR>
On the one hand, the press is relatively free to criticize<BR>
government policy and expose corruption.  On the other,<BR>
lese majeste is an Imperial High Justice crime, so there is<BR>
some tension between freedom to report facts and risks of<BR>
improperly insulting the reputation of nobles.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:58:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re:Low-tech designs<BR>
<BR>
>Have you posted the FFS1 design anywhere? I have a state in my TNE variant<BR>
>which is predominately at TL9.<BR>
<BR>
I posted it to the list recently enough that I don't think I will again;<BR>
anyone<BR>
interested can email me directly.<BR>
<BR>
These are non-contragrav designs (IMTU, the Terrans didn't have<BR>
contragrav until they copied it from the Vilani.) I did have some comments<BR>
on TL9 with contragrav variants (in TNE, where contragrav negates gravity but<BR>
provides no thrust, it's still surprisingly complicated to get into orbit,<BR>
and parking orbits at TL9 will be very weird elliptical things...)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:52:17 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
> So some of the Grav tanks form a 'high guard' and extend the range of<BR>
> their lasers considerably, as well as acting as spotters outside <BR>
> conventional weapon range. Aslso, they can move in pretty fast, that <BR>
> FEBA is a lot further than you think. <BR>
<BR>
No kidding. Grav tanks can move continental distances in time frames<BR>
that would move conventional armor a couple hundred kilometers.<BR>
<BR>
Matthew again:<BR>
> The lasers from the 'high guard' tanks can hit you in milliseconds, <BR>
> even from a thousand klicks away. <BR>
<BR>
I think a 1000km range is a generous figure for any direct fire weapon<BR>
in atmosphere.  If you're doing such high guard, I think you'll see<BR>
and be seen outside of weapon engagement range...well, be seen anyway.<BR>
This may give initiative to the enemy (he sees you first), but<BR>
you'll be able to intercept low-trajectory weapons at a farther <BR>
distance from your main body.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:03:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TRW Laser<BR>
<BR>
>Interesting photos of the laser device itself.  It looks like a variation of<BR>
>the chemical laser the DoD had mounted in a Boeing 747<BR>
<BR>
It's actually a somewhat different technology - a hydrogen-flouride laser<BR>
rather than a oxygen-iodine, for reasons that are unclear. And it has much<BR>
less beam control => much shorter range and some weird deployment<BR>
rules.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: this is one thing FFS1/2 still got wrong - they have DEI lasers<BR>
at lower TL than chemical.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:02:29 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
<BR>
>  That was my point - many Zho's would be horrified if the<BR>
<BR>
>3I _did_ fold up and go home with their toys. OTOH, some<BR>
>Expansionists would take it as a sign that they should<BR>
>push harder, although being Zho's they'd probably<BR>
>spend a century or more consolidating - and learning that <BR>
>the Vargr were now _their_ problem :><BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani Consulate shares an extensive border with the<BR>
Vargr Extents to coreward of the Spinward Marches.  I think<BR>
that the Vargr must already be a problem, and no doubt the<BR>
subject of constant low-level warfare.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:08:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: lasers<BR>
<BR>
>What flavor of laser is likely to find it's way into military service for<BR>
>weapons use?  Canon laser weapons are usually described as requiring a power<BR>
>feed, so are the using gas? I can remember building a CO2 laser<BR>
<BR>
In the near-term, chemical lasers are much more likely to be in military<BR>
use (which are covered in FFS1/FFS2, though I think at too high a TL);<BR>
the TRW system recently mentioned, the bigger COIL laser that will go into<BR>
the YAL-1 747 mod for ABM work.<BR>
<BR>
Note that a CO2 laser isn't a "chemical" laser. Chemical vs direct energy<BR>
refers to how you get the excited gas needed to lase - either by burning<BR>
chemicals whose products end up in an excited state, or by using electricity<BR>
to produce light that produces the excited state in some other gas or solid,<BR>
like CO2. Chemical lasers have an efficiency advantage - you don't need a<BR>
big powerplant as such, and you only use fuel when you're shooting. They<BR>
have the disadvantage that most such chemicals are incredibly toxic and/or<BR>
explosive and/or icky.<BR>
<BR>
Direct energy lasers have the disadvantage that you need a big power plant<BR>
to produce the energy, even if you use batteries to smooth the demand cycle.<BR>
Ultimately they have the potential to be more compact, though.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:59:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A new picture request<BR>
<BR>
At 04:40 PM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>It's time for another picture request, not unlike the last one I did for<BR>
>Starports.  If you've got a picture or pictures of yourself and / or friends<BR>
>in a Travelleresque costume that would be suitable for G:T's "Ground<BR>
>Forces", send 'em to and I might be able to "sneak" 'em in the book<BR>
>somewhere.  Most useful would be soldiers (the more NOT U.S. geared, the<BR>
>better) vehicle maintenance techs, etc.<BR>
<BR>
harrumph, cough cough bayconpictures hmph.. meinthearmyuniform..<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:02:25 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>Hologram, maybe?.  <BR>
<BR>
Can you take a photograph of a hologram?  Or is copying one more<BR>
complex than that?<BR>
<BR>
I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a <BR>
camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:12:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
I should also note (for those trying this at home) that FFS1 had some big,<BR>
big errors about how much delta-V and accel was required to attain orbit.<BR>
Corrections available on a variety of web sites...or, to first, order,<BR>
just assume ~8-9 km/s, and ignore the nonsense in the rules about<BR>
needing to use 1 G of "extra" thrust to cancel gravity all the way to orbit;<BR>
instead, airbreathers/airframes need 8 km/s, vertical rockets need 9 km/s,<BR>
or 10km/s if their thrust is <2 G.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:05:53 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: costs of troops<BR>
<BR>
For comparison with Milbots, I think that the cost of hiring,<BR>
equipping, and supporting a trained sophont soldier shouldn't<BR>
be compared only to the purchase price of a warbot - the warbot<BR>
costs need to include spare parts, the salaries and support of<BR>
the technicians who work on them, etc.  How much does a trained<BR>
field cybernetics technician cost, especially one trained and<BR>
willing to work in a combat zone?<BR>
<BR>
I think we could work out how many technicians were needed for<BR>
how many robots, using the maintenance point guidelines from<BR>
Striker.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:14:13<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:52 PM 6/7/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>No kidding. Grav tanks can move continental distances in time frames<BR>
>that would move conventional armor a couple hundred kilometers.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not to sure.. given the environment of brilliant missiles and instant<BR>
death, advancing too rapidly would be an initation to diaster.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:23:18 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: A new picture request<BR>
<BR>
Those particular pictures might be useful if I put a squad of computer<BR>
generated commandos in CA or BD, getting ready to execute an Army<BR>
officer....<BR>
<BR>
>:D<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 12:00 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: A new picture request<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 04:40 PM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >It's time for another picture request, not unlike the last one I did for<BR>
> >Starports.  If you've got a picture or pictures of yourself and<BR>
> / or friends<BR>
> >in a Travelleresque costume that would be suitable for G:T's "Ground<BR>
> >Forces", send 'em to and I might be able to "sneak" 'em in the book<BR>
> >somewhere.  Most useful would be soldiers (the more NOT U.S. geared, the<BR>
> >better) vehicle maintenance techs, etc.<BR>
><BR>
> harrumph, cough cough bayconpictures hmph.. meinthearmyuniform..<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:22:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:20 AM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>On Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:52 AM<BR>
>>Douglas E. Berry said,<BR>
>><BR>
>>> "They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out my<BR>
>>> Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
>><BR>
>>Pulled out of where???<BR>
><BR>
> the piano of course.. where did you th. . .  You, sir, have a sick, sick<BR>
> imagination and a poor grasp of body cavities.<BR>
<BR>
And here I thought it was just hidden the same place that Duncan<BR>
McCleod (pronounced "muh-cloud") hides that damned sword of his! :-)<BR>
<BR>
Over on the CAoL list we call that "Katana Space", and it's been<BR>
theorized that bags of holding and the like use the same space.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2572<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (rly-zc02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.2]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:43:13 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:42:38 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA34224;<BR>
	Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:41:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:41:05 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA34184<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:41:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:41:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006080241.WAA34184@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2572<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2573</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/7/00 10:41:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2573<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Re: Striker<BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: Striker Questions<BR>
Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
Re: IN humour<BR>
Re: IN humour<BR>
Re: TRW Laser<BR>
Toasts in the Mess (was: Re: IN humour)<BR>
RE: TRW Laser<BR>
Re: [OT] Sci-Fi Movie question<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
Re: NERVA.<BR>
Re: TRW laser<BR>
Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Re: Striker<BR>
RE: Striker<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:43:37 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 09:52 PM 6/7/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >No kidding. Grav tanks can move continental distances in time frames<BR>
> >that would move conventional armor a couple hundred kilometers.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not to sure.. given the environment of brilliant missiles and instant<BR>
> death, advancing too rapidly would be an initation to diaster.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.  The armor commander in such a case would run the same risk<BR>
that the Wehrmacht's Panzer forces ran in France in 1940: outrunning the<BR>
supporting infantry, and being cut off and destroyed by an armor<BR>
counterattack aimed at the gap.  De Gaulle actually launched two such<BR>
attacks, which failed due to lack of infantry and artillery support; the<BR>
British Royal Tank Regiment launched a similar stroke against Rommel's<BR>
7th Panzer Division, which was only halted by the ad-hoc employment of<BR>
88mm anti-aircraft guns in the anti-tank role.  (See John Keegan's _The<BR>
Second World War_, chapter 21 [Tank Battle: Falaise] for details.)<BR>
<BR>
Without infantry to suppress enemy anti-armor teams left behind in<BR>
overrun territory, even grav tanks can fall prey to intelligent use of<BR>
combined-arms tactics.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 12:59:36 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > ...<BR>
> > >Obviously, It's been a while since I looked at Striker.  In fact my set<BR>
> > >looks brand new, having not been touched in 10 years or more.<BR>
> > You have me<BR>
> > >thinking about how to stop those darn grav tanks (short of using<BR>
> > Ortillery).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   Don't forget that the Classic Reprints are going to include a book of<BR>
> > the wargames - including Striker!<BR>
> ><BR>
> How do Striker generated vehicle compare to FFS2?  I'm working on an<BR>
> application to generate and evaluate weapon systems, and need to select a<BR>
> system.  Suggestions?<BR>
><BR>
> My area of expertise is really small arms.  I have designed many a gun using<BR>
> the CT rules and my own expertise with small arms.  I recently acquired<BR>
> FFS2, and am doing a study to see how weapons created in that system map<BR>
> against actual and proposed weapon systems.<BR>
><BR>
> When the MetalStorm post came up, someone suggested a small arm based on the<BR>
> concept.  I started to work on this until I realized 'this thing is going to<BR>
> have a hell of a recoil'.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I remember seeing a current affairs pgm on this in Aust...there was a 4 barrel<BR>
pistol the inventor had built, only 3 or 4 shots in each barrel but on full auto<BR>
it could unload the whole lot before the recoil registered on the firing<BR>
hand...they were also some small calibre 5 or 6 mm.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:27:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:42 AM<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry said,<BR>
><BR>
>> the piano of course.. where did you th. . .  You, sir, have a sick, sick<BR>
>> imagination and a poor grasp of body cavities.<BR>
><BR>
> On the first point, thank you.<BR>
> And on the second:<BR>
> I must confess that due to a lack of knowledge of the exact specifications<BR>
> for this weapon, I was unaware of the dimensions, and I naturally assumed<BR>
> that you had studied some ninja art allowing for the possibility. ;)<BR>
<BR>
Hey, if it's no thicker or longer than a forearm, it *can* be done. But I<BR>
ain't volunteering to *do* it... (and it ain't a *ninja* art! :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:35:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 2)It seems that atmosphere-capable PAWs (NPAW?) were left out, and<BR>
> the interaction of naval PAWs with the battlefield was glossed over.<BR>
> Book 2, page 42. 'Particle accelerators are devastating against<BR>
> planets with atmosphere types of trace or vacuum, but completely<BR>
> ineffective against other atmosphere types. If one side has a<BR>
> particle accelerator in orbit over a trace of vacuum atmosphere<BR>
> world, the other side should surrender.' Has anyone explored this<BR>
> more - specifically, are there design sequences and statistics for<BR>
> creation and use of these weapons?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but while an NPAW *can* be used in atmosphere, it *can't* be<BR>
used from orbit against a target on the ground with any sort of real<BR>
atmosphere. *NONE* of the beam will make it thru 20+ miles of<BR>
atmosphere. (And that's assuming you fire straight down. Firing at any<BR>
sort of angle is even *worse*.<BR>
<BR>
And making a bigger stronger beam won't help. You wind up with<BR>
something that fries an indiscriminate area from the enegy radiated<BR>
from the plasma cloud the beam has created. (at that only happens at<BR>
power levels so insane you might as well try building a Death Star).<BR>
<BR>
ps. please set your mailer to *not* send HTML to the list.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:42:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Can we please get a post ban on Samwise?<BR>
>> --<BR>
>><BR>
>> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> Doug, just grant him non-existence if he's bothering you.  That's what a<BR>
> kill file is for.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, my software only allows kill files in *news*, not mail.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:52:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: IN humour<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:20 AM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>>>ObTrav: The Imperial Army is stuck in numerous quagmires on internal<BR>
>>>security missions and the like.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  And those things wouldn't happen if the tasking (& budget) were assigned<BR>
>>to the Navy and left to blockading! Numerous studies have proven that<BR>
>>economic sanctions enforced by numerous addtional promotion slots are<BR>
>>always effective - and if you don't like the studies we have, we'll just<BR>
>>write some more. [files, Navy Information Office]<BR>
><BR>
> Feh.  Nothing brings in the promotion points like *lots* of shiny campaign<BR>
> medals.. sure it's an internal security mission, but if we say it's<BR>
> counter-insurgency, whammo! medals and promotions all around!<BR>
><BR>
> Plus, vacc-boy, we're down here on the ground with all the lovely locals.<BR>
> Have fun with the plumbing hook-ups!<BR>
><BR>
>> {INI tag: we've just _got_ to do something about the 3-drink minimum<BR>
>>in the current Sector Navy Staff}<BR>
><BR>
> Vacuum-suckers can't hold their booze!  The Regimental Mess has a<BR>
> five-drink minimum! (Toasts to the Emperor, the Empress, the Marquis, the<BR>
> Colonel and his wife, the Regimental banner, and fallen comrades.)  Then we<BR>
> get to serious drinking!<BR>
<BR>
Pardon me, Major Berry, but that's *six* drinks. Seven if the Colonel<BR>
and his wife get seperate toasts.<BR>
<BR>
Meanwhile, a toast!<BR>
<BR>
He either fears his fate too much<BR>
Or his desserts are too small<BR>
Who fears to put it to the touch<BR>
To win or lose it all!<BR>
<BR>
(Montrose's toast)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:04:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: IN humour<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> {INI tag: we've just _got_ to do something about the 3-drink minimum<BR>
>>>in the current Sector Navy Staff}<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Vacuum-suckers can't hold their booze!  The Regimental Mess has a<BR>
>> five-drink minimum! (Toasts to the Emperor, the Empress, the Marquis, the<BR>
>> Colonel and his wife, the Regimental banner, and fallen comrades.)  Then we<BR>
>> get to serious drinking!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Major Douglas E. Berry.<BR>
>> HHC, 3rd Bn (Lift), 78th Efati Rifles (The Wolfhounds)<BR>
>> 37th Tank Division (Grav), Unified Army of Regina<BR>
><BR>
> Feh! Typical mil-spec grunts the both of ye! Drink minimums are for<BR>
> those with no adventure left in their souls. <BR>
><BR>
> Come aboard the "Flat Armadillo". Jerry's been whipping up a nice ol'<BR>
> batch of Brew, we'll see who has what minimum...last one over the table<BR>
> wins!<BR>
<BR>
Fine, here's a barrel of 307 Ale. Pay no attention to that hazard<BR>
diamond... :-)<BR>
<BR>
307 Ale is named after it's proof rating. And yes, I know that makes<BR>
it 153.5% alcohol. Don't blame me, blame the "conditions" under which<BR>
it is brewed (the Traveller equivalent would be having the brewing and<BR>
distillation setup extending way too close to the jump bubble if not<BR>
*thru* it). <BR>
<BR>
Blame filker Tom Smith. He wrote the song!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: You accept a contract to deliver a shipload of alcoholic<BR>
beverage to a world one jump away. You even remembered to check that<BR>
alcohol was legal at both ends, exportable from here, and importable at<BR>
the destination.<BR>
<BR>
It's only when the cargo is left on the loading platform by the ship<BR>
that you realize what sort of trouble you are in for...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:13:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TRW Laser<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I see it's a chemical laser (deuterium fluoride).  There's a nice combo to<BR>
> have sharing your laser tank with your crew.  Does Striker or FFS2 make<BR>
> mention of chemical lasers? If battlefield lasers using chemical reactions<BR>
> are required to get the required power, that's going to change things for<BR>
> laser tanks (or man portable lasers).<BR>
<BR>
The heck with "sharing the tank". Do you have *any* idea what the<BR>
superheated DF gas *exhaust* from that laser is gonna do to the<BR>
neighborhood? <BR>
<BR>
> What flavor of laser is likely to find it's way into military service for<BR>
> weapons use?  Canon laser weapons are usually described as requiring a power<BR>
> feed, so are the using gas? I can remember building a CO2 laser back in my<BR>
> high school days, but really haven't kept up with the technology, although I<BR>
> seem to recall that x-ray lasers hadn't lived up to their theoretical<BR>
> promise.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe a FEL? (Free Electron Laser). They generate the beam by using<BR>
magnetic fields to "wiggle" electrons in a manner that causes them to<BR>
emit radiation at the desire frequency.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:37:28 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Toasts in the Mess (was: Re: IN humour)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Vacuum-suckers can't hold their booze!  The Regimental Mess has a<BR>
> > five-drink minimum! (Toasts to the Emperor, the Empress, the Marquis, the<BR>
> > Colonel and his wife, the Regimental banner, and fallen comrades.)  Then we<BR>
> > get to serious drinking!<BR>
> <BR>
> Pardon me, Major Berry, but that's *six* drinks. Seven if the Colonel<BR>
> and his wife get seperate toasts.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, one doesn't actually _drink_ to the toast to fallen comrades, so<BR>
it is indeed five drinks.<BR>
<BR>
Although this doesn't _begin_ to include visits to the grog bowl.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(At dinings-in with my National Guard unit, I have proposed that, as<BR>
paratroopers and Marines both cultivate the "first-in" mentality, all<BR>
members of the mess who have served in either airborne or Marine units<BR>
should report to the grog bowl, to set an example for the rest of the<BR>
mess.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Meanwhile, a toast!<BR>
> <BR>
> He either fears his fate too much<BR>
> Or his desserts are too small<BR>
> Who fears to put it to the touch<BR>
> To win or lose it all!<BR>
> <BR>
> (Montrose's toast)<BR>
<BR>
Hear, hear!  \~/<BR>
<BR>
Staff Sergeant John Groth<BR>
311th Rapid Interface ("Blacklegs")<BR>
Posthumous recipient of the SEH (see GT: Ground Forces for details)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:46:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TRW Laser<BR>
<BR>
I see it's a chemical laser (deuterium fluoride).  There's a nice combo to<BR>
>have sharing your laser tank with your crew.  Does Striker or FFS2 make<BR>
>mention of chemical lasers? If battlefield lasers using chemical reactions<BR>
>are required to get the required power, that's going to change things for<BR>
>laser tanks (or man portable lasers).<BR>
><BR>
>What flavor of laser is likely to find it's way into military service for<BR>
>weapons use?  Canon laser weapons are usually described as requiring a<BR>
power<BR>
>feed, so are the using gas? I can remember building a CO2 laser back in my<BR>
>high school days, but really haven't kept up with the technology, although<BR>
I<BR>
>seem to recall that x-ray lasers hadn't lived up to their theoretical<BR>
>promise.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I expect that weapon grade lasers will be plasma wave free electron lasers.<BR>
You use a plasma wave electron accelerator to speed up electrons to<BR>
relativistic speeds and then bend the beam to cause synchrotron light. If<BR>
you do it properly you get a laser, which is frequency tunable. This is<BR>
pretty much still theory. Plasma wave accelerators are still in the planning<BR>
stage. There are a few free electron lasers around, heck we have one at Jlab<BR>
where I work, but they're still in the experimental phase too.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:17:12 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Sci-Fi Movie question<BR>
<BR>
At 10:39 PM 6/7/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hi all<BR>
><BR>
>   I have thsi movie in my mind, that I can't recall the name of.<BR>
>If any of you could help but my mind to rest I would be eternally<BR>
>grateful.<BR>
><BR>
>The movie is about a post-acopalyptic world with some kind<BR>
>of city sanctuaries. Our hero is to transport a prisoner<BR>
>across the wasteland on board a bus. At the first<BR>
>gas-stop they find the workers there killed .<BR>
><BR>
>The movie is rather Mad Max like with a punk-gang on bikes<BR>
>as the bad guys. It must be 10 years since I saw this movie<BR>
>so it is not new.<BR>
><BR>
>Anyone have a clue?<BR>
><BR>
>Tommy Grav<BR>
<BR>
Is it the movie with Michael Ironsides as the hero? I don't remember the <BR>
name either, but a search on his name at www.imdb.com will tell you what it is.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:28:20 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
At 11:09 PM 6/7/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Bruce Macintosh wrote:<BR>
> > My FFS1 design is a VTVL aircraft with AZHRAE (hybrid<BR>
> > airbreathing/rocket engines) - these are very nice in FFS1.<BR>
> > One version is even field-refuellable (hydrogen-burning rather than<BR>
> > HCD-burning.) The VTVL one could probably be rough-field<BR>
> > capable.<BR>
><BR>
>Oooh! Could you post the design? Does it carry much payload?<BR>
><BR>
>I'm having incredible problems with a TL-9 trans-atmospheric capable<BR>
>fighter (necessary for a TL-9 system with a bunch of offworld outposts<BR>
>since their system defence warships cannot enter the atmospheres under<BR>
>fusion rockets...)<BR>
><BR>
>Mark I: The theory was that it manoevred in space with a 1G fusion<BR>
>rocket, entered the atmosphere by aerobraking and deadstick gliding,<BR>
>then lit up turbofans when it reached a low enough altitude & speed. In<BR>
>order to return to orbit, it had to fly as high as possible under<BR>
>turbofans, then fire off a one-shot solid rocket booster to attain<BR>
>orbital velocity. Unfortunately the delta-vee required to leave the<BR>
>atmosphere required a HUGE rocket, so that didn't work.<BR>
><BR>
>Mark II: Replaced the turbofans and SRB with a combined AZHRAE drive.<BR>
>Easier in principle since the engines burned the same fuel whether<BR>
>operating as turbofans, ramjets or rockets, but I still couldn't carry<BR>
>enough fuel to get back to orbit. (Well, not if I wanted to carry a 20mm<BR>
>gauss gun and about 4000 kg of ordnance.)<BR>
<BR>
What airframe/structure are you using? (It's been a while since I designed <BR>
anything under FF&S so bear with me) The supersonic/hypersonic(?) frame <BR>
should give you enough lift and speed to reduce your thrust requirements. <BR>
Of course, a high performance TA fighter may still be impossible at TL9. <BR>
You may have to settle for ground based high altitude fighters can go just <BR>
to the edge of space.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:54:48 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
<BR>
I was looking over the GDW CT Double Adventure "Marooned/Marooned Alone",<BR>
and came up with this question.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The MacGuffin for the adventure is ...<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the said device is psionic in nature, the result of a technology<BR>
that makes the information unique and un-copyable. Since the technology is<BR>
not available to copy the data only the original will do.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:03:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: NERVA.<BR>
<BR>
>I find a figure of 33 feet for the diameter of the flight configuration<BR>
>of the engine (chosen so it could be used as an upper stage on a Saturn<BR>
>V).<BR>
<BR>
Note that even this was going to be used as an upper stage. The plausible<BR>
NERVA designs lacked the thrust-to-weight for first-stage designs (cf the<BR>
one Shadow cited, thrust-to-weight for the *engine* of 5:3 - you're not going<BR>
to build a SSTO out of that with NERVA ISPs. NERVA actually had pretty<BR>
low-energy exhaust and got most of its ISP benefit out of the pure-hydrogen<BR>
nature of the exhaust.)<BR>
<BR>
Higher-tech NTRs - cf FFS2's advanced NTR, kind of like Timberwind, and<BR>
its more advanced gas-core NTR - coudld possibly make SSTOs. Still,<BR>
even there, to get good payload you might want a chemical engine for<BR>
the early high-acceleration liftoff, because they all have lousy<BR>
thrust-to-weight.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:07:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TRW laser<BR>
<BR>
>the photos are nice, but information on this page is low. The page<BR>
> tell's that they are using a "deuterium fluoride chemical laser"<BR>
>  but they dont say anything about kilojoules, rate of fire and the<BR>
>  diameter of the focal array.<BR>
The focal array is probably pretty small. It's basically intended to<BR>
shoot rockets as they fly *overhead*, not at any significant<BR>
slant range.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know the power level, but the YAL-1 laser is probably<BR>
going to be ~1 megawatt ("megawatt class") with ~1 second pulse<BR>
duration, so ~1 megajoule pulse energy. The long pulse (compared to<BR>
FFS lasers) would give it a very, very low penetration, though.)<BR>
<BR>
One thing I have said before and will say again, though - given<BR>
any reasonably-designed targeting system, either laser can hit<BR>
any aircraft they can see out to the horizon (or the range at which the<BR>
beam spreads out too much, whichever comes first.) Agility and speed<BR>
are no defence. Laser weapons are going to have the same effect<BR>
on piloted aircraft that machine guns and shrapnel artillery<BR>
had on horse cavalry, though the Air Force hasn't realized it yet.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:17:55 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Smith, Walter <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:02:pm<BR>
Subject: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> >Hologram, maybe?.<BR>
><BR>
> Can you take a photograph of a hologram?  Or is copying one more<BR>
> complex than that?<BR>
><BR>
> I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a<BR>
> camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I have seen pictures of candles without a flame that had flame when they<BR>
were taken... similar thing maybe??<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:32:06 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker<BR>
<BR>
on 6/7/00 3:22 PM, Charles Prevatte at prevattec@worldnet.att.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> But are these good reading.  I am always on the prowl for GOOD<BR>
>> military SF.<BR>
>> Let me know, and it's heigh-ho, off to Amazon I go!<BR>
> I can't say enough good things about the Bolo books and short stories.  They<BR>
> are one of my all time favorites but there are enough variations in the<BR>
> storys that some people love some and hate others.<BR>
<BR>
I think I've read about everything Keith Laumer every wrote (including<BR>
Embassy).  I am a big fan of the DinoChrome brigade.  Thinking of Keith<BR>
reminds me of Retief of the CDT. Why do all my favorite writers keep dying<BR>
off?<BR>
<BR>
Anyone out there running diplomatic adventures.  I think Laumer's<BR>
commentaries on the foreign service are not only humorous, but very<BR>
enlightening.  Recall that Laumer himself served in the diplomatic corps.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:44:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
My problem with striker II is the lack of detailed rules for 'what just<BR>
broke" when you hit a vehical - IIRC that you take 1 point of pen over your<BR>
armor, u ok.. 2 points vehical goes poof or some such sillyness ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Black ICE<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 3:00 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> All this talk of Striker gets me wondering:  How does Striker II compare<BR>
> to the original?  I own it but haven't played it, and have never seen the<BR>
> original.  I'm beginning to wonder if I'm sitting on a gem or just a pale<BR>
> reflection of the original.  Opinions?<BR>
<BR>
Well, Striker II uses the same order-chit command-and-control system as<BR>
GDW's Command Decision miniatures rules.  Since I'm fond of the CD<BR>
system (my first micro-armor game system), I also like Striker II.<BR>
<BR>
Striker II also gives you the "putting heat back into plasma" design<BR>
sequence upgrade for TNE/FF&S.<BR>
<BR>
Although I once owned Striker, I never played it, so I really can't<BR>
compare it to Striker II.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:55:57 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/7/00 2:45 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> So some of the Grav tanks form a 'high guard' and extend the range of their<BR>
> lasers considerably, as well as acting as spotters outside conventional<BR>
> weapon range. Aslso, they can move in pretty fast, that FEBA is a lot<BR>
> further than you think. Also your shells are limited to speeds such that<BR>
> they won't burn up due to atmospheric friction, so may be in flight for<BR>
> several minutes if you really *are* hundreds of miles away. The lasers from<BR>
> the 'high guard' tanks can hit you in milliseconds, even from a thousand<BR>
> klicks away.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
OK, OK.  I am forced to fall back on my heavy artillery.  Or make that<BR>
Ortillery.<BR>
<BR>
Originally we were talking TL 9, and my point was that there will be no<BR>
super-weapon that will not have a countermeasure.  Historically, tanks have<BR>
fared poorly in the tank/anti-tank race, with artillery being a big<BR>
contributor.  Artillery has been the primary mechanism for battlefield<BR>
slaughter for about 150 or more years, and that is unlikely to change in the<BR>
NEAR future.<BR>
<BR>
Further, I have some skepticism about the 100% effectiveness of PD weapons<BR>
that everyone here seems to expect.  Artillery is the cheapest way to<BR>
deliver mass destruction on the battlefield using conventional weapons.<BR>
<BR>
And lastly, while I matched artillery alone against laser tank, I also<BR>
pointed out that this is bad tactics and suggested that the only way to go<BR>
was with combined arms.  That means tanks of my own, artillery, infantry on<BR>
the ground, air to ground and air-to-air assets -- the works.  I suspect<BR>
that anyone using a pure armored force, even of super-tanks, is going to get<BR>
seriously mauled against and opponent of equivalent tech and using combined<BR>
arms.<BR>
<BR>
Lastly, and just to be ornery, perhaps my 'artillery' is not traditional<BR>
guns.  Maybe I have really sophisticated missiles with reflective coatings<BR>
against lasers (add armor and ablatives if you like).  I add blip enhancers<BR>
that make them look like your grav tanks.  They are optically guided on<BR>
terminal track and have stealth capabilities.  They are still probably<BR>
cheaper than grav tanks, so I still get a good exchange rate.  And some of<BR>
theme are wild weasels that make even your IFF of questional value.<BR>
Naturally, they are over the horizon and fly NOE, using terrain -- just like<BR>
your grav tanks.  What do your PDs shoot at?  Is that a missile or a<BR>
friendly?<BR>
<BR>
And hey, no crew to worry about so these guys can outfly anything with<BR>
organic occupants.<BR>
<BR>
Am I getting closer now?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
(having fun)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:39:37 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Milibots<BR>
...<BR>
>My point was that given the relatively frozen tech level of Traveller how<BR>
>long is the service lifetime of a milibot? Is a milibot expected to have the<BR>
<BR>
  Depends too much on campaigns - the B:8 Robots (& 101..., AFAIK) can<BR>
be pretty badly broken to many POV's. Refs who want robots to be common-<BR>
place have to watch the economics to make sure that they shouldn't be<BR>
_everywhere_.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2573<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:41:02 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:40:29 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id BAA41353;<BR>
	Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:38:59 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id BAA41323<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:38:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:38:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006080538.BAA41323@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2573<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2574</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/8/00 5:38:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2574<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
Re: FS D gun<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: MacGuffin (>Spoiler)<BR>
RE: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
Re: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
re: Toasts in the Mess (was: Re: IN humour)<BR>
Re: costs of troops<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Striker versions<BR>
Re: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
RE: Striker Questions<BR>
Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Re: Striker<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Re: NERVA.<BR>
Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
Re: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:52:33 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:35:10 -0500 , Moody, Danny M. wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> >well, the T4 combat rules were very weak, which is why James Lindsay and I<BR>
> >wrote At Close Quarters.<BR>
> >http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ<BR>
> <BR>
> Speaking of which...<BR>
> 	The UPS man visited me before I left for work and brought me my brand-spanking-new copy of ACQ.<BR>
> <BR>
> 	My 10 minute browse impression was favorable....<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> 	A self-contained close-combat game in one book that can be dropped into any Traveller campaign or played alone (ACQ:Space Hulk, anyone?).  If you liked Snapshot or AHL, this is a definite buy.<BR>
> <BR>
> 5 out of 5 starbursts.<BR>
<BR>
<blush><BR>
<BR>
Now I know what it feels like to be a proud parent (no offense to any<BR>
*real* parents out there ;)<BR>
<BR>
PS: Shortly after ACQ went to print I managed to find an old copy of<BR>
"X-COM:3" in the bargain bin of the local computer store.  The two are<BR>
*very* similar, except that X-COM turns are obviously longer than six<BR>
seconds...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Make like a shepherd and get the flock out of here.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:00:55 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: FS D gun<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: FS Light APC and FS D gun<BR>
...<BR>
>100 megajoule Fusion gun ; DV 400, short range 1000 meters<BR>
...<BR>
>4 round box magazine for 480 kg rounds : 3040 kg, KCr 30<BR>
>4 480 kg EPG rounds ; 1920 kg, KCr 40<BR>
<BR>
  This sort of one-shot weapon (OK, smaller!) is the sort of thing that<BR>
a drone missile sled would want to terminate "lightly" armoured AFV's<BR>
that might have good ECM/PD. Someone really should retro these to CT.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:01:01 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
...<BR>
>>  Or merely more Templar dis-information?<BR>
><BR>
>fnord.<BR>
><BR>
>If I were the commander of the Navy at that point, given the sporadic<BR>
>nature of the 3FW war and the immense threat posed by the Solomani forces,<BR>
>I'd bleed coreward sectors dry before I'd more one squadron away from the<BR>
>old SAR. <BR>
<BR>
  Agreed, but it's still the ultimate reserve for those forces, so <BR>
some extra  forebearance is called for until they're available again.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:01:06 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: MacGuffin (>Spoiler)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
...<BR>
>The only angle I can think of: verification.  It may be that some<BR>
>quality of what the picture is printed on or contained in makes it<BR>
>easy to prove that the picture has not been altered in any way.<BR>
>A copy would not have this quality, and could thus be explained<BR>
>away as a fraud.  It seems a little thin to me at this point, though.<BR>
<BR>
  Michael Scott Rohan used a similar device to good effect in his<BR>
(excellent, IMHO) SF novel "Run to the Stars"; the protagonist is<BR>
fortunate to have an old-fashioned (for the 23rd C, anyway) chemical<BR>
media film camera, which even hostile agencies are willing to concede<BR>
is simply so much more difficult to fake conclusively that they have<BR>
to accept the evidence presented via that media. (Roughly; buy the book)<BR>
<BR>
  So you're sort of hand-waving that without a good technician (and <BR>
this could be a dead art in 30 years, let alone 3000!) and a goodly<BR>
chunk of time even with good (TL A?) gear, that you can't build up <BR>
an image of 30-50++ million "pixels" that will confidently pass as<BR>
not being a digitized artefact.<BR>
<BR>
  I'm not necessarily claiming to believe this, but it makes more<BR>
sense than telekinesis or flat star-maps :)<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:38:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
<BR>
N.I.C.Bradbeer wrote :<BR>
> Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> > The Navy's SSBN fleet has been similarly reduced. Total<BR>
> > submarine strength (Both SSN and SSBN) is half of what<BR>
> > it was ten years ago.<BR>
><BR>
> (Regarding nuclear reductions in general.) Surely this can only be a<BR>
> good thing, guys?<BR>
<BR>
Not if they're the only things between us and the bastards who are trying to<BR>
invade !<BR>
<BR>
And remember, China has not yet refused to use nuclear weapons in a first<BR>
strike capacity, and they have also refused to guarantee their neighbours<BR>
borders will not be violated, _and_ the current premier has been making some<BR>
decidedly expansionistic noises. Mainly directed at Taiwan, but several<BR>
analysts reckon if China is allowed to take Taiwan, it's leaders will assume<BR>
that they have carte blanche to take any other territory they want.<BR>
<BR>
> Nick<BR>
> +++<BR>
> War is bad.<BR>
> Total war is really bad.<BR>
> Nuclear war is a great card game.<BR>
<BR>
And the only way to be sure.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:42:35 +1200<BR>
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz<BR>
Subject: Re: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
<BR>
"Terry Carlino" Wrote:<BR>
<BR>
I was looking over the GDW CT Double Adventure "Marooned/Marooned<BR>
Alone",<BR>
and came up with this question.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The MacGuffin for the adventure is ...<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the said device is psionic in nature, the result of a technology<BR>
<BR>
that makes the information unique and un-copyable. Since the technology<BR>
is<BR>
not available to copy the data only the original will do.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
<BR>
I always thought that the picture was the original and that a copy could<BR>
be proved to be a 'fake' too easily<BR>
That the original couldn't be shown (or claimed) to be a copy of an<BR>
edited image.<BR>
Of course, that means that something in the picture proves it to be the<BR>
original which is a whole 'nother problem<BR>
<BR>
Jonathan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:42:44 +1200<BR>
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz<BR>
Subject: re: Toasts in the Mess (was: Re: IN humour)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Meanwhile, a toast!<BR>
><BR>
> He either fears his fate too much<BR>
> Or his desserts are too small<BR>
> Who fears to put it to the touch<BR>
> To win or lose it all!<BR>
><BR>
> (Montrose's toast)<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
<BR>
Remember, Montrose got *hung*<BR>
<BR>
Jonathan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:07:07 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: costs of troops<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: costs of troops (was: Milibots)<BR>
...<BR>
>wage on your TL10 employers world). This war bonus pay would be split<BR>
>between the soldiers and their employer (possibly a person, possibly a<BR>
>state, possibly a corporation).<BR>
<BR>
  I'm having flash-backs to a book review "German Military Entrepreneurs"<BR>
or some-such - _lots_ of scope for that in OTU, and, of course, it's not<BR>
a new phenomenon at all :><BR>
<BR>
>I'm doing a lot of reading about the Spanish army in Flanders in the 16th<BR>
>and 17th centuries, and it's showing ...<BR>
<BR>
  Why the Spanish Netherlands in particular?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:08:09 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
...<BR>
>The Zhodani Consulate shares an extensive border with the<BR>
>Vargr Extents to coreward of the Spinward Marches.  I think<BR>
>that the Vargr must already be a problem, and no doubt the<BR>
>subject of constant low-level warfare.  <BR>
<BR>
  I'm not sure if there was ever a detailed treatment under CT, but<BR>
in G:T it's pretty much a non-issue.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:36:37 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Striker versions<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Don't forget that the Classic Reprints are going to include a book of<BR>
>> the wargames - including Striker!<BR>
>><BR>
>How do Striker generated vehicle compare to FFS2?  I'm working on an<BR>
>application to generate and evaluate weapon systems, and need to select a<BR>
>system.  Suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
  Striker II and FF&S should work; FFS2 should, but there's no <BR>
wargame rules to clip them onto :(<BR>
<BR>
  The CT Striker version does have much to recommend it, IMHO,<BR>
if you're comfortable with a 30-second versus the 5-15-minute <BR>
turns from CD2, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:36:48 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
<BR>
  Well, this is a post from Mar-26/00 to another list:<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Can you tell us a little more about the command and design rules?<BR>
<BR>
  The command rules are just painful, unless you're a perfectionist of<BR>
the simulations school, but it's easy to trim down the command lags<BR>
to keep things playable (or up the time scale so that most of them<BR>
disappear?). Note - this is not to say that the rules are either<BR>
unrealistic or unplayable, simply that they're "too" realistic to<BR>
be highly playable for most beginners.<BR>
<BR>
  The design rules cover everything above the scale of man-portable<BR>
gear - personal weapons and all crew-served weapons except man-packed<BR>
missiles (AT & AA) are listed on charts. You want to design choppers<BR>
and high-performance jets? OK! Great War -era tanks and biplanes? OK!<BR>
Grav tanks and fully automatic nuclear howitzers? Yes, but, umm, we'd<BR>
like to have a word with you, citizen...<BR>
<BR>
  You're not _supposed_ to use persistent lethal gas agents _either_,<BR>
but we know that the Imperium is bluffing about enforcing its bans...<BR>
<BR>
  MT -era rules are all compatible with CT Striker; I'm unsure about<BR>
conversions to TNE (see below).<BR>
<BR>
  NOTE - "Striker II" is a different product - in addition to being for<BR>
TNE it's also a close cousin of GDW's "Command Decision" (2ed) and uses<BR>
TNE's FF&S for designs.<BR>
<BR>
  I use Striker (I; CT), but also retrofit FF&S material.<BR>
<BR>
  <shrug>  One or the other approach _will_ work, just decide what you<BR>
want first. I recommend CT & Striker, but then, I would...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson <BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:26:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>>> "They all laughed when I sat down at the piano naked.. the I pulled out<BR>
my<BR>
>>>> Grildore Technolgies Penguin Cannon, and all the laughter stopped."<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>Pulled out of where???<BR>
>><BR>
>> the piano of course.. where did you th. . .  You, sir, have a sick, sick<BR>
>> imagination and a poor grasp of body cavities.<BR>
><BR>
>And here I thought it was just hidden the same place that Duncan<BR>
>McCleod (pronounced "muh-cloud") hides that damned sword of his! :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Doug Berry pulls out his Grldor Technolgies Penguin Cannon & yells out<BR>
"There can be only one."<BR>
<BR>
>Over on the CAoL list we call that "Katana Space", and it's been<BR>
>theorized that bags of holding and the like use the same space.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I think Connar & Duncan, like all immortals are Jurai Princes of Light &<BR>
those are really Light Hawk Swords that they are using, but to protect<BR>
humans, they have made their Light Hawk Swords look like normal human<BR>
swords, & in honor of Tenchi Masaki, they make their Light Hawk Swords into<BR>
Katanas.  (Just try & prove me wrong.)<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:08:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:[OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>Hey, if it's no thicker or longer than a forearm, it *can* be done. But I<BR>
>ain't volunteering to *do* it... (and it ain't a *ninja* art! :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I still say that are Jurai.  Have you ever seen Yosho?  The man is in<BR>
his 600's but he looks to be late 40s/early 50s.  And, the Light Hawk Sword<BR>
is Psionic in Nature.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:48:38 -0500<BR>
From: "nvdoyle" <nvdoyle@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker Questions<BR>
<BR>
To clarify, then (corrections/explications desired):<BR>
<BR>
(A distillation of the PAW opening bit in FF&S)<BR>
<BR>
CPAWs are  atmospheric, purely. Don't work well at all in vacuum.<BR>
NPAWs are vacuum weapons. Don't work well in an atmosphere.<BR>
NPAWs can have their 'neutralizer' turned off, and become a CPAW.<BR>
<BR>
And it looks like I'll need to whip up a simplified design sequence for<BR>
them, closer to CT/Striker than FF&S.<BR>
<BR>
Apologies for the MIME hooey. Hopefully, it won't show this time...<BR>
<BR>
Noah Doyle<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:07:21 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>>Hologram, maybe?.  <BR>
><BR>
>Can you take a photograph of a hologram?  Or is copying one more<BR>
>complex than that?<BR>
<BR>
There are holographic copying devices around. They are not cheap.<BR>
If everyone has 3D TV and deals with 3D images, you could imagine<BR>
them becoming much cheaper.<BR>
<BR>
>I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a <BR>
>camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with taking an ordinary photograph of a hologram<BR>
is that the hologram contains more information than a 2D picture.<BR>
<BR>
If you look at a hologram from a different angle, you see a<BR>
different image, unlike a normal photograph.<BR>
<BR>
The 3D effect means that you would have to photograph the<BR>
hologram from many angles and put the picture back together<BR>
from those many pictures, which is, in effect, what making<BR>
a hologram does.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know how the holographic copying devices work.<BR>
They might just be able to use sufficient resolution to<BR>
take a direct copy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:59:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I think I've read about everything Keith Laumer every wrote (including<BR>
> Embassy).  I am a big fan of the DinoChrome brigade.  Thinking of Keith<BR>
> reminds me of Retief of the CDT. Why do all my favorite writers keep dying<BR>
> off?<BR>
<BR>
Well, given the quality of the last Laumer book I read, I think he may<BR>
have been better off dead than continuing to go downhill. It was<BR>
nowhere *near* his earlier stuff, and frankly, wouldn't have sold<BR>
without his name on it. :-(<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone out there running diplomatic adventures.  I think Laumer's<BR>
> commentaries on the foreign service are not only humorous, but very<BR>
> enlightening.  Recall that Laumer himself served in the diplomatic corps.<BR>
<BR>
If I ever need to run such an adventure, I'll just grab all the Retief<BR>
books and grab "appropriate" diplomatic personnel from them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Heck, some of Retiefs adventures could be a fun thing to dump a PC<BR>
party into the middle of. <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:03:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm having incredible problems with a TL-9 trans-atmospheric capable<BR>
> fighter (necessary for a TL-9 system with a bunch of offworld outposts<BR>
> since their system defence warships cannot enter the atmospheres under<BR>
> fusion rockets...)<BR>
><BR>
> Mark I: The theory was that it manoevred in space with a 1G fusion<BR>
> rocket, entered the atmosphere by aerobraking and deadstick gliding,<BR>
> then lit up turbofans when it reached a low enough altitude & speed. In<BR>
> order to return to orbit, it had to fly as high as possible under<BR>
> turbofans, then fire off a one-shot solid rocket booster to attain<BR>
> orbital velocity. Unfortunately the delta-vee required to leave the<BR>
> atmosphere required a HUGE rocket, so that didn't work.<BR>
<BR>
Use mass drivers (ie electromagnetic catapults) to launch them at 4+<BR>
gees. Heck, for the short duration involved, you can probably launch<BR>
them at 10-20 gees! Just keep in mind that the catapult may be a mile<BR>
or more long. Though I'm not sure they need to be that long if all you<BR>
need is to reach a given speed and altitude, rather than orbit.<BR>
<BR>
> Mark II: Replaced the turbofans and SRB with a combined AZHRAE drive.<BR>
> Easier in principle since the engines burned the same fuel whether<BR>
> operating as turbofans, ramjets or rockets, but I still couldn't carry<BR>
> enough fuel to get back to orbit. (Well, not if I wanted to carry a 20mm<BR>
> gauss gun and about 4000 kg of ordnance.)<BR>
<BR>
Using a catapult (or *big* JATO units) you can get by with scramjet<BR>
that is capable of operating (however poorly) as a ramjet until you get<BR>
up to the proper operating speed range. Add in the fusion rocket and<BR>
you've got it. <BR>
<BR>
Another possibility, which the rules don't cover as far as I know, is a<BR>
laser launch system. *Definitely* buildable at TL-9, and the arrays of<BR>
multi-megawatt lasers used in the launch system can double as defense<BR>
for the base!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:16:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Why do the real shells fall faster? Does gravity affect them more, or are<BR>
> your dummies deliberately not as aerodynamic?<BR>
<BR>
He's assuming that the dummies don't weigh as much. Which means that<BR>
due to drag, they'll fall slower than the real warheads.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:26:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: NERVA.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>I find a figure of 33 feet for the diameter of the flight configuration<BR>
>>of the engine (chosen so it could be used as an upper stage on a Saturn<BR>
>>V).<BR>
><BR>
> Note that even this was going to be used as an upper stage. The plausible<BR>
> NERVA designs lacked the thrust-to-weight for first-stage designs (cf the<BR>
> one Shadow cited, thrust-to-weight for the *engine* of 5:3 - you're not going<BR>
> to build a SSTO out of that with NERVA ISPs. NERVA actually had pretty<BR>
> low-energy exhaust and got most of its ISP benefit out of the pure-hydrogen<BR>
> nature of the exhaust.)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the exhaust temp was 2227 C, compared with 2727 for then current<BR>
chemical rockets (I assume that was the engines in the first stage of<BR>
the Saturn V). <BR>
<BR>
But it looks like there was room to raise that up to around 3000 C. But<BR>
that might not leave enough safety margin given that the reactor core<BR>
can't be allowed to reach 3600 C (at which point the graphite starts<BR>
sublimating), given that the fuel pellets would just about have to be<BR>
hotter than the gases passing thru the reactor.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:32:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>>Hologram, maybe?.  <BR>
><BR>
> Can you take a photograph of a hologram?  Or is copying one more<BR>
> complex than that?<BR>
<BR>
You can take a picture of an *image* generated from a hologram. You<BR>
can't copy the hologram that way, as the resulting picture will be a<BR>
regular photo. No "3d". <BR>
<BR>
You *can't* create a hologram of the image. <BR>
<BR>
And copying a hologram is either as simple as copying a negative, or it<BR>
can't be done at all. I'm not sure which. The actual hologram is a<BR>
simple bit of film, like a transparency, except that it consists of<BR>
seemingly random dark and light spots. <BR>
<BR>
Whether or not it can be copied easily depends on how accurately such<BR>
patterns have to be copied.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, right *now* photos aren't really any good as evidence, the legal<BR>
system hasn't realized it yet. We can create still images of<BR>
non-existent objects or events and they'll be good enough that experts<BR>
won't be able to say they've been faked. It's currently expensive. But<BR>
wait a few years. <BR>
<BR>
Movies/video are still somewhat usable, since the computer power<BR>
required to generate a *series* of realistic images is out of reach,<BR>
even for the movie companies. <BR>
<BR>
Holograms will be worse, but even they will be fakable long before we<BR>
hit TL15. <BR>
<BR>
> I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a <BR>
> camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
<BR>
Since your eye *is* a camera, that's a given.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:43:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a<BR>
>> camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
><BR>
> I have seen pictures of candles without a flame that had flame when they<BR>
> were taken... similar thing maybe??<BR>
<BR>
That's a matter of contrast and especially of the fact that the flash<BR>
washed out the candle flame because it was so dim. <BR>
<BR>
But you *can* take a photo of a candle flame if you use the right film.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:54:12 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> >Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >>  Or merely more Templar dis-information?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >fnord.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >If I were the commander of the Navy at that point, given the sporadic<BR>
> >nature of the 3FW war and the immense threat posed by the Solomani forces,<BR>
> >I'd bleed coreward sectors dry before I'd more one squadron away from the<BR>
> >old SAR.<BR>
><BR>
>   Agreed, but it's still the ultimate reserve for those forces, so<BR>
> some extra  forebearance is called for until they're available again.<BR>
<BR>
what about the 2 wars/ 2 1/2 wars policy like the USA's...the ability to<BR>
prosecute in 2 (major?) theatres and hold down a peacekeeping force<BR>
elsewhere...would this apply in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:53:29 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
<BR>
Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
STOCKHOLM, SWEDEN--The world of chemistry was shaken Monday by lanthanum's<BR>
announcement that the popular 57th element will quit Transition Group IIIb<BR>
of the periodic table at the end of the summer. "I have nothing but good<BR>
things to say about my time with the periodic table," said the ductile,<BR>
silvery-white metal, speaking from the site of its discovery by Carl Gustav<BR>
Mosander in 1839. "Nevertheless, I will be stepping down after Labor Day to<BR>
focus on my own earth-metal solo projects." Rumors of a longtime feud with<BR>
molybdenum and the constant demands of lens manufacturing are believed to be<BR>
behind the departure.<BR>
<BR>
What's this mean for Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
BTW Sorry if mentioned already.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Item sources from www.theonion.com<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:23:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
<BR>
Striker 2 was severely disapointing, it was based on the combined <BR>
arms version of Command Decision, which wasnt all that great to <BR>
begin with. years ago when the Combined Arms edition of CD was <BR>
still in playtest, a very large scale CA/CD game was staged based<BR>
on the first day of World War 3 as told in Red Storm Rising. this <BR>
game took most of the first floor of a clasroom building at the <BR>
University of Illinois, and took all day to play. needless to say we <BR>
foound a lot of problems with the rules. namely the Air and Artillery <BR>
rules.<BR>
<BR>
On a related subject, what about staging something like a planetary<BR>
invasion scenario at Gencon or Origins?<BR>
at that point we should use the original Striker. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2574<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (rly-yg05.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.5]) by air-yg02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:38:29 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:38:01 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA55755;<BR>
	Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:14:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:13:55 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA55710<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:13:55 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:13:55 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006081213.IAA55710@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2574<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2575</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/8/00 10:52:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2575<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: A new picture request<BR>
RE: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Faking evidence (was Re: Copying a Hologram)<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
RE: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
Re: Judges Guild are back baby<BR>
Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Re: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
RE: Ban request<BR>
Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
Re: Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
Re: Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
HavenCo<BR>
Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Traveller Product<BR>
RE: A new picture request<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:01:45 -0500 <BR>
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: RE: A new picture request<BR>
<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
> It's time for another picture request, not unlike the last <BR>
> one I did for<BR>
> Starports.  If you've got a picture or pictures of yourself <BR>
> and / or friends<BR>
> in a Travelleresque costume that would be suitable for G:T's "Ground<BR>
> Forces", send 'em to and I might be able to "sneak" 'em in the book<BR>
> somewhere.  Most useful would be soldiers (the more NOT U.S. <BR>
> geared, the<BR>
> better) vehicle maintenance techs, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse,<BR>
<BR>
As Doug used my name for one of the characters he developed as an example<BR>
character, I'd love to see if I could get my picture involved as well.<BR>
(Especially since the physical description he gave is pretty damn close,<BR>
except for eye color.) How long do I have to find a costume, take the shot,<BR>
develop it, scan it, and get it to you?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:16:39 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
> On a related subject, what about staging something like a<BR>
> planetary invasion scenario at Gencon or Origins? at that point<BR>
> we should use the original Striker. <BR>
<BR>
Hmm, the question obviously means Gencon US but  what  about  the<BR>
UK: any interest here (for this year's Gencon  UK)?  I  would  be<BR>
interested in one of the battles during Invasion  Earth  ...  say<BR>
the taking of Phoenix Starport  by  the  Imperials  or  something<BR>
similar.  (I'm thinking: both sides similar in TL, Imperials have<BR>
Marines and Solomani have regular troops and  fanatical  militia,<BR>
urban environment and street fighting, limit on collateral damage<BR>
thus  no  weapons  of  mass  destruction,  Imperials   get   more<BR>
interesting toys but have more logistical restrictions, ...)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:13:07 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a<BR>
> camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
(Handwave handwave)  That's what "higher technology" means?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:24:33 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Faking evidence (was Re: Copying a Hologram)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>BTW, right *now* photos aren't really any good as evidence, the legal <BR>
>system hasn't realized it yet. We can create still images of <BR>
>non-existent objects or events and they'll be good enough that experts <BR>
>won't be able to say they've been faked. It's currently expensive. But <BR>
>wait a few years. <BR>
<BR>
According to my personal experience with the American justice system,<BR>
the most common use of photographs is as a visual aid.  They are<BR>
seldom the only evidence available or presented.<BR>
<BR>
"I solemnly swear to tell the truth.  When I investigated the<BR>
murder scene, it looked like this <shows photos>."<BR>
<BR>
"I took this picture of the accused on the night of the murder.<BR>
His clothing was stained with what appeared to be blood, and he had <BR>
bruises on the left side of his face." <implied: the photographs<BR>
I am showing you are a reasonable representation of what I witnessed<BR>
that night><BR>
<BR>
The investigator is acting exactly like he or she did before the<BR>
advent of photography, he or she is just able to show photographs<BR>
instead of draw pictures.  Where opposing counsel would once say,<BR>
"the picture you are drawing/description you are giving is<BR>
inaccurate", they now say "these photographs do not show what<BR>
you think they do".  <BR>
<BR>
Now, if America (or another society in question) had a more<BR>
authoritarian government, there might be many more cases where<BR>
the photograph is the only evidence (as surveillance cameras<BR>
become more and more prevalent), and we cannot trust the<BR>
officials who claim the photograph has not been tampered with.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Complex evidence fakery becomes trivial with increasing <BR>
tech level.  The *only* safeguard becomes the (percieved)<BR>
incorruptibility of the police.  Being framed for a serious crime<BR>
by other private citizens is a major worry, people act with this in<BR>
mind - paranoia about personal information, constant assurance of<BR>
ironclad alibis, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:30:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> Well, as I noted, you'd likely be better off with a NERVA anyway.<BR>
> Hybrid systems tend to waste a lot of space and mass on stuff that only<BR>
> gets used part of the time.<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), the principal<BR>
difference between an atomic ramjet (such as the "Project Pluto" engine)<BR>
and NERVA is that the former scoops up air and uses it as its reaction<BR>
mass, while the latter uses hydrogen.  I'm trying to design a shuttle<BR>
intended for getting to and from the surfaces of Earth-like planets, *not*<BR>
for making interplanetary voyages.  Given a hypersonic airframe, and an<BR>
atomic ramjet engine, such a shuttle should be able to get to a<BR>
respectable fraction of the escape velocity of an Earth-like planet<BR>
without burning *any* fuel (aside from whatever is needed to reach the<BR>
ramjet's minimum speed).  Granted, actually getting into orbit will<BR>
require switching over to "rocket mode," but the savings in fuel tankage<BR>
should be worth it.  An added bonus of the atomic ramjet is its ability to<BR>
cruise through the atmosphere (albeit only at fairly high speeds) without<BR>
limitations imposed by the availability of fuel.  This could be *very*<BR>
useful for survey/exploration missions.  <BR>
                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 09:37:26 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Marooned - Marooned Alone<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
>I was looking over the GDW CT Double Adventure "Marooned/Marooned Alone",<BR>
>and came up with this question.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>My question: is it possible to create a picture that can be seen with<BR>
>the naked eye, but cannot be copied?  <BR>
 and<BR>
<BR>
>Can you take a photograph of a hologram?  Or is copying one more<BR>
>complex than that?<BR>
>I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a <BR>
>camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
<BR>
	As has been pointed out, a hologram contains more information<BR>
	than can be detected from one side.  I would suggest that it would<BR>
	be relatively easy to fake the image so that casual examination<BR>
	could not detect the fakery, but it would be much more difficult<BR>
	(though still possible) to fake the item so well that detailed<BR>
	examination would fail to notice something wrong.  Presumably,<BR>
	with a good image of some person, one could fake such an item.<BR>
	To be used as blackmail, the fake would have to stand up to<BR>
	meticulous testing.  Does the blackmailer have access to the<BR>
	resources required to produce a really high-quality fake of a<BR>
	detailed hologram (perhaps with a moving image)?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:06:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Judges Guild are back baby<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well it's true. They are at www.judgesguild.com and they have old Trav stuff<BR>
> for sale.<BR>
><BR>
> Apologies if this is already known.<BR>
<BR>
Too bad their sectors have been excommunicated.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:12:18 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> >Hologram, maybe?.<BR>
><BR>
> Can you take a photograph of a hologram?  Or is copying one more<BR>
> complex than that?<BR>
><BR>
> I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a<BR>
> camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
<BR>
The hologram is 3D.  You can easily detect the parallax<BR>
if you have stereo vision.  Take a 2D image of that, and<BR>
you have a 2D image, which is easily manipulable at our<BR>
TL, to say nothing of the future.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not talking about the simple holograms you see<BR>
on baseball cards and such, but the really nice, high-quality<BR>
ones.<BR>
<BR>
Now if you have stereo-vision camera, I think you<BR>
basically have the 3D that requires special glasses<BR>
to see.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:15:51 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: At Close Quarters Quick Review (was RE: MT/T4 help needed)<BR>
<BR>
"James W. Lindsay" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> PS: Shortly after ACQ went to print I managed to find an old copy of<BR>
> "X-COM:3" in the bargain bin of the local computer store.  The two are<BR>
> *very* similar, except that X-COM turns are obviously longer than six<BR>
> seconds...<BR>
<BR>
The creators of XCOM have said that Snapshot was the<BR>
inspiration for their sqaud-level combat system.  XCOM 1<BR>
was the best of the series, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
A Traveller Mod for XCOM would be great!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:02:32 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Ban request<BR>
<BR>
Please stop this. It has no place here.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Benyamene'<BR>
> ZeAbe' Akella<BR>
> Sent: 07 June 2000 20:16<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Ban request<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/7/00 9:00 AM,<BR>
> samwise1@email.msn.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > I reply as I am I addressed. When the public personal<BR>
> attacks cease my<BR>
> > public responses will. If you find me aggravating because<BR>
> you disagree with<BR>
> > me, rest assured I find you just as aggravating. I will<BR>
> not be held to some<BR>
> > bizarre standard while people randomly insult my<BR>
> character and intelligence<BR>
> > with impunity no matter who they are.<BR>
> > When I see a ban request for those who began this I may<BR>
> take such as this<BR>
> > seriously. Until then, have a nice day.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Sam<BR>
><BR>
> AFAICT, you were the one throwing insults and making<BR>
> personal attacks. While<BR>
> I agree with much of what you say, the manner in which you say it is<BR>
> offensive. I would never /ask/ for someone to be removed<BR>
> from the list, as I<BR>
> am an extremely tolerant fellow, but in your case I will<BR>
> not object. I don't<BR>
> even recall Legate calling anyone an "amoral idiot", and<BR>
> though you only did<BR>
> so by inference, it was still quite over the line. I am not<BR>
> bothered by<BR>
> this, but you must understand, you reap what you sow. Oh,<BR>
> and also judge not<BR>
> lest ye be judged. Amoral? Dude, anothers morality is none<BR>
> of your business.<BR>
><BR>
> Benyamene' Ze'Abe Akella<BR>
> Son of the Right Hand<BR>
> The Ravenous Wolf<BR>
> Patriarch of Clan Hendricks<BR>
> Prince of the Undeclared<BR>
> Warder of the Sacred Herb<BR>
> Steward of the Garden Eternal<BR>
> Lord of House Akella<BR>
> High Epopt of the Brotherhood for the Abolition of<BR>
> Temporal/Spatial Reality<BR>
> and the Unification of the Shekinah<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:27:28 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Copying a Hologram (was SPOILER re: Marooned/Marooned Alone)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, right *now* photos aren't really any good as evidence, the legal<BR>
> system hasn't realized it yet. We can create still images of<BR>
> non-existent objects or events and they'll be good enough that experts<BR>
> won't be able to say they've been faked. It's currently expensive. But<BR>
> wait a few years.<BR>
<BR>
Luckily, you don't have to prove that a picture is _not_ faked.<BR>
If you assert that it is, you have to prove that it is.  If there is a<BR>
question of authenticity, it won't come into the trial at all.  That<BR>
is the case now, and will remain so.  You have to prove things<BR>
like chain of custody and need a witness who can verify its<BR>
history.<BR>
<BR>
So at best, you'll be able to keep a photo out of the trial<BR>
totally.  The jury won't see it.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:32:16 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Item sources from www.theonion.com<BR>
<BR>
You are aware that The Onion is comedy?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:10:54 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
> Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
<snip><BR>
> What's this mean for Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
STL spacetravel?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:14:16 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
Jesse wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've got it available at my site.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/resources/<BR>
<BR>
This is the original readme.txt file for the font, which a number of sites<BR>
have lost.  To the best of my knowledge, the 0.5 version of Bilanidin-Bold<BR>
is the most recent in existence; it's certainly the "half-finished version<BR>
floating around".  :)  I replaced \ with / in some URLs below.<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
  ---------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Bilanidin-Bold v.0.5<BR>
===================<BR>
(c) 1997 Glenn Hoppe<BR>
jumpspace@geocities.com<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/<BR>
<BR>
=========================================================================<BR>
Hot of the presses! A new typeface inspired by the inscriptions in those<BR>
Digest Group Publications products.<BR>
<BR>
This preview includes letters a-z (A-Z repeated). Character mapping<BR>
judiciously decoded from DGP's excellent Starship Operators Manual, since<BR>
that book contained the most phrases that I was able to decode. Doesn't<BR>
match some stuff in the MegaTraveller Journal. Caveat Lector.<BR>
<BR>
This is a preview version with just the letters. No numerals, punctuation,<BR>
or anything else. I'm just letting you people on the TravLang list in on<BR>
it, I will soon release it to the general Traveller community. Please<BR>
don't pass this version around until I'm done. (I wouldn't want a bunch of<BR>
half-finished versions floating around when the bug-ridden and finished<BR>
version is done ;-> )<BR>
<BR>
get it now at:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/Bilanidin.sit><BR>
(mac TrueType version)<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/bilani.zip><BR>
(PC TrueType version)<BR>
<BR>
Assumptions<BR>
===========<BR>
In constructing this typeface, I have assumed that it is the writing<BR>
system developed after the Vilani contacted other races, esp. Solomani,<BR>
and was used to transliterate Solomani documents, etc. I've always<BR>
imagined Vilani as being ideographical, perhaps with each syllable having<BR>
its own character. Maybe I'm just prejudiced by tonal languages such as<BR>
Chinese. Anyway, I envision this typeface as being akin to Japanese<BR>
Katakana: a simplified orthography used chiefly for transliteration.<BR>
Perhaps through the years of the Long Night, most Galanglic writers have<BR>
adopted it as the standard writing system.<BR>
<BR>
That would explain its use littering the halls of the Free Trader in SOM,<BR>
and on all the gadgets in the MTJ.<BR>
<BR>
Issues to be resolved<BR>
=====================<BR>
<BR>
Numerals<BR>
- --------<BR>
<BR>
I wonder what kind of numerals are used in Vilani writing? Do they have a<BR>
romanesque writing system? Babylonian? Egyptian? or good ol' Arabic? In the<BR>
end, I think I'll just use standard Arabic numberals, in the same style as<BR>
the lettering. Haven't done it yet, tho'. Comments?<BR>
<BR>
Punctuation<BR>
- -----------<BR>
What kind of punctuation should I have, and what form should it take? Full<BR>
stops (periods) half, 3/4, interrogrative, exclamatory... again, I haven't<BR>
yet decided. I'm loathe to just use period looking things, and comma looking<BR>
things, etc. Wait for next version.<BR>
<BR>
Capitals<BR>
- --------<BR>
Should I create capitals? What form would they take? Personally, I don't<BR>
think capitals are all that necessary for a typeface such as this.<BR>
<BR>
Double-Vowels<BR>
- -------------<BR>
Should I create special characters for vilani doubled-vowels? uu ii etc. I'm<BR>
leaning toward this. Maybe even special characters for consonant sounds like<BR>
kh, sh...<BR>
<BR>
Tonality<BR>
- --------<BR>
OK, here's a tough one. What about tone marks? (accents) I think that Vilani<BR>
orthography might not use them. Tone is inferred from context. This would mean<BR>
that word order would have to be important in structuring sentences, I think.<BR>
Maybe Kenji has an opinion. :)<BR>
<BR>
Galanglic students of Vilani may have developed tone marks to assist in<BR>
learning, though. So perhaps I should create marks of some sort. I've been<BR>
thinking of \ ^ / - above and/or below the glyph. Ideas?<BR>
<BR>
 ----------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 09:28:05 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Agreed, but it's still the ultimate reserve for those forces, so<BR>
>> some extra  forebearance is called for until they're available again.<BR>
><BR>
>what about the 2 wars/ 2 1/2 wars policy like the USA's...the ability to<BR>
>prosecute in 2 (major?) theatres and hold down a peacekeeping force<BR>
>elsewhere...would this apply in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
  Against even big client-states/pocket empires, no doubt, and they wouldn't<BR>
need even to much disturb central reserves (let alone other frontiers), but<BR>
it's really unlikely to apply to the Zho's and the Sphere - they're both<BR>
fairly big and tolerably compact, so they should be able to bring _lots_<BR>
of strength to their border wars.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 12:37:28 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: HavenCo<BR>
<BR>
Remember the thread about creating your own<BR>
country?  We may have a test case soon.<BR>
<BR>
HavenCo.Com, a company located in<BR>
http://www.havenco.com/<BR>
<BR>
The Principality of Sealand<BR>
http://www.sealandgov.com/<BR>
[take their legal statements with a bag of salt, they use<BR>
several legal terms of art incorrectly and their not exactly<BR>
neutral on the issues]<BR>
<BR>
Straight out of Count Zero:<BR>
[Conroy and Turner approach a seemingly abandoned oil<BR>
platform by helicopter: the helipad is marked by a large<BR>
biohazard symbol...]<BR>
"Conroy: Somebody tried to set it up once as a data haven,<BR>
back before the war."<BR>
<BR>
Its legality?  Dubious, IMO.  A 1968 low court in the UK<BR>
ruled that Sealand was outside the jurisdictional territory<BR>
of the UK.  But those territorial limits have changed since<BR>
then, and particularly in respect to structures.  I suspect<BR>
that the UK merely allows Sealand to continue as it is, because<BR>
it has been pretty irrelevant, at least until now. We'll see<BR>
what happens if and when the UK decides to challenge it.<BR>
So far, the UK has not.  That will hurt the their case a bit,<BR>
but it isn't necessarily fatal.  Of course, if the UK just decide<BR>
to take it, not a lot will happen.  If they keep shooting at<BR>
ships that enter their asserted territory, they're sure to get<BR>
in trouble, especially when they do this outside their original<BR>
3-mile limit, because they aren't a party to the UN conventions<BR>
that extend territoral waters to 12 miles.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:42:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> OK, OK.  I am forced to fall back on my heavy artillery.  Or make that<BR>
> Ortillery.<BR>
<BR>
Bad choice, unfortunately.  There's a reason that artillery-equivalents (battleship guns) are obsolete at TL 7.  It's slow enough that a surface ship can simply dodge it, assuming it has radar detection to tell it where the shot is going to land.  The same is true for grav tanks, only worse -- if an object is above the horizon in a ballistic flight path for more than about 2 seconds, it really isn't going to hit anything at all, assuming it doesn't just get shot down.  This means that conventional artillery may be useful for recon by fire and area denial, but won't be effective at actually killing vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
Now, you can make these things into guided or fire and forget missiles, but your cost per shot just went way up, and they're still vulnerable to point defense, and have just gotten a whole lot more vulnerable to ECM.  Plus, if<BR>
you're going to go with missiles, just do it properly and use terrain-following<BR>
cruise missiles, they're a whole lot less vulnerable to point defense than anything on a ballistic path, because they have considerably less exposure time.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, missiles don't have that problem, but are dramatically slower.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:44:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Not if they're the only things between us and the bastards who are trying<BR>
> to invade !<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, (a) even a reduced force is plenty, and (b) our conventional forces are quite capable of obliterating any other force in a conventional conflict anyway, particularly if we have the luxury of being on defense.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:07:31 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>what about the 2 wars/ 2 1/2 wars policy like the USA's...the ability to<BR>
prosecute in 2 (major?) theatres and hold down a peacekeeping force<BR>
elsewhere...would this apply in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<<BR>
<BR>
I get the feeling from the canon writings that this has never been an issue.<BR>
The 3I seems to have incredible luck with each war ending a year or two<BR>
before the next one begins. I think the only time they really ran multiple<BR>
offensives was during the Pacification Campaigns.<BR>
What about the time required to shift reserves and new production along that<BR>
1 year supply line in each direction and having to worry about how to tell<BR>
the logistics department to start sending everything the other way. Never<BR>
mind moving the fleets in being, if all new replacement and repair and refit<BR>
keeps going to the war front that ended 6 months ago, it will put a severe<BR>
strain on operations on the other front that just became active. That would<BR>
mean the SRW starting so soon after the 3FW was a miracle of command and<BR>
control to shift those lines.<BR>
6 months to hear the 3FW was over.<BR>
6 months to tell all the manufacturers and depots to send stuff RImward.<BR>
Less than 6 months to send the orders to cross the borders.<BR>
Gavin must have had the General Staff of Untold Might to pull that off.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:09:56 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>I'm not sure if there was ever a detailed treatment under CT, but<BR>
in G:T it's pretty much a non-issue.<<BR>
<BR>
I never saw much of anything on in CT or MT.<BR>
Either the Zhos never really attracted the Vargr enough or they just used<BR>
telepathy to make them go away.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:45:47 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Traveller Product<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFD179.C2A36780<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know where I can obtain decent scans of the cover art of =<BR>
various Traveller products?<BR>
<BR>
Regards, MJD<BR>
<BR>
Behind The Throne: www.highbridgepress.com<BR>
<BR>
Read my column at: www.fiction-fantasy.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFD179.C2A36780<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>Does anyone know where I can obtain =<BR>
decent scans=20<BR>
of the cover art of various Traveller products?</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Regards, MJD</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Behind The Throne: <A=20<BR>
href=3D"http://www.highbridgepress.com">www.highbridgepress.com</FONT=<BR>
></DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Read my column at: <A=20<BR>
href=3D"http://www.fiction-fantasy.net">www.fiction-fantasy.net</FONT=<BR>
></DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFD179.C2A36780--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:26:36 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: A new picture request<BR>
<BR>
Roughly a month the last I heard.  Subject to change at zero notice of<BR>
course :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jason Kemp<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 6:02 AM<BR>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: RE: A new picture request<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
><BR>
> > It's time for another picture request, not unlike the last<BR>
> > one I did for<BR>
> > Starports.  If you've got a picture or pictures of yourself<BR>
> > and / or friends<BR>
> > in a Travelleresque costume that would be suitable for G:T's "Ground<BR>
> > Forces", send 'em to and I might be able to "sneak" 'em in the book<BR>
> > somewhere.  Most useful would be soldiers (the more NOT U.S.<BR>
> > geared, the<BR>
> > better) vehicle maintenance techs, etc.<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse,<BR>
><BR>
> As Doug used my name for one of the characters he developed as an example<BR>
> character, I'd love to see if I could get my picture involved as well.<BR>
> (Especially since the physical description he gave is pretty damn close,<BR>
> except for eye color.) How long do I have to find a costume, take<BR>
> the shot,<BR>
> develop it, scan it, and get it to you?<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks,<BR>
> Jason<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2575<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (rly-ye05.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.202]) by air-ye02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 13:52:56 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 13:52:32 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA68872;<BR>
	Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:41:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:40:43 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA68820<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:40:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:40:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006081740.NAA68820@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2575<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2576</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/8/00 3:10:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2576<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
RE: Traveller Product<BR>
Re: Traveller Product<BR>
Re: ICBMs [OT]<BR>
real world tech level advance<BR>
RE: Warbots<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
Re: Vilani font<BR>
Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Milbots<BR>
RE: ICBMs [OT]<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
Re: Milbots<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
Survivors (FW: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.)<BR>
Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
New Traveller Posters Now In Stock!<BR>
TML: Landgrab Abandonment<BR>
Re: ICBMs [OT]<BR>
Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: MacGuffin (>Spoiler)<BR>
Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:47:53 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson writes:<BR>
>   Against even big client-states/pocket empires, no doubt, and they<BR>
>   wouldn't <BR>
> need even to much disturb central reserves (let alone other frontiers), but<BR>
> it's really unlikely to apply to the Zho's and the Sphere - they're both<BR>
> fairly big and tolerably compact, so they should be able to bring _lots_<BR>
> of strength to their border wars.<BR>
<BR>
The imperium has to be prepared for a two (or even three) front war at any<BR>
time, for the simple reason that it takes 6-8 weeks for a J-6 courier to cross<BR>
a sector, and 15-20 weeks for a J-4 fleet to cross a sector.  Central reserves<BR>
aren't going to reach a war in the spinward marches or solomani rim in less<BR>
than around 2 years after the start of hostilities, so local forces had <BR>
better be able to hold off attackers for at least that long.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:49:36 -0500 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller Product<BR>
<BR>
I have scans of most of the T4 book at my old Not-the-IG-Website<BR>
 <BR>
http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/products.html <http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/products.html> <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **          <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]<BR>
Sent: Thursday, 08 June 2000 12:46<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller Product<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know where I can obtain decent scans of the cover art of various Traveller products?<BR>
 <BR>
Regards, MJD<BR>
 <BR>
Behind The Throne: www.highbridgepress.com <http://www.highbridgepress.com> <BR>
 <BR>
Read my column at: www.fiction-fantasy.net <http://www.fiction-fantasy.net> <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:05:28 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Product<BR>
<BR>
Have scanner, will travel....<BR>
Which product did you want?  <BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:09:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs [OT]<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>                  <BR>
>>N.I.C.Bradbeer wrote :                   <BR>
>> (Regarding nuclear reductions in general.) Surely this can only be a<BR>
>> good thing, guys?<BR>
><BR>
>Not if they're the only things between us and the bastards who are trying to<BR>
>invade !<BR>
<BR>
It is important to recognize that with ICBMs there is a risk of an accidental nuclear war.  <BR>
Militarily, many people consider ICBMs to be a relic from the Cold War.  They are dinosaurs.  <BR>
Your argument is really a good argument for deployment of the National Missile Defense and <BR>
for proceeding with development of a Theater Missile Defense capability.<BR>
<BR>
ICBMs are somewhat like the handgun arguement.  They are more dangerous to you than to <BR>
what you are defending against.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: real world tech level advance<BR>
<BR>
"A U.S-built laser shot down a Katyusha rocket in a New<BR>
Mexico test.  It is to be installed on Israel's border with<BR>
Lebanon."<BR>
<BR>
The Wall Street Journal, 8 June 2000, page 1, col. 3.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:50:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Warbots<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>IMO he stuffed up with the Sardakaur and the whole silly<BR>
>"weirding module"thing.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed -- about right, but not perfect.<BR>
<BR>
>One has to say, though, that the dart in Dune was remotely<BR>
<BR>
>controlled by a spy hidden in one of the walls, it was <BR>
>_not_ autonomous.<BR>
<BR>
That is correct, so I guess it's not a milbot.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:57:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
I tried the URL given for the mac version and got a "Whoops! We can't find<BR>
your page!" from geocities.  I tried briefly looking for a link at the<BR>
site, but no luck.  <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:00:21 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani font<BR>
<BR>
Please disregard previous message.  I tried a second time and it worked.<BR>
Don't know what I did...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:08:40 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
In my opinion, letting a country act like a country for 32 years<BR>
leaves you little wiggle room later to claim you were just kidding.<BR>
<BR>
Great Britain's official stance has been, "it's not part of our<BR>
territory".  That's what they tell people who ask about it,<BR>
even in their own courts of law.  <BR>
<BR>
Just being inside a newly-marked territorial waters line <BR>
won't be enough for Sealand to become British territory again.<BR>
There are plenty of countries closer to each other than<BR>
12 miles, they just split the difference.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:36:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milbots<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>My suspicion is that modern militaries have been<BR>
>structured for short wars,rather than for long wars. <BR>
[deletion]<BR>
>The main driver for military theory in the West and the<BR>
>Soviet Union has been the 'big show' in Europe. Soviet <BR>
>doctrine relied on a relatively short 4-6 week war, mostly<BR>
<BR>
>becasue after about that point their supply lines curl<BR>
>up and die, and thats what everyone planned around. But it<BR>
>was basically a choice.<BR>
>An example of a 'long' modern war is the Americans in <BR>
>Vietnam, which lastedfrom, what, 1965 to 1972 ? A second <BR>
>example is the  Iran-Iraq war. A thirdexample is the <BR>
>Soviets in Afghanistan.<BR>
<BR>
Sun Tzu devotes an entire chapter to the importance of<BR>
achieving a speedy victory.  I suspect that long wars are<BR>
never good for any combatant.  Vietnam is associated with<BR>
extreme instability in the United States.  Afghanistan<BR>
drained the Soviet economy; did it lead to the rise of<BR>
Gorbachev and the decline of the Soviet era?   Iran and<BR>
Iraq wasted a generation of young men (and boys) in eight<BR>
years, during which they largely stopped their economic<BR>
clocks -- which may have been an objective of their rulers,<BR>
but that's another story.<BR>
<BR>
How long is long depends on the circumstances.  I suspect<BR>
that in the Far Future, as in Roman times, a short war<BR>
could last for years before it began to destroy the<BR>
societal fabric and internal economy.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:48:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: ICBMs [OT]<BR>
<BR>
> ICBMs are somewhat like the handgun argument.  They are more<BR>
> dangerous to you than to<BR>
> what you are defending against.<BR>
<BR>
OK,  can't resist that bait.  Federal statistics show that you are less<BR>
likely to be injured in a assault if you are armed with a handgun than if<BR>
you resist in any other way, or even offer no resistance.  The myth that<BR>
having a gun makes you more likely to be a victim of it is just that, a<BR>
myth, unsubstantiated by any facts.<BR>
<BR>
I don't want to perpetuate and gun argument on this list, so if you'd like<BR>
to discuss this offline, I will be happy to produce vast quantities of<BR>
evidence to support this position, including sources.<BR>
<BR>
Send gun related stuff to my other address:  webmaster@cordite.com<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:41:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
Just installed these, _very_ neat!  Is this still being worked on?  I<BR>
notice the readme file is dated 1997.  Regarding the issues in the readme<BR>
file:<BR>
<BR>
Numerals:  The Vilani would probably have a 'formal' numbers system. That<BR>
is, arabic-like.  If they use base 10 (and I'm pretty sure they do) then<BR>
going with 10 symbols like arabic would be fine, IMO.  For the look of<BR>
them I suggest embellishments of:<BR>
0.  inverted-U.  Originally an empty bowl, goes with Vilani food<BR>
obsession.<BR>
1-3  single, double and triple dots, placed vertically.<BR>
4. A cross or '+' symbol.<BR>
5. A U with a closed top, a "full bowl"<BR>
6-8: As 5, but with single, double or triple horizontal dots on top.<BR>
9: A circle with horizontal bar through the middle (like theta).<BR>
<BR>
Punctuation: A good symbol for full-stop might be a vertical bar.<BR>
Half-stop might be a dash.  Quotes could look like a backslash and forward<BR>
slash.  \this is quoted material/.  Parentheses?  Not sure.  There's no<BR>
need for a 3/4 stop; it's rarely used in english.  <BR>
<BR>
Capitals:  I agree that caps are not really necessary.  Vilani could<BR>
certainly be without them.<BR>
<BR>
Double-vowels:  Well, depends how much extra work you want to do :-), but<BR>
if the language has diphthongs, it probably has symbols for them.<BR>
<BR>
Tonality:  I'm not sure, but I don't think any tonal languages on earth<BR>
use phonetic-type alphabets, so this is a thoughie.  I think assuming<BR>
context fills in works fine.<BR>
<BR>
Just some thoughts...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:47:04 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Milbots<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> Sun Tzu devotes an entire chapter to the importance of <BR>
> achieving a speedy victory.  I suspect that long wars are <BR>
> never good for any combatant.  Vietnam is associated with <BR>
> extreme instability in the United States.  <BR>
<BR>
IMO that instability had more to do with the ongoing period<BR>
of social change than it did with the economic and human<BR>
cost of the Vietnam war.  The war was just one of many<BR>
interrelated points of social contention during that period.<BR>
<BR>
There must be thousands of "Vietnams" in Imperial space.  The<BR>
Marine and Army comanders probably like it that way, as long<BR>
as they get to control the intensity of the conflict in these<BR>
police action/counter-insurgency zones.  Got to train the <BR>
groundpounders somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 12:54:30 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> What about the time required to shift reserves and new production along that<BR>
> 1 year supply line in each direction and having to worry about how to tell<BR>
> the logistics department to start sending everything the other way. Never<BR>
> mind moving the fleets in being, if all new replacement and repair and refit<BR>
> keeps going to the war front that ended 6 months ago, it will put a severe<BR>
> strain on operations on the other front that just became active. That would<BR>
> mean the SRW starting so soon after the 3FW was a miracle of command and<BR>
> control to shift those lines.<BR>
> 6 months to hear the 3FW was over.<BR>
> 6 months to tell all the manufacturers and depots to send stuff RImward.<BR>
> Less than 6 months to send the orders to cross the borders.<BR>
> Gavin must have had the General Staff of Untold Might to pull that off.<BR>
<BR>
One word.<BR>
<BR>
Decentralization.<BR>
<BR>
Known space is big. really, REALLY big. Bigger than you think. Big<BR>
enough so that Core, The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim mightn as<BR>
well be entirely separate universes. Did I mention that Known Space is<BR>
really BIG??!!<BR>
<BR>
War happens in the Spinward Marches? Well the Megacorps in the Spinward<BR>
Marches go on war footing. The rest of the Imperium reads about it on<BR>
TNS. <BR>
<BR>
War happens in the Solomani Rim? Well the Megacorps in the Solomani Rim<BR>
go on war footing. The rest of the Imperium reads about it on TNS.<BR>
<BR>
Ol' Cleon the First knew what he was doing when he instituted a feudal<BR>
control system in the Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
Central planning and control is utterly impossible when you have<BR>
year-long lines of communication. The same goes, of course, for<BR>
logistics and production. Maybe if the war is really big (which the<BR>
Imperium did not see until the Rebellion), neighboring sectors might<BR>
kick in some help, but there are no reserves or production shifted<BR>
_anywhere_ in the Imperium along 6 month supply lines.<BR>
<BR>
This is why Strephon had had to increase the Sector archdukes' power,<BR>
and, not coincidentally, how the Imperium managed to shatter so easily<BR>
during the Rebellion; the Sector is the largest practical unit of<BR>
logistics, so nothing significant was broken when the sectors peeled<BR>
off.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 12:59:14 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
>     Doug Berry pulls out his Grldor Technolgies Penguin Cannon & yells out<BR>
> "There can be only one."<BR>
<BR>
We were watching that awful new show 'Survivors' the other day, and when<BR>
one person pulled out a small machete to whack at something my wife and<BR>
I turned to each other simultaneously and said, (in bad accents) "There<BR>
can be only one!" all right it wasn't rehearsed but after 15 years you<BR>
tend to think of the same jokes a lot ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Since the whole thing is a 'vote someone out till there's single<BR>
survivor', wonder how they're gonna break that last 1:1 tie ;-) <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:40:38 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
<BR>
At 13:40 -0400 8/6/00, "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <BR>
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
> > Lanthanum Quits Periodic Table Of Elements<BR>
><snip><BR>
> > What's this mean for Traveller?<BR>
>STL spacetravel?<BR>
<BR>
barium based drives?<BR>
<BR>
"What  do the Vargr do with Jump Drives? Bury'em." SOpM Vol 1<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:15:52 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Survivors (FW: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>Since the whole thing is a 'vote someone out till there's single<BR>
>survivor', wonder how they're gonna break that last 1:1 tie ;-) <BR>
<BR>
Once they're down to a few "survivors", the people on the island<BR>
stop voting.  I'm not certain, but I think at that point the people <BR>
*previously* kicked off the island get to vote.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 13:21:55 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
 <BR>
> And remember, China has not yet refused to use nuclear weapons in a first<BR>
> strike capacity, and they have also refused to guarantee their neighbours<BR>
> borders will not be violated, _and_ the current premier has been making some<BR>
> decidedly expansionistic noises. Mainly directed at Taiwan, but several<BR>
> analysts reckon if China is allowed to take Taiwan, it's leaders will assume<BR>
> that they have carte blanche to take any other territory they want.<BR>
<BR>
Wealll, yes and no. They DO have a historical, and recent (till '49)<BR>
claim to Taiwan as a province of China. The fact that the Taiwanese<BR>
government still has never legally declared that they are the<BR>
independent nation of Taiwan muddies the waters further, since that<BR>
means the both sides in the dispute accept that Taiwan is part of China.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Taiwan's offical name<BR>
is the Republic of China, meaning that they are still claiming that<BR>
they, not the communists, are the legitimate government of China. They<BR>
haven't been touting that much recently, and indeed, the current<BR>
tensions arise from offhand remarks during the recent elections hinting<BR>
at independence.<BR>
<BR>
So, legally, the mainland government has a legitimate claim to Taiwan.<BR>
<BR>
Morally, well they're corrupt warlords who will nonchalantly murder<BR>
thousands and thousands of their own people just so they can continue to<BR>
make a fast buck off of Western businesses who are themselves so greedy<BR>
they're willing to overlook anything.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm....they'd get along in the 3I famously....<BR>
<BR>
(Sorry, the old cynicism gland must be overactive today)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 16:49:27 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In my opinion, letting a country act like a country for 32 years<BR>
> leaves you little wiggle room later to claim you were just kidding.<BR>
<BR>
I agree.  If I were the UK, I wouldn't have tolerated once<BR>
the territorial limit was extended.  I'd let them still keep it<BR>
and call it whatever they want, but I'd declare that it was<BR>
at my luxury.  That way they're claim is not legally 'hostile'<BR>
to mine.<BR>
<BR>
> Just being inside a newly-marked territorial waters line<BR>
> won't be enough for Sealand to become British territory again.<BR>
> There are plenty of countries closer to each other than<BR>
> 12 miles, they just split the difference.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, IF Sealand is a county.<BR>
The question:  Is Sealand a country at all?<BR>
Which court is asking the question is vital in answering the<BR>
question.  When it becomes important, say when HavenCo<BR>
starts hosting Kiddie Porn or UK military secrets, we'll<BR>
just see how long it lasts.  International law is an abstract<BR>
layer covering naked power, thinner than in the domestic<BR>
law of most countries.  If the court asking the question<BR>
decides it isn't a country,  bye bye.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 16:52:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: New Traveller Posters Now In Stock!<BR>
<BR>
The new Traveller posters promoting the release of our GRIP Boxed edition for Traveller is now in-stock and available! These posters are basically free, we just ask that you pay shipping and handling ($2.50 to US destinations). This poster was done by well known Traveller artist David Deitrick, who drew the original Traveller 'Vargr' poster. <BR>
<BR>
A special limited edition run of the poster without the promotional text, and signed by Marc Miller and David Deitrick, will be available in about 2 weeks (they are printed and awaiting on signatures). You can pre-order your copy of these from our website for $20.00 each, plus shipping and handling. These will be sold on a first come, first served basis until supplies run out.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: TML: Landgrab Abandonment<BR>
<BR>
I hereby relinquish my development option on<BR>
Garda-Vilis/Tanoose.<BR>
<BR>
There seems to be more canon on it than I was<BR>
aware of, and I don't think I can do it the justice<BR>
it deserves.  At least not currently.  I don't want<BR>
to forestall anyone else's interest in the system.<BR>
<BR>
There is a lot of interest in it.  I have made a<BR>
trade route map of Vilis subsector, and a trade<BR>
chart, that I will contribute.  The trade chart has<BR>
the BTN for all Vilis systems, like a mileage<BR>
chart: select the From world on the side, and the<BR>
To world across the top, see where they intersect:<BR>
bam! BTN!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:37:13 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs [OT]<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/8/00 8:16:29 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< OK,  can't resist that bait. >><BR>
<BR>
Sic'em baby! <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:40:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
(1)  What is a nuclear tipped detonation laser missile ?<BR>
<BR>
I recognize that it is a nuclear warhead that is set to detonate at a range of 15 k km, 30 k km, <BR>
or 60 k km.  But, what does the laser do ?  Is it an onboard LIDAR system that indicates <BR>
when the missile is within range ?<BR>
<BR>
(2)  Missile Fire Control Locks<BR>
<BR>
In the Mayday 4.1 rules a fire control lock is needed before a missile can be launched and it <BR>
is also needed at the time of detonation.  This seems to be ridiculous.  All that is needed is <BR>
for the target to be detected.  The missile only needs to be pointed in the general direction <BR>
and to get to within a radius of 30 k km--not a high degree of precision is needed.  We do not <BR>
need to achieve a fire control solution sufficient for a laser.<BR>
<BR>
(3)  Collateral Damage and Missiles<BR>
<BR>
A 500 kT det laser missile has a damage value of 113 and a range of 30 k km.  Would not a <BR>
detonation in a hex destroy all missiles (and even fighters) in that hex ?  Could not this <BR>
principle be used for defense against missile swarms ? Since det-laser missiles have a limited <BR>
range of 30 k km, then only a handful of missiles would be necessary to provide complete <BR>
protection.  These defensive missiles would be coordinated to meet the incoming missiles at <BR>
60 k km. (If you detonate them at 30 k km then you would be damaging your own ship).<BR>
<BR>
To overwhelm a ship's point defense lasers a missile swarm is needed.  But, with defensive <BR>
missiles a missile swarm is dead.  So, with a combination of defensive missiles and point <BR>
defense lasers a capital ship is invulnerable to missiles.<BR>
<BR>
(4)  Missile Guidance<BR>
<BR>
Controlled, Semi-Independent, Fully Independent.  Why would anybody go with a spacecraft <BR>
missile of other than Fully Independent ?  These rules seem to be more applicable to aircraft <BR>
and ground based missiles of early TL levels.<BR>
<BR>
(5)  Sensor/Electronics Damage<BR>
<BR>
With a 500 kT nuclear explosion at 30 k km (or even 60 k km) wouldn't the electromagnetic <BR>
radiation overload (destroy) the ship's sensors or at least reduce their sensitivity ?  I presume <BR>
the electronics are rad-hardened, but is this sufficient protection for a nuclear explosion ? <BR>
<BR>
Thanks. -- Bob<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:01:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 6:09 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
> >I'm not sure if there was ever a detailed treatment under CT, but<BR>
> in G:T it's pretty much a non-issue.<<BR>
> <BR>
> I never saw much of anything on in CT or MT.<BR>
> Either the Zhos never really attracted the Vargr enough or they just used<BR>
> telepathy to make them go away.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
Naahh! Vargr just prefer to chase Happy Fun Balls... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:58:36 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com> wrote,<BR>
> Wow!  Using UCP?  Wow!<BR>
<BR>
Honest, Rob, you knew about this - we discussed it some time last year,<BR>
when you were very eloquent and vocal concerning the use "High<BR>
Guard"-like magic numbers...<BR>
<BR>
[snip various responses/new suggestions]<BR>
<BR>
Good thinking about using the BITS task system rather than the T4 one.<BR>
<BR>
> I suggest cultural info be enumerated in the text block,<BR>
> but I'm really not sure of the best course to take.<BR>
<BR>
That's how it is with the entries I've written up so far.<BR>
<BR>
ANNOUNCEMENT:<BR>
I've talked with Andy Lilly about including some of the TML corps in the<BR>
book and he thought it was a great idea. However, everyone who gets a<BR>
credit gets a complementary copy and we don't want to be sending out<BR>
fifty copies, so I'm going to ask people to contact me off-list if they<BR>
want to write up their corporation, then we can decide what to do. Three<BR>
people will be getting a copy for their work on the UCP whether they<BR>
contribute a corporation or not (although I hope they will): Robert<BR>
Eaglestone, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance and Tim Reynolds*. Speaking of whom:<BR>
<BR>
APOLOGY:<BR>
My apologies to you, Tim. I had not realised your role in the ISBA and<BR>
the development of the UCP. I wasn't deliberately snubbing you by<BR>
referring to it as Andrew & Rob's!<BR>
<BR>
Must dash,<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
* Sorry, can't send a copy to everybody on the ISBA list...<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:40:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: MacGuffin (>Spoiler)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>   Michael Scott Rohan used a similar device to good effect in his<BR>
> (excellent, IMHO) SF novel "Run to the Stars"; the protagonist is<BR>
> fortunate to have an old-fashioned (for the 23rd C, anyway) chemical<BR>
> media film camera, which even hostile agencies are willing to concede<BR>
> is simply so much more difficult to fake conclusively that they have<BR>
> to accept the evidence presented via that media. (Roughly; buy the book)<BR>
<BR>
Pity it's not true *now*. It's not that hard to digitally record and<BR>
alter an image at a *higher* resolution than that of film, then<BR>
transfer the image to a new piece of film. The result is a fake that<BR>
could only be detected as such by means *other* than image analysis. <BR>
<BR>
Stuff like checking the film lot number against records...<BR>
<BR>
>   So you're sort of hand-waving that without a good technician (and <BR>
> this could be a dead art in 30 years, let alone 3000!) and a goodly<BR>
> chunk of time even with good (TL A?) gear, that you can't build up <BR>
> an image of 30-50++ million "pixels" that will confidently pass as<BR>
> not being a digitized artefact.<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it, current CGI gear can do it in a lot less than a<BR>
year. Especially if they don't have to generate anything from scratch.<BR>
Try hours. It'll just *cost*.<BR>
<BR>
But don't worry, you'll be able to do it at home in a few years.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:49:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Low-Tech Design Challenge<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> Well, as I noted, you'd likely be better off with a NERVA anyway.<BR>
>> Hybrid systems tend to waste a lot of space and mass on stuff that only<BR>
>> gets used part of the time.<BR>
><BR>
> As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), the principal<BR>
> difference between an atomic ramjet (such as the "Project Pluto" engine)<BR>
> and NERVA is that the former scoops up air and uses it as its reaction<BR>
> mass, while the latter uses hydrogen.<BR>
<BR>
That alone is a significant difference. The NERVA runs at 94 atm (1300<BR>
psi). With 8 tons/min of fuel flow. <BR>
<BR>
Also the difference between air and hydrogen is going to get significant.<BR>
<BR>
Basicly, even if you can use the same reactor and gas channels for<BR>
both, you need a way to *close* the "feed chamber" for running it as a<BR>
rocket, and have it as wide open for use as a ramjet. The machinery for<BR>
that switchover is going to take up a lot of space and mass.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm trying to design a shuttle<BR>
> intended for getting to and from the surfaces of Earth-like planets, *not*<BR>
> for making interplanetary voyages.<BR>
<BR>
It's still going to take significant *space* maneuverability (reasd<BR>
"delta V") to match orbits with the ship.<BR>
<BR>
> Given a hypersonic airframe, and an<BR>
> atomic ramjet engine, such a shuttle should be able to get to a<BR>
> respectable fraction of the escape velocity of an Earth-like planet<BR>
> without burning *any* fuel (aside from whatever is needed to reach the<BR>
> ramjet's minimum speed).  Granted, actually getting into orbit will<BR>
> require switching over to "rocket mode," but the savings in fuel tankage<BR>
> should be worth it.<BR>
<BR>
But the switchover requires equipment that may weigh more than the<BR>
extra fuel would.<BR>
<BR>
> An added bonus of the atomic ramjet is its ability to<BR>
> cruise through the atmosphere (albeit only at fairly high speeds) without<BR>
> limitations imposed by the availability of fuel.  This could be *very*<BR>
> useful for survey/exploration missions.  <BR>
<BR>
True enough.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2576<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:10:26 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:09:45 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA81061;<BR>
	Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:08:34 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:08:19 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA80953<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:08:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:08:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006082208.SAA80953@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2576<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2577</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/8/00 5:43:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2577<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
Re: Toasts in the Mess (was: Re: IN humour)<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Striker & FFS2<BR>
Re: New Traveller Posters Now In Stock!<BR>
Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
RE: Striker<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: New Traveller Posters Now In Stock!<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
rocket fuel<BR>
Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Survivors (Was: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.)<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:04:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ICBMs (was Strategic Bombing [OT])<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> And remember, China has not yet refused to use nuclear weapons in a first<BR>
> strike capacity, and they have also refused to guarantee their neighbours<BR>
> borders will not be violated, _and_ the current premier has been making some<BR>
> decidedly expansionistic noises. Mainly directed at Taiwan, but several<BR>
> analysts reckon if China is allowed to take Taiwan, it's leaders will assume<BR>
> that they have carte blanche to take any other territory they want.<BR>
<BR>
Which is one of the reasons India and Pakistan want nukes. Alas, the<BR>
*other* reason is to use them on each other...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:10:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Toasts in the Mess (was: Re: IN humour)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Meanwhile, a toast!<BR>
>><BR>
>> He either fears his fate too much<BR>
>> Or his desserts are too small<BR>
>> Who fears to put it to the touch<BR>
>> To win or lose it all!<BR>
>><BR>
>> (Montrose's toast)<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
><BR>
> Remember, Montrose got *hung*<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I have to confess that I only know of this from mention by a couple<BR>
of different authors of military SF. I have *no* idea *who* Montrose<BR>
is/was. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:13:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:54 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> One word.<BR>
><BR>
> Decentralization.<BR>
><BR>
> Known space is big. really, REALLY big. Bigger than you think. Big<BR>
> enough so that Core, The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim mightn as<BR>
> well be entirely separate universes. Did I mention that Known Space is<BR>
> really BIG??!!<BR>
><BR>
> War happens in the Spinward Marches? Well the Megacorps in the Spinward<BR>
> Marches go on war footing. The rest of the Imperium reads about it on<BR>
> TNS.<BR>
><BR>
> War happens in the Solomani Rim? Well the Megacorps in the Solomani Rim<BR>
> go on war footing. The rest of the Imperium reads about it on TNS.<BR>
><BR>
> Ol' Cleon the First knew what he was doing when he instituted a feudal<BR>
> control system in the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
> Central planning and control is utterly impossible when you have<BR>
> year-long lines of communication. The same goes, of course, for<BR>
> logistics and production. Maybe if the war is really big (which the<BR>
> Imperium did not see until the Rebellion), neighboring sectors might<BR>
> kick in some help, but there are no reserves or production shifted<BR>
> _anywhere_ in the Imperium along 6 month supply lines.<BR>
><BR>
> This is why Strephon had had to increase the Sector archdukes' power,<BR>
> and, not coincidentally, how the Imperium managed to shatter so easily<BR>
> during the Rebellion; the Sector is the largest practical unit of<BR>
> logistics, so nothing significant was broken when the sectors peeled<BR>
> off.<BR>
<BR>
Two Words<BR>
<BR>
Ziru Sirka<BR>
<BR>
Minor skirmishing starts on a remote border region. Local Governor reports<BR>
back "No need for concern, everything under control. We shall soon deal with<BR>
these raiders."<BR>
<BR>
Result<BR>
<BR>
Rule of Man<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:28:51 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Striker & FFS2<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<BR>
 >How do Striker generated vehicle compare to FFS2?  I'm working on an<BR>
 >application to generate and evaluate weapon systems, and need to select<BR>
 >a<BR>
 >system.  Suggestions?<BR>
 ><BR>
 >My area of expertise is really small arms.  I have designed many a gun<BR>
 >using<BR>
 >the CT rules and my own expertise with small arms.  I recently acquired<BR>
 >FFS2, and am doing a study to see how weapons created in that system<BR>
 >map<BR>
 >against actual and proposed weapon systems.<BR>
<BR>
Well, concerning weapon systems, FFS2 does add C-PAWs to the Striker <BR>
battlefield, as well as custom meson guns.  This alone (plus small arms) <BR>
makes it a good supplement for Striker I.<BR>
<BR>
Energy weapons seem to have been toned down in FFS2.  Both plasma & fusion<BR>
guns use the same damage rating formula.  I recommend hybridizing the two<BR>
schemes, or it has a big impact in combat vehicles conceived under Striker;<BR>
maybe multiply DV by 1.33 at short range, 1.5 at long range, & 2 at extreme <BR>
(assuming FFS2 DV is equivalent to Striker I PV) for fusion guns.  These <BR>
are taken from the Striker I design booklet.<BR>
<BR>
The CPR (and therefor MD) gun performance appears to have been uprated.<BR>
Penetration values of historical guns that I have seen are often lower than<BR>
their equivalents rated under FFS2.*  ISTR Striker being closer to actual <BR>
weapons (at least in penetration).  Projectile weights are also a bit high<BR>
for big guns in FFS2 (they may be good indications of projectile "bulk",<BR>
for storage purposes):<BR>
<BR>
50cm IJN (estimated)        FFS2 50cm <BR>
1875kg**            10000kg<BR>
<BR>
46cm IJN            FFS2 45cm<BR>
1460kg              5000kg<BR>
<BR>
40.64cm USN Mk 7        FFS2 40cm<BR>
1225kg              2500kg<BR>
<BR>
20.32cm USN Mk 15/16        FFS2 20cm<BR>
152kg               115kg<BR>
<BR>
The above RL projectiles are all KEAPER (which is missing from FFS), so<BR>
they should be a bit lighter, but for the high end of the scale, the <BR>
error is huge.  A good idea is to keep RL equipment stats in mind when<BR>
designing Striker/FFS gear (if practical -- e.g. low tech stuff).  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*Need to check my sources on this; the tests I'm thinking of may have been <BR>
fired at plates that FFS calls moderately sloped.  If this is so, FFS <BR>
appears to do a good job of estimating PV; the TL modifier shoots this to<BR>
hell, however.<BR>
<BR>
**Type 91 APC shells all have a weight/diameter^3 ratio of c. 0.54.<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com  (who likes both FFS & Striker; above is not meant as an<BR>
attack on either book(s)).<BR>
                                                                       <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:27:01 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Posters Now In Stock!<BR>
<BR>
At 22:52 08.06.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The new Traveller posters promoting the release of our GRIP Boxed edition <BR>
>for Traveller is now in-stock and available! These posters are basically <BR>
>free, we just ask that you pay shipping and handling ($2.50 to US <BR>
>destinations).<BR>
<BR>
How much would it be to Europe?<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:30:23 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
<BR>
At 05:42 08.06.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Alas, my software only allows kill files in *news*, not mail.<BR>
Try filtering the messages of people you want to ignore directly to the <BR>
Trash folder.<BR>
Most mail utilities have at least filter routines...<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:36:24 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
At 11:36 30.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>I'm still exhausted, since we had to stick around for the Bitch and Moan<BR>
>panel at the end of the con, so this is going to be a bit loose.<BR>
<BR>
(funny things snipped)<BR>
<BR>
You guys are so lucky. I wish i could have been there!<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:40:36 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
At 04:39 28.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>I would say give it a try, its a bargain at twice the price!<BR>
Hmm, i cant quite see myself gaming online. All the fun parts, like <BR>
spontaneous interaction between players are just that much more THERE when <BR>
playing FTF. The work of the GM is harder as well, having to plepare <BR>
EVERYthing beforehand, and the pace seems slower as well due to the <BR>
necessity of typing and reading instead of just talking.<BR>
<BR>
Whats the appeal?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:55:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>But are these good reading.  I am always on the prowl for <BR>
>GOOD military SF. Let me know, and it's heigh-ho, off to <BR>
>Amazon I go!<BR>
<BR>
Keith Laumer's Bolo stories are excellent.  I recommend<BR>
them highly.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:56:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
On 8 Jun 00, at 16:49, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sure, IF Sealand is a county.<BR>
> The question:  Is Sealand a country at all?<BR>
> Which court is asking the question is vital in answering the<BR>
> question.  When it becomes important, say when HavenCo<BR>
> starts hosting Kiddie Porn or UK military secrets, we'll<BR>
> just see how long it lasts.  International law is an abstract<BR>
> layer covering naked power, thinner than in the domestic<BR>
> law of most countries.  If the court asking the question<BR>
> decides it isn't a country,  bye bye.<BR>
<BR>
Sealand will last precisely long enough to start denying a reasonable sized <BR>
nation noticable tax revenue, then they will be shut down. Actually the UK <BR>
has a number of options at their disposal, they can send a gunboat with <BR>
half a dozen Marines, they can freeze the onshore assets of anybody <BR>
doing business there, they can cut off supplies, they can cut off <BR>
communication links.<BR>
<BR>
Translating this into Traveller, a microstate is set up on an unihabited world <BR>
just over the Imperial Border with the express purpose of circumventing <BR>
Imperial Law. The Imperium has decided that the microstate is a sufficent <BR>
annoyance to be dealt with and the Marines are on their way. Now some of <BR>
the records held in the microstate could prove highly damaging to an <BR>
Imperial Official (proof of acepting bribes maybe, or records of <BR>
embezzlement etc) and said official has got wind of the Impending action. <BR>
He/she hires the PCs to get and get the records out. The PCs have to get <BR>
their before the Marines, get the records, make sure there are no copies of <BR>
the records and then get away making it look like the records were never <BR>
there. Could be a fun senario.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:07:50 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 6:09 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
> <BR>
> > Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
> > >I'm not sure if there was ever a detailed treatment under CT, but<BR>
> > in G:T it's pretty much a non-issue.<<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I never saw much of anything on in CT or MT.<BR>
> > Either the Zhos never really attracted the Vargr enough or they just used<BR>
> > telepathy to make them go away.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Sam<BR>
> <BR>
> Naahh! Vargr just prefer to chase Happy Fun Balls... <g><BR>
<BR>
Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:07:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Stop into a game one night and see ;) As for extra work for the GM, not really, no more so than a tabletop game. I have run many an online adventure 'off-the-cuff' so to speak, with no preperation. The pace is a bit slower, but their is still plenty of spontaneous interaction between players and the GM. I find that many players are able to more easily 'get into character' playing online, but this is not a hard and fast rule of course. I know plenty of gamers I have played in FTF games that had no problem getting into character, but I have also seen plenty of other that do have a bit of trouble. We truly have a ball during our online Traveller sessions!<BR>
<BR>
GRIP is not meant to replace FTF gaming by any means. GRIP is designed to let you play when you don't have a local group to game with, or say a game was cancelled, etc. Plus it gives you a chance to game with players from around the world! Not everyone has a good group to game with locally, I now am able to once again game with the same group I started playing Traveller with over 15 years ago. We moved away, lost touch, etc. Now we are back to our weekly Traveller game!<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********<BR>
<BR>
On 6/9/2000 at 12:40 AM Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 04:39 28.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>>I would say give it a try, its a bargain at twice the price!<BR>
>Hmm, i cant quite see myself gaming online. All the fun parts, like <BR>
>spontaneous interaction between players are just that much more THERE when <BR>
>playing FTF. The work of the GM is harder as well, having to plepare <BR>
>EVERYthing beforehand, and the pace seems slower as well due to the <BR>
>necessity of typing and reading instead of just talking.<BR>
><BR>
>Whats the appeal?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>---<BR>
>Volker A. Greimann<BR>
>greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:12:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Posters Now In Stock!<BR>
<BR>
>On 6/9/2000 at 12:27 AM Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>The new Traveller posters promoting the release of our GRIP Boxed edition <BR>
>>for Traveller is now in-stock and available! These posters are basically <BR>
>>free, we just ask that you pay shipping and handling ($2.50 to US <BR>
>>destinations).<BR>
><BR>
>How much would it be to Europe?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Feh, currently we have shipping to Europe at $13.20 (which for the posters is WAY too high), but I am working on restructuring the shipping calculations for things that weigh so much less like the posters. I should have a revised shipping calculator online this weekend.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:23:29 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  the pace seems slower as well due to the<BR>
> necessity of typing and reading instead of just talking.<BR>
<BR>
Use Roger Wilco and talk to them instead.  Also free.<BR>
</shameless plug><BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:30:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
>Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>  the pace seems slower as well due to the<BR>
>> necessity of typing and reading instead of just talking.<BR>
><BR>
>Use Roger Wilco and talk to them instead.  Also free.<BR>
></shameless plug><BR>
><BR>
>bloo<BR>
<BR>
Hehe GRIP has a license for Roger Wilco (included on the CD), and designed to automate connections using it ;)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rogerwilco.com<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 16:30:51 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
> (1)  What is a nuclear tipped detonation laser missile ?<BR>
> <BR>
> I recognize that it is a nuclear warhead that is set to detonate at a range of 15 k km, 30 k km, <BR>
> or 60 k km.  But, what does the laser do ?  Is it an onboard LIDAR system that indicates <BR>
> when the missile is within range ?<BR>
<BR>
A nuclear detonation laser uses the energy of a nuclear warhead to power a <BR>
laser. IIRC, it's a bundle of crystalline rods wrapped around the warhead; <BR>
the rods point at the target and the nuke goes off, and a sizable fraction <BR>
of the warhead energy goes into the beam even as the whole thing is being <BR>
vaporized. <BR>
<BR>
The idea is that because of point defense and maneuvering issues, it's hard<BR>
to get a nuke warhead close enough to the target to do direct damage, so <BR>
instead you're putting a powerful one-shot laser into the field.  <BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> (2)  Missile Fire Control Locks<BR>
> <BR>
> In the Mayday 4.1 rules a fire control lock is needed before a missile can be launched and it <BR>
> is also needed at the time of detonation.  This seems to be ridiculous.  All that is needed is <BR>
> for the target to be detected.  The missile only needs to be pointed in the general direction <BR>
> and to get to within a radius of 30 k km--not a high degree of precision is needed.  We do not <BR>
> need to achieve a fire control solution sufficient for a laser.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know from Mayday 4.1; does it allow for the *missile* to have the <BR>
lock at the time of detonation? *Something* has to be pointing the laser in <BR>
the right direction when the bomb goes off...<BR>
<BR>
> (3)  Collateral Damage and Missiles<BR>
> <BR>
> A 500 kT det laser missile has a damage value of 113 and a range of 30 k km.  Would not a <BR>
> detonation in a hex destroy all missiles (and even fighters) in that hex ?<BR>
<BR>
As noted above, that's not a nuke that does damage from the primary explosion <BR>
at 30k km (consider that the US is only ~5k km across - a megaton nuke in <BR>
Los Angeles won't do any physical damage in NYC). It's generating a beam from<BR>
the <BR>
detonation to the target.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, for simplicity, the answer to all collateral damage questions is: no, <BR>
space is big, hexes are big.<BR>
<BR>
> (4)  Missile Guidance<BR>
> <BR>
> Controlled, Semi-Independent, Fully Independent.  Why would anybody go with a spacecraft <BR>
> missile of other than Fully Independent ?  These rules seem to be more applicable to aircraft <BR>
> and ground based missiles of early TL levels.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know what the Mayday rules say, but a controlled missile is harder<BR>
to spoof than an independent one, in general. <BR>
<BR>
> (5)  Sensor/Electronics Damage<BR>
> <BR>
> With a 500 kT nuclear explosion at 30 k km (or even 60 k km) wouldn't the electromagnetic <BR>
> radiation overload (destroy) the ship's sensors or at least reduce their sensitivity ?  I presume <BR>
> the electronics are rad-hardened, but is this sufficient protection for a nuclear explosion ? <BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure that 1 k km (1000 km) would be sufficient to safely naked-eye <BR>
a 500kT nuke. <BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 23:47:53 GMT<BR>
From: "Erick ..." <siniypiva@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: rocket fuel<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the exhaust temp was 2227 C, compared with 2727 for then current<BR>
chemical rockets (I assume that was the engines in the first stage of<BR>
the Saturn V).<BR>
<BR>
But it looks like there was room to raise that up to around 3000 C. But<BR>
that might not leave enough safety margin given that the reactor core<BR>
can't be allowed to reach 3600 C (at which point the graphite starts<BR>
sublimating), given that the fuel pellets would just about have to be<BR>
hotter than the gases passing thru the reactor.<BR>
<BR>
- - --<BR>
<BR>
  What about mercury? would it be a good fuel? Other than its being <BR>
posionous what other drawbacks would it have? Would it have good isp?<BR>
<BR>
  erick<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:40:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> (1)  What is a nuclear tipped detonation laser missile ?<BR>
><BR>
> I recognize that it is a nuclear warhead that is set to detonate at a<BR>
> range of 15 k km, 30 k km, or 60 k km.  But, what does the laser do ?<BR>
> Is it an onboard LIDAR system that indicates when the missile is<BR>
> within range ?<BR>
<BR>
No, the laser is a bunch of oneshot x-ray lasers *pumped* by the<BR>
nuclear explosion (ie the x-rays produced by the blast provide the<BR>
excitation energy required for the laser rods to "lase"). The rods get<BR>
destroyed as the *physical* shock front from the bomb reaches them. But<BR>
they "fired" *long* before that happens (at least at the microsecond<BR>
timescale that matters for this sort of thing)<BR>
<BR>
> (2)  Missile Fire Control Locks<BR>
><BR>
> In the Mayday 4.1 rules a fire control lock is needed before a<BR>
> missile can be launched and it is also needed at the time of<BR>
> detonation.  This seems to be ridiculous.  All that is needed is for<BR>
> the target to be detected.  The missile only needs to be pointed in<BR>
> the general direction and to get to within a radius of 30 k km--not a<BR>
> high degree of precision is needed.  We do not need to achieve a fire<BR>
> control solution sufficient for a laser.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you *do*. Because that's *exactly* what the missile is doing.<BR>
Firing a spread of *lasers* at the target. <BR>
<BR>
And 30k km is .1 light seconds. So there's a .2 second "lag" between<BR>
where the target was when the "current" sensor reading is taken, and<BR>
where it will be when the laser pulse arrives. <BR>
<BR>
> (3)  Collateral Damage and Missiles<BR>
><BR>
> A 500 kT det laser missile has a damage value of 113 and a range of<BR>
> 30 k km.  Would not a detonation in a hex destroy all missiles (and<BR>
> even fighters) in that hex ?<BR>
<BR>
Nope, because that damage figure is for the *laser pulses* it generates<BR>
(only one of which is going to hit, if any at all do). It's *not* blast<BR>
damage. <BR>
<BR>
Consider that we've set off *much* bigger nukes here on earth without<BR>
doing damage at more than a mile or so away.<BR>
<BR>
However, in space, the *radiation* (x-rays) from a blast are deadly at<BR>
great distances. In air they are absorbed in a few meters of travel<BR>
through the air and *create* the blast wave and fireball.<BR>
<BR>
*Unshielded* personnel are at risk thousands of km from a 500 kT blast.<BR>
But the average ship's hull is more than enough shielding (they *have*<BR>
to be heavily shielded or solar flares would be a major danger).<BR>
<BR>
The guys working outside on the hull to repair that damaged sensor<BR>
array could be in big trouble. And the very least, they'll need<BR>
treatmenbt for high doses of radaition after the battle.<BR>
<BR>
> (4)  Missile Guidance<BR>
><BR>
> Controlled, Semi-Independent, Fully Independent.  Why would anybody<BR>
> go with a spacecraft missile of other than Fully Independent ?  These<BR>
> rules seem to be more applicable to aircraft and ground based<BR>
> missiles of early TL levels.<BR>
<BR>
*Cost*. Controlled are cheap. Semi-independent are expensive. Fully<BR>
independent are *hideously* expensive.<BR>
<BR>
> (5)  Sensor/Electronics Damage<BR>
><BR>
> With a 500 kT nuclear explosion at 30 k km (or even 60 k km) wouldn't<BR>
> the electromagnetic radiation overload (destroy) the ship's sensors<BR>
> or at least reduce their sensitivity ?  I presume the electronics are<BR>
> rad-hardened, but is this sufficient protection for a nuclear explosion?<BR>
<BR>
30k km is 18 thousand miles. That's a *long* way off. In the absence of<BR>
an atmosphere (including the ionisphere), EM pulse is *greatly*<BR>
reduced. It's still a danger, but it *does* obey the inverse square<BR>
law. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:04:39 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hehe GRIP has a license for Roger Wilco (included on the CD), and designed to automate connections using it ;)<BR>
<BR>
Sweet!  Dave hadn't told me.<BR>
<BR>
bloo@rogerwilco.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:12:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
>On 6/8/2000 at 8:04 PM Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Hehe GRIP has a license for Roger Wilco (included on the CD), and designed to automate connections using it ;)<BR>
><BR>
>Sweet!  Dave hadn't told me.<BR>
><BR>
>bloo@rogerwilco.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
HAHAHAHAHAHA! you'll be happy to know it even mentions the fact on the boxes and in the manuals ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 02:18:28 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Survivors (Was: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> We were watching that awful new show 'Survivors' the other day<BR>
<BR>
We've had the show here in Sweden for quite a while (1.5 years or<BR>
something like that) now... and that is certainly *not* an advantage of<BR>
living in Sweden  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:24:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
On 9 Jun 00, at 10:56, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Translating this into Traveller, a microstate is set up on an unihabited world<BR>
> just over the Imperial Border with the express purpose of circumventing<BR>
> Imperial Law. The Imperium has decided that the microstate is a sufficent<BR>
> annoyance to be dealt with and the Marines are on their way. Now some of the<BR>
> records held in the microstate could prove highly damaging to an Imperial<BR>
> Official (proof of acepting bribes maybe, or records of embezzlement etc) and<BR>
> said official has got wind of the Impending action. He/she hires the PCs to<BR>
> get and get the records out. The PCs have to get their before the Marines, get<BR>
> the records, make sure there are no copies of the records and then get away<BR>
> making it look like the records were never there. Could be a fun senario.<BR>
<BR>
An ever better idea just occured to me. This senario occurs near the border <BR>
between the Imperium and Solomani Confederation. The PCs are invited to <BR>
a remote hunting lodge for a meeting with an unnammed factor. They arrive <BR>
at the lodge (after some tredidation and normal paranoia) and are met by <BR>
several rather fit men dressed in smart but casual civilian clothes. After a <BR>
through search for concealed recording devices (they are allowed to keep <BR>
any sidearms), they are ushered into a conferene room. There (much to <BR>
their suprise) they find seated at the table a senior co-ordinator from <BR>
SolSec and a high official of the Imperial Ministry of Justice.<BR>
<BR>
A group has set up a datahaven on a world between the Confederation and <BR>
the Imperium. Naturally this is a direct affront to the soverignty of both <BR>
parties and can not be tolerated. However, neither party can allow the other <BR>
to act unilaterally and a joint operation is out of the question; therefore a <BR>
third party proxy is required. One that both sides can officially disavow any <BR>
knowledge of or involvement with. But as a deterant to other attempts, it <BR>
must also be abundently clear that both sides have been involved.<BR>
<BR>
A further complication is that both the Confederation and Imperium believe <BR>
that the Datahaven has moles in their bureacracy supplying them with <BR>
information. Also both want copies of the data being stored in the haven (if <BR>
only to uncover the moles). How the PCs achieve their aims is up to them, <BR>
but success will bring great rewards.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:59:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Numerals:  The Vilani would probably have a 'formal' numbers system. That<BR>
> is, arabic-like.  If they use base 10 (and I'm pretty sure they do) then<BR>
> going with 10 symbols like arabic would be fine, IMO.  For the look of<BR>
> them I suggest embellishments of:<BR>
> 0.  inverted-U.  Originally an empty bowl, goes with Vilani food<BR>
> obsession.<BR>
> 1-3  single, double and triple dots, placed vertically.<BR>
> 4. A cross or '+' symbol.<BR>
> 5. A U with a closed top, a "full bowl"<BR>
> 6-8: As 5, but with single, double or triple horizontal dots on top.<BR>
> 9: A circle with horizontal bar through the middle (like theta).<BR>
<BR>
Your suggestions are rather close to Mayan numerals. They used base 20,<BR>
and the numerals went like this:<BR>
<BR>
0: conch shell<BR>
	 ()<BR>
<BR>
1. single dot<BR>
	  *<BR>
<BR>
2. double dot<BR>
	 **<BR>
<BR>
3. triple dot<BR>
	 ***<BR>
<BR>
4. quadruple dot<BR>
	****<BR>
<BR>
5. single bar<BR>
	----<BR>
<BR>
6. single bar with dot<BR>
	  *<BR>
	----<BR>
<BR>
7. single bar with double dot<BR>
	 **<BR>
	----<BR>
<BR>
8. single bar with triple dot<BR>
	 ***<BR>
	----<BR>
<BR>
9. single bar with quadruple dot<BR>
	****<BR>
	----<BR>
<BR>
10. double bar<BR>
	----<BR>
	----<BR>
<BR>
11. double bar with single dot<BR>
	  *<BR>
	----<BR>
	----<BR>
<BR>
I trust you can deduce the rest?<BR>
<BR>
And yes, it's a positional system. So 19538 would be:<BR>
<BR>
			  *	***<BR>
		***	----	----<BR>
	**	----	----	----<BR>
			----	----<BR>
<BR>
	2x20^3	8x20^2	16x20	18<BR>
	16000	3200	320	18<BR>
<BR>
Nice and sensible. The Mayans also had the nice habit of making the<BR>
gylphs all occupy the same sized square in inscriptions. They when they<BR>
"captioned" carvings they'd work the gylphs into the pictures.<BR>
<BR>
There is a Mayan font that has the numerals and other calendrical<BR>
symbols (they had a rather complex calendar, with more than just<BR>
months/days) available out on the net.<BR>
<BR>
> Tonality:  I'm not sure, but I don't think any tonal languages on earth<BR>
> use phonetic-type alphabets, so this is a thoughie.  I think assuming<BR>
> context fills in works fine.<BR>
<BR>
And it opens up a whole new range of "puns" by using written phraes<BR>
containing words that makes sense with one tonality, and make something<BR>
funny (as opposed to pure nonsense) with another. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2577<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:43:07 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:42:28 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA87945;<BR>
	Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:41:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:41:07 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA87885<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:41:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:41:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006090041.UAA87885@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2577<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2578</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/8/00 9:24:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2578<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
RE: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Hologram/Candle Photo<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Milbots<BR>
[Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
RE: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
RE: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Re: rocket fuel<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:24:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: samwise1 wants to play (Re: It's so hard to say goodbye (was Re: Strategic Bombing (OT) )  )<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:42 08.06.00, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Alas, my software only allows kill files in *news*, not mail.<BR>
> Try filtering the messages of people you want to ignore directly to the <BR>
> Trash folder.<BR>
<BR>
> Most mail utilities have at least filter routines...<BR>
<BR>
Not this one. It's a DOS program written in turbo Pascal. Some day I'll<BR>
get around to modifying the source (thankfully it *came* with source!).<BR>
<BR>
Currently I use batch files and grep. Which gets kinda ugly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:47:31 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
said:<BR>
<BR>
>Completely off-topic, but you lot are probably the best people to understand<BR>
>how this feels.<BR>
<BR>
>I got my first story published in the New Zealand National Science Fiction<BR>
>convention book over the weekend , along with an "Honourable Mention" in the<BR>
>short story competition.<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations! I know just how it feels.<BR>
<BR>
I had to -marry- an editor to get published.<BR>
<BR>
It's a pity we couldn't make it to the NZ natcon this year, or we would've met.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:57:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>     Doug Berry pulls out his Grldor Technolgies Penguin Cannon & yells<BR>
out<BR>
>> "There can be only one."<BR>
><BR>
>We were watching that awful new show 'Survivors' the other day, and when<BR>
>one person pulled out a small machete to whack at something my wife and<BR>
>I turned to each other simultaneously and said, (in bad accents) "There<BR>
>can be only one!" all right it wasn't rehearsed but after 15 years you<BR>
>tend to think of the same jokes a lot ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, my wife & I have been married for less than a year, & everytime we<BR>
see a sword fight,<BR>
<BR>
>Since the whole thing is a 'vote someone out till there's single<BR>
>survivor', wonder how they're gonna break that last 1:1 tie ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    By the usual argument Phoenix & Tucson has.  Of course you do know that<BR>
Phoenix always wins.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:56:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
Detonation lasers are the nuclear-pumped x-ray lasers beloved of<BR>
the 1980s SDI fantasy. A nuclear explosion creates a lot of energy<BR>
in close proximity to specially-designed lasing rods; those rods soak<BR>
up a small amount of that energy and then fire it off as an x-ray laser<BR>
beam in the nanoseconds before they vaporize. It's a way to get a<BR>
really powerful cluster of x-ray laser beams, albeit short ranged.<BR>
<BR>
That answers many of your other questions - they don't do collateral<BR>
damage because it's the x-ray laser pulse that hits the target, not<BR>
the explosion.<BR>
<BR>
That's also why someone needs a target lock - good enough to hit<BR>
the target with the laser rod.<BR>
<BR>
Controlled/SIM/FIM: cost would be one reason; and the need for a<BR>
fairly big onboard sensor for a missile to work in FIM mode.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think I've seen Mayday 4.1 - could someone point me at it?<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:57:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that is a fair analogy tho - the Ziru Sirka was not the 3I -<BR>
it had it's own host of problems - and I doubt that the terrains were enough<BR>
to crush it - it was already rotten at the core. If, say, the terrains had<BR>
run into the young Ziru Sirka - say, 900 to 1200 years into it's expansion,<BR>
we would all now be speaking Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
The 3I _has_ to decentralize - you cannot use a crust defense and shift<BR>
reserves around when it takes you a better portion of a year to move<BR>
anything from front to front. Each sector has to be responsible for it's own<BR>
naval assets. If you think about it - the FW's were along a 114pc front<BR>
(from the Sword Worlds to Corridor) with the industrial might of Reft,<BR>
Spinward and Deneb sectors - that's a _lot_ of class A starports and naval<BR>
bases and scout bases, oh my...<BR>
<BR>
Ahem.<BR>
<BR>
Anyways - Corridor fleet _might_ be pulled in if it was really desperate -<BR>
and then you would have to shift fleets over from the Core to cover. Let me<BR>
say that again - you would have to _shift_ fleets. i.e. - Corridor needs to<BR>
be defended (can't have poochie running rampant there) - let's move 1/2 of<BR>
the Vland fleet over (to augment the system defenses and reserve fleet that<BR>
stayed behind), and, say 1/2 of the Core fleet to cover Vland. End of story.<BR>
If you need it, you can slowly keep moving fleets to the battle - after they<BR>
are produced in the core of the Imperium - have new builds on the spinward<BR>
1/2 make their way Vland as a staging area - the other 1/2 spreads it's<BR>
ships between the other 1/2 of the 3I and it's side - a small reduction in<BR>
forces - but what kept them out yesterday is still there today - and there<BR>
are no need for 3I wide re-positioning and enemies across the way to smell<BR>
weakness.<BR>
<BR>
And the fleets just keep coming and coming and coming - it a really bad<BR>
time, the Zho's might take the marches - but the fleets keep coming and<BR>
coming and coming - Massive production in the core will eventually prevail.<BR>
<BR>
To sum up - Existing fleets are there to give us time to start producing the<BR>
fleets that will win the war - and the Zho's know this. The Zho's often quit<BR>
when we get our production into gear - they know..<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.. mebby the hivers told the zho's to start the 3FW so that the 3I would<BR>
be in high production mode so that when the Sollys attacked we would be able<BR>
to whoop it up on them...<BR>
<BR>
egads.. it _must_ be a conspiracy - the hivers probably used the dryone to<BR>
transmit the directives to the zho's..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Matthew Bond<BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:13 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:54 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> One word.<BR>
><BR>
> Decentralization.<BR>
><BR>
> Known space is big. really, REALLY big. Bigger than you think. Big<BR>
> enough so that Core, The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim mightn as<BR>
> well be entirely separate universes. Did I mention that Known Space is<BR>
> really BIG??!!<BR>
><BR>
> War happens in the Spinward Marches? Well the Megacorps in the Spinward<BR>
> Marches go on war footing. The rest of the Imperium reads about it on<BR>
> TNS.<BR>
><BR>
> War happens in the Solomani Rim? Well the Megacorps in the Solomani Rim<BR>
> go on war footing. The rest of the Imperium reads about it on TNS.<BR>
><BR>
> Ol' Cleon the First knew what he was doing when he instituted a feudal<BR>
> control system in the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
> Central planning and control is utterly impossible when you have<BR>
> year-long lines of communication. The same goes, of course, for<BR>
> logistics and production. Maybe if the war is really big (which the<BR>
> Imperium did not see until the Rebellion), neighboring sectors might<BR>
> kick in some help, but there are no reserves or production shifted<BR>
> _anywhere_ in the Imperium along 6 month supply lines.<BR>
><BR>
> This is why Strephon had had to increase the Sector archdukes' power,<BR>
> and, not coincidentally, how the Imperium managed to shatter so easily<BR>
> during the Rebellion; the Sector is the largest practical unit of<BR>
> logistics, so nothing significant was broken when the sectors peeled<BR>
> off.<BR>
<BR>
Two Words<BR>
<BR>
Ziru Sirka<BR>
<BR>
Minor skirmishing starts on a remote border region. Local Governor reports<BR>
back "No need for concern, everything under control. We shall soon deal with<BR>
these raiders."<BR>
<BR>
Result<BR>
<BR>
Rule of Man<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:34:56 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Hologram/Candle Photo<BR>
<BR>
In mail Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>> I can't intuit how your eye could assemble an image that a<BR>
>>> camera of similar lens could not.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I have seen pictures of candles without a flame that had flame when they<BR>
>> were taken... similar thing maybe??<BR>
><BR>
> That's a matter of contrast and especially of the fact that the flash<BR>
> washed out the candle flame because it was so dim.<BR>
><BR>
> But you *can* take a photo of a candle flame if you use the right film.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I to have seen pictures of candles lit and aflame, but what I was trying to<BR>
point out is that it isn't always a gimme.  I know a professional<BR>
photographa who tells me that sometimes with certain conditions, there is no<BR>
way to get a flame to appear on some candle photos because of how cameras<BR>
and film work (I'm not a photographa, so - whatever that means?).  So, I'm<BR>
assuming that it's also posible that depending upon the conditions, or the<BR>
equipment, or the skill of the photographer, or even a combination of all of<BR>
them, that just because it's seen in the viewfinder, doesn't mean it will<BR>
automatically come out in the print - is that a safe assumption for a<BR>
holograph also (an honest question)?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:18:50 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
...<BR>
>The imperium has to be prepared for a two (or even three) front war at any<BR>
>time, for the simple reason that it takes 6-8 weeks for a J-6 courier to cross<BR>
>a sector, and 15-20 weeks for a J-4 fleet to cross a sector.  Central reserves<BR>
>aren't going to reach a war in the spinward marches or solomani rim in less<BR>
>than around 2 years after the start of hostilities, so local forces had <BR>
>better be able to hold off attackers for at least that long.<BR>
<BR>
  That shoots to hell the theory that the 3I is prosperous because<BR>
its interior lines and advantageous size allow it to keep per capita<BR>
expenditures low; the implication is that they somehow aren't really<BR>
affected by what on a single (balkanized) world would be seen as<BR>
crippling military expenditures.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:18:55 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Milbots<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Milbots<BR>
...<BR>
>extreme instability in the United States.  Afghanistan<BR>
>drained the Soviet economy; did it lead to the rise of<BR>
>Gorbachev and the decline of the Soviet era?   Iran and<BR>
>Iraq wasted a generation of young men (and boys) in eight<BR>
>years, during which they largely stopped their economic<BR>
>clocks -- which may have been an objective of their rulers,<BR>
>but that's another story.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, both Afghanistan and the Gulf War (at least for Iran) were<BR>
nowhere near as high-intensity as we might think (although the USSR<BR>
had far less to spare after their _other_ crippling costs/issues).<BR>
<BR>
  The Iran/Iraq war is perhaps a good model for some types of wars<BR>
in the 3I - Iraq running a total war effort but using imported arms,<BR>
and Iran keeping its economy ticking over while using other assets<BR>
(e.g., Revolutionary Guards) somewhat profligately.<BR>
<BR>
  External powers only intervene when their interests (trade, risk of<BR>
conflict expanding) are threatened enough, even if ostensible "rules<BR>
of warfare" are violated by their client states doing the fighting.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 22:29:49 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
While re-reading Robert A. Wilson's _Masks of the Illuminati_, I read<BR>
that Aleister Crowley, having been knighted by Don Carlos, considered<BR>
himself an actual nobleman.  Crowley (according to this fictional book)<BR>
believed that Don Carlos was the rightful monarch of Britain, and that<BR>
Queen Victoria was a pretender.  Thus, his Carlist knighthood was, in<BR>
his eyes, legitimate.<BR>
<BR>
This brings me to my ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
Given the chaos of the Third Imperium's early history (emperors<BR>
abdicating, numerous admirals vying for the crown, etc.), are there any<BR>
remaining semi-legitimate pretenders to the Crown?  If so, how wide is<BR>
their support, and what hope have they of gaining the purple?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:40:08 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: RE: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
Matt gives me this info<BR>
<BR>
> The 3I _has_ to decentralize - you cannot use a crust defense and shift<BR>
> reserves around when it takes you a better portion of a year to move<BR>
> anything from front to front. Each sector has to be responsible for it's <BR>
own<BR>
> naval assets. If you think about it - the FW's were along a 114pc front<BR>
> (from the Sword Worlds to Corridor) with the industrial might of Reft,<BR>
> Spinward and Deneb sectors - that's a _lot_ of class A starports and <BR>
naval<BR>
> bases and scout bases, oh my...<BR>
> <BR>
> Ahem.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anyways - Corridor fleet _might_ be pulled in if it was really desperate -<BR>
> and then you would have to shift fleets over from the Core to cover. <BR>
Let me<BR>
> say that again - you would have to _shift_ fleets. i.e. - Corridor needs to<BR>
> be defended (can't have poochie running rampant there) - let's move <BR>
1/2 of<BR>
> the Vland fleet over (to augment the system defenses and reserve fleet <BR>
that<BR>
> stayed behind), and, say 1/2 of the Core fleet to cover Vland. End of <BR>
story.<BR>
> If you need it, you can slowly keep moving fleets to the battle - after <BR>
they<BR>
> are produced in the core of the Imperium - have new builds on the <BR>
spinward<BR>
> 1/2 make their way Vland as a staging area - the other 1/2 spreads it's<BR>
> ships between the other 1/2 of the 3I and it's side - a small reduction in<BR>
> forces - but what kept them out yesterday is still there today - and there<BR>
> are no need for 3I wide re-positioning and enemies across the way to <BR>
smell<BR>
> weakness.<BR>
> <BR>
> And the fleets just keep coming and coming and coming - it a really bad<BR>
> time, the Zho's might take the marches - but the fleets keep coming and<BR>
> coming and coming - Massive production in the core will eventually <BR>
prevail.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ok I buy the 3I decentralized theory.  It works very good when one <BR>
compares it with British colonial strategy.  Use locale force/resources to <BR>
fight the locale war then move forces to back it up if needed.  Also <BR>
remember the more the opposition advances the closer to the core/capital <BR>
forces they come so time and distances shrinks.  <BR>
<BR>
This brings me to the most important advantage the 3I have when it <BR>
comes to fighting a defense war on multiple boarders.  Interior line of <BR>
defense, just look at the Atlas maps, and you see it.<BR>
<BR>
The 3I, centered between all its enemies, has the ability to use interior <BR>
lines to meet multiple threats.  This is not to say they can face <BR>
everybody, but two is relatively easy, three would stretch and four <BR>
would lead to a collapse.<BR>
<BR>
So as long as the 3I stays on the defense, it can hold off.  The key a <BR>
course is to know when to switch to the offensive.<BR>
<BR>
This comes from Von Leebs    Defense<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:36:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Hope - not much IMTU :)<BR>
<BR>
But it would make for an instresting session or two - is the old guy really<BR>
a pretender - or just a crackpot - and why do all the guys in black spandex<BR>
keep showing up when he is around?<BR>
<BR>
Keep em guessing Muahahaha<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Black ICE<BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:30 PM<BR>
To: TML<BR>
Subject: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
While re-reading Robert A. Wilson's _Masks of the Illuminati_, I read<BR>
that Aleister Crowley, having been knighted by Don Carlos, considered<BR>
himself an actual nobleman.  Crowley (according to this fictional book)<BR>
believed that Don Carlos was the rightful monarch of Britain, and that<BR>
Queen Victoria was a pretender.  Thus, his Carlist knighthood was, in<BR>
his eyes, legitimate.<BR>
<BR>
This brings me to my ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
Given the chaos of the Third Imperium's early history (emperors<BR>
abdicating, numerous admirals vying for the crown, etc.), are there any<BR>
remaining semi-legitimate pretenders to the Crown?  If so, how wide is<BR>
their support, and what hope have they of gaining the purple?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:02:51 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
"samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> sez:<BR>
<BR>
> Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
> >I'm not sure if there was ever a detailed treatment under CT, but<BR>
> in G:T it's pretty much a non-issue.<<BR>
> <BR>
> I never saw much of anything on in CT or MT.<BR>
> Either the Zhos never really attracted the Vargr enough or they just used<BR>
> telepathy to make them go away.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
 Never read Alien Realms or the old Vargr Module, I gather. Your statement <BR>
needs to replace that "or" with an "and". The Zhodani are one of the two <BR>
Powers who commonly practice societal manipulation. They have their cultural <BR>
fingers into every Vargr polity within 6-10 jumps of their border (and <BR>
probably further). Some have rebeled against such contact, others fall in <BR>
line. As a result, the buffer zone along the Consulate border is about as <BR>
stable as Vargr get. Polities come and go, but the Zhodani have had such a <BR>
long time in the region (The old vargr module places them well out into <BR>
Gvurrdon two THOUSAND years before the Imperium fell...) that anyone who <BR>
doubts their influence on the Gvurddon Vargr isn't paying attention to their <BR>
political analysts.  There is a reason the Vargr have been part of most of <BR>
the Frontier Wars on the ZHODANI side all these years.<BR>
<BR>
 Thus Sam's answer is now correct: The Vargr no longer find the Zhodani <BR>
interesting enough to raid except as individual pirates; something the Zho <BR>
can't stop. Any larger effort would be detected, resulting in the Leader <BR>
loosing his charisma and his head (or his freedom, which could be worse). I <BR>
suspect that the Zhodani presence and influence is the direct cause of the <BR>
Vargr heading Coreward in such numbers - the Vargr rebellious streak is being <BR>
channeled away from piracy and toward exploration and colonization.<BR>
<BR>
 That's enough headspace work for one night...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:38:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rocket fuel<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Yeah, the exhaust temp was 2227 C, compared with 2727 for then current<BR>
> chemical rockets (I assume that was the engines in the first stage of<BR>
> the Saturn V).<BR>
><BR>
> But it looks like there was room to raise that up to around 3000 C. But<BR>
> that might not leave enough safety margin given that the reactor core<BR>
> can't be allowed to reach 3600 C (at which point the graphite starts<BR>
> sublimating), given that the fuel pellets would just about have to be<BR>
> hotter than the gases passing thru the reactor.<BR>
><BR>
> - --<BR>
><BR>
>   What about mercury? would it be a good fuel? Other than its being <BR>
> posionous what other drawbacks would it have? Would it have good isp?<BR>
<BR>
It'd have a *lousy* Isp. <BR>
<BR>
You see, for a given temp at the exhaust, the *velocity* of the exhaust<BR>
is higher the lower the molecular weight of the exhaust. <BR>
<BR>
Mercury atoms weigh 200.6 amu. H2O (the exhaust of a hydrogen/oxygen<BR>
rocket) weighs 18 amu. Hydrogen (the exhaust of a NERVA) weighs *2* amu.<BR>
<BR>
So for the *same* energy input, you get an exhaust that's *100* times<BR>
slower if you use mercury instead of hydrogen. <BR>
<BR>
If we could reach temps where the exhaust was monatomic hydrogen<BR>
instead of molecular hydrogen, we'd *double* the performance. Heck, if<BR>
we could somehow find a way to either stably store monatomic hydrogen,<BR>
or to create it and keep it stable until it was injected into the<BR>
reaction chamber, you'd have a *chemical* rocket with a performance<BR>
near that of a NERVA system. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:47:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 8 Jun 00, at 16:49, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Sure, IF Sealand is a county.<BR>
>> The question:  Is Sealand a country at all?<BR>
>> Which court is asking the question is vital in answering the<BR>
>> question.  When it becomes important, say when HavenCo<BR>
>> starts hosting Kiddie Porn or UK military secrets, we'll<BR>
>> just see how long it lasts.  International law is an abstract<BR>
>> layer covering naked power, thinner than in the domestic<BR>
>> law of most countries.  If the court asking the question<BR>
>> decides it isn't a country,  bye bye.<BR>
><BR>
> Sealand will last precisely long enough to start denying a reasonable sized <BR>
> nation noticable tax revenue, then they will be shut down. Actually the UK <BR>
> has a number of options at their disposal, they can send a gunboat with <BR>
> half a dozen Marines, they can freeze the onshore assets of anybody <BR>
> doing business there, they can cut off supplies, they can cut off <BR>
> communication links.<BR>
<BR>
All of those *except* freezing assets are *acts of war*. And could be<BR>
enough to generate some support for Sealand.<BR>
<BR>
They'd *definitely* be a problem if Sealand ever gets any real<BR>
recognition from anyone. <BR>
<BR>
And in any case, unless the UK can come up with some sort of<BR>
"reasonable justification" for such actions, there are several<BR>
countries that just might do something because they don't want the<BR>
precedent set that it's ok to do that to a place that acts as a tax<BR>
haven.<BR>
<BR>
Several nations in the Caribbean, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Bahrain(?),<BR>
and I think there are a few in the Far East as well. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:53:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> An ever better idea just occured to me. This senario occurs near the<BR>
> border between the Imperium and Solomani Confederation. The PCs are<BR>
> invited to a remote hunting lodge for a meeting with an unnammed<BR>
> factor. They arrive at the lodge (after some tredidation and normal<BR>
> paranoia) and are met by several rather fit men dressed in smart but<BR>
> casual civilian clothes. After a through search for concealed<BR>
> recording devices (they are allowed to keep any sidearms), they are<BR>
> ushered into a conferene room. There (much to their suprise) they<BR>
> find seated at the table a senior co-ordinator from SolSec and a high<BR>
> official of the Imperial Ministry of Justice.<BR>
><BR>
> A group has set up a datahaven on a world between the Confederation<BR>
> and the Imperium. Naturally this is a direct affront to the<BR>
> soverignty of both parties and can not be tolerated. However, neither<BR>
> party can allow the other to act unilaterally and a joint operation<BR>
> is out of the question; therefore a third party proxy is required.<BR>
> One that both sides can officially disavow any knowledge of or<BR>
> involvement with. But as a deterant to other attempts, it must also<BR>
> be abundently clear that both sides have been involved.<BR>
><BR>
> A further complication is that both the Confederation and Imperium<BR>
> believe that the Datahaven has moles in their bureacracy supplying<BR>
> them with information. Also both want copies of the data being stored<BR>
> in the haven (if only to uncover the moles). How the PCs achieve<BR>
> their aims is up to them, but success will bring great rewards.<BR>
<BR>
Color me paranoid, but I suspect that the "reward" is just as likely to<BR>
be a bullet in the back of the head and an unmarked grave. After all,<BR>
you know that those disavowals are lies. AND CAN PROVE IT.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:35:47 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
Hey Leonard, don't forget that little thingy that looked like a flattened<BR>
football symbol..:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:59 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Numerals:  The Vilani would probably have a 'formal' numbers system.<BR>
That<BR>
> > is, arabic-like.  If they use base 10 (and I'm pretty sure they do) then<BR>
> > going with 10 symbols like arabic would be fine, IMO.  For the look of<BR>
> > them I suggest embellishments of:<BR>
> > 0.  inverted-U.  Originally an empty bowl, goes with Vilani food<BR>
> > obsession.<BR>
> > 1-3  single, double and triple dots, placed vertically.<BR>
> > 4. A cross or '+' symbol.<BR>
> > 5. A U with a closed top, a "full bowl"<BR>
> > 6-8: As 5, but with single, double or triple horizontal dots on top.<BR>
> > 9: A circle with horizontal bar through the middle (like theta).<BR>
><BR>
> Your suggestions are rather close to Mayan numerals. They used base 20,<BR>
> and the numerals went like this:<BR>
><BR>
> 0: conch shell<BR>
> ()<BR>
><BR>
> 1. single dot<BR>
>   *<BR>
><BR>
> 2. double dot<BR>
> **<BR>
><BR>
> 3. triple dot<BR>
> ***<BR>
><BR>
> 4. quadruple dot<BR>
> ****<BR>
><BR>
> 5. single bar<BR>
> ----<BR>
><BR>
> 6. single bar with dot<BR>
>   *<BR>
> ----<BR>
><BR>
> 7. single bar with double dot<BR>
> **<BR>
> ----<BR>
><BR>
> 8. single bar with triple dot<BR>
> ***<BR>
> ----<BR>
><BR>
> 9. single bar with quadruple dot<BR>
> ****<BR>
> ----<BR>
><BR>
> 10. double bar<BR>
> ----<BR>
> ----<BR>
><BR>
> 11. double bar with single dot<BR>
>   *<BR>
> ----<BR>
> ----<BR>
><BR>
> I trust you can deduce the rest?<BR>
><BR>
> And yes, it's a positional system. So 19538 would be:<BR>
><BR>
>   * ***<BR>
> *** ---- ----<BR>
> ** ---- ---- ----<BR>
> ---- ----<BR>
><BR>
> 2x20^3 8x20^2 16x20 18<BR>
> 16000 3200 320 18<BR>
><BR>
> Nice and sensible. The Mayans also had the nice habit of making the<BR>
> gylphs all occupy the same sized square in inscriptions. They when they<BR>
> "captioned" carvings they'd work the gylphs into the pictures.<BR>
><BR>
> There is a Mayan font that has the numerals and other calendrical<BR>
> symbols (they had a rather complex calendar, with more than just<BR>
> months/days) available out on the net.<BR>
><BR>
> > Tonality:  I'm not sure, but I don't think any tonal languages on earth<BR>
> > use phonetic-type alphabets, so this is a thoughie.  I think assuming<BR>
> > context fills in works fine.<BR>
><BR>
> And it opens up a whole new range of "puns" by using written phraes<BR>
> containing words that makes sense with one tonality, and make something<BR>
> funny (as opposed to pure nonsense) with another. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2578<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:24:41 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:23:56 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA96663;<BR>
	Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:22:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:22:35 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id AAA96632<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:22:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:22:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006090422.AAA96632@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2578<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2579</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/9/00 7:48:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2579<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
Re: ground combat I<BR>
Re: ground combat<BR>
FS Light Wheeled APC<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
Re: ground combat II<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Hologram/Candle Photo<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
Weapon silliness<BR>
Re: Striker and FFS2<BR>
Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
Re: ground combat<BR>
Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:42:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: GDW's _Striker_ (CT)<BR>
<BR>
> Shadowcat wrote :<BR>
><BR>
> Striker 2 was severely disapointing, it was based on the combined<BR>
> arms version of Command Decision, which wasnt all that great to<BR>
> begin with. years ago when the Combined Arms edition of CD was<BR>
> still in playtest, a very large scale CA/CD game was staged based<BR>
> on the first day of World War 3 as told in Red Storm Rising. this<BR>
> game took most of the first floor of a clasroom building at the<BR>
> University of Illinois, and took all day to play. needless to say we<BR>
> foound a lot of problems with the rules. namely the Air and Artillery<BR>
> rules.<BR>
><BR>
> On a related subject, what about staging something like a planetary<BR>
> invasion scenario at Gencon or Origins?<BR>
> at that point we should use the original Striker.<BR>
<BR>
While I like Traveller, this sort of thing is far better handled by Renegade<BR>
Legion<BR>
<BR>
If you get "Prefect" it does a reasonable job of linking the phases of an<BR>
interstellar invasion, starting with gaining deep space superiority using<BR>
"Leviathan", then gaining COACC superiority using "Interceptor", and<BR>
carrying out the final assault using "Centurion"<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 22:41:27 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat I<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
...<BR>
>Originally we were talking TL 9, and my point was that there will be no<BR>
<BR>
  "9+", "equivalent tech level" :>  PD doesn't exist in CT below that.<BR>
<BR>
>super-weapon that will not have a countermeasure.  Historically, tanks have<BR>
>fared poorly in the tank/anti-tank race, with artillery being a big<BR>
<BR>
  !?  ATGM's have been the main problem they've faced, so I have a _lot_<BR>
of trouble with the accuracy of that claim.<BR>
<BR>
>contributor.  Artillery has been the primary mechanism for battlefield<BR>
>slaughter for about 150 or more years, and that is unlikely to change in the<BR>
>NEAR future.<BR>
<BR>
  Current trends are potentially changing this, and the headlines merely<BR>
serve to underscore this.<BR>
<BR>
>Further, I have some skepticism about the 100% effectiveness of PD weapons<BR>
>that everyone here seems to expect.  Artillery is the cheapest way to<BR>
>deliver mass destruction on the battlefield using conventional weapons.<BR>
<BR>
  For much of the last century; it's unwise to state a current truism as<BR>
a universal truth.<BR>
<BR>
>And lastly, while I matched artillery alone against laser tank, I also<BR>
>pointed out that this is bad tactics and suggested that the only way to go<BR>
>was with combined arms.  That means tanks of my own, artillery, infantry on<BR>
>the ground, air to ground and air-to-air assets -- the works.  I suspect<BR>
<BR>
  Obviously - the question is whether it's cheap and easy for arty to<BR>
slice `n dice all target classes anymore (in the Far Future, that is).  <BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:24:58 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
<BR>
> Originally we were talking TL 9, and my point was that there will be no<BR>
> super-weapon that will not have a countermeasure.  Historically, tanks<BR>
have<BR>
> fared poorly in the tank/anti-tank race, with artillery being a big<BR>
> contributor.  Artillery has been the primary mechanism for battlefield<BR>
> slaughter for about 150 or more years, and that is unlikely to change in<BR>
the<BR>
> NEAR future.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I'm really not sure about that.<BR>
<BR>
My vision of combat at TL9 includes ...<BR>
<BR>
1) company point defense guns - think of a towed 20mm Vulcan cannon, plus a<BR>
passive sensor, plus a PD rig, all under a shell of armour. They sit up on a<BR>
hill and protect the company of infantry from artillery fire.<BR>
<BR>
2) battallion lasers - these would go out of service as unarmoured aircraft<BR>
disappear, but they are basically the above, except with a laser that goes<BR>
out to horizon range<BR>
<BR>
3) every vehicle having PD. Even at a quarter-megacredit a shot, it is still<BR>
worth putting on everything.<BR>
<BR>
> Further, I have some skepticism about the 100% effectiveness of PD weapons<BR>
> that everyone here seems to expect.  Artillery is the cheapest way to<BR>
> deliver mass destruction on the battlefield using conventional weapons.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I think this changes once point defense weapons come into play.<BR>
<BR>
> And lastly, while I matched artillery alone against laser tank, I also<BR>
> pointed out that this is bad tactics and suggested that the only way to go<BR>
> was with combined arms.  That means tanks of my own, artillery, infantry<BR>
on<BR>
> the ground, air to ground and air-to-air assets -- the works.  I suspect<BR>
> that anyone using a pure armored force, even of super-tanks, is going to<BR>
get<BR>
> seriously mauled against and opponent of equivalent tech and using<BR>
combined<BR>
> arms.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Probably. I tend towards thinking that the trend will move away from MBTs to<BR>
'light' and 'heavy' tanks.<BR>
<BR>
> Lastly, and just to be ornery, perhaps my 'artillery' is not traditional<BR>
> guns.  Maybe I have really sophisticated missiles with reflective coatings<BR>
> against lasers (add armor and ablatives if you like).  I add blip<BR>
enhancers<BR>
> that make them look like your grav tanks.  They are optically guided on<BR>
> terminal track and have stealth capabilities.  They are still probably<BR>
> cheaper than grav tanks, so I still get a good exchange rate.<BR>
<BR>
Take my TL10 battlefield taxi, take out the Infantry, add a 20 mm PD gun<BR>
turret and a Famile Spofulam D gun (*shudder*), plus a commander, more power<BR>
plant, more contragrav and lots more armour.<BR>
<BR>
Thats a FS TL10 grav tank, and it still costs well under a megacredit.<BR>
<BR>
>And some of<BR>
> theme are wild weasels that make even your IFF of questional value.<BR>
> Naturally, they are over the horizon and fly NOE, using terrain -- just<BR>
like<BR>
> your grav tanks.  What do your PDs shoot at?  Is that a missile or a<BR>
> friendly?<BR>
<BR>
If it's friendly, then a love tap from the 4 megajoule laser wont hurt them.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> And hey, no crew to worry about so these guys can outfly anything with<BR>
> organic occupants.<BR>
><BR>
> Am I getting closer now?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Not in my opinion :)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:48:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: FS Light Wheeled APC<BR>
<BR>
 Famile Spofulam TL8 Light Wheeled APC<BR>
<BR>
 A FS implementation of a standard design, the FS light wheeled APC has a<BR>
number of<BR>
variants. The base model is cheap at KCr 145 and has a sophisticated<BR>
electronics fitout for this TL, including two full-sized computers<BR>
(eliminating these takes the cost down to KCr 95, and quadruples<BR>
maintainence requirements). It is armoured with 1 cm of composite laminates<BR>
(AF8) and is capable of 120 kph on road and 30 kph off road.<BR>
<BR>
 With sophisticated maintainence troubleshooting software, is almost<BR>
self-maintaining, it carries 10 troops at 3 tons of gear, and has a combat<BR>
range of 10 hours travel.<BR>
<BR>
 It displaces 4 dtons, and thus takes up 8 dtons of space on a RO/RO<BR>
transport ship.<BR>
<BR>
 ***********************************<BR>
<BR>
 4 dton long box (unstreamlined) ; 7.2m x 3.8m x 1.9m<BR>
<BR>
 1m3 composite laminate armour ; 1 m3, 8t, KCr 8<BR>
<BR>
1.3 MW wheeled propulsion ; 1.3 m3, 1.3 t, KCr 32.5 (1.3 MW power demand)<BR>
<BR>
1.5 MW Advanced IC turbine ; 1.95 m3, 1.95t, KCr 19.5 (produces 1.5 MW)<BR>
<BR>
32000 liters HCD fuel ; 3m3, 2.7 t (costs Cr 750)<BR>
<BR>
 10x Cramped seats ; 25m3, 1.7t, KCr 1 (assumes 10 150 kg troops)<BR>
<BR>
 2x TL8 CM 0.8/CP 1.25 computers ; 1.24m3, 0.3t, KCr 50<BR>
<BR>
 5 km Vehicle Passive Sensor ; 0.01 m3, 0.01t, KCr 20<BR>
<BR>
500 km Laser Communicator ; 0.02m3, 0.04t, KCr 11<BR>
<BR>
 500 km radio ; 0.15 m3, 0.3t, KCr 5<BR>
<BR>
 2x Enhanced Electronic Crewstations ; 7m3, 0.4t, KCr 2<BR>
<BR>
 3 t gear ; 3m3, 3t<BR>
<BR>
 Mass 20t. 1.25 maintainence points (20/4, then divide by 4 for the 2 real<BR>
computers)<BR>
<BR>
 Speed is 120 kph on road, 30 kph off road.<BR>
<BR>
Ground pressure is 3 tons per m2.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:05:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>Given the chaos of the Third Imperium's early history (emperors<BR>
>abdicating, numerous admirals vying for the crown, etc.), are there any<BR>
>remaining semi-legitimate pretenders to the Crown?  If so, how wide is<BR>
>their support, and what hope have they of gaining the purple?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I would have to say that the 3I is quite ruthless in getting rid of<BR>
semi-legitimate pretenders to the crown, as long as they try to take the<BR>
crown, if they do not, they are left alone, maybe even raised to the ranks<BR>
of nobility & given a sub-sector or sector to run, surronded by Imperial<BR>
Agents.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:26:43 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Bragging<BR>
<BR>
Graeme Batho wroe :<BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:<BR>
> > I got my first story published in the New Zealand National<BR>
> > Science Fiction convention book over the weekend , along<BR>
> > with an "Honourable Mention" in the short story competition.<BR>
><BR>
> Congratulations!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks !<BR>
<BR>
> I know just how it feels.<BR>
> I had to -marry- an editor to get published.<BR>
<BR>
Well you're in good company.<BR>
We were teasing Tad about marrying an editor to get his books published too.<BR>
<BR>
> It's a pity we couldn't make it to the NZ natcon this year, or we<BR>
> would've met.<BR>
<BR>
Plan for next year in Auckland. Mercedes Lackey will be there.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 23:23:40 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat II<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat (RE: Milibots)<BR>
...<BR>
>Lastly, and just to be ornery, perhaps my 'artillery' is not traditional<BR>
>guns.  Maybe I have really sophisticated missiles with reflective coatings<BR>
>against lasers (add armor and ablatives if you like).  I add blip enhancers<BR>
<BR>
  Reflective/ablative armours aren't too serious in most T* versions any-<BR>
more, AFAIK. And that laser (penetration 24 = ~8.5cm/steel) I suggested<BR>
is _very_ modest - try FS for their efforts to achieve orbital superiority<BR>
from the planetary surface!<BR>
<BR>
>that make them look like your grav tanks.  They are optically guided on<BR>
>terminal track and have stealth capabilities.  They are still probably<BR>
<BR>
 Blip enhancers and stealth capabilities seem to be mutually incompatible :)<BR>
<BR>
  And grav tanks have signatures of all sorts - thermal, magnetic, radio/<BR>
radar EMF, and visual, of course.<BR>
<BR>
>cheaper than grav tanks, so I still get a good exchange rate.  And some of<BR>
>theme are wild weasels that make even your IFF of questional value.<BR>
>Naturally, they are over the horizon and fly NOE, using terrain -- just like<BR>
>your grav tanks.  What do your PDs shoot at?  Is that a missile or a friendly?<BR>
<BR>
  If it's small and missile-sized, and in my AO, it was hostile, yes?<BR>
Sure, we lose some liason vehicles that way, but that just means more<BR>
promotions to go around :><BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, those missiles are going to need to be _very_ sophisticated<BR>
on an individual basis to have all of the armour, propulsion, and the<BR>
electronics to decide that a road-sign isn't a grav-tank :|<BR>
<BR>
  And they can still get ripped to <bleep> by running across an armoured<BR>
patrol before they've been given orders to prosecute targets.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 03:02:21 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> HAHAHAHAHAHA! you'll be happy to know it even mentions the fact on the boxes and in the manuals ;)<BR>
<BR>
Two words:<BR>
Kick.<BR>
Ass.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 23:01:47 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Adventure Seed:<BR>
<BR>
"As you may have heard rumors Emperor Stryx's abdication in <BR>
989 was forced at gunpoint. Since Imperial law clearly establishes <BR>
that a contract made under duress is not valid hence Stryx's <BR>
abdication is invalid. Thus Stryx's son Gavin, who as a Noble <BR>
was legally obligated to follow this law, was guilty of treason <BR>
when he accepted his fathers throne. Naturally Gavin's treason <BR>
attaints his own family. Hence Gavin's grandson Strephon, is not <BR>
the lawful Emperor."<BR>
<BR>
"As Gavin's line was attainted then following Stryx's death<BR>
after his illegal quote abdication unquote the true Emperor<BR>
was Stryx's next youngest son Prince Paulo who should have reined<BR>
as Paulo II. Most people believe that Paulo died without issue<BR>
but genetic records indicate that Paulo fathered an illegitimate<BR>
daughter, Bonita, in 1044. Following her birth Bonita was given<BR>
up for adoption by her mother, an upper servant in the Imperial<BR>
Household. My men managed to break the adoption records last<BR>
year and have determined that Bonita was renamed Harriet Banks.<BR>
We rushed to speak to she who should have been known as Empress<BR>
Harriet only to learn that your mother died three months ago.<BR>
As her oldest child the Imperium should be yours."<BR>
<BR>
[Speaker drops to one knee]<BR>
<BR>
"What is your bidding Emperor [insert characters name here]."<BR>
<BR>
Referee:<BR>
<BR>
1: The speaker is a con man who is attempting to bilk<BR>
the character. All documentation was cleverly forged<BR>
(Forgery - 5).<BR>
<BR>
2: All is as stated. The characters mother was murdered to<BR>
silence her potential claim and the character is next.<BR>
<BR>
3: All is as stated however Styx's abdication was legal<BR>
under Imperial law. The power of the Emperor includes the<BR>
power to abdicate and this exercise of Imperial power takes<BR>
precedence over normal contract law. Moreover as Gavin was<BR>
confirmed by the Moot he was the legitimate Emperor. The <BR>
characters claim to the throne is invalid.<BR>
<BR>
4: As in situation three but, as in two, the charecters<BR>
mother was murdered to avoid potential scandal and the<BR>
character is next.<BR>
<BR>
5: All is as stated but the speakers hacking of the adoption <BR>
records was flawed. The charecters mother was not Princess<BR>
Bonita.<BR>
<BR>
6: All is as stated however, unknown to the speaker, the<BR>
charecters mother Bonita was not the son of Prince Paulo<BR>
but was the son of one of Paulo's clones. As such she, and<BR>
the character, have no claim to the throne.<BR>
<BR>
Canon footnotes: Prince Paulo, Emperor Gavin's younger<BR>
brother who supposedly died without a heir, was made up<BR>
for the scenario. Stryx, Gavin, and Strephon are quite<BR>
canonical. Canon also indicates Stryx's abdication was<BR>
coerced.<BR>
<BR>
Copyright 2000 Peter Newman<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 03:08:04 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hologram/Candle Photo<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I know a professional photographa . . .  (I'm not a photographa, . . .<BR>
<BR>
Ya fram Bastan?  Pak ya ca in tha yad, do ya?<BR>
I'm nat a photographa either.  I pak cas for a living.<BR>
I really hate it when I have to run up an dan hills to do this.<BR>
Its enough to give me a hat attack.<BR>
A wicked pissa hat attack.<BR>
A gad damned myocadial infaction!<BR>
Thank gad those hat surgeans are wicked smat!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:32:08 +0300 (EEST)<BR>
From: Esa Riihonen <riihonen@utu.fi><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
On 08-Jun-2000 Steven Bonneville wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Double-Vowels<BR>
> -------------<BR>
> Should I create special characters for vilani doubled-vowels? uu ii etc. I'm<BR>
> leaning toward this. Maybe even special characters for consonant sounds like<BR>
> kh, sh...<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I think, this depends how you think these should be pronounced. If they are<BR>
pronounced as just the longer form of the single vowels (as IMOTU) - you <BR>
could as well assume that there is no need for a separate character, just use<BR>
the double character. This is the way we handle it in finnish where we have<BR>
lots of doubled vowels.. <BR>
<BR>
Now I understand that majority of the readers of this list propably pronounce<BR>
e.g. 'naasirka'  differently to me so your mileage may vary.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Esa<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Esa Riihonen<BR>
Space Research Laboratory<BR>
Department of Physics, University of Turku, Finland<BR>
<BR>
E-Mail: Esa Riihonen <riihonen@utu.fi><BR>
<BR>
Time: 09-Jun-2000 10:14:06<BR>
<BR>
                                Time flies like an arrow,<BR>
                                Fruit flies like a banana.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:06:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
Over on alt.callahans someone had a silly quuote that I thought I'd<BR>
throw at some of the crazed weapons designers here.<BR>
<BR>
"Yes, you need a REALLY big weapon to Hunt Hurricanes!"<BR>
<BR>
Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:44:44 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker and FFS2<BR>
<BR>
> From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
> Subject: Striker & FFS2<BR>
<BR>
> Well, concerning weapon systems, FFS2 does add C-PAWs to the Striker<BR>
> battlefield, as well as custom meson guns.  This alone (plus small arms)<BR>
> makes it a good supplement for Striker I.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Battlefield PAWs have their uses, especially for area defense in an<BR>
aerosol-heavy environment.<BR>
<BR>
Battlefield meson guns are a Bad Thing. A small meson gun is simple to<BR>
build. Add it to a TL11 Fire Direction Center and you have something that<BR>
will skeet-shoot grav tanks, and that is Bad.<BR>
<BR>
> Energy weapons seem to have been toned down in FFS2.  Both plasma & fusion<BR>
> guns use the same damage rating formula.<BR>
<BR>
If something like the D gun is 'toned down' then I'd hate to see the<BR>
original.<BR>
<BR>
Fusion guns are more efficient under FFS2, because it's 30% or so more<BR>
energy efficient - you need less input for the same amount of output.<BR>
<BR>
>I recommend hybridizing the two<BR>
> schemes, or it has a big impact in combat vehicles conceived under<BR>
Striker;<BR>
> maybe multiply DV by 1.33 at short range, 1.5 at long range, & 2 at<BR>
extreme<BR>
> (assuming FFS2 DV is equivalent to Striker I PV) for fusion guns.  These<BR>
> are taken from the Striker I design booklet.<BR>
><BR>
> The CPR (and therefor MD) gun performance appears to have been uprated.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. CPR guns are a problem. I suggest making PD effective against CPR/MD<BR>
rounds about 2-3 TLs after it's introduction at TL9.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:57:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
<BR>
> From: Steven Hudson<BR>
>   Returning those reserves to their peace-time positions - and strengths<BR>
- -<BR>
> is going to take at least 2-3 years from `86; allow time for absorbing<BR>
> lessons and topping up logistics capabilities and `90 looks just about<BR>
> right for closing down the rats-nest. Maybe :><BR>
<BR>
On a vaguely related thing:<BR>
I was thinking about Arbellatra's march to the Core during the week.  My<BR>
opinion is that she was able to get as far as the border between Corridor<BR>
and Vland before Gustus realised that her fleet movements weren't just the<BR>
Corridor and Deneb fleets redeploying 'home'.<BR>
<BR>
Entering Vland was more or less her equivalent to Caesar crossing the<BR>
Rubicon.  Once she did that she would have been in open rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
I will have to look at the astrography, but it might have been possible for<BR>
her to grab Vland and Depot/Vland in a coup de main, if her fleets could<BR>
sneak through backwater systems.  That way the first Gustus would hear<BR>
about it would be when he receives news of the statement the Archduke of<BR>
Vland issues, denouncing Gustus and ordering Arbellatra to restore order on<BR>
Capital.  Of course the Archduke issued it voluntarily - you wouldn't think<BR>
the presence of Arbellatra's battle fleets would influence an Archduke of<BR>
the Imperium to engage in treason, would you?<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 04:15:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hey Leonard, don't forget that little thingy that looked like a flattened<BR>
> football symbol..:)<BR>
<BR>
I didn't/ That's the "stylized conch shell" I referred to. <BR>
<BR>
>> 0: conch shell<BR>
>> ()<BR>
<BR>
I used to take notes in runes, and use mayan numerals when I had to<BR>
write down numbers. Nothing that would stop anybody who knew anything<BR>
about codes, but "good enough" for everyday purposes.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Just what obscure character set (or *mix* of them) might<BR>
somebody use for personal notes? Drive the players *nuts*.<BR>
<BR>
Someday, I'll get all the fonts I'm collecting organized. When I do,<BR>
I'll let folks here know. I've got runes, ogham, a couple of "magickal"<BR>
alphabets, Heiroglyphics, some Mayan, Arabic, Hebrew, Klingon, Thai,<BR>
Katakana, hirigana and several others. <BR>
<BR>
Just the thing to confuse matters.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 07:03:51 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
<BR>
on 6/8/00 1:24 AM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm really not sure about that.<BR>
> <BR>
> My vision of combat at TL9 includes ...<BR>
> <BR>
> 1) company point defense guns - think of a towed 20mm Vulcan cannon, plus a<BR>
> passive sensor, plus a PD rig, all under a shell of armour. They sit up on a<BR>
> hill and protect the company of infantry from artillery fire.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of questions.  Ever looked at the number of  rounds a phalanx gun<BR>
fires per intercept?  Is your Vulcan is going to defend against mortars and<BR>
other indirect fire assets?  What prevents the company PD from becoming a<BR>
target itself.<BR>
<BR>
You now have to supply support to an additional piece of equipment.  That<BR>
means crew, repairs, expendables.  I'd love to see your TO&E and logistical<BR>
train.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2) battallion lasers - these would go out of service as unarmoured aircraft<BR>
> disappear, but they are basically the above, except with a laser that goes<BR>
> out to horizon range<BR>
> <BR>
> 3) every vehicle having PD. Even at a quarter-megacredit a shot, it is still<BR>
> worth putting on everything.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> And some of<BR>
>> theme are wild weasels that make even your IFF of questional value.<BR>
>> Naturally, they are over the horizon and fly NOE, using terrain -- just<BR>
> like<BR>
>> your grav tanks.  What do your PDs shoot at?  Is that a missile or a<BR>
>> friendly?<BR>
> <BR>
> If it's friendly, then a love tap from the 4 megajoule laser wont hurt them.<BR>
> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> And hey, no crew to worry about so these guys can outfly anything with<BR>
>> organic occupants.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Am I getting closer now?<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> Not in my opinion :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
I don't think you fully answered the last item.  Again, assume we are<BR>
speaking of a missile that utilizes NOE and stealth to close range, then<BR>
upon contact activated ECM and blip enhancing (I'm a grav tank).  Every love<BR>
tap you use when you fire on your own vehicle is a sot lost against the<BR>
missiles.  You arpeture of intercept is relatively low since you won't see<BR>
the target until it's fairly close.  You PD system must detect the target,<BR>
aquire and lock and then fire.  Even if you can track multiple targets, you<BR>
still must aquire each one with you PD.  Some of these 'targets' will turn<BR>
out to be your own vehicles.  There will be a delay between intercepts.<BR>
Some missiles WILL get through.  Each disabled vehicle means reduced PD<BR>
assets for the next intercept.<BR>
<BR>
As and aside, how much are you putting into vehicle maintenance, recovery<BR>
and repair?  What percentage of you vehicle fall prey to mechanical<BR>
problems?<BR>
<BR>
No system is 100% reliable.  Having spent some time under arms, I can tell<BR>
you that tankers spend a lot of time maintaining their vehicles.  And they<BR>
break down and wear out. How many vehicles doe you expect to lose to<BR>
mechanical faults and wear?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
(still enjoying this thread thoroughly)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, any time in the service Ian?<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:29:34 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
In message <B561DCD8.38C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>, Tod Glenn<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes<BR>
> At least we shared desert storm with all those<BR>
>third rate European, so that they could feel like their military was<BR>
>actually worth something.<BR>
><BR>
>Pardon me for venting, but please...enough of the US bashing crap.  I don't<BR>
>piss on your country, <BR>
<BR>
unless it's a third rate European one.<BR>
<BR>
>please respect mine.  If you feel you need to flame<BR>
>someone, take it off the list.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 04:39:59 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Over on alt.callahans someone had a silly quuote that I thought I'd<BR>
> throw at some of the crazed weapons designers here.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Yes, you need a REALLY big weapon to Hunt Hurricanes!"<BR>
> <BR>
> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
<BR>
Why not just use a high-power explosive (kiloton+ range) to create a<BR>
massive overpressure in the eye? or would it simply reform after being<BR>
disrupted?<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves, who never really tried to understand weather<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2579<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (rly-yh01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.33]) by air-yh03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:48:12 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:47:33 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA19488;<BR>
	Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:46:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:46:14 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA19442<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:46:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:46:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006091446.KAA19442@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2579<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2580</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/9/00 1:09:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2580<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
Re: ground combat II<BR>
Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
Re: Border Wars<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Striker and FFS2<BR>
Baaaaastan<BR>
Re: ground combat A<BR>
Chinese names for gamers link (fwd)<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
Conspiracies Covering Up Conspiracies?<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Throne?<BR>
RE: ground combat A<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
[OT] Stats on Internet users' nationality<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 07:54:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking more along the lines of a really HUGE Vaccuum Cleaner.<BR>
<BR>
Guess you could call that a big sucker.<BR>
<BR>
Ok..I will go back to just watching now.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>> Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com> 06/09/00 07:39AM >>><BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Over on alt.callahans someone had a silly quuote that I thought I'd<BR>
> throw at some of the crazed weapons designers here.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Yes, you need a REALLY big weapon to Hunt Hurricanes!"<BR>
> <BR>
> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
<BR>
Why not just use a high-power explosive (kiloton+ range) to create a<BR>
massive overpressure in the eye? or would it simply reform after being<BR>
disrupted?<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves, who never really tried to understand weather<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:08:09 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat II<BR>
<BR>
on 6/8/00 11:23 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Reflective/ablative armours aren't too serious in most T* versions any-<BR>
> more, AFAIK. And that laser (penetration 24 = ~8.5cm/steel) I suggested<BR>
> is _very_ modest - try FS for their efforts to achieve orbital superiority<BR>
> from the planetary surface!<BR>
<BR>
High efficiency mirroring/ablative coating may not protect the missile for<BR>
long, but even a slight delay means that the PD laser must remain on target<BR>
for that time and cannot be tasked elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> that make them look like your grav tanks.  They are optically guided on<BR>
>> terminal track and have stealth capabilities.  They are still probably<BR>
> <BR>
> Blip enhancers and stealth capabilities seem to be mutually incompatible :)<BR>
<BR>
Stealth on approach, blip enhancers on terminal track.<BR>
> <BR>
> And grav tanks have signatures of all sorts - thermal, magnetic, radio/<BR>
> radar EMF, and visual, of course.<BR>
> <BR>
>> cheaper than grav tanks, so I still get a good exchange rate.  And some of<BR>
>> theme are wild weasels that make even your IFF of questional value.<BR>
>> Naturally, they are over the horizon and fly NOE, using terrain -- just like<BR>
>> your grav tanks.  What do your PDs shoot at?  Is that a missile or a<BR>
>> friendly?<BR>
> <BR>
> If it's small and missile-sized, and in my AO, it was hostile, yes?<BR>
> Sure, we lose some liason vehicles that way, but that just means more<BR>
> promotions to go around :><BR>
> <BR>
> FWIW, those missiles are going to need to be _very_ sophisticated<BR>
> on an individual basis to have all of the armour, propulsion, and the<BR>
> electronics to decide that a road-sign isn't a grav-tank :|<BR>
<BR>
Not really. The Wasp over the horizon anti-tank missile prototype<BR>
demonstrated the ability to locate and kill tanks using rather<BR>
unsophisticated technology ($500,000 at TL 7). It will only get cheaper over<BR>
time.  Using traveller credits (based on 1970s dollars) the cost is more<BR>
like Cr 250,000 at TL 7.<BR>
<BR>
I'd dispense with armor in favor of anti-laser coatings.  Construction is<BR>
largely composite for low observability and low cost.  Probably a simple<BR>
high speed air-breather motor for approach to target, with a high thrust,<BR>
short duration chemical rocket for terminal phase ( say 20 or 30 Gs of<BR>
acceleration for a few seconds.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure what the kill mechanism is yet.  Possibly simple kinetic<BR>
(trials have already demonstrated rockets with more than three times to<BR>
velocity of any tank gun).  Possible hyper velocity with a Schardin effect<BR>
penetrater. Possible the infamous one-shot laser.<BR>
> <BR>
> And they can still get ripped to <bleep> by running across an armoured<BR>
> patrol before they've been given orders to prosecute targets.<BR>
<BR>
We're cruising a very high speed, low altitude NOE here.  The missile's<BR>
observable time will be low.<BR>
<BR>
Again, I am looking at these weapons in terms of what exists today.  I<BR>
haven't tried to build one with FFS2 or Striker<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:30:34 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brief Rant(was Re: Strategic Bombing)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/9/00 7:29 AM, Martin Hardgrave at martin@deira.demon.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In message <B561DCD8.38C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>, Tod Glenn<BR>
> <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes<BR>
>> At least we shared desert storm with all those<BR>
>> third rate European, so that they could feel like their military was<BR>
>> actually worth something.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Pardon me for venting, but please...enough of the US bashing crap.  I don't<BR>
>> piss on your country,<BR>
> <BR>
> unless it's a third rate European one.<BR>
> <BR>
>> please respect mine.  If you feel you need to flame<BR>
>> someone, take it off the list.<BR>
> <BR>
> Likewise.<BR>
<BR>
Point taken.  I apologize if you found this offensive.  My definition of<BR>
'rate' is in the sense of the British navy of the 18th century.<BR>
<BR>
In this sense:<BR>
<BR>
1st rate military powers (i.e. Superpowers): able to conduct multiple major<BR>
combat actions at extended distances.  Able to project power in sizable<BR>
quantities (i.e. to be a credible counter to enemy forces in place).<BR>
<BR>
Example: US<BR>
<BR>
2nd rate military powers:  Able to conduct major combat operations on a<BR>
single front.  Able to project power in limited ways, or having little force<BR>
projection but large military assets.<BR>
<BR>
Example: Britain, China<BR>
<BR>
3rd Rate Military powers: Unable to fight a sustained major combat<BR>
operation.  Unable to project power in any meaningful way without assistance<BR>
from allies. Moderate military assets<BR>
<BR>
Example:  Many central European countries, Japan.<BR>
<BR>
4th rate military powers:  Glorified police forces.  No ability to project<BR>
power.  Limited military assets.<BR>
<BR>
Example: most central African nations.<BR>
<BR>
I can remember where these definitions originally came from.  I think James<BR>
Dunnigan.<BR>
<BR>
The point is that identifying certain central European nations as 'third<BR>
rate military powers' is a simple statement of fact, not an insult.  I would<BR>
not consider Holland, for example, to be in the same class militarily as<BR>
pre-war Iraq.  Certainly not in the same class as Britain.  And Britain,<BR>
militarily is not in the same class as the US.<BR>
<BR>
NOTE:  I say militarily.  Just the way it is.  Some day the US will<BR>
doubtless be a second or even third rate power.  That's just the way it<BR>
goes.  The US has really only been a Superpower since 1945 (55 years),<BR>
compare this to England, which was a major world power from at least the<BR>
early 19th century through the mid 20th century, and remains significant to<BR>
this day.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:29:29 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Border Wars<BR>
<BR>
GC wrote,<BR>
>Never read Alien Realms or the old Vargr Module, I gather. <<BR>
<BR>
D'OH!<BR>
Yes, I just forgot that the references I was thinking about were in them and<BR>
didn't want to say for sure without knowing where to say to look.<BR>
<BR>
As for the happy fun ball...<BR>
no comment.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:27:12 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote,<BR>
>One word.<BR>
<BR>
Decentralization.<BR>
<BR>
Known space is big. really, REALLY big. Bigger than you think. Big<BR>
enough so that Core, The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim mightn as<BR>
well be entirely separate universes. Did I mention that Known Space is<BR>
really BIG??!!<<BR>
<BR>
I agree in principal, but there is a line in regards to the SRW that the it<BR>
was once the Imperium geared up their full industrial might that the<BR>
Solomani were finally pushed back.<BR>
Hmmm...that may support both of us suggesting that while the 3FW was fought<BR>
with limited mobilization and gear up but that the SRW wasn't.<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote,<BR>
>Two Words<BR>
<BR>
Ziru Sirka<<BR>
<BR>
I agree. Too much decentralization and you wind up condemning your frontiers<BR>
to fight independently and guarantee their loss.<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote,<BR>
>The 3I _has_ to decentralize - you cannot use a crust defense and shift<BR>
reserves around when it takes you a better portion of a year to move<BR>
anything from front to front. Each sector has to be responsible for it's own<BR>
naval assets. If you think about it - the FW's were along a 114pc front<BR>
(from the Sword Worlds to Corridor) with the industrial might of Reft,<BR>
Spinward and Deneb sectors - that's a _lot_ of class A starports and naval<BR>
bases and scout bases, oh my...<<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but against that is all the industrial might of the Zhodani Consulate.<BR>
A lot more class A starports and bases and an almost totally secure flank.<BR>
Unless we go with the Zhos don't really want to win theory, the Domain of<BR>
Deneb vs. the Zhodani Consulate scenario has only one result.<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm.. mebby the hivers told the zho's to start the 3FW so that the 3I<BR>
would<BR>
be in high production mode so that when the Sollys attacked we would be able<BR>
to whoop it up on them...<<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't put it past them...<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>That shoots to hell the theory that the 3I is prosperous because<BR>
its interior lines and advantageous size allow it to keep per capita<BR>
expenditures low; the implication is that they somehow aren't really<BR>
affected by what on a single (balkanized) world would be seen as<BR>
crippling military expenditures.<<BR>
<BR>
Consider the economies of most subsectors or clusters to begin with. In many<BR>
cases, 50%+ of the entire industrial capacity will be based on one high<BR>
population world. (At least on the fringes.) Even given the higher<BR>
populations in the core, you can still wind up with a single Pop A (CT)<BR>
world being the economy of a subsector with maybe 2-4 Pop 9 worlds<BR>
supporting it. How much does that effect economies of scale when 95% of your<BR>
systems are just "hanging" about? Does the 3I really support those massive<BR>
Imperial fleets based on the pennies from all the Pop 1-8 worlds out there?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 09:32:47 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker and FFS2<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Battlefield meson guns are a Bad Thing. A small meson gun is simple to<BR>
>build. Add it to a TL11 Fire Direction Center and you have something that<BR>
>will skeet-shoot grav tanks, and that is Bad.<BR>
<BR>
  And illegal in CT below TL F :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:21 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Baaaaastan<BR>
<BR>
> Ya fram Bastan?<BR>
<BR>
At least e's not from Cuber -- or Alabamer -- or Indianer<BR>
<BR>
: )<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 09:52:08 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat A<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
...<BR>
>A couple of questions.  Ever looked at the number of  rounds a phalanx gun<BR>
>fires per intercept?  Is your Vulcan is going to defend against mortars and<BR>
>other indirect fire assets?  What prevents the company PD from becoming a<BR>
>target itself.<BR>
<BR>
  Deploy it behind a military crest (defilade) to deal with indirect fire <BR>
only - infantry are a little less vulnerable to some types of direct fire.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, as stated before you can design an MD mortar with an absurd ROF,<BR>
particularly in calibres too small to be practical/worthwhile to shoot<BR>
down on an individual basis (i.e., the 40mm AGL from _heck_!).<BR>
<BR>
>You now have to supply support to an additional piece of equipment.  That<BR>
>means crew, repairs, expendables.  I'd love to see your TO&E and logistical<BR>
>train.<BR>
<BR>
  This doesn't apply to a missile/arty battalion?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:00:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Chinese names for gamers link (fwd)<BR>
<BR>
  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,<BR>
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.<BR>
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFD1D4.429387E0<BR>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1<BR>
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.1000609125836.20186F@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
<BR>
THought those of you into names and linguistics might find this<BR>
interesting.  There's a bit of soapboxing at the beginning about<BR>
transliteration systems.  Skip that and go to the tables:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/jiawen6/Chinesenames.html<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFD1D4.429387E0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:21:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
At 12:59 PM 6/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Since the whole thing is a 'vote someone out till there's single<BR>
>survivor', wonder how they're gonna break that last 1:1 tie ;-) <BR>
<BR>
When it's down to the last two, all the folks voted off previously vote for<BR>
the winner.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:29:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:29 PM 6/8/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Given the chaos of the Third Imperium's early history (emperors<BR>
>abdicating, numerous admirals vying for the crown, etc.), are there any<BR>
>remaining semi-legitimate pretenders to the Crown?  If so, how wide is<BR>
>their support, and what hope have they of gaining the purple?<BR>
<BR>
I ran a campaign around the Arbellatra Regency that addressed that question.<BR>
<BR>
After the Civil War, an extensive search was undertaken for any legitimate<BR>
heir to Jacqueline I.  There were, of course, dozens of claimants, ranging<BR>
from the ridiculous to the serious.  Of course, in the end Arbellatra<BR>
accepted the Crown.<BR>
<BR>
Since the Alkhalikoi Dynasty has remained in place for close to 500 years<BR>
(Loren, there's another thing for Strephon to celebrate; 1122 is the 500th<BR>
anniversary of Arbellatra becoming Regent.) there is little hope for a<BR>
descendant of Jacqueline, who was non-dynastic, to make any sort of claim.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:33:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:57 PM 6/9/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Entering Vland was more or less her equivalent to Caesar crossing the<BR>
>Rubicon.  Once she did that she would have been in open rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
At that point, I doubt there was an authority capable of bringing the<BR>
charge.  Also, right by means of fleet control had been established as a<BR>
standard.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:22:46 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@jvlnet.com><BR>
Subject: Conspiracies Covering Up Conspiracies?<BR>
<BR>
Now, the real cynical, (or the DC player) would say that this is just <BR>
one conspiracy covering up for another.....<BR>
<BR>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000609/ts/crime_king_dc_1.ht<BR>
ml<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:53:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Throne?<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion said:<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
><BR>
>>Given the chaos of the Third Imperium's early<BR>
history (emperors<BR>
>>abdicating, numerous admirals vying for the crown,<BR>
etc.), are there any<BR>
>>remaining semi-legitimate pretenders to the Crown? <BR>
If so, how wide is<BR>
>>their support, and what hope have they of gaining<BR>
the purple?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>    I would have to say that the 3I is quite ruthless<BR>
in getting rid of<BR>
>semi-legitimate pretenders to the crown, as long as<BR>
they try to take the<BR>
>crown, if they do not, they are left alone, maybe<BR>
even raised to the ranks<BR>
>of nobility & given a sub-sector or sector to run,<BR>
surronded by Imperial<BR>
>Agents.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the 3I absolutely *loves* the various<BR>
loonies who claim to be the True Emperor, because<BR>
their ludicrous claims can be used to cast doubt upon<BR>
the semi-legit pretenders.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt that the semi-legit types would be that easily<BR>
taken out... remember that they'd have their followers<BR>
too. All Imperial personnel swear to serve the<BR>
Emperor, but what if they decide that the pretender's<BR>
the Emperor? It seems that given Imperial history the<BR>
Emperor is only Emperor as long as s/he/it commands<BR>
the loyalty of the armed forces. An Emperor who pisses<BR>
off the Navy, for example, is just begging for another<BR>
Civil War... (Is this what happened in the Rebellion?<BR>
I don't have MegaTraveller.)<BR>
<BR>
Arthur<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:54:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: ground combat A<BR>
<BR>
> >A couple of questions.  Ever looked at the number of  rounds a<BR>
> phalanx gun<BR>
> >fires per intercept?  Is your Vulcan is going to defend against<BR>
> mortars and<BR>
> >other indirect fire assets?  What prevents the company PD from becoming a<BR>
> >target itself.<BR>
><BR>
>   Deploy it behind a military crest (defilade) to deal with indirect fire<BR>
> only - infantry are a little less vulnerable to some types of direct fire.<BR>
><BR>
>   FWIW, as stated before you can design an MD mortar with an absurd ROF,<BR>
> particularly in calibres too small to be practical/worthwhile to shoot<BR>
> down on an individual basis (i.e., the 40mm AGL from _heck_!).<BR>
<BR>
As usual, Infantry takes it in the rear.<BR>
<BR>
> >You now have to supply support to an additional piece of equipment.  That<BR>
> >means crew, repairs, expendables.  I'd love to see your TO&E and<BR>
> logistical<BR>
> >train.<BR>
><BR>
>   This doesn't apply to a missile/arty battalion?<BR>
<BR>
Sure it does, although you now have me thinking in terms of missiles rather<BR>
than gun tubes.  These can be mounted on relatively inexpensive platforms,<BR>
since aside from mission configuration, all guidance is within the missile<BR>
itself.  I may even deploy the missiles in ground mounted fixed batteries<BR>
(air transportable) since the launch tubes have no value after the missiles<BR>
is launched.  The only high value assets are the C3I units, which we make<BR>
highly mobile.<BR>
<BR>
Another question occurs after looking at SADARM and your mention of the<BR>
above 40mm AGL.  What about the vulnerability of the CIWS (PD) weapons<BR>
themselves to mass deployment of small ordnance?<BR>
<BR>
I'm taking FFS2 and Striker with me on vacation next week, and I'll tray<BR>
building some tanks and other weapons. I want to see hoe the system compares<BR>
to actual weapons in deployment.  I'll post the results.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
(still fascinated by this thread)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:03:34 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 9 Jun 00, at 10:56, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Translating this into Traveller, a microstate is set up on an unihabited world<BR>
> > just over the Imperial Border with the express purpose of circumventing<BR>
> > Imperial Law. The Imperium has decided that the microstate is a sufficent<BR>
> > annoyance to be dealt with and the Marines are on their way. Now some of the<BR>
> > records held in the microstate could prove highly damaging to an Imperial<BR>
> > Official (proof of acepting bribes maybe, or records of embezzlement etc) and<BR>
> > said official has got wind of the Impending action. He/she hires the PCs to<BR>
> > get and get the records out. The PCs have to get their before the Marines, get<BR>
> > the records, make sure there are no copies of the records and then get away<BR>
> > making it look like the records were never there. Could be a fun senario.<BR>
> <BR>
> An ever better idea just occured to me. This senario occurs near the border<BR>
> between the Imperium and Solomani Confederation. The PCs are invited to<BR>
> a remote hunting lodge for a meeting with an unnammed factor. They arrive<BR>
> at the lodge (after some tredidation and normal paranoia) and are met by<BR>
> several rather fit men dressed in smart but casual civilian clothes. After a<BR>
> through search for concealed recording devices (they are allowed to keep<BR>
> any sidearms), they are ushered into a conferene room. There (much to<BR>
> their suprise) they find seated at the table a senior co-ordinator from<BR>
> SolSec and a high official of the Imperial Ministry of Justice.<BR>
> <BR>
> A group has set up a datahaven on a world between the Confederation and<BR>
> the Imperium. Naturally this is a direct affront to the soverignty of both<BR>
> parties and can not be tolerated. However, neither party can allow the other<BR>
> to act unilaterally and a joint operation is out of the question; therefore a<BR>
> third party proxy is required. One that both sides can officially disavow any<BR>
> knowledge of or involvement with. But as a deterant to other attempts, it<BR>
> must also be abundently clear that both sides have been involved.<BR>
> <BR>
> A further complication is that both the Confederation and Imperium believe<BR>
> that the Datahaven has moles in their bureacracy supplying them with<BR>
> information. Also both want copies of the data being stored in the haven (if<BR>
> only to uncover the moles). How the PCs achieve their aims is up to them,<BR>
> but success will bring great rewards.<BR>
<BR>
2) All is as stated, except those high ranking SolSec and IMOJ people<BR>
_are_ the ones running the datahaven, and the PC's are being set up to<BR>
look for the _real_ IMOJ and SolSec undercover agents looking for the<BR>
aforementioned datahaven group.<BR>
<BR>
3) All is as stated, except except those high ranking SolSec and IMOJ<BR>
people _are_ the ones running the datahaven, and the PC's are being set<BR>
up to _look_ like the ones running the datahaven, which is a decoy, and<BR>
is chock full of wrong, fictional and otherwise misleading information.<BR>
After a suitable period of internal chaos on the parts of SolSec and<BR>
IMOJ (such as hunting down and eliminating the supposed double agents<BR>
listed, etc), the group intends on approaching both with offers to sell<BR>
them the _real_ data they were looking for...<BR>
<BR>
4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
George Smiley...;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:03:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Over on alt.callahans someone had a silly quuote that I thought I'd<BR>
>> throw at some of the crazed weapons designers here.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> "Yes, you need a REALLY big weapon to Hunt Hurricanes!"<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Why not just use a high-power explosive (kiloton+ range) to create a<BR>
> massive overpressure in the eye? or would it simply reform after being<BR>
> disrupted?<BR>
<BR>
Aside from possible unwanted side effects, that's *way* too small to<BR>
have much effect. Remember, the eye is *miles* across. As I recall, the<BR>
energy budget of a typical hurricane is much bigger than any nuke ever<BR>
set off (or likely to be set off on Earth!)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:42:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the feedback.  As you can tell I had a very poor comprehension of these spacecraft <BR>
missiles. <BR>
<BR>
(1)  Mayday 4.1:  You can find it at the BITS web site under archives.  (www.bits.org.uk)<BR>
The Roleplaying Space Combat System is there as well.<BR>
<BR>
(2)  Fire Control Locks:  I now understand why a lock is needed at time of detonation.  But, it <BR>
doesn't seem to be necessary at time of launch.<BR>
<BR>
(3)  Missile Guidance: <BR>
 From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> I don't know what the Mayday rules say, but a controlled missile is harder to spoof than an <BR>
independent one, in general. <BR>
 From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
>Controlled/SIM/FIM: cost would be one reason; and the need for a fairly big onboard sensor <BR>
for a missile to work in FIM mode.<BR>
 From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> *Cost*. Controlled are cheap. Semi-independent are expensive. Fully independent are <BR>
*hideously* expensive.<BR>
<BR>
Where are the costs ?<BR>
controlled - command guidance unit + comm receiver<BR>
semi-independent - comm transceiver + sensor<BR>
fully-independent - smart seeker + sensor<BR>
<BR>
The primary cost driver is the sensor.  Given a target acquisition range of 30 k km then a <BR>
PEMS array of 12.5 (0.5 MCr), active array of 11 (0.2 MCr), or LIDAR of 13.5 (0.25 MCr) would <BR>
be required.  A smart seeker is only 0.001 MCr.  All prices are based on TL 15.  Given lower <BR>
TLs the cost increases, but only escalates for active sensors.  <BR>
<BR>
These prices are significant for a short-range det laser, but they are trivial for a long-range det <BR>
laser:  500 kT SR det-laser is 1.2 MCr and 500 kT LR det-laser is 12 MCr.<BR>
<BR>
Have I omitted some costs somewhere ?<BR>
<BR>
(4)  Penetration Value:<BR>
<BR>
FFSv2 doesn't state how to calculate the PV for certain weapons--Namely, lasers, PAWS, <BR>
and fusion/plasma weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Working backwards from the stats given for det-laser missiles, I've determined that <BR>
PV = intensity * 2.86.  Since 2.86 is the toughness for hard steel then this makes sense.<BR>
Is this the correct formula ?<BR>
<BR>
Thnaks.-- Bob<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:48:15 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Aside from possible unwanted side effects, that's *way* too small to <BR>
>have much effect. Remember, the eye is *miles* across. As I recall, the <BR>
>energy budget of a typical hurricane is much bigger than any nuke ever <BR>
>set off (or likely to be set off on Earth!) <BR>
<BR>
I recall Poul Anderson's _Orion Shall Rise_, the Skyholm aerial station<BR>
used precisely-directed lasers to break up hurricanes into smaller,<BR>
less destructive storms.  Aircraft with sensor packages were flown<BR>
through the storm to get enough data for planning the storm's demise.<BR>
<BR>
Would this technology be feasible?  Anderson had a character in the<BR>
book worry about long-term climactic effects of breaking up these<BR>
storms, so even if it works it might not be the best solution.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:01:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: [OT] Stats on Internet users' nationality<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.  Sorry for the waste of bandwidth, please reply off-list.<BR>
<BR>
I'm wondering if anyone out there knows where I can find statistics on the<BR>
nationality of internet users.  It used to be said that 90% were north<BR>
american, but that is apparently changing now.  Any idea where I might<BR>
find a study on this?<BR>
<BR>
Many thanks,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
(charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:47:02 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 11:06 AM<BR>
Subject: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Over on alt.callahans someone had a silly quuote that I thought I'd<BR>
> throw at some of the crazed weapons designers here.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Yes, you need a REALLY big weapon to Hunt Hurricanes!"<BR>
> <BR>
> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
FW190<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2580<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:09:15 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:08:31 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA32233;<BR>
	Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:03:38 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:03:18 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA32192<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:03:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:03:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006092003.QAA32192@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2580<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2581</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/9/00 4:27:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2581<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
re: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
[OT] Stats on Internet users' nationality<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
ACQ Question<BR>
Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
re:  [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
RE: ground combat A<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Ground Combat<BR>
Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:06:18 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
At 0:22 -0400 9/6/00, "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote:<BR>
>And the fleets just keep coming and coming and coming - it a really bad<BR>
>time, the Zho's might take the marches - but the fleets keep coming and<BR>
>coming and coming - Massive production in the core will eventually prevail.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Maybe not - we know the Zho's are using the FWs as a limited war, so <BR>
I doubt that they are fully committing to the battle. In addition, <BR>
the entire consulate spans some 14 sectors (at TL14) and the Core of <BR>
the Imperium spans 23 sectors. If the Zhodani got involve this <BR>
reduces the non-affected sectors by a further 7 - so all of a sudden <BR>
it's 15 sectors (at a higher tech level) against 14. With the Vargr, <BR>
Vland and Lishum start to get raided too.<BR>
<BR>
I think stalemate would ensue; I suspect victory would be pyhrric.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:59:58 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 0:22 -0400 9/6/00, "Bruce Macintosh" <BR>
<bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
>I don't think I've seen Mayday 4.1 - could someone point me at it?<BR>
<BR>
The pdf is on the archive page at BITS http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
I did mention to you a while ago because it uses the DSR material...<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
DOm<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:57:43 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
At 20:41 -0400 8/6/00, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <BR>
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:<BR>
>There (much to<BR>
>their suprise) they find seated at the table a senior co-ordinator from<BR>
>SolSec and a high official of the Imperial Ministry of Justice.<BR>
><BR>
>A group has set up a datahaven on a world between the Confederation and<BR>
>the Imperium. Naturally this is a direct affront to the soverignty of both<BR>
>parties and can not be tolerated. However, neither party can allow the other<BR>
>to act unilaterally and a joint operation is out of the question; therefore a<BR>
>third party proxy is required. One that both sides can officially disavow any<BR>
>knowledge of or involvement with. But as a deterant to other attempts, it<BR>
>must also be abundently clear that both sides have been involved.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, you could use Smade's World which is independent and in Solomani Space.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:14:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani fonts<BR>
<BR>
>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Tonality:  I'm not sure, but I don't think any tonal <BR>
>languages on earth use phonetic-type alphabets, so this is<BR>
<BR>
>a thoughie.  I think assuming context fills in works fine.<BR>
<BR>
Thai, Cambodian, and Laotian are all tonal languages that<BR>
use native phonetic alphabets.  Vietnamese is a tonal<BR>
language that uses the Latin alphabet with various<BR>
diacritical marks to indicate tones.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:46:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Since the whole thing is a 'vote someone out till there's single<BR>
>>survivor', wonder how they're gonna break that last 1:1 tie ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>When it's down to the last two, all the folks voted off previously vote for<BR>
>the winner.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Damn, I was hoping they would do a Pit-Fight until the death.  Oh well,<BR>
they wuss out.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:18:56 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Stats on Internet users' nationality<BR>
<BR>
At 16:03 -0400 9/6/00,  Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
>I'm wondering if anyone out there knows where I can find statistics on the<BR>
>nationality of internet users.  It used to be said that 90% were north<BR>
>american, but that is apparently changing now.  Any idea where I might<BR>
>find a study on this?<BR>
<BR>
Haven't got figures, but you may want to look at <BR>
http://www.networldmap.com/ which has some stuff on this.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:28:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
>From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
<BR>
>(funny things snipped)You guys are so lucky. I wish i <BR>
>could have been there!<BR>
<BR>
We wish you could have been here, too, so why don't you<BR>
start planning now to come to next year's party?  I think<BR>
that our farthest Traveller this year was John Groth<BR>
(AuricTech), who came from Louisiana.  Surely Germany isn't<BR>
that much farther away!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:36:29 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: BayCon Party Report<BR>
<BR>
On 06/09/00 at 02:28 PM,  Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
<BR>
>>(funny things snipped)You guys are so lucky. I wish i <BR>
>>could have been there!<BR>
<BR>
>We wish you could have been here, too, so why don't you<BR>
>start planning now to come to next year's party?  I think<BR>
>that our farthest Traveller this year was John Groth<BR>
>(AuricTech), who came from Louisiana.  Surely Germany isn't<BR>
>that much farther away!<BR>
<BR>
Especially, now that you can fly over the north pole from Germany to<BR>
San Fransisco!  <g> I wonder if international airfares will come<BR>
down now? Ha!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:53:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>Given the chaos of the Third Imperium's early history <BR>
>(emperors abdicating, numerous admirals vying for the <BR>
>crown, etc.), are there any remaining semi-legitimate <BR>
>pretenders to the Crown?  If so, how wide is their <BR>
>support, and what hope have they of gaining the purple?<BR>
<BR>
(Chambers of His Imperial Majesty.  Present are Strephon,<BR>
his seneschal, two Imperial guards.)<BR>
<BR>
Guard #1:  Your Majesty, His Grace Duke Chakrampong and<BR>
retainers!<BR>
<BR>
[Enter Chakrampong and other PCs; they kneel and sit]<BR>
<BR>
Strephon:  Ah, Chakrampong, there you are.  Do be seated,<BR>
and your retainers.  We are pleased with your work on the<BR>
case of Colonel Kurtz, and trust that you have been well<BR>
rewarded.<BR>
<BR>
Chakrampong:  The opportunity to be of service to the<BR>
Iridium Throne is the greatest reward, Sire.  <BR>
<BR>
Strephon:  Here is a problem both new and old.  A new<BR>
pretender to the throne has arisen, one Tarlissa, who<BR>
claims a direct link to the Zhunastu dynasty.  Here is her<BR>
image.  [holovid projection on]<BR>
<BR>
Seneschal:  Our spies in the councils of the Solomani<BR>
Confederation report that she has commenced negotiations<BR>
with them.  They will start planting rumors among the poor<BR>
worlds of the Rim soon, and she will likely announce her<BR>
existence and claim to the throne within one year.  She<BR>
must be found and her claim terminated before it has been<BR>
made.  With extreme prejudice, you understand?<BR>
<BR>
Chakrampong:  We are grateful for this chance to serve,<BR>
Your Majesty.  [bowing]<BR>
<BR>
[exeunt Chakrampong and other PCs]<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:52:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
[re-mailed to you from rec.arts.sf.science]<BR>
[the original seemed to come from nyrath@clark.net]<BR>
<BR>
I finally found a copy of a book from my childhood,<BR>
PROPULSION SYSTEMS FOR SPACE FLIGHT by William Corliss (1960)<BR>
<BR>
Among the descriptions of ion drives, arc-jets, and NERVA was <BR>
a propulsion system that made my hair stand on end.<BR>
<BR>
It's the "Consumable Nuclear Rocket" or "Burning Wall".<BR>
You don't want to be on the same continent when this monster lights off.<BR>
<BR>
Make a long rod of U-235, where each section is a critical mass.<BR>
Keep it from blowing up by encasing it in a sheath of a good neutron<BR>
absorber, like cadmium.<BR>
<BR>
Surround it with a thick layer of solid propellant, say lithium<BR>
hydride.  About 100kg of propellant for each 1 kg of U-235.<BR>
<BR>
The thing is like a huge radioactive pencil, with a uranium lead.<BR>
<BR>
To ignite, drop off a small section of the cadmium sheath off the<BR>
end.  In that region, the nuclear reaction will flash the propellant<BR>
(and the uranium) into superheated vapor.<BR>
<BR>
The anisotropic expansion of this cloud of white hot radioactive<BR>
death will produce forward thrust.<BR>
<BR>
As the neutron temperature increased, the reaction will travel<BR>
up the rod as the capacity of the cadmium to absorb neutrons<BR>
is exceeded.  And when we say "travel", we *mean* "travel".<BR>
The reaction will travel up the rod at speeds exceeding<BR>
100 m/sec.<BR>
<BR>
It is an amusing commentary on the times that the book<BR>
thought that this was an attractive propulsion system, <BR>
if only the rapid reaction travel could be slowed down.<BR>
Just think, a propulsion system that *depends* upon<BR>
vaporizing reactor grade uranium and spraying it in all directions!<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:04:30 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> I finally found a copy of a book from my childhood,<BR>
> PROPULSION SYSTEMS FOR SPACE FLIGHT by William Corliss (1960)<BR>
> <BR>
> Among the descriptions of ion drives, arc-jets, and NERVA was<BR>
> a propulsion system that made my hair stand on end.<BR>
> <BR>
> It's the "Consumable Nuclear Rocket" or "Burning Wall".<BR>
<BR>
Snip<BR>
<BR>
> It is an amusing commentary on the times that the book<BR>
> thought that this was an attractive propulsion system,<BR>
> if only the rapid reaction travel could be slowed down.<BR>
> Just think, a propulsion system that *depends* upon<BR>
> vaporizing reactor grade uranium and spraying it in all directions!<BR>
<BR>
Yikes!!!<BR>
<BR>
But what a way to retreat from a stronghold, and deny it to the enemy...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:11:19 -0500 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: ACQ Question<BR>
<BR>
Regarding facing and combat in ACQ:<BR>
<BR>
The movement section tell us that it takes 1AP to change facing up to 90degrees.  From this, I make the assumption that the facing of a combatant is important.<BR>
<BR>
But, in either combat section, I can't find any rule penalizing a combatant for attacking anyone to the sided or behind you.  Is there such a rule?<BR>
<BR>
If not, I would propose something like this:<BR>
<BR>
Facing during Ranged Combat:<BR>
A combatant can fire on any target in their front 180 degress (90 degrees to either side of their facing).  A target in the back 180 degrees may be engaged with any one-handed weapon, but the combatant suffers a +1 Diff Level as well as having to fire the weapon one handed.<BR>
<BR>
Also, although APs are used to defend in a melee attack, perhaps it should be made harder to attack someone behind you or defend an attack from the rear:<BR>
<BR>
Facing during melee combat:<BR>
A combatant may only attack a target in their front 180 degrees.<BR>
Any defender being attacked from their rear 180 degrees suffers +1 Diff Level to their Block or Dodge.  A successful dodge or block allows the defender to turn to face their attacker.<BR>
<BR>
Also, ACQ doesn't actually say how close you have to be to engage in melee with a target.  I'm assuming it's within Contact (3m) range. :-)<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:15:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> It's the "Consumable Nuclear Rocket" or "Burning Wall".<BR>
> You don't want to be on the same continent when this monster lights off.<BR>
<BR>
> It is an amusing commentary on the times that the book<BR>
> thought that this was an attractive propulsion system, <BR>
> if only the rapid reaction travel could be slowed down.<BR>
> Just think, a propulsion system that *depends* upon<BR>
> vaporizing reactor grade uranium and spraying it in all directions!<BR>
<BR>
Hm.  It's unclear from that exactly what sort of exhaust velocity we're<BR>
talking about.  I wonder if some variant on the design could be used to make a fission shaped charge/SEFOP ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:17:07 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>This brings me to my ObTrav:  Given the chaos of the Third<BR>
<BR>
>Imperium's early history (emperors abdicating, numerous <BR>
>admirals vying for the crown, etc.), are there any<BR>
>remaining semi-legitimate pretenders to the Crown?  <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand (my previous post about nipping these<BR>
problems in the bud being the first hand), what makes the<BR>
Emperor legitimate?  It does not appear that any concept of<BR>
divine right or divine blessing underlies the position,<BR>
unlike, for example, European monarchs or Chinese emperors.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
The Third Imperium is, officially, a restoration of the<BR>
Ziru Sirka.  What was the legitimacy of the Vilani<BR>
emperor's position?<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, I have a rush project and can't just explore<BR>
this in writing at great length right now, but I look<BR>
forward to your responses.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:20:28 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: ground combat A<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: ground combat A<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Deploy it behind a military crest (defilade) to deal with indirect fire<BR>
>> only - infantry are a little less vulnerable to some types of direct fire.<BR>
>> FWIW, as stated before you can design an MD mortar with an absurd ROF,<BR>
>> particularly in calibres too small to be practical/worthwhile to shoot<BR>
>> down on an individual basis (i.e., the 40mm AGL from _heck_!).<BR>
><BR>
>As usual, Infantry takes it in the rear.<BR>
<BR>
  Well, yeah, but as you indicate, they're probably used to it :(<BR>
<BR>
>> >You now have to supply support to an additional piece of equipment.  That<BR>
...<BR>
>>   This doesn't apply to a missile/arty battalion?<BR>
><BR>
>Sure it does, although you now have me thinking in terms of missiles rather<BR>
>than gun tubes.  These can be mounted on relatively inexpensive platforms,<BR>
>since aside from mission configuration, all guidance is within the missile<BR>
<BR>
 Drone missiles, or drone missiles in drag as drone vehicles launching missiles?<BR>
Certainly far from being cheap arty rounds in any case; the point perhaps is<BR>
that most weapon systems can find themselves a role in a whole, except that<BR>
efficiency will drop in mono-culture forces (somewhat for "tanks are the<BR>
only unit" to massively in "arty/infantry are all that's needed").<BR>
<BR>
>itself.  I may even deploy the missiles in ground mounted fixed batteries<BR>
>(air transportable) since the launch tubes have no value after the missiles<BR>
<BR>
  The electronics for a lot of systems will need to be on-board the launcher,<BR>
plus perhaps the gunners to decide on targets. Mobile launchers are more<BR>
flexible, and also simplify re-loading - masses of disposable launchers are<BR>
very specialized, and not broadly efficient.<BR>
<BR>
>is launched.  The only high value assets are the C3I units, which we make<BR>
>highly mobile.<BR>
<BR>
  And your own tanks - combined arms, remember? :><BR>
<BR>
>Another question occurs after looking at SADARM and your mention of the<BR>
>above 40mm AGL.  What about the vulnerability of the CIWS (PD) weapons<BR>
>themselves to mass deployment of small ordnance?<BR>
<BR>
  You build them so they're either immune to CBM sub-munition contact hits,<BR>
or disposable ("Guys, don't worry - speed _is_ armour!!").<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:22:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/8/00 12:59 PM, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Since the whole thing is a 'vote someone out till there's single<BR>
> survivor', wonder how they're gonna break that last 1:1 tie ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I thought that that was an awful idea, it destroys the teamwork mentality<BR>
needed. They should have an ejection process, but the way it's set up seems<BR>
really silly.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Same idea, better rules, drop some retired military types with<BR>
supplies on a planet in groups. First group to escape the gravity well wins.<BR>
Advertisments for survival gear and recruiting spots share time with cruise<BR>
line promos.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:32:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>"As you may have heard rumors Emperor Stryx's abdication <BR>
>in 989 was forced at gunpoint. Since Imperial law clearly <BR>
<BR>
(Imperial chambers; later that night.  Present are Strephon<BR>
his seneschal, and two Imperial guards.)<BR>
<BR>
Strephon (looking at datascreen):  OK, this is a problem. <BR>
This is a problem.  I want this joker whacked and I mean<BR>
pronto.  Your guy Chakrampong still onna planet?<BR>
<BR>
Seneschal (looking at another datascreen):  Yeah, boss, he<BR>
and his guys are on their ship, but they aren't gonna lift<BR>
for an hour.<BR>
<BR>
Strephon:  Great. Well, take care of it.  I've got a date<BR>
with a hot empress tonight.<BR>
<BR>
Seneschal:  I'm on it, boss.  We'll have these two in<BR>
icicles for ya before ya know it.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:37:29 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ground Combat<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
><BR>
> on 6/8/00 1:24 AM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I'm really not sure about that.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > My vision of combat at TL9 includes ...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 1) company point defense guns - think of a towed 20mm Vulcan cannon,<BR>
plus a<BR>
> > passive sensor, plus a PD rig, all under a shell of armour. They sit up<BR>
on a<BR>
> > hill and protect the company of infantry from artillery fire.<BR>
><BR>
> A couple of questions.  Ever looked at the number of  rounds a phalanx gun<BR>
> fires per intercept?  Is your Vulcan is going to defend against mortars<BR>
and<BR>
> other indirect fire assets?  What prevents the company PD from becoming a<BR>
> target itself.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The Vulcan is specifically there to defend against mortars and such. I'm<BR>
allotting about 200 0.4 kilo rounds per fire phase. How many rounds are you<BR>
going to allocate to suppressing it ? ("3 rounds of chaff, and 2 rounds of<BR>
smoke").<BR>
<BR>
Nothing prevents it becoming a target. In fact, thats the point - thats why<BR>
it digs in and brings it's own bunker. It wont help against HE or HEAP, but<BR>
it will slow down the ICMs.<BR>
<BR>
I think the rest of the PBIs would prefer the artillery duelling with the PD<BR>
guns to the artillery shooting cluster munitions at them.<BR>
<BR>
> You now have to supply support to an additional piece of equipment.  That<BR>
> means crew, repairs, expendables.  I'd love to see your TO&E and<BR>
logistical<BR>
> train.<BR>
<BR>
Using Striker rules, it isnt too bad.<BR>
<BR>
> I don't think you fully answered the last item.  Again, assume we are<BR>
> speaking of a missile that utilizes NOE and stealth to close range, then<BR>
> upon contact activated ECM and blip enhancing (I'm a grav tank).<BR>
<BR>
Stealth and countermeasures are damn expensive under FFS2. The electronics<BR>
fitout you are describing is more than FS puts into most tanks.<BR>
<BR>
>Every love<BR>
> tap you use when you fire on your own vehicle is a sot lost against the<BR>
> missiles.  You arpeture of intercept is relatively low since you won't see<BR>
> the target until it's fairly close.  You PD system must detect the target,<BR>
> aquire and lock and then fire.  Even if you can track multiple targets,<BR>
you<BR>
> still must aquire each one with you PD.  Some of these 'targets' will turn<BR>
> out to be your own vehicles.  There will be a delay between intercepts.<BR>
> Some missiles WILL get through.  Each disabled vehicle means reduced PD<BR>
> assets for the next intercept.<BR>
<BR>
OK, one thing FS does do is put real computers into tanks. I guess that<BR>
means that they can keep track of where our tanks should be, which reduces<BR>
that problem (isnt one of the US experimental units equipped with what High<BR>
Guard called Map Boxes ?).<BR>
<BR>
Blip enhancers will also be of reduced utility against FS vehicles, because<BR>
we tend to rely on passive sensors. In Ditzie's opinion, emitting is bad for<BR>
your health on a modern battlefield.<BR>
<BR>
We still have terminal defense to deal with.<BR>
<BR>
OK, grav missiles are hell on wheels from a speed and agility point of view,<BR>
and the plasma-beam warhead (build a 10 kilo one shot Plasma Gun) is nasty.<BR>
<BR>
Build some mean and orney TL9 grav missiles, and we'll see what sort of<BR>
problem they present to TL9 point defense (including ERA and ESA).<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> As and aside, how much are you putting into vehicle maintenance, recovery<BR>
> and repair?  What percentage of you vehicle fall prey to mechanical<BR>
> problems?<BR>
><BR>
> No system is 100% reliable.  Having spent some time under arms, I can tell<BR>
> you that tankers spend a lot of time maintaining their vehicles.  And they<BR>
> break down and wear out. How many vehicles doe you expect to lose to<BR>
> mechanical faults and wear?<BR>
<BR>
Maintainence is just one of those things about modern war. You are going to<BR>
have a tail.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure about the exact TOE, but I think a troop of 4 vehicles, plus<BR>
one 'allocated spare' is about right. As far as infantry go, we get one APC<BR>
per squad of 2 fireteams, and three squads per company plus the Company<BR>
assets (PD gun and an AT weapon of some sort).<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
> (still enjoying this thread thoroughly)<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, any time in the service Ian?<BR>
<BR>
Having Lupus (SLE - my immune system took lessons off Lt Calley - it has<BR>
problems telling the gooks from the friendlies, so sometimes it wastes<BR>
everything, just to be sure) , I am completely draft- and volunteer-proof.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:46:53 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
><BR>
> (2)  Fire Control Locks:  I now understand why a lock is needed at time of<BR>
detonation.  But, it<BR>
> doesn't seem to be necessary at time of launch.<BR>
<BR>
I'd rule that it isnt.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> (3)  Missile Guidance:<BR>
> Where are the costs ?<BR>
> controlled - command guidance unit + comm receiver<BR>
> semi-independent - comm transceiver + sensor<BR>
> fully-independent - smart seeker + sensor<BR>
><BR>
> The primary cost driver is the sensor.  Given a target acquisition range<BR>
of 30 k km then a<BR>
> PEMS array of 12.5 (0.5 MCr), active array of 11 (0.2 MCr), or LIDAR of<BR>
13.5 (0.25 MCr) would<BR>
> be required.  A smart seeker is only 0.001 MCr.  All prices are based on<BR>
TL 15.  Given lower<BR>
> TLs the cost increases, but only escalates for active sensors.<BR>
<BR>
Problem is, such a low-end sensor is going to get jammed or spoofed.<BR>
<BR>
MCr 125 buys you a Sens 13.5 PEMS Jammer at TL15 (it's MCr 250 at TL12).<BR>
This jammer is a factor of 50 more powerful than a Sens 12.5 PEMS on a<BR>
missile. Likewise, a Sense 12 AEMS Jammer is MCr 40 at TL15, and MCr 100 at<BR>
TL12. I guess sand blocks LIDARs as well.<BR>
<BR>
These are easy to pay for in a real warship.<BR>
<BR>
> (4)  Penetration Value:<BR>
><BR>
> FFSv2 doesn't state how to calculate the PV for certain weapons--Namely,<BR>
lasers, PAWS,<BR>
> and fusion/plasma weapons.<BR>
><BR>
> Working backwards from the stats given for det-laser missiles, I've<BR>
determined that<BR>
> PV = intensity * 2.86.  Since 2.86 is the toughness for hard steel then<BR>
this makes sense.<BR>
> Is this the correct formula ?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Only det lasers have PV and DV seperately. Everything else uses Damage<BR>
Value, which is sqrt(intensity), times 3.6 for lasers, 7.1 for PAWs and 40<BR>
for energy weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:09:55 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
<BR>
On 06/10/00 at 08:46 AM,  "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
>><BR>
>> (2)  Fire Control Locks:  I now understand why a lock is needed at time of<BR>
>detonation.  But, it<BR>
>> doesn't seem to be necessary at time of launch.<BR>
<BR>
>I'd rule that it isnt.<BR>
<BR>
At time of missile launch, I'd rule detection no, sensor lock, no. There's no reason you couldn't launch missiles on speculation, as decoys, or to form a screen.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:27:55 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/8/00 12:59 PM, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu<BR>
> issued forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Since the whole thing is a 'vote someone out till there's single<BR>
> > survivor', wonder how they're gonna break that last 1:1 tie ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought that that was an awful idea, it destroys the teamwork mentality<BR>
> needed. They should have an ejection process, but the way it's set up seems<BR>
> really silly.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, the whole thing is stupid...this is a game the Gilligans Island folk<BR>
would stand a chance of _winning_.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Same idea, better rules, drop some retired military types with<BR>
> supplies on a planet in groups. First group to escape the gravity well wins.<BR>
> Advertisments for survival gear and recruiting spots share time with cruise<BR>
> line promos.<BR>
<BR>
See the 'Eco-Challenge' races, produced, in fact, by the executive<BR>
producer of the American version of 'Survivors'. It ran on the Discovery<BR>
Channel; this years was kinda bad...abbreviated and boring. The previous<BR>
three year's races were much more interesting. <BR>
<BR>
Note carefully...the 'military types' in these races have gotten their<BR>
clocks cleaned big time, at least the first time they ran in it. There<BR>
was Team Scar, 4 Navy Seals and  their 'token' female team-mate, who<BR>
though she was an experienced expedition racer, was unable to convince<BR>
them that their way was not the way to run a race...they ended up<BR>
needing to be rescued...from the _water_. Man I'll bet _they_ got more<BR>
than a little razzed about that.<BR>
<BR>
The next year, they were _much_ chastened, ran a good race, and placed<BR>
quite highly. (in the top five, iirc) This year there were a bunch of<BR>
either Green Berets or Marine Recon types. Again, they did their<BR>
'tough-guy' routine and ended up needing rescue.<BR>
<BR>
The skills needed for winning survival races like this are typically<BR>
different from the ones neeed to do a covert insertion and attack.<BR>
Overlapping, but different.<BR>
<BR>
Running, biking, climbing, riding, swimming and kayacking several<BR>
hundred miles in five or so days is very gruelling, a lot more than even<BR>
the toughest special ops ttraining. You really have to know how to pace<BR>
yourself for that length.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2581<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:27:36 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:26:58 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA40752;<BR>
	Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:25:20 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:25:16 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA40721<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:25:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:25:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006092325.TAA40721@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2581<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2582</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/9/00 7:39:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2582<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Vulcans?!?<BR>
GTHG v0.21 on the web<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
Re: Ground Combat<BR>
Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
Re: ACQ Question<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:36:27 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> <BR>
> >"As you may have heard rumors Emperor Stryx's abdication<BR>
> >in 989 was forced at gunpoint. Since Imperial law clearly<BR>
> <BR>
> (Imperial chambers; later that night.  Present are Strephon<BR>
> his seneschal, and two Imperial guards.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Strephon (looking at datascreen):  OK, this is a problem.<BR>
> This is a problem.  I want this joker whacked and I mean<BR>
> pronto.  Your guy Chakrampong still onna planet?<BR>
> <BR>
> Seneschal (looking at another datascreen):  Yeah, boss, he<BR>
> and his guys are on their ship, but they aren't gonna lift<BR>
> for an hour.<BR>
> <BR>
> Strephon:  Great. Well, take care of it.  I've got a date<BR>
> with a hot empress tonight.<BR>
> <BR>
> Seneschal:  I'm on it, boss.  We'll have these two in<BR>
> icicles for ya before ya know it.<BR>
<BR>
Man you have him portrayed far too crudely.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Strephon (petting a cat in his lap, speaking in a low voice): "We have a<BR>
problem. These people, these ruffians, they have no respect for their<BR>
Emperor. They need to be taught respect, to made an example for others.<BR>
Do you understand me, consigl^h^h^h^h seneschal?"<BR>
<BR>
Senechal: "Certainly godfa^h^h^h^hEmperor. I'll have some of our people<BR>
take care of it immediately."<BR>
<BR>
Strephon: "Good..now go, I wish to be alone with my thoughts..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:54:01 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Vulcans?!?<BR>
<BR>
>>Is your Vulcan is going to defend against mortars and<BR>
>> other indirect fire assets?  What prevents the company PD from becoming a<BR>
>> target itself.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>The Vulcan is specifically there to defend against mortars and such.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 Bwa ha ha ..<BR>
<BR>
<sniff><BR>
<BR>
 Sorry, but I had this mental picture of the pointy-eared variety...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:03:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: GTHG v0.21 on the web<BR>
<BR>
For those people who like high guard, but want to use GURPS Traveller: I wrote a conversion.  It isn't precisely canonical for GURPS (volume-based manuever drives, armor has volume, a few things like that) but it's pretty accurate to high guard.  Comments, suggestions for improvements, etc welcome.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/gthg.html<BR>
<BR>
(the site as a whole is kinda broken.  Ignore it for now, I'll get it up<BR>
eventually).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:54:01 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
(Note: Values for Range, Influence, R&D, and Ownership have been<BR>
modified from the original UCP format to match John Wood's post. <BR>
Additionally, the value "S" [for "Special"] has been added for Public<BR>
Image and Paranoia, to reflect variable values for these fields.)<BR>
<BR>
The following UCP is for M1100:<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards: 5-DB(S)-CDD PubW Manu7 Svc3 Non0 A6(S)    Im<BR>
<BR>
Name:           AuricTech Shipyards, LIC<BR>
HQ:             Trin's Veil/Trin 3235 Spinward Marches<BR>
Employees:      5 (250,000)<BR>
Range:          D (Multi Sector)<BR>
Influence:      B (Multi Subsector)<BR>
Public Image:   3/7/A (military/general public/budget analysts)<BR>
R&D:            C (20%)<BR>
Turnover (Cr):  D (tens of TCr [exact figures unavailable])<BR>
Profit (Cr):    C (TCr [exact figures unavailable])<BR>
Nature:         Pub (Publicly listed company)<BR>
Areas:          Manu 70% (Manufacturing [spacecraft])<BR>
                Svc  25% (Service [licensing])<BR>
                Non  05% (Non-classifiable)<BR>
Tradition:      A (open)<BR>
Corp Politics:  6 (a fair amount)<BR>
Paranoia:       5/8 (civilian/military projects)<BR>
Nationality:    Im (Third Imperium)<BR>
<BR>
Current ownership (as of 1100): Hortalez et Cie 24%, Noble Families 19%,<BR>
AuricTech employees 17%, Ling Standard Products 14%, Imperial Family 5%,<BR>
Thermopylae Lines 2%, Other 19%<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards, LIC, was founded on Sylea in IE 6 by Marcus<BR>
Weishaupt, a businessman of Solomani ancestry.  Its first contract was<BR>
to construct standard 100-ton scout/couriers for the Imperial<BR>
Interstellar Scout Service (IISS).  Within 5 standard years, AuricTech<BR>
began building ships designed in-house.  The first commercially<BR>
successful AuricTech design was the C20-2 light transport, a 100-ton<BR>
ship that carries 20 middle passengers at up to jump-2.  The first of<BR>
the _Electra_ series of 1000-ton yachts (procured by the Imperial Navy<BR>
as the _Isabel_ class VIP transport/C3I ship) cemented AuricTech<BR>
Shipyards' reputation as a producer of quality civilian and military<BR>
ships.<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech products in the early decades of the Imperium range from the<BR>
UA-1 and UA-2 30-ton ships boats to the 160,000-ton _Agincourt_ class<BR>
battleship.<BR>
<BR>
As the Imperium has expanded, AuricTech has shifted its base of<BR>
operations to the Spinward Marches.  By 1100, AuricTech has become a<BR>
major supplier of warships (especially cruisers) to the Imperial Navy<BR>
and IISS, with shipyards at Mora, Trin, and Lunion.  AuricTech Shipyards<BR>
has remained a player in the civilian market, and has recently signed a<BR>
contract with Thermopylae Lines to provide several new designs of<BR>
freighters and passenger liners.<BR>
<BR>
CEO (M1100):  Jenifer C. Rearden-Taggart<BR>
<BR>
Copyright 2000, John Groth.  As long as authorship credit is given,<BR>
permission is granted to publish this material without further<BR>
compensation.  (In other words, feel free to use this in _101<BR>
Corporations_ or other works; all I ask is that you give me credit for<BR>
writing it.)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:31:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
> George Smiley...;-)<BR>
<BR>
Huh?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:32:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> (2)  Fire Control Locks:  I now understand why a lock is needed at<BR>
> time of detonation.  But, it doesn't seem to be necessary at time of<BR>
> launch.<BR>
<BR>
Then how do you get the missile to go in the right direction?<BR>
<BR>
In space combat, a target is not a set of co-ordinates. It's a<BR>
timestamp *and* the position and vector the object had at the specified<BR>
time. <BR>
<BR>
>  From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> *Cost*. Controlled are cheap. Semi-independent are expensive. Fully <BR>
>> independent are *hideously* expensive.<BR>
><BR>
> Where are the costs ?<BR>
> controlled - command guidance unit + comm receiver<BR>
> semi-independent - comm transceiver + sensor<BR>
<BR>
You need a computer to convert the sensor readings into an intercept<BR>
heading.<BR>
<BR>
> fully-independent - smart seeker + sensor<BR>
<BR>
And this needs need a computer *and* some fancy programming. <BR>
<BR>
Though the rules may not agree.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:38:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Over on alt.callahans someone had a silly quuote that I thought I'd<BR>
>> throw at some of the crazed weapons designers here.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> "Yes, you need a REALLY big weapon to Hunt Hurricanes!"<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> FW190<BR>
><BR>
> :-)<BR>
<BR>
Huh?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:08:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> See the 'Eco-Challenge' races, produced, in fact, by the executive<BR>
> producer of the American version of 'Survivors'. It ran on the Discovery<BR>
> Channel; this years was kinda bad...abbreviated and boring. The previous<BR>
> three year's races were much more interesting. <BR>
><BR>
> Note carefully...the 'military types' in these races have gotten their<BR>
> clocks cleaned big time, at least the first time they ran in it. There<BR>
> was Team Scar, 4 Navy Seals and  their 'token' female team-mate, who<BR>
> though she was an experienced expedition racer, was unable to convince<BR>
> them that their way was not the way to run a race...they ended up<BR>
> needing to be rescued...from the _water_. Man I'll bet _they_ got more<BR>
> than a little razzed about that.<BR>
><BR>
> The next year, they were _much_ chastened, ran a good race, and placed<BR>
> quite highly. (in the top five, iirc) This year there were a bunch of<BR>
> either Green Berets or Marine Recon types. Again, they did their<BR>
> 'tough-guy' routine and ended up needing rescue.<BR>
><BR>
> The skills needed for winning survival races like this are typically<BR>
> different from the ones neeed to do a covert insertion and attack.<BR>
> Overlapping, but different.<BR>
><BR>
> Running, biking, climbing, riding, swimming and kayacking several<BR>
> hundred miles in five or so days is very gruelling, a lot more than even<BR>
> the toughest special ops ttraining. You really have to know how to pace<BR>
> yourself for that length.<BR>
<BR>
And as has been suggested before an extended survival test along the<BR>
lines of the one in Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky" (but without the<BR>
unplanned "extension" :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 20:32:08 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > FW190<BR>
> ><BR>
> > :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Huh?<BR>
<BR>
The Focke-Wulf 190 fighter, well-suited for killing Hawker Hurricane<BR>
fighters.  Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, it was not really equal to<BR>
the task of dealing with American P-47 Thunderbolts or P-51 Mustangs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:34:08 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:41:06 -0400 (EDT), "Andrew<BR>
Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>An ever better idea just occured to me. This senario occurs near the border <BR>
>between the Imperium and Solomani Confederation. The PCs are invited to <BR>
>a remote hunting lodge for a meeting with an unnammed factor. They arrive <BR>
>at the lodge (after some tredidation and normal paranoia) and are met by <BR>
>several rather fit men dressed in smart but casual civilian clothes. After a <BR>
>through search for concealed recording devices (they are allowed to keep <BR>
>any sidearms), they are ushered into a conferene room. There (much to <BR>
>their suprise) they find seated at the table a senior co-ordinator from <BR>
>SolSec and a high official of the Imperial Ministry of Justice.<BR>
<BR>
{begin "Excessive-pomposity"}<BR>
<BR>
By Order of the Most Puissant Community of Traveller Fans, as<BR>
Represented by the Traveller Mailing List:<BR>
<BR>
You are hereby commanded to expand upon this idea, committing to<BR>
a full-detail, adventure-style document, to the utmost bestest<BR>
[sic] of your ability, and submit the resulting work to a Major<BR>
Organization that publishes Traveller fan materials, such as<BR>
Steve Jackson Games or British Isles Traveller Support, or,<BR>
failing submission to such organization, to a Major Fan Site,<BR>
such as Freelance Traveller or Downport.<BR>
<BR>
(Failure to comply this command will cause you to be labelled a<BR>
"selfish meanie for keeping the good stuff for yourself, instead<BR>
of sharing")<BR>
<BR>
{end "Excessive-pomposity"}<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:12:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> It's the "Consumable Nuclear Rocket" or "Burning Wall".<BR>
>> You don't want to be on the same continent when this monster lights off.<BR>
><BR>
>> It is an amusing commentary on the times that the book<BR>
>> thought that this was an attractive propulsion system, <BR>
>> if only the rapid reaction travel could be slowed down.<BR>
>> Just think, a propulsion system that *depends* upon<BR>
>> vaporizing reactor grade uranium and spraying it in all directions!<BR>
><BR>
> Hm.  It's unclear from that exactly what sort of exhaust velocity we're<BR>
> talking about.  I wonder if some variant on the design could be used to make <BR>
> a fission shaped charge/SEFOP ;)<BR>
<BR>
Here's a comment from a followup post:<BR>
<BR>
>	If I'm reading the graph in the book properly,<BR>
>	the consumable nuclear rocket is estimated to have<BR>
>	an Isp of around 10e3.5 and a thrust/weight radio<BR>
>	of about 10e1 .<BR>
<BR>
So that's an Isp od around 3000, and a thrust to weight ratio of 10:1<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like an interesting way to make a missile. Design it right and<BR>
maybe the missile can fire shots at the target the whole time it is<BR>
closing. <BR>
<BR>
That'd make folks nervous....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:40:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/10/00 at 08:46 AM,  "Katharine Whitchurch" <BR>
> <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>> From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
>>> Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> (2)  Fire Control Locks:  I now understand why a lock is needed at time of<BR>
>>detonation.  But, it<BR>
>>> doesn't seem to be necessary at time of launch.<BR>
><BR>
>>I'd rule that it isnt.<BR>
><BR>
> At time of missile launch, I'd rule detection no, sensor lock, no. There's <BR>
> no reason you couldn't launch missiles on speculation, as decoys, or to form <BR>
> a screen.<BR>
<BR>
Depends. Many (if not most!) types of drive that are going to be used<BR>
in missiles don't have a throttle. Once they light off, they go at full<BR>
thrust until they detonate or they run out of fuel. <BR>
<BR>
So launching before you have a target wastes drive time.<BR>
<BR>
SIMs and FIMs *could* be ejected from the launcher and told not to<BR>
start their drives until a preset time or condition occured. But <BR>
unless the ship isn't accelerating, they'll fall behind. Of course, if<BR>
you are being chased, that may be *exactly* what you want. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, I imagine that some missiles will be in "box launchers" that are<BR>
the same size as a common cargo container. After all, it makes them<BR>
handleable by standard cargo handling gear. And there may even be<BR>
launchers that accept the container as a "box magazine". <BR>
<BR>
In any case, Ejecting a few of those along with some cargo (also in<BR>
containers) will result in a real surprise as by the time they get<BR>
close enough to tell the difference, they'll be dead meat for the<BR>
missiles. <BR>
<BR>
So if I was selling missiles to merchant vessels, I think an option to<BR>
use a "crate" of missiles that way (say by opening an access panel and<BR>
inserting a control pack that links to fire control on the ship) would<BR>
be a good selling point. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:01:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ground Combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> BTW, any time in the service Ian?<BR>
><BR>
> Having Lupus (SLE - my immune system took lessons off Lt Calley - it has<BR>
> problems telling the gooks from the friendlies, so sometimes it wastes<BR>
> everything, just to be sure) , I am completely draft- and volunteer-proof.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like me, I tried to jion at 18 and they decided that my asthma<BR>
made me 4F. Now I'm over 45, and have other problems, so they'd have to<BR>
be *real* desperate to take me. Troops who need "life support gear"<g><BR>
to avoid dying in their sleep (and who snore at well above 85dB without<BR>
it!) aren't exactly "combat ready". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:59:18<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Darth Maul Sketch.<BR>
<BR>
At 04:27 PM 6/9/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>See the 'Eco-Challenge' races, produced, in fact, by the executive<BR>
>producer of the American version of 'Survivors'. It ran on the Discovery<BR>
>Channel; this years was kinda bad...abbreviated and boring. The previous<BR>
>three year's races were much more interesting. <BR>
<BR>
I love those things.  The Discovery Store has them all on tape, and if you<BR>
ever wanted to get good ideas to mess with characters on a wildnerness<BR>
campaign, this is the place.<BR>
<BR>
>The next year, they were _much_ chastened, ran a good race, and placed<BR>
>quite highly. (in the top five, iirc) This year there were a bunch of<BR>
>either Green Berets or Marine Recon types. Again, they did their<BR>
>'tough-guy' routine and ended up needing rescue.<BR>
<BR>
Send some Rangers next time. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Running, biking, climbing, riding, swimming and kayacking several<BR>
>hundred miles in five or so days is very gruelling, a lot more than even<BR>
>the toughest special ops ttraining. You really have to know how to pace<BR>
>yourself for that length.<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't it the Marines who decided to take the "shortcut" through the bamboo<BR>
and got hopelessly lost?<BR>
<BR>
The best part of the Patagonia race were the two teams who came in last.<BR>
Argentina and South Africa, as I recall, decided to combine their efforts<BR>
and came in together.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:08:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ Question<BR>
<BR>
At 05:11 PM 6/9/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Regarding facing and combat in ACQ:<BR>
><BR>
>The movement section tell us that it takes 1AP to change facing up to<BR>
90degrees.  From this, I make the assumption that the facing of a combatant<BR>
is important.<BR>
><BR>
>But, in either combat section, I can't find any rule penalizing a<BR>
combatant for attacking anyone to the sided or behind you.  Is there such a<BR>
rule?<BR>
<BR>
There was.  We evidently dropped on the way to your house.<BR>
<BR>
To be clear, in the context of the six-second round, the action-reaction<BR>
task and it's AP cost handle the swiviling of the body to bring new targets<BR>
under fire.  The 90 degrees applies only to movement.<BR>
><BR>
>If not, I would propose something like this:<BR>
><BR>
>Facing during Ranged Combat:<BR>
>A combatant can fire on any target in their front 180 degress (90 degrees<BR>
to either side of their facing).  A target in the back 180 degrees may be<BR>
engaged with any one-handed weapon, but the combatant suffers a +1 Diff<BR>
Level as well as having to fire the weapon one handed.<BR>
<BR>
This is interesting, I'll take a look at it.<BR>
><BR>
>Also, although APs are used to defend in a melee attack, perhaps it should<BR>
be made harder to attack someone behind you or defend an attack from the rear:<BR>
><BR>
>Facing during melee combat:<BR>
>A combatant may only attack a target in their front 180 degrees.<BR>
>Any defender being attacked from their rear 180 degrees suffers +1 Diff<BR>
Level to their Block or Dodge.  A successful dodge or block allows the<BR>
defender to turn to face their attacker.<BR>
><BR>
>Also, ACQ doesn't actually say how close you have to be to engage in melee<BR>
with a target.  I'm assuming it's within Contact (3m) range. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Depends upon howe long your arms are. :)  Actually, combatants must be<BR>
adjacenet to each other, within a meter or so, to intiate a melee attack.<BR>
<BR>
Dom, mark this for an errata file.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:18:16 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
On 9 Jun 00, at 21:34, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:41:06 -0400 (EDT), "Andrew<BR>
> Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> {begin "Excessive-pomposity"}<BR>
<BR>
> By Order of the Most Puissant Community of Traveller Fans, as<BR>
> Represented by the Traveller Mailing List:<BR>
<BR>
> You are hereby commanded to expand upon this idea, committing to<BR>
> a full-detail, adventure-style document, to the utmost bestest<BR>
> [sic] of your ability, and submit the resulting work to a Major<BR>
> Organization that publishes Traveller fan materials, such as<BR>
> Steve Jackson Games or British Isles Traveller Support, or,<BR>
> failing submission to such organization, to a Major Fan Site,<BR>
> such as Freelance Traveller or Downport.<BR>
<BR>
Regretably I am currently fully extended with another Traveller writing <BR>
project at the moment. However, it has been duely placed on the "To Do <BR>
List".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:38:31 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender (long)<BR>
<BR>
Dateline:  Trin's Veil/Trin 3235 Spinward Marches  122-1117<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards is pleased to announce the debut of the _Kingfish_<BR>
class of commerce raider/tenders.<BR>
<BR>
**begin specification transmission**<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender<BR>
<BR>
Design System:  FF&S2 (Akins spreadsheet ver 3.2, with correction of<BR>
G-comp power consumption IAW ver 3.3)<BR>
<BR>
Tons: 5000std ( SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic)<BR>
Dimensions: 73.1m x 36.3m x 36.3m<BR>
Volume: 70000 m3<BR>
Cargo: 240 std (8 x Large hatch/8 x 40-ton cargo handlers) <BR>
Mass (L/C): 53784t/48323t<BR>
Maintenance Points: 1832<BR>
Passengers High/Med/Low:  None <BR>
Crew: 53 / 139 <BR>
Frozen Watch: 0<BR>
Cost: 6276.872 MCr <BR>
Tech Level: 15<BR>
Size: 9 <BR>
<BR>
Electronics<BR>
Controls: Holographic, High automation. 30xFltComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).<BR>
5xFibComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190).<BR>
Bridge.<BR>
Communications: 2 x Radio (1,000 AU, 0.2 MW). 4 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0<BR>
MW).<BR>
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50 mkm], 0.05 MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5 mkm] LP, 50 MW).<BR>
4x LIDAR (15 [2 mkm], 2.5 MW<BR>
Survey/Science: None<BR>
ECM: 1 x Radio Jammer (1,000 AU, 0.4 MW). 1 x Deceptive Jammer (11, 0.16<BR>
MW)<BR>
Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:0 (-0.5 at 8983MW, -0.5 at 1168MW), Act:-0.5,<BR>
Neu:0, Grav:1<BR>
<BR>
Performance <BR>
4 Jump (500 std/pc fuel)<BR>
6 / 6.6 Maneuver (Thruster: 8001 MW)<BR>
No Contra-grav <BR>
5000 kph/5000 kph Atmosphere Maximum <BR>
3750 kph/3750 kph Atmosphere Cruise <BR>
5 Power (Fusion: 11675 MW,1yr) <BR>
0 Battery <BR>
2087.7 Fuel (Scoop: 5/Purif: 48, 18 MW) <BR>
136/4/25/35 Accommodations (Small Stateroom/Large Stateroom/Low<BR>
Berth/Emgy Low Berth) <BR>
3640 Life Sup. (Type: Extended, Good Food/Storage) <BR>
6 G-Comp <BR>
12 x Sandcaster (AV: 97/Cans: 27)<BR>
172 Meson Screen (9.245 MW)<BR>
30 [115] Armor, 38 Structure <BR>
<BR>
Weapons:<BR>
12 x 81 MJ Twin Laser Turret (+6) 1 /4-4-4-4 [2, 400/23-23-23-23] (Point<BR>
Defense ROF: 800)<BR>
1 x Missile Bay Auto 4/4 (Mag: 76, MFD: 500 kkm) w/80 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6G12<BR>
1000 AU<BR>
1 x 1876 MJ NPAW Light Spinal Mount (+6) 2/9-9-9-9 [1,<BR>
100/308-308-308-308]<BR>
<BR>
Features:<BR>
50 x Airlock<BR>
1 x Docking Umbilical<BR>
1 x Electronic Shop (6 std)<BR>
1 x Machine Shop (10 std)<BR>
1 x Laboratory (8 std)<BR>
1 x Sickbay (8 std)<BR>
1 x Armory (5 std)<BR>
1 x Gym (2.5 std)<BR>
1 x Lounge (31 std)<BR>
2 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 50 ea)<BR>
2 x Full Galley (Cap: 70 ea)<BR>
1 x Ship's locker (2.5 std.) <BR>
 <BR>
Small Craft:<BR>
1 x Docking Ring (50 std)<BR>
4 x SL Universal Grapple (100 std)<BR>
<BR>
Backups <BR>
Drives: None <BR>
Screens: None<BR>
Communications: None <BR>
Sensors: 2 x PEMS (14 [50 mkm]).  1 x AEMS (12 [1.6 mkm]). 4 x LIDAR<BR>
(14.5 [500 kkm]).<BR>
ECM: None <BR>
Power & Fuel: None<BR>
<BR>
Crew Details 4 x Maneuver. 30 x Engr. 14 x Gunner. 13 x Screen. 18 x<BR>
Flight. 19 x Command. 36 x Troops. 4 x Steward. 1 x Medical.<BR>
<BR>
**end specification transmission**<BR>
<BR>
The _Kingfish_ class of commerce raider/tender is capable of meeting two<BR>
very different requirements for the Imperial Navy (IN) and the Imperial<BR>
Interstellar Scout Service (IISS).  As a commerce raider, the _Kingfish_<BR>
class not only represents a formidable combatant in its own right, but<BR>
also carries (in streamlined 100-ton Universal cradles) up to four<BR>
_Savage_ class scout/Q-ships (or _Snipe_ class SDB variants), in any<BR>
combination, each of which is capable of wreaking untold havoc on enemy<BR>
shipping.  In a more peaceful vein, the IISS will find the _Kingfish_<BR>
class useful in several roles:  quarantine enforcer, scout/courier<BR>
tender, and armed X-boat tender.  As a ship capable of meeting the needs<BR>
of two different services, the _Kingfish_ class is a cost-effective<BR>
solution to many situations.<BR>
<BR>
Both the IN and the IISS will find that the _Kingfish_ class addresses<BR>
their needs.  With Jump-4, 6-G performance while fully loaded, the<BR>
_Kingfish_ class  provides a long-legged rapid response in any<BR>
situation.  Its proven 1876 MJ NPAW Light Spinal Mount can make short<BR>
work of blockade runners, ethically-challenged merchants, enemy<BR>
merchants, or enemy escort-class vessels.  Meanwhile, with 12<BR>
independent sandcaster mounts and 12 dual-purpose laser turrets, the<BR>
_Kingfish_ class is well-defended against hostile laser and missile<BR>
fire.  Equipped with on-board facilities for electronic maintenance,<BR>
parts fabrication, and laboratory research, the _Kingfish_ class can<BR>
extend both its own range and that of its carried craft.  Further, with<BR>
60 dtons of extra fuel tankage, as well as on-board refining capability,<BR>
the _Kingfish_ class is well able to support flight operations of any<BR>
embarked craft.  With four 60-dton cargo bays, the _Kingfish_ class can<BR>
easily fit enough additional fuel tankage to support demanding X-boat<BR>
operations.<BR>
<BR>
A typical commerce raiding loadout for a _Kingfish_ includes two<BR>
_Savage_ class armed decoy scouts (MCr 128.368 each), and two _Snipe_<BR>
class SDBs (MCr 165.592 each).  Adding the cost of the _Kingfish_ class<BR>
ship itself (MCr 6276.872), a highly-capable raiding unit can be<BR>
purchased for only MCr 6570.832.  The IN can purchase eight such units<BR>
for only BCr 52.567, well under the BCr 55.2 budget for the current<BR>
(THUDDD 12)commerce raider competition.<BR>
<BR>
_Kingfish_ class ships are named for various sports teams.*<BR>
<BR>
(Note:  While the _Kingfish_ class meets the design specifications of<BR>
THUDDD 12, I believe that fairness [I'm running THUDDD 12] precludes me<BR>
from entering this ship, as AuricTech already has entered the baseline<BR>
ship for THUDDD 12 [the _Sculpin_ class].)<BR>
<BR>
*The name ship is named for the Baton Rouge Kingfish, an East Coast<BR>
Hockey League franchise.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2582<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:39:09 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:38:47 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA48171;<BR>
	Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:37:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:37:12 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA48120<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:37:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:37:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006100237.WAA48120@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2582<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2583</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/10/00 1:00:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 10 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2583<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
design request<BR>
Re: design request<BR>
CORRECTION: _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender<BR>
Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
GRIP, Macs, Trav, et al<BR>
RE: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
George Smiley<BR>
Re: GRIP, Macs, Trav, et al<BR>
RE: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
RE: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: ground combat B<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:39:05 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
on 6/9/00 6:38 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> Over on alt.callahans someone had a silly quuote that I thought I'd<BR>
>>> throw at some of the crazed weapons designers here.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> "Yes, you need a REALLY big weapon to Hunt Hurricanes!"<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> FW190<BR>
>> <BR>
>> :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Huh?<BR>
<BR>
Focke-Wulf 190, Just the thing for those pesky Hawker Hurricanes 8)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:41:36 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft missile questions<BR>
<BR>
On 06/09/00 at 06:40 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>> At time of missile launch, I'd rule detection no, sensor lock, no. There's <BR>
>> no reason you couldn't launch missiles on speculation, as decoys, or to form <BR>
>> a screen.<BR>
<BR>
>Depends. Many (if not most!) types of drive that are going to be used in<BR>
>missiles don't have a throttle. Once they light off, they go at full<BR>
>thrust until they detonate or they run out of fuel. <BR>
<BR>
>So launching before you have a target wastes drive time.<BR>
<BR>
Sure it does.  I didn't say that launching missiles before detection<BR>
was always a *smart* thing to do, just that I wouldn't rule it<BR>
"illegal" (or impossible).  <g> As I see it, if you guess right and<BR>
launch in the right direction you have a small advantage, if you<BR>
guess wrong you are at a disadvantage, Although, the odds are<BR>
against you guessing right sometimes you have to take your chances.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, if I was intending to move through a potentially hostile<BR>
system, I might want to put out a spread of missiles ahead of my<BR>
course, equip them with folding sensor arrays and use them as<BR>
passive sensor drones.  I would *hope* to retrieve them at some<BR>
point, too.  Of course, the thrust agencies I had available might<BR>
make that less beneficial...more benefit with Tplates, less with<BR>
HEPlaR, *much* less with chemical.  I suppose that technically makes<BR>
them "drones" and not "missiles", but I'm not sure there's that much<BR>
difference except in payload between a det-laser missile and a<BR>
sensor carrying drone.<BR>
<BR>
On a related subject, IMTU I separate Boogy Detection from Target<BR>
Lock this way.<BR>
<BR>
Detection means you know *something* is out there and have a pretty<BR>
good direction on it.  Detection is NOT, normally, good enough for a<BR>
shot, although nothing stops you from taking pot shots with almost<BR>
no chance of hitting.  You can detect with passive sensors at long<BR>
range.<BR>
<BR>
Target Lock means that you have direction, range and probably a good<BR>
vector on the target's movement.  Locks ARE good enough for a shot<BR>
with some possibility of hitting.  Active sensors have shorter<BR>
detection ranges than passives, but give you good locks on whatever<BR>
they do detect.<BR>
<BR>
SOP for a smaller warship (or raider) is to scan with passives until<BR>
you detect boogies.  Then if you intend to attack you light them up<BR>
with active to get a lock and pass the data off to the gunners.<BR>
Otherwise you stay on passives and try to remain undetected.<BR>
<BR>
I don't involve large warships in my games, but they would seldom<BR>
travel alone.  I suspect it is SOP for some of their escort ships to<BR>
be running their actives all the time gathering data for<BR>
transmission to the big guns while the big ship stays quiet until<BR>
"pinged" and then goes to active jamming.  Better to use the<BR>
outriders for your eyes, at least as long as you have them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:38:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: design request<BR>
<BR>
I need Famille Spofulam , X-tek or one of the other "crazed weapons<BR>
designers" to contact me about about doing a design. I'd do it myself,<BR>
but I don't have the required rules. It's actually pretty darn simple,<BR>
too. <BR>
<BR>
And trust me, this will be a fun project. I just ask that if you decide<BR>
*not* to accept the "commission", you keep quiet until the device is<BR>
posted. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:08:25 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: design request<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I need Famille Spofulam , X-tek or one of the other "crazed weapons<BR>
> designers" to contact me about about doing a design. I'd do it myself,<BR>
> but I don't have the required rules. It's actually pretty darn simple,<BR>
> too.<BR>
> <BR>
> And trust me, this will be a fun project. I just ask that if you decide<BR>
> *not* to accept the "commission", you keep quiet until the device is<BR>
> posted.<BR>
<BR>
Send your specs to me, and I'll see if I can give it a go (I have CT<BR>
1-8, FF&S2, CSC, and GT [1st ed] rules available).  <BR>
<BR>
Note:  The US Army trusts me with Secret information....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:10:31 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: CORRECTION: _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> A typical commerce raiding loadout for a _Kingfish_ includes two<BR>
> _Savage_ class armed decoy scouts (MCr 128.368 each), and two _Snipe_<BR>
> class SDBs (MCr 165.592 each).  Adding the cost of the _Kingfish_ class<BR>
> ship itself (MCr 6276.872), a highly-capable raiding unit can be<BR>
> purchased for only MCr 6570.832.  The IN can purchase eight such units<BR>
> for only BCr 52.567, well under the BCr 55.2 budget for the current<BR>
> (THUDDD 12)commerce raider competition.<BR>
<BR>
OOOOPS!<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the cost of a _Kingfish_ and associated craft (two _Savage_<BR>
and two _Snipe_ class vessels, plus one T4 modular cutter) is BCr<BR>
6892.792.  This works out to a cost of BCr 55.14 for eight such units,<BR>
which is still under budget for THUDDD 12 (BCr 55.2).<BR>
<BR>
Note that changing the craft loadout will change the cost considerably. <BR>
However, the _Kingfish_ class is capable of maintaining 6-G acceleration<BR>
even when loaded with four _Snipe_ class SDBs (each of which masses more<BR>
than the standard _Suleiman_ class scout/courier or the _Savage_ class<BR>
armed decoy scout [I don't know about X-boats]).<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:18 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> Yikes!!!<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like something Familie Spofulam might have created in their early<BR>
days, don't you think?  =)<BR>
<BR>
> But what a way to retreat from a stronghold, and deny it to the enemy...<BR>
<BR>
At least temporarily<BR>
<BR>
Note: Your definition of "temporarily" may vary.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:24:19 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@jvlnet.com><BR>
Subject: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I'm not a real gearhead, but sometimes I just wanna have a <BR>
ship MY way.  So, what do you guys use for drawing out <BR>
deckplans?  Software I mean?  The big problem is getting the hex <BR>
background (I prefer hexes to squares).  Any suggestions would be <BR>
great (no, I'm not looking to invest tons o' cash into new software).<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:10:05 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> >Entering Vland was more or less her equivalent to Caesar crossing the<BR>
> >Rubicon.  Once she did that she would have been in open rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
> At that point, I doubt there was an authority capable of bringing the<BR>
> charge.  Also, right by means of fleet control had been established as a<BR>
> standard.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there was an "authority" capable of bringing the charge.  He just<BR>
lost the war.<BR>
<BR>
If Gustus had won, Arbellatra would have been just another traitor.  That<BR>
raises the question:  how many unsucessful wouldbe Barracks Emperors were<BR>
there?  Surely not all the plots and rebellions would have been successful.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, my idea is that the Archduke of Vland (under duress, of course!)<BR>
declared that since there was no legitimate Emperor, he was exercising his<BR>
authority to order Arbellatra to restore order in the Imperium.  This would<BR>
give Arbellatra a "legal" propaganda basis for her actions, not to mention<BR>
control of the Vland fleet.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, Arbellatra would have put the Archduke under house arrest<BR>
immediately after "accepting his orders".  <BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:43:34 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ok, I'm not a real gearhead, but sometimes I just wanna have a<BR>
> ship MY way.  So, what do you guys use for drawing out<BR>
> deckplans?  Software I mean?  The big problem is getting the hex<BR>
> background (I prefer hexes to squares).  Any suggestions would be<BR>
> great (no, I'm not looking to invest tons o' cash into new software).<BR>
<BR>
As a player, I've always figured that, if I need to see deckplans,<BR>
things have gone horribly wrong.  Therefore, I have never had much<BR>
interest in deckplans or deckplan-creating software.  However, I suspect<BR>
that Campaign Cartographer (someone else will have to give you the URL)<BR>
will meet your needs.  IIRC, it's not hideously expensive (I think it's<BR>
in the $50-$60 USD range, but I'm not sure), and it should support both<BR>
square-grid and hex-grid maps.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:47:26 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
<BR>
On 06/09/00 at 10:24 PM,  "James Pearson" <jdpearson@jvlnet.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Ok, I'm not a real gearhead, but sometimes I just wanna have a  ship MY<BR>
>way.  So, what do you guys use for drawing out <BR>
>deckplans?  Software I mean?  The big problem is getting the hex <BR>
>background (I prefer hexes to squares).  Any suggestions would be  great<BR>
>(no, I'm not looking to invest tons o' cash into new software).<BR>
<BR>
I use an old copy of Visio, but most any drawing program will do. I have used programs ranging from TurboCad to CorelDraw to Floorplan Plus before settling on Visio. Lots of people like Campaign Carteographier, but I haven't played with it so I can't give first hand info.<BR>
<BR>
To get the background you want a program that allows you to draw in layers. You put the hex or squares down on a background layer and draw the decks on layers above it. At least, that's how I do it. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:15:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 5:56 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 04:39 28.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>>I would say give it a try, its a bargain at twice the price!<BR>
>Hmm, i cant quite see myself gaming online. All the fun parts, like<BR>
>spontaneous interaction between players are just that much more THERE when<BR>
>playing FTF. The work of the GM is harder as well, having to plepare<BR>
>EVERYthing beforehand, and the pace seems slower as well due to the<BR>
>necessity of typing and reading instead of just talking.<BR>
><BR>
>Whats the appeal?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>---<BR>
>Volker A. Greimann<BR>
>greimann@geocities.com<BR>
><BR>
The appeal for me is getting to play.  I don't have anybody near me that<BR>
plays at all.  It would be great to play with some of you.   Can't really do<BR>
that in RL, at least not often.<BR>
It would be an honor to be able to play with some of you legends. (cough<BR>
cough)<BR>
<BR>
Honestly though it would really be fantastic.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:36:03 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On 06/09/00 at 08:15 PM,  "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>At 04:39 28.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>>>I would say give it a try, its a bargain at twice the price!<BR>
>>Hmm, i can t quite see myself gaming online. All the fun parts, like<BR>
>>spontaneous interaction between players are just that much more THERE when<BR>
>>playing FTF. The work of the GM is harder as well, having to plepare<BR>
>>EVERYthing beforehand, and the pace seems slower as well due to the<BR>
>>necessity of typing and reading instead of just talking.<BR>
<BR>
>>What s the appeal?<BR>
<BR>
>>Volker A. Greimann<BR>
>>greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
>The appeal for me is getting to play.  I don't have anybody near me that<BR>
>plays at all.  It would be great to play with some of you.   Can't really<BR>
>do that in RL, at least not often.<BR>
<BR>
Hear!  Hear!  I'm in the same boat.  I haven't been able to play a<BR>
FTF game of Traveller in years, but I can, and do, play by email and<BR>
IRC.  I haven't used GRIP yet, but I'd like to give it a shot, too.<BR>
<BR>
Now, I'll admit, playing online (in any form I've used) isn't quite<BR>
the same as FTF, but different doesn't mean devalued.  The premium<BR>
is more on writing than verbalizing, and (especially with PBEM) you<BR>
have to time to concentrate on making a *good* move rather than<BR>
jumpping in with a fast move.  Games move more slowly and tend to be<BR>
less combat rich, in my experience, but more rich in interactions<BR>
and characterization.  <BR>
<BR>
Playing online also gives you a chance to play with people from all<BR>
over the world, I'm in games with people from Germany, Austria (or<BR>
Spain depending on how you look at it), England, Canada, Australia,<BR>
and all over the US, and their diverse backgrounds and points of<BR>
view bring qualities to the games that would be hard to match in a<BR>
FTF.<BR>
<BR>
I *really* want to get into some FTF games again, one of days, but<BR>
even if I do I won't stop playing online.  FTF gives you one set of<BR>
pleasures, online gives you another.<BR>
<BR>
>It would be an honor to be able to play with some of you legends. (cough<BR>
>cough)<BR>
<BR>
You know, I am playing with some of the TML legends and it *is* an<BR>
honor....sometimes it's a pain.  <g> I just wish I had the time to<BR>
play in more online games so I could play with even more of you.<BR>
<BR>
>Honestly though it would really be fantastic.<BR>
<BR>
No argument from me.  I mentioned this last year and it bounced<BR>
around for a while and nothing came of it, but...<BR>
<BR>
Wouldn't it be nice to have a Traveller Convention where all of us<BR>
could meet, argue, and play Traveller for an entire weekend?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:03:24 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: GRIP, Macs, Trav, et al<BR>
<BR>
on 6/9/00 9:36 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Wouldn't it be nice to have a Traveller Convention where all of us<BR>
> could meet, argue, and play Traveller for an entire weekend?<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
Sounds too good to be true.  GRIP sound very interesting, except that I've<BR>
got a Mac and a solaris box here.  No room for my PC laptop here.  Plus I'm<BR>
running Win2000 server on it.  ARRRG.<BR>
<BR>
Fortunately, I've been able to do FTF trav for most of the last 20 years.<BR>
Still doing CT.  We started recording the weekly games on our website last<BR>
year, and at the rate we're going, should be able to write a few novels.<BR>
<BR>
We are only sort of canon, and it gets a bit strange sometimes, but if you<BR>
are curious, check out the game notes at http://www.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect one could mine the notes of our space opera for a decent adventure<BR>
or two.  We've got our version of Regina mapped out pretty well,<BR>
particularly the starport.<BR>
<BR>
I'd love to get your comments.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, If anyone out there attends NorWesCon, OryCon or any other North West<BR>
conventions and want to play Traveller, let me know.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:36:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Edrickson wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
<snip><BR>
> It is an amusing commentary on the times that the book<BR>
> thought that this was an attractive propulsion system, <BR>
> if only the rapid reaction travel could be slowed down.<BR>
> Just think, a propulsion system that *depends* upon<BR>
> vaporizing reactor grade uranium and spraying it in all directions!<BR>
<BR>
And what exactly is the problem with this ?<BR>
<BR>
It's no worse than fusion torches, ion drives, ram-scoops or Ol' Bang Bang<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:36:32 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: George Smiley<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:31:43 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> 4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
>> George Smiley...;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Huh?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
From "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" and other books by John LeCarre.<BR>
<BR>
If you haven't read any of LeCarre's books I sugest you do so before running<BR>
any spy type adventures. Prepare to be totaly depressed however as he<BR>
doesn't really believe in happy endings.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:44:04 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP, Macs, Trav, et al<BR>
<BR>
>Sounds too good to be true.  GRIP sound very interesting, except that I've<BR>
>got a Mac and a solaris box here.  No room for my PC laptop here.  Plus I'm<BR>
>running Win2000 server on it.  ARRRG.<BR>
<BR>
We are planning to eventually port to Linux and Mac, pending the reasonable success of the Windows version. On the Win2K machine, I imagine GRIP should run fine (it is developed on a Win2K Professional OS), but I haven't tested in on the server version of Win2K.<BR>
<BR>
You can actually run GRIP (or any other Windows program) on a Mac, using a great program called VirtualPC (from Connectix http://www.connectix.com I believe). It actually includes Windows, and lets you run a Win session as a Mac window. The main drawback (and a big one I admit), is the last price I saw was around $150.00. It also is not as fast as a native PC running windows. On the plus side, it works surprisingly well, one of our group is a Mac user and used VirtualPC for a long time to play in our games back when we first started developing and testing GRIP.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:53:51 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR>
> > 4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
> > George Smiley...;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Huh ?<BR>
<BR>
George Smiley, a character from John Le Carre's "The Spy Who Came In From<BR>
The Cold",  "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" and "Smiley's People".<BR>
<BR>
Le Carre is _the_ writer of espionage fiction.  Not flashy like Ian Fleming<BR>
or Tom Clancy, far more realistic.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:44:18 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
Andrew wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>A further complication is that both the Confederation and Imperium believe<BR>
>that the Datahaven has moles in their bureacracy supplying them with<BR>
>information. Also both want copies of the data being stored in the haven<BR>
(if<BR>
>only to uncover the moles). How the PCs achieve their aims is up to them,<BR>
>but success will bring great rewards.<BR>
<BR>
Does a bullet in the back of the head constitute a "great reward"? :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:29:53 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> Playing online also gives you a chance to play with people from all<BR>
> over the world, I'm in games with people from Germany, Austria (or<BR>
> Spain depending on how you look at it), England, Canada, Australia,<BR>
> and all over the US, and their diverse backgrounds and points of<BR>
> view bring qualities to the games that would be hard to match in a<BR>
> FTF.<BR>
<BR>
Hey!  What am I?  Chopped liver?  Add Scotland to that list. <g><BR>
<BR>
Ah, the dangers of enumeration...<BR>
<BR>
Now if you'll excuse my I'll go crawl back under my rock.<BR>
<BR>
But before I go, I'd love to get involved in a GRIP:Traveller.  Unfortunately,<BR>
I'll have to wait on a Linux version :(<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
7:29am up 34 days, 12:23, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.13<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:20:00 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
...<BR>
>>That shoots to hell the theory that the 3I is prosperous because<BR>
>>its interior lines and advantageous size allow it to keep per capita<BR>
>>expenditures low; the implication is that they somehow aren't really<BR>
>>affected by what on a single (balkanized) world would be seen as<BR>
>>crippling military expenditures.<BR>
><BR>
>Consider the economies of most subsectors or clusters to begin with. In many<BR>
>cases, 50%+ of the entire industrial capacity will be based on one high<BR>
>population world. (At least on the fringes.) Even given the higher<BR>
>populations in the core, you can still wind up with a single Pop A (CT)<BR>
>world being the economy of a subsector with maybe 2-4 Pop 9 worlds<BR>
>supporting it. How much does that effect economies of scale when 95% of your<BR>
>systems are just "hanging" about? Does the 3I really support those massive<BR>
>Imperial fleets based on the pennies from all the Pop 1-8 worlds out there?<BR>
<BR>
  Probably not, but the dominance of the Hi-Pops is one of the quandaries<BR>
of the number crunchers. I prefer to reduce per capita wealth/production/<BR>
industrialization for UPP pop 9+ (I also favour a sharp divide between<BR>
fusion & pre-fusion based power supplies, but that's just me, I guess).<BR>
<BR>
  In any case, most of the OTU societies are like that, so it all balances<BR>
out - whether an 8 sector empire is 2000 pop 7 worlds or 20 pop 9 is of<BR>
relatively little consequence so long as some of the 7's can specialize<BR>
in cranking out the big iron.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:28:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
George Smiley is an extremely devious intelligence officer for British<BR>
intelligence from several of Le' Carre's novels, if he was one of the Intel<BR>
persons in this scenario you could guaentee that noone  would be able to<BR>
figure out the 'real' motives or situation.  Including the GM quite possibly<BR>
:-).  An excellent series of books for anyone wanting to run a gritty intel<BR>
campaign.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------Original message------------<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
> 4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
> George Smiley...;-)<BR>
<BR>
Huh?<BR>
- - --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
- ---------End original-----------------<BR>
<BR>
Wow must bookmark this digest, TWO Huh's from Leonard, must be a record :-)<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
The conquest of space is facing two major problems: gravity and red tape.<BR>
We could have managed gravity<BR>
        Werner von Braun<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:59:54 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat B<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat<BR>
...<BR>
>I don't think you fully answered the last item.  Again, assume we are<BR>
>speaking of a missile that utilizes NOE and stealth to close range, then<BR>
<BR>
  Keep in mind that these new targets don't require PD to engage; in<BR>
fact, they're dead meat against shoulder-fired SAM's :(  A scout car<BR>
with a VRF gauss and a herd of AD-missiles could have a lot of fun<BR>
screening against these things.<BR>
<BR>
  Heck, the 2300 AD "Snapfire" system could waste a KCr 250 missile by<BR>
dispensing a 20 kg HEAP round!<BR>
<BR>
>upon contact activated ECM and blip enhancing (I'm a grav tank).  Every love<BR>
<BR>
  So you're jamming radar/radio, and operating a dazzler - hopefully your<BR>
IR signature is similar too - and these to all angles? Actually, being the<BR>
only visible-light jamming emitter around, you get the axe? That, or the<BR>
electronic (& other!) eyes realize that - gasp - you're a tiny little<BR>
piece of enemy _<zap>_ spare parts?<BR>
<BR>
>tap you use when you fire on your own vehicle is a sot lost against the<BR>
>missiles.  You arpeture of intercept is relatively low since you won't see<BR>
>the target until it's fairly close.  You PD system must detect the target,<BR>
>aquire and lock and then fire.  Even if you can track multiple targets, you<BR>
>still must aquire each one with you PD.  Some of these 'targets' will turn<BR>
>out to be your own vehicles.  There will be a delay between intercepts.<BR>
<BR>
  If even only the platoon leaders have battlefield comps linked to higher<BR>
echelons, then only vehicles out of communications _can_ be mistaken for <BR>
hostiles.<BR>
<BR>
>Some missiles WILL get through.  Each disabled vehicle means reduced PD<BR>
>assets for the next intercept.<BR>
<BR>
  Umm, how are the missiles deciding who's a friendly and who's not? What<BR>
happens when one tries the "I'm a grav-tank" stunt - how do others _know_<BR>
what it is, especially if they're infiltrating independently? And their<BR>
grav drives are power-hogs, and fusion packs require huge costs.<BR>
<BR>
>As and aside, how much are you putting into vehicle maintenance, recovery<BR>
>and repair?  What percentage of you vehicle fall prey to mechanical problems?<BR>
<BR>
  Keep in mind that Traveller fusion & grav hardware seems to be very robust,<BR>
quite possibly with no moving parts other than the controls (i.e., this is<BR>
_not_ a maintenance-intensive system like AFV suspension/transmissions or<BR>
internal-combustion/propeller aviation engines)<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2583<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:00:43 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:00:23 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA62200;<BR>
	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:59:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:59:08 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id DAA62170<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:59:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:59:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006100759.DAA62170@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2583<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2584</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/10/00 8:38:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 10 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2584<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
Re: Ground Combat<BR>
Gearhead Needed (UFO/X-COM)<BR>
Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Forine [Long!]<BR>
RE: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: GRIP, Macs, Trav, et al<BR>
Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
Linux Traveller Edition ?<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
RE: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
Re: ACQ Question<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
Re: missile quesitons<BR>
Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:10:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
>> Ok, I'm not a real gearhead, but sometimes I just wanna have a<BR>
>> ship MY way.  So, what do you guys use for drawing out<BR>
>> deckplans?  Software I mean?  The big problem is getting the hex<BR>
>> background (I prefer hexes to squares).  Any suggestions would be<BR>
>> great (no, I'm not looking to invest tons o' cash into new software).<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE replied<BR>
>As a player, I've always figured that, if I need to see deckplans,<BR>
>things have gone horribly wrong.  Therefore, I have never had much<BR>
>interest in deckplans or deckplan-creating software.  However, I suspect<BR>
>that Campaign Cartographer (someone else will have to give you the URL)<BR>
>will meet your needs.  IIRC, it's not hideously expensive (I think it's<BR>
>in the $50-$60 USD range, but I'm not sure), and it should support both<BR>
>square-grid and hex-grid maps.<BR>
<BR>
I use it a lot for my fantasy campaign maps and have had a couple of<BR>
attempts to design deckplans using it, very, very easy to use and more than<BR>
powerful enough.  Only downside is a lack of icons for Sci-Fi ships, however<BR>
you can design your own easily enough.  The only reason I don't use it more<BR>
often is that I have most of the deckplans I need from canon sources and the<BR>
web.  Though my plans for TNE Clipper and  plans are still on hold (2 yrs<BR>
late now).  :-(<BR>
<BR>
It does support Square and hex grids, fully scaleable too.<BR>
URL http://www.profantasy.com/<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
The conquest of space is facing two major problems: gravity and red tape.<BR>
We could have managed gravity<BR>
        Werner von Braun<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:24:00 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ground Combat<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Ground Combat<BR>
...<BR>
>OK, one thing FS does do is put real computers into tanks. I guess that<BR>
>means that they can keep track of where our tanks should be, which reduces<BR>
>that problem (isnt one of the US experimental units equipped with what High<BR>
>Guard called Map Boxes ?).<BR>
<BR>
  Various electronic upgrades beyond visibility have been considered,<BR>
with the "neater" ones being systems to report vehicle status and<BR>
location up the food-chain; the idea of every vehicle getting the<BR>
goodies went out the window at some point.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, the CD3 (descendant of GDW's _Command Decision 2ed_) list includes<BR>
a number of veterans, many of whom had a good laugh at the suggestion that<BR>
such upgrades would make every platoon a fully-informed independent unit<BR>
on the operational battlefield (i.e., self-ordering in Striker 2, or High<BR>
initiative in Striker for CT).<BR>
<BR>
  You could fiddle things to simulate modest effects by having on-board<BR>
comps and the like either enhancing upper echelon command assets (in<BR>
Striker 2) or reducing the time to issue orders (or maybe dropping the <BR>
bar on where the initiative categories start) for the original Striker.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:47:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Gearhead Needed (UFO/X-COM)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson's call for assistance reminded me of something I've been <BR>
meaning to do for a while ... come up with real-world and/or TRAVELLER <BR>
stats for the personal weapons, armor etc. used in the first of the X-COM <BR>
computer games.  (My intent is mostly to add chrome to game-based fiction, <BR>
but who knows?  Maybe it'll lead to an ACQ scenario with Earth's fearless <BR>
defenders on one side and Snakemen and Chryssalids on the other.)<BR>
<BR>
My problem is that I neither have nor know how to use FF&S (or spreadsheets <BR>
derived from same); the extent of my own gearheadedness was some never-used <BR>
HG/TCS designs back in the day.  I'd very much appreciate it if someone who <BR>
knows the system would contact me; knowledge of X-COM is, of course, a plus.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:36:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>> Yikes!!!<BR>
><BR>
> Sounds like something Familie Spofulam might have created in their early<BR>
> days, don't you think?  =)<BR>
><BR>
>> But what a way to retreat from a stronghold, and deny it to the enemy...<BR>
><BR>
> At least temporarily<BR>
><BR>
> Note: Your definition of "temporarily" may vary.<BR>
<BR>
It occurs to me that these are *much* easier to build and use once<BR>
nuclear dampers are available. You can even *throttle* them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:39:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Edrickson wrote:<BR>
>  <BR>
> <snip><BR>
>> It is an amusing commentary on the times that the book<BR>
>> thought that this was an attractive propulsion system, <BR>
>> if only the rapid reaction travel could be slowed down.<BR>
>> Just think, a propulsion system that *depends* upon<BR>
>> vaporizing reactor grade uranium and spraying it in all directions!<BR>
><BR>
> And what exactly is the problem with this ?<BR>
<BR>
Hey, it wasn't *me* that said that...<BR>
<BR>
> It's no worse than fusion torches, ion drives, ram-scoops or Ol' Bang Bang<BR>
<BR>
	"God was knocking, and he wanted in BAD."<BR>
<BR>
(description of an Orion drive in "Footfall")<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:44:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>The Third Imperium is, officially, a restoration of the<BR>
>Ziru Sirka.  What was the legitimacy of the Vilani<BR>
>emperor's position?<BR>
<BR>
    Could the fact that he can nuke you back to before the stone age be<BR>
legitimacy enough for you?<BR>
    "He can destroy a thing, rules a thing." - Dune.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:17:32 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Forine [Long!]<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I have finished the first part of my Landgrab project for Forine<BR>
><BR>
>Go to <BR>
><BR>
>http://www.premier.net/~tim/landgrab/introduc.htm<BR>
> <BR>
>and take a look at the site.<BR>
<BR>
I took a look at it, and I must say I was impressed. There's a lot of<BR>
information there. I've gone through the first third of it with a view<BR>
to providing feedback, but I'm afraid I just don't have the time to go<BR>
through the rest. I hope you will find this useful. Maybe someone else<BR>
can comment on the other two thirds.<BR>
<BR>
(First off, you need to run the text through a spell checker and go over it<BR>
yourself too.)<BR>
<BR>
>Canon<BR>
><BR>
>CT/MT give the system a population of over 6 billion.<BR>
<BR>
According to _Safari Ship_ Forine has a population of 5.9 billion in 1110.<BR>
<BR>
>GURPS on the other hand gives it a population of just over 1 billion.<BR>
<BR>
1.6 billion is more than just over 1 billion.<BR>
<BR>
>I took the CT/MT data, because GURPS says Forine is one large city. Even<BR>
>with 6 billion I could not achieve this, but I think I came close.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm weak on 3D geometry, but if my calculations are correct, a sphere<BR>
with a diameter of 4,240 km has a surface of 56,478,296 square kilometers.<BR>
Less 22% ice caps leaves 44,053,071 km^2. Divided by 6 billion people you get<BR>
7342 m^2 per person, assuming for purposes of argument that all the buildings<BR>
and factories only have one floor (Which IMO is a ridiculous assumption).<BR>
That's quite a lot of space. For 1.6 billion and with multiple floors it gets<BR>
even worse. I'd say there was an excellent case for considering the BtC<BR>
information flawed.<BR>
<BR>
>Astrography<BR>
><BR>
>...Elixabeth (1532) a semi-colony of Forine...<BR>
<BR>
According to _Regency Sourcebook_ Elixabeth is not owned by another planet<BR>
(Rather, *Elixabeth* is the owner of Talchek). That makes its captive<BR>
government either a homegrown military junta or Imperial administration<BR>
of some kind.<BR>
<BR>
>Forine<BR>
><BR>
>Forine  (1533) D3129B8-A   HI Na In Ic 610 Na M9 V<BR>
><BR>
>Located 1 AU from the system's cool young M9 V star...<BR>
<BR>
_Regency Sourcebook_ changed a number of the M-class stars. Forine's was<BR>
changed to G9 V. While I can understand (and approve) why they would change<BR>
those suns that had mainworlds with breathable atmosphere, I can't see any<BR>
reason to change that of Forine, but there it is.<BR>
<BR>
>...Forine's diameter of 5,600 km...<BR>
<BR>
_BtC_ claims the diameter is 4,240 km (2,635 miles). If you make it 32%<BR>
larger, you increase the land surface by a factor 2.3 (I think).<BR>
<BR>
>Erhaben  1: UWP:Y200000-0, Orbit: 35<BR>
>...Thin oxygen nitrogen atmosphere.<BR>
><BR>
>Bild        2: UWP:Y200000-0, Orbit: 40<BR>
>...a thin oxygen nitrogen atmosphere...<BR>
><BR>
>Uber       3: UWP:Y100000-A, Orbit: 55<BR>
>...this one possesses a thin oxygen nitrogen atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
None of these moons have any atmosphere at all let alone a thin one ('thin'<BR>
in Traveller means 'breathable without artificial aid').<BR>
<BR>
>Geography<BR>
><BR>
>Forine's astrophyics created an ice ball with no atmosphere...<BR>
<BR>
Forine OTOH do have a little atmosphere, though only a trace.<BR>
<BR>
>The surface of Forine consists of three plates referred to as the Northwest,<BR>
>Southwest and Eastern plates.<BR>
<BR>
Nordwestlicher, Sydwestlicher, and Ostlicher (with an umlaut above the 'O')<BR>
Platte, if you want the German words (though I'm not 100% sure of the -er).<BR>
<BR>
>History<BR>
><BR>
>The history of Forine begins with the first settlers from Terra around 1200<BR>
<BR>
I presume you mean -1,200.<BR>
<BR>
[Tim, the following rant isn't really aimed at you. You just touched it off.]<BR>
<BR>
Personally I deplore the tendency, so prominent in _Behind the Claw_, to<BR>
picture the Spinward Marches as a sort of America to the Solomani Rim's<BR>
Europe. Every group that leaves the Solomani Rim seems to make a bee-line<BR>
for the Spinward Marches (and they are always from Earth, never from Dingir<BR>
or Easter or one of the other worlds). Yet the Marches are a LONG way from<BR>
the Solomani Rim. There are roughly 250 parsecs from Earth to the Marches.<BR>
It takes a jump-3 ship a MINIMUM of 84 jumps to cross that distance, assuming<BR>
it is never forced to jump short or to detour and never has a misjump (OK,<BR>
theoretically a misjump could send it in the right direction and shorten the<BR>
trip; how often might that happen?). That's about 2 years and 4 months.<BR>
Meanwhile it is passing by dozens of suitable places to set up colony. And<BR>
after the first year, the jump engine gets more and more cranky...<BR>
<BR>
IMO it is s small miracle that two expeditions actually made it all that way<BR>
during the whole Long Night (though Jon Zeigler did come up with a clever<BR>
explanation for a small trickle of settlers following in the wake of the<BR>
original Sword Worlder expedition (Aslan help)).<BR>
<BR>
And when these expeditions do get to the Spinward Marches, do they find<BR>
themselves a nice, empty Terran-norm or at least Terran-prime world and<BR>
settle it? Apparently not...<BR>
<BR>
[End of rant].<BR>
<BR>
If you want a pre-Imperial population for Forine, why not make it a mining<BR>
colony from the Sindalian Empire (Founded -2,074 in Subsector G of Trojan<BR>
Reach, spread to cover much of the coreward half of Trojan Reach, collapsed<BR>
in -1,441 after 50 years of civil war). If you establish that there were<BR>
exceptionally rich mineral deposits close to Hellmund (Lightmouth???), you<BR>
also explain why the first settlers set up shop near the only active volcano<BR>
on the whole world...<BR>
<BR>
>This settlement would latter disappear from the records, like so many, with<BR>
>the coming of the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
- -1,200 is already well into the Long Night. I don't think there were ANY<BR>
regular, or even irregular, communication between the Marches and other parts<BR>
of human-occupied space at the time, so the settlement propably never was in<BR>
any records to begin with.<BR>
<BR>
>In 172 the first Sword Worlders arrived on Forine,<BR>
<BR>
You mean -172, right?<BR>
<BR>
>From 160-400 Forine passed in and out of consecutive Sword World control...<BR>
<BR>
Why 160? What happened in 160?<BR>
<BR>
>...as one dominate collapsed after another.<BR>
<BR>
Triple Dominion 104-217. Small quabbling governments 217-604. Settlement maps<BR>
for 300, 400, and 500 does not show Forine as part of any Sword World polity.<BR>
Whatever cultural influence the Sword Worlds may have had on Forine during<BR>
these years, it did not extent to political dominance. Nor do political maps<BR>
fro the five frontier wars show Forine as part of the Sword Worlds at any<BR>
time.<BR>
<BR>
>Twice Imperial forces took Forine, it was even declared an Arbellatra<BR>
>Captured World.<BR>
<BR>
It's possible, I suppose, but the Imperium appears to have let District 268<BR>
pretty much alone over the years.<BR>
<BR>
>Though Forine returned to formal Sword World control [...] by the<BR>
>dissolution of the Trilateral Alliance in 848, Forine declared its<BR>
>independence.<BR>
<BR>
As mentioned above, Forine does not appear to have ever been under Sword<BR>
World control, although I suppose the maps do leave some 'holes' in the<BR>
timeline that could be used.<BR>
<BR>
>...Forine in 1081 took advantage of the confusion of the 4th Frontier War<BR>
<BR>
4FW started in 1082.<BR>
<BR>
>...to claim Elixabeth for their own.<BR>
<BR>
As mentioned above, Forine ownership of Elixabeth contradicts previously<BR>
published material.<BR>
<BR>
>They then declared the creation of the Assembly<BR>
<BR>
If there ever was a Forine Assembly, it dates back to 990 according to BtC.<BR>
<BR>
>Over the next 26 years [...] Forine doggedly continued to pour funds and<BR>
>resources into the system. [By 1105] the population had grown to 20,000.<BR>
<BR>
That's awfully small results for 26 years of pouring funds and resources<BR>
into a project like that.<BR>
<BR>
>[Forine fought off the 100th Fleet during the 5FW.]<BR>
<BR>
There is absolutely no mention of anything like that in the description of<BR>
the 5FW in _Spinward Marches Campaign.<BR>
<BR>
>More damaging then this was the destruction of the Eisberg starport.<BR>
<BR>
Forine has had a Class D starport all the way back from _Supplement 1, The<BR>
Spinward Marches_, several years before the 5FW. Mind you, I do feel that<BR>
is a mistake, since Forine is also, according to the library data in<BR>
_Tarsus_, "the primary producer of processed and refined metals and minerals<BR>
for the subsector". Go figure.<BR>
<BR>
>Economics<BR>
><BR>
>...At the same time, capital is drying up, as the Forine mega-corporations<BR>
>no longer have accesses to the wealthy Imperial markets.<BR>
<BR>
A mega-corporation is an Imperium-spanning organisation. Unless you wish to<BR>
imply that Forine is the seat of several Imperium-spanning corporations, I<BR>
suggest you lose the 'mega'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, that was what I managed to get done. Hope it helped.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:34:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
someone wrote :<BR>
> >> It is an amusing commentary on the times that the book<BR>
> >> thought that this was an attractive propulsion system, <BR>
> >> if only the rapid reaction travel could be slowed down.<BR>
> >> Just think, a propulsion system that *depends* upon<BR>
> >> vaporizing reactor grade uranium and spraying it in all directions!<BR>
I wrote :<BR>
> > And what exactly is the problem with this ?<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> Hey, it wasn't *me* that said that...<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for getting the attribution wrong, Leonard.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:01 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
<BR>
Moin Douglas E. Berry,<BR>
<BR>
> >Entering Vland was more or less her equivalent to Caesar crossing the<BR>
> >Rubicon.  Once she did that she would have been in open rebellion.<BR>
> <BR>
> At that point, I doubt there was an authority capable of bringing the<BR>
> charge.  Also, right by means of fleet control had been established as a<BR>
> standard.<BR>
<BR>
  She prepared it well - because at the same time she crossed corridor<BR>
  vilani forces had to suppress a rebellion at Lancia against the vilani<BR>
  sector duke at 2224 Usdiki. So vilani forces had been unable to react<BR>
  to her fleets, giving her a clean path to core. Those rebellion against<BR>
  2224 Usdiki and Vland was backed by Aslan mercenaries - as Lancians<BR>
  prefer other to do the wetwork.<BR>
<BR>
  Ten years after she steped on the iridium throne (639), she gave the<BR>
  Lancian region independence from 2224 Usdiki and raised Inesh Miikadgaa<BR>
  to Duke status, to be a peer to Dukes at Vland and Usdiki.<BR>
<BR>
  In 760 2224 Usdiki launched a rebellion which was meant to spark<BR>
  off an Imperium wide over-throw of Paulo 1 and the Alkhalikoi line.<BR>
<BR>
  In 761 Paulo I decided that 2224 Usdiki had forfeited its right to be<BR>
  the Sector Capital and moved the Gushemege capital to 1015 Usdiki, and<BR>
  the  Sector Duchy was transferred to Duke Eneri Miikadgaa, whose line<BR>
  rules till 1132. Since 761 2224 is known as Kamurinmur, but still some<BR>
  maps dont reflect this.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:39:15 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
<stuff from several posts snipped><BR>
<BR>
Hunter is running a game on Friday nites at 10 PM EST.  The player software<BR>
is free and you can come and see if you like it.  I played in the last<BR>
session and it was fun.  I have ordered the game but it hasn't shipped yet,<BR>
so we can't host Traveller games per se.  The system is more or less<BR>
completely customizable from what I understand so you could run a game with<BR>
the current incarnation of the GM software.  I don't have that yet, am<BR>
waiting for the Traveller version.  (BTW when is it shipping Hunter?) I know<BR>
it is close to shipping.   I really hope to get a some games going with the<BR>
members here.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:48:50 -0400<BR>
From: Brian Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP, Macs, Trav, et al<BR>
<BR>
> You can actually run GRIP (or any other Windows program) on a Mac, using a<BR>
> great program called VirtualPC (from Connectix http://www.connectix.com I<BR>
> believe). It actually includes Windows, and lets you run a Win session as a<BR>
> Mac window. The main drawback (and a big one I admit), is the last price I saw<BR>
> was around $150.00. It also is not as fast as a native PC running windows. On<BR>
> the plus side, it works surprisingly well, one of our group is a Mac user and<BR>
> used VirtualPC for a long time to play in our games back when we first started<BR>
> developing and testing GRIP.<BR>
<BR>
I have (and use) Virtual PC (although I'm running off of version 2.x,<BR>
while they're really up past version 3), and I agree with most of what<BR>
was said above. It's an excellent program (and a majority of the cost<BR>
comes from the Windows license - compare the price of, say, the Win2000<BR>
version with the Red Hat Linux version). For a (mostly) text-based<BR>
system like this one, it should be fairly easy to run. And, with VPC 3+,<BR>
you can share the same internet connection with both Mac and PC (under<BR>
2.x- you have to turn off Mac internet access before turning on PC access).<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:58:29 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
<BR>
Moin James Pearson,<BR>
<BR>
> Ok, I'm not a real gearhead, but sometimes I just wanna have a <BR>
> ship MY way.  So, what do you guys use for drawing out deckplans?<BR>
<BR>
  I still use XFig for drawing - But I think that Yadex would be the<BR>
  best tool, as Yadex is a Doom/Quake/Heretic WAD file editor. So it<BR>
  would be possible to walk through the ship - or even train a boarding<BR>
  party.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:52:10 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Linux Traveller Edition ?<BR>
<BR>
Moin Paul Campbell,<BR>
<BR>
> But before I go, I'd love to get involved in a GRIP:Traveller.<BR>
> Unfortunately, I'll have to wait on a Linux version :(<BR>
<BR>
  I'm half finished on renewal of my Shipyard and Survey scripts.<BR>
  I plan to publish them as Games::Traveller on CPAN. Most important<BR>
  goal is to get rid of 'non free' premise the current Survey has.<BR>
<BR>
  The software will be portable Perl module, so not only Linux gurus<BR>
  will be able to use it. The user interface is written in Perl/TK<BR>
  and communication between the players is done with HTTP and IRC.<BR>
<BR>
  If anybody want to share work - I'll prepare CVS access when the<BR>
  prototype works.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
<BR>
(*) XML::Edifact is known to work on Unix,NT,MacOS/X,VMS and OS/400.<BR>
    I think that a similar grade of portability can be achieved for<BR>
    a game.<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:12:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
At 3:59 -0400 10/6/00, "Peter  Scarrott" <BR>
<peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>- -----------Original message------------<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
><BR>
> > 4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
> > George Smiley...;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Huh?<BR>
>- - --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>- ---------End original-----------------<BR>
><BR>
>Wow must bookmark this digest, TWO Huh's from Leonard, must be a record :-)<BR>
<BR>
It's the first two I recall since 96! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:10:37 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
At 3:59 -0400 10/6/00, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
> >only to uncover the moles). How the PCs achieve their aims is up to them,<BR>
> >but success will bring great rewards.<BR>
>Does a bullet in the back of the head constitute a "great reward"? :)<BR>
<BR>
Depends if you bill their family afterwards for the cost of the round <BR>
and cleaning up?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spaceship propulsion you DON'T want to use<BR>
<BR>
At 3:59 -0400 10/6/00, "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <BR>
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
> > But what a way to retreat from a stronghold, and deny it to the enemy...<BR>
><BR>
>At least temporarily<BR>
><BR>
>Note: Your definition of "temporarily" may vary.<BR>
<BR>
Splort!<BR>
<BR>
ROFL<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:05:29 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ Question<BR>
<BR>
At 22:37 -0400 9/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>Depends upon howe long your arms are. :)  Actually, combatants must be<BR>
>adjacenet to each other, within a meter or so, to intiate a melee attack.<BR>
><BR>
>Dom, mark this for an errata file.<BR>
<BR>
Done, suspect I may build an FAQ if we get enough ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:02:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
At 22:37 -0400 9/6/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > 4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
> > George Smiley...;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Huh?<BR>
<BR>
John le Carre's UK Spymaster<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Karla^h^hDom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:01:19 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon silliness<BR>
<BR>
At 22:37 -0400 9/6/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> >> Anybody feel like designing a Hurricane Killer? :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > FW190<BR>
> ><BR>
> > :-)<BR>
><BR>
>Huh?<BR>
<BR>
FW 190 was a German fighter which chewed up Hurricanes.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:31:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: missile quesitons<BR>
<BR>
>Depends. Many (if not most!) types of drive that are going to be used<BR>
>in missiles don't have a throttle. Once they light off, they go at full<BR>
>thrust until they detonate or they run out of fuel.<BR>
<BR>
Not in Traveller - solid rockets aren't exactly useful at Traveller<BR>
ranges. (EAPLAC notwithstanding.)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:37:54 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Seems to be a lack of updates to these sites recently.<BR>
<BR>
Colin, Jeff, what's happening?<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2584<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:38:27 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:38:06 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA78212;<BR>
	Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:37:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:36:57 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA78171<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:36:56 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:36:56 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006101536.LAA78171@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2584<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2585</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/11/00 2:07:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2585<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
Re: Linux Traveller Edition ?<BR>
Re: ground combat B<BR>
Re: Re: [OT long] Canadian helicopters (the short v<BR>
Water in Meteors<BR>
Reverse-Order Digests<BR>
[OT] Stats on Internet users' nationality <BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
X Boat start?<BR>
GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
Re: missile quesitons<BR>
Re: Reverse-Order Digests<BR>
TNE Book Trilogy<BR>
Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2584<BR>
Re: X Boat start?<BR>
re: OT pathetic U.S. military<BR>
Re: Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions)<BR>
The New High Ground<BR>
Re: X Boat start?<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
RE:  Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
re: OT pathetic U.S. military<BR>
re: OT pathetic U.S. military<BR>
H&E V1.0.2 Released<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:44:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:10 PM 6/10/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway, my idea is that the Archduke of Vland (under duress, of course!)<BR>
>declared that since there was no legitimate Emperor, he was exercising his<BR>
>authority to order Arbellatra to restore order in the Imperium.  This would<BR>
>give Arbellatra a "legal" propaganda basis for her actions, not to mention<BR>
>control of the Vland fleet.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, all the legitimacy she needed was gained by making herself Regent<BR>
rather than Empress, and beginning  the search for a legitimate heir.<BR>
Those years allowed her, in relative peace, to build up her support and<BR>
power base while hunting down the last few would-be Emperors.  By the time<BR>
of Arbellatra was offered the crown, she had already been acting as the<BR>
monarach for several years.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:36:44 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Linux Traveller Edition ?<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Michael Koehne wrote:<BR>
> Moin Paul Campbell,<BR>
> <BR>
> > But before I go, I'd love to get involved in a GRIP:Traveller.<BR>
> > Unfortunately, I'll have to wait on a Linux version :(<BR>
> <BR>
>   I'm half finished on renewal of my Shipyard and Survey scripts.<BR>
>   I plan to publish them as Games::Traveller on CPAN. Most important<BR>
>   goal is to get rid of 'non free' premise the current Survey has.<BR>
> <BR>
>   The software will be portable Perl module, so not only Linux gurus<BR>
>   will be able to use it. The user interface is written in Perl/TK<BR>
>   and communication between the players is done with HTTP and IRC.<BR>
> <BR>
>   If anybody want to share work - I'll prepare CVS access when the<BR>
>   prototype works.<BR>
<BR>
Great, keep me/us posted.<BR>
<BR>
> Bye Michael<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
3:36pm up 34 days, 20:30, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.05, 0.04<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:36:21 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat B<BR>
<BR>
on 6/10/00 12:59 AM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Umm, how are the missiles deciding who's a friendly and who's not? What<BR>
> happens when one tries the "I'm a grav-tank" stunt - how do others _know_<BR>
> what it is, especially if they're infiltrating independently? And their<BR>
> grav drives are power-hogs, and fusion packs require huge costs.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm finding striker terribly frustration in that I'm having problems<BR>
building missile/drone that match the performance/capability of weapon<BR>
systems CURRENTLY deployed.  Example:<BR>
<BR>
Above I decided that gravs were unnecessary.  As posted previously, I select<BR>
high efficiency air breather engines for cruising.  Now grav of fusion to<BR>
worry about.  These things should be cheap at TL 9.  Striker rules state<BR>
that long range drones require grav, and cruising speed is a max of<BR>
200km/hr.  WHAT!? The ALCMB has a range of 200km and better performance.<BR>
The 1950s Snark had intercontinental range.  DARPA is working with Vought to<BR>
develop an 11,000km range ALCM.<BR>
<BR>
As I continued designing currently deployed systems, the more it seems that<BR>
Striker is badly out of step with reality.  Is this also true of FFS2?<BR>
> <BR>
> Keep in mind that Traveller fusion & grav hardware seems to be very robust,<BR>
> quite possibly with no moving parts other than the controls (i.e., this is<BR>
> _not_ a maintenance-intensive system like AFV suspension/transmissions or<BR>
> internal-combustion/propeller aviation engines)<BR>
<BR>
Ah, the mythical 'everything is 100 realiable in the future'.  Sorry, don't<BR>
buy it.  Suspension, powerplant may have fewer (or no) moving parts, the the<BR>
controls are going to be even more complex.  What happens when the computer<BR>
crashes?  Super complex electronics fail, or worse, just give erroneous<BR>
information.  The MTBF increases with the complexity of the system.  Large,<BR>
complex systems avoid problem like this through redundancy, at the price of<BR>
increased cost and higher demands for maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
Do your turrets move? Do you laser tuurets/guns have bearings? motors etc.<BR>
Systems will wear out/fail with routine use.  We aren't even calculating in<BR>
the harsh environment of combat.<BR>
<BR>
Just to look at the tank/antitank weapon cost:<BR>
<BR>
Currently MBT cost to ATGM cost ration is about 1:100 (comparing M1 Abrams<BR>
against TOW).  Why should this change much.  For any technological/cost<BR>
advantage gained by armor there is likely to be corresponding gain in<BR>
antiarmor technology/cost.<BR>
<BR>
Given that I am postulation a more sophosticated ATGM, lets say cost ratio<BR>
is more like 1:20  still a good exchange rate, especially if I get a kill or<BR>
disable only with 1 out of 10 rounds (pretty low kill rate for a modern<BR>
ATGM).<BR>
<BR>
I suppose I should complain to Loren, as I see his name in the credits for<BR>
Striker.  Geeze, Loren, been doing this for a while?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:27:29 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: [OT long] Canadian helicopters (the short v<BR>
<BR>
At 11:49 +0000 10/6/00, "Paul Roberts" <proberts@tamcotec.com> wrote:<BR>
> > >ISTR that there has just been a successful trial of the EH101 as <BR>
>an S&R asset?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Yes, we have twelve now, i think, in that role. Search and Rescue is<BR>
> > a division of the Armed Forces drawing personnel from all branches.<BR>
> > It has a separate procurement budget.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, we don't have them yet, but they did just pass their icing<BR>
>tests in Halifax, within the month.<BR>
<BR>
That's what prompted the question - ISTR reading an article on that <BR>
in 'The Engineer' or 'Professional Engineering'.<BR>
<BR>
As another aside - does anyone know (and can say ;-) ) just how <BR>
different the Westland version of the Apache is from the US one?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:34:32 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Water in Meteors<BR>
<BR>
http://exn.ca/stories/2000/06/08/56.cfm<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:41:51 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Reverse-Order Digests<BR>
<BR>
Anyone else getting their digests in reverse order?  I just got #2584,<BR>
#2583, #2582 and #2581 in that order.  Weird.<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:45:40 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: [OT] Stats on Internet users' nationality <BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the tip Dom! <BR>
<BR>
Now, back to Traveller...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:40:25 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
>Probably not, but the dominance of the Hi-Pops is one of the quandaries<BR>
of the number crunchers. I prefer to reduce per capita wealth/production/<BR>
industrialization for UPP pop 9+ (I also favour a sharp divide between<BR>
fusion & pre-fusion based power supplies, but that's just me, I guess).<<BR>
<BR>
Why reduce the industrialization index for them?<BR>
(I agree on the pre-fusion/fusion line though. I had forgotten about that.)<BR>
<BR>
 >In any case, most of the OTU societies are like that, so it all balances<BR>
out - whether an 8 sector empire is 2000 pop 7 worlds or 20 pop 9 is of<BR>
relatively little consequence so long as some of the 7's can specialize<BR>
in cranking out the big iron.<<BR>
<BR>
Possibly. It would depend on world unity then. Pop 8 is the U.S. and Pop 7<BR>
is a sizable nation still even if they spread out an an entire planet.<BR>
I suppose part of it goes to a perceptual prejudice based on the economic<BR>
rating from CT where only Pop 9 and A worlds are "Industrial" and any world<BR>
Pop 6 or less is "Non-Industrial". Just how far do those ratings go in<BR>
defining a worlds character or capacity? (Is it as bad as being a "Minor<BR>
Race"?)<BR>
(Which is probably another topic too.)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:00:55 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> >"As you may have heard rumors Emperor Stryx's abdication <BR>
> >in 989 was forced at gunpoint. Since Imperial law clearly <BR>
<BR>
> (Imperial chambers; later that night.  Present are Strephon<BR>
> his seneschal, and two Imperial guards.)<BR>
<BR>
> Strephon (looking at datascreen):  OK, this is a problem. <BR>
> This is a problem.  I want this joker whacked and I mean<BR>
> pronto.  Your guy Chakrampong still onna planet?<BR>
<BR>
[snicker]<BR>
<BR>
YMMV but I see Strephon as possessing to much gravitas (and<BR>
having too high an EDU and SOC) to say things like 'whacked',<BR>
and 'onna', 'your guy', 'pronto' and 'this joker' sound a bit <BR>
too much like Americanisms. See Survival Margin's Strephon's diaries<BR>
entries for examples of what he really wrote like. OTOH he could<BR>
have been writing formally but talking informally.<BR>
<BR>
> Seneschal (looking at another datascreen):  Yeah, boss, he<BR>
> and his guys are on their ship, but they aren't gonna lift<BR>
> for an hour.<BR>
> Strephon:  Great. Well, take care of it.  I've got a date<BR>
> with a hot empress tonight.<BR>
<BR>
Strephon has no need to justify himself to his seneschal or<BR>
to comment on his date with a hot Empress.<BR>
<BR>
> Seneschal:  I'm on it, boss.  We'll have these two in<BR>
> icicles for ya before ya know it.<BR>
<BR>
'In icicles'? I know what it means but I'm not sure its <BR>
appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:45:50 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: X Boat start?<BR>
<BR>
When was the X Boat service initiated?<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:46:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
<BR>
According to the Progress report I got in the mail, Orycon (third<BR>
weekend in November, in Portland, OR) is going to have a Traveller game<BR>
in the gaming area. I quote the flyer:<BR>
<BR>
	-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
David MacDonald will be gamemastering GURPS Traveller. Characters will<BR>
be limited to 100 points plus 40 points of disadvantages and 5 quirks.<BR>
A character design session will precede the game. The scenario has<BR>
characters laying over at the Imperial Starport at Deneb, Spinward<BR>
Marches, while their Free Trader undergoes retrofits. Pregenerated<BR>
characters will be provided if needed. Experienced characters will be<BR>
allowed within reason.<BR>
<BR>
	-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
So maybe I'll see some of you folks at the con. It's an SF con, not a<BR>
gaming one, but so what?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:53:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: missile quesitons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Depends. Many (if not most!) types of drive that are going to be used<BR>
>>in missiles don't have a throttle. Once they light off, they go at full<BR>
>>thrust until they detonate or they run out of fuel.<BR>
><BR>
> Not in Traveller - solid rockets aren't exactly useful at Traveller<BR>
> ranges. (EAPLAC notwithstanding.)<BR>
<BR>
There's always the "Burning Wall"... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:59:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Reverse-Order Digests<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone else getting their digests in reverse order?  I just got #2584,<BR>
> #2583, #2582 and #2581 in that order.  Weird.<BR>
<BR>
Internet mail does not preserve order between messages. Hell, I've had<BR>
messages (not on *this* list, but of others) show up more than a week<BR>
after it was sent.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:10:45 -0400<BR>
From: Kevin Combs <beast013@flash.net><BR>
Subject: TNE Book Trilogy<BR>
<BR>
I have finished reading the first two books of the<BR>
Traveller: New Era trilogy (The Death of Wisdom and To Dream<BR>
of Chaos).  Great novels!  I was wondering if the third Book<BR>
(The Backwards Mask?) was ever printed.  If not, are there<BR>
plans to do so?  Is it available on line?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"We should have freed the slaves, then fired on Fort<BR>
Sumter."<BR>
General James Longstreet<BR>
<BR>
Kevin Combs<BR>
Columbia, Maryland<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:34:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> (2)  Fire Control Locks:  I now understand why a lock is needed at<BR>
>> time of detonation.  But, it doesn't seem to be necessary at time of<BR>
>> launch.<BR>
><BR>
>Then how do you get the missile to go in the right direction?<BR>
><BR>
>In space combat, a target is not a set of co-ordinates. It's a<BR>
>timestamp *and* the position and vector the object had at the specified<BR>
>time. <BR>
<BR>
For a SIM and a FIM the missile will have its own sensor.  For a launching ship/fighter a <BR>
detect or lock would not be necessary.  The SIM/FIM missile sensor would take over.  To go <BR>
in the right direction I think only a detect is necessary.  A fire control lock seems to be <BR>
overkill.  Granted, for a controlled missile a fire control lock would be necessary.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:21:39 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2584<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:36:56 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:37:54 +0100<BR>
>From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
>Subject: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>Seems to be a lack of updates to these sites recently.<BR>
<BR>
>Colin, Jeff, what's happening?<BR>
<BR>
Huh?  I've been updating at least once a month!  The last update<BR>
was 28 May!  Check the What's New link; I don't tend to mark<BR>
things "New" or "Updated" in the site, just list them in the<BR>
announcements and on the What's New page.<BR>
<BR>
From that page:<BR>
<BR>
28 May 2000 <BR>
<BR>
 - We've made corrections to broken and missing links throughout<BR>
the site. <BR>
<BR>
 - The FAQ, in the Information Center, has been updated. <BR>
<BR>
 - The Paragon Traveller computer adventures have been located,<BR>
and information added to the DOS program listing. You can find<BR>
the info, along with links, on that page from the Computer<BR>
Connection in the Information Center. <BR>
<BR>
 - A press release from Playnet announcing an on-line multiplayer<BR>
version of Traveller has been posted to News About Traveller in<BR>
the Information Center. <BR>
<BR>
 - Christopher Thrash brings us a Risus conversion of Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:09:23 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: X Boat start?<BR>
<BR>
It was announced in 624 but took over a century to complete the network,<BR>
this was the brain child of Arbellatra Alkalikhoi, Grand Admiral of the<BR>
Marches. This is from GURPS Traveller: First In.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: James Pearson <james@pearson.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Saturday, June 10, 2000 5:53 PM<BR>
Subject: X Boat start?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
When was the X Boat service initiated?<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:05:48 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: OT pathetic U.S. military<BR>
<BR>
Mike Staley wrote:<BR>
>     When you know when the fighting is going to start, you play with your <BR>
>maintenance scheds to have maximum availability. Your opponent, however, <BR>
>generally doesn't, so only 1/3 of their fleet is generally available.<BR>
<BR>
Increasing readiness in a hostile nation's military is pretty easy for our<BR>
intelligence services to spot (most of the time) and is one of the first<BR>
things placed on the president's daily briefings.  A hostile nation going to<BR>
maximum military readiness would have a CIA official getting the president's<BR>
attention *right now*.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:12:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
> (3)  Missile Guidance:<BR>
> The primary cost driver is the sensor.  <BR>
<BR>
>Problem is, such a low-end sensor is going to get jammed or spoofed.<BR>
<BR>
>MCr 125 buys you a Sens 13.5 PEMS Jammer at TL15 (it's MCr 250 at TL12).<BR>
>This jammer is a factor of 50 more powerful than a Sens 12.5 PEMS on a<BR>
>missile. Likewise, a Sense 12 AEMS Jammer is MCr 40 at TL15, and MCr 100 at<BR>
>TL12. I guess sand blocks LIDARs as well.<BR>
<BR>
>These are easy to pay for in a real warship.<BR>
<BR>
Remember that jamming doesn't make the sensor stop operating, it just reduces the sensor <BR>
strength by 0.5.  Additionally, this reduction is not cumulative for multiple jammers.<BR>
<BR>
Looking at the Electronic Warfare signature we have the following modifiers:<BR>
<BR>
30,000 km                   - 10.0<BR>
fire control lock             -  1.5<BR>
jamming                       -  0.5<BR>
sensor scanning 1 hex  + 1.0<BR>
automatic lock              -  2.0 (for PEMS)<BR>
target                   assume 0 <BR>
                                 ---------------<BR>
                                    13.0 PEMS sensitivity required for autolock<BR>
                                    12.5 PEMS sensitivity required for easy lock (1D)<BR>
<BR>
The missile will need a 13.0 PEMS for an autolock on the target.  The target is a big ship <BR>
and will probably have a powerful fusion plant and will also be firing beams and doing other <BR>
things, so the 0 IR signature is generous.  One could probably get by with the 12.5 PEMS.<BR>
<BR>
A 13.0 PEMS is expensive for a short-range det-laser missile, but is affordable for the <BR>
long-range version.  LIDAR is a lot cheaper, but it is an active sensor. <BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 18:20:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: The New High Ground<BR>
<BR>
Been doing some analyses on target acquisition & surviveability and I've come to this <BR>
conclusion:<BR>
<BR>
Attacking from the sunward direction is going to be the high ground of space.  The 0.5 <BR>
signature reduction has a big impact on the enemy obtaining fire control locks.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:37:23 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: X Boat start?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/10/00 6:47:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
james@pearson.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> When was the X Boat service initiated?<BR>
<BR>
After the Civil War.  It was an initiative of Arbellatra's, begun while she <BR>
was<BR>
still Regent.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:47:07 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
John <BR>
<BR>
I will help out anyway I can.  Just send me the details.  I am sorry I <BR>
have not sent you a direct email but every time I send one it fails to <BR>
deliver.  Do you have a problem with your email?  For the rest of <BR>
you I am sorry about this use of band width.<BR>
> <BR>
> ANNOUNCEMENT:<BR>
> I've talked with Andy Lilly about including some of the TML corps in the<BR>
> book and he thought it was a great idea. However, everyone who gets a<BR>
> credit gets a complementary copy and we don't want to be sending out<BR>
> fifty copies, so I'm going to ask people to contact me off-list if they<BR>
> want to write up their corporation, then we can decide what to do. Three<BR>
> people will be getting a copy for their work on the UCP whether they<BR>
> contribute a corporation or not (although I hope they will): Robert<BR>
> Eaglestone, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance and Tim Reynolds*. Speaking of whom:<BR>
> <BR>
> APOLOGY:<BR>
> My apologies to you, Tim. I had not realised your role in the ISBA and<BR>
> the development of the UCP. I wasn't deliberately snubbing you by<BR>
> referring to it as Andrew & Rob's!<BR>
> <BR>
> Must dash,<BR>
> <BR>
> John<BR>
> <BR>
> * Sorry, can't send a copy to everybody on the ISBA list...<BR>
>  <BR>
> John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
> IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
> Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:07:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: RE:  Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
<BR>
I was doing some calculations on missile EW & surviveability.  The results are below.<BR>
<BR>
A ship attempting to achieve a fire control lock on a missile:<BR>
<BR>
RADAR     LIDAR    Passive (IR)   Passive (Vis)<BR>
    0            -1.5             -0.5              -1.5             Missile, 7 dT, Long Box, 15 MW, 20 AF<BR>
                  -1.0                                -1.0             Military Ultrablack<BR>
  -1.5                                                                   Extreme Stealth<BR>
                                    -1.5                                 Extreme Thermal Masking<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
  -1.5           -2.5            -2.0              -2.5              Missile TOTAL<BR>
<BR>
                                    -1.0              -1.0              Passive Decoy<BR>
  -0.5           -0.5            -0.5              -0.5              Evasion<BR>
  -0.5                                                                    Active Area Radar Jammer<BR>
                                    +1.5                                 HEPlaR, 21+ G<BR>
  +1.0                            +1.0             +1.0             Sensor, single hex scan<BR>
   -1.5          -1.5             -1.5              -1.5              Fire Control Lock<BR>
  -10.0         -10.0           -10.0             -10.0            Range, 30,000 km<BR>
   -1.0          -1.0              -2.0               -2.0            Automatic Lock<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
  -14.0         -15.5             -14.5           -16.5           Missile & Modifiers TOTAL<BR>
   14.0          15.5              14.5            16.5           Sensor needed for auto FCL<BR>
<BR>
Notes:<BR>
(1)  LIDAR:  The rules seem to be unclear on it, but I didn't think the Passive Decoy would <BR>
apply for LIDAR.  Likewise I didn't think the modifier for concentrating the sensor in a single <BR>
hex would apply as well, since it is not a scanner.<BR>
(2)  Modifier for single hex scan:  I wasn't sure if this would apply for a lock, but I assumed it <BR>
would.<BR>
(3)  RADAR area jammer:  I assumed their would be fighters in the area jamming the target.<BR>
<BR>
Comments:<BR>
The missile has two long-range det-laser payloads.  The total inclusive package costs a <BR>
whopping 36 MCr ( 2 * 12 MCr for the payload and 12 MCr for the missile itself).  It has a <BR>
G-rating of 38 (realistic thrust of 26 Gs) and an endurance of 30 minutes. It has a 13.0 PEMS.<BR>
<BR>
I tried to make the missile as stealthy as possible, since if you can't see it you can't hit it.  <BR>
LIDAR is the obvious choice for acquiring target acquisition.  Even at the rating of 15.5 it is <BR>
still waaaaaaay cheap--only 62 MCr and 50 m^3 at TL 15.  I tried to put in a LIDAR decoy, but <BR>
I couldn't fit it in the missile.<BR>
<BR>
If the attack were to come from the sunward direction then sensitivity is reduced by 0.5.  The <BR>
LIDAR required sensitivity is increased to 16.0 which is off the chart.  I am not sure if this is <BR>
because it is technologically impossible or if the chart just wasn't large enough.  If the former <BR>
then a PEMS would be needed and at 15.0 it would be amazing expensive (25000 MCr).<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:43:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: re: OT pathetic U.S. military<BR>
<BR>
On 10 Jun 00, at 21:05, Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Mike Staley wrote:<BR>
> >     When you know when the fighting is going to start, you play with your <BR>
> >maintenance scheds to have maximum availability. Your opponent, however,<BR>
> >generally doesn't, so only 1/3 of their fleet is generally available.<BR>
<BR>
> Increasing readiness in a hostile nation's military is pretty easy for our<BR>
> intelligence services to spot (most of the time) and is one of the first<BR>
> things placed on the president's daily briefings.  A hostile nation going to<BR>
> maximum military readiness would have a CIA official getting the president's<BR>
> attention *right now*.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, but look at the Yom Kippur War, the Egyptians went onto maximum <BR>
readiness well before the war and then just sat there, waiting for the Isreali <BR>
response to get lax. Or you can schedule your attack to take place just <BR>
after your annual maneuvers. Best place to hide a tree is in a forest. Even <BR>
more doable in Traveller with the communications lag<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:42:03 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: re: OT pathetic U.S. military<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> Increasing readiness in a hostile nation's military is pretty easy for our<BR>
>> intelligence services to spot (most of the time) and is one of the first<BR>
>> things placed on the president's daily briefings.  A hostile nation going to<BR>
>> maximum military readiness would have a CIA official getting the president's<BR>
>> attention *right now*.<BR>
><BR>
>Ah, but look at the Yom Kippur War, the Egyptians went onto maximum <BR>
>readiness well before the war and then just sat there, waiting for the Isreali <BR>
>response to get lax. Or you can schedule your attack to take place just <BR>
>after your annual maneuvers. Best place to hide a tree is in a forest. Even <BR>
>more doable in Traveller with the communications lag<BR>
<BR>
Or, if you are really willing to spend some resources, you can stage a<BR>
max-readiness alert, and then stand-down when the other guy reacts to it.<BR>
That help set doubts in the other guy's mind of whether the next time will<BR>
be a false alarm.  That's what help  get the Israelis in 1973.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:06:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: H&E V1.0.2 Released<BR>
<BR>
H&E V1.0.2 has been released. Download details can be found at:-<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
<BR>
This updated version includes a number of minor bug fixes and several new<BR>
features, namely:-<BR>
<BR>
*Various internal modifications carried out to make program more reliable<BR>
and efficient.<BR>
<BR>
*Random Subsectors may now be generated within a pregenerated Sector.<BR>
<BR>
*Sector Editor now allows Subsectors to be moved within a pregenerated<BR>
Sector.<BR>
<BR>
*World Name Generator added. World names can be generated during<BR>
Random Sector/Subsector Generation or in the UWP Editor.<BR>
<BR>
*MT System Map added. User can now select between MT or T2300 System Map.<BR>
<BR>
*Temperature Worksheet now calculates Winter temperatures correctly.<BR>
<BR>
*Some PBs did not generate their maps correctly. This has now been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*World icons did not correspond to world type when World Details was<BR>
selected. This has now been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*Full Sector/Subsector Generation is now timed.<BR>
<BR>
*Systems within Jump Range of a System can now be calculated in Jump<BR>
Calculator.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2585<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (rly-zc04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.4]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:07:20 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:07:07 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id FAA15717;<BR>
	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:06:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:05:19 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id FAA15543<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:05:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:05:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006110905.FAA15543@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2585<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2586</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/11/00 11:57:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2586<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
Re: ground combat B<BR>
Possibly of interest<BR>
Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
Re: TML/sf consim posting<BR>
Re: Re: Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions)<BR>
RE:  Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2585<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Backwards Mask<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: ground combat II<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Industrial capability, was: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:14:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Jeff wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>Huh?  I've been updating at least once a month!  The last update<BR>
>was 28 May!  Check the What's New link; I don't tend to mark<BR>
>things "New" or "Updated" in the site, just list them in the<BR>
>announcements and on the What's New page.<BR>
<BR>
It would help if you also updated the date on the Default.htm. At least<BR>
you'd be able to tell at a glance the last time the site was updated.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:15:11 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat B<BR>
<BR>
Actually the Mean Time Between Failure decreases as a system gets more<BR>
complex - that is why a board with few complonts has a high MTBF.<BR>
Redundancy increases MTBF.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>The MTBF increases with the complexity of the system.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:51:36 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Possibly of interest<BR>
<BR>
A new gaming web portal has just opened. No real Traveller content yet but<BR>
that will change soon. Lots of other stuff though.<BR>
<BR>
It's at www.fiction-fantasy.net<BR>
<BR>
If folks want to get involved, they're keen to hear from you.<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 06:32:56 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (Note: Values for Range, Influence, R&D, and Ownership have been<BR>
> modified from the original UCP format to match John Wood's post. <BR>
> Additionally, the value "S" [for "Special"] has been added for Public<BR>
> Image and Paranoia, to reflect variable values for these fields.)<BR>
> <BR>
> The following UCP is for M1100:<BR>
> <BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards: 5-DB(S)-CDD PubW Manu7 Svc3 Non0 A6(S)    Im<BR>
<BR>
snip<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards, LIC, was founded on Sylea in IE 6 by Marcus<BR>
> Weishaupt, a businessman of Solomani ancestry. Its first contract was<BR>
> to construct standard 100-ton scout/couriers for the Imperial<BR>
> Interstellar Scout Service (IISS).<BR>
<BR>
snip<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> As the Imperium has expanded, AuricTech has shifted its base of<BR>
> operations to the Spinward Marches.  By 1100, AuricTech has become a<BR>
> major supplier of warships (especially cruisers) to the Imperial Navy<BR>
> and IISS, with shipyards at Mora, Trin, and Lunion.<BR>
<BR>
I'm curious...why would a company do this? This would be the equivalent of<BR>
GE, while having contracts in hand for dozens of nuclear submarines,<BR>
moving the Electric Boat division from Groton to Elbonia to concentrate on<BR>
building mud battleships for the Elbonian Navy. (well, not _that_ bad, but<BR>
close) The Spinward Marches are the rough, provicial, relatively low tech<BR>
frontier of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
A corporation with an 1100 year history, founded on Sylea, by one of<BR>
Cleon's industrialist upstarts doesn't relocate to the provinces...it<BR>
opens profitable facilities and subsidiaries there, but not the whole<BR>
shooting match. Besides, you gotta hang around the Court, and IN HQ;<BR>
that's where the big contracts are decided.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not saying you're wrong, but the history to justify this could be<BR>
interesting. Has AuricTech had it's ups and downs? Been sold three or four<BR>
times...maybe the current incarnation, based in the Spinward Marches has<BR>
only the name and gold-plated ships in common with the original?<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 06:47:29 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Sealand (was RE: HavenCo)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > 4) All is as stated, but one of the high ranking officials is called<BR>
> > George Smiley...;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Huh?<BR>
<BR>
George Smiley is John LeCarre's master spy; he's in most of his books,<BR>
from _The Spy Who Came in From the Cold_ to _Smiley's People_. A master of<BR>
the double, triple and quadruple cross; Le Carre got the tone of real<BR>
espionage and counter-espionage during the Cold War down, well, cold ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Things don't usually turn out well at all in le Carre's books, that<BR>
characters survive at all is a wonder.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:43:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TML/sf consim posting<BR>
<BR>
A bunch of threads intended for the sf-consim list seem<BR>
to be showing up on the TML - including pieces of a rather<BR>
nasty discussion about US military readiness (the TML people<BR>
should be glad they're only seeing parts of it) and discussion<BR>
about Canadian helicopters. Anyone have any idea why?<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:51:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions)<BR>
<BR>
>A 13.0 PEMS is expensive for a short-range det-laser missile, but is<BR>
affordable for the<BR>
>long-range version.  LIDAR is a lot cheaper, but it is an active sensor.<BR>
<BR>
This is basically right. I actually decided a 12-12.5 sensor was good enough<BR>
in the Definitive Sensor Rules (I wasn't allowing for jamming.) The FIM needs<BR>
a<BR>
sensor good enough to see the target when its launched, but it gets the<BR>
previously-detetected bonus to make up for the range difference.<BR>
<BR>
The real reason most missiles are controlled or SIMs is that it produces a<BR>
more "traveller" flavour - missile turrets that only fire once per turn for<BR>
several turns.<BR>
FIMs can be salvoed en masse out of cannisters or bays. I noticed this in the<BR>
MCS - a well-designed ship fires all its missiles in 1-2 turns, and fires a<BR>
lot of<BR>
them. My 10,000 tonne Zho strike cruiser fires 320 SIMs/turn for four turns -<BR>
if<BR>
they were FIMS, it could unload all of them in one salvo.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:59:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE:  Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
<BR>
>I was doing some calculations on missile EW & surviveability.  The results<BR>
are below.<BR>
>[ships need big sensors to hit a heavily stealthed missile]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Interesting. I don't think there's a major error...minor error<BR>
is that LIDAR uses half the visible signature rather than the<BR>
whole visible signature (I think). IThis lets you get by with a LIDAR-15<BR>
or 15.5 if its coming from the sun - still hard. I guess I should have put<BR>
LIDAR-16s on the chart.<BR>
<BR>
It's an interesting piece of<BR>
math.  Maybe I need to change the HEPLAR passive signature<BR>
modifiers...At one time I thought that the HEPLAR signature should<BR>
just replace the ships normal IR signature, ignoring masking, but I don't<BR>
think I put that into the rules.<BR>
<BR>
Long range warhead missiles due seem to be pretty nasty. The only<BR>
solution (aside from having really good LIDAR operators so they never blow<BR>
their EASY sensor roll) is to have sensor/PD pickets in a 1-hex circle<BR>
around your high-value target - and even then, those pickets are going to be<BR>
expensive.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:49:31 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Ok, this is kind of GURPS:Traveller specific, but I saw a really <BR>
great write up of some Starship and vehicle quirks that were really <BR>
good.  Anyone else recall where they are though?<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:01:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
on 6/11/00 2:14 AM, Stuart Ferris at stuart.ferris@virgin.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff wrote:-<BR>
> <BR>
>> Huh?  I've been updating at least once a month!  The last update<BR>
>> was 28 May!  Check the What's New link; I don't tend to mark<BR>
>> things "New" or "Updated" in the site, just list them in the<BR>
>> announcements and on the What's New page.<BR>
> <BR>
> It would help if you also updated the date on the Default.htm. At least<BR>
> you'd be able to tell at a glance the last time the site was updated.<BR>
> <BR>
> Stuart Ferris<BR>
> stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
> http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
A what's new button would help.  I use a simple perl scripts on my own sites<BR>
that lets visitors check for changed files so they don't have to search the<BR>
whole site.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:04:20 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2585<BR>
<BR>
Tod wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose I should complain to Loren, as I see his name in the credits for<BR>
>  Striker.  Geeze, Loren, been doing this for a while?<BR>
<BR>
For a few years :  )<BR>
<BR>
What is the specifc problem here? (I haven't been following this thread too <BR>
closely.)<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:17:36 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
I did something similar and pased them around to some folks, but I <BR>
lost my copy in an HD crash. <BR>
<BR>
theres also a system in Space Opera for ship malfunctions you <BR>
could use for that.<BR>
<BR>
if somebody still has a copy of the stuff I did, could they e-mail me <BR>
a copy?<BR>
otherwise I will have to redo the whole bloody list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:08:30 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Backwards Mask<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11-06-00 3:07:20 AM CST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:10:45 -0400<BR>
>  From: Kevin Combs <beast013@flash.net><BR>
>  Subject: TNE Book Trilogy<BR>
>  <BR>
>  I have finished reading the first two books of the<BR>
>  Traveller: New Era trilogy (The Death of Wisdom and To Dream<BR>
>  of Chaos).  Great novels!  I was wondering if the third Book<BR>
>  (The Backwards Mask?) was ever printed. <BR>
<BR>
Nope.<BR>
<BR>
> If not, are there<BR>
>  plans to do so?  <BR>
<BR>
I'll check with Marc.<BR>
<BR>
> Is it available on line?<BR>
<BR>
Nope.<BR>
  <BR>
>  Thanks in advance.<BR>
<BR>
You're welcome.  <BR>
<BR>
LKW <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:32:22 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Let me be a little more specific as to my intent.  (I did, BTW, find <BR>
the quirks list I was looking for - helpful, but).<BR>
<BR>
My players will be starting with a starship. Due to the nature of the <BR>
campaign, the standard Scout Ship won't cut it.  So, I designed a <BR>
"Deep Exploration Class" ship (longer jumps, weapons, vehicle, <BR>
lab, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now, <BR>
my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if <BR>
the scout didn't want to spend it all.  However, I thought, for flavor <BR>
as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or <BR>
"limitations" to the ship might be interesting.  <BR>
<BR>
I'm contemplating using some limitations as per CI - i.e. Fickle.  <BR>
So, let's make the Jump drives or Maneuveur drives fickle.  <BR>
However, since this affects just one part of the ship, I don't see it <BR>
appropriate to base the point reduction on the cost of the Whole <BR>
ship.  While limitations are usually applied to skills or advantages, <BR>
you might be looking at just a few points.  A 70% reduction from <BR>
the whole 61 points seems a little drastic to me, but maybe not.<BR>
<BR>
The Quirks I found were helpful, and I could certainly see charging <BR>
1 pt each for such things as:<BR>
<BR>
Battle-scarred, Tacky Decor,  Exposed wiring, and the like.  Maybe <BR>
- -3 to - 5 points in quirks would be appropriate!  Plus, it would <BR>
certainly add a little colour to the came (i.e. Millenium Falcon).<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jun 2000, at 10:49, James Pearson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ok, this is kind of GURPS:Traveller specific, but I saw a really great<BR>
> write up of some Starship and vehicle quirks that were really good. <BR>
> Anyone else recall where they are though?<BR>
> <BR>
> There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
> Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
> -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
> http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:00:45 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now,<BR>
> my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if<BR>
> the scout didn't want to spend it all.<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest giving the ship to the group without them having to<BR>
spend character points for it. After all, they are required to have the<BR>
ship for the campaign.<BR>
<BR>
> However, I thought, for flavor<BR>
> as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or<BR>
> "limitations" to the ship might be interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Always a good thing  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
In general, small flavor-adding quirks are the best ones. Quirks that<BR>
get your characters killed are not funny.<BR>
<BR>
* Faulty kitchen equipment sometimes malfunctions, with less-than-tasty<BR>
results.<BR>
<BR>
* Lights switch off every now and then.<BR>
<BR>
* The microphone on the bridge sometimes switches on by itself,<BR>
broadcasting the dialogue on the bridge to the entire ship.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:22:31 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
>The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now,<BR>
>my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if<BR>
>the scout didn't want to spend it all.  However, I thought, for flavor<BR>
>as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or<BR>
>"limitations" to the ship might be interesting.<BR>
<BR>
The point of the GURPS point system is to provide balance within the game. A<BR>
100 point character should have roughly the same importance as any other 100<BR>
point character. The Ship Patron is an attempt to simulate acquiring a ship<BR>
through the character generation process. A character spends a number of<BR>
points to get a ship, but then the ship is his to use. I might even be able<BR>
to see a few characters teaming up to purchase a ship with character points.<BR>
However, if you know that the player characters are going to need the ship<BR>
for the campaign, they should just get it with no points spent. They are not<BR>
getting an advantage over the other players' characters.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:23:11 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
...<BR>
>>Probably not, but the dominance of the Hi-Pops is one of the quandaries<BR>
>>of the number crunchers. I prefer to reduce per capita wealth/production/<BR>
>>industrialization for UPP pop 9+ (I also favour a sharp divide between<BR>
>>fusion & pre-fusion based power supplies, but that's just me, I guess).<BR>
><BR>
>Why reduce the industrialization index for them?<BR>
>(I agree on the pre-fusion/fusion line though. I had forgotten about that.)<BR>
<BR>
  i) to avoid *TU being totally lop-sided wrt their influence; it will still<BR>
predominate, but it at least shifts the bell-curve from Pop A to Pop 9 worlds.<BR>
 ii) credibility - billions of drones running a vast industrial machine seems<BR>
dystopian, not to say unbelievable insofar as turning their world into a hell.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>I suppose part of it goes to a perceptual prejudice based on the economic<BR>
>rating from CT where only Pop 9 and A worlds are "Industrial" and any world<BR>
>Pop 6 or less is "Non-Industrial". Just how far do those ratings go in<BR>
>defining a worlds character or capacity?<BR>
<BR>
  I prefer to treat it as "(highly) Industrial-(ized)" - there's certainly<BR>
no precedent nor rationale for restricting capital good production to<BR>
Hi-Pop worlds only.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:43:29 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat II<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat II<BR>
...<BR>
>> Reflective/ablative armours aren't too serious in most T* versions any-<BR>
>> more, AFAIK. And that laser (penetration 24 = ~8.5cm/steel) I suggested<BR>
>> is _very_ modest - try FS for their efforts to achieve orbital superiority<BR>
>> from the planetary surface!<BR>
><BR>
>High efficiency mirroring/ablative coating may not protect the missile for<BR>
>long, but even a slight delay means that the PD laser must remain on target<BR>
>for that time and cannot be tasked elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
  The SDI people pretty much disproved that even for late `80's lasers.<BR>
OTU lasers are drastically deadlier; high efficiency mirroring and stealth<BR>
is also problematic :><BR>
<BR>
  Unless your enemy has a brigade of Elvi in their OrBat, of course :><BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>>> that make them look like your grav tanks.  They are optically guided on<BR>
>>> terminal track and have stealth capabilities.  They are still probably<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Blip enhancers and stealth capabilities seem to be mutually incompatible :)<BR>
><BR>
>Stealth on approach, blip enhancers on terminal track.<BR>
<BR>
  Also matching thermal sig? But how do you show up on their C3I net as<BR>
friendlies rather than unknown (which, honestly, means "prepare to bug-zap")?<BR>
<BR>
>> And grav tanks have signatures of all sorts - thermal, magnetic, radio/<BR>
>> radar EMF, and visual, of course.<BR>
...<BR>
>> If it's small and missile-sized, and in my AO, it was hostile, yes?<BR>
>> Sure, we lose some liason vehicles that way, but that just means more<BR>
>> promotions to go around :><BR>
>> <BR>
>> FWIW, those missiles are going to need to be _very_ sophisticated<BR>
>> on an individual basis to have all of the armour, propulsion, and the<BR>
>> electronics to decide that a road-sign isn't a grav-tank :|<BR>
><BR>
>Not really. The Wasp over the horizon anti-tank missile prototype<BR>
>demonstrated the ability to locate and kill tanks using rather<BR>
>unsophisticated technology ($500,000 at TL 7). It will only get cheaper over<BR>
>time.  Using traveller credits (based on 1970s dollars) the cost is more<BR>
>like Cr 250,000 at TL 7.<BR>
<BR>
  Is this "Wasp" a true fire & forget (using the same EO identifiers that<BR>
a PD system might to decide to zap said missile) or is it (tele)-optically<BR>
guided like (IIRC) Maverick? If so, what's the command link, and how is it<BR>
hardened against EW?<BR>
<BR>
>I'd dispense with armor in favor of anti-laser coatings.  Construction is<BR>
>largely composite for low observability and low cost.  Probably a simple<BR>
>high speed air-breather motor for approach to target, with a high thrust,<BR>
>short duration chemical rocket for terminal phase ( say 20 or 30 Gs of<BR>
>acceleration for a few seconds.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, plasma guns are interchangeable with lasers, so keep the armour :(<BR>
Of course, your jet engine & high-speed attack mode scream "hostile - not<BR>
a tank, IR sig is silly! Kill me, _please_!!". The users, if not the<BR>
vendors, might consider this a flaw.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure what the kill mechanism is yet.  Possibly simple kinetic<BR>
>(trials have already demonstrated rockets with more than three times to<BR>
>velocity of any tank gun).  Possible hyper velocity with a Schardin effect<BR>
>penetrater. Possible the infamous one-shot laser.<BR>
<BR>
  I'd go with a stand-off, to avoid the final defenses that proliferate<BR>
post-Striker; either a high-energy one-shot per FFS(2?) or deploy your<BR>
own ATGM's before withdrawing your drone. There's always KEAP, HEAP/SFF,<BR>
HE, etc., but those need to get real close or (obviously) contact.<BR>
<BR>
>> And they can still get ripped to <bleep> by running across an armoured<BR>
>> patrol before they've been given orders to prosecute targets.<BR>
><BR>
>We're cruising a very high speed, low altitude NOE here.  The missile's<BR>
>observable time will be low.<BR>
<BR>
  You cannot, however, outrun the units you're encountering, as they too<BR>
have similar NOE speeds - and warning will pass on ahead, quite possibly<BR>
by alerts from (hostile) remote sensor posts and drones.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:51:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Depends on <BR>
1) How sadistic you are<BR>
2) How machositic they are<BR>
3) How they die<BR>
<BR>
;><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In general, small flavor-adding quirks are the best ones. Quirks that<BR>
get your characters killed are not funny.<BR>
<BR>
* Faulty kitchen equipment sometimes malfunctions, with less-than-tasty<BR>
results.<BR>
<BR>
* Lights switch off every now and then.<BR>
<BR>
* The microphone on the bridge sometimes switches on by itself,<BR>
broadcasting the dialogue on the bridge to the entire ship.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:51:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Uhh...<BR>
<BR>
Where did you find that list?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James<BR>
Pearson<BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 9:32 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Let me be a little more specific as to my intent.  (I did, BTW, find <BR>
the quirks list I was looking for - helpful, but).<BR>
<BR>
My players will be starting with a starship. Due to the nature of the <BR>
campaign, the standard Scout Ship won't cut it.  So, I designed a <BR>
"Deep Exploration Class" ship (longer jumps, weapons, vehicle, <BR>
lab, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now, <BR>
my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if <BR>
the scout didn't want to spend it all.  However, I thought, for flavor <BR>
as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or <BR>
"limitations" to the ship might be interesting.  <BR>
<BR>
I'm contemplating using some limitations as per CI - i.e. Fickle.  <BR>
So, let's make the Jump drives or Maneuveur drives fickle.  <BR>
However, since this affects just one part of the ship, I don't see it <BR>
appropriate to base the point reduction on the cost of the Whole <BR>
ship.  While limitations are usually applied to skills or advantages, <BR>
you might be looking at just a few points.  A 70% reduction from <BR>
the whole 61 points seems a little drastic to me, but maybe not.<BR>
<BR>
The Quirks I found were helpful, and I could certainly see charging <BR>
1 pt each for such things as:<BR>
<BR>
Battle-scarred, Tacky Decor,  Exposed wiring, and the like.  Maybe <BR>
- -3 to - 5 points in quirks would be appropriate!  Plus, it would <BR>
certainly add a little colour to the came (i.e. Millenium Falcon).<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jun 2000, at 10:49, James Pearson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ok, this is kind of GURPS:Traveller specific, but I saw a really great<BR>
> write up of some Starship and vehicle quirks that were really good. <BR>
> Anyone else recall where they are though?<BR>
> <BR>
> There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
> Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
> -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
> http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:51:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Industrial capability, was: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote,<BR>
> i) to avoid *TU being totally lop-sided wrt their influence; it will still<BR>
predominate, but it at least shifts the bell-curve from Pop A to Pop 9<BR>
worlds.<BR>
 ii) credibility - billions of drones running a vast industrial machine<BR>
seems<BR>
dystopian, not to say unbelievable insofar as turning their world into a<BR>
hell.<<BR>
<BR>
To the first I say, if that's how it goes...<BR>
To the second I say, amusing vision. I would note however that any world<BR>
with an atmosphere must have a tainted atmosphere to be Industrial.<BR>
Obviously turning your world into a hell is a bit of a prerequisite for it<BR>
being Industiral.<BR>
<BR>
>I prefer to treat it as "(highly) Industrial-(ized)" - there's certainly<BR>
no precedent nor rationale for restricting capital good production to<BR>
Hi-Pop worlds only.<<BR>
<BR>
No there isn't, but it seems that's how things keep working out.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:54:56 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
My apologies to any and all.  I know that you are used to at least<BR>
weekly<BR>
(sometimes daily) updates at Traveller Downport.  That standard will<BR>
return<BR>
very soon, but for the moment I am in the middle of a major relocation<BR>
and<BR>
job change.  As mentioned earlier on this list, I am relocating to<BR>
Raleigh,<BR>
North Carolina from Maine.  The reason behind it is a new career<BR>
starting.<BR>
I'm going from "displaced worker/full-time student" frying pan into the<BR>
fire<BR>
of being the first Java Developer in a 100% VB software company<BR>
(www.Report2Web.com).  The month of June may be a write off, but I'll<BR>
be<BR>
back, big as life, by the time the Fireworks explode over Wake Forest<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Na'ew, 'scuse me whaal I go work on mah accaent, ya'll. :-p<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
> Seems to be a lack of updates to these sites recently.<BR>
><BR>
> Colin, Jeff, what's happening?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2586<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:57:22 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:56:51 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA36059;<BR>
	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:55:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:54:59 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id OAA36016<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:54:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:54:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006111854.OAA36016@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2586<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2587</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/11/00 3:14:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2587<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: ground combat B (& robots)<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: TML/sf consim posting<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2586<BR>
secret design competition<BR>
Re: Re: Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions)<BR>
RAFM Traveller Ships mini's for sale<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Ground Combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:04:43 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ground combat B (& robots)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: ground combat B<BR>
...<BR>
>Above I decided that gravs were unnecessary.  As posted previously, I select<BR>
>high efficiency air breather engines for cruising.  Now grav of fusion to<BR>
>worry about.  These things should be cheap at TL 9.  Striker rules state<BR>
>that long range drones require grav, and cruising speed is a max of<BR>
>200km/hr.  WHAT!? The ALCMB has a range of 200km and better performance.<BR>
>The 1950s Snark had intercontinental range.  DARPA is working with Vought to<BR>
>develop an 11,000km range ALCM.<BR>
<BR>
  Design it as either a vehicle or a/c, and then add a drone brain - assume<BR>
Pilot skill-0 where relevant (not that it should be allowed to dog-fight!).<BR>
Or give it a Target Memory system - S1, p. 34.<BR>
<BR>
>As I continued designing currently deployed systems, the more it seems that<BR>
>Striker is badly out of step with reality.  Is this also true of FFS2?<BR>
<BR>
  Well, it's a game of futuristic tech, and the a/c sequence wasn't <BR>
written by an aerospace engineer? :)<BR>
<BR>
>> Keep in mind that Traveller fusion & grav hardware seems to be very robust,<BR>
>> quite possibly with no moving parts other than the controls (i.e., this is<BR>
>> _not_ a maintenance-intensive system like AFV suspension/transmissions or<BR>
>> internal-combustion/propeller aviation engines)<BR>
><BR>
>Ah, the mythical 'everything is 100 realiable in the future'.  Sorry, don't<BR>
>buy it.  Suspension, powerplant may have fewer (or no) moving parts, the the<BR>
<BR>
  I neither buy it nor claim it. OTOH, OTU _very strongly_ implies that these<BR>
main-stay techs are essentially failure-free if a minimal maintenance regime<BR>
is followed ("grav-plates/intertial-comp"). And both grav-tanks and drone<BR>
systems lack the most intensive historical systems - suspension & powerplant<BR>
as we've both indicated.<BR>
<BR>
  If complex electronics are that unreliable, how are drone weapons a fix?<BR>
FWIW, under that scheme, even semi-autonomous robots are simply impractical.<BR>
<BR>
>controls are going to be even more complex.  What happens when the computer<BR>
>crashes?  Super complex electronics fail, or worse, just give erroneous<BR>
>information.  The MTBF increases with the complexity of the system.  Large,<BR>
>complex systems avoid problem like this through redundancy, at the price of<BR>
>increased cost and higher demands for maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
  Well, if now-obsolete high efficiency air breather engines are supposed<BR>
to be cheap (i - maintenance & production skill sets are leaving civilian<BR>
economy, so techs must be trained, and paid well to learn an unsaleable<BR>
skill, ii - production industry has no civilian back-bone, so costs will<BR>
also rise. Drat!), then what about current, well-established _reliable_<BR>
electronics? Those things may not be cheap at TL 9, but they'll certainly<BR>
be good value for money.<BR>
<BR>
  Of course, a grav-tank carries multi-purpose back-ups - a drone that <BR>
runs into a serious glitch runs into terrain shortly thereafter.<BR>
<BR>
>Do your turrets move? Do you laser tuurets/guns have bearings? motors etc.<BR>
>Systems will wear out/fail with routine use.  We aren't even calculating in<BR>
>the harsh environment of combat.<BR>
<BR>
  Of course we're allowing for these issues, but they seem to apply at worst<BR>
evenly between the two sides. FWIW, fusion & grav gear in Trav can be left<BR>
cold for a long time, but I'm not sure that applies to your aircraft. Oh, and<BR>
aircraft frames (incl. ALGCM's) need to be designed for specific planetary<BR>
atmospheres and gravities - and they don't work on vacuum worlds :><BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Given that I am postulation a more sophosticated ATGM, lets say cost ratio<BR>
>is more like 1:20  still a good exchange rate, especially if I get a kill or<BR>
>disable only with 1 out of 10 rounds (pretty low kill rate for a modern ATGM).<BR>
<BR>
  For shots fired in envelope, very low. Shots fired against targets with<BR>
massive active defenses, unknown :>  In any case, not all launchers will<BR>
survive to get a shot off - maybe they'll be hit by artillery first?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
    R-38.A.1.a.; "A drone vehicle may be ordered to go to a position <BR>
  located by counter battery radar." - Striker: Book 2, p. 9.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:38:49 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
http://www.estarcion.com/kaleja/77quirks.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jun 2000, at 11:51, Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Uhh...<BR>
> <BR>
> Where did you find that list?<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks<BR>
> <BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James<BR>
> Pearson Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 9:32 AM To:<BR>
> traveller@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Let me be a little more specific as to my intent.  (I did, BTW, find<BR>
> the quirks list I was looking for - helpful, but).<BR>
> <BR>
> My players will be starting with a starship. Due to the nature of the<BR>
> campaign, the standard Scout Ship won't cut it.  So, I designed a<BR>
> "Deep Exploration Class" ship (longer jumps, weapons, vehicle, lab,<BR>
> etc.).<BR>
> <BR>
> The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now,<BR>
> my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if<BR>
> the scout didn't want to spend it all.  However, I thought, for flavor<BR>
> as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or<BR>
> "limitations" to the ship might be interesting.  <BR>
> <BR>
> I'm contemplating using some limitations as per CI - i.e. Fickle.  So,<BR>
> let's make the Jump drives or Maneuveur drives fickle.  However, since<BR>
> this affects just one part of the ship, I don't see it appropriate to<BR>
> base the point reduction on the cost of the Whole ship.  While<BR>
> limitations are usually applied to skills or advantages, you might be<BR>
> looking at just a few points.  A 70% reduction from the whole 61<BR>
> points seems a little drastic to me, but maybe not.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Quirks I found were helpful, and I could certainly see charging 1<BR>
> pt each for such things as:<BR>
> <BR>
> Battle-scarred, Tacky Decor,  Exposed wiring, and the like.  Maybe -3<BR>
> to - 5 points in quirks would be appropriate!  Plus, it would<BR>
> certainly add a little colour to the came (i.e. Millenium Falcon).<BR>
> <BR>
> Any suggestions?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 11 Jun 2000, at 10:49, James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Ok, this is kind of GURPS:Traveller specific, but I saw a really<BR>
> > great write up of some Starship and vehicle quirks that were really<BR>
> > good. Anyone else recall where they are though?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
> > Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
> > -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
> > http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
> Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
> -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
> http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:43:30 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>My players will be starting with a starship. Due to the nature of the <BR>
>campaign, the standard Scout Ship won't cut it.  So, I designed a <BR>
>"Deep Exploration Class" ship (longer jumps, weapons, vehicle, <BR>
>lab, etc.).<BR>
>The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now, <BR>
>my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if <BR>
>the scout didn't want to spend it all.  However, I thought, for flavor <BR>
>as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or <BR>
>"limitations" to the ship might be interesting.  <BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
	I agree with others who suggested that it is not necessary to<BR>
	use the point system, as there is no need to balance the<BR>
	character(s) with the ship.  Adding quirks is often a fun thing<BR>
	anyways, so I will put in my Cr 0.02:<BR>
<BR>
	* Entering atmosphere (that is dense enough, at sufficient velocity)<BR>
	causes vibrations that move chairs and may shift items sitting on<BR>
	tables.  Sometimes odd noises are heard, and the ship might be<BR>
	thought to be haunted.<BR>
<BR>
	* The ship "pulls to the right" in atmosphere.  This could cause<BR>
	problems for a pilot who doesn't know about it when attempting<BR>
	difficult flying tasks.<BR>
<BR>
	* The air lock door open warning light on the bridge comes on for<BR>
	no apparent reason, from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
	* Sounds associated with lovemaking set off the antihijack program.<BR>
<BR>
	* There is a population of tiny flying critters living on the ship.<BR>
	They are a little smaller than fruit-flies, and feed on body oils,<BR>
	leftover food, and lubricants.<BR>
<BR>
	* When the ship is making sudden course changes, one of the showers<BR>
	comes on.<BR>
<BR>
	* The navigation seat on the bridge has a built-in massager.<BR>
<BR>
	OK, I'll stop now.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:48:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML/sf consim posting<BR>
<BR>
At 14:54 -0400 11/6/00, "Bruce Macintosh" <BR>
<bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
>A bunch of threads intended for the sf-consim list seem<BR>
>to be showing up on the TML - including pieces of a rather<BR>
>nasty discussion about US military readiness (the TML people<BR>
>should be glad they're only seeing parts of it) and discussion<BR>
>about Canadian helicopters. Anyone have any idea why?<BR>
<BR>
Mea culpa - helicopter thread was a mis-post from me due to adjacent <BR>
postal addresses.<BR>
<BR>
The military readiness one I'm not sure of,<BR>
<BR>
Sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:11:38 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2586<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> Ok, this is kind of GURPS:Traveller specific, but I saw a really <BR>
> great write up of some Starship and vehicle quirks that were really <BR>
> good.  Anyone else recall where they are though?<BR>
<BR>
Here's a set that isn't GT specific - not really even necessarily<BR>
Traveller specific; modesty prevents me from saying that it's a <BR>
really good writeup:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.estarcion.com/kaleja/77quirks.html<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:57:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: secret design competition<BR>
<BR>
Well, I've got the first design returned in my "secret" design<BR>
competition. And it's everything I could ask and more. Ditzie would be<BR>
proud, except Famile Spofulam seems to not be competing. <BR>
<BR>
Oh well, I'm sure the Gridlore Industries design will be a masterpiece<BR>
of overkill. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:59:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>A 13.0 PEMS is expensive for a short-range det-laser missile, but is<BR>
> affordable for the<BR>
>>long-range version.  LIDAR is a lot cheaper, but it is an active sensor.<BR>
><BR>
> This is basically right. I actually decided a 12-12.5 sensor was good<BR>
> enough in the Definitive Sensor Rules (I wasn't allowing for<BR>
> jamming.) The FIM needs a sensor good enough to see the target when<BR>
> its launched, but it gets the previously-detetected bonus to make up<BR>
> for the range difference.<BR>
<BR>
And I bet *that* is why you need a target lock before launching a<BR>
missile. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:01:41 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RAFM Traveller Ships mini's for sale<BR>
<BR>
  For anyone looking to get starship/spaceship mini's for Traveller,<BR>
I'm clearing out a bunch of spare RAFM blisters from their TNE line.<BR>
This is not an auction; I'll be looking for something around $4 US<BR>
per blister (or equivalent in trade), plus S&H. If you're interested,<BR>
e-mail me at:  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca  - _not_ the TML.<BR>
<BR>
CT designs:<BR>
  1x 5810 Launch (4/blister)<BR>
  2x 5811 Ships Boat (4/blister)<BR>
  2x 5812 Modular Cutter (4/blister)<BR>
  2x 5813 Shuttle (3/blister)<BR>
  1x 5814 Survey Ship <BR>
<BR>
TNE designs: (note that the "Clipper Modules" _do not_ include a Clipper!)<BR>
  2x 5818 Clipper Modules, Quarters - Fuel - Cargo<BR>
  1x 5819 Clipper Module, Weapon Bays <BR>
  1x 5823 Cuspid Class - Gunboat (5/blister)<BR>
<BR>
  Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:31:05 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
>Subject: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
...<BR>
>I have a few problems with "PD Dominance," most stemming from the fact<BR>
>that I *like* artillery. However, I do have some rational/logical type<BR>
>arguments against it as well:<BR>
><BR>
>1) PD can only defend out to line of sight. If the LOS is hampered<BR>
>enough (mountainous terrain, urban environment, etc.) then the range at<BR>
>which the incoming can be acquired and tracked is severely limited. This<BR>
>of course is dependant on the PD software and the availability of remote<BR>
>sensors to get a "first look" at incoming rounds which would be<BR>
>otherwise be untrackable.<BR>
<BR>
 FWIW, while more info is better, Striker restricts PD fire to<BR>
the first of a weapons three range bands. And of course, most <BR>
high- trajectory fire is going to be highly available in the <BR>
seconds before impact.<BR>
<BR>
>2) PD effectiveness will be limited severely by the ability of the<BR>
>system to maneuver the firing elements to intercept multiple targets. If<BR>
>the rounds are all coming from a relatively narrow area of the horizon,<BR>
>this should not present a problem. However, a nasty thing to do is to<BR>
>engage the target from multiple vectors, each widely seperated. In<BR>
>addition, a "perfect barrage" would include both high-angle attacks from<BR>
>relatively close in and flatter trajectory rounds from farther out. The<BR>
>PD systems would have to make several costly choices, each of which<BR>
>takes enough time to make a difference.<BR>
<BR>
  This would be a neat trick on practice maneuvers, and very hard anywhere<BR>
else - it assumes that the highly mobile have perfect (pre?)-information<BR>
as to their targets location - yet the targets are at least as mobile!<BR>
<BR>
  And big arty platforms are at least as specialized and not much cheaper<BR>
than a specialty PD unit, let alone a grav MBT with DP weapons.<BR>
<BR>
>3) Use warheads that contain single shot plasma or fusion weapons, or<BR>
>even CLC type lasers. This is basically a battlefield version of the<BR>
...<BR>
>rounds. Hopefully, that's all it would take to render the PD inoperative.<BR>
<BR>
  These will not be cheap rounds; forcing the use of expensive, logistics-<BR>
heavy rounds is a significant victory for PD in and of itself.<BR>
<BR>
>4) Use NOE terrain following munitions such as grav missles with SeFoP<BR>
<BR>
  Drone missiles aren't really arty for this purpose, anymore than light<BR>
grav "armoured cars" or infantry infiltrators are.<BR>
<BR>
>5) For those nasty "High Guard" PD tanks: use light vehicles with<BR>
>relatively heavy, low ROF lasers whose emitter is boom-mounted. These<BR>
>can use terrain masking, extend the boom, fire their Big Gun and then<BR>
>retract it, all while using natural cover and concealment. Combined with<BR>
>some good ECM, this should encourage those PD tanks to reduce their<BR>
>altitude considerably, which defeats their purpose admirably. The<BR>
>vehicle doesn't even have to be grav in nature, and using an EPG with an<BR>
>accumulator could decrease it's signature greatly. <BR>
<BR>
  Assume that grav AFV's are low altitude, probably NOE most of the time.<BR>
A PD system can function against indirect fire from behind cover, in a<BR>
similar fashion to arty; it should in any case be doing its job screened<BR>
at least a little ways behind the heavier armour elements.<BR>
<BR>
>6) Anti-Grav Tank mines: Most vehicles neglect underside PD guns. After<BR>
...<BR>
>high an altitude for the mines to engage, encourage them to use terrain<BR>
>masking via (5) above. <BR>
<BR>
  ATGM's - remote or manned - should be viable unless the rules say that<BR>
a given TL's defenses are too good - in Striker this doesn't really ever<BR>
occur, although it seems to be much easier in FF&S2 (?).<BR>
<BR>
  In any case, I'm one of the many who doubt that grav tanks will be <BR>
flying up in the clear blue sky; if they are, they'll build coverage<BR>
into the armour companies.<BR>
<BR>
>Essentially the PD vs. Arty war is won via mind games more than anything<BR>
...<BR>
>arty engagement. I personnally think that it is suicide for anything to<BR>
>be operating at altitudes much more than a few hundred feet given the<BR>
>ease with which it is possible to hide high-energy LOS light speed<BR>
>weapons with extremely low before-fire energy signatures. <BR>
<BR>
  I'll buy that, although the "saturate PD platform with smart munitions"<BR>
part of the arty plan sounds kinda expensive, especially as you likely<BR>
don't even know that it will work for a given strike.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Last there would be small units like those on the grav tanks mounted on<BR>
>skimmers that would accompany infantry units. These would be there to<BR>
>intercept mortar and arty rounds that weren't able to be engaged by<BR>
>other PD systems. I doubt that they would be sufficient to stop even a<BR>
>majority of the incoming rounds, but it sure would feel a lot better to<BR>
>have SOMETHING at least.<BR>
<BR>
  I think that a nice little infantry company support might be an MD<BR>
auto-mortar grav-AFV, with the fusion plant output running either a<BR>
PD or an AT laser when it's sited for fire missions. Even knocking<BR>
down only the big bad (120mm mortar, big rockets, missiles) rounds<BR>
will make life a lot more pleasant down in the mud. Hmm, maybe a small<BR>
mortar for spraying into PD zones, and a bigger one for thumping any<BR>
helpless targets that show up? Use the same power and run one only?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
    R-38.A.1.a.; "A drone vehicle may be ordered to go to a position <BR>
  located by counter battery radar." - Striker: Book 2, p. 9.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:04:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> James Pearson wrote:<BR>
>> However, I thought, for flavor<BR>
>> as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or<BR>
>> "limitations" to the ship might be interesting.<BR>
><BR>
> Always a good thing  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> In general, small flavor-adding quirks are the best ones. Quirks that<BR>
> get your characters killed are not funny.<BR>
><BR>
> * Faulty kitchen equipment sometimes malfunctions, with less-than-tasty<BR>
> results.<BR>
><BR>
> * Lights switch off every now and then.<BR>
><BR>
> * The microphone on the bridge sometimes switches on by itself,<BR>
> broadcasting the dialogue on the bridge to the entire ship.<BR>
<BR>
Ship's computer has an AS (Artificial Stupidity :-) user interface<BR>
designed by a fan of primitive science fiction. Pick any of the<BR>
following "personalities":<BR>
<BR>
1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
   calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
<BR>
I'm sure you can think of other "annoying computers" from fiction.<BR>
<BR>
Bonus. The list above is the list of configurations, except there's a<BR>
tiny flaw in the selection routine, causing the computer to have<BR>
something similar to MPD. The active personality switches at random<BR>
moments, often with the current personailty not having access to data<BR>
given to the other personalities.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:04:06 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
I'll take option #2 please.<BR>
<BR>
Life..don't talk to *ME* about life....:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 6:04 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> >> However, I thought, for flavor<BR>
> >> as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or<BR>
> >> "limitations" to the ship might be interesting.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Always a good thing  ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > In general, small flavor-adding quirks are the best ones. Quirks that<BR>
> > get your characters killed are not funny.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > * Faulty kitchen equipment sometimes malfunctions, with less-than-tasty<BR>
> > results.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > * Lights switch off every now and then.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > * The microphone on the bridge sometimes switches on by itself,<BR>
> > broadcasting the dialogue on the bridge to the entire ship.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ship's computer has an AS (Artificial Stupidity :-) user interface<BR>
> designed by a fan of primitive science fiction. Pick any of the<BR>
> following "personalities":<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
>    calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
> 2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
> 3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
> 4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
> <BR>
> I'm sure you can think of other "annoying computers" from fiction.<BR>
> <BR>
> Bonus. The list above is the list of configurations, except there's a<BR>
> tiny flaw in the selection routine, causing the computer to have<BR>
> something similar to MPD. The active personality switches at random<BR>
> moments, often with the current personailty not having access to data<BR>
> given to the other personalities.<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:56:09 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
> >The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now,<BR>
> >my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if<BR>
> >the scout didn't want to spend it all.<BR>
<BR>
> The point of the GURPS point system is to provide balance within the game. A<BR>
> 100 point character should have roughly the same importance as any other 100<BR>
> point character. The Ship Patron is an attempt to simulate acquiring a ship<BR>
> through the character generation process. A character spends a number of<BR>
> points to get a ship, but then the ship is his to use. I might even be able<BR>
> to see a few characters teaming up to purchase a ship with character points.<BR>
> However, if you know that the player characters are going to need the ship<BR>
> for the campaign, they should just get it with no points spent. They are not<BR>
> getting an advantage over the other players' characters.<BR>
<BR>
Yes they are. The player with the ship patron can say "You do<BR>
it my way on my ship or you can damned get out and walk."<BR>
[To paraphrase a ST ships captain PC I once played.] <BR>
<BR>
This is a _major_ change in the power dynamics of the characters<BR>
and the players. If Fred's character can effectively throw Bob's <BR>
character out of the game whenever he wants by saying "Get off my <BR>
ship." (unless of course the other PC's all like Bobs charecter <BR>
so much that they would quit the ship in Bobs charecter is thrown <BR>
off, but this will still warp the campaign.) then Bob is likely <BR>
to be nicer to Fred. The worse of a role player Fred is and the<BR>
less he separates his characters actions from his own the<BR>
nicer Bob is likely to be to him.<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest giving the ship owner more points, permission<BR>
to take more disadvantages, or both to pay for this ship. I<BR>
would also suggest requiring a Sense of Duty "Crew" Disadvantage<BR>
for the Captain so he can't be quite so autocratic.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover since the ship owning charecter might be taken as a<BR>
Patron or Ally by another PC or NPC his charecter sheet really<BR>
needs to have the Ship Patron Advantage on it to reflect his<BR>
true cost. Even if you want to simply give him the points<BR>
the point cost should be on the charecter sheet. (According<BR>
to my perceptions of GURPS, YMMV.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:05:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ship's computer has an AS (Artificial Stupidity :-) user interface<BR>
>designed by a fan of primitive science fiction. Pick any of the<BR>
>following "personalities":<BR>
><BR>
>4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
<BR>
No problem, you could always just teach it a little phenomenology!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Leonard, now I have to watch "Dark Star" again this week.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:10:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ground Combat<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: ground combat B<BR>
><BR>
> on 6/10/00 12:59 AM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Well, I'm finding striker terribly frustration in that I'm having problems<BR>
> building missile/drone that match the performance/capability of weapon<BR>
> systems CURRENTLY deployed.  Example:<BR>
><BR>
> Above I decided that gravs were unnecessary.  As posted previously, I<BR>
select<BR>
> high efficiency air breather engines for cruising.  Now grav of fusion to<BR>
> worry about.  These things should be cheap at TL 9.  Striker rules state<BR>
> that long range drones require grav, and cruising speed is a max of<BR>
> 200km/hr.  WHAT!?<BR>
<BR>
I suspect what they meant is that 'combat' speed is 200 kmh. Transit speed<BR>
may be higher. The 200 kmh number sounds like it needs to say '200 kmh at<BR>
TL9, rising by 50 kmh per TL'.<BR>
<BR>
Just like PD systems have problems acquiring high-speed targets, I suspect<BR>
high speed targets would have problems acquiring PD systems ;)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I would really, really plug a combination of grav and batteries as<BR>
superiour to anything else - remember that you can put a 30 second duration<BR>
'dash power pack' on top of a 1 hour duration battery (Active Power<BR>
Management is a trademanrk of Famile Spofulam. Unauthorised use will be<BR>
prosecuted to the extent allowed by the Imperial Ministry of Justice consent<BR>
order concerning Private War). If someone builds a 30 gee ATGM, I may have<BR>
to reconsider things ...<BR>
<BR>
>The ALCMB has a range of 200km and better performance.<BR>
> The 1950s Snark had intercontinental range.  DARPA is working with Vought<BR>
to<BR>
> develop an 11,000km range ALCM.<BR>
><BR>
> As I continued designing currently deployed systems, the more it seems<BR>
that<BR>
> Striker is badly out of step with reality.  Is this also true of FFS2?<BR>
<BR>
Remember that Striker was written in the early 80s, and that no rules system<BR>
is perfect. I would like Striker III to come out sometime, preferably with<BR>
FFS2 (or the new, improved errata-free FFS3!) compatible gear and a book of<BR>
pre-built gear, and the more stuff we fix and propose new or better rules<BR>
for, the better it will be.<BR>
<BR>
> Ah, the mythical 'everything is 100 realiable in the future'.  Sorry,<BR>
don't<BR>
> buy it.  Suspension, powerplant may have fewer (or no) moving parts, the<BR>
the<BR>
> controls are going to be even more complex.  What happens when the<BR>
computer<BR>
> crashes?  Super complex electronics fail, or worse, just give erroneous<BR>
> information.  The MTBF increases with the complexity of the system.<BR>
Large,<BR>
> complex systems avoid problem like this through redundancy, at the price<BR>
of<BR>
> increased cost and higher demands for maintenance.<BR>
><BR>
> Do your turrets move? Do you laser tuurets/guns have bearings? motors etc.<BR>
> Systems will wear out/fail with routine use.  We aren't even calculating<BR>
in<BR>
> the harsh environment of combat.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
A point to remember is the 'divide maintainence by four for 2 real<BR>
computers' ruel in FFS2. This really cuts back maintainence. Is it realistic<BR>
? Dunno. But remember, this is a universe that reckons with minimal spare<BR>
parts and 1 weeks maintainence per year, a starship can go for 40 years.<BR>
<BR>
The flip side, if you are arguing for missiles, is the way missile stocks<BR>
'wear out' over time - warheads becoming unreliable and all that. This<BR>
limits the stock of ammunition available (although in the 3I context, you<BR>
may just be able to go to your nearest hi-pop world and say 'We're putting<BR>
on a war, and I want 2200 TL9 ATGMs to go'). Energy weapons dont have that<BR>
limitation.<BR>
<BR>
FS's tanks also tend to be about half the weight of a modern MBT, which<BR>
probably helps as well (I am thinking of uparmouring them, and moving to a<BR>
'flying dome' configuration. Cluster bomblets in an anti-tank role are<BR>
worrying me).<BR>
<BR>
> Just to look at the tank/antitank weapon cost:<BR>
><BR>
> Currently MBT cost to ATGM cost ration is about 1:100 (comparing M1 Abrams<BR>
> against TOW).  Why should this change much.<BR>
<BR>
For a start, because the M1 Abrams is a bleeding-edge, overbuilt pig of a<BR>
thing (it is also the best tank ever built by the USA ... but I still would<BR>
have had Ford build Leopard IIs, back in the Seventies). I believe that the<BR>
trend in combat will be to more light tanks, because you cant build<BR>
something to be survivable against a fusion gun.<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, because TL9 brings the point defense capability of TL7 warships to<BR>
individual vehicles. Juat like you usually need salvos of Styx, Penguin or<BR>
Harpoon missiles to sink a modern frigate, you will usually need salvos of<BR>
ATGMs to kill a TL9 vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
>For any technological/cost<BR>
> advantage gained by armor there is likely to be corresponding gain in<BR>
> antiarmor technology/cost.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes, but specific systems can become obsolescent.<BR>
<BR>
> Given that I am postulation a more sophosticated ATGM, lets say cost ratio<BR>
> is more like 1:20  still a good exchange rate, especially if I get a kill<BR>
or<BR>
> disable only with 1 out of 10 rounds (pretty low kill rate for a modern<BR>
> ATGM).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
But pretty high for a bunch of other systems. Point defense will bring ATGMs<BR>
"back to the pack".<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose I should complain to Loren, as I see his name in the credits for<BR>
> Striker.  Geeze, Loren, been doing this for a while?<BR>
<BR>
Watch it. You may get told 'I wrote Frank Chadwick, and he is asking when<BR>
the new manuscript will be available for him to review' ;)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2587<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (rly-ye05.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.202]) by air-ye02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:14:39 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:14:08 2000<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA43580;<BR>
	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:11:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:10:46 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA43536<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:10:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:10:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006112210.SAA43536@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2587<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2588</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/11/00 5:43:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2588<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
Re: Starship quirks<BR>
Planet X?<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (was re: Graound Combat)<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Planet X?<BR>
[www] 11 Jun 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Re: Missile Electronic Warfare<BR>
Re: Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and  Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
Re: Missile Electronic Warfare<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
No messages on TML or Travpol for 48 hours!<BR>
Re: H&E V1.0.2 Released<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Subject: Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
Returning to the TML<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:15:13 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?<BR>
<BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
> >>Probably not, but the dominance of the Hi-Pops is one of the quandaries<BR>
> >>of the number crunchers. I prefer to reduce per capita wealth/production/<BR>
> >>industrialization for UPP pop 9+ <BR>
> >I suppose part of it goes to a perceptual prejudice based on the economic<BR>
> >rating from CT where only Pop 9 and A worlds are "Industrial" <BR>
<BR>
Only Hi Pop worlds with bad atmospheres are Industrial.<BR>
Apparently in the OTU industrial pollution inevitably pollutes <BR>
the atmosphere and everyone in the Imperium is an environmentalist <BR>
so Hi Pop worlds with good atmospheres never become Industrial.<BR>
Both these assumptions are questionable but they seem to be<BR>
implied by the charts. Otherwise some Hi Pop worlds with<BR>
non polluted worlds would be industrial.<BR>
<BR>
A possible explanation which arguably fits with Traveller's<BR>
notion that 'Everything is about economics.' and with the<BR>
real world fact that pollution control does have costs may be<BR>
that worlds that don't worry about atmospheric pollution<BR>
can produce goods more cheaply than worlds that do care<BR>
about pollution.<BR>
<BR>
> > and any world<BR>
> >Pop 6 or less is "Non-Industrial". Just how far do those ratings go in<BR>
> >defining a worlds character or capacity?<BR>
> <BR>
>   I prefer to treat it as "(highly) Industrial-(ized)" - there's certainly<BR>
> no precedent nor rationale for restricting capital good production to<BR>
> Hi-Pop worlds only.<BR>
<BR>
No but Industrial Worlds make more capital goods and thus<BR>
capital goods are cheaper to buy on Industrial Worlds<BR>
(due to economies of scale).<BR>
<BR>
I would say that Non Industrial worlds do not manufacture a<BR>
full range of consumer durables. They may manufacture some<BR>
consumer durables but must import others. (Earth example<BR>
a rust belt city whose factory builds electric dishwashers<BR>
but which must import ovens and clothes dryers.) This begs<BR>
the question of how interdicted Non Industrial worlds with<BR>
TL's of 4+ survive but that's another matter.<BR>
<BR>
Worlds which are neither Non Industrial nor Industrial _may_<BR>
manufacture sufficient consumer durables for domestic use but <BR>
are more likely to import some and export others.<BR>
<BR>
Industrial Worlds (by my definitions and barring Interdiction<BR>
or a complete breakdown of off planet trade) will produce<BR>
and export more consumer durable goods than they themselves<BR>
use.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:18:26 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:54:59 -0400 (EDT), "Stuart Ferris"<BR>
<stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Jeff wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>>Huh?  I've been updating at least once a month!  The last update<BR>
>>was 28 May!  Check the What's New link; I don't tend to mark<BR>
>>things "New" or "Updated" in the site, just list them in the<BR>
>>announcements and on the What's New page.<BR>
<BR>
>It would help if you also updated the date on the Default.htm. At least<BR>
>you'd be able to tell at a glance the last time the site was updated.<BR>
<BR>
... Except that that page _doesn't_ get updated; FrontPage<BR>
doesn't work that way - I actually have to change something on<BR>
that page in order to get it to change the date.  That's why I<BR>
have a 'What's New' link, second in the link list on the left,<BR>
and why the What's New page always has the date of the most<BR>
recent site update at the _top_.  That's also why I post<BR>
announcements of every update - and what's been updated - to<BR>
rgf.announce and the TML, always with a subject line of "[www] dd<BR>
Mmm yy - Freelance Traveller Updated".<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:18:28 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:54:59 -0400 (EDT), Tod Glenn<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>on 6/11/00 2:14 AM, Stuart Ferris at stuart.ferris@virgin.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Jeff wrote:-<BR>
 <BR>
>>> Huh?  I've been updating at least once a month!  The last update<BR>
>>> was 28 May!  Check the What's New link; I don't tend to mark<BR>
>>> things "New" or "Updated" in the site, just list them in the<BR>
>>> announcements and on the What's New page.<BR>
 <BR>
>> It would help if you also updated the date on the Default.htm. At least<BR>
>> you'd be able to tell at a glance the last time the site was updated.<BR>
<BR>
>A what's new button would help.  I use a simple perl scripts on my own sites<BR>
>that lets visitors check for changed files so they don't have to search the<BR>
>whole site.<BR>
<BR>
Link, not button, second one down in the black stripe, below the<BR>
sun.  "What's New".<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:30:19 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship quirks<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
> "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
> <BR>
>>However, if you know that the player characters are going to need the ship<BR>
>>for the campaign, they should just get it with no points spent. They are not<BR>
>>getting an advantage over the other players' characters.<BR>
> <BR>
>Yes they are. The player with the ship patron can say "You do<BR>
>it my way on my ship or you can damned get out and walk."<BR>
>[To paraphrase a ST ships captain PC I once played.] <BR>
><BR>
>This is a _major_ change in the power dynamics of the characters<BR>
>and the players. If Fred's character can effectively throw Bob's <BR>
>character out of the game whenever he wants by saying "Get off my <BR>
>ship."<BR>
<BR>
And that, of course, is a power one should not be able to buy for a player<BR>
character. There are only two people who should have the power to remove a<BR>
PC from a game: the GM and the player who plays that PC.<BR>
<BR>
>...(unless of course the other PC's all like Bobs character so much that<BR>
>they would quit the ship if Bobs character is thrown off, but this will<BR>
>still warp the campaign.) then Bob is likely to be nicer to Fred. <BR>
<BR>
No one in any player group I have either played in or GM'ed would let Fred<BR>
get away with throwing Bob off the ship. The likeliest result would be all<BR>
other PCs getting off and wishing Fred good riddance.<BR>
<BR>
>The worse of a role player Fred is and the less he separates his characters<BR>
>actions from his own the nicer Bob is likely to be to him.<BR>
<BR>
Which is exactly why no one I know would want to reward such behavior. 'Ship<BR>
owner' may be a major advantage in your campaigns, and if that is the case,<BR>
by all means use the 'Ship Patron' costs, but in other campaigns it would at<BR>
most be a quirk.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:30:01 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Planet X?<BR>
<BR>
So, what's up with "Planet X" of the Core subsector?  I'm basing <BR>
my Milieu 0 Campaign in that subsector and it has shown up a <BR>
couple of times.  Additionally, it doesn't show up in other eras or <BR>
other map sources I've looked at.  I'm using Galactitician 2.4.<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:33:43 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (was re: Graound Combat)<BR>
<BR>
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
>   I think that a nice little infantry company support might be an MD<BR>
> auto-mortar grav-AFV, with the fusion plant output running either a<BR>
> PD or an AT laser when it's sited for fire missions. Even knocking<BR>
> down only the big bad (120mm mortar, big rockets, missiles) rounds<BR>
> will make life a lot more pleasant down in the mud. Hmm, maybe a small<BR>
> mortar for spraying into PD zones, and a bigger one for thumping any<BR>
> helpless targets that show up? Use the same power and run one only?<BR>
<BR>
I'd be using a convention power plant, backed up with a 5 minute duration<BR>
battery pack. Fusion plants have a big minimum size under FFS2 up to about<BR>
TL13, and big fusion plants are very expensive.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:35:31 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
>Yes they are. The player with the ship patron can say "You do<BR>
>it my way on my ship or you can damned get out and walk."<BR>
>[To paraphrase a ST ships captain PC I once played.]<BR>
<BR>
I'm working on an assumption, which seemed to be clear in the original post:<BR>
the cost was going to be divided between the members of the party. As I<BR>
said, I can see the point of one player spending the points to get<BR>
ownership. I can see the point of a part of the party playing. These are big<BR>
advantages for the players.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is needed for the campaign, and the cost would be divided<BR>
between the players, then there is no reason to charge points for it since<BR>
no character is getting an advantage over the other characters.<BR>
<BR>
Check this out, from James' original post: "Now, my intent was to have the<BR>
whole group throw in a couple of points if the scout didn't want to spend it<BR>
all." If you get everybody to throw something in the pot, everything's even,<BR>
so there's no need to point balance. This is what I said.<BR>
<BR>
>This is a _major_ change in the power dynamics of the characters<BR>
>and the players. If Fred's character can effectively throw Bob's<BR>
>character out of the game whenever he wants by saying "Get off my<BR>
>ship." (unless of course the other PC's all like Bobs charecter<BR>
>so much that they would quit the ship in Bobs charecter is thrown<BR>
>off, but this will still warp the campaign.) then Bob is likely<BR>
>to be nicer to Fred. The worse of a role player Fred is and the<BR>
>less he separates his characters actions from his own the<BR>
>nicer Bob is likely to be to him.<BR>
<BR>
You're not saying anything I don't know already, nor are you saying anything<BR>
that I would disagree with.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:51:37 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet X?<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> So, what's up with "Planet X" of the Core subsector?  I'm basing<BR>
> my Milieu 0 Campaign in that subsector and it has shown up a<BR>
> couple of times.  Additionally, it doesn't show up in other eras or<BR>
> other map sources I've looked at.  I'm using Galactitician 2.4.<BR>
<BR>
Other than Terra (whose supplies are "alarmingly low"), Planet X is the<BR>
only known remaining source of Alludium Phosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:52:36 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] 11 Jun 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller<BR>
Resource has posted its most recent update to<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.  <BR>
<BR>
This update features:<BR>
<BR>
 - Heaven and Earth, the successor to World Builder Deluxe, has<BR>
   been released, and a link included in the Windows program<BR>
   listing in the Computer Connection in the Information Center. <BR>
<BR>
 - Because of the author's legal concerns, having nothing to do<BR>
   directly with Freelance Traveller, we have had to temporarily<BR>
   withdraw 101 Starships and the Shipyard designs reprinted<BR>
   therefrom. We have received assurances that as soon as the<BR>
   legal concerns have been dealt with appropriately, we will<BR>
   receive a new edition of 101 Starships for distribution.<BR>
   Freelance Traveller apologizes for this situation. <BR>
<BR>
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at<BR>
Freelance Traveller.  Please write to<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all of them, as we are<BR>
in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may be<BR>
temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good<BR>
will of Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our<BR>
existence, and to write for us, making our existence possible.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation<BR>
to The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to<BR>
Executive Network Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com)<BR>
for hosting services. Without organizations willing to cooperate<BR>
with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing needs, we would be unable<BR>
to bring you the articles and other resources that have made<BR>
Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on the <BR>
'net.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:01:02 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Missile Electronic Warfare<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
> Subject: RE:  Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions<BR>
and Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
><BR>
> I was doing some calculations on missile EW & surviveability.  The results<BR>
are below.<BR>
><BR>
> A ship attempting to achieve a fire control lock on a missile:<BR>
><BR>
> RADAR     LIDAR    Passive (IR)   Passive (Vis)<BR>
>     0            -1.5             -0.5              -1.5<BR>
Missile, 7 dT, Long Box, 15 MW, 20 AF<BR>
>                   -1.0                                -1.0<BR>
Military Ultrablack<BR>
>   -1.5<BR>
Extreme Stealth<BR>
>                                     -1.5<BR>
Extreme Thermal Masking<BR>
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------<BR>
>   -1.5           -2.5            -2.0              -2.5<BR>
Missile TOTAL<BR>
><BR>
>                                     -1.0              -1.0<BR>
Passive Decoy<BR>
>   -0.5           -0.5            -0.5              -0.5<BR>
Evasion<BR>
>   -0.5<BR>
Active Area Radar Jammer<BR>
>                                     +1.5<BR>
HEPlaR, 21+ G<BR>
>   +1.0                            +1.0             +1.0<BR>
Sensor, single hex scan<BR>
>    -1.5          -1.5             -1.5              -1.5              Fire<BR>
Control Lock<BR>
>   -10.0         -10.0           -10.0             -10.0            Range,<BR>
30,000 km<BR>
>    -1.0          -1.0              -2.0               -2.0<BR>
Automatic Lock<BR>
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
>   -14.0         -15.5             -14.5           -16.5           Missile<BR>
& Modifiers TOTAL<BR>
>    14.0          15.5              14.5            16.5           Sensor<BR>
needed for auto FCL<BR>
><BR>
> Notes:<BR>
> (1)  LIDAR:  The rules seem to be unclear on it, but I didn't think the<BR>
Passive Decoy would<BR>
> apply for LIDAR.  Likewise I didn't think the modifier for concentrating<BR>
the sensor in a single<BR>
> hex would apply as well, since it is not a scanner.<BR>
> (2)  Modifier for single hex scan:  I wasn't sure if this would apply for<BR>
a lock, but I assumed it<BR>
> would.<BR>
> (3)  RADAR area jammer:  I assumed their would be fighters in the area<BR>
jamming the target.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I believe that for the jamming to be effective the jammer should be the same<BR>
rating as the target AEMS, and I dont think a fighter can have as big an<BR>
AEMS as a ship can.<BR>
<BR>
I also have the problem of a highly jinking target getting constant Stealth<BR>
bonuses. I'm not a radar expert, but my understanding is stealthing is<BR>
dependant on the angle versus the target radar, and jinking would make this<BR>
a very iffy proposition. Also, my memory is telling me that AEMS systems get<BR>
a smaller 'fire control lock' modifier, but I cant find my copy of the DSR<BR>
to check.<BR>
<BR>
I also have problems with both extreme masking and a 20+ gee HEPLAR rocket,<BR>
and passive decoys and the same 20 gee HEPLAR rocket, and with passive<BR>
decoys and 20 gee evasion. I just dont believe you could sustain that sort<BR>
of signal out of a 1500 cc bundle - especially since the object you are<BR>
masking is jinking at 20+ gees.<BR>
<BR>
Banning either of these combinations takes the neccessary PEMS down to 13.5,<BR>
or even 13, which is easily doable.<BR>
<BR>
As a general point, I'd also be prepared to wear 'high chance for skilled<BR>
operator' - we are dealing with a space navy, rather than a collection of<BR>
malcontents and ne'er do wells on a merchant ship.<BR>
<BR>
> Comments:<BR>
> The missile has two long-range det-laser payloads.  The total inclusive<BR>
package costs a<BR>
> whopping 36 MCr ( 2 * 12 MCr for the payload and 12 MCr for the missile<BR>
itself).  It has a<BR>
> G-rating of 38 (realistic thrust of 26 Gs) and an endurance of 30 minutes.<BR>
It has a 13.0 PEMS.<BR>
><BR>
> I tried to make the missile as stealthy as possible, since if you can't<BR>
see it you can't hit it.<BR>
> LIDAR is the obvious choice for acquiring target acquisition.  Even at the<BR>
rating of 15.5 it is<BR>
> still waaaaaaay cheap--only 62 MCr and 50 m^3 at TL 15.  I tried to put in<BR>
a LIDAR decoy, but<BR>
> I couldn't fit it in the missile.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
What about the interaction of LIDARs and sand ?<BR>
<BR>
> If the attack were to come from the sunward direction then sensitivity is<BR>
reduced by 0.5.  The<BR>
> LIDAR required sensitivity is increased to 16.0 which is off the chart.  I<BR>
am not sure if this is<BR>
> because it is technologically impossible or if the chart just wasn't large<BR>
enough.  If the former<BR>
> then a PEMS would be needed and at 15.0 it would be amazing expensive<BR>
(25000 MCr).<BR>
<BR>
This is great stuff. We are stress-testing FFS2 and the DSR to the limit.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:30:22 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and  Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> If the attack were to come from the sunward direction then sensitivity is reduced by 0.5.  The<BR>
> LIDAR required sensitivity is increased to 16.0 which is off the chart.  I am not sure if this is<BR>
> because it is technologically impossible or if the chart just wasn't large enough.  If the former<BR>
> then a PEMS would be needed and at 15.0 it would be amazing expensive (25000 MCr).<BR>
<BR>
For a major fleet asset (such as a _Montana_ class battleship), an extra<BR>
GCr 25 isn't all that much, when compared to the overall unit cost of<BR>
just over GCr 746 per _Montana_.  The improved sensor array will help<BR>
such a ship find the enemy first, which enhances combat capability (both<BR>
offensively and defensively).  Indeed (checks notes), the _Montana_<BR>
class does mount a 15.0 PEMS, along with eight 15.5 LIDARs.  Note that<BR>
the LIDARs could receive a +1.5 once the PEMS "hands-off" the bogey to<BR>
the LIDAR (as per DSR).<BR>
<BR>
Besides, we at AuricTech Shipyards view the term "amazingly expensive"<BR>
as our mission statement (see my sig file for details).  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
For newcomers to the list, Bruce Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules can<BR>
bew found at:<BR>
<BR>
http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/sensor.rules.html<BR>
<BR>
I highly recommend them.  In fact, I highly recommend the entire<BR>
"Missouri Archive" site, which hosts the DSR:<BR>
<BR>
http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:45:35 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Missile Electronic Warfare<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> I also have problems with both extreme masking and a 20+ gee HEPLAR rocket,<BR>
> and passive decoys and the same 20 gee HEPLAR rocket, and with passive<BR>
> decoys and 20 gee evasion. I just dont believe you could sustain that sort<BR>
> of signal out of a 1500 cc bundle - especially since the object you are<BR>
> masking is jinking at 20+ gees.<BR>
<BR>
How exactly _does_ one mask a 20-G blowtorch?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:47:19 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
>  >The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!  Now,<BR>
>  >my intent was to have the whole group throw in a couple of points if<BR>
>  >the scout didn't want to spend it all.  However, I thought, for flavor<BR>
>  >as well as point reduction, that applying some "disadvantages" or<BR>
>  >"limitations" to the ship might be interesting.<BR>
><BR>
>The point of the GURPS point system is to provide balance within the game. A<BR>
>100 point character should have roughly the same importance as any other 100<BR>
>point character. The Ship Patron is an attempt to simulate acquiring a ship<BR>
>through the character generation process. A character spends a number of<BR>
>points to get a ship, but then the ship is his to use. I might even be able<BR>
>to see a few characters teaming up to purchase a ship with character points.<BR>
>However, if you know that the player characters are going to need the ship<BR>
>for the campaign, they should just get it with no points spent. They are not<BR>
>getting an advantage over the other players' characters.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It should be noted that even if everyone pays for a ship (so balance doesn't<BR>
come into it), buying a ship also represents a decisions by the players that<BR>
having that ship is the best way for them to deal with the problems they may<BR>
face.  However, I mostly agree that a GM can, if he desires, provide a<BR>
ship required for the campaign free of charge (or he can require players<BR>
to buy it, it is sort of bookkeeping issue since he gave out the<BR>
starting points in the first place :-).<BR>
<BR>
An advantage of giving it out is that it is simple (and if you use "standard"<BR>
starting point totals, it provides a few more points for players to use for<BR>
other things).  And advantage of buying it is that they can spend a more or<BR>
less on ship options if they want....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:53:27 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 11:04 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> 1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
>    calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
> 2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
> 3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
> 4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
<BR>
Re: #3<BR>
<BR>
I think you either mean:<BR>
<BR>
Twikki ("Beegley Beegley... [pithy (?) comment]... Buck!") from Buck Rogers;<BR>
<BR>
or Kryten ("Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg-heeeed!") from Red Dwarf....<BR>
<BR>
Either of which should prove suitably irritating to the crew <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:02:36 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: No messages on TML or Travpol for 48 hours!<BR>
<BR>
No messages on TML or Travpol for 48 hours.<BR>
<BR>
Is it me or the groups.<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:24:26 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E V1.0.2 Released<BR>
<BR>
Moin Stuart Ferris,<BR>
<BR>
> http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
<BR>
  this URI is illegal - please read rfc1738C, rfc1808 and <BR>
	  http://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/uri.<BR>
<BR>
  That broken browsers able to download them, is a fault of those<BR>
  browsers, and not a feature!<BR>
<BR>
  The Ampersand is the SGML entity quotation character. So the URI<BR>
  should be<BR>
	  http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&amp;_EARTH.htm<BR>
  or better<BR>
	  http://www.downport.com/wbd/heaven_and_earth.html<BR>
<BR>
  The last form is prefered as :<BR>
<BR>
  - the filepath part or a http URI is case sensitive.<BR>
  - the & means 'start in background' on a unix command line.<BR>
  - the extension for HTML should be '.html' and not '.htm' witch<BR>
    is a fault of Windoof/FrontPage.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:09:50 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 11:04 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
> <BR>
> > 1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
> >    calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
> > 2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
> > 3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
> > 4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
> <BR>
> Re: #3<BR>
> <BR>
> I think you either mean:<BR>
> <BR>
> Twikki ("Beegley Beegley... [pithy (?) comment]... Buck!") from Buck Rogers;<BR>
> <BR>
> or Kryten ("Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg-heeeed!") from Red Dwarf....<BR>
> <BR>
> Either of which should prove suitably irritating to the crew <g><BR>
<BR>
Nobody has yet mentioned the most annoying computer personality of all:<BR>
<BR>
Eddie (a product of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this may have been an attempt to avoid summoning Eddie, much<BR>
as one shouldn't say "Hastur, Hastur, Hast-<BR>
<BR>
lkhdfjoijlfja;l3-84-059=  CARRIER LOST<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:40:07 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Deckplans?  Tools?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Peter Scarrott <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
To: Trav TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 6:10:pm<BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Deckplans? Tools?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Black ICE replied<BR>
> >As a player, I've always figured that, if I need to see deckplans,<BR>
> >things have gone horribly wrong.  Therefore, I have never had much<BR>
> >interest in deckplans or deckplan-creating software.  However, I suspect<BR>
> >that Campaign Cartographer (someone else will have to give you the URL)<BR>
> >will meet your needs.  IIRC, it's not hideously expensive (I think it's<BR>
> >in the $50-$60 USD range, but I'm not sure), and it should support both<BR>
> >square-grid and hex-grid maps.<BR>
><BR>
> I use it a lot for my fantasy campaign maps and have had a couple of<BR>
> attempts to design deckplans using it, very, very easy to use and more<BR>
than<BR>
> powerful enough.  Only downside is a lack of icons for Sci-Fi ships,<BR>
however<BR>
> you can design your own easily enough.  The only reason I don't use it<BR>
more<BR>
> often is that I have most of the deckplans I need from canon sources and<BR>
the<BR>
> web.  Though my plans for TNE Clipper and  plans are still on hold (2 yrs<BR>
> late now).  :-(<BR>
><BR>
> It does support Square and hex grids, fully scaleable too.<BR>
> URL http://www.profantasy.com/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I thought that I saw on the Profantasy site, that it has both Traveller<BR>
deckplan icons and Traveller deckplans (both created by TML listmembers?)<BR>
for free downloading to licensed users on their site?  I thought I saw them,<BR>
perhaps I am wrong?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:39:45 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Returning to the TML<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
I've been away from the TML for a little over a year now due to professional<BR>
committments.  I was wondering if any of the folks I used to correspond with<BR>
are still out there.  Some individuals in particular were<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry<BR>
Leroy Guatney<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
Bruce Alan Macintosh<BR>
Michael Koehne<BR>
Harold Hale<BR>
Merrick Burkhardt<BR>
Leonard Erickson<BR>
Eris Reddoch<BR>
<BR>
Look forward to hearing from any and all and I apologize if this consumed<BR>
more of anyone's bandwidth than it should have.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2588<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:43:45 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:43:09 2000<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA49328;<BR>
	Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:42:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:42:06 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA49298<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:42:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:42:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006120042.UAA49298@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2588<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2589</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/12/00 1:53:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Monday, June 12 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2589<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
re: [www] 11 Jun 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Technology Failure  List<BR>
Re: Planet X?<BR>
Re: Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and  Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
Re: Planet X?<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender (long)<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Duck Dogers<BR>
re: Returning to the TML<BR>
Re: AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender (long)<BR>
Re: Electronic warfare and missiles<BR>
Re: Electronic warfare and missiles<BR>
Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (was re: Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:56:57 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hello all,<BR>
> <BR>
> I've been away from the TML for a little over a year now due to professional<BR>
> committments.  I was wondering if any of the folks I used to correspond with<BR>
> are still out there.  Some individuals in particular were<BR>
> <BR>
> Doug Berry<BR>
> Leroy Guatney<BR>
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
> Bruce Alan Macintosh<BR>
> Michael Koehne<BR>
> Harold Hale<BR>
> Merrick Burkhardt<BR>
> Leonard Erickson<BR>
> Eris Reddoch<BR>
<BR>
Welcome back!<BR>
<BR>
Of the folks on your list, the following have posted within the past 48<BR>
hours:<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
Bruce Alan Macintosh<BR>
Michael Koehne<BR>
Leonard Erickson<BR>
Eris Reddoch<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
Right now, we're largely in-between flame wars....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:52:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: [www] 11 Jun 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
At 20:42 -0400 11/6/00,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:<BR>
> - Because of the author's legal concerns, having nothing to do<BR>
>   directly with Freelance Traveller, we have had to temporarily<BR>
>   withdraw 101 Starships and the Shipyard designs reprinted<BR>
>   therefrom. We have received assurances that as soon as the<BR>
>   legal concerns have been dealt with appropriately, we will<BR>
>   receive a new edition of 101 Starships for distribution.<BR>
>   Freelance Traveller apologizes for this situation.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, BITS UK Limited (who publish 101 Starships) have withdrawn <BR>
the supplement from their website. As soon as the new version is <BR>
available with the revised legal disclaimer, the file will become <BR>
available again.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS webmaster)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at<BR>
>Freelance Traveller.  Please write to<BR>
>freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all of them, as we are<BR>
>in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may be<BR>
>temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good<BR>
>will of Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our<BR>
>existence, and to write for us, making our existence possible.<BR>
><BR>
>Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR>
><BR>
>Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation<BR>
>to The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to<BR>
>Executive Network Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com)<BR>
>for hosting services. Without organizations willing to cooperate<BR>
>with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing needs, we would be unable<BR>
>to bring you the articles and other resources that have made<BR>
>Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on the<BR>
>'net.<BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS, CORE and their respective logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:59:14 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Technology Failure  List<BR>
<BR>
Will whomever posted the list of technology failures please email it <BR>
to me off list.  It was a stitch!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:13:07 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet X?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 8:51:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Planet X?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > So, what's up with "Planet X" of the Core subsector?  I'm basing<BR>
> > my Milieu 0 Campaign in that subsector and it has shown up a<BR>
> > couple of times.  Additionally, it doesn't show up in other eras or<BR>
> > other map sources I've looked at.  I'm using Galactitician 2.4.<BR>
> <BR>
> Other than Terra (whose supplies are "alarmingly low"), Planet X is the<BR>
> only known remaining source of Alludium Phosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Exactly!  And we better get Dodgers out there before that pesky Martian!!!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:19:18 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Missile Electronic Warfare (was Spacecraft Missile Questions and  Missiles & Fighters)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip description of missile and sensor interaction>><BR>
> <BR>
> Comments:<BR>
> The missile has two long-range det-laser payloads.<BR>
<BR>
Can a missile deploy two det-laser warheads?  One runs the risk of<BR>
fratricide (one warhead's detonation destroying the second warhead<BR>
before it can detonate).<BR>
<BR>
  The total inclusive package costs a<BR>
> whopping 36 MCr ( 2 * 12 MCr for the payload and 12 MCr for the missile itself).  It has a<BR>
> G-rating of 38 (realistic thrust of 26 Gs) and an endurance of 30 minutes. It has a 13.0 PEMS.<BR>
<BR>
All right.  You have a 7 dton missile (which therefore won't fit in<BR>
standard Imperial missile launchers), costing MCr 36 per shot.  There is<BR>
one burning question:<BR>
<BR>
How much damage will this thing do, assuming that it hits the target?<BR>
<BR>
If this missile can't manage a one-shot mission kill (or better) on a<BR>
warship the size of a _Midu Agashaam_ (a 3000 dton destroyer), against<BR>
PD fire, nuclear damper turrets (AuricTech designs mounting damper<BR>
turrets normally use a range of 50 kkm), and sand, it's probably not<BR>
cost-effective.<BR>
<BR>
To use a modern analogy, it would be cost-ineffective to develop a<BR>
doctrine involving the routine use of $35,000 TOW missiles against<BR>
$50,000 HMMWVs, or even $200,000 BTR-80 APCs.  Sure, the missile is<BR>
cheaper than the target, but there are even more cost-effective ways to<BR>
kill such targets.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, we reach the fundamental question: what is this missile's role?  A<BR>
missile intended for use by fighters, for instance, will have design<BR>
parameters different from one intended for use by capital ships.  Can<BR>
this missile fill its intended role more efficiently than, say, a laser<BR>
or PAW bay of the same volume as the missile launcher?  Don't forget to<BR>
include the logistical challenge of providing reloads in the analysis.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:26:01 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet X?<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
> > > James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > So, what's up with "Planet X" of the Core subsector?  I'm basing<BR>
> > > my Milieu 0 Campaign in that subsector and it has shown up a<BR>
> > > couple of times.  Additionally, it doesn't show up in other eras or<BR>
> > > other map sources I've looked at.  I'm using Galactitician 2.4.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Other than Terra (whose supplies are "alarmingly low"), Planet X is the<BR>
> > only known remaining source of Alludium Phosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Exactly!  And we better get Dodgers out there before that pesky Martian!!!<BR>
<BR>
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/245.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:57:27 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On 06/10/00 at 07:29 AM,  Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
>> Playing online also gives you a chance to play with people from all<BR>
>> over the world, I'm in games with people from Germany, Austria (or<BR>
>> Spain depending on how you look at it), England, Canada, Australia,<BR>
>> and all over the US, and their diverse backgrounds and points of<BR>
>> view bring qualities to the games that would be hard to match in a<BR>
>> FTF.<BR>
<BR>
>Hey!  What am I?  Chopped liver?  Add Scotland to that list. <g><BR>
<BR>
I *knew* I should have written United Kingdom instead of England! <g><BR>
<BR>
>Ah, the dangers of enumeration...<BR>
<BR>
True, true! <g><BR>
<BR>
>Now if you'll excuse my I'll go crawl back under my rock.<BR>
<BR>
>But before I go, I'd love to get involved in a GRIP:Traveller. <BR>
>Unfortunately, I'll have to wait on a Linux version :(<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like a job for Java! <g>  Okay, I know the speed problem with write once run anywhere, but Java also has the opportuntiy to be a write once and *complie* anywhere language. Once complied into native machine code java programs are reputedly as fast a C based programs.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:06:05 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On 06/10/00 at 08:39 AM,  "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hunter is running a game on Friday nites at 10 PM EST.  The player<BR>
>software is free and you can come and see if you like it.  I played in<BR>
>the last session and it was fun.  <BR>
<BR>
Maybe I'll drop by next Friday and, at least, lurk. <g><BR>
<BR>
>I have ordered the game but it hasn't shipped yet, so we can't host<BR>
>Traveller games per se.  The system is more or less completely<BR>
>customizable from what I understand so you could run a game with<BR>
>the current incarnation of the GM software.  I don't have that yet,<BR>
>am waiting for the Traveller version.  (BTW when is it shipping<BR>
>Hunter?)  I know it is close to shipping.  I really hope to get a<BR>
>some games going with the members here.<BR>
<BR>
I have a couple of questions about the versions.  <BR>
<BR>
If I order the generic version of the gamemaster module that is<BR>
available now, I could customize it to run Traveller games, as well<BR>
as games using other systems, right?  <BR>
<BR>
What the Traveller version buys me is (1) having the customization<BR>
for CT already done, (2) the supplementary software for character<BR>
and world generation, and (3) a couple of adventures, correct?  And I<BR>
would still be able to run non-Traveller with this version?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:14:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Ship's computer has an AS (Artificial Stupidity :-) user interface<BR>
>>designed by a fan of primitive science fiction. Pick any of the<BR>
>>following "personalities":<BR>
>><BR>
>>4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
><BR>
> No problem, you could always just teach it a little phenomenology!<BR>
<BR>
"I think, therefore I must explode"?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:11:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
<BR>
At 08:39 PM 6/11/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Doug Berry<BR>
<BR>
Present, SIR!<BR>
<BR>
>Leroy Guatney<BR>
<BR>
Long gone.  :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:16:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> 1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
>>    calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
>> 2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
>> 3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
>> 4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
><BR>
> Re: #3<BR>
><BR>
> I think you either mean:<BR>
><BR>
> Twikki ("Beegley Beegley... [pithy (?) comment]... Buck!") from Buck Rogers;<BR>
><BR>
> or Kryten ("Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg-heeeed!") from Red Dwarf....<BR>
<BR>
No, the last season or so, they had Buck and company out exploring, and<BR>
had a *very* annoying robot on the ship, and I'm pretty sure his name<BR>
was Kryten. I've *never* seen Red Dwarf, so that's out as a source.<BR>
<BR>
The Kryten on Buck Rogers was the snotty, superior type. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:56:02 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender (long)<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> _Kingfish_ class ships are named for various sports teams.*<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> *The name ship is named for the Baton Rouge Kingfish, an East Coast<BR>
> Hockey League franchise.<BR>
<BR>
As an aside:  I find it interesting that, of the eight teams in the<BR>
College World Series, I live in one team's home city (Baton Rouge/LSU). <BR>
On my trip to BayCon, I visited a second team's home city (San<BR>
Jose/SJS), and twice rode through a third team's home city<BR>
(Lafayette/ULL).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this _does_ mean that one of the early ships of the<BR>
_Kingfish_ class will be named _Ragin' Cajuns_.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:11:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> No problem, you could always just teach it a little phenomenology!<BR>
><BR>
>"I think, therefore I must explode"?<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's not quite how it happened. Despite the fact that Bomb was<BR>
pretty bright, its response to his little philosophy discussion was to...<BR>
Ach! Oh, never mind. I don't want to get into it, and I'm not sure it's<BR>
really on topic. Sort of continued after the ObTrav.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Dark Star is required viewing for anyone with a desire to play an<BR>
IISS field agent.<BR>
<BR>
[Potential Spoiler: Avert eyes]<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
.<BR>
But no, when I said you could always teach it a little phenomenology I was<BR>
merely parroting the Captain's line to Doolittle ("teach it... a little...<BR>
phenomenology"). For anyone who is not familiar with the term, phenomenology<BR>
is best described as a branch of philosophy concerned with self-awareness<BR>
and consciousness. That joke gets *much* funnier when you realize how long<BR>
it can take to teach someone a little phenomenology and the timeframe<BR>
Doolittle had to work in. The very fact that Dan O'Bannon actually knew how<BR>
to use the term correctly and proceeded to write a fairly good "Socratic<BR>
dialogue" on the subject indicates that he's a vastly underrated<BR>
script-writer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:16:23 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11-06-00 6:43:45 PM CST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Other than Terra (whose supplies are "alarmingly low"), Planet X is the<BR>
>  only known remaining source of Alludium Phosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom.<BR>
<BR>
"Uuuuuu! That makes me so angry." I think you'll find the correct spelling is <BR>
"Eludium"<BR>
<BR>
Marvin is my favorite WB character :  )<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:33:14 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: re: Returning to the TML<BR>
<BR>
"Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com> asks:<BR>
<BR>
>Hello all,<BR>
><BR>
>I've been away from the TML for a little over a year now due to professional<BR>
>committments.  I was wondering if any of the folks I used to correspond with<BR>
>are still out there.  Some individuals in particular were<BR>
><BR>
>Doug Berry<BR>
>Leroy Guatney<BR>
>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
>Bruce Alan Macintosh<BR>
>Michael Koehne<BR>
>Harold Hale<BR>
>Merrick Burkhardt<BR>
>Leonard Erickson<BR>
>Eris Reddoch<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 While I haven't counted noses recently, all but Harold (who hangs out on the <BR>
TNE list) and Leroy (undoubtably holding court  _somewhere_, but not here) <BR>
are still about.<BR>
<BR>
>Look forward to hearing from any and all and I apologize if this consumed<BR>
>more of anyone's bandwidth than it should have.<BR>
<BR>
 YOUR post isn't a problem. The bandwidth waste will come from those you've <BR>
put in close proximity to The Leroy...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
(who has the dubious honor of being the first to feel The Leroy's Most Absurd <BR>
Wrath online, years before he set foot here...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:38:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce Raider/Tender (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:56 PM 6/11/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>As an aside:  I find it interesting that, of the eight teams in the<BR>
>College World Series, I live in one team's home city (Baton Rouge/LSU). <BR>
>On my trip to BayCon, I visited a second team's home city (San<BR>
>Jose/SJS), and twice rode through a third team's home city<BR>
>(Lafayette/ULL).<BR>
<BR>
If we had ahd the time, we would have been happy to take you to the Shark<BR>
Tank.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, this _does_ mean that one of the early ships of the<BR>
>_Kingfish_ class will be named _Ragin' Cajuns_.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Just as long as you don't name one after the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:53:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Electronic warfare and missiles<BR>
<BR>
>>The FIM needs a sensor good enough to see the target when<BR>
>> its launched, but it gets the previously-detetected bonus to make up<BR>
>> for the range difference.<BR>
>And I bet *that* is why you need a target lock before launching a<BR>
>missile.<BR>
Actually, the DSR makes a distinction between detection and target lock<BR>
(the latter is harder and is only checked for at the instant you fire.) You<BR>
only<BR>
need "detection" to get the previously-detected/handoff bonus for your FIM,<BR>
not a lock. "Detection" is equivalent to "there's a ship at this angular<BR>
position and<BR>
roughly this range, to within +-100 km or so". "Lock" is a position error<BR>
smaller than<BR>
the target size in angle, and maybe 0.01% in range.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:00:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Electronic warfare and missiles<BR>
<BR>
>I also have problems with both extreme masking and a 20+ gee HEPLAR rocket,<BR>
>and passive decoys and the same 20 gee HEPLAR rocket, and with passive<BR>
>decoys and 20 gee evasion. I just dont believe you could sustain that sort<BR>
>of signal out of a 1500 cc bundle - especially since the object you are<BR>
>masking is jinking at 20+ gees.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I have a problem with this too, and I wrote the bloody rules.<BR>
If I had to do it all over again, the HEPLAR signature would just completely<BR>
replace the ship/missile's signature while it's on. There's really nothing you<BR>
can do to hide a HEPLAR plume. The problem is to do that I'd need to<BR>
calculate more accurate values for what HEPLAR's emission and spectrum and<BR>
angular size of the plume is, which I'm mildly loath to do...and worry about<BR>
things<BR>
like the fact that most of a HEPLAR plume probably emits in the far-UV or<BR>
x-ray, so the IR signature calculations aren't quite right...<BR>
<BR>
Still, what the cunning Mr. Snyder failed to notice was that at TL15 you can<BR>
build quite nice thruster-plate missiles, especially if they're 1-2 dTons.<BR>
 Very expensive, but quite nice, and very very hard to passively detect. Not<BR>
sure<BR>
what to do about this. Maybe adjust the properties of active sensors a little.<BR>
Or remove the "long range" det-laser warheads (which I never liked much, and<BR>
are kind of a weird TNE thing - no TNE design really ever used them, and you<BR>
have<BR>
to pretend a grav focus thingy fits in the warhead package and operates on the<BR>
timescale of the nuclear explosion, which doesn't fit with the "soliton" grav<BR>
focus<BR>
model.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:24:32 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
on 6/11/00 3:18 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> A what's new button would help.  I use a simple perl scripts on my own sites<BR>
>> that lets visitors check for changed files so they don't have to search the<BR>
>> whole site.<BR>
> <BR>
> Link, not button, second one down in the black stripe, below the<BR>
> sun.  "What's New".<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, I found it on Freelance.  I was looking at downport.  Who's your<BR>
provider, BTW.  I noticed the add on Freelance.  Hate the darn things.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:37:58 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
All of the discussion on Point Defense seems to assume that incoming rounds<BR>
will remain as 'observable' as they are today.  As PD becomes more effective,<BR>
there will be a strong  incentive to make the incoming rounds less<BR>
observable.  Shell casings could be made of composite materials, and designed<BR>
to absorb/diffuse radar.<BR>
<BR>
Any thoughts on how this might affect the effectiveness of PD?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:13:45 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jun 00, at 20:39, Dan Lane wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
> I've been away from the TML for a little over a year now due to professional<BR>
> committments.  I was wondering if any of the folks I used to correspond with<BR>
> are still out there.  Some individuals in particular were<BR>
<BR>
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
<BR>
Present and accounted for<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:01:18 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote:<BR>
> Once complied into native machine code java programs are reputedly as fast a<BR>
> C based programs.<BR>
<BR>
Not if the C programmer knows his/her job well enough...    *g*<BR>
<BR>
Generic code cannot take full advantage of machine specific functions<BR>
(although good compilers can fix this problem to a degree).<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:30:43 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (was re: Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
>Ian Whitchurch<BR>
>Subject: Re: PD and Arty (was re: Graound Combat)<BR>
...<BR>
>>   I think that a nice little infantry company support might be an MD<BR>
>> auto-mortar grav-AFV, with the fusion plant output running either a<BR>
>> PD or an AT laser when it's sited for fire missions. Even knocking<BR>
...<BR>
>> helpless targets that show up? Use the same power and run one only?<BR>
><BR>
>I'd be using a convention power plant, backed up with a 5 minute duration<BR>
>battery pack. Fusion plants have a big minimum size under FFS2 up to about<BR>
>TL13, and big fusion plants are very expensive.<BR>
<BR>
  "Only" 1m^3 and KCr 200 in Striker for decent efficiency - smaller<BR>
is do-able (B:8), but Bigger Is Better :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:51:11 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ship's computer has an AS (Artificial Stupidity :-) user interface<BR>
>designed by a fan of primitive science fiction. Pick any of the<BR>
>following "personalities":<BR>
><BR>
>1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
>   calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
>2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
>3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
>4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
><BR>
>I'm sure you can think of other "annoying computers" from fiction.<BR>
<BR>
Give them the nicest computer of all, HAL:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	"I'm sorry, I can't do that Dave."<BR>
<BR>
Just pitching your voice correctly should induce enough paranoia,<BR>
even if HAL hasn't got some secret to hide from the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2589<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (rly-zd02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.226]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:53:46 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:53:26 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id EAA67468;<BR>
	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:52:17 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:52:07 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id EAA67428<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:52:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:52:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006120852.EAA67428@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2589<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2590</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/12/00 9:08:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Monday, June 12 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2590<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Planet X?<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
Pocket Empires<BR>
Re: Starship quirks<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Origins Award Balloting<BR>
[OT] Kryten Quotes (was RE: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
Awards<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 05:36:54 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/11/00 11:57:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Depends on <BR>
>  1) How sadistic you are<BR>
>  2) How machositic they are<BR>
>  3) How they die<BR>
>  <BR>
>  ;><BR>
>  <BR>
>  <BR>
>  In general, small flavor-adding quirks are the best ones. Quirks that<BR>
>  get your characters killed are not funny.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  * Faulty kitchen equipment sometimes malfunctions, with less-than-tasty<BR>
>  results.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  * Lights switch off every now and then.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  * The microphone on the bridge sometimes switches on by itself,<BR>
>  broadcasting the dialogue on the bridge to the entire ship.<BR>
<BR>
That can be rather funny.........(it happened one time, well more than once, <BR>
but one clerk was talking to her boyfriend on the phone and the mic happened <BR>
to be on even though the switch wasn't being held. Everybody outside got to <BR>
hear a rather steamy sex conversation......)<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:19:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> All of the discussion on Point Defense seems to assume that incoming rounds<BR>
> will remain as 'observable' as they are today.  As PD becomes more effective,<BR>
> there will be a strong  incentive to make the incoming rounds less<BR>
> observable.  Shell casings could be made of composite materials, and designed<BR>
> to absorb/diffuse radar.<BR>
><BR>
> Any thoughts on how this might affect the effectiveness of PD?<BR>
<BR>
Not as much as you might think. There are pretty strict limits on what<BR>
you can *do* to the rounds without adversely affecting their<BR>
performance. Changing shape is pretty much out of the question.<BR>
Composites may compromise the rounds function, or cost too much. And<BR>
they aren't a lot of help against frequency agile radar combined with<BR>
lidar. And if there's any sort of sensors with "look down" capability<BR>
the rounds are apt to show up as a moving "black" spot on the disply. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:10:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> Man you have him portrayed far too crudely.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Strephon (petting a cat in his lap, speaking in a low voice): "We have a<BR>
> problem. These people, these ruffians, they have no respect for their<BR>
> Emperor. They need to be taught respect, to made an example for others.<BR>
> Do you understand me, consigl^h^h^h^h seneschal?"<BR>
> <BR>
> Senechal: "Certainly godfa^h^h^h^hEmperor. I'll have some of our people<BR>
> take care of it immediately."<BR>
> <BR>
> Strephon: "Good..now go, I wish to be alone with my thoughts..."<BR>
> <BR>
...and in the coluimn labeled "Good Things" is firmly place the fact<BR>
that I am a two-handed mail reader...<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:44:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
You forgot them leaving a K'Kree head on the offending sentients <BR>
pillow!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:58:55 +0100<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
Jussi_Kenkkila wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> Stinging nettles.<BR>
<BR>
>Does anyone know if this is the plant known in finnis as "nokkonen"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes, according to:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/9839/Forest/FD.htm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:55:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
IMTU The players all know something is up when the ships microwave oven<BR>
fails. They run screaming when the fluoro light on the flight deck begins to<BR>
flicker.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:01:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Planet X?<BR>
<BR>
>James Pearson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> So, what's up with "Planet X" of the Core subsector?  I'm basing<BR>
>> my Milieu 0 Campaign in that subsector and it has shown up a<BR>
>> couple of times.  Additionally, it doesn't show up in other eras or<BR>
>> other map sources I've looked at.  I'm using Galactitician 2.4.<BR>
<BR>
>Other than Terra (whose supplies are "alarmingly low"), Planet X is the<BR>
>only known remaining source of Alludium Phosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom.<BR>
<BR>
>- -- <BR>
>AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
>Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
Heh, is that thing still out there? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Way back in the heyday of T4, Planet X was the home of X-TEK Industries.<BR>
What had happened is that I produced a 'corrected' Core sector for Gal2.4.<BR>
It included such things as world updates and where Naval ans Scout bases<BR>
should be, based on  Year 1105 data.  Planet X was included on the map.  <BR>
<BR>
Originaly Planet X was an old Sylean Naval Resuply center, a deep space<BR>
station that linked the Zimiin and Sylean mains.  When Commander X was<BR>
elevated to the rank of Count for his work in the Chanestin Wars and<BR>
Piracy Supresions, he chose the old deep space naval facility for his<BR>
fief.  Over the course of 5 years the old station was refurbished and<BR>
became a huge space station and corporate facility.  It was at first known<BR>
as Naval Deep Space Supply Cache Number Ten, but the Commander then<BR>
changed it to "Planet X".  The name coming from some obscure ancient<BR>
solomani text.<BR>
<BR>
Planet X would have its ups and downs and eventualy decide to jump to the<BR>
more lucrative markets forming in the Deneb sector, which was already an<BR>
industrial powerhouse by the time of the Consolidation Campains.  It would<BR>
be destroyed in a major battle during the civil war.  This was a<BR>
tremendous blow to X-TEK.  Fortuneately the company had diversified and<BR>
decentralized enough by then to be able to recoup their losses.  Legend<BR>
says however that Planet X was not destroyed, but rather misjumped.<BR>
Conspiracy theorists are quick to point out that the debris field had<BR>
insufficient mass to even come close to what the station was.<BR>
<BR>
Planet X was about 20 million tons displacement and built into a spherical<BR>
hull.  It incorporated an entire Class-A Starport including docks, trade<BR>
handling, shipyards and factories.  It was home to thousands of X-TEK<BR>
employees and thousands more of visitors and merchants.<BR>
<BR>
Today (1120 GT-Timeline)  X-TEK still produces the Planet-X Class of<BR>
station for use as a naval production facility.  At least one such station<BR>
can be found in any system within the Domain of Deneb where a major Naval<BR>
Base is present.  The exact number of stations in Depot systems is<BR>
classified but generaly accepted to be more than one.<BR>
<BR>
As is tradition, X-TEK still remains the sole producer of Eludium Phosdex,<BR>
the shaving cream atom, as well as the Rack-and-Pinion molecule used to<BR>
polish yo-yo's for all the Imperium's citizens.<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 05:10:33 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Yes they are. The player with the ship patron can say "You do<BR>
> >it my way on my ship or you can damned get out and walk."<BR>
> >[To paraphrase a ST ships captain PC I once played.]<BR>
<BR>
> I'm working on an assumption, which seemed to be clear in the original post:<BR>
> the cost was going to be divided between the members of the party. <BR>
<BR>
Yes it did. However it did not establish that the PC's were<BR>
the only ones on the ship. NPC crew or passengers may exist<BR>
on the ship. PC's who have taken the ship owner Advantage<BR>
have something that these people do not. Said cost should be<BR>
on their character sheets.<BR>
<BR>
> As I<BR>
> said, I can see the point of one player spending the points to get<BR>
> ownership. I can see the point of a part of the party playing. These are big<BR>
> advantages for the players.<BR>
<BR>
The crew of a ship is not necessarily all PC's. Even if they<BR>
all start out as PC's one of them becomes an NPC whenever<BR>
his player misses a session.<BR>
<BR>
> If the ship is needed for the campaign, and the cost would be divided<BR>
> between the players, then there is no reason to charge points for it since<BR>
> no character is getting an advantage over the other characters.<BR>
<BR>
What if two player characters are allies. Suppose that Susan<BR>
and Mike's charecters are newly married and that they are<BR>
almost always together. The GM says that both charecters have<BR>
to take each other as 100 point allies appearing on a 15-.<BR>
This costs 15 points (base of 5 x 3 for appears on a 15-).<BR>
Than Susan and Mike's charecters both get 10 points of<BR>
'Ship Owner'. Now both charecters are 110 point characters.<BR>
Now their Ally advantage costs 30 points (base of 10 x3).<BR>
Susan and Mike are now 15 points in the hole. They are now<BR>
really 125 point characters. (Some GM's might say that PC allies <BR>
don't have to be paid for. I disagree since PC's can become <BR>
NPC's when the other player doesn't show and you do have to pay <BR>
for NPC allies.)<BR>
<BR>
> Check this out, from James' original post: "Now, my intent was to have the<BR>
> whole group throw in a couple of points if the scout didn't want to spend it<BR>
> all." If you get everybody to throw something in the pot, everything's even,<BR>
> so there's no need to point balance. This is what I said.<BR>
<BR>
If the rest of the party throws in a few point and the<BR>
scout throws in more points than the Scout will own more<BR>
of the ship than the other players will and will be able<BR>
to outvote them in ships meetings. This is an advantage.<BR>
Advantages muct be paid for.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover I think that 100 point PC's ought to be balanced with <BR>
100 point NPC's. Once the PC's have the ship they are suddenly<BR>
115 point PC's because they have something (the ship) that<BR>
the NPC's do not.<BR>
<BR>
Personally I would probably tell the players to take their<BR>
100 point charecter sheets and add 15 points of the Ship Owner<BR>
disadvantage and balance it with a 15 point Secret Disadvantage,<BR>
(GT Comp I p 75). once the Pc's discovered who their 10 point<BR>
enemy was the disadvantage would no longer be secret and the<BR>
PC's would have to pay the 5 points.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:48:11 +0200<BR>
From: Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling <kgorling@physik.tu-berlin.de><BR>
Subject: Pocket Empires<BR>
<BR>
Has anybody experiences with a Pocket Empires game per E-Mail and<BR>
could give me a list of do's and do'nt's of mastering a Pocket<BR>
Empires game? Thanx.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
ICQ UIN 55009348<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 05:38:48 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship quirks<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
> >>However, if you know that the player characters are going to need the ship<BR>
> >>for the campaign, they should just get it with no points spent. They are not<BR>
> >>getting an advantage over the other players' characters.<BR>
<BR>
> >Yes they are. The player with the ship patron can say "You do<BR>
> >it my way on my ship or you can damned get out and walk."<BR>
> >[To paraphrase a ST ships captain PC I once played.] <BR>
> >This is a _major_ change in the power dynamics of the characters<BR>
> >and the players. If Fred's character can effectively throw Bob's <BR>
> >character out of the game whenever he wants by saying "Get off my <BR>
> >ship."<BR>
<BR>
> And that, of course, is a power one should not be able to buy for a player<BR>
> character. There are only two people who should have the power to remove a<BR>
> PC from a game: the GM and the player who plays that PC.<BR>
<BR>
Only the GM or the player should have the power to remove<BR>
a _player_ from a campaign. Most characters already have the <BR>
ability to remove other _charecters_ from the game although<BR>
their use of such power is usually called first degree murder.<BR>
If the social or economic relationship between two charecters<BR>
should give one the power to remove another character from<BR>
the campaign than I think his charecter should have this power.<BR>
<BR>
> >...(unless of course the other PC's all like Bobs character so much that<BR>
> >they would quit the ship if Bobs character is thrown off, but this will<BR>
> >still warp the campaign.) then Bob is likely to be nicer to Fred. <BR>
> <BR>
> No one in any player group I have either played in or GM'ed would let Fred<BR>
> get away with throwing Bob off the ship. The likeliest result would be all<BR>
> other PCs getting off and wishing Fred good riddance.<BR>
<BR>
What about role playing? What if Fred's charecter _should_<BR>
fire Bob's charecter for his insubordination and disrespect?<BR>
<BR>
Suppose that the coffee crop fails and coffee prices hit<BR>
150 credits a kilo. Bob's character, the ships Captain,<BR>
has the Miserly disadvantage so he refuses to buy any more<BR>
coffee for the galley. Fred's charecter has a Caffeine<BR>
Addiction so he goes to the Captain and says "I need some<BR>
coffee Captain." the Captain says "Buy it yourself, drink<BR>
this nice tea I bought, or quit." Fred's charecter has the <BR>
Bad Temper and Poor disadvantages (too much back alimony from <BR>
his three ex wives) and can't afford to buy coffee at Cr 150/kilo. <BR>
He says "Buy me some coffee _NOW_ dammit you @#$%^&*!" Bob's <BR>
charecter says "You're fired." If both charecters are in<BR>
the military Bob says "Master of Arms place this man under<BR>
arrest pending a general court martial."<BR>
<BR>
For this the other charecters would quit the ship? What was<BR>
Fred supposed to do (once he failed his Will roll) but<BR>
roleplay his Bad Temper? Was the Captain of a ship supposed<BR>
to take gross insubordination from a member of his crew<BR>
simply because Fred and Bob are friends? Good role players<BR>
ought to have their ships captain charecters fire other<BR>
charecters for this sort of thing (barring a Sense of Duty:<BR>
Crew).<BR>
<BR>
> >The worse of a role player Fred is and the less he separates his characters<BR>
> >actions from his own the nicer Bob is likely to be to him.<BR>
<BR>
> Which is exactly why no one I know would want to reward such behavior. 'Ship<BR>
> owner' may be a major advantage in your campaigns, and if that is the case,<BR>
> by all means use the 'Ship Patron' costs, but in other campaigns it would at<BR>
> most be a quirk.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. The better charecters are roleplayed the more they<BR>
will behave like real people. The crew of a ship are often<BR>
coworkers not a 'band of brothers'. As such they should frequently<BR>
act pettily towards each other just like real coworkers<BR>
often do. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:45:34 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
<BR>
This seems to have sparked some good banter.  The idea is to <BR>
have the players share the point cost if I decide to implement one.  <BR>
The ship is required for the campaign.  The players are all agents <BR>
for the AAB.  The scout ship is an advanced, deep exploration <BR>
ship, with some additional weapons, jump capabilities, and a lab.<BR>
<BR>
At any rate, the general consensus seems to be to NOT require an <BR>
expenditure of points for the ship since it is required for the <BR>
campaign and will not (usually anyhow) be used for their own <BR>
personal gain (like a Merchant ship which they might use to profit <BR>
from).<BR>
<BR>
Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has <BR>
"given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for <BR>
the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
<BR>
I do still plan on implementing Quirks into the ship - thanks to <BR>
everyone for their awesome suggestions in this realm as well!<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Jun 2000, at 5:10, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > >Yes they are. The player with the ship patron can say "You do<BR>
> > >it my way on my ship or you can damned get out and walk."<BR>
> > >[To paraphrase a ST ships captain PC I once played.]<BR>
> <BR>
> > I'm working on an assumption, which seemed to be clear in the<BR>
> > original post: the cost was going to be divided between the members<BR>
> > of the party. <BR>
> <BR>
> Yes it did. However it did not establish that the PC's were<BR>
> the only ones on the ship. NPC crew or passengers may exist<BR>
> on the ship. PC's who have taken the ship owner Advantage<BR>
> have something that these people do not. Said cost should be<BR>
> on their character sheets.<BR>
> <BR>
> > As I<BR>
> > said, I can see the point of one player spending the points to get<BR>
> > ownership. I can see the point of a part of the party playing. These<BR>
> > are big advantages for the players.<BR>
> <BR>
> The crew of a ship is not necessarily all PC's. Even if they<BR>
> all start out as PC's one of them becomes an NPC whenever<BR>
> his player misses a session.<BR>
> <BR>
> > If the ship is needed for the campaign, and the cost would be<BR>
> > divided between the players, then there is no reason to charge<BR>
> > points for it since no character is getting an advantage over the<BR>
> > other characters.<BR>
> <BR>
> What if two player characters are allies. Suppose that Susan<BR>
> and Mike's charecters are newly married and that they are<BR>
> almost always together. The GM says that both charecters have<BR>
> to take each other as 100 point allies appearing on a 15-.<BR>
> This costs 15 points (base of 5 x 3 for appears on a 15-).<BR>
> Than Susan and Mike's charecters both get 10 points of<BR>
> 'Ship Owner'. Now both charecters are 110 point characters.<BR>
> Now their Ally advantage costs 30 points (base of 10 x3).<BR>
> Susan and Mike are now 15 points in the hole. They are now<BR>
> really 125 point characters. (Some GM's might say that PC allies don't<BR>
> have to be paid for. I disagree since PC's can become NPC's when the<BR>
> other player doesn't show and you do have to pay for NPC allies.)<BR>
> <BR>
> > Check this out, from James' original post: "Now, my intent was to<BR>
> > have the whole group throw in a couple of points if the scout didn't<BR>
> > want to spend it all." If you get everybody to throw something in<BR>
> > the pot, everything's even, so there's no need to point balance.<BR>
> > This is what I said.<BR>
> <BR>
> If the rest of the party throws in a few point and the<BR>
> scout throws in more points than the Scout will own more<BR>
> of the ship than the other players will and will be able<BR>
> to outvote them in ships meetings. This is an advantage.<BR>
> Advantages muct be paid for.<BR>
> <BR>
> Moreover I think that 100 point PC's ought to be balanced with <BR>
> 100 point NPC's. Once the PC's have the ship they are suddenly<BR>
> 115 point PC's because they have something (the ship) that<BR>
> the NPC's do not.<BR>
> <BR>
> Personally I would probably tell the players to take their<BR>
> 100 point charecter sheets and add 15 points of the Ship Owner<BR>
> disadvantage and balance it with a 15 point Secret Disadvantage,<BR>
> (GT Comp I p 75). once the Pc's discovered who their 10 point<BR>
> enemy was the disadvantage would no longer be secret and the<BR>
> PC's would have to pay the 5 points.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:05:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
What about when the computerized litterbox spaces the ships cat?<BR>
or is that a sign of virus infection?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:52:31 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Moin James Pearson,<BR>
<BR>
> The catch is, that the cost for this "Ship Patron" is 61 points!<BR>
<BR>
  what about using age and 'wear value' as procentual modifiers ?<BR>
<BR>
  TNE has a wear value between 0-10. The higher the wear the more<BR>
  this part of equipment is worn out. As a rule of thumb most things<BR>
  have a wear value of age/10. So if the ship is 40 years old, some<BR>
  subsystems have a wear value of 4, and the price would be reduced<BR>
  by 40% to equal 37 points as a personaly owned ship.<BR>
<BR>
  Anytime major functions of the ships are used (jumpdrive, thusters,<BR>
  ...,-) the engineer has to roll 1d10 greater than the wear value<BR>
  to avoid a potencial breakdown of the subsystem. To avoid an<BR>
  actual breakdown is 'difficult: mechanic' by the character who<BR>
  did the last maintenance on the subsystem. If the subsystem is<BR>
  out of maintenance the potencial breakdown will automatical become<BR>
  an actual breakdown. Increased maintenance will reduce the chance<BR>
  of a potential breakdown. Spending twice the time, will reduce the<BR>
  chance by 2, spending three times the amount will reduce it by 3.<BR>
  If a subsystem has had 10 actual breakdowns, increase the wear value<BR>
  by one. Major rebuilds on a starport may reduce the wear value.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:08:25 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Returning to the TML<BR>
<BR>
Moin Dan Lane,<BR>
<BR>
> I've been away from the TML for a little over a year now due to professional<BR>
> committments.  I was wondering if any of the folks I used to correspond with<BR>
> are still out there.  Some individuals in particular were<BR>
<BR>
> Michael Koehne<BR>
<BR>
  I'm also back - you should note that my traveller site has changed!<BR>
<BR>
  its now http://traveller.copyleft.de/<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:00:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James<BR>
> Pearson<BR>
> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 9:46 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> This seems to have sparked some good banter.  The idea is to<BR>
> have the players share the point cost if I decide to implement one.<BR>
> The ship is required for the campaign.  The players are all agents<BR>
> for the AAB.  The scout ship is an advanced, deep exploration<BR>
> ship, with some additional weapons, jump capabilities, and a lab.<BR>
><BR>
> At any rate, the general consensus seems to be to NOT require an<BR>
> expenditure of points for the ship since it is required for the<BR>
> campaign and will not (usually anyhow) be used for their own<BR>
> personal gain (like a Merchant ship which they might use to profit<BR>
> from).<BR>
><BR>
> Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has<BR>
> "given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for<BR>
> the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well, if you do then you also need to remember that the pcs also get the<BR>
duty disadvantage as they owe a duty to their employers.  You might want to<BR>
just say these two cancel each other out.  As all the pcs have the same<BR>
advantages/disadvantages for being crew members it will all balence out.<BR>
<BR>
You should however charge points for rank.  Ships are not democracies and<BR>
the player willing to pay the points to be Captain should be allow his<BR>
privalages BUT if he messes up he should also suffer the consiquiences.<BR>
<BR>
For a small ship:<BR>
<BR>
Captain:  Rank 2,  10 points.<BR>
First mate: Rank 1,  5 points.<BR>
Others: Rank 0, 0 points.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that merchant ships also tend to have shares in the profits of<BR>
the run with a larger part going to the Captain and those of higher rank.<BR>
The Captain ussually also has some merrit shares to hand out as well.<BR>
Linking the two can make for some very intersting role playing.  Captains<BR>
should be warry of greedy engineers, opertunistic pursers, and load masters<BR>
with smuggler contacts!  Unless he gets a cut of course...<BR>
<BR>
Charles L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:09:18 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 11 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Ship's computer has an AS (Artificial Stupidity :-) user interface<BR>
> designed by a fan of primitive science fiction. Pick any of the<BR>
> following "personalities":<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
>    calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
> 2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
> 3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
> 4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
<BR>
Isn't that Kryten from Red Dwarf?<BR>
<BR>
"Engage Panic Circuits. Panic Circuits Engaged. AAAIIEEEEEEEE!"<BR>
<BR>
5. The ships lifts are made by the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation...;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:45:40 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Origins Award Balloting<BR>
<BR>
For those of you who are intersted, balloting for the 1999 Origins Awards<BR>
is now online at<BR>
<http://www.gama.org/academy>. Further information, including an<BR>
explanation of how best to create links to the Origins Awards online<BR>
balloting, are also available at that URL.<BR>
<BR>
This is not a case of "vote early and often" -- I urge you to vote once,<BR>
however, for the items of your choice. Please note, however, that you have<BR>
the opportunity to vote me into the Adventure Gaming Hall of Fame (where I<BR>
would join such luminaries as Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, and James F<BR>
Dunnigan), and any who choose to do so will receive my gratitude and<BR>
whatever good karma that brings.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:35:28 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: [OT] Kryten Quotes (was RE: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 4:09 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
<snip> <BR>
> Isn't that Kryten from Red Dwarf?<BR>
> <BR>
> "Engage Panic Circuits. Panic Circuits Engaged. AAAIIEEEEEEEE!"<BR>
<BR>
or a perennial favourite:<BR>
<BR>
Rimmer: "Suggest we go to Blue Alert!"<BR>
<BR>
Kryten: "Are you sure, Sir? It *will* mean changing the bulb."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:53:24 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anyway, my idea is that the Archduke of Vland (under duress, of course!)<BR>
> declared that since there was no legitimate Emperor, he was exercising his<BR>
> authority to order Arbellatra to restore order in the Imperium.  This would<BR>
> give Arbellatra a "legal" propaganda basis for her actions, not to mention<BR>
> control of the Vland fleet.<BR>
<BR>
Arbellatra was apparently appointed by Cleon V (no relation), who was one<BR>
of the more legitimate looking and powerful barracks emperors -- he had a<BR>
longish reign, and ended the interregnum in which the Sylean Home Worlds <BR>
had no effective emperor.  Perhaps she might be using her original orders<BR>
from him to defend the empire as her justification.  It's Cleon's death<BR>
in 618 in battle that leads to the mad scramble for the throne that sees<BR>
eleven emperors in the next three years....  <BR>
<BR>
> Of course, Arbellatra would have put the Archduke under house arrest<BR>
> immediately after "accepting his orders".  <BR>
<BR>
Perhaps their relationship is *much* more friendly -- they're in league<BR>
together.   On the way to her confrontation with Gustus, Arbellatra stops<BR>
at Vland and secures the Archduke of Vland's support by guaranteeing the<BR>
Vilani a larger role at Court.  Remember, she's still going to need the<BR>
support of the Moot for her plan to work.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, the tradition is that all the Barracks Emperors were Solomani<BR>
by blood -- the politics in the Moot at the time pretty much required it <BR>
if they hoped for a vote of legitimacy from them.  This pretty much rules<BR>
out the Archduke of Vland from making his own bid, and implies that the <BR>
Solomani Movement types could squash pro-Vilani initiatives.<BR>
<BR>
This has the interesting side-effect of requiring Arbellatra to perform a<BR>
balancing act between her Vilani supporters and the Solomani faction as<BR>
she rebuilds Imperial power.  <BR>
<BR>
The glitch there is that she later strips the archdukes of much of their<BR>
power, but that can be handled any number of ways.  <BR>
<BR>
Another somewhat unrelated question is who she married.  Zhakirov, her <BR>
oldest son, was born in 624....<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:03:15 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Awards<BR>
<BR>
OK, I just found out you only see the Hall of Fame ballot if you are a<BR>
member of the academy -- I still encourage any TMLers who are also academy<BR>
members (info on joining at the GAMA site) to consider voting me into the<BR>
hall of fame.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2590<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:08:13 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:07:41 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA82417;<BR>
	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:05:02 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:04:00 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA82369<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:03:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:03:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006121603.MAA82369@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2590<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2591</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/12/00 1:24:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Monday, June 12 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2591<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Awards<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Deckplans<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect  ions?)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:32:01 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing (OT)<BR>
<BR>
In message <3.0.5.16.20000606094207.4607aeb2@pop.mindspring.com>,<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes<BR>
>And when the Iraqis shoot George Bush?<BR>
<BR>
The secret service would shoot Quayle.  HTH HAND.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:21:13 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has <BR>
>"given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for <BR>
>the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Skip it.  All the PCs (and NPC crew, if any) are in the same<BR>
	'boat.'  I don't see how charging the players would contribute<BR>
	to the game.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:27:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connections?)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Steven Bonneville wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Another somewhat unrelated question is who she married.  Zhakirov, her <BR>
> oldest son, was born in 624....<BR>
> <BR>
Unlike men, women don't need spouses to have children, and there's never<BR>
any question of maternity.  Does Arbellatra strike YOU as the marrying<BR>
kind? <BR>
<BR>
My guess is that she either had herself inseminated or chose a lover whose<BR>
status was such that he could never aspire to any kind of power, someone<BR>
whose claim to being the father of her children might even be laughed at<BR>
and someone who could never infringe on her power in any way.<BR>
<BR>
In her position, I'd surely do the same.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:28:41 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Charles Prevatte writes:<BR>
>>Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has<BR>
>>"given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for<BR>
>>the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
>You should however charge points for rank.  Ships are not democracies and<BR>
>the player willing to pay the points to be Captain should be allow his<BR>
>privalages BUT if he messes up he should also suffer the consiquiences.<BR>
<BR>
	This is a good point, though low-rank NPCs would presumably be<BR>
	given fewer points to start with.<BR>
<BR>
>For a small ship:<BR>
>Captain:  Rank 2,  10 points.<BR>
>First mate: Rank 1,  5 points.<BR>
>Others: Rank 0, 0 points.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	If you wanted to make it interesting, you could have them bid for<BR>
	the higher ranks.  An approach that I have found useful in running<BR>
	Star Trek RPGs is reserving the First Officer as a NPC.  This<BR>
	leaves the real decision-making to the PC Captain, allows the First<BR>
	officer to mind the bridge while all the PCs head out on a mission<BR>
	away from the ship, and keeps a NPC in a good position to give<BR>
	advice, remind the Captain of regulations, rescue beleagered PCs,<BR>
	etc.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:31:35<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Awards<BR>
<BR>
At 11:03 AM 6/12/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>OK, I just found out you only see the Hall of Fame ballot if you are a<BR>
>member of the academy -- I still encourage any TMLers who are also academy<BR>
>members (info on joining at the GAMA site) to consider voting me into the<BR>
>hall of fame.<BR>
<BR>
I am awaiting my membership information, so I won't get to vote on this<BR>
ballot, but let me say this:<BR>
<BR>
You deserve it for what you've done over the years.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:35:02 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
><BR>
>All of the discussion on Point Defense seems to assume that incoming rounds<BR>
>will remain as 'observable' as they are today.  As PD becomes more effective,<BR>
>there will be a strong  incentive to make the incoming rounds less<BR>
>observable.  Shell casings could be made of composite materials, and designed<BR>
>to absorb/diffuse radar.<BR>
<BR>
  Striker rules allow that for determining PD effect. Reality-wise, <BR>
they're going to have a signature at least from friction in air. And<BR>
if super-sonic (let alone hyper-velocity KKM's!) then sound-ranging<BR>
will at least give you their launch points - more data helps.<BR>
<BR>
  Base-bleeders might be easier to detect too?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:36:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>
<BR>
> Unlike men, women don't need spouses to have children,<BR>
<BR>
In the Traveller Universe, the same can be said for men (eg Norris' true-daughter).<BR>
<BR>
> Does Arbellatra strike YOU as the marrying<BR>
> kind? <BR>
<BR>
An interesting question...<BR>
<BR>
It could be, perhaps, she has a husband who did nothing (in the political/historical sense) and most people really don't care/know who he was.  There are many instances in the real world where historical figures (almost all men) are know but who their wives were (or even if they had one) is almost nothing but of academic instance.<BR>
<BR>
> In her position, I'd surely do the same.<BR>
<BR>
And than my friends, is the *real* reason not to get Kiri mad a you. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:48:31 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This seems to have sparked some good banter.  The idea is to<BR>
> have the players share the point cost if I decide to implement one.<BR>
> The ship is required for the campaign.  The players are all agents<BR>
> for the AAB.  The scout ship is an advanced, deep exploration<BR>
> ship, with some additional weapons, jump capabilities, and a lab.<BR>
> <BR>
> At any rate, the general consensus seems to be to NOT require an<BR>
> expenditure of points for the ship since it is required for the<BR>
> campaign and will not (usually anyhow) be used for their own<BR>
> personal gain (like a Merchant ship which they might use to profit<BR>
> from).<BR>
> <BR>
> Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has<BR>
> "given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for<BR>
> the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Since it is a campaign element, not a character generation<BR>
element...just give it to 'em. Character points are the _player's_ to<BR>
spend, not the _GM's_.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:18:17 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> At any rate, the general consensus seems to be to NOT require an<BR>
> expenditure of points for the ship since it is required for the<BR>
> campaign and will not (usually anyhow) be used for their own<BR>
> personal gain (like a Merchant ship which they might use to profit<BR>
> from).<BR>
<BR>
I would give the party the ship even in a merchant campaign. Command<BR>
authority would probably go to the wisest/oldest character. If being<BR>
captain is a big advantage *over the other characters*, the captain<BR>
would have to pay points. If the ship is run in a (somewhat) democratic<BR>
fashion, I would not recommend having anyone paying points for the ship.<BR>
<BR>
> Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has<BR>
> "given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for<BR>
> the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
<BR>
I say skip the points cost. Let them spend their points on other things<BR>
instead.<BR>
<BR>
> I do still plan on implementing Quirks into the ship - thanks to<BR>
> everyone for their awesome suggestions in this realm as well!<BR>
<BR>
Quirks are always a good idea unless the ship is brand new. Off course,<BR>
prototypes often have construction errors, and moderately old models<BR>
have inconveniences that will be corrected in the upcoming model<BR>
(currently prototype).<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:19:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Moody, Danny M. wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>
> <BR>
> > Unlike men, women don't need spouses to have children,<BR>
> <BR>
> In the Traveller Universe, the same can be said for men (eg Norris'<BR>
> true-daughter).<BR>
><BR>
Yes, but it's much easier for women.  We can just go out and get ourselves<BR>
knocked up. (well, *I* can't, but most women are healthier than me...)<BR>
 <BR>
> > Does Arbellatra strike YOU as the marrying<BR>
> > kind? <BR>
> <BR>
> An interesting question...<BR>
> <BR>
> It could be, perhaps, she has a husband who did nothing (in the<BR>
> political/historical sense) and most people really don't care/know who<BR>
> he was.  There are many instances in the real world where historical<BR>
> figures (almost all men) are know but who their wives were (or even if<BR>
> they had one) is almost nothing but of academic instance.<BR>
> <BR>
I don't know many men who are willing to take that much of a backseat<BR>
role.  And I don't see Arbellatra being all gooey over Prince Albert like<BR>
Queen Victoria was.  For some reason, that I don't really understand,<BR>
although it is true even of me, most very powerful and self-confident<BR>
women (I do not have much real-world power at all, but I'm not scared of<BR>
anyone) are attracted to men who are equally confident.  Powerful men have<BR>
no trouble sleeping with attractive nonentities, but powerful women...?<BR>
<BR>
> > In her position, I'd surely do the same.<BR>
> <BR>
> And than my friends, is the *real* reason not to get Kiri mad a you. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
cuz I'm realistic?<BR>
<BR>
When you have a child with a man you are in a relationship with, you've<BR>
just decided that the relationship is going to last for some 20+ years.<BR>
Whether or not you remain married, lovers, or whatever, that person is<BR>
going to be part of your life.  A person in Arbellatra's position might<BR>
see that as a problem.  You have to take care of yourself or you can't<BR>
take care of anyone else.  Arbellatra had a HELL of a lot of people to<BR>
take care of.<BR>
<BR>
I've been married too many times and though I don't have children, due to<BR>
biological difficulties and personal inclination, I know many people who<BR>
do.  It's different for women in a way that is difficult to explain and<BR>
I'm not sure how much of it is cultural conditioning.  When I'm deeply<BR>
sexually bonded to a man, I sometimes have to fight the tendency to defer<BR>
to him in areas where I KNOW his judgement's not as good as mine.  And I<BR>
am a very aggressive, competitive personality who doesn't choose men who<BR>
excel in the same area as her because we compete and fight!  (I'll never<BR>
again marry a collaborator in writing for instance...)<BR>
<BR>
Technology can and may change that in ways we can't expect or foresee, but<BR>
for the purposes of role-playing, it's hard to get too far away from who<BR>
we human animals are now... people will tend to role-play out of their<BR>
combined experience and reading, and books that extrapolate how alien we<BR>
can really become are often great reading but are just not real popular<BR>
because people can't relate to them.  Would you rather try and roleplay<BR>
out of "Halfway Human" (wish I could recall the author) or the Vorkosigan<BR>
stories?  I find it hard to believe that the future will be as patriarchal<BR>
as it is in most of Bujold's societies, but it's easy to play that way.<BR>
<BR>
The society of the 3i strikes me as both more and less patriarchal than<BR>
our own, in unexpected ways.  Men can have their own children without<BR>
female help; this in some ways both frees and devalues women.  In any<BR>
hereditary nobility, you end up with marriages of convenience and<BR>
marriages of posterity.  Marriage is de facto a path to power, and it's<BR>
always the more powerful choice to remain unmarried.  Unless you can<BR>
totally trust your spouse (and we are talking about a military Empress<BR>
here, not someone inclined to perfect trust and perfect love) it's always<BR>
a gamble.<BR>
<BR>
Unless she'd been in love with the same man since she was 12 and they<BR>
married while she was as close to a grunt as she ever got to being, I'm<BR>
betting she never married. <BR>
<BR>
(Of course this is coming from the jaded perspective of a woman who has an<BR>
MA in Medieval History, has gone back to school to study Asian languages<BR>
and classical literature, and most importantly, wishes *she'd* never<BR>
married, so do what you will with it. ^_-)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:02:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yes it did. However it did not establish that the PC's were<BR>
>the only ones on the ship. NPC crew or passengers may exist<BR>
>on the ship. PC's who have taken the ship owner Advantage<BR>
>have something that these people do not. Said cost should be<BR>
>on their character sheets.<BR>
<BR>
The point system is intended to balance player characters, of this there can<BR>
be little doubt or little misunderstanding. If you believe that NPCs should<BR>
be balanced with the player characters then you're missing the whole point<BR>
of the system. The very point of balancing player characters on the same<BR>
scale is an attempt to ensure that each player character gets a fair amount<BR>
of "screen time" and is equally important to the game. NPCs, that is to say<BR>
characters which are used by the GM for a specific purpose, don't really get<BR>
offended or feel left out when they are not equally balanced with player<BR>
characters.<BR>
<BR>
Not all characters built on the same point system are "equal" with respect<BR>
to all abilities within the game. Some will be better at combat, some will<BR>
be better a brawling, some will be better at piloting. When balancing NPCs<BR>
against player characters, there's only one way to do it: you have to have<BR>
intimate knowledge of the abilities and skills of the player characters.<BR>
<BR>
>The crew of a ship is not necessarily all PC's. Even if they<BR>
>all start out as PC's one of them becomes an NPC whenever<BR>
>his player misses a session.<BR>
<BR>
See above. If the player is not there, a player is not there. If the player<BR>
is not there, the player will not feel left out that he doesn't have any<BR>
input on a situation or when he doesn't get a fair amount of "screen time".<BR>
<BR>
>What if two player characters are allies. Suppose that Susan<BR>
>and Mike's charecters are newly married and that they are<BR>
>almost always together. The GM says that both charecters have<BR>
>to take each other as 100 point allies appearing on a 15-.<BR>
>This costs 15 points (base of 5 x 3 for appears on a 15-).<BR>
<BR>
Um... I suspect that you've completely missed the point of the Ally<BR>
advantage. It's clearly stated that the advantage gives the player character<BR>
an NPC ally.<BR>
<BR>
>Than Susan and Mike's charecters both get 10 points of<BR>
>'Ship Owner'. Now both charecters are 110 point characters.<BR>
>Now their Ally advantage costs 30 points (base of 10 x3).<BR>
>Susan and Mike are now 15 points in the hole. They are now<BR>
>really 125 point characters.<BR>
<BR>
No they're not. They're actually 85 point characters without the 10 points<BR>
in Shipowner and 95 point with the 10 points in Shipowner. The theory behind<BR>
GURPS would indicate that these characters are underpowered in a campaign<BR>
with 100 point characters. They have gotten no real advantage for the points<BR>
that they spent, since their characters would be spending time around each<BR>
other anyway.<BR>
<BR>
The point of your example is lost on me.<BR>
<BR>
>(Some GM's might say that PC allies<BR>
>don't have to be paid for. I disagree since PC's can become<BR>
>NPC's when the other player doesn't show and you do have to pay<BR>
>for NPC allies.)<BR>
<BR>
Then you're being unreasonable and you're actively breaking the system by<BR>
not taking into account how the system was meant to be used. Anybody who<BR>
knew GURPS before going into your campaign would be unlikely to play after<BR>
such a stunt. Anybody who learned what GURPS was about after starting to<BR>
play would feel like you were actively trying to screw them over by<BR>
underpowering their character.<BR>
<BR>
>If the rest of the party throws in a few point and the<BR>
>scout throws in more points than the Scout will own more<BR>
>of the ship than the other players will and will be able<BR>
>to outvote them in ships meetings. This is an advantage.<BR>
>Advantages muct be paid for.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That's certainly possible. If this is the case, then the amount that the<BR>
scout paid above and beyond the other PCs should surely be noted on the<BR>
scout's character sheet.<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover I think that 100 point PC's ought to be balanced with<BR>
>100 point NPC's. Once the PC's have the ship they are suddenly<BR>
>115 point PC's because they have something (the ship) that<BR>
>the NPC's do not.<BR>
<BR>
Then you misunderstand why the point system is there at all.<BR>
<BR>
>Personally I would probably tell the players to take their<BR>
>100 point charecter sheets and add 15 points of the Ship Owner<BR>
>disadvantage and balance it with a 15 point Secret Disadvantage,<BR>
>(GT Comp I p 75). once the Pc's discovered who their 10 point<BR>
>enemy was the disadvantage would no longer be secret and the<BR>
>PC's would have to pay the 5 points.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I don't see the point here, actually. If it works for you, go for it.<BR>
On the other hand, character balance is a real minefield of problems. Pay<BR>
attention to what you're doing, because you may have to undo it or change it<BR>
later.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:03:27 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
I put some quirks into the ships that the PCs got ahold of in a<BR>
Megatraveller game I ran. I actually redesigned the ships with the starship<BR>
building tables and inserted modifications from there.<BR>
The scout courier a PC got had seen duty in the 5th Frontier War and had<BR>
some minor hull damage including a slightly dented nose from a collision<BR>
(giving it a sneering appearance), some bad circuitry in the chameleon hull<BR>
(which made static patterns tend to have a sort of whorly appearance close<BR>
up), and had been given some heavier armor than the standard 40 pts. I<BR>
redesigned it at TL11 rather than 15 and it had a bit of a shorter operating<BR>
duration. The interior was also a bit different from standard. Scouts, being<BR>
sent to operate in remote areas for long periods of time, built in<BR>
additional creature comforts into the living quarters and this particular<BR>
ship had an air circulation system fitted with equipment to handle<BR>
aroma-therapy as well as pleasure-den appointed living areas complete with<BR>
shag carpeting walls (like in Barbarella).<BR>
The far trader owned by the other PC with a ship was designed at TL12 but<BR>
had suffered power plant damage under the previous owner (the ship was 20-30<BR>
years old based on the PCs mustering out rolls) and had a TL15 replacement.<BR>
They had also moved a bulkhead between cargo and engineering to provide more<BR>
cargo space. But I also ruled that any roll on the internal explosion table<BR>
had to be at +2 due to a weaker bulkhead there. The interior appointings<BR>
were Classical Greco-Roman, the previous owner being Solomani.<BR>
It was then up to the ship owners to decide whether to repair or change any<BR>
of these ship quirks. Neither of them did before we had to split the game up<BR>
due to heading back to different college campuses.<BR>
So it was pretty easy to find quirks for ships even before GURPS and the<BR>
Quirks you can buy there.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn<BR>
bdunn@epicsystems.com<BR>
<BR>
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like<BR>
to pee a lot."   --Capital Brewery, Middleton, WI<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:24:47 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>
> > In the Traveller Universe, the same can be said for men (eg Norris'<BR>
> > true-daughter).<BR>
> ><BR>
> Yes, but it's much easier for women.  We can just go out and <BR>
> get ourselves<BR>
> knocked up. (well, *I* can't, but most women are healthier than me...)<BR>
<BR>
Which doesn't negate the statement.<BR>
<BR>
> I don't know many men who are willing to take that much of a backseat<BR>
> role.  <BR>
<BR>
Quite a broad brush there, not necessarily wrong, but broad.<BR>
<BR>
I don't actually think that 'taking a back seat' is the correct phrase to describe the situation.  There are  men in today's world who don't attempt to interfere with their wives career, and I assume that there will be such men in the future.  "You're doing Empress things, dear?  Okay - I'll just be in the pool when you're free."<BR>
<BR>
> Queen Victoria was.  For some reason, that I don't really understand,<BR>
> although it is true even of me, most very powerful and self-confident<BR>
> women (I do not have much real-world power at all, but I'm <BR>
> not scared of<BR>
> anyone) are attracted to men who are equally confident.  <BR>
<BR>
A man would have to be very confident in himself to feel comfortable with such a relationship.  Such men are as rare as women like Arbellatra are rare. I wouldn't doubt that if Arbellatra was married he would have been quite a formidable personality - but perhaps one who's core strength wasn't inclined towards power or control, but towards something else?  Confidence in yourself is not equal to Imperium-spanning power nor the desire for it.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, what about Margaret Thatcher husband, Denis?  I've never heard it said that he wasn't confident (artillery major and on the board of a major corporation), but he certainly took the 'backseat role' during her years as PM.  How many people know who he is?  How many people even know Margaret Thatcher *is* married?<BR>
<BR>
> Powerful men have<BR>
> no trouble sleeping with attractive nonentities, but powerful <BR>
> women...?<BR>
<BR>
(Again, that broad brush.  I would hazard a guess that this stereotype is a result of there being more 'powerful men' than 'powerful women'?)  Some of us have *quite* a problem with sleeping with 'attractive nonentities'.  Sure, they're cute, but you gotta talk to 'em eventually.  As my wife says, "you have to be this intelligent to take this ride."<BR>
<BR>
> > And than my friends, is the *real* reason not to get Kiri <BR>
> mad a you. :-)<BR>
> > <BR>
> cuz I'm realistic?<BR>
<BR>
Cause you'd march in from the borders and take over.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm not sure how much of it is cultural conditioning.  When I'm deeply<BR>
> sexually bonded to a man, I sometimes have to fight the <BR>
> tendency to defer<BR>
> to him in areas where I KNOW his judgement's not as good as <BR>
> mine.  And I<BR>
> am a very aggressive, competitive personality who doesn't <BR>
> choose men who<BR>
> excel in the same area as her because we compete and fight!  <BR>
> (I'll never<BR>
> again marry a collaborator in writing for instance...)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I do understand it in a way - my wife acts the same sometimes.  Of course, she has more degrees than I have fingers on my right hand, and is at least (and almost certainly more) intelligent than me.  The only person who *doesn't* think she is strong and confident is her.  I think it's a cultural thing - I've known too many smart, competent women like that.  Today's society sees any such power, confident, aggressive women as 'bitches', and doesn't really expect them to have 'normal' relationships.  I would expect to see more enlightened societies in the future.<BR>
 <BR>
> Technology can and may change that in ways we can't expect or <BR>
> foresee, but<BR>
> for the purposes of role-playing, it's hard to get too far <BR>
> away from who<BR>
> we human animals are now... people will tend to role-play out of their<BR>
> combined experience and reading, and books that extrapolate <BR>
> how alien we<BR>
> can really become are often great reading but are just not <BR>
> real popular<BR>
> because people can't relate to them.  Would you rather try <BR>
> and roleplay<BR>
> out of "Halfway Human" (wish I could recall the author) or <BR>
> the Vorkosigan<BR>
> stories?  I find it hard to believe that the future will be <BR>
> as patriarchal<BR>
> as it is in most of Bujold's societies, but it's easy to play <BR>
> that way.<BR>
<BR>
But is it so unbelievable that a strong, confident woman, who can conquer an empire, might also have such a relationship?  It's certainly happening today - even with the cultural baggage both men and women are subject too.<BR>
<BR>
> Unless she'd been in love with the same man since she was 12 and they<BR>
> married while she was as close to a grunt as she ever got to <BR>
> being, I'm<BR>
> betting she never married. <BR>
<BR>
Maybe, maybe not.  History hasn't recorded.<BR>
<BR>
Lady Thatcher married Denis when she was 26.<BR>
 <BR>
> (Of course this is coming from the jaded perspective of a <BR>
> woman who has an<BR>
> MA in Medieval History, has gone back to school to study <BR>
> Asian languages<BR>
> and classical literature, and most importantly, wishes *she'd* never<BR>
> married, so do what you will with it. ^_-)<BR>
<BR>
My wife only wished she hadn't married the first one.  She says she 'traded up' when she got me.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:50:55 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
At 8:45 AM -0500 6/12/00, James Pearson wrote:<BR>
>Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has<BR>
>"given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for<BR>
>the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, this points up the there is a broader issue here.  Do<BR>
you charge players for an advantage that they are all required<BR>
to have?  In many away it just doesn't matter.  Since you can<BR>
adjust the starting point totals to be anything you want, the<BR>
way to go would seem to be look at the players and decide how<BR>
many points, in addition to any required advantages, give you<BR>
the starting power level you want.  Then you either give the<BR>
advantages and the points, or give the points with enough<BR>
extra to pay for the advantages and then deduct them....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:54:57 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Man you have him portrayed far too crudely.<BR>
<BR>
It was an intentional parody in the form of a look behind<BR>
the scenes once the PCs have left.  Compare it to my<BR>
previous post that shows proper decorum.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:09:31 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Gentlebeings,<BR>
<BR>
SJ Games is looking seriously at releasing a series of deckplan packets, to<BR>
consist of (say) eight sheets of 17x22" -- the first set would show the<BR>
Beowulf and Empress Marava at 1/2" per hex (each would take up 4 17x22"<BR>
sheets), and would be suitable for use with figs or cardboard heroes, the<BR>
whole shebang for $19.95. I'm not sure whether these would be 1-color or<BR>
two-color, but we are looking at packing them in a ziplock bag with a<BR>
full-color cover sheet (front and back). I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to come<BR>
up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
<BR>
Any who think this is a good idea, and would like to suggest other subjects<BR>
for subsequent packets should e-mail me at lkw@io.com. I'm trying to guess<BR>
what demand might be . . .<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
P.S.: AHL on this scale would need 14 sheets, so we'd have to charge more<BR>
like $22+ for that one, if, as, and when. I haven't scaled out a<BR>
Broadsword, Tigress, or anything else yet.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:20:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect  ions?)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Moody, Danny M. wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Yes, but it's much easier for women.  We can just go out and get<BR>
ourselves knocked up. (well, *I* can't, but most women are<BR>
healthier than me...)<BR>
>> <BR>
> Which doesn't negate the statement.<BR>
> <BR>
Sure doesn't!<BR>
<BR>
> > I don't know many men who are willing to take that much of a backseat<BR>
> > role.  <BR>
> <BR>
> Quite a broad brush there, not necessarily wrong, but broad.<BR>
> <BR>
Hey, you saw "I don't know" in there didn't you?<BR>
<BR>
> I don't actually think that 'taking a back seat' is the correct phrase<BR>
> to describe the situation.  There are men in today's world who don't<BR>
> attempt to interfere with their wives career, and I assume that there<BR>
> will be such men in the future.  "You're doing Empress things, dear?  <BR>
> Okay - I'll just be in the pool when you're free."<BR>
><BR>
I'm sure that is true.  But most of those men are not subject to their<BR>
wives, and their wives' decisions have little or no effect on their lives<BR>
or on society AS A WHOLE-- it's much easier to be disinterested in the<BR>
career of a high-powered lawyer, doctor, whatever, than it is to be<BR>
disinterested in the career of a Senator/President/Empress.  Also, the<BR>
spouses of such persons almost always end up becoming celebrities and are<BR>
forced into the limelight, even if they hate it.<BR>
 <BR>
>> Queen Victoria was.  For some reason, that I don't really understand, <BR>
although it is true even of me, most very powerful and self-confident <BR>
women (I do not have much real-world power at all, but I'm not scared of <BR>
anyone) are attracted to men who are equally confident.  <BR>
>> <BR>
> A man would have to be very confident in himself to feel comfortable<BR>
> with such a relationship.  Such men are as rare as women like<BR>
> Arbellatra are rare. I wouldn't doubt that if Arbellatra was married<BR>
> he would have been quite a formidable personality - but perhaps one<BR>
> who's core strength wasn't inclined towards power or control, but<BR>
> towards something else?  Confidence in yourself is not equal to<BR>
> Imperium-spanning power nor the desire for it.<BR>
><BR>
You're absolutely correct, but a lot of people are scared off just by<BR>
confidence alone, let alone Imperium-spanning power.<BR>
 <BR>
> Besides, what about Margaret Thatcher husband, Denis?  I've never<BR>
> heard it said that he wasn't confident (artillery major and on the<BR>
> board of a major corporation), but he certainly took the 'backseat<BR>
> role' during her years as PM.  How many people know who he is?  How<BR>
> many people even know Margaret Thatcher *is* married?<BR>
><BR>
That's very true-- but I wonder what he would have been like during times<BR>
as turbulent as those we are discussing.<BR>
 <BR>
>> Powerful men have no trouble sleeping with attractive nonentities, but<BR>
powerful women...?<BR>
> <BR>
> (Again, that broad brush.  I would hazard a guess that this stereotype<BR>
> is a result of there being more 'powerful men' than 'powerful women'?)  <BR>
><BR>
It's just an observation.  Even if the number is VERY low, you still see a<BR>
certain number of powerful men with really dumb, but attractive female<BR>
companions.  These women often have virtues other than looks or<BR>
intelligence, such as nurturing personalities or sexual skill, but that's<BR>
not enough for most women.<BR>
<BR>
> Some of us have *quite* a problem with sleeping with 'attractive<BR>
> nonentities'.  Sure, they're cute, but you gotta talk to 'em<BR>
> eventually.  As my wife says, "you have to be this intelligent to take<BR>
> this ride."<BR>
> <BR>
And that's my point.  Most women feel that way.  I tend to prefer men<BR>
whose strengths are in different areas than mine, but I could never<BR>
tolerate a stupid man.<BR>
<BR>
> > > And than my friends, is the *real* reason not to get Kiri <BR>
> > mad a you. :-)<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > cuz I'm realistic?<BR>
> <BR>
> Cause you'd march in from the borders and take over.<BR>
> <BR>
Damn straight I would!<BR>
<BR>
> > I'm not sure how much of it is cultural conditioning.  When I'm deeply<BR>
> > sexually bonded to a man, I sometimes have to fight the <BR>
> > tendency to defer<BR>
> > to him in areas where I KNOW his judgement's not as good as <BR>
> > mine.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, I do understand it in a way - my wife acts the same<BR>
> sometimes.  Of course, she has more degrees than I have fingers on my<BR>
> right hand, and is at least (and almost certainly more) intelligent<BR>
> than me.  The only person who *doesn't* think she is strong and<BR>
> confident is her.  I think it's a cultural thing - I've known too many<BR>
> smart, competent women like that.  Today's society sees any such<BR>
> power, confident, aggressive women as 'bitches', and doesn't really<BR>
> expect them to have 'normal' relationships.  I would expect to see<BR>
> more enlightened societies in the future.<BR>
>  <BR>
I don't think it's just that.  There is something that happens inside of<BR>
my head when I'm profoundly sexually satisfied with someone (it hasn't<BR>
happened in anywhere close to ALL my relationships ^_-) that just makes me<BR>
gooey.  It muddles my thinking and makes me feel very content and "fat" on<BR>
an emotional level, almost complacent, and I feel rather yielding toward<BR>
the person who has made me feel this way.  Even when they're as dumb as<BR>
Hiroshi was capable of being sometimes.  (You know he was dumb, he left<BR>
ME!)<BR>
<BR>
I realize that men get led around by the "little head" quite a bit but it<BR>
tends to happen when they're in pursuit mode.  I'm very tactically<BR>
brilliant when I'm still in pursuit mode.  I have no problem nexting guys<BR>
who are idiots, or maintaining my detachment, at that point in time.  It's<BR>
when I'm feeling all gooshy later that I get into trouble.  Most of my<BR>
female friends are the same way.  The whole Rules thing that spawned so<BR>
much controversy isn't really about manipulating men; it's mostly about<BR>
how women can protect themselves from going all gooshy.  (Not that I do<BR>
that dance much-- my goal is NOT to get into a traditional marriage.  But<BR>
I grok the Rules and the reasons behind them.)<BR>
<BR>
And I really think it'll be a long time before society has changed enough<BR>
that we have any way to know how much of this is conditioning, how much is<BR>
biological, and how the synergistic effect of the two mesh (because I hate<BR>
to say this, but we wouldn't evolve the kinds of societies we have if they<BR>
weren't at some point in time effective).<BR>
<BR>
> But is it so unbelievable that a strong, confident woman, who can<BR>
> conquer an empire, might also have such a relationship?  It's<BR>
> certainly happening today - even with the cultural baggage both men<BR>
> and women are subject too.<BR>
<BR>
Not unbelievable, but hard to figure out how it happened.<BR>
<BR>
And in any event, if her spouse wasn't mentioned in canon, I see no reason<BR>
to assume that she had one just because she had children. <BR>
 <BR>
> > (Of course this is coming from the jaded perspective of a <BR>
> > woman who has an<BR>
> > MA in Medieval History, has gone back to school to study <BR>
> > Asian languages<BR>
> > and classical literature, and most importantly, wishes *she'd* never<BR>
> > married, so do what you will with it. ^_-)<BR>
> <BR>
> My wife only wished she hadn't married the first one.  She says she<BR>
> 'traded up' when she got me.<BR>
><BR>
Your wife only screwed up ONCE.  I've managed to pull it off three times<BR>
with legal papers and several more without.  I'm not done with<BR>
relationships, mind you-- I have too much of a physical drive for that ^_*<BR>
and I'm way too romantic to settle for just sex forever.  It's even<BR>
possible that someone could talk me into marrying again. But they'd have<BR>
to have one hell of an unbeatable argument!<BR>
<BR>
(I broke up with Hiroshi in March, which occasioned my absence for a<BR>
couple months.  Just recently started really dating again.  Like I said,<BR>
jaded is jaded.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:24:13 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:23:29 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA92937;<BR>
	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:21:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:20:47 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA92884<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:20:47 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:20:47 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006122020.QAA92884@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2592</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/12/00 5:18:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Monday, June 12 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2592<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:22:12 +0100<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Heaven & Earth V1.0.2 Some Issues<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
re:  Reverse-Order Digests<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
re:  GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:22:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:22:12 +0100<BR>
<BR>
In relation to Campaign Cartographer I said<BR>
<BR>
>> It does support Square and hex grids, fully scaleable too.<BR>
>> URL http://www.profantasy.com/<BR>
>><BR>
he Roc said<BR>
>I thought that I saw on the Profantasy site, that it has both Traveller<BR>
>deckplan icons and Traveller deckplans (both created by TML list members?)<BR>
>for free downloading to licensed users on their site?  I thought I saw<BR>
them,<BR>
>perhaps I am wrong?<BR>
><BR>
>- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
No you are right, however I have found some difficulty using the icons<BR>
personally.  (Mainly my lack of skill, not a problem with the icons).  The<BR>
icons and some ships are available from the profantasy site in the downloads<BR>
section, BTW you can download a free CC2 viewer that lets you see the images<BR>
in their full glory from the site as well, also allows you to get a good<BR>
idea of what the software can do before running it yourself.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
The conquest of space is facing two major problems: gravity and red tape.<BR>
We could have managed gravity<BR>
        Werner von Braun<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:25:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>>The Third Imperium is, officially, a restoration of the<BR>
>>Ziru Sirka.  What was the legitimacy of the Vilani<BR>
>>emperor's position?<BR>
You replied:<BR>
>    Could the fact that he can nuke you back to before the<BR>
>stone age be legitimacy enough for you?<BR>
<BR>
No.  The school bully is not the legitimate ruler of the<BR>
schoolyard, although he may in fact get whatever he wants. <BR>
Legitimate means in accordance with law or accepted as<BR>
correct and proper.  I've written in the past about a<BR>
social contract among the emperor, the nobility, and the<BR>
member states of the Imperium.  That seems to me to be the<BR>
only basis upon which the governed agree to be governed. <BR>
There is no mandate of heaven in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:46:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth V1.0.2 Some Issues<BR>
<BR>
It has come to my attention that there are a few issues in the latest<BR>
version of the program that effects a number of the features, namely:-<BR>
<BR>
1) 'Path Not Found' error at startup. this is caused by an error reading the<BR>
option.sav file. Delete the options.sav file and then select a world other<BR>
than Vilani. Quit the program and reload. Everything should be okay.<BR>
<BR>
2) The 'Empty Sector' option does not work. This was an oversight on my<BR>
behalf.<BR>
<BR>
My apologies to anyone having the above problems. Rest assured I am working<BR>
on resolving them and plan to release an updated version next weekend. I'm<BR>
afraid quality control took a sidestep to enthusiasm. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
If anyone is planning to download V1.0.2 I would recommend that they wait<BR>
for the next release.<BR>
<BR>
A few other minor bugs have been brought to my attention:-<BR>
<BR>
1) Map Scales are not displayed when Pregenerated World Data is loaded.<BR>
<BR>
2) There are some issues in GURPS system generation which need to be<BR>
resolved.<BR>
<BR>
3) MT System Maps need to be scaled so that they fill the Inner/Outer System<BR>
boxes.<BR>
<BR>
I hope to have all of these resolved for the next release.<BR>
<BR>
Many thanks to everyone for their support.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:06:35 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Loren,<BR>
<BR>
What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?   <BR>
Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on <BR>
the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Jun 2000, at 15:09, Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
> both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to<BR>
> come up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:10:12 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> Legitimate means in accordance with law or accepted as<BR>
> correct and proper.  I've written in the past about a<BR>
> social contract among the emperor, the nobility, and the<BR>
> member states of the Imperium.  That seems to me to be the<BR>
> only basis upon which the governed agree to be governed.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani probably had some kind of pre-starflight emperor title that<BR>
carried on when they begun expanding outside of their own solar system.<BR>
Since Vland is such a rough place to live, I can imagine people clinging<BR>
together (out of neccessity) more than the warlike Solomani. Therefore a<BR>
one world government does not seem that absurd.<BR>
<BR>
> There is no mandate of heaven in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
To claim such a thing is most inauspicious...<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:13:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/11/00 8:16 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> 1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
>>> calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
>>> 2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
>>> 3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
>>> 4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Re: #3<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I think you either mean:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Twikki ("Beegley Beegley... [pithy (?) comment]... Buck!") from Buck Rogers;<BR>
>> <BR>
>> or Kryten ("Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg...Smeeeeg-heeeed!") from Red Dwarf....<BR>
> <BR>
> No, the last season or so, they had Buck and company out exploring, and<BR>
> had a *very* annoying robot on the ship, and I'm pretty sure his name<BR>
> was Kryten. I've *never* seen Red Dwarf, so that's out as a source.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Kryten on Buck Rogers was the snotty, superior type.<BR>
<BR>
What about Dr. Theopolis? He was one of my favorites.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:23:42 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> SJ Games is looking seriously at releasing a series of deckplan packets, to<BR>
> consist of (say) eight sheets of 17x22" -- the first set would show the<BR>
> Beowulf and Empress Marava at 1/2" per hex (each would take up 4 17x22"<BR>
> sheets), and would be suitable for use with figs or cardboard heroes, the<BR>
> whole shebang for $19.95. I'm not sure whether these would be 1-color or<BR>
> two-color, but we are looking at packing them in a ziplock bag with a<BR>
> full-color cover sheet (front and back). I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
> both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to come<BR>
> up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
<BR>
Loren, have you considered leaving both hexgrids and square grids off<BR>
the plans altogether and including transparent overlays of each with<BR>
the packet?  It would only require that all the plans in the packet<BR>
be to the same scale.<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
          64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.<BR>
                  Somehow, it didn't make the news.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:28:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 10:06 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Loren,<BR>
> <BR>
> What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?   <BR>
> Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on <BR>
> the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
> <BR>
> On 12 Jun 2000, at 15:09, Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >  I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
> > both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to<BR>
> > come up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
> > <BR>
<BR>
Or the hex plan on one side of the sheet the square plan on the other...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:39:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
Hmmmm....Tacky Decor - I could have a lot of fun with that:<BR>
	"Well...tastes change in a few thousand years, but imagine a ship with the<BR>
equivalent of wall-to-wall Avocado Green shag carpet (threadbare, of<BR>
course), Harvest Gold faux-burlap textured wallpaper, and beaded curtains<BR>
over all the doorways...oh yes, the light fixtures in all the staterooms<BR>
look like lava-lamps"<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, a perverse GM (as opposed to merely sadistic) could have a lot<BR>
of fun with the sanitary facilities; imagine if the freshers had been<BR>
designed by some very tradition-minded Japanese:<BR>
	"Well, the WC and the bathing facilities seem to be two separate<BR>
compartments.  The WC (at least you ASSUME it is the WC) is a small,<BR>
featureless tiled cubicle where the only fixture looks a lot like a<BR>
porcelain slipper about 35 cm long and 15 cm wide set flush into the floor<BR>
(no pun intended).<BR>
	"Behind a separate door is the bathing facility.  What you assume is the<BR>
bathtub is an open tank about 90 cm square and a meter deep, while the<BR>
hand-held shower is half-way across the compartment, set into the<BR>
wall....but at about knee-height.<BR>
	"You are tired, dirty, and desperately have to take a leak..what do you<BR>
do?"<BR>
<BR>
	If it were retrofitted for non-humanoid aliens, things could be even more<BR>
fun.  >:-)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- -------------<BR>
	Disclaimer:  the half-baked opinions expressed above are my own; anyone<BR>
ascribing them to my employer is nuttier than I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:43:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Mark Cook" <markc@peak.org><BR>
To: "Traveller Mail List" <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 10:23 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > SJ Games is looking seriously at releasing a series of deckplan packets,<BR>
to<BR>
> > consist of (say) eight sheets of 17x22" -- the first set would show the<BR>
> > Beowulf and Empress Marava at 1/2" per hex (each would take up 4 17x22"<BR>
> > sheets), and would be suitable for use with figs or cardboard heroes,<BR>
the<BR>
> > whole shebang for $19.95. I'm not sure whether these would be 1-color or<BR>
> > two-color, but we are looking at packing them in a ziplock bag with a<BR>
> > full-color cover sheet (front and back). I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
> > both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to<BR>
come<BR>
> > up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
><BR>
> Loren, have you considered leaving both hexgrids and square grids off<BR>
> the plans altogether and including transparent overlays of each with<BR>
> the packet?  It would only require that all the plans in the packet<BR>
> be to the same scale.<BR>
><BR>
>         - Mark C.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, James Pearson has also suggested this. However, two transparent<BR>
plastic overlays would add considerably to the costs (I'd have<BR>
thought...clear plastic sheets always seem to much more expensive than<BR>
paper) and limit action to the area of the one overlay.<BR>
<BR>
Now my suggestion is to backprint the plans with one side being the hex<BR>
version and the other being the square. Back printing shouldn't add too much<BR>
to the costs, and allows you to lay out larger ships at once, with grids<BR>
covering all areas at once.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, If SJG were already considering having different decks<BR>
backprinted on each sheet, then you would need additional sheets which would<BR>
bump up the cost, but as Loren was comparing 4 sheets for $19.95 and 14<BR>
sheets for $22.95, I feel that the principal costs involved are packaging,<BR>
marketing and distribution, rather than the printing cost (and raw<BR>
materials) of each individual sheet.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:51:43 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:52:07 -0400 (EDT), GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 11-06-00 6:43:45 PM CST, <BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>> Other than Terra (whose supplies are "alarmingly low"), Planet X is the<BR>
>>  only known remaining source of Alludium Phosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom.<BR>
<BR>
>"Uuuuuu! That makes me so angry." I think you'll find the correct spelling is <BR>
>"Eludium"<BR>
<BR>
>Marvin is my favorite WB character :  )<BR>
<BR>
A while back, during what was otherwise a nice quiet workday at<BR>
the precinct, there was a near-accident outside - one of those<BR>
situations where you hear screeching brakes, loud enough to hear<BR>
a block away (this was right outside the precinct house), and you<BR>
brace, expecting to hear a crash.  Well, that crash never came,<BR>
and into the near-absolute silence following the screech, I said,<BR>
in my best Marvin the Martian voice (I've been told I could have<BR>
filled in for Mel), I said "Where's the KABOOM?  There was<BR>
supposed to be an Earth-shattering KABOOM!".<BR>
<BR>
I swear to you, _everybody_ in earshot - probably a hundred<BR>
people - was rolling on the floor.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:56:49 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Downport & Freelance Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:52:07 -0400 (EDT), Tod Glenn<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Thanks, I found it on Freelance.  I was looking at downport.  Who's your<BR>
>provider, BTW.  I noticed the add on Freelance.  Hate the darn things.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is hosted on Downport (Thank you again, Ron<BR>
and Colin and staff!), but our easy-to-remember URI,<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, is maintained by V3, owners of<BR>
the come.to domain.  The come.to address is a redirector; it's<BR>
free, so they require an ad, either on a popup or on a delay<BR>
page.  Since the ad only shows up the once, and can be dismissed<BR>
before it is completely loaded, I opted for that.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:15:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/12/00 2:51 PM, jzeitlin@cyburban.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> "Where's the KABOOM?  There was<BR>
> supposed to be an Earth-shattering KABOOM!".<BR>
<BR>
I had to find the sound file for this. It can be found at:<BR>
http://www.gargaro.com/marvinsounds.html<BR>
Marvin is the best.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:40:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Reverse-Order Digests<BR>
<BR>
>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Anyone else getting their digests in reverse order?  I<BR>
>just got #2584, #2583, #2582 and #2581 in that order.  <BR>
>Weird.<BR>
<BR>
I'm usually so far behind in my digests that I don't notice<BR>
the order.  Once in a while I get a very very late digest. <BR>
Like now we're in the 2580s, and I might get 2560.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:42:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
Now I know how Kenji Schwarz must have felt.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:45:15 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>According to the Progress report I got in the mail, Orycon<BR>
>(third weekend in November, in Portland, OR) is going to <BR>
>have a Traveller game in the gaming area. I quote the<BR>
>flyer:<BR>
<BR>
>The scenario has characters laying over at the Imperial <BR>
>Starport at Deneb, Spinward Marches, while their Free <BR>
>Trader undergoes retrofits. <BR>
<BR>
Deneb is not in the Spinward Marches.  I hope that this<BR>
lack of attention to detail is not characteristic of the<BR>
gamesmaster.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:19 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> >>The Third Imperium is, officially, a restoration of the<BR>
> >>Ziru Sirka.  What was the legitimacy of the Vilani<BR>
> >>emperor's position?<BR>
> You replied:<BR>
> >    Could the fact that he can nuke you back to before the<BR>
> >stone age be legitimacy enough for you?<BR>
> <BR>
> No.  The school bully is not the legitimate ruler of the<BR>
> schoolyard, although he may in fact get whatever he wants.<BR>
> Legitimate means in accordance with law or accepted as<BR>
> correct and proper.  I've written in the past about a<BR>
> social contract among the emperor, the nobility, and the<BR>
> member states of the Imperium.  That seems to me to be the<BR>
> only basis upon which the governed agree to be governed.<BR>
> There is no mandate of heaven in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The Emperor of the Ziru Sirka was _originally_ the chairman of the board<BR>
of the three corporate bureaux who had combined to run the fledgeling<BR>
Vilani Empire for their profit.<BR>
<BR>
It was a cartel, pure and simple, the Emperor was _originally_ the<BR>
elected (by the cartel heads, that is) leader of the Cartel. <BR>
<BR>
Later it became a hereditary position as the Vilani Empire crystallized<BR>
into it's rigid caste system.<BR>
<BR>
The Bureaux derived _their_ legitimacy from the fact that it was _their_<BR>
ships, _their_ factories, _their_ trade routes, _their_ commerce to<BR>
rule. They had eliminated the competition.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:49:30 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:19:15 PST<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
> > Any thoughts on how this might affect the effectiveness of PD?<BR>
><BR>
> Not as much as you might think. There are pretty strict limits on what<BR>
> you can *do* to the rounds without adversely affecting their<BR>
> performance. Changing shape is pretty much out of the question.<BR>
> Composites may compromise the rounds function, or cost too much. And<BR>
> they aren't a lot of help against frequency agile radar combined with<BR>
> lidar. And if there's any sort of sensors with "look down" capability<BR>
> the rounds are apt to show up as a moving "black" spot on the disply.<BR>
<BR>
How much of a reduction are we talking for a stealth shell ? Could I suggest<BR>
they are introduced at TL10, with a 50% reduction in warhead size (eg if you<BR>
usually have a 22kg warhead, a stealth warhead is 11 kg). I'd suggest that :<BR>
<BR>
Stealth Warheads are detected by the target's radars and lidars at 50% of<BR>
the range of a normal warhead, and by 75% of the range by radars and lidars<BR>
at a 45 degree angle to the path of flight. Increase these numbers by 10%<BR>
per TL difference between the detecting system and the TL of the round.<BR>
<BR>
Stealth warheads cost Cr 50 per cm of round (halved for mortars), plus the<BR>
cost of the round itself. They carry half the warhead of a conventional<BR>
round.<BR>
<BR>
Stealth warheads are not effective against passive detection (eg sound<BR>
ranging or PEMS of various sorts).<BR>
<BR>
Does this sound reasonable ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:40:05 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> Stealth Warheads are detected by the target's radars and lidars at 50% of<BR>
> the range of a normal warhead, and by 75% of the range by radars and lidars<BR>
> at a 45 degree angle to the path of flight. Increase these numbers by 10%<BR>
> per TL difference between the detecting system and the TL of the round.<BR>
<BR>
'course, the obious alternative (assuming you're using direct fire<BR>
weapons) is to incresae muzzle velocity. The round'll be detected at the<BR>
same distance from the target, but since it'll be going faster the PD<BR>
will have less tiem to react. Double the speed, half the reaction time.<BR>
<BR>
It also has the handy benefit of increasing KE rounds' damage effects.<BR>
(Sometimes to ridiculously obscene levels, I find...YMMV.)<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:35:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
>Can a missile deploy two det-laser warheads? One runs the risk of<BR>
>fratricide (one warhead's detonation destroying the second warhead<BR>
>before it can detonate).<BR>
<BR>
Good question. I think the coordination issues are solvable with a high enough tech level. I <BR>
designed the missile at TL 15.<BR>
<BR>
>All right. You have a 7 dton missile (which therefore won't fit in<BR>
>standard Imperial missile launchers), costing MCr 36 per shot. There is<BR>
>one burning question:<BR>
<BR>
>How much damage will this thing do, assuming that it hits the target?<BR>
<BR>
I had made a typo in the missile description. Rather than 7 dT it is 7 m^3. The missile <BR>
design is below. Tech Level is 15.<BR>
<BR>
Volume (m^3)     Cost (MCr)<BR>
   0.98         24.0000   Payload, two 500kT long range nuclear det-lasers<BR>
   1.33          0.0133   Propulsion, HEPlaR, 38 G design (26G realistic)<BR>
   1.6625        0.0001   Fuel-propulsion, 30 minutes<BR>
   2.2392        0.4478   Powerplant, Fusion, 14.78 MW<BR>
   0.0001          --     Fuel-powerplant, 30 minutes<BR>
   0.1090        0.0014   Hull, unstreamlined, Long Box, 20 AF, Enhanced Bonded SD<BR>
   0.0008          --     Structure, 38G<BR>
   0.5           2.5000   Sensor, PEMS 13.0<BR>
   0            0.0010   Smart Seeker<BR>
   0            2.5665   Military Ultrablack<BR>
   0            2.9557   Extreme Thermal Masking<BR>
   0.15          3.2081   Extreme Stealth<BR>
   0.007         0.0007   Passive Decoy Dispenser<BR>
   0.07          0.3500   Passive Decoy<BR>
<BR>
The HEPlar actually uses 13.3 MW. Most of the remaining 1.48 MW is for the exteme <BR>
thermal masking. The primary limitation of this missile is its limited duration of 30 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
>If this missile can't manage a one-shot mission kill (or better) on a<BR>
>warship the size of a _Midu Agashaam_ (a 3000 dton destroyer), against<BR>
>PD fire, nuclear damper turrets (AuricTech designs mounting damper<BR>
>turrets normally use a range of 50 kkm), and sand, it's probably not<BR>
>cost-effective.<BR>
<BR>
I was envisioning that it would be used against capital ships in the 50,000 dT to 100,000+ dT <BR>
range.  It would provide a stand-off capability for fighters.<BR>
<BR>
>To use a modern analogy, it would be cost-ineffective to develop a<BR>
>doctrine involving the routine use of $35,000 TOW missiles against<BR>
>$50,000 HMMWVs, or even $200,000 BTR-80 APCs. Sure, the missile is<BR>
>cheaper than the target, but there are even more cost-effective ways to<BR>
>kill such targets.<BR>
<BR>
>Thus, we reach the fundamental question: what is this missile's role? A<BR>
>missile intended for use by fighters, for instance, will have design<BR>
>parameters different from one intended for use by capital ships. Can<BR>
>this missile fill its intended role more efficiently than, say, a laser<BR>
>or PAW bay of the same volume as the missile launcher? Don't forget to<BR>
>include the logistical challenge of providing reloads in the analysis.<BR>
<BR>
>For a major fleet asset (such as a _Montana_ class battleship), an extra<BR>
>GCr 25 isn't all that much, when compared to the overall unit cost of<BR>
>just over GCr 746 per _Montana_. The improved sensor array will help<BR>
>such a ship find the enemy first, which enhances combat capability (both<BR>
>offensively and defensively). Indeed (checks notes), the _Montana_<BR>
>class does mount a 15.0 PEMS, along with eight 15.5 LIDARs. Note that<BR>
>the LIDARs could receive a +1.5 once the PEMS "hands-off" the bogey to<BR>
>the LIDAR (as per DSR).<BR>
<BR>
Remember that sensors have maximum tracking limitations (TL 15, active -60, <BR>
pssive-30). Your Montana class battleship can only engage a total of 510 missiles in one <BR>
turn (480 LIDAR, 30 Passive). Which means for a 1000 missile swarm 490 missiles will not <BR>
even be targeted. 1000 missiles at 36 MCr each is only 36 GCr. Can the Montana sustain a <BR>
combined damage value of 110,000+ (490 x 226 DV)? 1000 missiles is only 5% of the cost of <BR>
the Montana. I'm also assuming that your laser operators/nuclear dampers are 100 % <BR>
effective; if not, then there are still more missiles hitting your ship.  Your Montana will need <BR>
dedicated missile defense ships.<BR>
<BR>
I was envisoning that the missiles would be carried by fighters. On a 10 dT fighter 10 missiles <BR>
can be easily carried. A 100 fighter wing would then carry 1000 missiles. Naturally there <BR>
would be the cost of the fighter carrier. However, the bulk of the cost for this weapon system <BR>
are the missiles themselves.<BR>
<BR>
For this strategy to work the fighters would need to stay out of range of the Montana's <BR>
weapons. The fighters would need a stand-off capability. To achieve this and to allow the <BR>
missile to hit the target the fighter would need to achieve a substantial velocity. This velocity <BR>
would then be imparted to the missile at time of launch. I am still working on all the details for <BR>
this strategy plus the design of the fighters, fighter escorts, and fighter carrier. I will post it <BR>
when I am done.<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
>Or remove the "long range" det-laser warheads (which I never liked much, and<BR>
>are kind of a weird TNE thing - no TNE design really ever used them, and you have<BR>
>to pretend a grav focus thingy fits in the warhead package and operates on the<BR>
>timescale of the nuclear explosion, which doesn't fit with the "soliton" grav focus model.<BR>
<BR>
Hey............, I like fighters.  A long-range nuclear det-laser missile gives a fighter a good <BR>
weapon.  If these don't exist then fighters are worthless against capital ships.  Given the <BR>
canonical description of fighters being common then we should have long-range missiles.  <BR>
<BR>
>Besides, we at AuricTech Shipyards view the term "amazingly expensive"<BR>
>as our mission statement (see my sig file for details). ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Spent time in military acquisition ? Or, a defense contractor ?  I've spent considerable time in <BR>
that area.  The military takes the position of "...performance at any cost...".  Defense <BR>
contractors, "..cost is exponentially related to performance..."<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:47:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
N.I.C.Bradbeer writes:<BR>
> 'course, the obious alternative (assuming you're using direct fire<BR>
> weapons) is to incresae muzzle velocity. The round'll be detected at the<BR>
> same distance from the target, but since it'll be going faster the PD<BR>
> will have less tiem to react. Double the speed, half the reaction time.<BR>
<BR>
However, this discussion was mostly about indirect fire weapons, and you<BR>
can't do much to speed them up.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:16:11 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
> I was envisoning that the missiles would be carried by fighters.  On a 10 dT fighter 10 missiles<BR>
> can be easily carried.  A 100 fighter wing would then carry 1000 missiles.  Naturally there<BR>
> would be the cost of the fighter carrier.  However, the bulk of the cost for this weapon system<BR>
> are the missiles themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'm convinced there are even cheaper ways of killing one of<BR>
those monstrosities, using large quantities of cheap kit costing less<BR>
than 20% of the Montana's procurement costs. But I need my sleep too bad<BR>
at the moment to sit down with FFS.<BR>
<BR>
NB<BR>
+++<BR>
Likes cheap kit.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:18:00 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:17:11 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA02433;<BR>
	Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:16:20 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:16:12 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA02397<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:16:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:16:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006130016.UAA02397@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2593</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/12/00 9:37:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2593<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
that last...<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
Re: Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: Electronic warfare<BR>
Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
Re: GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
re:  GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:16:53 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
<BR>
>> I do still plan on implementing Quirks into the ship - thanks to<BR>
>> everyone for their awesome suggestions in this realm as well!<BR>
><BR>
>Quirks are always a good idea unless the ship is brand new. Off course,<BR>
>prototypes often have construction errors, and moderately old models<BR>
>have inconveniences that will be corrected in the upcoming model<BR>
>(currently prototype).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I see you're still blocking Star Treks 1 & 5 (probably not a bad idea, <BR>
actually). New ships just have a *different* type of quirk. Many have to do <BR>
with "wearing in" instead of "wearing out"...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:17:45 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: that last...<BR>
<BR>
Gaah!<BR>
<BR>
usually I'm better at subject lines...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:18:52 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> However, this discussion was mostly about indirect fire weapons, and you<BR>
> can't do much to speed them up.<BR>
<BR>
Sure.<BR>
<BR>
Although I just had an idea. We can't increase the _muzzle_ velocity,<BR>
but howsabout we lob a big-ass round with a warhead and a boost rocket.<BR>
The round goes up, the round turns over and points down, and the booster<BR>
fires to accelerate it (a lot) downwards. If the rounds are smart<BR>
antitank jobs already then the additional expense could probably be<BR>
justified. Even if they're dumb rounds for saturation fire, a<BR>
sufficiently effective enemy PD might make the extra expense worthwhile.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:32:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
<BR>
Note, my proofreading wasn't perfect.  I left off a few things in the missile description.<BR>
<BR>
Damage Value -- 226          (two 500 kT long-range nuclear det-laser warheads)<BR>
Volume           --     7 m^3<BR>
Cost                    36 MCr<BR>
<BR>
A 1000 missile swarm generates 226,000 DV at 36,000 MCr.  There are the costs for the <BR>
fighters and the fighter carrier, but the bulk of the cost are the missiles themselves.  A ten Td <BR>
fighter can carry 10 missiles.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:16:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
Why did the Rebellion happen in MT?  Was it really feasible that it could<BR>
have happened as described?<BR>
<BR>
Aside from: the assassination of Strephon & company (the trigger)<BR>
                   the introversion and indifference of the nobility<BR>
                   the indifference of the moot to the stagnation of the<BR>
Imperium<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember reading something about economic depression in the<BR>
Illelish region.  I don't know if I made this up or actually read it in one<BR>
of the MT books.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, what I'm hoping to arrive at is some discussion on the<BR>
political and socio-economic factors that may have been at work in the<BR>
Imperium that provided a the centrpetal force that so quickly split the<BR>
Imperium apart.  These reason may have already been mentioned or alleded to<BR>
in canon, but I was hoping to make better sense of them.  Some things that I<BR>
can think of are the Ine Givar (for some reasosn I remember these as<BR>
ruthless pro-democratists) and Dulinor's desire for<BR>
a more equitable distribution of the benefits of Imperium membership to all<BR>
of its worlds..<BR>
<BR>
It just has always seemed to me that the Imperium of 1107 (pre 5FFW) was<BR>
quite stable (in the Marches at least) but by 1116, mysteriously, the<BR>
aforementioned factors had somehow transformed the Imperium into a bomb<BR>
ready to explode.  What did Dulinor know and want to achieve.  Did he have<BR>
higher goals than simply seeing himself on the Iridium Throne?  Was he in a<BR>
sense a patriot who truly wanted a better Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane<BR>
danielrlane@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:40:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 04:06 PM 6/12/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Loren,<BR>
><BR>
>What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?   <BR>
>Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on <BR>
>the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
<BR>
Now *there's* an idea!  Two clear overlays, one hex, one square grid, so<BR>
you can use the deckplans as simple decoration or for detailed combat<BR>
resolution, using your favorite Traveller close combat system. :)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:39:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
<BR>
My brother once offered up a fascinating conceptual idea for the much<BR>
denigrated Lucan.<BR>
<BR>
(1) He maintained that Lucan suffered from some form of treatable mental<BR>
illnesss which he constantly struggle.<BR>
(2) In this concept, he actively fought to restrain his sociopathy.  He knew<BR>
he was a poor choice to lead, but his meglomania would allow him to step<BR>
down.<BR>
(3) Perhaps there were powers behind the throne that kept him in power and<BR>
used him as a pawn.<BR>
(4) Lucan was indeed a madman, but he did not enjoy being one and took no<BR>
pleasure in his infamous acts.<BR>
(5) He was simply powerless to do anything about it.<BR>
<BR>
Why?<BR>
<BR>
(1) He had no military or political training yet was forced into the<BR>
position of emperor (perhaps by himself, perhaps by someone behind the<BR>
throne)<BR>
(2) He felt that the False Strephon was indeed an imposter.<BR>
(3) He hated Dulinor for the murder of his uncle's family.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, I entertained the idea that Lucan may have been innocent of<BR>
Varian's murder or else that this brother's death was an accident for which<BR>
Lucan felt or was advised that he could not publicly admit guilt.<BR>
<BR>
All of this was done to elimiate as much melodrama from the Rebellion as<BR>
possible.  We wanted the Rebellion to be moving and fought for reasons that<BR>
real men and women have died for in the past.  Witness any of the many civil<BR>
wars fought over the past half millenium, whether here in the U.S., in the<BR>
UK, etc...<BR>
<BR>
Neither Lincoln nor Davis were cartoon characters and we felf than Lucan's<BR>
position was more tenable and realistic if he was too.<BR>
<BR>
The Caligula and Hitler prototypes not withstanding (Martin I, II, III?<BR>
filled that role.)<BR>
<BR>
Purely as an aside, I found that the name "Lucan" was that of the Roman poet<BR>
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus who lived from AD 39-65 and was born in Spain.<BR>
Many of the names of prominent Imperial citizens of Solomani  extraction ind<BR>
their origins in literature.  Off the top of my head, I believe Strephon,<BR>
Iolanthe and Iphegenia are all from wither plays, greco-roman literature or<BR>
both.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this is interesting and stirs up some meaty discussions.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:18:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Ship's computer has an AS (Artificial Stupidity :-) user interface<BR>
>>designed by a fan of primitive science fiction. Pick any of the<BR>
>>following "personalities":<BR>
>><BR>
>>1. the female ship's computer from that one ST:TOS episode (inisted on<BR>
>>   calling Kirk "dear", sulked, etc)<BR>
>>2. Marvin the paranoid android<BR>
>>3. Kryten from "Buck Rogers"<BR>
>>4. The bomb in Dark Star <eg><BR>
>><BR>
>>I'm sure you can think of other "annoying computers" from fiction.<BR>
><BR>
> Give them the nicest computer of all, HAL:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>         "I'm sorry, I can't do that Dave."<BR>
><BR>
> Just pitching your voice correctly should induce enough paranoia,<BR>
> even if HAL hasn't got some secret to hide from the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
Don't you have HAL soundclips on *your* system? Heck, with modern<BR>
gizmos, you could convert a bunch of sound clips to MP3 files and use<BR>
one of those portable MP3 players to play them on cue.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:21:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> What about when the computerized litterbox spaces the ships cat?<BR>
> or is that a sign of virus infection?<BR>
<BR>
No, it just means that the computer is a dog person, not a cat person.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:55:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane wrote,<BR>
>Why did the Rebellion happen in MT?  Was it really feasible that it could<BR>
have happened as described?<<BR>
<BR>
It's like the "straw that broke the camel's back". The Imperium was stable<BR>
as long as...<BR>
As long as more than one person didn't make a claim;<BR>
As long as people didn't think about their differences;<BR>
As long as a coup was quick (Dulinor was an idiot to think he could shoot<BR>
the Emperor then leave Capital and be recognized);<BR>
As long as people thought more about the problems at hand and not their own<BR>
aspirations (Lucan was an idiot to "seize" the throne and the Moot was full<BR>
of morons for insisting on a full vote while an assassin  none of them<BR>
wanted was running around);<BR>
And so on.<BR>
Or maybe Solomani just can't form governments that last  much more than a<BR>
1000 years or so.<BR>
*shrug*<BR>
I think the basic MT stuff did a pretty good job of showing the 3I as a<BR>
straw house waiting for a big enough wind to come by. Should it be?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:15:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
At 06:18 PM 6/12/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Don't you have HAL soundclips on *your* system? Heck, with modern<BR>
>gizmos, you could convert a bunch of sound clips to MP3 files and use<BR>
>one of those portable MP3 players to play them on cue.<BR>
<BR>
My newmail alert is HAL from _2010_<BR>
<BR>
"There is a message for you."<BR>
<BR>
Late at night, when I'm distracted, that can make me jump.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Penguin Boy,  Righter of wrongs, hero to millions, &<BR>
friend to Flash Gordon."   - Legate Legion on the TML<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:28:56 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Damage Value 110,000+ (was Missile Electronic Warfare)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
 <BR>
> A ten Td fighter can carry 10 missiles.<BR>
<BR>
With what kind of performance?  After all, dedicating 50% of the<BR>
fighter's volume to ordnance (not counting the equipment to carry and<BR>
launch said ordnance) has to impose some heavy burden on performance.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that you deploy a fighter carrying ten MCr 36 missiles, that<BR>
gives you a cost-per of MCr 360, plus the considerable cost of the<BR>
carrying fighter.  I'll be generous, and assume a cost of MCr 21 for the<BR>
fighter.<BR>
<BR>
For this price, I can purchase two _Snipe_ class 100 dton SDBs (each of<BR>
which has a spinal NPAW capable of vaporizing a 10-ton fighter), and<BR>
still have MCr 50 left over.<BR>
<BR>
Your hypothetical 1000-missile alpha strike, carried by 100 fighters,<BR>
will cost you GCr 38.1, without including the cost of the ship(s) needed<BR>
to carry the fighters.  For this price, I can purchase five _Kingfish_<BR>
class raider tenders (with fleet-capable Jump-4, 6-G performance), each<BR>
of which carries four _Snipe_ class SDBs, and have over GCr 3.4 left to<BR>
spend on other things.  25 fairly hefty NPAWS, plus the 12 laser turrets<BR>
and single missile launcher on a _Kingfish_, should do for quite a few<BR>
of those fighters, even before they launch.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the NPAW carried on the _Snipe_ class is rated at DV 230 out<BR>
to Long range (DV 160 at Extreme range), and never runs out of ammo. <BR>
The NPAW on the _Kingfish_ class is a bit more impressive, at DV 308 all<BR>
the way through Extreme range.<BR>
<BR>
The inherent problem with fighters in Traveller is that they have no<BR>
significant speed advantage over even capital ships.  The best-case<BR>
scenario (using highly-expensive fast ordnance equivalent to your<BR>
missile) has the fast missile boat (such as the former Soviet Union<BR>
OSA-II) as their closest modern equivalent.  Most anti-ship missiles in<BR>
the Traveller setting are equivalent to torpedoes, and are scarcely<BR>
faster than their targets.  If you can imagine sailing a 35-knot PT<BR>
boat, armed with 40-knot torpedoes (with a 30 km range), to engage<BR>
32-knot ships that carry light (5") guns (one hit from which will likely<BR>
obliterate your boat) that can fire out to 18 km, and heavier guns that<BR>
can fire out to 26 km (6"), 28 km (8"), or 40+ km (16"), you begin to<BR>
see the problem.  Add to this mess both small-caliber (20mm-40mm) guns<BR>
that can fire into the water, blowing up some torpedoes you do manage to<BR>
launch, and decoys to deflect some of your homing torpedoes, and you<BR>
have a greater understanding of the problems with using fighters against<BR>
major warships.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:27:22 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> My brother once offered up a fascinating conceptual idea for the much<BR>
> denigrated Lucan.<BR>
> <BR>
> (1) He maintained that Lucan suffered from some form of treatable mental<BR>
> illnesss which he constantly struggle.<BR>
...<BR>
> (3) Perhaps there were powers behind the throne that kept him in power and<BR>
> used him as a pawn.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, this is great stuff.  Very cool for the "wheels<BR>
within wheels" plotline.  Lucan isn't quite what<BR>
he seems to be; there are powers using him to further<BR>
their ends; thus his struggle strikes a sympathetic<BR>
chord with us.  On the other hand, he has his ambitions<BR>
and his madness, which he doesn't totally contain...<BR>
and, in the end, all of his little concessions to power<BR>
and ego devour him and the core of the Imperium, too.<BR>
<BR>
A great tragic anti-hero, or something like that.<BR>
Very cool ideas, indeed.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:33:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> SJ Games is looking seriously at releasing a series of deckplan packets, to<BR>
>> consist of (say) eight sheets of 17x22" -- the first set would show the<BR>
>> Beowulf and Empress Marava at 1/2" per hex (each would take up 4 17x22"<BR>
>> sheets), and would be suitable for use with figs or cardboard heroes, the<BR>
>> whole shebang for $19.95. I'm not sure whether these would be 1-color or<BR>
>> two-color, but we are looking at packing them in a ziplock bag with a<BR>
>> full-color cover sheet (front and back). I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
>> both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to come<BR>
>> up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
><BR>
> Loren, have you considered leaving both hexgrids and square grids off<BR>
> the plans altogether and including transparent overlays of each with<BR>
> the packet?  It would only require that all the plans in the packet<BR>
> be to the same scale.<BR>
<BR>
I second this notion. I know of no gamer who can't use more hex/square<BR>
overlay sheets. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:36:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmmm....Tacky Decor - I could have a lot of fun with that:<BR>
>    "Well...tastes change in a few thousand years, but imagine a ship with the<BR>
> equivalent of wall-to-wall Avocado Green shag carpet (threadbare, of<BR>
> course), Harvest Gold faux-burlap textured wallpaper, and beaded curtains<BR>
> over all the doorways...oh yes, the light fixtures in all the staterooms<BR>
> look like lava-lamps"<BR>
><BR>
>     Of course, a perverse GM (as opposed to merely sadistic) could have a lot<BR>
> of fun with the sanitary facilities; imagine if the freshers had been<BR>
> designed by some very tradition-minded Japanese:<BR>
>         "Well, the WC and the bathing facilities seem to be two separate<BR>
> compartments.  The WC (at least you ASSUME it is the WC) is a small,<BR>
> featureless tiled cubicle where the only fixture looks a lot like a<BR>
> porcelain slipper about 35 cm long and 15 cm wide set flush into the floor<BR>
> (no pun intended).<BR>
<BR>
If anybody can't picture this, I can dig up some JPGs from<BR>
alt.binaries.erotica.anime. I may even be able to find ones that would<BR>
be "clean" even without the "fuzz out the naughty bits" type of<BR>
censoring the Japanese artists use.<BR>
<BR>
I've also picked up some nice ship's corridors, cabins, etc from there.<BR>
<BR>
>      "Behind a separate door is the bathing facility.  What you assume is the<BR>
> bathtub is an open tank about 90 cm square and a meter deep, while the<BR>
> hand-held shower is half-way across the compartment, set into the<BR>
> wall....but at about knee-height.<BR>
>       "You are tired, dirty, and desperately have to take a leak..what do you<BR>
> do?"<BR>
<BR>
Drop my pants and squat over the "slipper", facing towards the heel. <BR>
<BR>
And in the bathing facilities, I'll start the "tank" filling with water<BR>
as hot as I can stand. While that's happening, I'll soap up, srcub, and<BR>
rinse the dirt & soap off over by the handheld shower. Then climb into<BR>
the tank for a long soak. (Only *barbarians* get into the tub *dirty*!)<BR>
<BR>
And no, I've never been to Japan. But I read a lot. <g><BR>
<BR>
BTW, a "Turkish" toilet is even more "fun". From all accounts, it's<BR>
basicly a *hole* in the floor, with a set of footprints outlined on<BR>
either side (I assume for the benefit of tourists, so they know where<BR>
to put their feet).<BR>
 <BR>
>    If it were retrofitted for non-humanoid aliens, things could be even more<BR>
> fun.  >:-)<BR>
<BR>
Oh, you mean like the wire wheel and "mild" acid spray that they use<BR>
instead of toilet paper?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:25:27 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
"N.I.C.Bradbeer" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> > However, this discussion was mostly about indirect fire weapons, and you<BR>
> > can't do much to speed them up.<BR>
><BR>
> Sure.<BR>
><BR>
> Although I just had an idea. We can't increase the _muzzle_ velocity,<BR>
> but howsabout we lob a big-ass round with a warhead and a boost rocket.<BR>
> The round goes up, the round turns over and points down, and the booster<BR>
> fires to accelerate it (a lot) downwards. If the rounds are smart<BR>
> antitank jobs already then the additional expense could probably be<BR>
> justified. Even if they're dumb rounds for saturation fire, a<BR>
> sufficiently effective enemy PD might make the extra expense worthwhile.<BR>
><BR>
> Nick<BR>
<BR>
Ummm...AFAIK... US military research into PD/SDI already does this sort of<BR>
thing with missiles to boost them to trans-polar ballistic speed from lower<BR>
altitudes....stage one fires up...stage two fires down...they still get<BR>
interception kills.<BR>
<BR>
OOH In the case above the track would still be ballistic and would probably be<BR>
reasonably high to allow lock on/orientation of the terminal round..<BR>
OTOH After booster ignition the round would change track and screw up PD<BR>
calculations<BR>
<BR>
OTGH I think this been covered under submunitions for cruise missiles...and if<BR>
you are forcing the enemy to lug around speciality rounds to counter PD fire<BR>
you are forcing the moves not responding to them...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:47:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Electronic warfare<BR>
<BR>
>Remember that sensors have maximum tracking limitations (TL 15, active -60,<BR>
>pssive-30). Your Montana class battleship can only engage a total of 510<BR>
missiles in one<BR>
>turn (480 LIDAR, 30 Passive).<BR>
That's a minor design flaw, easily corrected by adding more LIDARs. (A<BR>
battleship ought to<BR>
have a couple of hundred LIDAR.)<BR>
<BR>
>I was envisoning that the missiles would be carried by fighters.<BR>
Why pay the middleman? Why not just launch the missiles directly? If you<BR>
double their<BR>
size you can get a pretty good endurance out of them and launch from long<BR>
range...<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:18:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:52:07 -0400 (EDT), GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>In a message dated 11-06-00 6:43:45 PM CST, <BR>
>>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>> Other than Terra (whose supplies are "alarmingly low"), Planet X is the<BR>
>>>  only known remaining source of Alludium Phosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom.<BR>
><BR>
>>"Uuuuuu! That makes me so angry." I think you'll find the correct spelling <BR>
>> is "Eludium"<BR>
<BR>
My money is on "Illudium" because that's what was *written* on<BR>
something in one of the cartoons.<BR>
<BR>
>>Marvin is my favorite WB character :  )<BR>
><BR>
> A while back, during what was otherwise a nice quiet workday at<BR>
> the precinct, there was a near-accident outside - one of those<BR>
> situations where you hear screeching brakes, loud enough to hear<BR>
> a block away (this was right outside the precinct house), and you<BR>
<BR>
Aha! A member of the law enforcement community.<BR>
<BR>
Tell us, Sir, what would *your* reaction to a typical bunch of<BR>
Traveller PCs if you were the local law? <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:21:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>According to the Progress report I got in the mail, Orycon<BR>
>>(third weekend in November, in Portland, OR) is going to <BR>
>>have a Traveller game in the gaming area. I quote the<BR>
>>flyer:<BR>
><BR>
>>The scenario has characters laying over at the Imperial <BR>
>>Starport at Deneb, Spinward Marches, while their Free <BR>
>>Trader undergoes retrofits. <BR>
><BR>
> Deneb is not in the Spinward Marches.  I hope that this<BR>
> lack of attention to detail is not characteristic of the<BR>
> gamesmaster.<BR>
<BR>
It could be a screwup by someone between him and the editor of the<BR>
progress report.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:34:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 'course, the obious alternative (assuming you're using direct fire<BR>
> weapons) is to incresae muzzle velocity. The round'll be detected at the<BR>
> same distance from the target, but since it'll be going faster the PD<BR>
> will have less tiem to react. Double the speed, half the reaction time.<BR>
<BR>
Only in *direct fire* mode. In *indirect fire* mode, increasing the<BR>
velocity actually *increases* the flight time, because to hit a given<BR>
point you have to fire at a steeper angle as the velocity increases.<BR>
<BR>
Artillery in a laser & PAW environment *won't* do direct fire unless<BR>
they are being overrun!<BR>
<BR>
> It also has the handy benefit of increasing KE rounds' damage effects.<BR>
> (Sometimes to ridiculously obscene levels, I find...YMMV.)<BR>
<BR>
Air drag becomes an important factor at any sort of range. The<BR>
projectile will be moving at *terminal* velocity, unless the range is<BR>
pretty short, in which case it'll be moving *slower*.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, a shell is moving at *zero* velocity vertically at the peak<BR>
of the trajectory. The *horizontal* velocity is dropping from the point<BR>
it leaves the barrel.<BR>
<BR>
And as I noted before, above a certainly velocity the flight times<BR>
become unworkably long, as they are essentially placed in an orbit that<BR>
intersects the ground...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:46:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> I do still plan on implementing Quirks into the ship - thanks to<BR>
>>> everyone for their awesome suggestions in this realm as well!<BR>
>><BR>
>>Quirks are always a good idea unless the ship is brand new. Off course,<BR>
>>prototypes often have construction errors, and moderately old models<BR>
>>have inconveniences that will be corrected in the upcoming model<BR>
>>(currently prototype).<BR>
><BR>
> I see you're still blocking Star Treks 1 & 5 (probably not a bad idea, <BR>
> actually). New ships just have a *different* type of quirk. Many have to do <BR>
> with "wearing in" instead of "wearing out"...<BR>
<BR>
Or, rather often, finding out which wiring (or, <shudder> *plumbing*)<BR>
connections some idiot in the yard got swapped. <BR>
<BR>
Stuff like the shower in one cabin being hooked to the sewage line,<BR>
instead of the cold water line....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:27:35 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: re:  GURPS Traveller game at OryCon<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> sez:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Deneb is not in the Spinward Marches.  I hope that this<BR>
>lack of attention to detail is not characteristic of the<BR>
>gamesmaster.<BR>
<BR>
 Well... taking the literal approach, Deneb is in the spinward marches of the <BR>
Imperium, but it isn't in the Spinward Marches...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
"Your friend is a sick nobody. I don't hunt nobodies..."<BR>
   -Spike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:35:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Not only that - but I can mark them up with my cool pen set (fires, smoke,<BR>
dead bodys of PC's littering.. Ahem... umm.. smoke..) and not ruin the maps!<BR>
<BR>
I would by two of these!<BR>
<BR>
;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 8:34 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> SJ Games is looking seriously at releasing a series of deckplan packets,<BR>
to<BR>
>> consist of (say) eight sheets of 17x22" -- the first set would show the<BR>
>> Beowulf and Empress Marava at 1/2" per hex (each would take up 4 17x22"<BR>
>> sheets), and would be suitable for use with figs or cardboard heroes, the<BR>
>> whole shebang for $19.95. I'm not sure whether these would be 1-color or<BR>
>> two-color, but we are looking at packing them in a ziplock bag with a<BR>
>> full-color cover sheet (front and back). I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
>> both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to come<BR>
>> up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
><BR>
> Loren, have you considered leaving both hexgrids and square grids off<BR>
> the plans altogether and including transparent overlays of each with<BR>
> the packet?  It would only require that all the plans in the packet<BR>
> be to the same scale.<BR>
<BR>
I second this notion. I know of no gamer who can't use more hex/square<BR>
overlay sheets.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2593<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (rly-yh01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.33]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:37:55 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:37:45 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA12598;<BR>
	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:36:44 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:36:06 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id AAA12546<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:36:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:36:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006130436.AAA12546@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2593<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2594</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/13/00 6:34:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2594<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Borrowed People<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
Players In Riyadh<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
Re: Duck Dogers<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Borrowed People<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
Re: Borrowed People<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Borrowed People<BR>
Re: Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:43:32 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
This is mainly to Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
    I seem to have borrowed one of your characters for use in my Trinity<BR>
universe...What are your thoughts on that...<BR>
<BR>
To all the Listers...what are people's thoughts on this...Is I okay to<BR>
"borrow" people to populate a universe?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:22:00 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks" <BR>
<BR>
James Pearson" <james@pearson.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> The ship is required for the campaign.  The players are all agents <BR>
> for the AAB.  The scout ship is an advanced, deep exploration <BR>
> ship, with some additional weapons, jump capabilities, and a lab.<BR>
> At any rate, the general consensus seems to be to NOT require an <BR>
> expenditure of points for the ship since it is required for the <BR>
> campaign and will not (usually anyhow) be used for their own <BR>
> personal gain (like a Merchant ship which they might use to profit <BR>
> from).<BR>
> <BR>
> Now, the question is, since the AAB is their employer, and has <BR>
> "given" them a ship to use, should I instead charge my players for <BR>
> the cost of the AAB as a Patron?  Or just skip it all together?<BR>
<BR>
Give them the points to pay for the Patron for free. There<BR>
is no magic rule that says your campaign has to have 100 point <BR>
starting characters. You can also balanced the cost of the<BR>
AAB by giving the PC's disadvantages.<BR>
<BR>
I would say that the AAB is a "very powerful organization<BR>
(assets equal to at least a million times starting wealth)<BR>
and has a base cost of 25 points. Since the AAB supplies<BR>
equiptment worth more than ten times starting wealth (the<BR>
starship) which costs +10 points. For 35 points the charecter<BR>
get the AAB as a Patron on a 9-. Ignore the Ship Patron<BR>
Rules altogether.<BR>
<BR>
If you have decided that the whole campaign will center around<BR>
the AAB then the players duty will be on a 15- and be worth -15<BR>
points.<BR>
<BR>
You could also decide that all the players working for the AAB<BR>
have an Enemy (AAB rivals) that is a Large group (base cost<BR>
- -30 points) that appears on a 6- (half cost). Total Cost =<BR>
- -15 points.<BR>
<BR>
You decide that the AAB will only hire people that (According<BR>
to its psychological tests which are not 100% accurate) are reliable. <BR>
All PC's must take either a 5 point Sense of Duty (crew), a 5 point <BR>
Sense of Duty (the AAB) (althought this is arguably a 10 point Sense<BR>
of Duty), or a 5 point Secret (No Sense of Duty - if the Secret<BR>
is revealed the charecter will be fired).<BR>
<BR>
Thus you require all the players to take 35 points in<BR>
mandatory advantages and pay for them with 35 points in mandatory<BR>
disarvantages. It all balances out but you should still write<BR>
it on the charecter sheets.<BR>
<BR>
If this AAB job pays well you could also give each charecter<BR>
+10 points to spend on increasing their wealth levels<BR>
(Struggling to Base, Base to Comfortable, etc) and require them<BR>
to balance it out with other disadvantages.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:37:16 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Players In Riyadh<BR>
<BR>
Are there any traveller players in Riyadh, KSA?<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:02:49 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >What if two player characters are allies. Suppose that Susan<BR>
> >and Mike's charecters are newly married and that they are<BR>
> >almost always together. The GM says that both charecters have<BR>
> >to take each other as 100 point allies appearing on a 15-.<BR>
> >This costs 15 points (base of 5 x 3 for appears on a 15-).<BR>
<BR>
> Um... I suspect that you've completely missed the point of the Ally<BR>
> advantage. It's clearly stated that the advantage gives the player character<BR>
> an NPC ally.<BR>
<BR>
Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
Suppose that my character takes a NPC 100 point husband appearing <BR>
on a 15-. She has to pay 15 points for this advantage. By contrast <BR>
suppose that Bob and Sue decide that their 100 point player <BR>
characters are married and always together. They effectively<BR>
have the the same 100 point ally appearing on a 15- for free <BR>
that my charecter had to pay 15 points for. I think that this <BR>
is unjust and in violation of the stated GURPS rules (see<BR>
below). If the GURPS rules require me to pay for my charecters <BR>
advantage than so should Bob and Sue. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> >Than Susan and Mike's charecters both get 10 points of<BR>
> >'Ship Owner'. Now both charecters are 110 point characters.<BR>
> >Now their Ally advantage costs 30 points (base of 10 x3).<BR>
> >Susan and Mike are now 15 points in the hole. They are now<BR>
> >really 125 point characters.<BR>
 <BR>
> No they're not. They're actually 85 point characters without the 10 points<BR>
> in Shipowner and 95 point with the 10 points in Shipowner. The theory behind<BR>
> GURPS would indicate that these characters are underpowered in a campaign<BR>
> with 100 point characters. They have gotten no real advantage for the points<BR>
> that they spent, <BR>
<BR>
They have the same thing that my charecter had to pay 15 points<BR>
for, a 100 point Ally on a 15-. The only difference between<BR>
Sue's husband and my husband is that my NPC husband is played<BR>
by the GM and Sue's husband is played by Bob. If Bob quits the<BR>
campaign after a few weeks and Bob's charecter remains as an NPC<BR>
than there will be no difference between my charecter and Sue's.<BR>
Why on earth should Sue get an advantage I had to pay 15 points <BR>
for for free? <BR>
<BR>
> >(Some GM's might say that PC allies<BR>
> >don't have to be paid for. I disagree since PC's can become<BR>
> >NPC's when the other player doesn't show and you do have to pay<BR>
> >for NPC allies.)<BR>
<BR>
> Then you're being unreasonable and you're actively breaking the system by<BR>
> not taking into account how the system was meant to be used. Anybody who<BR>
> knew GURPS before going into your campaign would be unlikely to play after<BR>
> such a stunt. Anybody who learned what GURPS was about after starting to<BR>
> play would feel like you were actively trying to screw them over by<BR>
> underpowering their character.<BR>
<BR>
Assumes facts not in evidence. I don't think you know what<BR>
"Anybody who knew GURPS" would feel. If you do know this them<BR>
please prove it by citing a survey that interviewed every person<BR>
who has ever played GURPS and is verified as 100% accurate or<BR>
demonstrate your global range Telepathy power.<BR>
<BR>
If you were to say that "Many people who knew GURPS" would<BR>
feel that this was a stunt you might well be right. However<BR>
all this would mean is that those other GURPS players were<BR>
wrongly reading stated GURPS design. (see below)<BR>
<BR>
So you are saying that GURPS is specifically designed to give<BR>
an unfair advantage to player charecters by giving them free<BR>
Allies that NPC's would have to pay points for? This is not<BR>
how I read GURPS, which clearly states:<BR>
<BR>
"Skills and Advantages cost points." "The GURPS system is<BR>
balanced. All 100 point charecters start off "equivalent,"<BR>
though not the same."<BR>
<BR>
GURPS 3rd Ed Rev p 11. (Character Creation)<BR>
<BR>
To me this clearly establishes the base design intent of the<BR>
GURPS system. I believe that allowing PC's to take other<BR>
PC's as free allies is an abuse of the stated intent of<BR>
the GURPS system. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> >Moreover I think that 100 point PC's ought to be balanced with<BR>
> >100 point NPC's. Once the PC's have the ship they are suddenly<BR>
> >115 point PC's because they have something (the ship) that<BR>
> >the NPC's do not.<BR>
<BR>
> Then you misunderstand why the point system is there at all.<BR>
<BR>
To balance all characters, both PC's and NPC's.<BR>
<BR>
The text clearly states, as I quoted above "All 100 point charecters <BR>
start off "equivalent," though not the same." It does not say<BR>
that "All 100 point _player_ charecters start off "equivalent"..." <BR>
it says that "All _charecters_" start off "equivalent"...." Non <BR>
player charecters are charecters and as such they are bound by <BR>
this basic statement of GURPS design philosophy. YMMV but if this <BR>
is not the explicit intent of GURPS why would it say _all_ characters? <BR>
<BR>
> >Personally I would probably tell the players to take their<BR>
> >100 point charecter sheets and add 15 points of the Ship Owner<BR>
> >disadvantage and balance it with a 15 point Secret Disadvantage,<BR>
> >(GT Comp I p 75). once the Pc's discovered who their 10 point<BR>
> >enemy was the disadvantage would no longer be secret and the<BR>
> >PC's would have to pay the 5 points.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, I don't see the point here, actually. <BR>
<BR>
To balance the charecter sheets of course.<BR>
<BR>
> If it works for you, go for it.<BR>
> On the other hand, character balance is a real minefield of problems. Pay<BR>
> attention to what you're doing, because you may have to undo it or change it<BR>
> later.<BR>
<BR>
I have thought about it ahead of time and I see it as the clear<BR>
stated design intent of GURPS to balance all 100 point characters.<BR>
To allow players to egregiously abuse that stated design intent would <BR>
be a mockery of the whole system. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
For this reason I require that Dependent NPC's must take, and<BR>
pay full point cost for, the Player Charecter as an Ally or<BR>
Patron (depending on the PC's point total and relative point<BR>
total), otherwise they are not balanced with other non Dependant<BR>
NPC charecters of the same point total.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:13:56 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 1:16:pm<BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 11-06-00 6:43:45 PM CST,<BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> Marvin is my favorite WB character :  )<BR>
><BR>
> LKW<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ditto, and he lives on top of my monitor with his dog, and a jar of instant<BR>
Martians!<BR>
<BR>
He was voted in '97 as being the #3 most popular cartoon character in<BR>
Australia, I don't know where he currently stands?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:24:34 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: James Pearson <james@pearson.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 7:06:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Loren,<BR>
><BR>
> What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?<BR>
> Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on<BR>
> the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
<BR>
This sounds agreeable to me, I prefer square grids, but know others don't,<BR>
so this idea would work for everyone??<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:33:25 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:40:pm<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:06 PM 6/12/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >Loren,<BR>
> ><BR>
> >What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?   <BR>
> >Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on <BR>
> >the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
> <BR>
> Now *there's* an idea!  Two clear overlays, one hex, one square grid, so<BR>
> you can use the deckplans as simple decoration or for detailed combat<BR>
> resolution, using your favorite Traveller close combat system. :)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
LOL!  That plug didn't even occur to me ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:15:43 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
... I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
>both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to come<BR>
>up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
<BR>
  As a possible suggestion, how about a faint 1.5 meter square grid<BR>
and two ~8"x10" over-lay sheets per deckplan set? The square grid<BR>
would be adequate for non-GURPS play, and would provide a superior<BR>
"playing surface" for non-combat encounters using GURPS rules - the<BR>
over-lay could be deployed when the ref sees fit.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:49:47 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This is mainly to Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
>     I seem to have borrowed one of your characters for use in my Trinity<BR>
> universe...What are your thoughts on that...<BR>
><BR>
> To all the Listers...what are people's thoughts on this...Is I okay to<BR>
> "borrow" people to populate a universe?<BR>
<BR>
WHAT......<BR>
<BR>
You mean....<BR>
<BR>
Hell every Gm does it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:21:01 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Loren,<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that plastic overlays would be prohibitively expensive...<BR>
<BR>
A couple of suggestions:<BR>
<BR>
1) use a staggered square grid -- effectively the same as a hex grid <BR>
- -- designed in such a way that it could also be used as a regular <BR>
square grid.  Perhaps every second row of squares would be dived in <BR>
half by a lighter halftone line, thus completing the regular square <BR>
grid;<BR>
<BR>
2) use a square grid, plus an implied hex grid made up of small dots <BR>
(perhaps in another color), such as that used by Rob Prior on his <BR>
color tiles of the Shadows pyramid.  The dots are placed at each <BR>
corner of each hex.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
<BR>
  + GMG +<BR>
- -- <BR>
                Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net><BR>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>
           Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant<BR>
   ++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:45:00 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
<BR>
Ah yes, the great and glorious Drop Tank debates! If I understand<BR>
correctly, this is an old and venerable Traveller tradition; when<BR>
things are going a little slow, mention "Drop Tanks" and watch the<BR>
flames rise high. At least in this discussion, nobody has complained<BR>
(yet) "Why can't we feed the drive and drop the tank *before* we<BR>
jump?" but that doesn't seem to have made much difference in the<BR>
volume and bitterness of the arguments on <rec.games.frp.gurps>.<BR>
<BR>
What everyone seems to be forgetting is that every game is the GM's<BR>
game. If the GM wants to be traditional and eschew drop tanks, s/he<BR>
can dream up any kind of technobabble justification required and<BR>
declare it a house rule. The same goes for GMs that *want* to use<BR>
them. The players can debate this until the ponis come home, but<BR>
once the GM takes his/her seat, the debate ends and the game begins.<BR>
<BR>
That said, let me address a slightly different issue (and hopefully<BR>
draw a little fire away from the D-tanks debate). A detachable<BR>
external tank is a useful thing to have even if you aren't using it<BR>
to extend your ship's range by leaving it behind. If you plan to<BR>
only visit worlds with in-space refueling capability or have such<BR>
capability on-board, a ship divided into a unstreamlined external<BR>
fuel tank and a streamlined landing craft will have a larger usable<BR>
internal volume by 20 percent of tank volume. (If the ship is J4 or<BR>
greater, even with a parsec of emergency tankage in the lander there<BR>
is room for additional payload.)<BR>
<BR>
As I mentioned in a previous post, the tank could be left in space<BR>
to be refilled and towed to the outbound jump point (not necessarily<BR>
in that order) while the lander went dirtside to deliver and pickup<BR>
cargo. Unlike "drop" tanks, the external tank is custom designed as<BR>
a integral part of a particular ship class, and cannot be exchanged<BR>
with those from other classes. (A marketing ploy to lock the ship<BR>
owner into buying "manufacturer" parts over generic versions.) As<BR>
such it may even have an imbedded transponder to help identify its<BR>
owner and track its movements.<BR>
<BR>
I won't even touch the budget non-standard materials question. There<BR>
is a whole website devoted to alternative low-cost ship construction<BR>
based on the premise that the savings from using cheaper materials<BR>
will more than offset the cost of the thrusters to lift additional<BR>
mass. Besides, the whole issue hinges on the use of GURPS Vehicles<BR>
2nd Edition, and the old guard would object "It's Nae Traveller!" If<BR>
you want my thoughts on the subject, please ask and I shall post.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |   Mick Jagger persuades Scrooge and my helmet.   |<BR>
              |                      FNORD!                      |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:19:30 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
Well...puts writers hat on...<BR>
<BR>
Fine, if its for gaming purposes I'm more flattered<BR>
than anything else.<BR>
<BR>
If it was for commercial publication the Publisher<BR>
and/or my agent might have something<BR>
to say about it depending on what level of publication<BR>
it was (fanszine to major release).<BR>
<BR>
Either way I'm still flattered.<BR>
<BR>
Besides anyone who has read my stuff knows that I'm not<BR>
beyond 'paying homage' to other people's work.<BR>
<BR>
Which character(s) are you using.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 5:43 AM<BR>
Subject: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> This is mainly to Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
>     I seem to have borrowed one of your characters<BR>
for use in my Trinity<BR>
> universe...What are your thoughts on that...<BR>
><BR>
> To all the Listers...what are people's thoughts on<BR>
this...Is I okay to<BR>
> "borrow" people to populate a universe?<BR>
><BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:25:39 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>5. The ships lifts are made by the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation...;-)<BR>
<BR>
You know you're heading into danger when all the ship's lifts<BR>
go and hide in engineering!<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:00:09 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>No. The school bully is not the legitimate ruler of the schoolyard...<BR>
> <BR>
>The Emperor of the Ziru Sirka was _originally_ the chairman of the board<BR>
>of the three corporate bureaux who had combined to run the fledgeling<BR>
>Vilani Empire for their profit.<BR>
><BR>
>It was a cartel, pure and simple, the Emperor was _originally_ the<BR>
>elected (by the cartel heads, that is) leader of the Cartel. <BR>
><BR>
>Later it became a hereditary position as the Vilani Empire crystallized<BR>
>into it's rigid caste system.<BR>
><BR>
>The Bureaux derived _their_ legitimacy from the fact that it was _their_<BR>
>ships, _their_ factories, _their_ trade routes, _their_ commerce to<BR>
>rule. They had eliminated the competition.<BR>
 <BR>
And the Terran Confederation ruled the former 1st Imperium by right of<BR>
conquest while Hiroshi I ruled both by right of fleet control. And Cleon<BR>
derived his right to all the worlds of the 1st and 2nd Imperiums from the<BR>
fact that the ruler of one of the last _fragments_ of the RoM to still<BR>
claim the title of emperor had moved the capital (of that particular<BR>
fragment) to Sylea 1500 years earlier.<BR>
<BR>
Though perhaps his fleets did have a _teeny_ bit to do with it too?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
  "We're Space Marines! We're glorious we're steadfast, brave and true!<BR>
  So don't you dirtbags mess with us, or this is what we'll do!<BR>
	 <BR>
  We'll nick your dogs,we'll nuke your schools, we'll stretch you on a rack!<BR>
  We'll borrow all your garden tools and never give them back!<BR>
<BR>
  We are the bold marines of space, we wade through gore and grue.<BR>
  And if we do not like your face, then this is what we'll do:<BR>
<BR>
  We'll sneer ad spit and call you names, tip napalm down your shirt.<BR>
  Your vest will be consumed by flames, and that will really hurt!"	<BR>
	 <BR>
				--- "DR and Quinch get drafted" from 2000 AD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:59:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>No.  The school bully is not the legitimate ruler of the<BR>
>schoolyard, although he may in fact get whatever he wants.<BR>
>Legitimate means in accordance with law or accepted as<BR>
>correct and proper.  I've written in the past about a<BR>
>social contract among the emperor, the nobility, and the<BR>
>member states of the Imperium.  That seems to me to be the<BR>
>only basis upon which the governed agree to be governed.<BR>
>There is no mandate of heaven in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see, the first governments were the biggest & badest mofo out there<BR>
telling people what to do.  He in time became the legitimate ruler of those<BR>
people.  Much like the 1I became the legitimate ruler of all those worlds,<BR>
because they wrote the laws.<BR>
    All governments can trace their foundation to the biggest & badest mofo<BR>
out there.  The Current English Queen can trace her government back to<BR>
William the Conquer.  And, what did William do to gain his crown, invade &<BR>
take over England.<BR>
    in time it does evolve into a social contract, but one that if forced<BR>
upon the people.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:18:52 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well...puts writers hat on...<BR>
><BR>
> Fine, if its for gaming purposes I'm more flattered<BR>
> than anything else.<BR>
><BR>
> If it was for commercial publication the Publisher<BR>
> and/or my agent might have something<BR>
> to say about it depending on what level of publication<BR>
> it was (fanszine to major release).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Website...does this count?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Either way I'm still flattered.<BR>
><BR>
> Besides anyone who has read my stuff knows that I'm not<BR>
> beyond 'paying homage' to other people's work.<BR>
><BR>
> Which character(s) are you using.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The Angel Maxine...as the PC's not-so-immediate superior...as a Deus Ex<BR>
etc force with not so surplus military surplus...saving PC butts then<BR>
kicking them when necessary...lost her sight in the Rockwar from a too<BR>
close experience with a fusion pulse charge...still blind, using suit<BR>
sensors in combat...lotsa other details...<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, the maitainence crew pop up from time to time as well...<grin><BR>
<BR>
What are Kaidatu's stats?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:48:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
<BR>
>And the Terran Confederation ruled the former 1st Imperium by right of<BR>
>conquest while Hiroshi I ruled both by right of fleet control. And Cleon<BR>
>derived his right to all the worlds of the 1st and 2nd Imperiums from the<BR>
>fact that the ruler of one of the last _fragments_ of the RoM to still<BR>
>claim the title of emperor had moved the capital (of that particular<BR>
>fragment) to Sylea 1500 years earlier.<BR>
><BR>
>Though perhaps his fleets did have a _teeny_ bit to do with it too?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, the fact that the Fleets can nuke you back before the Stone Age<BR>
might help.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:52:17 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12-06-00 6:18:00 PM CST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?   <BR>
>  Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on <BR>
>  the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
$$$$$$$$<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:54:26 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12-06-00 6:18:00 PM CST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> but as Loren was comparing 4 sheets for $19.95 and 14<BR>
>  sheets for $22.95,<BR>
<BR>
8 sheets for $19.95<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:09:29 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12-06-00 10:37:55 PM CST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Loren, have you considered leaving both hexgrids and square grids off<BR>
>  > the plans altogether and including transparent overlays of each with<BR>
>  > the packet?  It would only require that all the plans in the packet<BR>
>  > be to the same scale.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  I second this notion. I know of no gamer who can't use more hex/square<BR>
>  overlay sheets. <BR>
<BR>
- - Overlay couldn't be folded, which would mean we'd have to ship the product <BR>
rolled and retail stores aren't set up to display stuff that way (they might <BR>
take some, but they'd not be with the rest of the SJ Games products, which <BR>
means buyers would have to ask for them -- not conducive to good sales <BR>
figures).<BR>
<BR>
- - Two overlays would mean we'd have to charge _considerably_ more for the <BR>
product, especialy in the quantities we're planning. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:30:02 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Loren wrote:<BR>
> - Overlay couldn't be folded, which would mean we'd have to<BR>
>   ship the product rolled and retail stores aren't set up to<BR>
>   display stuff that way (they might take some, but they'd not<BR>
>   be with the rest of the SJ Games products, which means buyers<BR>
>   would have to ask for them -- not conducive to good sales<BR>
>   figures).<BR>
> <BR>
> - Two overlays would mean we'd have to charge _considerably_<BR>
>   more for the product, especialy in the quantities we're<BR>
>   planning. <BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, you could sell the overlays as  a  separate  product.  That<BR>
way if there are multiple packets then people only  need  to  buy<BR>
one overlay and the packet price remains close to what  you  were<BR>
intending.  Additionally, if the packet cover is emblazoned  with<BR>
a "this product works best with an overlay" message of some  kind<BR>
then people  know  to  ask  for  them  ...  leaving  the  packets<BR>
themselves with the other products where they are visible.  (I am<BR>
assuming that its the  packets,  not  the  overlays,  which  will<BR>
attract sales.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:34:13 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:32:54 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA31559;<BR>
	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:31:41 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:31:19 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA31518<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:31:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:31:19 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006131331.JAA31518@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2595</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/13/00 9:25:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2595<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Duck Dogers<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Throne?<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Throne?<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:41:25 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond writes:<BR>
>>>two-color, but we are looking at packing them in a ziplock bag with a<BR>
>>>full-color cover sheet (front and back). I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
>>>both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to<BR>
>>Loren, have you considered leaving both hexgrids and square grids off<BR>
>>the plans altogether and including transparent overlays of each with<BR>
>>the packet?  It would only require that all the plans in the packet<BR>
>>be to the same scale.<BR>
>Yeah, James Pearson has also suggested this. However, two transparent<BR>
>plastic overlays would add considerably to the costs (I'd have<BR>
>thought...clear plastic sheets always seem to much more expensive than<BR>
>paper) and limit action to the area of the one overlay.<BR>
<BR>
	The cost factor has to be a concern, though I would be happy to pay<BR>
	a little extra for the transparent overlays myself.  If someone<BR>
	wants more than one overlay, any good copy shop should be able to<BR>
	make copies.<BR>
<BR>
>Now my suggestion is to backprint the plans with one side being the hex<BR>
>version and the other being the square. Back printing shouldn't add too much<BR>
>to the costs, and allows you to lay out larger ships at once, with grids<BR>
>covering all areas at once.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	This is a viable alternative, though a second deckplan could be put on<BR>
	the back if overlays were employed.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:48:44 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm, you could sell the overlays as  a  separate  product.<BR>
<BR>
    But why should SJG bother?  Last time I checked, there was a company<BR>
called Chessex that produced something called the Battlemat...which is<BR>
available in hex or square grids in a "clear" color (among others).  It's a<BR>
heck of a lot more durable than any flimsy overlays would be, and comes in<BR>
large and "has anyone seen the table?" sizes.  They're still in business,<BR>
aren't they?<BR>
    Who knows, Chessex might pay SJG a nominal advertising fee just for<BR>
recommending said product in the deckplan documentation.<BR>
    And SJG could add a "reference dot" on the deckplans to indicate the best<BR>
place to line up the preferred grid. (g)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:50:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Loren wrote:<BR>
> Any who think this is a good idea, and would like to suggest<BR>
> other subjects for subsequent packets should e-mail me at<BR>
> lkw@io.com. I'm trying to guess what demand might be . . .<BR>
<snip><BR>
> P.S.: AHL on this scale would need 14 sheets, so we'd have to<BR>
> charge more like $22+ for that one, if, as, and when. I haven't<BR>
> scaled out a Broadsword, Tigress, or anything else yet.<BR>
<BR>
While I like the Pacman-esque Tigress, a Plankwell  might  be  an<BR>
easier shape to do.  But I suspect either  would  be  a  bit  too<BR>
large (I'm guessing you were joking, too).   However,  a  Ghalalk<BR>
class Armoured Cruiser would be excellent: I need an  alternative<BR>
'big ship' to the AHL, and the Ghalalk  (as  a  ubiquitous  fleet<BR>
workhorse) would be an ideal choice.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally,  non-starship  locations  would   be   useful   for<BR>
subsequent packets: bar, customs point in a  starport  concourse,<BR>
floor of a generic flop-house,  air/raft  rental  agency,  ground<BR>
vehicle port on a sealed dome, Duke  Norris's  audience  chamber,<BR>
high-port docking  station,  the  Imperial  throne  room,  Prince<BR>
Varian's quarters, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:15:07 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com [mailto:GDWGAMES@aol.com]<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:54 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 12-06-00 6:18:00 PM CST, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > but as Loren was comparing 4 sheets for $19.95 and 14<BR>
> >  sheets for $22.95,<BR>
> <BR>
> 8 sheets for $19.95<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
Doh! Of course, Beowulf & Marava *each* at 4 sheets... 8 sheets total<BR>
for $19.95. An even better bargain!<BR>
<BR>
Are these already intended to be backprinted, or just single-sided<BR>
sheets? If you can't find a way to superimpose the two grids on the one<BR>
deckplan, and the backs *are* currently blank, then I still prefer<BR>
back-to-back deckplans, one hex and one square.<BR>
<BR>
However, I seem to be a voice in the wilderness here, as everyone else<BR>
seems to prefer a transparent overlay. I can't help thinking that this<BR>
will dramatically increase the production costs, compared to simply<BR>
backprinting/increasing the number of sheets.<BR>
<BR>
Needless to say, I'll buy either version <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:32:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
At 04:59 AM 6/13/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    All governments can trace their foundation to the biggest & badest mofo<BR>
>out there.  The Current English Queen can trace her government back to<BR>
>William the Conquer.  And, what did William do to gain his crown, invade &<BR>
>take over England.<BR>
<BR>
Except of course, for our country, which wasn't that big or bad, but had<BR>
the advantage of having friends in high places and hitting England when<BR>
they had other concerns.<BR>
<BR>
The current, democratically-elected of the Philippines also does not fit<BR>
this mode.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:37:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers<BR>
<BR>
At 04:13 PM 6/13/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>He was voted in '97 as being the #3 most popular cartoon character in<BR>
>Australia, I don't know where he currently stands?<BR>
<BR>
In San Jose, Ca.  One of my friends has the Marvin Martian costume, down to<BR>
the oversized helmet.<BR>
<BR>
I'll see if they have any photos.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:47:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    All governments can trace their foundation to the biggest & badest<BR>
mofo<BR>
>>out there.  The Current English Queen can trace her government back to<BR>
>>William the Conquer.  And, what did William do to gain his crown, invade &<BR>
>>take over England.<BR>
><BR>
>Except of course, for our country, which wasn't that big or bad, but had<BR>
>the advantage of having friends in high places and hitting England when<BR>
>they had other concerns.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Hey, George Washington was a pretty big & bad mofo.  Doug, I know I<BR>
would not want to face him, even with your Mega-Penguin Man-Portable Cannon.<BR>
<BR>
>The current, democratically-elected of the Philippines also does not fit<BR>
>this mode.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course not, it is democratically-elected.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:41:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 08:52 AM 6/13/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 12-06-00 6:18:00 PM CST, <BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?   <BR>
>>  Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on <BR>
>>  the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
>>  <BR>
><BR>
>$$$$$$$$<BR>
<BR>
If that is the case, then might I suggest a very faint grid, so that those<BR>
of use who want overlays won't be dealing with a bunch of conflicting lines?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:52:36 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design<BR>
<BR>
I think you are missing a point here, Peter. Points are paid for special<BR>
relationships like Ally, yes. But no generic system I've ever seen forces<BR>
the PC to pay for positive relationships with other PCs. I've seen<BR>
disadvantages like rivalry between PCs but never anything that encourages<BR>
cooperation, which most RPG situations should do anyway (otherwise, why<BR>
would the characters associate in the first place?). The points have to be<BR>
paid when there is the possibility of bringing in OUTSIDE assistance to the<BR>
PC group under the control of the GM (where there is bound to be<BR>
omniscience-leak from time to time).<BR>
If you want to look at it another way, an Ally advantage is a way of having<BR>
help whose availability is based on a mechanical process, a die roll, while<BR>
any relationship with another PC is based on the interaction of the players<BR>
and availability of help is based on how well the player can convice the<BR>
other player to agree to his plan. And I don't think a PC should have to pay<BR>
for that.<BR>
The way you seem to be looking at it, all PCs should be taking Ally<BR>
advantages for the other PCs, after all, they closely cooperate and are<BR>
generally  together in an adventure. I'm reasonably certain that's not the<BR>
intent, but then I've been playing with generic systems since Champions<BR>
first debuted.<BR>
If you want to make sure your player cough up the Ally advantage for each PC<BR>
in the party they cooperate with, that's your business but I wouldn't<BR>
recommend it.<BR>
<BR>
As far as points being carefully accounted for with NPCs, whoever said that<BR>
the balanced points for PCs was to ensure that there was roughly equal<BR>
'screen time' is probably correct to a degree. The point balance of the PCs<BR>
is also a tool for the GM to use in balancing opponents to the PC group. But<BR>
if the GM just kind of cribs up the NPCs main skills and lumps together some<BR>
disadvantage points as Villain Bonus (like in Hero), that's certainly<BR>
reasonable (and, I would argue, the GM's right). The nitty-gritty<BR>
bookkeeping of the game is secondary to the play. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:02:49 -0800<BR>
	From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
	Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
	Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
	<snip><BR>
	Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
	contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
	Suppose that my character takes a NPC 100 point husband appearing <BR>
	on a 15-. She has to pay 15 points for this advantage. By contrast <BR>
	suppose that Bob and Sue decide that their 100 point player <BR>
	characters are married and always together. They effectively<BR>
	have the the same 100 point ally appearing on a 15- for free <BR>
	that my charecter had to pay 15 points for. I think that this <BR>
	is unjust and in violation of the stated GURPS rules (see<BR>
	below). If the GURPS rules require me to pay for my charecters <BR>
	advantage than so should Bob and Sue. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
	<snip><BR>
	They have the same thing that my charecter had to pay 15 points<BR>
	for, a 100 point Ally on a 15-. The only difference between<BR>
	Sue's husband and my husband is that my NPC husband is played<BR>
	by the GM and Sue's husband is played by Bob. If Bob quits the<BR>
	campaign after a few weeks and Bob's charecter remains as an NPC<BR>
	than there will be no difference between my charecter and Sue's.<BR>
	Why on earth should Sue get an advantage I had to pay 15 points <BR>
	for for free? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:52:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
> Are these already intended to be backprinted, or just single-<BR>
> sided sheets? If you can't find a way to superimpose the two<BR>
> grids on the one deckplan, and the backs *are* currently blank,<BR>
> then I still prefer back-to-back deckplans, one hex and one<BR>
> square.<BR>
<BR>
One small request: if the plans are  backprinted  with  different<BR>
plans please make them for a  different  ship.  What  I  mean  is<BR>
don't put deck A on one side and deck B of the same ship  on  the<BR>
back of the same sheet.  Usually when I  use  plans  I  can  have<BR>
action on multiple decks of a ship simultaneously.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:27:20 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 7:50 AM -0600 6/13/0, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
>Loren wrote:<BR>
>> Any who think this is a good idea, and would like to suggest<BR>
>> other subjects for subsequent packets should e-mail me at<BR>
>> lkw@io.com. I'm trying to guess what demand might be . . .<BR>
><snip><BR>
>> P.S.: AHL on this scale would need 14 sheets, so we'd have to<BR>
>> charge more like $22+ for that one, if, as, and when. I haven't<BR>
>> scaled out a Broadsword, Tigress, or anything else yet.<BR>
><BR>
>While I like the Pacman-esque Tigress, a Plankwell  might  be  an<BR>
>easier shape to do.  But I suspect either  would  be  a  bit  too<BR>
>large (I'm guessing you were joking, too).   However,  a  Ghalalk<BR>
>class Armoured Cruiser would be excellent: I need an  alternative<BR>
>'big ship' to the AHL, and the Ghalalk  (as  a  ubiquitous  fleet<BR>
>workhorse) would be an ideal choice.<BR>
><BR>
>Additionally,  non-starship  locations  would   be   useful   for<BR>
>subsequent packets: bar, customs point in a  starport  concourse,<BR>
>floor of a generic flop-house,  air/raft  rental  agency,  ground<BR>
>vehicle port on a sealed dome, Duke  Norris's  audience  chamber,<BR>
>high-port docking  station,  the  Imperial  throne  room,  Prince<BR>
>Varian's quarters, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Prince Varian's quarters -- what kind of campaign do _you_ run?<BR>
<BR>
:  )<BR>
<BR>
I neglected to mention that non-starship plans are on the list for<BR>
consideration, and I am soliciting suggestions for those as well.<BR>
<BR>
I have asked for a cost study of printing the sheets on both sides, square<BR>
grind on one side, hexes on the other.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:38:53 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > 'course, the obious alternative (assuming you're using direct fire<BR>
> > weapons) is to incresae muzzle velocity. The round'll be detected at the<BR>
> > same distance from the target, but since it'll be going faster the PD<BR>
> > will have less tiem to react. Double the speed, half the reaction time.<BR>
> <BR>
> Only in *direct fire* mode. In *indirect fire* mode, increasing the<BR>
> velocity actually *increases* the flight time, because to hit a given<BR>
> point you have to fire at a steeper angle as the velocity increases.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard - I know that. I'm an engineer who works in the military sphere.<BR>
That's why I included my assumption.<BR>
<BR>
NB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:43:06 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
> contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
<BR>
Eris, get a bottle of champagne. Truly it is a great day for Heresy!<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:46:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Throne?<BR>
<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>Of course, the 3I absolutely *loves* the various<BR>
>loonies who claim to be the True Emperor, because<BR>
>their ludicrous claims can be used to cast doubt upon<BR>
>the semi-legit pretenders.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, not only that, it also gives the Navy & Marines a chance to do some<BR>
training.  *weg*<BR>
    "Boys, we have a major nutjob saying he is the True Emperor, & well we<BR>
need to take care of the problem."<BR>
<BR>
>I doubt that the semi-legit types would be that easily<BR>
>taken out... remember that they'd have their followers<BR>
>too. All Imperial personnel swear to serve the<BR>
>Emperor, but what if they decide that the pretender's<BR>
>the Emperor? It seems that given Imperial history the<BR>
>Emperor is only Emperor as long as s/he/it commands<BR>
>the loyalty of the armed forces. An Emperor who pisses<BR>
>off the Navy, for example, is just begging for another<BR>
>Civil War... (Is this what happened in the Rebellion?<BR>
>I don't have MegaTraveller.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct.  But, the Emperor is the guy on the Iridum Throne.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:46:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Throne?<BR>
<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>Of course, the 3I absolutely *loves* the various<BR>
>loonies who claim to be the True Emperor, because<BR>
>their ludicrous claims can be used to cast doubt upon<BR>
>the semi-legit pretenders.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, not only that, it also gives the Navy & Marines a chance to do some<BR>
training.  *weg*<BR>
    "Boys, we have a major nutjob saying he is the True Emperor, & well we<BR>
need to take care of the problem."<BR>
<BR>
>I doubt that the semi-legit types would be that easily<BR>
>taken out... remember that they'd have their followers<BR>
>too. All Imperial personnel swear to serve the<BR>
>Emperor, but what if they decide that the pretender's<BR>
>the Emperor? It seems that given Imperial history the<BR>
>Emperor is only Emperor as long as s/he/it commands<BR>
>the loyalty of the armed forces. An Emperor who pisses<BR>
>off the Navy, for example, is just begging for another<BR>
>Civil War... (Is this what happened in the Rebellion?<BR>
>I don't have MegaTraveller.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct.  But, the Emperor is the guy on the Iridum Throne.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:13:41 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Overlay couldn't be folded, which would mean we'd have to ship the product<BR>
> rolled and retail stores aren't set up to display stuff that way (they might<BR>
> take some, but they'd not be with the rest of the SJ Games products, which<BR>
> means buyers would have to ask for them -- not conducive to good sales<BR>
> figures).<BR>
<BR>
I inferred from your previous post that the folded size is<BR>
about 8.5" x 11" (17" x 22" folded twice).  If that is correct,<BR>
have you looked at the cost for a rigid (not rolled) clear<BR>
hex/grid sheet that is 8" x 10"?  That would fit into the same<BR>
package with no rolling or folding.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:22:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>
> > > I don't know many men who are willing to take that much <BR>
> of a backseat<BR>
> > > role.  <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Quite a broad brush there, not necessarily wrong, but broad.<BR>
> > <BR>
> Hey, you saw "I don't know" in there didn't you?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I did.  I understand, but, especially speaking as a member of the male side of the species, I just don't like having to admit that that statement is true.  I mean, I know that most men are pond scum (and many of us *like* it), but I also like to think that us male-type people don't have a monopoly on it,and with 3000 years more of practice, maybe we will have bubbled up to the surface.<BR>
<BR>
> You're absolutely correct, but a lot of people are scared off just by<BR>
> confidence alone, let alone Imperium-spanning power.<BR>
<BR>
Although this is true, I never could understand it.  Why would anyone *want* to spend time with those that aren't competent, much less be scared off by it?<BR>
<BR>
I find myself in an atypical situation.  All of the women in my family are quite strong and competent, so I was raised in the atmosphere that this was 'normal'.  It was quite a shocker when I realized that not all women are like that.  I have been called 'too demanding' in some of my relationships due to the fact that I can't tolerate stupidity (or, more commonly, the facade of stupidity many women feel they have to assume) gracefully.<BR>
<BR>
> > Besides, what about Margaret Thatcher husband, Denis?  I've never<BR>
> > heard it said that he wasn't confident (artillery major and on the<BR>
> > board of a major corporation), but he certainly took the 'backseat<BR>
> > role' during her years as PM.  How many people know who he is?  How<BR>
> > many people even know Margaret Thatcher *is* married?<BR>
> ><BR>
> That's very true-- but I wonder what he would have been like <BR>
> during times<BR>
> as turbulent as those we are discussing.<BR>
<BR>
He did quite well during the Falklands blow up.  Of course, that isn't even close to the probs seen during the Civil War times, but I have noticed that desperate times tend to bring out the best and worse in people.  I doubt that Arbellatra would be involved with someone who wouldn't rise to the challenge.<BR>
<BR>
> > Cause you'd march in from the borders and take over.<BR>
> > <BR>
> Damn straight I would!<BR>
<BR>
See? It's attitude like that that I respect. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> I don't think it's just that.  There is something that <BR>
> happens inside of<BR>
> my head when I'm profoundly sexually satisfied with someone (it hasn't<BR>
> happened in anywhere close to ALL my relationships ^_-) that <BR>
> just makes me<BR>
> gooey.  It muddles my thinking and makes me feel very content <BR>
> and "fat" on<BR>
> an emotional level, almost complacent, and I feel rather <BR>
> yielding toward<BR>
> the person who has made me feel this way.  Even when they're <BR>
> as dumb as<BR>
> Hiroshi was capable of being sometimes.  (You know he was <BR>
> dumb, he left<BR>
> ME!)<BR>
<BR>
It's not just societal norms, but it is much more acceptable for women to act upon those desires and many men actually enjoy and encourage it.  It gives them a feeling of power and control and there are those that will seek out women with such feelings and use it against them.  I've seen this in many women that I know, and it seems that the more intelligent, aggressive, and competent the women are the more common it is.  I think part of it is the fact that in order to be an intelligent, competent woman in today's society you almost can't show any weaknesses, and the desire to succumb to that 'warm' feeling manifests itself in the place where it should be save to feel it.  My wife has this in varying degrees, and it can drive me nuts sometimes, especially when I ask her for advice and help.  It's taken years for us to understand and work around it, but sometimes she feels the need to just wallow in it.<BR>
<BR>
> And I really think it'll be a long time before society has <BR>
> changed enough<BR>
> that we have any way to know how much of this is <BR>
> conditioning, how much is<BR>
> biological, and how the synergistic effect of the two mesh <BR>
> (because I hate<BR>
> to say this, but we wouldn't evolve the kinds of societies we <BR>
> have if they<BR>
> weren't at some point in time effective).<BR>
<BR>
True, very true.  Men and women *are* different, in so many ways.<BR>
<BR>
> > But is it so unbelievable that a strong, confident woman, who can<BR>
> > conquer an empire, might also have such a relationship?  It's<BR>
> > certainly happening today - even with the cultural baggage both men<BR>
> > and women are subject too.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not unbelievable, but hard to figure out how it happened.<BR>
<BR>
I'd have to disagree with that.  Arbellatra isn't a standard-issue woman.  She wouldn't be attracted to standard-issue men.  Therefore, if she was married (and I use that term in the meaning of 'a committed, long-term relationship') it would be to a non standard-issue man.<BR>
 <BR>
> And in any event, if her spouse wasn't mentioned in canon, I <BR>
> see no reason<BR>
> to assume that she had one just because she had children. <BR>
<BR>
That is true, as Norris has shown us.  But after reading copious amounts about the live of Lady Thatcher (*you* try marrying a PhD candidate in political science and not get swept up in it), I can count on my fingers the number of times her husband was mentioned.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.<BR>
<BR>
> Your wife only screwed up ONCE.  I've managed to pull it off <BR>
> three times<BR>
> with legal papers and several more without.  <BR>
<BR>
It doesn't have to have be legal to be considered a 'screw-up'.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm not done with<BR>
> relationships, mind you-- I have too much of a physical drive <BR>
> for that ^_*<BR>
> and I'm way too romantic to settle for just sex forever.  It's even<BR>
> possible that someone could talk me into marrying again. But <BR>
> they'd have<BR>
> to have one hell of an unbeatable argument!<BR>
<BR>
My wife used to think like that.  It took her almost ten years to change her mind, and that was with me working with her for almost four of those years.<BR>
<BR>
I figure Arbellatra took quite a while to find someone, also (assuming that she did).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:22:35 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Loren Wiseman [mailto:lkw@io.com]<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 5:27 PM<BR>
> To: Trevor, Peter; 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 7:50 AM -0600 6/13/0, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> >Loren wrote:<BR>
> >> Any who think this is a good idea, and would like to suggest<BR>
> >> other subjects for subsequent packets should e-mail me at<BR>
> >> lkw@io.com. I'm trying to guess what demand might be . . .<BR>
> ><snip><BR>
> >> P.S.: AHL on this scale would need 14 sheets, so we'd have to<BR>
> >> charge more like $22+ for that one, if, as, and when. I haven't<BR>
> >> scaled out a Broadsword, Tigress, or anything else yet.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >While I like the Pacman-esque Tigress, a Plankwell  might  be  an<BR>
> >easier shape to do.  But I suspect either  would  be  a  bit  too<BR>
> >large (I'm guessing you were joking, too).   However,  a  Ghalalk<BR>
> >class Armoured Cruiser would be excellent: I need an  alternative<BR>
> >'big ship' to the AHL, and the Ghalalk  (as  a  ubiquitous  fleet<BR>
> >workhorse) would be an ideal choice.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Additionally,  non-starship  locations  would   be   useful   for<BR>
> >subsequent packets: bar, customs point in a  starport  concourse,<BR>
> >floor of a generic flop-house,  air/raft  rental  agency,  ground<BR>
> >vehicle port on a sealed dome, Duke  Norris's  audience  chamber,<BR>
> >high-port docking  station,  the  Imperial  throne  room,  Prince<BR>
> >Varian's quarters, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Prince Varian's quarters -- what kind of campaign do _you_ run?<BR>
> <BR>
> :  )<BR>
> <BR>
> I neglected to mention that non-starship plans are on the list for<BR>
> consideration, and I am soliciting suggestions for those as well.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have asked for a cost study of printing the sheets on both <BR>
> sides, square<BR>
> grind on one side, hexes on the other.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Loren Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
Oohhh! The power I wield <g><BR>
<BR>
As for non-starship plans:<BR>
<BR>
Bars/Clubs<BR>
Hotels<BR>
Villas<BR>
Palaces<BR>
Government Buildings<BR>
Offices<BR>
Prisons<BR>
Warehouses<BR>
Industrial Complexes<BR>
Starport Buildings (Control Tower, Customs buildings, Maintenance<BR>
Facilities etc)<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, you don't need to completely map out a Hotel (eg) as most<BR>
floors would be nearly identical, and thus fairly generic.  The same<BR>
applies to Offices and Prisons etc.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, any typical location the PC's will either frequent while<BR>
relaxing (or trying to...), or try to break into or out of.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:13:10 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Trevor, Peter [mailto:Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com]<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 3:53 PM<BR>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
> > Are these already intended to be backprinted, or just single-<BR>
> > sided sheets? If you can't find a way to superimpose the two<BR>
> > grids on the one deckplan, and the backs *are* currently blank,<BR>
> > then I still prefer back-to-back deckplans, one hex and one<BR>
> > square.<BR>
> <BR>
> One small request: if the plans are  backprinted  with  different<BR>
> plans please make them for a  different  ship.  What  I  mean  is<BR>
> don't put deck A on one side and deck B of the same ship  on  the<BR>
> back of the same sheet.  Usually when I  use  plans  I  can  have<BR>
> action on multiple decks of a ship simultaneously.<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
I agree entirely.<BR>
<BR>
My suggestion is that if an economical way cannot be found to combine<BR>
both hex and square gridplans on the one deckplan, then have each sheet<BR>
backprinted with the *same* deck, only in the alternate gridplan.<BR>
<BR>
ie <BR>
<BR>
Sheet 1 side A = Beowulf Deck A (Hexes)<BR>
<BR>
Sheet 1 side B = Beowulf Deck A (Squares)<BR>
<BR>
etc<BR>
<BR>
I'm also wary of having different ships on the rear of a sheet, as you<BR>
can guarantee that if you have a Beowulf on side A and a Marava on side<BR>
B you will end up having a boarding action involving a docked<BR>
Beowulf/Marava combination <g>. Or the ships launch will be on the back<BR>
of the engineering sheet, and some bright spark of a PC will try to dock<BR>
it with the engineering Airlock during an boarding action, meaning you<BR>
either need two sets of the sheets, or you resort to photocopies (which<BR>
we all know is a big no-no! <g>)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2595<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd04.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:25:13 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:24:56 2000<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA38349;<BR>
	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:23:00 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:22:52 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA38309<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:22:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:22:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006131622.MAA38309@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2595<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2596</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/13/00 12:56:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2596<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: GURPS Character Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: deckplans<BR>
Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect  ions?)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
[Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
Mayday  PDF on Palm?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
keyboard kill<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:30:28 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: GURPS Character Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: N.I.C.Bradbeer [mailto:N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk]<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 4:43 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
> > contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris, get a bottle of champagne. Truly it is a great day for Heresy!<BR>
> <BR>
> Nick<BR>
<BR>
It certainly is. I always thought Peter was under a Geas to only go by<BR>
the strict letter of the rules, rather than attempt to divine the<BR>
underlying principle and 'design philosophy' of the game.<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations Peter, you are free of the Tuatha de'Daanans curse at<BR>
last!<BR>
<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:30:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Loren Wiseman [mailto:lkw@io.com]<BR>
 <BR>
> Any who think this is a good idea, and would like to suggest <BR>
> other subjects<BR>
> for subsequent packets should e-mail me at lkw@io.com. I'm <BR>
> trying to guess<BR>
> what demand might be . . .<BR>
<BR>
I've got to step forward for my recommendations.<BR>
<BR>
The deckplans should be printed with hexes.  This is a supplement for GURPS Traveller, and GURPS uses hexes.<BR>
<BR>
However, I suggest that the hexes be printed in the lightest, thinnest line as possible.  That way, using the sheets as-is will allow you to use the hex grids, but if the hexes are light enough, one could use a square grind overlay (aka Chessix) and ignore the hexes completely.<BR>
<BR>
Failing that, print them using the hex-dots, similar to the Sprawl Maps supplement FASA put out for Shadow Run.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:54:39 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: deckplans<BR>
<BR>
>From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
...<BR>
>Are these already intended to be backprinted, or just single-sided<BR>
>sheets? If you can't find a way to superimpose the two grids on the one<BR>
>deckplan, and the backs *are* currently blank, then I still prefer<BR>
>back-to-back deckplans, one hex and one square.<BR>
><BR>
>However, I seem to be a voice in the wilderness here, as everyone else<BR>
>seems to prefer a transparent overlay. I can't help thinking that this<BR>
>will dramatically increase the production costs, compared to simply<BR>
>backprinting/increasing the number of sheets.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, it's terribly easy to put a hex-overlay PDF on SJGames web-site,<BR>
and then have people either print it to transparency, or to white paper<BR>
and then photocopy it to a transparency - cost around a buck (IIRC) for<BR>
those who care to bother. And besides, at 1" = two yards, is a hex grid<BR>
really _that_ necessary for GURPS play - even for G:T, it seems nice to<BR>
not have so intrusive a game artefact on what are, after all, supposed<BR>
to be enhancers of the games visual impact.<BR>
<BR>
>Needless to say, I'll buy either version <g><BR>
<BR>
  Normally I'd agree, but hexes are less visually appealing, and<BR>
of very little use to CT players; I'd take a pass on these :(<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:08:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/12/00 8:36 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> If it were retrofitted for non-humanoid aliens, things could be even more<BR>
>> fun.  >:-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh, you mean like the wire wheel and "mild" acid spray that they use<BR>
> instead of toilet paper?<BR>
<BR>
You're beginning to scare me Leonard! ;) I think he had the furnishings in<BR>
mind, say like five or six holes lined up along a very thin porcelin<BR>
recliner, or a collection of thick tubes hanging from beneath a padded<BR>
mushroom-like object.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:12:44 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
...<BR>
>Sheet 1 side A = Beowulf Deck A (Hexes)<BR>
><BR>
>Sheet 1 side B = Beowulf Deck A (Squares)<BR>
<BR>
  Great - but what if you have to stage a fight between two groups<BR>
of PC's from different rules systems?                           :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:16:55 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect  ions?)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Moody, Danny M. wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>
>>>> I don't know many men who are willing to take that much of a backseat<BR>
>>>> role.  <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Quite a broad brush there, not necessarily wrong, but broad.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> Hey, you saw "I don't know" in there didn't you?<BR>
>> <BR>
> Yeah, I did.  I understand, but, especially speaking as a member of<BR>
> the male side of the species, I just don't like having to admit that<BR>
> that statement is true.  I mean, I know that most men are pond scum<BR>
> (and many of us *like* it), but I also like to think that us male-type<BR>
> people don't have a monopoly on it, and with 3000 years more of<BR>
> practice, maybe we will have bubbled up to the surface.<BR>
> <BR>
You know, it doesn't make you pond scum to be that way.  People are the<BR>
way they are.  If someone prefers to be involved in their partner's work<BR>
and life, they just need to find someone who wants that too.<BR>
<BR>
What makes some men "pond scum" is their insistence on taking women who<BR>
are not that way and trying to mold them to fit.  I know many women who<BR>
like to have their partner involved in most everything they do...<BR>
<BR>
but I'm NOT one of them.<BR>
<BR>
I think I put up with an incredible amount of shit from Hiroshi for two<BR>
reasons:<BR>
<BR>
1) he was really really good at making me feel good <BR>
<BR>
and <BR>
<BR>
2) he knew when to leave me alone and get out of my way!<BR>
<BR>
> Although this is true, I never could understand it.  Why would anyone<BR>
> *want* to spend time with those that aren't competent, much less be<BR>
> scared off by it?<BR>
> <BR>
Insecurity.  Men are socialized that they have to compete all the time. So<BR>
when they're home, they want a safe, nurturing, absolutely non-competitive<BR>
person to bury themselves in.  And when we've got all those gooshy<BR>
hormones oozing through our systems because we've got a man we feel safe<BR>
with and who is also good at making us feel good enough to get those<BR>
hormones flowing, women are really good at that.  But insecure men don't<BR>
think they have what it takes to get a girl like me to behave that way.  <BR>
And mostly they don't, because they are insecure and lose control of<BR>
themselves and don't make us feel safe or sated enough.  (Women like me<BR>
have emotional armor.)<BR>
<BR>
Many men feel threatened by women.  Mothers of young children have to be<BR>
very good at organizing and multitasking.  Most women are capable of<BR>
multiple orgasms and can enjoy sex for a long time if they are in touch<BR>
with their sexuality and have a partner who is not threatened by it.  If<BR>
we didn't have all those gooshy chemicals, I doubt we'd be capable of<BR>
monogamy... while polygyny makes sense from a reproductive standpoint, one<BR>
men can impregnate many women, polyandry makes sense from a purely<BR>
hedonistic standpoint (the clitoral/G-spot constellation is like the<BR>
energizer bunny, it keeps going and going... the penis does not.)  Sexual<BR>
and emotional bonding is what keeps women faithful, and in the absence of<BR>
social constraints it is the only thing that keeps women faithful.<BR>
<BR>
Hiroshi and one other man are the only men in my life who have had me to<BR>
the point where I didn't at least look at other guys even if I did nothing<BR>
about it... and being an alpha female, I have the alpha predilection to<BR>
non-monogamy very strongly... <BR>
 <BR>
Anyhow, I think that if we do have a more egalitarian society 3000 years<BR>
in the future it'll be because we understand the differences between the<BR>
sexes and have learned how to work with, not against them so that people<BR>
can do whatever they want to do.<BR>
<BR>
> I find myself in an atypical situation.  All of the women in my family<BR>
> are quite strong and competent, so I was raised in the atmosphere that<BR>
> this was 'normal'.  It was quite a shocker when I realized that not<BR>
> all women are like that.  I have been called 'too demanding' in some<BR>
> of my relationships due to the fact that I can't tolerate stupidity<BR>
> (or, more commonly, the facade of stupidity many women feel they have<BR>
> to assume) gracefully.<BR>
> <BR>
Hm... not ever having dated you, I can't speak to that, but I tend to<BR>
think that being demanding and having high standards is good. <BR>
<BR>
>>> Besides, what about Margaret Thatcher husband, Denis?  <BR>
>>><BR>
>> That's very true-- but I wonder what he would have been like <BR>
>> during times as turbulent as those we are discussing.<BR>
> <BR>
> He did quite well during the Falklands blow up.  Of course, that isn't<BR>
> even close to the probs seen during the Civil War times, but I have<BR>
> noticed that desperate times tend to bring out the best and worse in<BR>
> people.  I doubt that Arbellatra would be involved with someone who<BR>
> wouldn't rise to the challenge.<BR>
> <BR>
Me too.  Or if she had, she'd have ejected him...<BR>
<BR>
> > > Cause you'd march in from the borders and take over.<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > Damn straight I would!<BR>
> <BR>
> See? It's attitude like that that I respect. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
^_^<BR>
<BR>
A girl does what a girl's gotta do. <BR>
<BR>
[female postorgasmic sexual bonding and consequent gooshiness]<BR>
<BR>
> It's not just societal norms, but it is much more acceptable for women<BR>
> to act upon those desires and many men actually enjoy and encourage<BR>
> it.  It gives them a feeling of power and control and there are those<BR>
> that will seek out women with such feelings and use it against them.  <BR>
<BR>
One of my previous lovers was like that.  Ironically, it was the longest<BR>
relationship I've ever been in.  I was with him for four years. It took me<BR>
nearly ten to get over him.  He was an evil SOB...<BR>
<BR>
> I've seen this in many women that I know, and it seems that the more<BR>
> intelligent, aggressive, and competent the women are the more common<BR>
> it is.  I think part of it is the fact that in order to be an<BR>
> intelligent, competent woman in today's society you almost can't show<BR>
> any weaknesses, and the desire to succumb to that 'warm' feeling<BR>
> manifests itself in the place where it should be save to feel it.  My<BR>
> wife has this in varying degrees, and it can drive me nuts sometimes,<BR>
> especially when I ask her for advice and help.  It's taken years for<BR>
> us to understand and work around it, but sometimes she feels the need<BR>
> to just wallow in it.<BR>
> <BR>
I don't think it has anything to do with that.  I don't think that I would<BR>
not feel this way if people didn't call me a ball-busting bitch when I<BR>
assert myself.  (I've gotten to the point where I consider that a<BR>
compliment.)<BR>
<BR>
I think it's hormonal.  I've been in nurturing, otherwise good<BR>
relationships where it didn't happen because I wasn't getting off just<BR>
right.  And the second I met someone who could make me feel that way...<BR>
<BR>
And it is very hard not to just wallow in it.  The chemicals that run<BR>
through your body after *good* sex are similar to the chemicals that run<BR>
through your body after childbirth, when you're bonding with a newborn.  <BR>
I haven't experienced the latter but I have felt so bonded to two men in<BR>
particular that they might as well have been my children and that breaking<BR>
up with them felt a lot like I would imagine giving up one's child would<BR>
feel.<BR>
<BR>
Your wife can't *help* it, and it is a compliment to you as a man that you<BR>
induce this in her. <BR>
<BR>
> I'd have to disagree with that.  Arbellatra isn't a standard-issue<BR>
> woman.  She wouldn't be attracted to standard-issue men.  Therefore,<BR>
> if she was married (and I use that term in the meaning of 'a<BR>
> committed, long-term relationship') it would be to a non<BR>
> standard-issue man.<BR>
>  <BR>
I guess the thing that bothers me about it is just the assumption that she<BR>
would have been married.  We don't tend to make these assumptions about<BR>
men.  Some people just never even think about getting married because they<BR>
are too busy with other things.  We always assume that men are happy like<BR>
that and that women are not.  I'd have had an easier life by far if I was<BR>
that kind of person!<BR>
<BR>
>> And in any event, if her spouse wasn't mentioned in canon, I <BR>
>> see no reason to assume that she had one just because she had children. <BR>
> <BR>
> That is true, as Norris has shown us.  But after reading copious<BR>
> amounts about the live of Lady Thatcher (*you* try marrying a PhD<BR>
> candidate in political science and not get swept up in it), I can<BR>
> count on my fingers the number of times her husband was mentioned.  <BR>
> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.<BR>
> <BR>
Perhaps not-- but he WAS mentioned.<BR>
<BR>
> > Your wife only screwed up ONCE.  I've managed to pull it off <BR>
> > three times<BR>
> > with legal papers and several more without.  <BR>
> <BR>
> It doesn't have to have be legal to be considered a 'screw-up'.<BR>
><BR>
Oh, my worst screw-up ever wasn't legal!<BR>
 <BR>
>> I'm not done with relationships, mind you-- I have too much of a<BR>
physical drive for that ^_* and I'm way too romantic to settle for just<BR>
sex forever.  It's even possible that someone could talk me into marrying<BR>
again. But they'd have to have one hell of an unbeatable argument!<BR>
>><BR>
> My wife used to think like that.  It took her almost ten years to<BR>
> change her mind, and that was with me working with her for almost four<BR>
> of those years.<BR>
> <BR>
I wonder if Hide or Mitsuru (two men who are currently courting me) have<BR>
that kind of stamina?  Mitsuru's convinced that I'm his future wife.  He<BR>
*may* be weird enough to handle me...  ^_-<BR>
<BR>
> I figure Arbellatra took quite a while to find someone, also (assuming<BR>
> that she did).<BR>
> <BR>
I'm sure of it!  Unless she met him when she was 12.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri ^_^<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:17:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:25:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> >>The Third Imperium is, officially, a restoration<BR>
> of the<BR>
> >>Ziru Sirka.  What was the legitimacy of the Vilani<BR>
> >>emperor's position?<BR>
> You replied:<BR>
> >    Could the fact that he can nuke you back to<BR>
> before the<BR>
> >stone age be legitimacy enough for you?<BR>
> <BR>
> No.  The school bully is not the legitimate ruler of<BR>
> the<BR>
> schoolyard, although he may in fact get whatever he<BR>
> wants. <BR>
> Legitimate means in accordance with law or accepted<BR>
> as<BR>
> correct and proper.<BR>
<BR>
The law is written by the biggest bully, however - in<BR>
the case of the schoolyard, the school establishment.<BR>
All power comes from the barrel of a gun.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, maybe the people can revolt... but if the<BR>
revolt's successful, then that means that the<BR>
revolutionary organisations, and not the governments,<BR>
were the biggest bullies.<BR>
<BR>
Power comes to the hands of the most powerful. If the<BR>
government treats its people well, it can prevent<BR>
revolution because the people have less reason to join<BR>
the opposition and therefore the opposition is less<BR>
powerful.<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:31:29 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
Can we get an [Oprah] header or something like<BR>
that to signal touchy-feely women-men stuff, please?<BR>
Accidentally tripped into this thread and now I<BR>
feel dirty.<BR>
<BR>
Mommy!  Mommy!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
[snip . . . um . .  stuff]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:32:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/13/00 6:15 AM, MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> However, I seem to be a voice in the wilderness here, as everyone else<BR>
> seems to prefer a transparent overlay.<BR>
<BR>
I prefer the overlay, but the back-printing is a fine idea. The overlays<BR>
would be usefull for /any/ maps though, and someone may consider this idea<BR>
for a separate project. Perhaps such a product is already on the market, if<BR>
anybody knows of such a thing, please tell.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:30:48 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote,<BR>
>Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
Suppose that my character takes a NPC 100 point husband appearing<BR>
on a 15-. She has to pay 15 points for this advantage. By contrast<BR>
suppose that Bob and Sue decide that their 100 point player<BR>
characters are married and always together. They effectively<BR>
have the the same 100 point ally appearing on a 15- for free<BR>
that my charecter had to pay 15 points for. I think that this<BR>
is unjust and in violation of the stated GURPS rules (see<BR>
below). If the GURPS rules require me to pay for my charecters<BR>
advantage than so should Bob and Sue. YMMV.<<BR>
<BR>
By this logic, you should charge every player for every other player in the<BR>
group since their characters will be showing up and (almost certainly) be<BR>
helping out on a regular basis. That utterly defies any logic in the game.<BR>
Further, you are "assuming facts not in evidence" by asking what if one<BR>
player leaves the group giving the other a free NPC. Why have you decided<BR>
one player will be leaving before you even start? Granted I have been in<BR>
groups that aren't all that stable in terms of members or appearance on game<BR>
days, but this is a bit extreme.<BR>
And what about Disadvantage points for having "forced" feelings for another<BR>
character? Why shouldn't the players now insist that they get each other as<BR>
DNPCs under your system?<BR>
If players want to establish a role-playing background to their characters<BR>
like this I would do anything but discourage it by charging them for the<BR>
"privilege". And if you are that worried about one player leaving, just say<BR>
the two characters get a divorce.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:37:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Can we get an [Oprah] header or something like<BR>
> that to signal touchy-feely women-men stuff, please?<BR>
> Accidentally tripped into this thread and now I<BR>
> feel dirty.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mommy!  Mommy!<BR>
> <BR>
> bloo<BR>
> <BR>
> [snip . . . um . .  stuff]<BR>
> <BR>
Oh, please.  I don't think I could have been any more direct and clear and<BR>
non touchy-feely if I had tried.<BR>
<BR>
This kind of reaction is one of the reasons I'm rather pessimistic about<BR>
great and vast changes in the way people relate happening even over the<BR>
next 3000 years.  A woman talks about emotions having a biological basis<BR>
and some guy complains that he feels dirty.<BR>
<BR>
Sheesh!  This is science, not Oprah.  If you talked like that on the Oprah<BR>
show you'd be crucified... <BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:40:17 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>
> [female postorgasmic sexual bonding and consequent gooshiness]<BR>
<BR>
<babyPlucky><BR>
Eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwww!<BR>
</babyPlucky><BR>
<BR>
> > That is true, as Norris has shown us.  But after reading copious<BR>
> > amounts about the live of Lady Thatcher (*you* try marrying a PhD<BR>
> > candidate in political science and not get swept up in it), I can<BR>
> > count on my fingers the number of times her husband was mentioned.  <BR>
> > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.<BR>
> > <BR>
> Perhaps not-- but he WAS mentioned.<BR>
<BR>
I plowed through and incredible amount of material on Lady Thatcher.  What do we have on Arbellatra?  Less than half a page?<BR>
<BR>
> I wonder if Hide or Mitsuru (two men who are currently <BR>
> courting me) have<BR>
> that kind of stamina?  Mitsuru's convinced that I'm his <BR>
> future wife.  He<BR>
> *may* be weird enough to handle me...  ^_-<BR>
<BR>
Either way, best of luck to ya.<BR>
<BR>
> > I figure Arbellatra took quite a while to find someone, <BR>
> also (assuming<BR>
> > that she did).<BR>
> > <BR>
> I'm sure of it!  Unless she met him when she was 12.<BR>
<BR>
Which would add quite a spin on things.  What if she *was* married to someone from a powerful family - maybe another reason she was acceptable to the Moot to become Empress.<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:37:42 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> And the Terran Confederation ruled the former 1st Imperium by right of<BR>
> conquest while Hiroshi I ruled both by right of fleet control.<BR>
<BR>
You Know You've Been Reading TML Too Long When You Think:<BR>
<BR>
 "Was this before or after he and Kiri broke up?"<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:48:27 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: Mayday  PDF on Palm?<BR>
<BR>
This question is for any of the BITS people or any PalmOS users on the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone created a PDA readable version of the Mayday 4.1 PDF. Even ascii<BR>
text would be fine.<BR>
<BR>
I would like o be able to read it on my Palm but I don't know if I can get<BR>
permission to convert it.   <BR>
<BR>
Anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers<BR>
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913<BR>
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:44:23 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Steven Hudson" <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 6:12 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >Sheet 1 side A = Beowulf Deck A (Hexes)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Sheet 1 side B = Beowulf Deck A (Squares)<BR>
> <BR>
>   Great - but what if you have to stage a fight between two groups<BR>
> of PC's from different rules systems?                           :)<BR>
<BR>
:-P<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:45:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> > And the Terran Confederation ruled the former 1st Imperium by right of<BR>
> > conquest while Hiroshi I ruled both by right of fleet control.<BR>
> <BR>
> You Know You've Been Reading TML Too Long When You Think:<BR>
> <BR>
>  "Was this before or after he and Kiri broke up?"<BR>
> <BR>
You, sir, owe the University of California-San Francisco Medical Center a<BR>
keyboard.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri (damn, I knew I shoulda stuck it out a couple more -- hundred --<BR>
years?  You bettah be nice to me, I coulda been Empress!)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:45:27 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 12:15 AM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>... I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
>>both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to come<BR>
>>up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered.<BR>
<BR>
>  As a possible suggestion, how about a faint 1.5 meter square grid and<BR>
>two ~8"x10" over-lay sheets per deckplan set? The square grid would be<BR>
>adequate for non-GURPS play, and would provide a superior "playing<BR>
>surface" for non-combat encounters using GURPS rules - the over-lay could<BR>
>be deployed when the ref sees fit.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'd prefer 1 meter (or 1 yard, if you insist) to 1.5,<BR>
and there lies the rub.  If you put the squares or hexes on the<BR>
paper then someone is going to be unhappy.  <BR>
<BR>
I know it might be more expensive, but unmarked plans with clear<BR>
plastic overlays would be much more flexible.  My suggestion is to<BR>
make sure the plans are all the same scale, but don't put squares or<BR>
hexes on the plans themselves.  Instead include a couple of A4<BR>
sheets of hexes and squares.  These two sheets *could* be clear<BR>
plastics, or just good strong copyable paper.  Almost all of us have<BR>
access *somewhere* to a copy machine that can copy to clear plastic<BR>
overlays.  We can make the overlays as we need them, mark on them,<BR>
erase them, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
What do you say to that?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:46:56 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 08:52 AM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 12-06-00 6:18:00 PM CST, <BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>> What if you designed the dexplans with no grid on them at all?   <BR>
>>  Then include a clear or see through grid that could be overlayed on <BR>
>>  the deckplans.  Or vice versa of course.?<BR>
>>  <BR>
<BR>
>$$$$$$$$<BR>
<BR>
Let *us* make the plastic overlays. Then it's our $$$$$$$$, not yours. <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:50:10 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 08:48 AM,  Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Hmmm, you could sell the overlays as  a  separate  product.<BR>
<BR>
>    But why should SJG bother?  Last time I checked, there was a company<BR>
>called Chessex that produced something called the Battlemat...which is<BR>
>available in hex or square grids in a "clear" color (among others).  It's<BR>
>a heck of a lot more durable than any flimsy overlays would be, and comes<BR>
>in large and "has anyone seen the table?" sizes.  They're still in<BR>
>business, aren't they?<BR>
<BR>
Clear as in "lay over a sheet of paper and see though it?  Yes, that would solve the hex vs square problem. You just have to make sure the scale matches.<BR>
<BR>
>    Who knows, Chessex might pay SJG a nominal advertising fee just for<BR>
>recommending said product in the deckplan documentation.<BR>
<BR>
>    And SJG could add a "reference dot" on the deckplans to indicate the<BR>
>best place to line up the preferred grid. (g)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, *this* makes perfect sense.  And I'd still include small copyable grids with the plans for the "do it yourselfer."<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2596<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (rly-yc03.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.35]) by air-yc02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:56:08 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:55:00 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA46831;<BR>
	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:52:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:52:24 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA46791<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:52:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:52:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006131952.PAA46791@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2596<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2597</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/13/00 2:19:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2597<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
Nasa on Plasma Drives<BR>
Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
Re: Nasa on Plasma Drives<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW -   connect ions?)<BR>
Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
gender differences/social structure<BR>
Kiri's joke detector<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:55:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 05:22 PM,  Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>As for non-starship plans:<BR>
<BR>
>Bars/Clubs<BR>
>Hotels<BR>
>Villas<BR>
>Palaces<BR>
>Government Buildings<BR>
>Offices<BR>
>Prisons<BR>
>Warehouses<BR>
>Industrial Complexes<BR>
>Starport Buildings (Control Tower, Customs buildings, Maintenance<BR>
>Facilities etc)<BR>
<BR>
TAS facilities - IMTU, TAS tries to produce the same layout in all<BR>
                 of its buildings, the better to "assist" its<BR>
                 members and for ease of training of personnel<BR>
Bank Lobby<BR>
Police Station<BR>
Laboratory<BR>
various spaceships (non-starships) <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:32:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Hmmm, you could sell the overlays as  a  separate  product.<BR>
><BR>
>     But why should SJG bother?  Last time I checked, there was a company<BR>
> called Chessex that produced something called the Battlemat...which is<BR>
> available in hex or square grids in a "clear" color (among others).  It's a<BR>
> heck of a lot more durable than any flimsy overlays would be, and comes in<BR>
> large and "has anyone seen the table?" sizes.  They're still in business,<BR>
> aren't they?<BR>
>     Who knows, Chessex might pay SJG a nominal advertising fee just for<BR>
> recommending said product in the deckplan documentation.<BR>
>     And SJG could add a "reference dot" on the deckplans to indicate the best<BR>
> place to line up the preferred grid. (g)<BR>
<BR>
Make it a hex of the right size, and a square of the right size. And<BR>
(obviously) in different locations in the "blank" space outside the<BR>
ship. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:36:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Additionally,  non-starship  locations  would   be   useful   for<BR>
>>>subsequent packets: bar, customs point in a  starport  concourse,<BR>
>>>floor of a generic flop-house,  air/raft  rental  agency,  ground<BR>
>>>vehicle port on a sealed dome, Duke  Norris's  audience  chamber,<BR>
>>>high-port docking  station,  the  Imperial  throne  room,  Prince<BR>
>>>Varian's quarters, etc.<BR>
<BR>
>> I neglected to mention that non-starship plans are on the list for<BR>
>> consideration, and I am soliciting suggestions for those as well.<BR>
<BR>
> As for non-starship plans:<BR>
><BR>
> Bars/Clubs<BR>
> Hotels<BR>
> Villas<BR>
> Palaces<BR>
> Government Buildings<BR>
> Offices<BR>
> Prisons<BR>
> Warehouses<BR>
> Industrial Complexes<BR>
> Starport Buildings (Control Tower, Customs buildings, Maintenance<BR>
> Facilities etc)<BR>
><BR>
> Obviously, you don't need to completely map out a Hotel (eg) as most<BR>
> floors would be nearly identical, and thus fairly generic.  The same<BR>
> applies to Offices and Prisons etc.<BR>
><BR>
> Basically, any typical location the PC's will either frequent while<BR>
> relaxing (or trying to...), or try to break into or out of.<BR>
<BR>
And keep in mind that a lot of this stuff at lower tech levels can be<BR>
used with *other* GURPS settings. Clear back to savage level stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Only the ships, and some spaceport/station related maps need to be<BR>
designed *specifically* for Traveller. That make the market a lot<BR>
wider. <BR>
<BR>
I still have both the Castle plans and the ship plans I bought from<BR>
FGU. They were *intended* for use with Chiavlry and Sorcery. But I used<BR>
them for D&D, and they'll work just as well if I ever have to drop<BR>
players into a medieval level society in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:48:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
> ...<BR>
>>Sheet 1 side A = Beowulf Deck A (Hexes)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Sheet 1 side B = Beowulf Deck A (Squares)<BR>
><BR>
>   Great - but what if you have to stage a fight between two groups<BR>
> of PC's from different rules systems?                           :)<BR>
<BR>
Home team gets its grid type for the playing field...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:53:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Moody, Danny M. wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> > From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>
>>>>> I don't know many men who are willing to take that much of a backseat<BR>
>>>>> role.  <BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> Quite a broad brush there, not necessarily wrong, but broad.<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>> Hey, you saw "I don't know" in there didn't you?<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> Yeah, I did.  I understand, but, especially speaking as a member of<BR>
>> the male side of the species, I just don't like having to admit that<BR>
>> that statement is true.  I mean, I know that most men are pond scum<BR>
>> (and many of us *like* it), but I also like to think that us male-type<BR>
>> people don't have a monopoly on it, and with 3000 years more of<BR>
>> practice, maybe we will have bubbled up to the surface.<BR>
>> <BR>
> You know, it doesn't make you pond scum to be that way.  People are the<BR>
> way they are.  If someone prefers to be involved in their partner's work<BR>
> and life, they just need to find someone who wants that too.<BR>
><BR>
> What makes some men "pond scum" is their insistence on taking women who<BR>
> are not that way and trying to mold them to fit.<BR>
<BR>
It's not just men who do that. Or we wouldn't have a stereotype of the<BR>
*woman* who marries a man and then tries to change everything about him!<BR>
<BR>
> Insecurity.  Men are socialized that they have to compete all the time.<BR>
<BR>
And it not only didn't take on some of us, it led to a lot of<BR>
unnecessary trauma. :-(<BR>
<BR>
Hopefully society will "grow up" a bit in the next few thousand years<BR>
and accept the idea that some people aren't wired that way *regardless*<BR>
of sex.<BR>
<BR>
> But insecure men don't<BR>
> think they have what it takes to get a girl like me to behave that way.  <BR>
> And mostly they don't, because they are insecure and lose control of<BR>
> themselves and don't make us feel safe or sated enough.  (Women like me<BR>
> have emotional armor.)<BR>
<BR>
So do some men...<BR>
<BR>
> Many men feel threatened by women.  Mothers of young children have to be<BR>
> very good at organizing and multitasking.  Most women are capable of<BR>
> multiple orgasms and can enjoy sex for a long time if they are in touch<BR>
> with their sexuality and have a partner who is not threatened by it.  If<BR>
> we didn't have all those gooshy chemicals, I doubt we'd be capable of<BR>
> monogamy... while polygyny makes sense from a reproductive standpoint, one<BR>
> men can impregnate many women, polyandry makes sense from a purely<BR>
> hedonistic standpoint (the clitoral/G-spot constellation is like the<BR>
> energizer bunny, it keeps going and going... the penis does not.)  Sexual<BR>
> and emotional bonding is what keeps women faithful, and in the absence of<BR>
> social constraints it is the only thing that keeps women faithful.<BR>
<BR>
Alternate family structures can do this sort of thing *without*<BR>
requiring mongamy. And even if they aren't "mainstream" in the<BR>
Imperium, they'd be a nice change for some societies. <BR>
<BR>
Traveller *really* needs a "101 social structures" supplement. But we'd<BR>
need a semi-professional anthropologist to help with examples and make<BR>
sure we didn't screw up too badly with regards to "consequences" of any<BR>
structures that have historical analogs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:11:04 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Nasa on Plasma Drives<BR>
<BR>
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/mars/technology/propulsion/aspl/<BR>
<BR>
The Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket<BR>
VARSIMR.<BR>
<BR>
If the page is too slow, the press release is also<BR>
at Slashdot.org<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:05:27 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 10:32 AM,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 6/13/00 6:15 AM, MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk issued<BR>
>forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> However, I seem to be a voice in the wilderness here, as everyone else<BR>
>> seems to prefer a transparent overlay.<BR>
<BR>
>I prefer the overlay, but the back-printing is a fine idea. The overlays<BR>
>would be usefull for /any/ maps though, and someone may consider this<BR>
>idea for a separate project. Perhaps such a product is already on the<BR>
>market, if anybody knows of such a thing, please tell.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with putting the lines *on* the paper is that someone is<BR>
going to be disappointed with whatever is chosen.  If the plans or<BR>
better some add on sheets in the package had grids then each of us<BR>
could make overlays in whatever scale we wanted.  Steve, Mr CT,<BR>
could have his 1.5 meter squares, Mr TNE could have 1 meter squares,<BR>
I could have 1 meter hexes, and GT'ers else could have 1 yard hexes.<BR>
 <BR>
Doesn't this make sense?  Lower cost to SJG.  More flexiblity for<BR>
the buyers.<BR>
<BR>
The idea of the Chessex battlemaps *is* a neat one, too. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:20:37 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Nasa on Plasma Drives<BR>
<BR>
WOW! <BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/mars/technology/propulsion/aspl/<BR>
> <BR>
> The Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket<BR>
> VARSIMR.<BR>
> <BR>
> If the page is too slow, the press release is also<BR>
> at Slashdot.org<BR>
> <BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:24:07 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
>Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
...<BR>
>>  As a possible suggestion, how about a faint 1.5 meter square grid and<BR>
>>two ~8"x10" over-lay sheets per deckplan set? The square grid would be<BR>
>>adequate for non-GURPS play, and would provide a superior "playing<BR>
>>surface" for non-combat encounters using GURPS rules - the over-lay could<BR>
>>be deployed when the ref sees fit.<BR>
><BR>
>Personally, I'd prefer 1 meter (or 1 yard, if you insist) to 1.5,<BR>
>and there lies the rub.  If you put the squares or hexes on the<BR>
>paper then someone is going to be unhappy.  <BR>
<BR>
  Using one meter/one yard interchangably, we could still end up with <BR>
most corridors being the same width (otherwise - _ooh_, which half-hex<BR>
am I in for vital rules purposes?).<BR>
<BR>
>I know it might be more expensive, but unmarked plans with clear<BR>
>plastic overlays would be much more flexible.  My suggestion is to<BR>
>make sure the plans are all the same scale, but don't put squares or<BR>
>hexes on the plans themselves.  Instead include a couple of A4<BR>
<BR>
  The advantage of _faint_ 1.5m grids is that they could be excused<BR>
away as floor-plate art - their lack would also _clearly_ indicate<BR>
when space open to lower decks was present. This leaves an uncluttered<BR>
display for GURPS play, which only requires a hex-grid at all times<BR>
when being parodied.<BR>
<BR>
  The fact that it suits CT/MT people perfectly is mere coincidence :><BR>
<BR>
>sheets of hexes and squares.  These two sheets *could* be clear<BR>
>plastics, or just good strong copyable paper.  Almost all of us have<BR>
>access *somewhere* to a copy machine that can copy to clear plastic<BR>
>overlays.  We can make the overlays as we need them, mark on them,<BR>
>erase them, and so on.<BR>
><BR>
>What do you say to that?<BR>
<BR>
  The CT remnant, like roaches, shall endure. We will scuttle about and<BR>
make use of the best of follow-on systems, while gleefully ignoring your<BR>
angst-filled debates about half-dice and cartoon mecha-suits - and we<BR>
shall inherit the OT<skrunch><BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, next time, I'll use an analogy other than roaches, methinks...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:28:52 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/12/00 8:13:33 PM !!!First Boot!!!, lkw@io.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< I'm looking at ways of getting<BR>
 both hexgrid and square grid on them, but so far I've been unable to come<BR>
 up with anything that doesn't make the plans look cluttered. >><BR>
<BR>
How about front and back mirror images with hexes on one side and squares on <BR>
the other side?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:38:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW -   connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This kind of reaction is one of the reasons I'm rather pessimistic about<BR>
> great and vast changes in the way people relate happening even over the<BR>
> next 3000 years.<BR>
<BR>
Why should the next 3000 years be any different from the last<BR>
3000?<BR>
<BR>
>  A woman talks about emotions having a biological basis<BR>
> and some guy complains that he feels dirty.<BR>
<BR>
I think your joke detector has malfunctioned.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:39:39 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Myers wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Has anyone created a PDA readable version of the Mayday 4.1 PDF. Even ascii<BR>
> text would be fine.<BR>
<BR>
I missed it.  Where can I find this?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:35:18 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
<BR>
How much would it cost to put out a hex version and a square grid<BR>
version?<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > What makes some men "pond scum" is their insistence on taking women who<BR>
> > are not that way and trying to mold them to fit.<BR>
> <BR>
> It's not just men who do that. Or we wouldn't have a stereotype of the<BR>
> *woman* who marries a man and then tries to change everything about him!<BR>
> <BR>
This may surprise you, but I completely agree.  We simply happened to be<BR>
talking about men at the time.  And the particular change we were<BR>
discussing (a person trying to run their partner's career) is one that is<BR>
usually attempted by men upon women.<BR>
<BR>
The only thing I ever attempted to change about a man I was living with<BR>
was to get the idea across that leaving one's dirty clothes in a<BR>
path from the front door all across shared areas of the household to one's<BR>
favorite chair is NOT polite to the other persons with whom one shares the<BR>
house.  I've yet to meet a female who does that.  And of course I've had<BR>
to introduce persons of both sexes to the idea that shoes do not belong on<BR>
one's feet outside of the foyer, but this went away when I stopped dating<BR>
outside the cultural milieu in which I prefer to reside.<BR>
<BR>
> > Insecurity.  Men are socialized that they have to compete all the time.<BR>
> <BR>
> And it not only didn't take on some of us, it led to a lot of<BR>
> unnecessary trauma. :-(<BR>
> <BR>
I know.<BR>
<BR>
> Hopefully society will "grow up" a bit in the next few thousand years<BR>
> and accept the idea that some people aren't wired that way *regardless*<BR>
> of sex.<BR>
<BR>
I agree, however a lot of damage has also been done by overenthusiastic<BR>
persons who have tried to force boys NOT to be competitive and girls NOT<BR>
to be retiring when this happens to be that person's general nature.  It<BR>
is probably true that most men are somewhat more aggressive and<BR>
competitive than most women.  If it weren't, our society wouldn't have<BR>
evolved in the way that it has.  The point of civilization, however, is to<BR>
recognize that not everyone fits into a mold and to make room for those<BR>
who do things differently, provided no one else is harmed by it.<BR>
<BR>
> > But insecure men don't<BR>
> > think they have what it takes to get a girl like me to behave that way.  <BR>
> > And mostly they don't, because they are insecure and lose control of<BR>
> > themselves and don't make us feel safe or sated enough.  (Women like me<BR>
> > have emotional armor.)<BR>
> <BR>
> So do some men...<BR>
> <BR>
Of course.  That simply wasn't what we were discussing just then.<BR>
<BR>
> > Many men feel threatened by women.  Mothers of young children have to be<BR>
> > very good at organizing and multitasking.  Most women are capable of<BR>
> > multiple orgasms and can enjoy sex for a long time if they are in touch<BR>
> > with their sexuality and have a partner who is not threatened by it.  If<BR>
> > we didn't have all those gooshy chemicals, I doubt we'd be capable of<BR>
> > monogamy... while polygyny makes sense from a reproductive standpoint, one<BR>
> > men can impregnate many women, polyandry makes sense from a purely<BR>
> > hedonistic standpoint (the clitoral/G-spot constellation is like the<BR>
> > energizer bunny, it keeps going and going... the penis does not.)  Sexual<BR>
> > and emotional bonding is what keeps women faithful, and in the absence of<BR>
> > social constraints it is the only thing that keeps women faithful.<BR>
> <BR>
> Alternate family structures can do this sort of thing *without*<BR>
> requiring monogamy. And even if they aren't "mainstream" in the<BR>
> Imperium, they'd be a nice change for some societies. <BR>
> <BR>
Sure.  However, they're not very common and they probably shouldn't be<BR>
very common in the Imperium either.  Most such alternate family structures<BR>
evolved naturally in response to conditions which made them more adaptive<BR>
than some form of semi-polygynous (usually serially polygynous) <BR>
male-female pairbonding.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't met many men who handle true polyandry real well.  I know, I've<BR>
looked!  *^_^* Some men can tolerate their partner having a female lover,<BR>
or having fun while they're away, or having "secondary" relationships that<BR>
are heavily structured.  Not many men of my acquaintance actually SHARE<BR>
very well, and those that do are usually Japanese fellas who never ever<BR>
speak of the arrangement out loud.  (People who hang out in different<BR>
crowds may have different experiences, of course.)<BR>
<BR>
West Coast style polyamory frequently has so many rules, negotiations and<BR>
verbal agreements to be maintained that it just isn't worth my time,<BR>
though others are quite happy with it. (Not to mention, it's generally<BR>
practiced by people who don't interest me sexually.)  Most of these rules<BR>
seem to be there to make people feel like they really have control over<BR>
what happens in their partners' hearts-- and this is just not true,<BR>
because you can't predict how you'll feel about someone after you sleep<BR>
with them.  Your feelings ARE going to change and they ARE going to get<BR>
stronger even if you merely develop a strong feeling of never wanting to<BR>
see that person again!<BR>
<BR>
(Few women have experienced the "if I chew my arm off will the other party<BR>
not notice and can I get away?" feeling, but I happen to be one of those<BR>
few....)<BR>
<BR>
> Traveller *really* needs a "101 social structures" supplement. But we'd<BR>
> need a semi-professional anthropologist to help with examples and make<BR>
> sure we didn't screw up too badly with regards to "consequences" of any<BR>
> structures that have historical analogs.<BR>
> <BR>
That'd be a fun supplement to write.  Anyone else wanna?<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  ^_^<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:40:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Kiri's joke detector<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > This kind of reaction is one of the reasons I'm rather pessimistic about<BR>
> > great and vast changes in the way people relate happening even over the<BR>
> > next 3000 years.<BR>
> <BR>
> Why should the next 3000 years be any different from the last<BR>
> 3000?<BR>
> <BR>
::sigh::  No reason, just feeling unusually hopeful today... although<BR>
technology does seem to have improved things in the past 150 years or so,<BR>
at the very least it's made it possible for those who wish to avoid<BR>
enforced motherhood and marriage to do so in a handful of cultures where<BR>
they could access it.<BR>
<BR>
> >  A woman talks about emotions having a biological basis<BR>
> > and some guy complains that he feels dirty.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think your joke detector has malfunctioned.<BR>
> <BR>
Sorry.  It does that.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  ^_^<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:46:20 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I know it might be more expensive, but unmarked plans with clear<BR>
> plastic overlays would be much more flexible.<BR>
<BR>
What if on the borders of the plan, there were grid line marks,<BR>
sort of like a ruler.  Then have the plans themselves clear, or<BR>
with a very faint hex pattern (faint enough to be easily ignored).<BR>
<BR>
The border grid marks could also indicate the relevant combat<BR>
ranges, so that a straight edge would quickly tell you where<BR>
something was close or short range.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:51:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:08:44 -0700<BR>
>From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
><BR>
>Via electronic medium on 6/12/00 8:36 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
>forth:<BR>
><BR>
><snip><BR>
><BR>
>You're beginning to scare me Leonard! ;) I think he had the furnishings in<BR>
>mind, say like five or six holes lined up along a very thin porcelin<BR>
>recliner, or a collection of thick tubes hanging from beneath a padded<BR>
>mushroom-like object.<BR>
<BR>
Just think of the rich source of humor it would afford the denizens of the<BR>
Far Future:<BR>
"There is this Vargr stuck on a K'Kree ship, and he goes to look for the<BR>
fresher...." (talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimer:  The half-baked opinions expressed above are my own.  Anyone<BR>
trying to blame them on my employer is nuttier than I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:52:38 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 04:46 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> I know it might be more expensive, but unmarked plans with clear<BR>
>> plastic overlays would be much more flexible.<BR>
<BR>
>What if on the borders of the plan, there were grid line marks, sort of<BR>
>like a ruler.  Then have the plans themselves clear, or with a very faint<BR>
>hex pattern (faint enough to be easily ignored).<BR>
<BR>
>The border grid marks could also indicate the relevant combat ranges, so<BR>
>that a straight edge would quickly tell you where something was close or<BR>
>short range.<BR>
<BR>
Good ideas!  <BR>
<BR>
I think keeping any marks on the deckplans themselves as light and<BR>
limited as possible is the best way to go.  Overlays we could buy or<BR>
make are better.  Heck, if I use the plans a lot, I'd probably want<BR>
to have them laminated and roll them.<BR>
<BR>
Loren, do you think we are giving you worthwhile ideas or should we<BR>
just hush?  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:21:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
<BR>
If you'r looking for the PDF version it's on  BITS website<BR>
www.bits.org.uk click on 'archive' and scroll down the page to 'Rules'<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Steve Daniels" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:39 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Glenn Myers wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Has anyone created a PDA readable version of the Mayday 4.1 PDF. Even<BR>
ascii<BR>
> > text would be fine.<BR>
><BR>
> I missed it.  Where can I find this?<BR>
><BR>
> bloo<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:22:46 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Take a look. (gif is only 3k).<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/deckplan.gif<BR>
<BR>
I whipped it up quick, just to get a feel.<BR>
I didn't export the original at a high enough<BR>
resolution to get the hexes to look right, but<BR>
you can easily get the idea.<BR>
<BR>
And it's not to scale or anything.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/13/00 at 04:46 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >> I know it might be more expensive, but unmarked plans with clear<BR>
> >> plastic overlays would be much more flexible.<BR>
><BR>
> >What if on the borders of the plan, there were grid line marks, sort of<BR>
> >like a ruler.  Then have the plans themselves clear, or with a very faint<BR>
> >hex pattern (faint enough to be easily ignored).<BR>
><BR>
> >The border grid marks could also indicate the relevant combat ranges, so<BR>
> >that a straight edge would quickly tell you where something was close or<BR>
> >short range.<BR>
><BR>
> Good ideas!<BR>
><BR>
> I think keeping any marks on the deckplans themselves as light and<BR>
> limited as possible is the best way to go.  Overlays we could buy or<BR>
> make are better.  Heck, if I use the plans a lot, I'd probably want<BR>
> to have them laminated and roll them.<BR>
><BR>
> Loren, do you think we are giving you worthwhile ideas or should we<BR>
> just hush?  <g><BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
> --<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:19:14 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:18:45 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA51133;<BR>
	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:18:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:17:57 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA51090<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:17:57 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:17:57 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006132117.RAA51090@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2598</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/13/00 4:25:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2598<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Challenge magazine<BR>
RE: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure [Oprah, OT, polygamy]<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
FWD - UK Traveller - Leisure Games New Releases - 12th June 2000<BR>
re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
Re: The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
Re: Borrowed People<BR>
Strange Facilites (was Star Ship Quirks)<BR>
RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:34:58 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 9:05 PM<BR>
Subject: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/13/00 at 10:32 AM,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
said:<BR>
><BR>
> >Via electronic medium on 6/13/00 6:15 AM, MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk issued<BR>
> >forth:<BR>
><BR>
> >> However, I seem to be a voice in the wilderness here, as everyone else<BR>
> >> seems to prefer a transparent overlay.<BR>
><BR>
> >I prefer the overlay, but the back-printing is a fine idea. The overlays<BR>
> >would be usefull for /any/ maps though, and someone may consider this<BR>
> >idea for a separate project. Perhaps such a product is already on the<BR>
> >market, if anybody knows of such a thing, please tell.<BR>
><BR>
> The problem with putting the lines *on* the paper is that someone is<BR>
> going to be disappointed with whatever is chosen.  If the plans or<BR>
> better some add on sheets in the package had grids then each of us<BR>
> could make overlays in whatever scale we wanted.  Steve, Mr CT,<BR>
> could have his 1.5 meter squares, Mr TNE could have 1 meter squares,<BR>
> I could have 1 meter hexes, and GT'ers else could have 1 yard hexes.<BR>
><BR>
> Doesn't this make sense?  Lower cost to SJG.  More flexiblity for<BR>
> the buyers.<BR>
><BR>
> The idea of the Chessex battlemaps *is* a neat one, too. <g><BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
Well if they are to scale with the standard hexes in the main GURPS rulebook<BR>
then you can just photocopy that page onto a transparency. And If there is<BR>
also a scale in metres and yards on the plans then you can design your own<BR>
square overlays accurately for 1m 1.5m 2m 1yd 2yd etc. Just draw your own<BR>
square grid to the appropriate scale an photocopy that onto a transparency.<BR>
<BR>
I don't see the need for SJG to provide separate sheets/transparencies for<BR>
*all* possible scales/formats in the Deckplan pack. It'll just add yet more<BR>
to the cost. And you can guarantee that if they left out any given scale it<BR>
would be the one you want to use <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:53:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
>Subject: gender differences/social structure<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>The only thing I ever attempted to change about a man I was living with<BR>
>was to get the idea across that leaving one's dirty clothes in a<BR>
>path from the front door all across shared areas of the household to one's<BR>
>favorite chair is NOT polite to the other persons with whom one shares the<BR>
>house.  I've yet to meet a female who does that.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, Ms. Morgan....My _wife_ does that...(and got me hooked on the<BR>
habit); last time I looked she was still female :)  It does have a perverse<BR>
appeal - one dresses to go back outdoors again by merely following the<BR>
clothing trail back to the door (the shoes are the first thing to go).<BR>
Minor kitchen safety note:  nudity and sauting do not mix.  Nor does nudity<BR>
and skittish cats.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  The half-baked ideas expressed above are my own.  Anyone<BR>
blaming them on my employer is even nuttier than I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:54:19 EDT<BR>
From: CPoppcap@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Challenge magazine<BR>
<BR>
I am looking for the Issues with IRIS in them.<BR>
Plus If anyone wants  to sell of fthere stuff I will galdly buy .I used to <BR>
have a nice set but my basement got flooded <BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Chuck Popp<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:57:03 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
<BR>
The best 66k I've ever downloaded. <BR>
<BR>
Dom, any development in a final release version?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Dave Strebe [mailto:strebe@intergate.bc.ca]<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 5:21 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> If you'r looking for the PDF version it's on  BITS website<BR>
> www.bits.org.uk click on 'archive' and scroll down the page to 'Rules'<BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Steve Daniels" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:39 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Glenn Myers wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > Has anyone created a PDA readable version of the Mayday <BR>
> 4.1 PDF. Even<BR>
> ascii<BR>
> > > text would be fine.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I missed it.  Where can I find this?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > bloo<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:59:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Rodney Basler [mailto:rgb@odetics.com]<BR>
> >From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
> >house.  I've yet to meet a female who does that.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, Ms. Morgan....My _wife_ does that...(and got me <BR>
> hooked on the<BR>
> habit); last time I looked she was still female :)  It does <BR>
> have a perverse<BR>
> appeal - one dresses to go back outdoors again by merely following the<BR>
> clothing trail back to the door (the shoes are the first thing to go).<BR>
<BR>
Yes!  Finally!  The *real* reason men do this - so they can find their way back out!<BR>
<BR>
> Minor kitchen safety note:  nudity and sauting do not mix.  <BR>
<BR>
Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:06:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/12/00 8:36 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>>> If it were retrofitted for non-humanoid aliens, things could be even more<BR>
>>> fun.  >:-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Oh, you mean like the wire wheel and "mild" acid spray that they use<BR>
>> instead of toilet paper?<BR>
><BR>
> You're beginning to scare me Leonard! ;)<BR>
<BR>
I just took what is reportedly one of the more "annoying" features of<BR>
toilets in some foreign countries and figured out how to make them<BR>
*worse*.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously a hard shelled (insectoid?) alien with sticky, alkaline fecal<BR>
material. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> I think he had the furnishings in<BR>
> mind, say like five or six holes lined up along a very thin porcelin<BR>
> recliner, or a collection of thick tubes hanging from beneath a padded<BR>
> mushroom-like object.<BR>
<BR>
Picture a Hiver or a K'kree trying to figure out a bidet for the first<BR>
time. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:52:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
>> And the Terran Confederation ruled the former 1st Imperium by right of<BR>
>> conquest while Hiroshi I ruled both by right of fleet control.<BR>
><BR>
> You Know You've Been Reading TML Too Long When You Think:<BR>
><BR>
>  "Was this before or after he and Kiri broke up?"<BR>
<BR>
After, obviously. He was just channeling his disappointment and<BR>
feelings of failure into conquest...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:55:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Artillery (was Ground Combat)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> 'course, the obious alternative (assuming you're using direct fire<BR>
>>> weapons) is to incresae muzzle velocity. The round'll be detected at the<BR>
>>> same distance from the target, but since it'll be going faster the PD<BR>
>>> will have less tiem to react. Double the speed, half the reaction time.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Only in *direct fire* mode. In *indirect fire* mode, increasing the<BR>
>> velocity actually *increases* the flight time, because to hit a given<BR>
>> point you have to fire at a steeper angle as the velocity increases.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard - I know that. I'm an engineer who works in the military sphere.<BR>
> That's why I included my assumption.<BR>
<BR>
<blush><BR>
<BR>
Uh, I hate to say this, but I actually missed that "assuming direct<BR>
fire weapons" bit, even though I included it in the quote. <BR>
<BR>
I think my CPU is overdue for its 2e18 cycle overhaul.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:24:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> <snip><BR>
> ><BR>
> >The only thing I ever attempted to change about a man I was living with<BR>
> >was to get the idea across that leaving one's dirty clothes in a<BR>
> >path from the front door all across shared areas of the household to one's<BR>
> >favorite chair is NOT polite to the other persons with whom one shares the<BR>
> >house.  I've yet to meet a female who does that.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, Ms. Morgan....My _wife_ does that...(and got me hooked on the<BR>
> habit); last time I looked she was still female :)  It does have a perverse<BR>
> appeal - one dresses to go back outdoors again by merely following the<BR>
> clothing trail back to the door (the shoes are the first thing to go).<BR>
> Minor kitchen safety note:  nudity and sauting do not mix.  Nor does nudity<BR>
> and skittish cats.<BR>
> <BR>
Well, I've not met your wife.<BR>
<BR>
I think this is a fun thing to do on dates, but only if you live alone and<BR>
aren't inflicting it on roomies.  It's just nasty to have to step over<BR>
someone else's sweaty clothes.  But I will admit that it is great when I'm<BR>
on a date, say with Hidetoshi, and HE leaves a trail of my clothes from<BR>
the door to wherever we end up.  Nonetheless, I would not do this if I had<BR>
roomies.  And I clean them up the next day.<BR>
<BR>
Nudity doesn't mix with lots of things.  Like frying chicken.  Or gyoza.<BR>
Generally I prefer to cook with my clothes on.<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:20:02 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure [Oprah, OT, polygamy]<BR>
<BR>
Empress Kiri wrote:<BR>
> I haven't met many men who handle true polyandry real well.  I know, I've<BR>
> looked!  *^_^* Some men can tolerate their partner having a female lover,<BR>
> or having fun while they're away, or having "secondary" relationships that<BR>
> are heavily structured. <BR>
<BR>
Well, it's very rare that symmetrical polyandry can develop without going<BR>
thru an unbalanced (i.e. primary-secondary) stage (see the recent Gregg <BR>
Araki film, _Splendor_, for an instant symmetrical polyandry). <BR>
<BR>
For some women, it might be that watching their primary partner "retreat" <BR>
to the status of a co-equal would be interpreted as a sign of the primary <BR>
partner's loss or reduction of interest. I believe this was a factor in <BR>
the breakup of my marriage, actually.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, in a M-F-M situation, it would seem reasonable for one or <BR>
both of the males to seek additional partners, depending on how much <BR>
attention each individual happens to need ("she's got two lovers, why <BR>
do each of us get only one?"). Once this happens, I see too many <BR>
inputs to stabilize a symmetrical relationship (though I don't doubt <BR>
it could be juggled for an arbitrary amount of time). <BR>
<BR>
Having both males like each other a lot would help, I suppose, sexually <BR>
or not. But hey, if I can whip the other guy at Quake, I'm the alpha <BR>
male in the relationship, dammit. <BR>
<BR>
Gimme some sugar, baby.<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:30:12 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> > Traveller *really* needs a "101 social structures" supplement. But we'd<BR>
> > need a semi-professional anthropologist to help with examples and make<BR>
> > sure we didn't screw up too badly with regards to "consequences" of any<BR>
> > structures that have historical analogs.<BR>
> ><BR>
> That'd be a fun supplement to write.  Anyone else wanna?<BR>
<BR>
Hey, maybe I should try to get in on this.  After all, if I can sell my<BR>
Sociology professor on letting me get research paper credit for it, I<BR>
can kill two birds with one stone....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:27:08 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > I'd have to disagree with that.  Arbellatra isn't a standard-issue<BR>
> > woman.  She wouldn't be attracted to standard-issue men.  Therefore,<BR>
> > if she was married (and I use that term in the meaning of 'a<BR>
> > committed, long-term relationship') it would be to a non<BR>
> > standard-issue man.<BR>
> >  <BR>
> I guess the thing that bothers me about it is just the assumption that she<BR>
> would have been married.  We don't tend to make these assumptions about<BR>
> men. <BR>
<BR>
Aren't our contemporary and historical examples of royalty generally <BR>
expected and pressured to marry? How many US Presidents have been <BR>
unmarried?<BR>
<BR>
> Some people just never even think about getting married because they<BR>
> are too busy with other things.  We always assume that men are happy like<BR>
> that and that women are not.  I'd have had an easier life by far if I was<BR>
> that kind of person!<BR>
<BR>
A huge portion of our society expects people of status to get married. <BR>
It is definitely more respectable for men to remain unmarried:<BR>
<BR>
 "The connotations in these loaded words:<BR>
  A spinster and a bachelor"                    [1]<BR>
<BR>
...but we do expect our high-ranking males to marry, perhaps <BR>
even more than our high-ranking females. The nature of our <BR>
President's wife has always been significant, but no one cares <BR>
about Janet Reno's or Madeline Albright's (sp?) husbands.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Echobelly, "Father Ruler King Computer"<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:36:31 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2592 (aka: Deckplans)<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >Sheet 1 side A = Beowulf Deck A (Hexes)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Sheet 1 side B = Beowulf Deck A (Squares)<BR>
> <BR>
>   Great - but what if you have to stage a fight between two groups<BR>
> of PC's from different rules systems?                           :)<BR>
<BR>
Two groups, two sets.  What's the problem (for SJG, that is!)? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:14:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: FWD - UK Traveller - Leisure Games New Releases - 12th June 2000<BR>
<BR>
This may be of interest to UK/European Travellers ;-)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:49 +0100 13/6/00, Leisure Games wrote:<BR>
>Envelope-to: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com<BR>
>From: "Leisure Games" <shop@leisuregames.com><BR>
>New Releases Due To Be Delivered To Us On Wednesday afternoon 14th June<BR>
>(unless otherwise stated):<BR>
><BR>
>Title & brief description: Price: Publisher:<BR>
>101 Patrons<BR>
>(Traveller & GURPS Traveller)<BR>
>4.95<BR>
>BITS<BR>
><BR>
>At Close Quarters<BR>
>(Traveller & GURPS Traveller)<BR>
>4.95<BR>
>BITS<BR>
><BR>
>Angus Abranson<BR>
>Leisure Games<BR>
><BR>
>Tel: +44 (0)20 8346 2327<BR>
>Fax: +44 (0)20 8343 3888<BR>
>Web: www.leisuregames.com<BR>
>Web: www.leisuregames.co.uk<BR>
>E: shop@leisuregames.com<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:39:58 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
At 15:52 -0400 13/6/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
>Can we get an [Oprah] header or something like<BR>
>that to signal touchy-feely women-men stuff, please?<BR>
>Accidentally tripped into this thread and now I<BR>
>feel dirty.<BR>
>Mommy!  Mommy!<BR>
>bloo<BR>
>[snip . . . um . .  stuff]<BR>
<BR>
Do you know just how much Apple Extended Keyboards cost in the UK?<BR>
<BR>
Chalk a kill to Bloo.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:42:31 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2594<BR>
<BR>
At 15:52 -0400 13/6/00,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote:<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> > And the Terran Confederation ruled the former 1st Imperium by right of<BR>
> > conquest while Hiroshi I ruled both by right of fleet control.<BR>
><BR>
>You Know You've Been Reading TML Too Long When You Think:<BR>
><BR>
> "Was this before or after he and Kiri broke up?"<BR>
<BR>
I just recovered from Bloo's comments and you do this? Thank gawd I <BR>
didn't get a new keyboard!<BR>
<BR>
LoL<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:45:54 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
<BR>
At 17:17 -0400 13/6/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
> > Has anyone created a PDA readable version of the Mayday 4.1 PDF. Even ascii<BR>
> > text would be fine.<BR>
><BR>
>I missed it.  Where can I find this?<BR>
<BR>
BITS archive page<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:25:59 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
At 03:55 13.06.00, you wrote:<BR>
>As long as more than one person didn't make a claim;<BR>
<BR>
If the Emperor hadnt died, it wouldnt have mattered how many people made <BR>
a claim. The bureaucracy and military would have stood by the legitimate <BR>
Emperor.<BR>
If there had been a clear line of succession, by his wife or daughter, <BR>
there still wouldnt have been a problem. Only when more than one claimant <BR>
with NO clean line of succession appeared, trouble came. This is inherent <BR>
in any authoritarian regime, however. Just look at Syria, how fast <BR>
everybody is reactin to install Assads son as legitimate heir, for Assads <BR>
brother is already claiming to be the only rightful heir.<BR>
<BR>
>As long as a coup was quick (Dulinor was an idiot to think he could shoot<BR>
>the Emperor then leave Capital and be recognized);<BR>
<BR>
Dulinor did not plan to leave the way he did, but he had to flee, when <BR>
Imperial Trops prooved stronger than he had anticipated. Originally he <BR>
wanted to hold capital, but when that plan fell through, he had to flee...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:56:06 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob wrote<BR>
<BR>
>website...does this count?<BR>
<BR>
Fine by me - what's the URL?<BR>
<BR>
> The Angel Maxine...as the PC's not-so-immediate<BR>
superior...as a Deus Ex<BR>
> etc force with not so surplus military<BR>
surplus...saving PC butts then<BR>
> kicking them when necessary...lost her sight in the<BR>
Rockwar from a too<BR>
> close experience with a fusion pulse charge...still<BR>
blind, using suit<BR>
> sensors in combat...lotsa other details...<BR>
<BR>
Francine was one of those one line characters that gets<BR>
out of hand.<BR>
<BR>
> Oh yeah, the maitainence crew pop up from time to<BR>
time as well...<grin><BR>
<BR>
The Floozies. Way to go Old Sam.<BR>
<BR>
> What are Kaidatu's stats?<BR>
><BR>
One day I will sit down and do GURPS stats for Kadiatu<BR>
(and Roz for that matter)<BR>
I'll let you know when I've done them.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:40:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Strange Facilites (was Star Ship Quirks)<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, a "Turkish" toilet is even more "fun". From all accounts, it's<BR>
>basicly a *hole* in the floor, with a set of footprints outlined on<BR>
>either side (I assume for the benefit of tourists, so they know where<BR>
>to put their feet).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Was an Lt. stationed at Ft. Bliss in the late 70's.  Ft. Bliss was "duck<BR>
hunter training central" for ADA in the free world.  They had people in from<BR>
all over the world learning how to knock them down.  I remember one story<BR>
about some troopies  from the middle east whos home facilities were as the<BR>
above.  They thought that the shower hole was the appropriate place.<BR>
<BR>
Another time the folks scheduling training put the wrong folks in the same<BR>
class.  Seemed they must have figured that as the students were learning at<BR>
least in part how to knock down each others aircraft it they would have<BR>
something in common.  Not a good idea.  Wasn't as bad as putting Pakastani<BR>
and Indians in the same classroom, but almost so as if I remember correctly<BR>
they  were Greeks and Turks.<BR>
<BR>
A long those lines has anyone played a really perverse merc "training<BR>
ticket" where the subpot is that the students who are being trained to fight<BR>
a mutual foe are from two seperate groups who hate each other's guts?<BR>
<BR>
Daniel Raoul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:29:31 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
>Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote :<BR>
> Eris wrote:<BR>
> > Once complied into native machine code java programs are<BR>
> > reputedly as fast a C based programs.<BR>
<BR>
Just to really stir , it has been conclusively shown that for certain types<BR>
of program, interpreted languages are inherently faster than compiled<BR>
languages.<BR>
<BR>
This was one of the reasons for the creation of the UCSD P system back in<BR>
the early 80's<BR>
<BR>
> Not if the C programmer knows his/her job well enough...    *g*<BR>
><BR>
> Generic code cannot take full advantage of machine specific functions<BR>
> although good compilers can fix this problem to a degree).<BR>
<BR>
There are very few C programers who can write code that executes faster than<BR>
compiled Java,<BR>
and most of those are writing compilers themselves.<BR>
<BR>
These days C compilers come with warnings to not try and optimize your code<BR>
in anyway except algorithmically, because the sort of thing C programmers<BR>
used to do for speed will most likely make your program run slower, as the<BR>
compiler will have more difficulty properly optimizing it for the chip set.<BR>
<BR>
If the C programmer is really an assembler programmer with a good knowledge<BR>
of the pipe-lining architecture of the chip he's writing for, _and_ the<BR>
optimization strategies of the compiler he's using, then yes, maybe he could<BR>
write faster code.<BR>
<BR>
The question, of course, is are you willing to wait for the longer period of<BR>
time it will take for this programmer to write and debug the program and the<BR>
signififantly higher cost ?<BR>
And do you really need the small speed gain?<BR>
<BR>
As the services of such a programmer for a day are around $1500 or more,<BR>
it's ususally cheaper to throw more hardware at the problem if you need<BR>
speed.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the rant, but it's a pet subject of mine.<BR>
<BR>
Speed of execution of any particlar custom written programs is so rarely the<BR>
actual bottleneck in a system these days that I get very annoyed about<BR>
programmers spending lots of time trying to reduce their execution time by a<BR>
few milliseconds here & there, unless the requirements are given in<BR>
milliseconds, which for the majority of systems they are not.<BR>
<BR>
In almost all cases, poorly performing programs are caused by poor<BR>
algorithmic design, and code-level optimizations are insignificant, which<BR>
makes the difference between hand-writen C and compiled Java, if there<BR>
actually is one, to be nowhere near worth the cost differential.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
Let your characters have some shit-hot programmer write them a better<BR>
"Evasion" or "Anti-Hijack" routine. Charge them ten times (or more) the<BR>
price of the normal routine because it's custom software and shit-hot<BR>
programmers cost lots of money.<BR>
<BR>
Then next time they repair, upgrade, or replace the computer, tell them<BR>
their special software module works slower than the standard model because<BR>
it relied on hardware<BR>
efficiencies specific to the original model of computer.<BR>
<BR>
Let them try and get any remedy against the programmer, and he'll say "There<BR>
was no portability requirement when you commisioned the software".<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (rly-yg04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.4]) by air-yg01.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:25:26 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:25:05 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA56338;<BR>
	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:24:06 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:23:54 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA56297<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:23:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:23:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006132323.TAA56297@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2599</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/13/00 6:11:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2599<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
RE: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
RE: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
Re: Borrowed People<BR>
Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
RE: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
Re: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:58:30 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Transparent Overlays<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 10:34 PM,  "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Well if they are to scale with the standard hexes in the main GURPS<BR>
>rulebook then you can just photocopy that page onto a transparency. And<BR>
>If there is also a scale in metres and yards on the plans then you can<BR>
>design your own square overlays accurately for 1m 1.5m 2m 1yd 2yd etc.<BR>
>Just draw your own square grid to the appropriate scale an photocopy that<BR>
>onto a transparency.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't see the need for SJG to provide separate sheets/transparencies<BR>
>for *all* possible scales/formats in the Deckplan pack. It'll just add<BR>
>yet more to the cost. And you can guarantee that if they left out any<BR>
>given scale it would be the one you want to use <g><BR>
<BR>
Good points!  <BR>
<BR>
A few lines of directions, suggestions about where overlays could be made, where to buy battlemats, and such would be fine, I think.  I *would* like the plans to be printed to a standard scale, though.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:54:38 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 05:22 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> >The border grid marks could also indicate the relevant combat ranges, so<BR>
>> >that a straight edge would quickly tell you where something was close or<BR>
>> >short range.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, a note about ranges...<BR>
<BR>
Way back when I was doing a lot of FTF Traveller with minitures (and counters too for that matter), I made a little device for just this purpose. <BR>
<BR>
I attached a piece of white yarn to a pair of old fashion clothespins, then marked it with 1 meter dots. Then I colored lengths of it different colors for the different ranges.  To measure range I put a pin on one end,  rolled the yarn around  the other until it was tight at the other end, and counted the dots.  For ranges, I didn't have to count, just note the colors showing.  Distances from point to point could also be measured by laying the yarn down on the table along the path.<BR>
<BR>
Now days, I have stopped being so AR about such things. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:18:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
Here's my rant on the effectivenss of PD<BR>
<BR>
The only way PD will _remain_ effective is if the people using it have good<BR>
nuclear dampers, and/or the people using the artillery don't have or for<BR>
some reason can't use, any nukes.<BR>
<BR>
A single nuke will burn out all your PD sensors, including LIDAR, long<BR>
enough to dump lots of normal artillery rounds on the target.<BR>
<BR>
As the nuke is not being used against an actual target, it's just being set<BR>
off, probably exo-atmopspheric,it will avoid military nuke usage bans in the<BR>
same way that Paul Atreides did in Dune.<BR>
<BR>
Another problem with point defence is that it can be overloaded by large<BR>
numbers of incoming shells and decoys, and if physical ,it represents a<BR>
_huge_ drain on the defender's supply train.<BR>
<BR>
How many seconds of fire does a GAU75 have before it either heats up too<BR>
much to fire or you have to reload ? Sure, cooling will get better, and<BR>
emplaced point defense can stockpile lots of rounds, but there will still be<BR>
a limit on "physical" PD.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that under Traveller you can use lasers for the job, because<BR>
Traveller lasers and power supplies are just far too good to be true, but<BR>
even there, compare the cost of supplying such lasers compared to the cost<BR>
of buying a regiment of artillery.<BR>
<BR>
When talking about well-equipped Imperial Marines taking on planetary<BR>
governments, maybe they can ignore artillery because they're being paid for<BR>
by more than one world !<BR>
<BR>
But for combat between planetary governments, if one government spends it's<BR>
budget on PD lasers, the opposing government could field so much more other<BR>
lower TL equipment that the PD lasers will probably prove to be an<BR>
albatross.<BR>
<BR>
Another point, unless the defender can afford so much PD that they can cover<BR>
their _entire_ infrastructure with it ( in which case, you'd be bloody silly<BR>
to try and attack them!), then artillery will still be useful for hitting<BR>
undefended physical targets, denying transport capability, and general<BR>
infrastucture attacks.<BR>
<BR>
As artillery at high TL will probably include man-portable miniaturized<BR>
howitzers, similar in size and weight to todays 2" mortars, but with the<BR>
punch of a 105mm pack how or more , complete with all the same targetting<BR>
capabilities of the PD, heres's a plan of attack.<BR>
<BR>
Firstly, your spec forcs get in position to eliminate the PD batteries by<BR>
massed direct fire of man-portable howitzers from extreme close range, say a<BR>
hundred or so feet, or even just by placing satchel charges on the power<BR>
supplies.<BR>
<BR>
PD can't be set to operate at close range or it is more of a danger to it's<BR>
own forces than the enemy. If a single shot from an ATR or equivalent at<BR>
ground level is enough to unleash laser fire in the direction of the shot,<BR>
then infiltrators could have a field day using the enemy's PD to shoot at<BR>
itself. If it isn't, then that angle of attack becomes a weakness in the PD.<BR>
<BR>
Then your artillery hits the supply routes to prevent any more PD being<BR>
brought into the area before your attack goes in, then we continue with<BR>
normal artillery barrage against troops that, with luck, aren't as dug in as<BR>
they should be, because they're relying on their PD.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously the above _could_ be countered in many ways, but the idea of<BR>
eliminating the "covering fire" before the attack is as old as bombards, and<BR>
saying that PD neccessarily makes artillery ineffective is similar to the<BR>
claims about the Titanic being unsinkable.<BR>
<BR>
In fact it's worse, because PD _is_ artillery, just a specialized use of it,<BR>
so perhaps what we'll see is duels between opposing PD systems targetting<BR>
each other while the normal artillery flies overhead unhindered !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:11:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
Also - say two charactors get hitched during a campain - are they going to<BR>
have to pay char points for the new found ally?<BR>
<BR>
I would have to put my hat into the ring of the externals cost, internals do<BR>
not camp - I can see why a literial reading of the rules might be construed<BR>
to mean the other way, however, comma, I cannot see how adding that<BR>
complexity would add value to the system at all - in fact I could see how it<BR>
might detract from it - say a PC joins the party - every now has a new ally,<BR>
and has to pay points for them out of the hard earned experince that they<BR>
have been saving for one more point of health..<BR>
<BR>
IMGG we will not be paying for allys that are PC's. ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Samuel D.<BR>
Weiss<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 10:31 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote,<BR>
>Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
Suppose that my character takes a NPC 100 point husband appearing<BR>
on a 15-. She has to pay 15 points for this advantage. By contrast<BR>
suppose that Bob and Sue decide that their 100 point player<BR>
characters are married and always together. They effectively<BR>
have the the same 100 point ally appearing on a 15- for free<BR>
that my charecter had to pay 15 points for. I think that this<BR>
is unjust and in violation of the stated GURPS rules (see<BR>
below). If the GURPS rules require me to pay for my charecters<BR>
advantage than so should Bob and Sue. YMMV.<<BR>
<BR>
By this logic, you should charge every player for every other player in the<BR>
group since their characters will be showing up and (almost certainly) be<BR>
helping out on a regular basis. That utterly defies any logic in the game.<BR>
Further, you are "assuming facts not in evidence" by asking what if one<BR>
player leaves the group giving the other a free NPC. Why have you decided<BR>
one player will be leaving before you even start? Granted I have been in<BR>
groups that aren't all that stable in terms of members or appearance on game<BR>
days, but this is a bit extreme.<BR>
And what about Disadvantage points for having "forced" feelings for another<BR>
character? Why shouldn't the players now insist that they get each other as<BR>
DNPCs under your system?<BR>
If players want to establish a role-playing background to their characters<BR>
like this I would do anything but discourage it by charging them for the<BR>
"privilege". And if you are that worried about one player leaving, just say<BR>
the two characters get a divorce.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:18:03 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> >Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote :<BR>
> > Eris wrote:<BR>
> > > Once complied into native machine code java programs are<BR>
> > > reputedly as fast a C based programs.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just to really stir , it has been conclusively shown that for certain types<BR>
> of program, interpreted languages are inherently faster than compiled<BR>
> languages.<BR>
<BR>
Do you have a citation for this claim? It seems to me that any interpretation<BR>
can be no better timewise than a compile plus an execution, and given my <BR>
definitions for these words, what you just said seems nonsensical. <BR>
<BR>
Note that Eris's quote was regarding compiled Java.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:26:26 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Other Rob wrote<BR>
><BR>
> >website...does this count?<BR>
><BR>
> Fine by me - what's the URL?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
http://web.one.net.au/~rhoughto/trinity.html<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:25:41 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
To: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>;<BR>
<traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 2:27:am<BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I neglected to mention that non-starship plans are on the list for<BR>
> consideration, and I am soliciting suggestions for those as well.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
A set of office suites ("steal into Jone's office and find that file...")?<BR>
<BR>
Generic shops ("You went into the nick-nack shop to see what they had, and<BR>
you notice that bloke from the sports store - the one that was watching<BR>
you - well, he seems to be pulling a handgun with a silence on it...")?<BR>
<BR>
Medical facility, labs and/or hospital ("They are obviously experimenting on<BR>
Bruce and you should get him out of there...")?<BR>
<BR>
Military facility ("This is the place you served in before mustering - or<BR>
one like it, so you know where to go and who to see...")?<BR>
<BR>
Prison facility (An old one)?<BR>
<BR>
A Powerplant or dam?<BR>
<BR>
FASA I think did a Hotel/Office-like plan set (with hotel rooms, offices,<BR>
cafes, carpark, etc.) that was quite handy from time to time, perhaps<BR>
something like that again?<BR>
<BR>
As for non-starships, how about deckplans of boats (pleasure boats,<BR>
half-cabin, cabin, and yatch) or a cruise ship (the Love Boat... soon will<BR>
be making another run... errrr, <ahem> sorry...) and not forgetting military<BR>
vessels.  And what about passanger airliners and trains (once had my<BR>
adventurers fly across a world by local airlines for several gaming sessions<BR>
chasing a villain, had to draw my own plans for that!  Did the same for a<BR>
continental train ride they had to make also)?<BR>
<BR>
And they are just some that I can think of...<BR>
<BR>
> I have asked for a cost study of printing the sheets on both sides, square<BR>
> grind on one side, hexes on the other.<BR>
<BR>
And life was good...<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:23:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
>Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
>contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. I personally think that you're missing the very point of the<BR>
point system. As a result the balance of your games, assuming you run them,<BR>
will be in serious jeopardy. What you've done is taken a sentence from a<BR>
paragraph which was intended to provide an explanation for why player<BR>
characters are not randomly generated in GURPS and have turned it into much<BR>
more than it was intended.<BR>
<BR>
>Suppose that my character takes a NPC 100 point husband appearing<BR>
>on a 15-. She has to pay 15 points for this advantage. By contrast<BR>
>suppose that Bob and Sue decide that their 100 point player<BR>
>characters are married and always together. They effectively<BR>
>have the the same 100 point ally appearing on a 15- for free<BR>
>that my charecter had to pay 15 points for.<BR>
<BR>
No they don't. Bob and Sue are Bob and Sue. They are real people playing in<BR>
the game. The NPC which you've bought through the Ally disadvantage is not<BR>
the avatar of a real person in the game. It is an NPC which has been called<BR>
into existence to aid your character, and hence is an advantage over the<BR>
other players' characters.<BR>
<BR>
>I think that this is unjust and in violation of the stated GURPS rules (see<BR>
>below).<BR>
<BR>
No. It is not unjust. Players have the freedom to do with their characters<BR>
what they will, unless they are bound by certain disadvantages. That's the<BR>
whole point of roleplaying. If Bob and Sue decide that they're going to play<BR>
a married couple who always have each others' backs, that's their choice.<BR>
They are both taking on the responsibility of playing this sort of<BR>
character.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with your take on the ally advantage is that it micromanages<BR>
what the players can and can't do to an absurd degree. For example, the<BR>
coarse Ally advantage is clearly intended to supply an NPC sidekick for a<BR>
player character. There is no doubt that this is the intent; the text<BR>
explains it and the mechanics involved support it.<BR>
<BR>
To demand that player characters pay character points in order to merely<BR>
adventure together (and keep in mind that's precisely what you're doing) has<BR>
all sorts of immediately visible problems. For example, all player<BR>
characters in an adventuring group, under your logic, would have to pay to<BR>
adventure with each other. After all, in the vast majority of sessions and<BR>
campaigns the player characters act cooperatively toward a common goal.<BR>
Since all characters will appear nearly every session, all player characters<BR>
would have to pay 15 points just to play in your campaign.<BR>
<BR>
I don't see the point of such an activity.<BR>
<BR>
>If the GURPS rules require me to pay for my charecters<BR>
>advantage than so should Bob and Sue. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Okay. I do have some things I want to ask you. Actually, I've been dying to<BR>
ask since your MegaTraveller discussion. I thought that it would be a really<BR>
gauche question at the time. I still think that it is sort of tasteless, but<BR>
my curiosity has gotten the better of me. Do you actually run games? If you<BR>
do, do people actually play for more than a few sessions?<BR>
<BR>
One of the central points of your argument has been what seems to be the<BR>
foregone conclusion that one player or the other may leave after a few<BR>
sessions, which would push the player character into non-player character<BR>
status. Indeed, you've mentioned this twice now in this  thread to justify<BR>
your bizarre interpretation of the ally advantage.<BR>
<BR>
>They have the same thing that my charecter had to pay 15 points<BR>
>for, a 100 point Ally on a 15-. The only difference between<BR>
>Sue's husband and my husband is that my NPC husband is played<BR>
>by the GM and Sue's husband is played by Bob. If Bob quits the<BR>
>campaign after a few weeks and Bob's charecter remains as an NPC<BR>
>than there will be no difference between my charecter and Sue's.<BR>
>Why on earth should Sue get an advantage I had to pay 15 points<BR>
>for for free?<BR>
<BR>
So, instead of doing the reasonable thing, which would be to charge Sue the<BR>
points if she decided she wanted to keep Bob's character in the campaign as<BR>
an NPC, you charge her points for a situation which might happen several<BR>
sessions down the line.<BR>
<BR>
The flaws in this logic are extremely dangerous. It is possible that Sue's<BR>
character may end up with a starship later on in the campaign. I guess that<BR>
you should charge her character for the ship patron advantage. Sue's<BR>
character may acquire more skill in medicine a couple sessions down the<BR>
line. Again, you should charge her now.<BR>
<BR>
I really don't see the logic in charging a player's character for something<BR>
that might happen. Even worse, I don't see the logic in charging a player's<BR>
character for something which would most likely out of their own control.<BR>
<BR>
>> Then you're being unreasonable and you're actively breaking the system by<BR>
>> not taking into account how the system was meant to be used. Anybody who<BR>
>> knew GURPS before going into your campaign would be unlikely to play<BR>
after<BR>
>> such a stunt. Anybody who learned what GURPS was about after starting to<BR>
>> play would feel like you were actively trying to screw them over by<BR>
>> underpowering their character.<BR>
><BR>
>Assumes facts not in evidence.<BR>
<BR>
Not really.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't think you know what "Anybody who knew GURPS" would feel.<BR>
<BR>
In this case I do. Before you become enmeshed in threads of pedantic<BR>
argument, I will clarify my statement: Expand the above to "any individual<BR>
who has a knowledge of GURPS and the cognitive ability to understand how the<BR>
mechanics are supposed to work together". This is what I meant and I thought<BR>
that it was abundantly clear from the context of my post. Apparently, I<BR>
hadn't counted on the Peter Newman method of interpretation.<BR>
<BR>
>If you were to say that "Many people who knew GURPS" would<BR>
>feel that this was a stunt you might well be right. However<BR>
>all this would mean is that those other GURPS players were<BR>
>wrongly reading stated GURPS design. (see below)<BR>
<BR>
The unfortunate part is that you believe this (see below).<BR>
<BR>
>So you are saying that GURPS is specifically designed to give<BR>
>an unfair advantage to player charecters by giving them free<BR>
>Allies that NPC's would have to pay points for?<BR>
<BR>
Not really. I've already said precisely what GURPS is designed to do already<BR>
in the post to which your post was a response:<BR>
<BR>
"The point system is intended to balance player characters, of this there<BR>
can be little doubt or little misunderstanding... The very point of<BR>
balancing player characters on the same scale is an attempt to ensure that<BR>
each player character gets a fair amount of 'screen time' and is equally<BR>
important to the game. NPCs, that is to say characters which are used by the<BR>
GM for a specific purpose, don't really get offended or feel left out when<BR>
they are not equally balanced with player characters."<BR>
<BR>
>This is not how I read GURPS, which clearly states:<BR>
><BR>
>"Skills and Advantages cost points." "The GURPS system is<BR>
>balanced. All 100 point charecters start off "equivalent,"<BR>
>though not the same."<BR>
><BR>
>GURPS 3rd Ed Rev p 11. (Character Creation)<BR>
<BR>
Dirty pool, Mr. Newman, dirty pool. One of the great things about the<BR>
English language is that a context is required. Sentences pick up meaning<BR>
thanks to words placed in a certain sort of context. Paragraphs pick up<BR>
meaning thanks to sentences placed in a certain context with each other.<BR>
Sections of text pick up meaning thanks to paragraphs placed in a certain<BR>
context with each other.<BR>
<BR>
In the first eighty years of that century, the emperors were all hand-picked<BR>
successors of their sonless predecessors. In my opinion, McLuhan, whose<BR>
metier was hyperbole, is far from exaggerating the case here. At the time,<BR>
the Spanish Civil War hardly looked like a good omen for the defeat of<BR>
fascism. It is hard, for example, to think of a historical work that is more<BR>
multicultural than that of Herodotus.<BR>
<BR>
That last paragraph doesn't make much sense, does it? It wasn't intended to.<BR>
I grabbed some books at arm's length and picked random sentences and<BR>
liberated them from their context and placed them in a new one. The same<BR>
thing works in reverse as well.<BR>
<BR>
The sentences you picked are from the section "Creating a Character". The<BR>
paragraph it makes up a large portion of comes directly after a series of<BR>
paragraphs (the series starts with the paragraph which starts "One thing<BR>
should be understood before you go on."). The paragraph you quoted from was<BR>
put to a different use than the one you've put it too. Instead of being a<BR>
paragraph which dispels fears that the GURPS character creation system,<BR>
since it is not random, creates cookie cutter characters, you cite it as<BR>
being one which explains the whole of the GURPS design philosophy. It isn't.<BR>
<BR>
The design philosophy of a game can be discovered in one way and one way<BR>
only: You have to look at the pieces of the puzzle and see how the mechanics<BR>
are intended to work together. The text, at various points, clearly points<BR>
out that alternate methods may be used to design NPCs. Hell, there's<BR>
something to that effect right on the page you quoted from. There's another<BR>
later in the book. This would seem to point to the notion that balancing<BR>
NPCs is not of the same import. Indeed, it is suggested by the rules that a<BR>
good way to generate many NPCs is to use the random character generation<BR>
system, which kicks balance out the door.<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, at various points, the text suggests that the random character<BR>
generation system should not be used for player characters and that player<BR>
characters should be based on the 100 point character model. This would seem<BR>
to point to the notion that player character balance is of importance.<BR>
<BR>
Now, there are people who think about the challenges of providing balance<BR>
for the player characters. I happen to be one of those people, although I<BR>
have yet to come up with a working system (GURPS is good, but not perfect,<BR>
there is one minor flaw which irks the heck out of me, unrelated to this<BR>
discussion). The problem in character balance is one of player character<BR>
balance. A player with too little to do in a gaming session can be<BR>
disruptive, and I don't necessarily mean intentionally. Players who have too<BR>
little to do may become fidgety, unattentive, they may strike up<BR>
conversations with other players who have too little to do. They may get<BR>
annoyed because they've set aside time in their busy scheduled to sit there<BR>
and be ignored. They may even make X-Wing fighters out of paperclips and<BR>
beam loudly to the other players when you're in the middle of reading a<BR>
description aloud.<BR>
<BR>
The issue of game balance, throughout the history of roleplaying games, has<BR>
never been an issue of balancing non-player characters with player<BR>
characters. This is a simple enough task for anyone who knows how the<BR>
mechanics work individually. What I mean by that is, if you want to balance<BR>
an NPC for combat against the PCs, a basic understanding of how combat works<BR>
is all that is required. If you want an NPC to be able to barter better than<BR>
the PCs, a basic understanding of how related skills work is all that is<BR>
required.<BR>
<BR>
However, the issue of player character balance is the only real important<BR>
issue because it is the only one with real consequences. Since NPCs are<BR>
non-player characters, there is no player behind them to become fidgety,<BR>
talk, or announce the completion of their model shipbuilding.<BR>
<BR>
>To me this clearly establishes the base design intent of the<BR>
>GURPS system. I believe that allowing PC's to take other<BR>
>PC's as free allies is an abuse of the stated intent of<BR>
>the GURPS system. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Well, as I've stated, I think that you're taking two sentences out of the<BR>
context they were originally in and using them to support a ruling which is<BR>
genuinely unfair and unjust. It doesn't appear that there's any reason to<BR>
read those two sentences in the way you have.<BR>
<BR>
>> Then you misunderstand why the point system is there at all.<BR>
><BR>
>To balance all characters, both PC's and NPC's.<BR>
<BR>
I still sincerely think that you're missing the point.<BR>
<BR>
>The text clearly states, as I quoted above "All 100 point charecters<BR>
>start off "equivalent," though not the same." It does not say<BR>
>that "All 100 point _player_ charecters start off "equivalent"..."<BR>
>it says that "All _charecters_" start off "equivalent"...." Non<BR>
>player charecters are charecters and as such they are bound by<BR>
>this basic statement of GURPS design philosophy. YMMV but if this<BR>
>is not the explicit intent of GURPS why would it say _all_ characters?<BR>
<BR>
First, it isn't the basic design philosophy. Second, it does *not* say what<BR>
you're saying it says here. You are actively pulling an even smaller bit out<BR>
of context to support the ruling you've invented.<BR>
<BR>
The sentence you are referring to does *not* say that "All characters" start<BR>
off "'equivalent'...". It says all 100 point characters start off<BR>
equivalent, though not the same. Leaving off the last bit changes the whole<BR>
meaning of the sentence, especially given the context the sentence sits in.<BR>
Leaving out the 100 point designation changes the whole meaning of the<BR>
sentence, especially given the context the sentence sits in. To say that all<BR>
characters start off equivalent is not the same thing as saying, "All 100<BR>
point characters start out equivalent, though not the same".<BR>
<BR>
It certainly does not say the same as, "All characters must start out at the<BR>
same level, for balance between player characters and non-player<BR>
characters", which is what you seem to be saying.<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, I don't see the point here, actually.<BR>
><BR>
>To balance the charecter sheets of course.<BR>
<BR>
Ach! I was completely off. Not only do you not understand the intent of the<BR>
GURPS character creation system, you don't understand the point of the hobby<BR>
of roleplaying. There's a reason that games such as these are referred to as<BR>
"roleplaying games", not "character sheet balancing".<BR>
<BR>
>I have thought about it ahead of time and I see it as the clear<BR>
>stated design intent of GURPS to balance all 100 point characters.<BR>
>To allow players to egregiously abuse that stated design intent would<BR>
>be a mockery of the whole system. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if you're able to find players who will put up with such manhandling<BR>
of the system, go for it.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:24:33 -0400<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, you wrote:<BR>
> Speed of execution of any particlar custom written programs is so rarely the<BR>
> actual bottleneck in a system these days that I get very annoyed about<BR>
> programmers spending lots of time trying to reduce their execution time by a<BR>
> few milliseconds here & there, unless the requirements are given in<BR>
> milliseconds, which for the majority of systems they are not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The exception being embedded systems with limited resources.  Then you really do<BR>
need the programmers that can write optimized C code, with the ability to<BR>
modify the assembly code when necessary.  Some compilers don't optimize very <BR>
well under certain circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
Of course you could always write the code in assembly (he he..)<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:30:02 -0400<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
> Speed of execution of any particlar custom written programs is so rarely the<BR>
> actual bottleneck in a system these days that I get very annoyed about<BR>
> programmers spending lots of time trying to reduce their execution time by a<BR>
> few milliseconds here & there, unless the requirements are given in<BR>
> milliseconds, which for the majority of systems they are not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Just for the record, for most software written for PC's I would agree with you.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:39:20 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Click here for Free Video!!<BR>
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 5:45:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>   Instead include a couple of A4<BR>
> sheets of hexes and squares.  These two sheets *could* be clear<BR>
> plastics, or just good strong copyable paper.  Almost all of us have<BR>
> access *somewhere* to a copy machine that can copy to clear plastic<BR>
> overlays.  We can make the overlays as we need them, mark on them,<BR>
> erase them, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
Trouble with this is, is that not every buyer is on this list to see the<BR>
logic behind it.  That means that young Mr Not-connected or Mr Non-TML'er<BR>
will see the product as lacking ("Look how slack these bastards are, I paid<BR>
$40 [the rough Aussie equivalent to $US20] for these plans and they tell me<BR>
*I* have to make my own clear grid/hex!  How LOUSY is that!??!")<BR>
<BR>
So, unless the majority of purchasers live on this list, it's probably a bad<BR>
move for SJG, image-wise?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:49:30 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 04:43 PM,  "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>> Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
>> contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
<BR>
>Eris, get a bottle of champagne. Truly it is a great day for Heresy!<BR>
<BR>
Ah, there's no reason for celebration.  It's just Peter off on one<BR>
of his wild hares!  <eg><BR>
<BR>
I've given up trying to decide whether he actually believes all<BR>
these things he comes up with.  First, Peter is a strict<BR>
constructionist with his reading of MT rules and now he favors a<BR>
liberal interpretation of GURPS rules.  Instead of taking the letter<BR>
of the law, he is appealing to the spirit of the law, even going as<BR>
far as to say the rules themselves are in error when they vary from<BR>
the spirit (as he sees it).<BR>
<BR>
<sarcasm> Personally, I applaud his flexibility.  It makes me all<BR>
goosepimplly!  </sarcasm><BR>
<BR>
IAC, heretics like me believe the books (any of them) are guides<BR>
filled with suggestions to assist us with our roleplaying, not books<BR>
of law to be strictly enforced.  All we are concerned with is the<BR>
spirit of the game.  We don't get into arguments about whether<BR>
leaving the word "all" out of a sentence does/doesn't imply that<BR>
NPC's are to be balanced with PC's.  Wargames, yes.  Board games,<BR>
yes, Roleplaying games, no.<BR>
<BR>
Shoot, taking the big picture, I consider party balance to be a<BR>
guideline, not a requirement, anyway.  If I was running a GRUPS<BR>
game I wouldn't care if someone in the party spent 88 points and<BR>
someone else spent 112.  I'd encourage each of the players to<BR>
produce a character that was interesting and fun both to play and to<BR>
play with, and I'd JSN (just say no) to character proposals that<BR>
didn't work within the campaign and/or group.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, people *aren't* balanced and trying to mechanically balance<BR>
them down to the last point is just being AR (anal retentive).<BR>
Mechanical solutions, can provide some guidance, but in the final<BR>
analysis giving appropriate screen time to all the PC's and judging<BR>
opponent levels is best left to the GM. <BR>
<BR>
And naturally, all this is IMO and YMMV,<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    the Heretic<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:55:45 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
On 06/14/00 at 10:39 AM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Trouble with this is, is that not every buyer is on this list to see the<BR>
>logic behind it.  That means that young Mr Not-connected or Mr Non-TML'er<BR>
>will see the product as lacking ("Look how slack these bastards are, I<BR>
>paid $40 [the rough Aussie equivalent to $US20] for these plans and they<BR>
>tell me *I* have to make my own clear grid/hex!  How LOUSY is that!??!")<BR>
<BR>
>So, unless the majority of purchasers live on this list, it's probably a<BR>
>bad move for SJG, image-wise?<BR>
<BR>
<shrug> So, include a couple of A4 sized overlays and a sheet of paper with suggestions about making copies if you want more or other scales. I wouldn't feel gyped. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:50:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
At 01:37 PM 6/13/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Traveller *really* needs a "101 social structures" supplement. But we'd<BR>
>> need a semi-professional anthropologist to help with examples and make<BR>
>> sure we didn't screw up too badly with regards to "consequences" of any<BR>
>> structures that have historical analogs.<BR>
>> <BR>
>That'd be a fun supplement to write.  Anyone else wanna?<BR>
<BR>
Count me in.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2599<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (rly-ye03.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.200]) by air-ye04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:11:18 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:10:51 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA60923;<BR>
	Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:09:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:09:18 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA60882<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:09:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:09:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200006140109.VAA60882@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2599<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
